Coffee House

Which way will Gove go?

13 February 2016

10:32 AM

13 February 2016

10:32 AM

If all goes according to David Cameron’s plan, he’ll have his EU deal by this time next week. But Downing Street still can’t be sure of which Tory heavyweights will be with Cameron come the referendum campaign, and which won’t.

Even more than Boris Johnson, Michael Gove is causing Downing Street angst. As I report in The Sun today, Gove is ‘definitely wobbling’ according to one Downing Street source. Downing Street think the chances of him backing Out have increased significantly in the last 10 days or so.

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Gove himself has been telling people that he won’t make a decision until the deal is done. But those around him are now preparing for Gove coming Out. One minister who is close to Gove both personally and politically, but who will back In, tells me that ‘it is a question of to what degree he goes Out’. By this they mean, how much does Gove throw himself into the campaign.

If Gove did go Out, it would be quite a moment. It would give the Out campaign intellectual credibility and significant Cabinet support. But it would also show that you can be in favour of Cameron and for leaving the EU. If this debate isn’t about Cameron, it will be that much easier to reunite the Tory party afterwards.

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Show comments
  • trobrianders

    “They entered politics to make a difference”. What a joke! This referendum will expose everybody.

  • PaD

    Fraser …we dont care.

  • CharlietheChump

    Gove is one of the very few politicians I like, admire even. He has intellect, a firm sense of his beliefs combined with a willingness to stand firm and defend his positions rather than washing with the focus-group tide as so many post Clinton/Blair politicos do.

    His mystical devotion to Dead Duck Dave is his one sin, but I forgive him that.

  • Jannerman

    I’ve heard it said that Gove may come out in favour of Brexit, but under an arrangement with Cameron he may not take part in campaigning. If that’s the case, he can shove his support and throw all in with Cameron and the rest of the traitors. We don’t need cowards on our side.

  • Frank

    What I find laughable is these lists of which ministers are currently for “IN” and which for “Out”. The list of the “In” ministers is the same list one would prepare if one were listing the weakest and least bright members of Cabinet!

    • The Masked Marvel

      Indeed, it is rather telling.

  • David J Timson

    Given how popular Mr Gove isn’t, is he really such a “catch” for Leave? (And I say that as one of the 11% who actually think he did a good job as Education Secretary…).
    But Mr Hunt is for Remain. Rejoice!

  • jeffersonian

    ‘Which way will Gove go?’

    Hope springs eternal.

  • MathMan

    ” If voting changed anything they wouldn’t let us do it.”

    Mark Twain

    • Rob

      Ed Milliband might disagree with Mark Twain.

  • Roger Hudson

    If the Lord Chancellor doesn’t know about our loss of sovereignty then nobody does.
    Vote ‘out’.

  • Muttley

    Who cares which way Gove goes? As a confirmed Outer, I wouldn’t particularly welcome his backing for the Leave campaign. I regard him as much as a liability as an assett. Since when has he been a popular public figure?

  • Polly Radical

    Is Gove really an ‘intellectual heavyweight’ ? Or just another faux conservative keeping up appearances?

  • Colin

    “Which way will Gove go?”

    Who cares? Just as with Johnson, we don’t need him. In the end, the contest is between people like Gove and the rest of us.

  • Chet Carter

    Whichever way Murdoch tells him to go?

  • Old Fox

    True, he cooperated over getting the boot from education, but there is such a thing as the worm than turns. Then again the matter of Europe is of even greater moment than the business of schools. Gove might have justified his obedience to Cameron over education on the grounds that his legacy there was secure. He would have gone on to think in terms of continued Tory unity and his own career – fair enough. Now, however, he faces the ideological opportunity – and the moral question – of a lifetime. Recall, he is an intellectual – unlike Cameron who is merely clever. Gove really believes in ideas and in systematic thought. He is “conservative” in the manner of a right wing Liberal – a conscious believer in law, markets, national coherence and political representation – a la Thatcher. Cameron, by contrast, relies on a mix of prejudice and habit for his views, buffered by a cloud of scepticism – which is why he speaks so half heartedly and has never yet managed to get genuinely “pumped up” – to use his own, awful and yet telling expression. Gove can be scarily furious at times. If Gove, therefore, is ever to live with himself in future and not emerge from this ding-dong as a broken but decorated remnant, he must obey not Cameron but his conscience; he must shout for out.

  • London Calling

    No need to worrry
    Panic or shout
    Cameron say’s he hasn’t
    Ruled anything out.
    Whatever that means
    Is anyones guess
    He may come out
    In a pretty dress….:)

  • anyfool

    Gove shows every sign of doing a Wee Wiilie Hague, expect a 180 degree turn, no one should be under the impression that any singular individual will make much difference, unless they are totally committed, both Boris and Gove appear to be looking at which way the wind is blowing, initially it will give a transient boost, but soon that would drop away.
    What would make a difference is that if they turn their coats again just before the vote, that could have serious implications, best not to let them lead.

  • Freebornbriton

    I am for Cameron but will vote Leave. I don’t see the problem .

  • FrankS2

    Have we yet heard the Brexit position of Kimye, Kylie and those Katedashian folk whose doings seem to enthrall the editor of the DM?

  • ButcombeMan

    “It would give the Out campaign intellectual credibility”

    Bubble writer, with bubble writer, looking through a narrow slit view, of what is going on on the country, in the pubs, on the blogs, yes even of the Guardian. Gove will have minimal effect. The momentum is there without him or Boris.

    The Leave campaign does not NEED Gove to have credibility, David Cameron is effectively leading the leave campaign by nearly every utterance he makes on the subject. He is losing, it, throwing it away. Trying to justify the unjustifiable, letting down those who supported the Tory manifesto.

  • ardenjm

    Good grief. This is just such B S.
    Gove co-operated with his own defenestration from Education – leaving a job unfinished and childrens’ futures insufficiently protected from an educational establishment that is complicit in their failing.
    If he didn’t have the guts to stick it to Cameron for their sakes he’s certainly not going to do it on a point of principle concerning the EU.

    • The Masked Marvel

      My uptick of your comment was done with a tinge of sadness.

      • ardenjm

        I agree. He could have gone down as the best Education Secretary for over a century and, since Cameron would have pushed him out (as is Cameron’s egregiously unprincipled way), he could have publicly fought his corner – and resigned with dignity and his principles intact.
        Instead of that he chooses personal loyalty to a man who will show him none in return and whose masquerade of a ‘negotiation’ over the EU reveals him to be part of the paternalistic problem that is causing such an upswing in popular disgust with the whole lot of them.

        • southerner

          I agreed with your first comment. But you are straying into hyperbole here – Gove was absurdly over-praised as Education Secretary.

  • Lady Magdalene

    Gove is another Conservative EU-sceptic who doesn’t seem to have any principled opposition to the surrender of our Sovereignty to the EU.

    He’s waiting to see what the deal is. Well we know it won’t restore our Sovereignty so it should be completely unacceptable to him.

    I expect he will turn out to be another “all mouth and no trousers” EU sceptic who puts career before country.

    • Alibogs

      I hope not, I feel if Gove doesn’t have any principles and turns out to be as disappointingly spineless as the others, a rug will have been pulled from under my feet and I won’t be able to trust my instincts about people anymore. However, I think he has actually already said he isn’t really an outer, so I am going to have to face the truth.

      • WuffoTheWonderDog

        What on earth did you see in him in the first place? His sloppy pout?
        He’s a Tory. Tories are there for their party which then is there for them, not us.
        Why try to find something that isn’t there?

    • WuffoTheWonderDog

      Mr Gove trumpeted to all and sundry that he sends his daughter to the state-run Grey Coat Hospital School (GCHS) situated within walking distance from Parliament. He also has a son – does he send him to the brother school of GCHS which just across Victoria Street and also within walking distance from Parliament. This is Westminster City School (WCS) to which Lloyd George sent his son when he was prime minister. The school produced a 1956 Nobel prize-winner. Could Mr Gove’s reluctance to send his son to WCS be because it is now entirely black, whereas GCHS is entirely white? Is it the fact that two of WCS’s female staff were raped by students, both crimes hushed up with £100,000 cheques.

  • majorfrustration

    Gove does not actually inspire me despite his current position. As for No 10’s plan they seem to be in panic mode. Lets get the “deal” done and establish how weak it is then we can get on with making sure the UK leaves the EU

  • James Chilton

    Does Little Mickey have any principles? Must he wait until the ‘deal’ is done before deciding what his position really is?

  • WFC

    Dear Political Class & Media Groupies

    This referendum isn’t all about you.

    Best wishes,

    The electorate.

    • Holly

      This referendum is mainly because of them…

      • Nan Tucks Ghost

        It’s mainly in spite of them.

      • Lady Magdalene

        The referendum is mainly because of Nigel Farage, UKIP and the number of Conservative Party defectors.

        • WuffoTheWonderDog

          One of the defectors, Carswell, believes that UKIP joined him.
          He’s wrong. He joined UKIP, and before much longer he will go back where he belongs.

  • In2minds

    So it’s all down to Gove the ordinary voter does not matter?

  • MrBishi

    The Brexit case is so threadbare, it is hard to see Gove joining it.

    • saffrin

      Such as winning our country back from the unelected, unaccountable civil servants that now run it?

      • MrBishi

        You comment is simply untrue – part of the threadbare case I mentioned.

        • saffrin

          With the British being denied our promised referendum, French, Dutch and Irish voters all rejecting the Lisbon Treaty, the unelected civil servants still pushed it through.
          Under NO circumstances does Brussels represent the 500,000,000 citizens they claim to.

          • MrBishi

            You all seem happy to spout meaningless garbage.

            • saffrin

              Maybe you should wait until you know something about something, anything, before making a fool of yourself.

              • MrBishi

                I know exactly what the EU means for the UK.

                • MikeBrighton

                  Yes subsumed into a German-dominated European superstate. No thanks!

                • teigitur

                  Do enlighten us.

                • MrBishi

                  We continue as a viable economic entity with a lifestyles similar to those of the last 40 years.
                  If we leave we will follow Greece’s pattern of default.

                • Frank

                  You seem wilfully determined to ignore the fact that the EU, with or without Britain’s participation, is collapsing. Britain’s exit will of course hasten this collapse, but it will happen anyway.
                  Secondly you “remainers” always bleat about Norway, but Britain is twelve / thirteen times larger than Norway and is a vastly more significantly important market for EU member states than is Norway. Finally Britain’s exports to the rest of the world are soaring whilst those to the other EU member states are falling year on year.
                  Britain’s role in the EU is basically that which it always has been – to be the mother of all democracies. We are leaving because the EU has no democratic mandate and has usurped our sovereignty – you focus on trade, but that is not the core issue and that is why our departure is so significant for the other EU members, they cannot avoid facing up to what the EU has become. As an example, look at the EU making enquiries into, and expressing concern about, the latest political changes in Poland – or its recent threats to Greece.

                • MrBishi

                  The usual nonsense.

                • Frank

                  We shall see.

                • Nan Tucks Ghost

                  You’re the only one who does, given that it’s not a democracy and makes policies on the basis of majority vote.

                • MrBishi

                  Garbage.

                • Nan Tucks Ghost

                  Point proven, again.

        • MikeBrighton

          I do not wish the UK to be subsumed within a German dominated European superstate end of. I originally thought the leave campaign had no chance but I’m stunned by the vacuity of the remain campaign and we are starting to witness the beginning of establishment panic.

          • MrBishi

            The p***poor performance by Cameron is exceeded only by the complete lack of a campaign from the Brexit crew.
            You don’t even know if you are for EFTA or completely out and EFTA means joining Schengen with open borders.
            The Brexit crew have the advantage that they are dealing with halfwits and so don’t need an exhaustive campaign that is either achievable or honest.

            • MikeBrighton

              With the p*** poor performance of Cameron and the Remain “campaign” (on that we agree), we barely need to campaign….they are doing our job for us. Cheers!

              Go and read Flexit (google it)…it spells out the exit plan in detail. Come back when you have read it.

              When coming to halfwits, I need look no further than the laughable points made by the remain campaign. It’s going well so far eh? lol

              • Foxy Loxy

                Flexit is the only game in town as far as Brexit is concerned.

                Neither of the Brexit groups seem capable of dealing with this fact. Vote Leave, in particular, seem intent upon losing the referendum by refusing to engage in an open debate about the very great technical complexities of leaving the EU – and the fact that there HAS to be a detailed, convincing and realistic plan.

                Flexit is all of these things. Thank God for Dr North and his colleagues: they give us hope.

                • MD

                  Flexcit, with a ‘c’! Look it up and download it.

                • Foxy Loxy

                  Oops. Spelling error. Flexcit it is.

              • MrBishi

                It’s Flexcit with a “c”.
                I got as far as the opening page and saw it was by North who I consider to be a scoundrel. He had a long argument with me trying to insist that Schengen (open borders) was not mandatory for EFTA members. Schengen is written into the EU acquis and its adoption is non-negotiable.
                I have no problem with EFTA membership. All the EU laws except farming and fishing, costs about 80% of full EU membership with no say in future policy development. Norway spends £12 billion a year (on a like for like basis) on its version of CAP which is included in our membership fee plus MEMBERSHIP OF SCHENGEN (OPEN BORDERS).
                What’s not to like? The electorate will be straining at their leashes to sign up to it.
                We were one of the original 8 founders of EFTA, 6 of whom have now moved to full membership.
                What happened to all the sovereignty and being dictated to issues?
                And you wonder why I think you are all halfwits.

                • MikeBrighton

                  I really don’t care what you think and your analysis is laughable. The EU and political integration is simply not in our political or economic interests and we have to leave. End of.
                  Thankfully the Remain campaign is (contrary to what I thought would happen) laugable. On current trajectory we are out. Compounded with the Tory realisation that the next leader has to be a member of out and Cameron’s days are now very limited. What’s not to like, the politics is now moving in my direction, even Labour are lukewarm – Corbyn spent his entire political life opposing the EU now he’s notably quiet….

                • MrBishi

                  I agree that the “remain” campaign has been laughable, but the Brexit campaign is non existent.
                  Brexit don’t even know what form of “out” they want. You underestimate the electorate if you think that that will run with them.

                • MikeBrighton

                  The point of out is that we have two years (possibly more) to figure it out and negotiate with the EU under Article 50. I’m pretty sure the model will include EFTA and EEA membership. The biggest political issue of our generation is the mass migration of millions of people from the middle east and north africa into Europe. You underestimate the electorate if you think they will be happy that the EU is in charge of our borders and immigration policy in this circumstance. We are leaving we have the momentum and the remain campaign is laughable and threadbare. I did not believe out would stand a chance against the establishment and its stooges but i’m being proved wrong.

                • MrBishi

                  EFTA membership is available now including Schengen (open borders).
                  You actually deserve us to join EFTA.
                  Of all the halfwits I debate with you are by far the most stupid.
                  EFTA indeed, what a hoot.

                • MikeBrighton

                  You are easily the most stupid of the debaters on here characterised by your continual inability to debate the issues and concentrate on a combination of purile insults demonstrating your inexperience; and a basic lack of knowledge of the EU or economics.
                  We left EFTA in 1973 when we joined the then EEC and yes it’s available now but er we would have to leave the EU.

                • MrBishi

                  You clearly do not remember what you post here 5 minutes after posting it.
                  Memory loss is common among halfwits.

                • MikeBrighton

                  Right fool.
                  Why oh why do you want us to become a province of a German dominated and run European superstate??????

                • MrBishi

                  Silly talk.

                • MikeBrighton

                  You won’t answer! You can’t even answer THE fundamental question regarding EU membership. You really are an idiot.

                • MrBishi

                  You appear to be suffering

                • MikeBrighton

                  It is you who is suffering from a great many delusions

                • MrBishi

                  You appear to be suffering under the delusion that I have the slightest interest in the ignorant rubbish you spout.

                • MikeBrighton

                  Pathetic just doesn’t do that comment justice. How about pitiful or even derisory or lamentable. You can’t even answer the basic question EUphiles need to answer. You rightly ask what leaving will look like but you can’t say why you want to stay and become part of a German-dominated European superstate.
                  Do you intend to start learning german, here’s one du bist ein Idiot.

                • MrBishi

                  And still you are here.
                  If I send you a signed photo will you foxtrot oscar?

                • MikeBrighton

                  Oh yes please it shows you’re able to write.
                  How’s your German coming along given you’ll probably need it on the EU superstate you clearly want us to be in

                • MrBishi

                  Nicht schlecht, aber ich habe mehr Arbeit zu tun, bevor ich bereit sein wird, die Herrenrasse zu verbinden.
                  Signed photo on best quality gloss paper in genuine silver plated frame on its way.

                • Foxy Loxy

                  Yes, it’s probably a good thing that you closed Flexcit: it’s always best not to read publications which would invalidate your arguments.

                • MrBishi

                  I have a dream that the Brexits will go for EFTA and then complain when we sign up to Schengen.

            • dickhut

              You may, ,resaonably, disagree with those of us who support Brexit but descending into personal abuse only weakens your case, suggesting that you are getting desperate.

              • MrBishi

                When people write garbage to me I will always call them halfwits.

                • Nan Tucks Ghost

                  Even when they’re not, revealing the weakness of your case.

                • dickhut

                  That comment marks you down as a thorough ignoramus – one who defines any opinion at variance with his own as that of a ‘halfwit’. You are deserving of the sympathy of more intelligent and reasonable people.

                • MrBishi

                  I fail to see how the correct use of the English language can ever be wrong:
                  “halfwit (ˈhɑːfˌwɪt )
                  Definitions
                  noun
                  a feeble-minded person
                  a foolish or inane person”

                • dickhut

                  Congratulations! You define yourself perfectly

            • Foxy Loxy

              Which ‘Brexit crew’?

              • MrBishi

                Everyone who supports Brexit.

            • PaD

              Efta shengen Blah blah.soon to be history

              • MrBishi

                If you really believe that, why risk leaving when waiting could give the opportunity to pick the low hanging fruit?

    • ButcombeMan

      The Brexit case is overwhelming, that is why the mood in the country is changing.

      • MrBishi

        The mood of the country is a function of a failed education system.

        • ButcombeMan

          The mood in the country is very much a function of Blair’ s deceit to get the UK into Iraq and Brown’s “Big Brown Economic Mess” from which we have still not recovered.

          • MrBishi

            The “economic mess” was caused by American bankers fraudulently marking up sub-prime mortgage backed securities as AAA.
            In fact the UK deficit was less under Brown when the banking system collapsed than it was when the Tories left office.

            • fundamentallyflawed

              The US problems only highlighted the weaknesses in our banking structures… as well as the madness that Brown let lose letting banks dictate mortgages over even the inflated house values of the day

              • MrBishi

                Halfwit.

                • fundamentallyflawed

                  Yes indeed but he was Prime Minister…….

            • ButcombeMan

              Northern Rock was a British bank, taking UK deposits, lending to British people. It was the canary in the mine and it was supervised by a system created by the supreme “Great Leader and telephone chucker”. the most incompetent Chancellor since WW2.

              There was also that other canary in the mine, Brown’s fraudulent, loss making, gold sales to support the carry trade.

              Brown and Greenspan are both guilty.

              Greenspan has apologized.

              • MrBishi

                Halfwit.

                • ButcombeMan

                  I do so love, exposing the intellectually inadequacy of sad people like you.

                  Many thanks for your thoughtful considered response and contribution.

                • MrBishi

                  You have nothing sensible to say; but feel welcome to post to me when you have.

            • MikeBrighton

              Oh yes absolutely nothing to do with the UK Labour government eh? They regulated the banks so well didn’t they, running a primary deficit during the years of “boom” and so on and so on. Funny that the “greatest ever chancellor Mr. Brown” barely ever appears in public…could it be because we all know Labour’s stewardship of the economy was simply disasterous.

              • MrBishi

                Nothing at all – as you rightly say.
                The UK deficit was lower under Brown – when the banking collapse happened – than it was when the previous Tory government left office.
                You never did like facts, did you Mike?

                • MikeBrighton

                  Right. Labour’s economic stewardship was simply calamitous. They presided over the biggest economic crash since the 1930s. The economy of the UK contracted in 2008-9 by about -4.7%.

                  Even if I accept that it was “Evil US Investment Bankers” that did it you need to answer
                  – Why did Northern Rock go POP!
                  – Why did AIG go POP, when all its losses were incurred in er the UK
                  – Why did LLoyds and RBS go POP, they were not US banks!
                  etc etc

                  In any event whatever the circumstances the UK was woefully unprepared and the policy decisions made were appalling, we suffered the biggest economic contraction since the 1930s under Labour….explain that!

                • MrBishi

                  Why do you think I will waste my time explaining economics to a halfwit?

                • MikeBrighton

                  I don’t think you have a clue. When you resort to insults when I have been nothing than civil you have lost!

                • MrBishi

                  A civil halfwit is still a halfwit.

                • MikeBrighton

                  You haven’t got a clue whatsoever you insult because you can’t answer fool

                • MikeBrighton

                  I’m sure you believe this is right but to pretend that the UK government had no role or were in-no-way-accountable for the economic crisis in the UK is simply not credible. This was the judgement in the last election.

                • MrBishi

                  What I wrote was factual.
                  You are, however, quite correct to point out that the Labour party made no effort to correct this Tory lie and – to be fair – the guilty man, Ed Balls, paid with his political career.

                • MikeBrighton

                  It’s not a lie, Labour was a disaster. They paid for it with a crushing defeat at the election.

                • MrBishi

                  From the Tory book of political history.

                • MikeBrighton

                  Economic fact is economic fact.
                  – failure to properly regulate the financial system
                  – failure to build up a bail out find of form of bank insurance
                  – failure of policy to control the housing market, they actively encourage the boom and dined out on it
                  – failure to see the Euro as a disaster waiting to happen, Blair wanted us to join! Failure to act on the imbalances or influence the EU to correct them
                  – failure to put government spending on a sustainable fiscal basis – raising public spending from 34.5% of GDP to 47.7% of GDP beyond the growth rate in the economy as a whole and hence funded by cyclical tax revenues which evaporated during the bust
                  – presiding over an economic crisis that shrank the economy by -4.7% of GDP the largest decline since the 1930s
                  – increased inequality from 1997-2010; increased Gini
                  – increasing public debt from 40% of GDP t
                  60% by 2010
                  – wasting public money on an industrial scale c£26bn flushed down the lav
                  – running a primary deficit during the years of “boom” rather than a surplus

                  charged and guilty.

                  You’re an idiot

                • MrBishi

                  During the run up to the banking collapse, the Tory party were calling for LESS banking regulation not more.
                  It was Gordon Brown who stopped Tony Blair from entering the euro.
                  I’m sure I’ve said to you before that Tony Blair is and was a Tory.
                  Goerge Osborne has added more to our public debt in 5 years that Gordon Brown did in 11 years.
                  You keep pushing the lies, though, they are popular on this blog.

                • MikeBrighton

                  a) Yes the Tories are idiots, just less idiotic that Labour. We don’t need LESS regulation or MORE regulation, just effective and well thought through (prudential) regulation. Labour were utterly incapable of this. Why? They are plutocrats taking money by kissing the arses of the rich and in return for the cheek kissing they got money to fund their harebrained schemes. And soft loans and donations in return for peerages…..
                  b) Blair who I seem to recall was Labour leader and PM wanted to join, as did all the Labour leadership. Brown opposed it just to annoy Blair and because it was a loss of his power. Keeping us out of the Euro was the only good thing he (and Balls) did.
                  c) Blair was Labour leader, calling him a Tory does not get you off the hook for his truly appalling disaster in office
                  d) Osborne is an utter idiot but I seem to observe that in order NOT to double our public debt he would have had to cut spending massively – he didn’t. I’m sure you would have had something to say had he truly slashed public spending. If you know anything about economics you’ll understand the concept of debt trajectory, so a lot of this huge debt is actually again the fault of calamity Brown.

                  e)

            • Wessex Man

              and this why of course that the European Commissioners are currently negotiating with the USA to bring in TTIP which was so heavily redacted when presented to the European Parliament it was rendered unreadable.

              Soon if we stay in the American Corporations will have the right to take European Governments to Court if not allowed to buy up their health services, or frack in their countries, just as they have done in South America.

              • MrBishi

                Non sequitur.
                TTIP is “simply” (it has taken some 15 years to negotiate) a FTA.

        • Andrew Cole

          A failed education system due to Bliar that Gove got stuck into no matter how much flack he got from those who had gotten to like the easy life.

          • MrBishi

            Tony Blair is a Tory.

            • Andrew Cole

              Tony Bliar may not be a socialist but he is most definitely not a conservative and nor is Cameron!!!

              • MrBishi

                He certainly looks like a Tory.
                Inequality rose under his governance. Who else does that other than a Tory?

    • MikeBrighton

      Threadbare defined as winning all the intellectual arguments so far. On current trend the out vote is winning hands down.

      • MrBishi

        The Brexit case is unable to say what form Brexit will take. Only a halfwit would consider that to be a winning argument.

        • Nan Tucks Ghost

          Unlike the remain case, who can’t begin to say what form remain will take because it is not in their hands. But that’s ok with you apparently.

          • MrBishi

            Remain is much the same as it is no, what’s to add?

            • Nan Tucks Ghost

              Remain and in are the same in the referendum context. I’ve used ‘remain’ because it forms part of the referendum question, ie …

              Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

              Remain a member of the European Union

              Leave the European Union

              And what’s to add? That you are in a far more shaky position than Brexiteers are in insisting we don’t know what form Brexit will take.

              • MrBishi

                Can I phone a friend on this one?

                • Nan Tucks Ghost

                  All of us can do whatever we please.

            • MikeBrighton

              There is no status quo. We are members of a German-dominated European superstate or we are not.

              • MrBishi

                Back to ill-informed garbage.

                • MikeBrighton

                  Hilarious is that your penetrating analysis?? I have eyes and can see that the EU is a German dominated superstate to be. Are you saying it isn’t??????????

                • MrBishi

                  Halfwit.

        • ButcombeMan

          form?
          Brexit is Brexit, we get out of the political union, we regain control of our borders, regain our fishing grounds, regain our rightful seat on the WTO, as befits the worlds 5th largest economy. Stop paying ANY subscriptions

          During the two years prescribed for leaving negotiations under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, we conclude at least an interim free trade agreement between the UK and EU countries, not a replica of any other arrangement, one unique to the UK and especially unique to our relationship with RoI because we must protect that country.

          A founding principle of the UK’s negotiation stance during those negotiations, is that the UK will not seek to impose any WTO tariffs on EU manufactured goods as long as the EU reciprocates. Since the balance of trade is very much in the EUs favour ,YET the EU needs high value UK exports in some of its own exports (Airbus, car engines etc) that negotiation should not be difficult.
          Interim arrangements for agricultural produce, both ways, would be included. Several EU countries need that, not least, RoI, Denmark, the Netherlands, Poland, France, Italy, Spain etc
          Only a half wit or a troll would not understand.

          • MrBishi

            Lol.
            QED.

            • ButcombeMan

              I very much appreciate the high intellectual content that went into that response.. It so useful to have considered debate with those one might not instinctively agree with. To learn and understand each others point of view.

              I assume, that since you do not attempt rebuttal of my points, that you accept them and are a convert.

              • MrBishi

                I try to avoid debating with halfwits.

                • ButcombeMan

                  I rather think that you recognize that if you did engage, with some proper argument, I and others would make mincemeat of you.

                  You are one of those sad internet trolls with no contribution except one line interjections.

                • MrBishi

                  In your dreams.

        • Dadad1

          You obviously haven’t read all 400 pages of Flexcit (qv). The complete brexit plan is there, from beginning to end; it is a process, not a single event.

          I suggest you read it thoroughly before making any more comments.

          • Bluesman_1

            He won’t

          • MrBishi

            I have dealt with this to mikebrighton.

        • MikeBrighton

          The Leave campaign is hardly winning with it stellar intellectual arguments so far. The Calais jungle moving to Folkestone and contrary to all observable evidence apparently leaving the EU will cause us to suffer more terrorism……
          That’s threadbare.

          • MrBishi

            There can be no doubt that UK borders will move to the UK if we leave the EU, the French loath the arrangement.
            That will increase by 50,000 per year the number of asylum seekers arriving in the UK.
            Before you challenge the figure of 50,000 extra, that’s the number before the move of our border to Calais.
            Cameron was a fool to suggest that migrant camps will set up in Kent and I have said so.

            • MikeBrighton

              Clearly the French signed the Le Touquet agreement against their will and interests doing us a favour just because we are in the EU and their best mates. Riiiight. LOL !!!!
              It’s actually in their interests, all you say is just Remain PR and nonsense.
              Clearly leaving the EU and obtaining control of our borders and immigration policy will cause an additional 50,000 asylum seekers….good luck with trying to persuade people of that! LOL again.
              Not just Cameron being a fool the whole Remain campaign so far is laughable and has fallen apart every time under scrutiny. LOVE IT.

              • MrBishi

                Whatever.
                I think that the electorate will believe the French politicians who have said that they are just waiting for us to leave so that they can pull the plug.
                But – as you point out – it will come down to who the electorate believe.
                Cameron might be a lazy fool – time will tell – but others in Europe are joining the debate with facts and they will destroy the Brexit campaign.

                • MikeBrighton

                  Not being destroyed so far……I’d put the score at 3-0 to out so far.
                  The point about Calais is simply laughable and is the remain campaign trying to overcome its huge disadvantage re borders and immigration…it’s not working…..

        • aristophanes

          Brexit opens up vistas of choice. Politicians and civil servants will be able to think again, instead of implementing EU directives like zombie apparatchiks.

          • MrBishi

            More ill-informed garbage.

            • aristophanes

              The opinion of a civil servant.
              Thank you for your courteous post.

              • MrBishi

                You really don’t want to know my opinion of civil servants, retired or not.

                • aristophanes

                  Thank you for your post.

        • Lady Magdalene

          The Remain camp has no idea what form our servitude will take either. What they DO know is that the 5 Presidents Report is likely to be the basis for the next treaty but the outcome is unknown. However, EVERY EU Treaty results in loss of Sovereignty, so I think we can be confident that that will be at least part of the outcome.

          • MrBishi

            More garbage.
            We have a veto on any treaty change we dislike and our sovereignty is vested in parliament.

            • Nan Tucks Ghost

              How do you equate your view with directives, regulations and decisions being legally binding, and deviations being subject to judgement from the European Courts of Justice. Its decisions are superior to national courts.

              How can Parliament be sovereign?

              • MrBishi

                The ECHJ is NOTHING to do with the EU.

                • Nan Tucks Ghost

                  Eh? The European Courts of Justice IS an EU institution.

                  If you mean the ECHR, it is not correct to say it’s nothing to do with the EU. Membership of the first is a requirement of the second. The EU itself is due to acede to the ECHR, and the EU claims this will ‘strengthen’ human rights throughout the EU.

                • MrBishi

                  Sorry, you are absolutely correct, my mistake.
                  However, the ECJ can only rule on EU treaties which the UK signed up to because parliament authorised them.
                  I really don’t want to argue with you over parliament being sovereign, it is and that’s the end of the matter.
                  http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/sovereignty/

                • Nan Tucks Ghost

                  Parliament had sovereignty to sign treatie. Every time it the government signed a treaty Parliament lost sovereignty for the areas covered in that treaty. As a result it has lost sovereignty piece by piece.

                  If you want this to be the end of the matter, you need a source which explains how Parliament can legally disregard EU directives, laws, regulations and decisions. If you can’t, you lose.

                • MrBishi

                  Take your argument up with the parliamentary library, I am not interested in your opinion.

                • Nan Tucks Ghost

                  I’ve taken this fact up with you because you are here insisting we are sovereign whilst at the same time be unable to explain how we can be when we are bound to implement directives, decisions and regulations from the EU.

                  I’m sure you’re not interested in my opinion. Clearly it doesn’t sit well with what you want to believe.

    • Holly

      It is not important whether either case is ‘threadbare’, or indeed which group Gove joins.

      What IS important is, what and how do the voters feel.
      Are they happy to continue down the path we have been shoved down so far?

      You know those, ‘racist’/’bigoted’/’little Englanders, our politicians have been on about for years whenever they dare bring to light the lack of power our politicians hold to enable us to govern ourselves, and they might have to ‘explain’ themselves.

      Do the voters trust our politicians to suddenly stand up to European politicians, when for years they have simply stood by.

      The public is coming to this referendum from a completely different perspective and direction than the politicians and media groupies.

      The case to leave may well seem ‘threadbare’ to you, but to the public, who have had to endure the consequences of our membership, oh boy, to them their case is watertight.

      • MrBishi

        I doubt very much whether the UK electorate will vote to leave the EU, if for no other reason that the Brexit crew haven’t got a clue what they want.
        My only caveat is that Cameron’s performance to date has been miserable.

    • Malcolm Marchesi

      In fact it is the “remain” case which is threadbare , as you put it . It consists almost entirely of grossly overblown scare stories and smear tactics . It is shameful that those who favour remaining are unable to say anything constructive to support their own position . Alot of what they come out with is actually dishonest . Why should that surprise anyone ?

      • MrBishi

        It is the Brexit case which is dishonest they won’t even say if they want EFTA or a full exit.
        Cameron is simply incompetent and appears to know little about the subject.

        • Malcolm Marchesi

          We obviously will not agree about this but every “out ” speaker of note that I have heard has called for a complete exit . As far as Cameron goes , he may well be incompetent but he and his cabal are also dishonest . Of the two failings , I’m not sure which is the worst !

          • MrBishi

            I have yet to here ANY Brexit speaker say that they want fully out.
            I only ever hear a mix of wishes.

  • fred finger

    There is only so long you can sit on the fence. If he goes for exit he cannot be luke warm about it. I do like Gove, But I cannot see him getting enthusiastically behind the exit, he has shown little signs so far.

  • Bonkim

    Gove is an intellectual and will make the right choice.

  • jazz606

    It doesn’t matter which way Gove goes. If he was worth anything he’d have declared himself by now.

    • Bonkim

      That is not the way of politics.

    • telemachus

      He is perhaps the most hated chap in Cabinet
      The teachers dispatched him
      He is dangerous in office and behind the scenes
      But his popular appear matches his looks
      Just what was Sarah thinking of

      • ButcombeMan

        Gove’s changes, have benefited the education system, particularly for under 11s

        • telemachus

          But at what cost
          His Govian Educational Social Darwinism left thousands to rot in substandard schools while he diverted resources to shiny new Free Schools
          He exacerbated the divide from top to bottom in education
          He should be hounded from politics

          • Hayekian

            Quite right, those thousands were getting a wonderful progressive education in what a wonderful thing mass immigration is, how all the major movers and shakers in our history have been people from minorities (except of course where we did something wrong in which case it had nothing to do with them), how everything we have done in our history has been bad and wrong (except where it was done by one of the aforementioned minorities) ,how spending well beyond our means is completely acceptable and sustainable, how things like academic standards and rigor are outdated concepts and how people shouldn’t really aspire to any betterment of their situation because it betrays their class roots.
            Then Gove comes along and spoils it all, and he would have got away with it too if anyone had thought for a second about the pesky kids.

            • telemachus

              The actual problem was that he plonked his new shiny school next to the failing school leaving it to wither over years and thus condemning those children without engaged parents to get progressively worse education throughout their formative years
              But that was OK
              That is educational social Darwinism
              Hitler understood

              • Hayekian

                quite right, much better to leave everyone in the failing school than get some of them out of it…

              • Wessex Man

                You are blind to all the shocking wasted lives caused by Blair and Brown, you don’t care that from Major onward out children if we were daft enough to let them attend State Schools were never educated in the way that we were.

                The problem with State Education in the last thirty years is that it has been run in the best interest of the Teachers, just as the Health Service has been run in the best interests of Health ‘Professionals.’

                My weren’t they a wonderful example to us all on the Pocket lines bellowing that they were on strike to ‘save the NHS’.

                I was left wondering were all those charitably expressed tubby women really Junior Doctors or patients.

                • telemachus

                  You learn well from Gove
                  Lambast hardworking overstretched professionals
                  A good motivational ploy

                • Wessex Man

                  Find me some hardworking overstretched professionals and I’ll shake their hands tele babe!

              • Little Black Censored

                Ooh, Hitler! Next up, the Sky Fairy.

          • Andrew

            “But at what cost” It does not matter at what cost, you selfish freeloader

          • ButcombeMan

            Gove undermined the Guardianista blob, clarified that it existed and the damage it had done and introduced new rigour

            • telemachus

              At what cost
              Gove alienated every teacher in the country and this more than anything led to a decline in education standards
              You have to value your workforce
              (H)unt is one worse

              • ButcombeMan

                Some not every,
                Standards have certainly gone up because of Gove.
                Some teachers who were just not up to it, may have to leave the profession or sharpen their performance, no bad thing.

          • Ringstone

            Quite right, far better that all children (except those of Labour politicians of course) be left to rot in substandard schools – much more egalitarian.
            “Socialism…the equal sharing of misery” Churchill.

      • Hayekian

        You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life. Winston Churchill.
        Cameron and the other vegetables have never stood up for anything, which is why when push came to shove, Cameron bravely ran away…

        • telemachus

          Time moves on
          We want consensus now

          • Hayekian

            who is this we, you speak of ?
            Eternal laws cannot be repealed, not even by progressives, vested interests will always fight to maintain their position

          • Lady Magdalene

            Consensus is a CON. It means people in positions of responsibility don’t bother thinking for themselves.

            • telemachus

              The alternative is dictatorship
              Leaders can suggest but must listen to legitimate concerns

              • Richard Baranov

                You have made it perfectly clear elsewhere that as a Stalinist,you would be quite happy with a dictatorship. your sort, a dictatorship of course, socialist terrorism.

              • DWWolds

                And consensus so easily drifts into groupthink, which is what ultimately leads to dictatorship.

          • Wessex Man

            and a narrative tele babe, never forget your socialist narratives! Power to the people Wolfie tele babe!

      • saffrin

        The electorate ejected Parliament’s most hated Ed Balls from Parliament at the last election.

        • telemachus

          The charismatic one was the biggest loss to England since Iain Macleod

          • ButcombeMan

            The “charismatic one”, via his silly hand waving and utter triviality at PMQs, plus his absence of a sane economic policy, largely caused Labour’s downfall at the last election.

          • Andrew Cole

            The charismatic one? Oh how facebook lit up in the moments after his ousting.

    • Mynydd

      If he was woo

    • The Masked Marvel

      He surely has his mind made up already about which is ultimately better for the country. But waiting until Cameron comes back with this fig leaf ‘deal’ does give him the appearance of having given Cameron and In a fair chance before Leaving. So it does matter a bit.

    • John Steadman

      Exactly.

    • PaD

      Like the rest of them…career before country.

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