What do you get if you mix the Jeremy Kyle show with Question Time? Channel 5 tried to find out this evening in a one-off debate about welfare called the Big Benefits Row.  I was one of the 25 – yes, 25 – guests they asked along. Matthew Wright tried to keep the order, and the debate ranged (or, rather, raged) from the morality of benefits for immigrants to high MTR rates for welfare. It was more of a verbal explosion than a debate – you’d have working single mums screaming (‘give me a job, innit!’) at benefit-dependent single mum. Edwina Currie baiting the lefties, with visible enjoyment. Even a mini protest (‘every mum’s a working mum’) and Katie Hopkins who, with her ‘they’re all scroungers!’ message, wound up the audience perfectly. And Jack Monroe, her of the austerity recipe fame, who was admonished for using the f-word. It was kind of political panto.

Even Peter Stringfellow was present — in his capacity as a pensioner on benefits. He was very keen to touch the hem of Rachel Johnson, there as she’d recently spent a week living on £1 a day and has (as she put it) “friends with benefits”. The ex-Guardian journalist, Sarfraz Manzoor, was there to heckle Katie Hopkins and just when you though the evening couldn’t get more bizarre, up pops Terry Christian (ex-The Word) to stick the knife into Ms Hopkins as well. Margot James, a Tory MP and member of the 10 Downing Street policy group, was watching all this, open-mouthed, from the front row.

But the star of the evening, for my money, was White Dee. She was then, as she is in Benefits Street, calm, articulate and funny — and making more sense than the rest of the guests put together. When the show closed, everyone came to to her asking for autographs and taking selfies. I sat beside her during the first part of the show and she  said that she was a Spectator reader (all the best people are) and that she liked our coverage of the Benefits Street debate.

I’m not sure what we learned, given the many angles the topic was approached from – and the brave attempt to mix the Jerry Springer-style fights with the likes of myself jabbering on about marginal tax withdrawal rates (audio below).


But one thing’s for sure: after years of being an incredibly dull policy area, welfare reform is now one of the hottest topics in Britain. It is capable of breaking out of the normal confines of Westminster debate, and into a wider realm where wilder beasts roam and many more millions pay attention. And where poll after poll (including one taken for the show) makes clear that the public still backs reforms – still, that is, on the side of the government.

PS: Here’s the point I was trying to make. White Dee doesn’t work because if she found part-time work and wanted to increase her hours, she’d find herself trapped in a system that would, in effect, tax her at 100 per cent for the work that she does. There is so much poverty in Britain because we have destroyed the economic function of work for the low-paid. Below is the Marginal Deduction Rate (i.e., benefits withdrawn, as a percentage of money earned) for someone in White Dee’s situation (i.e., a lone mother with two children).

PPS: The Big Benefits Row drew in 1.3 million viewers, almost twice that of Newsnight. Expect to see Stringfellow on BBC2 any day now…

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Katie Hopkins will be speaking at the next Spectator debate ‘A liberal arts education is a waste of time and money’ with Anthony Seldon, Julia Hobsbawm, Harry Cole and Doug Richard  on 4 March. Click here to book tickets.

Tags: Benefits Street, Matthew Wright, White Dee