Coffee House

Would the migrant crisis have happened without the EU?

3 February 2016

2:21 PM

3 February 2016

2:21 PM

For those people already bored with the interminable European question, Radio 4 might get unbearable over the next few months. Yesterday morning the subject was being discussed, in the context of David Cameron’s ‘deal’, and someone from Brussels was explaining that ‘more Europe’ was needed to solve the migrant/refugee crisis.

She never got to explain further what was meant by this, but isn’t it actually the case that the migrant crisis is related to the EU? For example, would Greece face a wave of 62,000 illegal migrants a month were it just an independent country that had its own borders and a government with responsibility towards its citizens?

The inherent weakness of the European financial system is that it has monetary union but not fiscal union; this is the worst of both worlds. It allows individual states to be as reckless and incompetent as they like without bearing the cost alone, which is instead shared: i.e. Daddy in Berlin will settle the bill. This is what happened with Greece in particular, which should not have been allowed into the Eurozone but was, for political and historical reasons. The Eurozone probably needs full fiscal union, but to make such a large step would have been politically unpopular, and too much of a leap for an institution that used the Monnet method.

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Likewise EU migrant policy is a disaster because it is only as strong as its weakest states; free movement within the union would work fine only so long as the external border was strong, and only so long as the Union had one common authority that chose who got to live here. It’s like a group of flats that knock down their internal partitions to create a house share, only for one member to hold the world’s largest Facebook party.

You cannot have a club in which any members can simply invite anyone else they like to join and everyone else has to foot the bill. Likewise if the large number of migrants arriving every day in Italy were going to stay in Italy, not head north, Italy would do something about it.

Italy is the eighth largest economy on earth, and the migrants coming to Europe are not an invading force or part of the inevitable march in history; they come because the incentives to cross vastly outweigh the relatively small risk of death and very small chance of refusal. In states where the odds of being refused entry are large, such as in Australia, the migrant exodus dries up very quickly, as people respond to incentives. A Europe in which the European Union did not exist, and in which each state managed its own migration policy, would not have the crisis we now face.

I’m not suggesting that this would be ideal; in fact the European Union probably needs to move ahead and centralise its system of migration, asylum and border control, or it will fall apart. I wish them good luck with that, but to do this it needs to move ahead with only the members who are ready for such a leap. That’s the problem with any ‘deal’ David Cameron might get – it would only slow the EU down, when it needs to move ahead.

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Show comments
  • Jacobi

    There would have been an attempt by Islamic strategists to increase religious migration. It has been going on for some time. The Moelenbeek/ Scharebeek regions of Brussels were Caliphate in the early 80s and parts of France also were “no go “ at that time.

    But the EU and in particular the Schengen arrangement have been used by Islamic strategists. The distance from Turkey to Schengen, that is at Lesbos is circa 12 km. Even the dumbest strategist would have spotted that.

    The crass invitation by Merkel for Islam to come into Europe must have been seen as an act of
    God by these strategists. It has incidently dealt a fatal blow to the EU, which is now finished, but that is another matter.

    Now I suppose the charge will be raised that some people see conspiracy everywhere. Well it is everywhere, usually ineffective, admittedly. But the current massive influx of Islam into a secularised and decaying Western society is planned and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding himself!

  • evad666
  • Maureen Fisher

    What is most interesting is those two Nordic models of “tolerance and diversity” lauded by all luvvies of the left, Sweden and Finland, want to throw out around a 100,000 “asylum seekers” and the Finnish Prime Minister has declared he doesn’t want the ethnic and cultural identity of his country changed into something resembling the Middle East.

  • kevin foy

    When the Saudi’s (who have built their own wall to keep Syrians out) offered to help the refugee crisis by paying for Mosques in Europe, that was there of way saying everything Europe believes in is a joke. Enoch Powell thought we were mad literally mad in the 70’s, that’s nothing compared what’s happening now, and this is just the beginning. What Merkel has set in motion, has no historical precedent, you have to go the Bible for this stuff, it’s biblical!

    • Maureen Fisher

      The Saudis have also declared the Syrians a security risk!

  • Old Fox

    So let it fall apart and let Europe – the real Europe – return to the sanity of responsible government. The warning lights are flashing red but there is still time to salvage much – if we act now. For the good of Europe, Britain must leave the bureaucrats flat and encourage other nations to reclaim their independence and their liberty, too. Brexit could be the first clarion call of a popular revolt all over the continent, if only we have the guts to get on with it.

  • sayoko3

    This might come as a surprise to you, but the Navies of all Europe are actually bringing migrants to Italy. The British Navy has done this as well. Sometimes they go right off the LYBIAN coast to take migrants, just to dump them in Italy! In Italy we lost sovereignty many years ago (ever heard of Gladio? Moro’s death?) and now we’re ruled by ignorant and corrupt people. So you really cannot expect Italy to solve any problem. What you should do as British people is this: pressure Bruxelles and Germany (which is controlling the EU, along with its handlers in Washington) until they stop the flow of migrants to Italy & Greece. Because if you don’t, they will come to you.

    • Jacobi

      It is no surprise. The penny simply has not yet dropped with our polititians or rather they might be afraid to let it drop.
      Sooner or later we will come round to accepting the need for internment, yes, internment in controlled camps guarded by a highly sophisticated Gendarmerie. These religious immigrants will have to be rounded up interned and returned.
      It will be difficult I know but there is no alternative.

    • Catherine Anders

      Are you Italian? I read that the Italian Mafia are making huge profits by controlling refugee camps on Italian territory, and even compelling refugee women to prostitute themselves. I wouldn’t be surprised if your politicians were in cahoots with the mob to bring these people in so they can exploit them.

  • Franky

    The British response to the migrant crisis is correct. Spend the money on the refugee camps themselves. Furthermore, young men

    entering Europe from Syria should be immediately transported to new camps close to, or within Syria itself, where they should be trained to fight under British direction.

    It is amazing to see so many young men claiming refugee status. In the past it was women, children and old people. Now it is young, fit and ambitious men. Something is wrong here.

  • StringyJack

    I have a theory that might explain this. In the US, Australia and to a lesser extent, Britain, the state exists to serve and protect its citizens. However, on the continent: the EU, Russia and China; the state owns its citizens, who exist to serve and protect it. The EU and some of its component states, notably Germany and Sweden, have decided they are dissatisfied with their original citizenry and have decided to augment or replace them. Hence the decision to invite in millions of muslims, in the hope that their faster reproduction rates will lead to higher population and workforce growth rates. More workers to propel industry and more taxpayers to sustain the state with its big spending ambitions.

    I was struck by the vehemence in the voice of a German Green politician, who was berating the rightwing members of the Bundestag to the effect that Germans would soon become a minority in all German cities and that this was a good thing and that right wingers just better get used to it. What an extraordinary statement! I cannot imagine that it would be made in any other parliament anywhere in the world. Can you believe that a Japanese, Indian or Indonesian politician would say such a thing? Not likely – they would be denounced as traitors to their own people. Not so in Germany. Apparently, rejoicing in the demographic replacement of the indigenous German population with middle eastern imports of a radically different culture is seen as a good thing.

    I can only conclude that the German Government, and by extension the EU (a subsidiary of Germany), has decided that the population they were given to rule over was not good enough (or numerous enough) and they have decided to import another one. What do you Euro-lefties think about my theory? How else would you explain the triumphant declaration of that German politician that the German people would soon be replaced (google her speech on YouTube)? I am mystified. Do Germans hate themselves so much?

    • Cyril Sneer

      In a nutshell, the traitorous left and traitorous right of business advocate ethnic cleansing for us all.

      I’d say that deserves a proper response equivalent to ethnic cleansing.

    • Sue Smith

      Don’t confuse German Green fundamentalists with the general population.

      Your comments mostly have the ring of frightening reality. But muslims are not ‘one people’ – they are one religion, different nations, different sects. That’s a major part of the problem. What are the Europeans getting? Have they asked the question, “Is what is good for refugees also good for Europe? Explain your answer in 1,000 words or less”.

      It’s appalling at every single level. I actually feel sorry for people who are thinking of travelling to Europe and who’ve been sold the idea of Cologne Cathedral, the Rhine, lederhausen and Swiss mountains with cattle wearing large bells. That’s the ancient history of Europe. The new one is far far more ugly. AVOID.

  • Harryagain

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/take-more-refugee-children-from-europe-tory-mps-tell-david-cameron-after-mission-to-lesbos-a6850601.html

    Once a upon a time there were three ghouls.

    Feeling the need for a bit of free publicity and regardless of the fact they/their party had arranged the bombing of Syria/Libya, they went to Lesbos for a touchy feely session with little muslims.
    They made sure a photographer was to hand to record the moment for posterity.
    Probably an armed guard as well.

    They thought these children should be brought to the UK, quite forgetting that cute little muslims grow up into gropers, rapists, child abductors and pimps.
    As bitter experience has shown normal people in Rotherham, Cologne and dozens of other cities throughout Europe.
    This I hasten to add is because they are muslim not because they are Arabs.

    I ‘spect it was all done at taxpayer’s expense.

  • Augustus

    A more interesting question would be: will the migration crisis lead to the end of the EU? Because the pervading tone reeks of panic and impotence. Unanimity really no longer exists. In Europe’s capitals no one sticks to mutual agreements. When leaders like Orban choose not to follow the Brussels line but opt for the protection of their own people instead, Brussels tries to impose financial penalties on Eastern European countries to get them to follow Merkel’s megalomaniacal craving to shelter untold numbers of refugees. Then there’s the ridiculous and potentially dangerous Erdogan deal. And with Schengen now potentially dead, the EU ‘s fall can’t be that far off. There’s already a Führer bunker atmosphere.

  • KenelmDigby

    Vote ‘Leave’.

  • William Matthews

    What I find astonishing is the socialists have all embraced an ‘Arnold Schwarzenegger The Running Man’ themed migration policy. Only the fastest, fittest, most wealthy refugee’s and immigrant’s can escape the prison of 3rd world countries! But only if they survive the trial by water! And who cares about all those immigrants and refugees too weak, too old, too poor or too sick to make it? Well, they make for boring TV, so forget about them. We had enough of their kind in the 1980’s with Ethiopia. It’s time to start running!

    It’s basically turning into a reality TV show, starring a surprising number of people called Mohammed. If the Tories had suggested this, the soap dodgers would be burning London.

    • Catherine Anders

      You know, I was wondering about this too. I’m all in favour of aiding genuine refugees, my problem is the economic migrants. I’ve heard people tell me that those deserve sympathy too, since they’re fleeing because they’re so poor. But the problem is, we don’t know anything about these people and what their social standing was in their own countries. All we know is that they were able to come up with 7000$ per head to pay to the human traffickers who smuggled them to Europe. Now, I don’t know where you live, but in my country the average person couldn’t get hold of 7000$ in cash.

      • William Matthews

        Something odd is happening. Where do the migrants get the money?

        In the UK $7,000 (USD) is roughly £4,500 – £5,000. Now, I’m a well educated Brit, who has had a nice career in IT. I’m now in my 40s. If you had asked me 20 years ago for let’s say £2,000 ($3,000) I would have struggled. In truth, most young British people today struggle to get a deposit on a house mortgage, which is about £7,500 on average ($10,000 ish). Something is rotten, for sure, right? It is weird, these people from countries with weaker economies have access to $$$’s, and they are predominately males under 32 years of age. Something doesn’t add up. If I could drum up the money they pay to be smuggled in to the EU, in their countries, with their economies, I’d stay. Just keep making that kind of money.

        • Catherine Anders

          I’ve just read an article about an Isis commander, allegedly responsible for dozens of deaths in Syria, arrested by the German police in a refugee shelter. He came to the EU through Turkey, and at one point he was known to have on his person several tens of thousands of $. There seems to be a suspicious amount of liquidity circulating around Turkey, and migrants and refugees have access to it somehow. Even though apparently, they are made to live in refugee camps and are not allowed to work. If a million people made it from Turkey to Europe and each paid an average of 5000$ for the crossing, that would mean at least an astronomic 5.000.000.000$ has changed hands, presumably all in cash.

  • Malcolm Stevas

    “EU migrant policy is a disaster because it is only as strong as its weakest states”
    Unarguable, I’d say. This has been demonstrated graphically. One can offer a corollary: UK migrant policy is only as strong as the UK’s weakest or least responsible government. The issue of the day is immigration via the EU, but of course non-EU immigrants are greater in number: for all his “tens of thousands” PR puffery, Cameron presides over a massive influx of immigrants – very few of whom are the sort of highly skilled or qualified folk with fluent English whom we might reasonably consider. From memory I think it was 287,000 non-EU folk arriving in the year to March 2014, compared with 265,000 from other EU states. Historically, Conservative governments were responsible for rather a lot of immigration (mass immigration having started only in the 40s/50s/60s), then Labour post-2000 ramped it up hugely. It is important for us to remember the sorry record of our politicians in this matter: they can’t just blame the EU.
    “In states where the odds of being refused entry are large, such as in Australia, the migrant exodus dries up very quickly, as people respond to incentives.”
    Of course they do. It is an observable human characteristic that we behave just like mice in a laboratory maze: if there’s cheese, they go for it. And some people wonder whether admitting huge numbers of illegal migrants to EU countries such as Germany and Sweden might possibly encourage more to come. In truth, there’s nowt so queer as folk.

    • Bonzo

      Sadly, all too true. It is hard/impossible to believe Cameron has any interest in reducing immigration. From the November 2015 ONS Migration statistics:

      “Net migration of EU citizens showed a statistically significant increase to 180,000 (up 42,000 from YE June 2014). Non-EU net migration also had a statistically significant increase, to 201,000 (up 36,000).”

      The full statistics are here: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migration1/migration-statistics-quarterly-report/november-2015/stb-msqr-november-2015.html

      • Malcolm Stevas

        Yes, I’ve seen those figures on the Migration Watch site (an invaluable resource) and cited by John Redwood – whose blog is part of my essential daily reading. As in so many areas, on immigration Cameron is all mouth and no trousers – as my granny would have said…

      • Cyril Sneer

        ” It is hard/impossible to believe Cameron has any interest in reducing immigration”

        B-b-but he promised he would? Tens of thousands he said…. he gave us his cast iron guarantee.

        • Bonzo

          One could be excused for thinking you are implying a politician might not be completely honest during an election campaign.

  • Conway

    … someone from Brussels was explaining that ‘more Europe’ was needed to solve the migrant/refugee crisis.” That’s their answer to every EU created crisis, more of what caused it in the first place!

  • Sid Falco

    It’s inconceivable that any country would let these parasites across their borders unless they were being strongarmed by the lunatics in Brussels.

  • George

    Yes, I think the migrant crisis would have happened without the EU.

    Although the cause of the recent massive influx was Angela Merkel’s open welcome to virtually everyone on the planet to come to Germany, this welcome policy was itself only a reflection of the wider Western world’s extremely liberal policy on so-called “refugees” and “asylum seekers”.

    All Merkel did was to call the West’s policy into action.

    Would-be refugees and economic migrants from all over the world have always known that Europe is a soft touch. They have always known that once you make it to Europe you are home and dry and can live the rest of your life on the taxpayer.

    An example of this is the 2000 Calais migrants Britain took in over two years ago. According to BBC news, virtually the full 2000 are still on welfare. What’s not to like about that?

    The world’s migrants have been making their way to soft-touch Europe for decades. Merkel, for her own reasons, simply gave the numbers a big boost. But it is the West’s soft-touch policy on immigration that is the problem, not the EU.

    Western political culture has, for the last 50 years, effectively told the world that the West is responsible for solving the world’s problems. Make it to Europe, it says, and the taxpayer will take up your burden. Housing, medical care, schooling, pensions, you name it, and the Western taxpayer will give it to you.

    That’s why millions have made their way to Europe, bypassing safe countries. And it’s why millions more are on their way.

    • rationality

      ‘Western political culture has, for the last 50 years, effectively told the world that the West is responsible for solving the world’s problems.’

      Western political culture maybe but not the European people’s political culture. Significant difference.

    • Gilbert White

      Right but we have lost a lot of face with the Asians who are bemused or perceive as a laughing stock.

  • sfin

    Spot on with the last paragraph and it’s something the ‘outers’ should emphasise more often. Britain’s never ending, ‘in’ but ‘sceptical’ position does put the brakes on ‘ever closer union’ for those countries that want it.

    ‘Inners’ should also be made aware that the ‘status quo’ for Britain will no longer exist post referendum – however the vote goes. An ‘in’ vote will kill the sceptical voice forever and Britain’s absorption into an EU Federal State will accelerate.

    • The Masked Marvel

      Sadly, Ed seems to the EU can move forward in a good way.

    • LG

      “An ‘in’ vote will kill the sceptical voice forever”

      You didn’t learn any lessons from the ‘in’ vote that Scotland had then? Didn’t exactly kill the ‘out’ voice there!

      • sfin

        The party in power in Scotland is the ‘out’ party.

        In the UK, as a whole, both parties who can credibly gain power at the next election are ‘in’ parties.

        Big difference.

    • Conway

      I don’t think those who are unhappy with the EU will disappear, even if we are conned into staying in.

      • sfin

        I agree, but think of all the irreversible, directives, treaties and ‘rules’, over the last forty years or so, that have been steamrollered through our parliament – against majority, public opinion…

        An “in” vote will be seen as a fresh mandate to “engage more fully”. I wouldn’t even rule out us joining the Euro (without a referendum, naturally) within five years.

        Europhile politicians play the “representative” democracy card all the time and despise plebiscites.

        They will milk an “in” mandate for decades…until it is too late.

  • The Masked Marvel

    That’s only one level of damage related to the existence of the EU. Why did the ‘migrant’ crisis happen in the first place? If not for the closer integration of mandarins, it’s likely that Libya and Syria would be entirely different stories, and there would not have been the situation from which the (wave / swarm / deluge / happy assortment of fluffy innocent lambs / delete as applicable) came in the first place. Cultural damage had already been done on one level, and this pushed it too far. The military coordination – and leaders showing off to one another as to who wanted more humanitarian military action – probably wouldn’t have happened if there was no EU.

  • frank davidson

    Good article. The striking thing of course is the difference between Australia and the EU. Australia works.

  • rtj1211

    For the Euro-fanatics, it doesn’t matter what the excuse is, the only need there ever is is for ‘more Europe’. Global warming? More Europe. Invading hordes of migrants? More Europe. Sclerotic economies? More Europe. Tax avoiding US multinationals? More Europe.

    Zika virus? More Europe (the fact that less migration might help there does seem to have gone over their heads).

    The only people who want more Europe are the ones who will get richer and more powerful with more Europe.

    As for the rest? They don’t count……

    • Todd Unctious

      The Zika virus is here already. What else explains the tiny headed folk who vote UKIP?

  • rationality

    The European Union is not in the least bit concerned about the European people. It seeks as many people from elsewhere who have no loyalty to the country they are moving to as a means and eventual justification for the removal of sovereign nation’s borders. So with the Coudenhove Kalergi plan (and I dont think we can see this as a mere conspiracy now) and the promotion of interbreeding (it can only be sinister) to create a mongrelised group of people with no history, no identity and easily manipulated into whatever the elites want. Its effectively the genocide of the European people all enabled by the ironically named European Union with their fraudulent migrant crisis. Brexit is nowhere near enough. It has to go.

    To be fair I learnt a lot of this from your book ‘the Diversity Illusion’. One of the best books to be read and highly recommended.

    • colchar

      Are you capable of posting anything without complaining about ‘the elites’?

      • rationality

        Very good point but it is such a massive problem.

      • Sue Smith

        You see, I don’t think the self-appointed “elites” are elites at all. That’s my theory and I’m sticking to it. It’s kind of analogous to saying “Pollyanna was the ultimate idealist”. Seriously, who’d actually WANT that kind of idealism?

    • Wee Mental Davie

      I don’t buy this conspiracy coudenhove thing. Try this but its just mibbee. The West have been slowly going bankrupt. The more we spend, the bigger the debt obviously. As the oil prices rise to a huge cost, the money was all heading East as the oil came West. The East was then buying everything in the West. Our population was reducing in the West. We could never pay the bills and it got out of control. The East was taking control of everything.

      They needed a fix. So, collapse the oil price, and the money remains in the West. Import as many people as the indigenous population could be fooled into taking to create growth from the oil money now in the West. To do all this, they create a migrant crisis through the Syrian war. It failed in Iraq and Afganistan but has worked with Syria.

      Thing is, the fools cant stop the exodus and they failed in thinking we would accept islam in our lands. Here we are now. The EU hoping to look the saviours of this disaster and this is why Cameron is desperate to remain. The West have screwed this all up big time.

      • rationality

        I spent a lot of time reading post apocalyptic novels (one of the best genres) but I never thought that the CK plan could be real in my worst nightmares. I see it as feasible due to Rotherham, Cologne and all the other sx crimes (how very 1984) that have been not so much covered up but really a criminal conspiracy to allow them to happen.

        We are not ruled by true European people particularly as the US is our true master and they are mostly not European in the White House and various international agencies. What is happening to us now with the so called crisis I can only see as revenge, hate and spite to drag the Europeans down so that we have no say and become minorities in our own land. We see this in the non European inspired feminism, infiltrated Christian churches with the unChristian pro immigration and gay lobbys, our taxes spent on welfare for other people who hate us and will never reciprocate the gesture, the ethnic cleansing of our towns and cities from European people that have lived there for generations, the sense of demoralisation and bewilderment, not being allowed free association to be exclusively in our groups, how evil and racist we are constantly reminded etc.

        It goes on and on. What I have said above is evidence of real hate towards us and I can only fear the worst which is the CK plan and the Bolshevik Revolution v2.0. Thats why I say these sorts of things online because if we dont fully understand the real hate we’re finished.

        • Gilbert White

          Cause and efffect if there was a complete collapse we would have a ready made supply of cheap labour to serve us at a literal level. This is a complex socio economic platform humans cannot predict or explain. It looks like a mosquito will eventually settle the score with this pointless and unsustainable third world breeding, we are not allowed to discuss?

          • Sue Smith

            It turns out that the mosquito is THE biggest single killer in the history of the world.

          • rationality

            I think this mosquito thing is a scam and Zika sounds as though it was made by a lab owned by the Rockefellers. Yet another excuse to stop people breeding.

            In a sane world there would be a cordon sanitare around the Med with turrets, drones, mines, gunships, helicopters and men and women armed and let Africa devour itself.

        • Mary Ann

          You should write a novel.

          • rationality

            My first priority is to complete an assignment but this lark just kills concentration.

            I’ll take that as a compliment even if it was intended. Thanks

      • rationality

        Long story short. I am very scared.

    • Sue Smith

      The mention of Australia and its border controls is significant but, as we speak, there are hundreds of Australians attempting every day to unravel those border controls. You see, they think THEY know what’s best for Australia and the latest challenge by the High Court to asylum activists and legal oligarchs has been thrown out. In the latest stunt a Christian church has thrown open its doors to refugees who’ve come to mainland Australia for medical care and don’t want to be returned for ‘processing’ at Nauru in a detention centre. This has been all over the media. And, BTW, those people on the island of Nauru have now mostly had their determinations for refugee status rejected. Doesn’t deter the loony left. So, we are facing a hugely undemocratic challenge from people within our own country.

      Exactly the same thing would happen in Italy or elsewhere should these have the borders of old and not belong to the EU. There will always be activists who don’t care about their own country and who want their wills imposed on everybody else.

      • rationality

        The activists are often useful idiots, paid sabotagists or vain narcissists. Its the ideology behind all this that is what we should be talking about as many more people on here are starting to do. We have to look beyond the monkeys and go straight to the organ grinder.

        Oh my god. One whole evening without the Leon. Such bliss….

        • Sue Smith

          I’ve just bought the book on which this lecture is based. Listen to what he says about “equality” within the first few minutes!! Ferguson is a legend!

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Led-EqqSJI

          • rationality

            If you read the Sunday Times you would not be a fan of Ferguson. He writes about ‘racist whites’ and their ‘ugly past’ as well as the usual Trump demonisation. If he wants to take the Murdoch shekel and alienatebhis readers fine but I’ll call him out.

            Sorry

            • Sue Smith

              Of course, you’re entirely welcome to your opinion. I haven’t read any articles of the type you mention but I would support his views of Trump. I would suggest there’s something possibly credible about ‘racist whites’ – but I’m thinking more along the lines of the kind of white people who build up blacks and others because they are self-loathing. I’ll investigate this matter further. Thanks for the heads-up.

              • rationality

                Ferguson is pure NWO and plays to the audience. He likes his cushy lifestyle as a professor at Harvard. So on the one had he makes noises that please the right and when it comes to the issues he wouldnt want to hurt his career so hes most likely controlled opposition. Obviously you need the context of the article I am speaking of but seeing your posts on the race issue, you’re just making excuses for him. To talk of racism in white societies before mass immigration its effectively demoninsing whites as ‘racism’ is just a Trotskyite term to exploit white guilt as we have better societies.

                Rod Liddle on the other hand says very similar things in the Sunday Times as what he does here therefore I trust him so much more. Similarly Douglas Murray and Ed West. Time to chuck the controlled opposition under the bus.

                • Sue Smith

                  I think Ferguson makes sense on a range of issues to do with national sovereignty, debt and governance of the EU. Whatever his political posturing because he belongs to academe is of no consequence to me. If he labels white people racists it will probably be because his partner is Ayaan Hirsi Ali – a black activist and a very clever and forthright one at that. Ali has called for radical overhauls of Islam so that muslims can integrate better into their new societies. She has written extensively of her own experiences with medieval, barbarian muslim practices. She is also an extremely clever academic.

                  Ferguson does not work at Harvard any longer; he’s at the Hoover Institute in California now.

                • rationality

                  I stand corrected on his present employer and yes his wife is obviously a factor in his thoughts on racism, but oh boy those in mixed marriages are the most sanctimonious on race relations.

                  However in todays edition of the ST Ferguson is promoting the slick bought and so blatantly paid for Rubio against Trump. As I said earlier pure NWO. I cant see Liddle, Murray or West ever promoting Trump as they wouldnt want to alienate their core readers. Ferguson obviously doesnt care.

                • Sue Smith

                  Well, hubris and academia seem to go together!! I’ll have a look online for the Sunday Times. When we lived in Vienna my husband used to buy the Weekend Telegraph and there was loads of excellent reading in that. Which paper do you consider the most serious and reliable?

                  Mixed race marriages, yes. These people remind me of converted smokers who drive people up the wall. There’s a strong element of defensiveness in both positions.

                • rationality

                  Thanks its good to disagree with people here on certain issues without it being a Leon Wolfenson troll fest.

                  I think the ST is behind a paywall. Its the last MSM physical paper I buy but even that may not be for much longer as that paper has a such a strong cultural Marxist agenda attached. As though it is deliberately driving readers away. So many publications are completely discredited now. I used to like the Economist as its analysis and statistics are the best but is so pro immigration it betrays its leaders. I have recently given up on Private Eye, the satirical magazine after 25 years as its not saying anything about what is going on. Im quite sad about that but again if they want to drive away their readers.

                  The best I can think of is the dear Speccie. It may have absurdly pro-EU or Conservative Party articles but they’re not stupid to alienate their readers too much. I cant think of anything else physical worth reading, Online I suggest Zero Hedge as the commenters are absolutely spot on and absolute unanimity of what is behind our current problems. Its the unanimity there that gives me the certainty for what I say in my posts. Oh and dear Breitbart as well. Very anti mass immigration and anti Islam. Building a very strong readership base. I do like to have a good moan on there.

                • Sue Smith

                  I admit to zero tolerance for Marxist agendas. I struck this when I studied Musicology 25 years ago and my back arched. I took on the head of the music department and said, “you do not endear me to your musics by destroyed the love and respect I have for mine”. She turned on her heel and left the room.

                  I don’t want to be preached at through the media; I want intelligent, analytical discussion of ALL the issues without necessarily a conservative orientation. That’s something I can do for myself!! However, I concede that the media is in a difficult position since the internet arrived on the scene and it tends to play to an audience rather than simply provide reinforcement to the ideologies of a strata in society. That’s not what thinking is about, IMO. And it’s precisely for these reasons that I seem to prefer reading whole books on a subject these days. This is why I’m so interested in Ferguson’s notions of what’s wrong with the western world; his other books have been good as was his program “The Ascent of Money”.

                  And it’s important to have counter-arguments if you meet rusted-on lefties in other media. They are, of course, absolutely entitled to their opinions but life and experience has shown me that these are mostly misguided. Don’t let that leave you with the impression that the Right and conservatism has all the answers either; it doesn’t. Some of their ideas are downright quaint and resistant to change. I’d never want to be identified with that. But having ideologies forced down my throat with a long-handled shovel by the Left leaves me icy cold.

                  And at my stage in life – retired – I want to continue to learn and think.
                  All the best!

                • rationality

                  Im a bit younger so for me this is very much concern for my future. I think that politics now has a new paradigm with the old left/right being completely out of date. I debate elsewhere about what sort of society we could have if and when we rid ourselves of our parasites but its a big ‘if’.

                  Many thanks Sue! See you around.

                • Sue Smith

                  Nice talking with you!

    • Mary Ann

      Unless we start having more babies we will be extinct within ten generations, Birth rate 1.6 replacement rate 2.1, do the maths.

      If we don’t force white Western European women to have more babies we will need migrants to look after us in our old age.

      • rationality

        I am definitely the man for that!

        Yeah I can really see Mahmoud from Mogadishu or Abdul from Arabia ready and willing to look after us in our old age. They can’t even look after themselves without welfare from our labour.

        You actually believe that they are being brought here for that reason! You are on this site and do none of what we say have any bearing? What sort of twisted society does its utmost to prevent breeding for the host citizens by degrading their religion to some p*ssy shyt, make housing really expensive due to the numbers of immigrants, a hostile and treacherous media and the tide of third world filth discouraging us to bring kids into such an awful environment.

        You just refuse to get it.

  • Ralph

    ‘Radio 4 might get unbearable’, too late.

    • Bluesman_1

      2004, for me. To add further praise to him citizen Wogan did save my sanity.

    • Gilbert White

      Eight months R4 free, easier than giving up fried foods?

      • rationality

        Same here! In 2014 I thought they were getting it on the Muslim issue but I recognise that was divide and conquer by winding us up as they at last recognised the problem. I gave up on R4 after the engineered migrant crisis and lost all credibility. I replaced it with Red Ice Radio and I have learnt so much more. It really showed me how dumbed down R4 is.

  • jim

    “A Europe in which the European Union did not exist, and in which each state managed its own migration policy, would not have the crisis we now face…… the European Union probably needs to move ahead and centralise its system of migration, asylum and border control, or it will fall apart. …”

    Well there you have it. The EU is over.Let it go..You gave it a good shot.It didn’t work. Move on.

    • Conway

      It’s dead, but it won’t lie down.

  • fred finger

    Would a country like say Italy, use it’s Navy to patrol the Libyan coast knowing that those it picks up will have to be taken back to Italy with no chance of moving on to another country? Don’t need to be a Merkel to figure out the answer. Hum maybe Merkel was the wrong choice.

  • Polly Radical

    Ed says ‘they are not an invading force’ – but is he sure about that?
    A lot of people would disagree.

    • Conway

      It’s hijra, but I expect Ed is a fully signed up member of the NTDWI club.

      • rationality

        Personally I think Ed knows exactly what is going on and goes as close as he can without harming his job prospects.

    • Cobbett

      He’s a ‘Cuck’.

  • Dr Bock

    To be fair, I recently arrived at the conclusion that if European countries have to beg the Americans for the smart weapons we use to help depose unpleasant regimes not buzzed about our Humanist values, it’s likely that we’d also have to do the same for the bullets required to enforce our external borders.

  • WFC

    Daddy in Berlin will settle the bill.

    Given that it was Mummy in Berlin who invited them in the first place, why shouldn’t Daddy foot the bill?

    • Muttley

      Daddy needs to divorce Mummy urgently.

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