Coffee House

Is the next Steve Jobs really among Syria’s migrants?

16 February 2016

4:28 PM

16 February 2016

4:28 PM

Steven Pinker famously observed in The Blank Slate that ‘Sophisticated people sneer at feel-good comedies and saccharine romances in which all loose ends are tied and everyone lives happily ever after. Yet when it comes to the science of human beings, this same audience says: Give us schmaltz.’

The same is true of the politics of human beings, where educated people want stories of individuals overcoming the odds, and hate discussing depressing, but more useful, overall patterns.

A good example is the recent meme that among the recent Syrian influx may be the next Steve Jobs, a theme repeated by that hugely profound modern-day genius Banksy.

Jobs’s biological father was a Syrian migrant, therefore the logic goes, among the hundreds of thousands of migrants there will be another Steve Jobs. The story came up in this BBC piece, where it recalled:

His son, Steve Jobs, became one of the most creative entrepreneurs, revolutionising industries from personal computers through animated movies and music to mobile phones and digital publishing.

In the current refugee crisis that might look like a fairy-tale, but it is not that implausible. 

While immigrant youngsters might face cultural, social and economic disadvantages, the top 10% of 15-year-old students with an immigrant background in the United States did just as well as the top 10% without an immigrant background, as measured by the international Pisa tests.

[Alt-Text]


The title of the piece is ‘Migrant students more motivated to learn’, but what the statistics actually show is that some migrant groups on average are more motivated to learn, and some on average are less. In Britain, Chinese and Indian pupils vastly outperform English kids at school, while Pakistani and African-Caribbean pupils do worse on average. As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, there is no such thing as ‘immigrants’; and the problem with stereotypes is not that they’re untrue, but that the larger the group stereotyped, the cruder and less useful they are. Saying ‘immigrants’ are ‘motivated’, or ‘dynamic’, or on the other hand ‘lazy’ or ‘criminal’, is unhelpful, but we can nevertheless observe closer patterns.

And in fact migrant school scores vary hugely on a micro-level, so even among Nigerians in Britain there are big averages between Yoruba and Igbo. The Igbo scores would not necessarily surprise any African, but in the West no one wants to hear such cold statistics, because suggesting that migrants from some ethnic groups do better on average than others goes against the schmaltzy narrative of individual triumph. We’d much rather hear about Mo Farah than his less inspiring but less atypical brother.

Throughout the Merkel debacle we’ve heard repeated references to the stories of Huguenots and Russian Jews, two previous groups of refugees who both did well here. Do their stories tell us anything about Middle Eastern migrants today?

Probably not, because to make any sort of argument about migration without breaking down the statistics is useless bordering on the absurd; by all means if people want to hear about the triumph of the individual over their backgrounds, then good for them, but don’t make it the basis of government policy.

Steve Jobs’s father also went to the American University in Beirut, one of the best in the Middle East. His own father was a phenomenal businessman who owned several villages in Syria; the Apple boss no doubt inherited his grandfather’s astute intelligence, but does this reveal much about the new influx of Syrians? We don’t know, but we can get a pretty rough idea from looking at TIMSS (Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study) scores.

National test scores won’t tell us everything about the prospects of emigrants, who may come from particular social classes (Nigerians in Britain are typically better educated than Nigerians in Nigeria) but a dull, statistical look at the TIMSS stats from 2007 does not suggest Sweden and Germany have necessarily taken in the next Steve Jobs, given how low Syria ranks. It could be the case, but the statistics aren’t necessarily that convincing.

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But when it comes to politics, people would rather read fairy tales; alas, in the case of multiculturalism, the fairy tale may be The Emperor’s New Clothes.

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Show comments
  • MathMan

    No!

  • Vuil

    Jobs was half Syrian. As is the standard Western narrative the white component is ignored and the brown component talked up. Both Obama and Jobs are excellent examples of this phenomenon.

  • Chamber Pot

    Oh, FFS !

  • King Zog

    It’s not whether the current wave of migrants contains a potential Jobs, but whether it contains a potential Woz.

    • ProfessorPistov

      Exactly. But Wozniak was Polish/English/German/Swiss/Irish origins

  • Fraser Bailey

    Perhaps the next Steve Jobs is among them. Quite a number of them are, funnily enough, as unpleasant and single-minded as Jobs obviously was (and I speak as someone who loves his second-hand Apple computers).

    But it would be much better if the next Steve Jobs were to stay in the ME or Africa and bring some prosperity to those places.

  • http://posnetres.blogspot.co.uk/ Noah Carl
  • Lawrence James.

    Any foreigner contemplating the noisome pot pourri of hatred and suspicion contained in most of this remarks would beat a path to his homeland. He would wrong of course, for, despite these outpourings of bile, we are a civilised, humane and good-humoured people.

  • evad666

    Now there was I thinking Steve Jobs father was the Christian immigrant from Syria.

  • wjr123

    Only if the new Steve (or whatever) is building ways to improve beheading.

    • JSC

      Perhaps the new Steve will make a new exciting app: “Stalkr”, like Tindr but rather than arranging to meet up with a girl for a date, it lets you know the nearest female in your vicinity that you can sexually assault…

  • invention13

    It’s not so much allowing them to settle as how it is being done. There are some obvious things:

    Screen single males of ‘military age’ very carefully.
    Have a preference for intact families, older people.
    Disperse geographically – don’t let enclaves form where assimilation is optional. On that note, re-settle away from large cities.
    Zero tolerance for crimes committed – deport immediately if tried and convicted.
    Overhaul the vetting procedures – after San Bernadino, does anyone really believe they couldn’t be improved?

    I’m all for helping people, but we don’t have to be stupid about it.

  • trobrianders

    What have Muslims given the world?

    • AlOmega

      The suicide vest?

    • King Zog

      More Muslims?

  • hannahkatz

    Another Steve Jobs? More likely another Ted Bundy. Or worse. Like the Boston Marathon bombers.

  • trvlingengmgr

    And here I was hoping for the next George Washington in that group of Syrian immigrants… LMAO! If that is the case, then I say let Saudi Arabia or Egypt get the next Steve Jobs.

  • The Patriarchy

    The Jobs argument is as unconvincing as the nonsense about the Somalis and the little runner chappie. According to that soapy nonsense a hundred thousand useless benefits scroungers are apparently a price worth paying for Mr Farah.

    Well Mr Farah has now legged to to the US. Would our cousins like the other hundred thousand, to complete the set?

  • http://paulweston101.blogspot.com Paul Weston

    There may well be a future Steve Jobs amongst the Syrian (most are not actually Syrian though……) immigrants, but so what? One thing we know for sure is that there will be any number of Jihadi John’s amongst them and any number of welfare dependents. Also, the more Muslims (with high birth rates) we import, the sooner Britain becomes an Islamic State.

    So I ask again, does it really matter if one of them is an odd sort of fellow with a genius for inventing electronic tat?

  • pobjoy

    Steve Jobs was a cog in a machine.

    Like a journalist.

  • Cobbett

    So we let in millions of migrants in the off chance one turns out to be another Steve Jobs(I couldn’t give a t*ss about the original one let alone another)

    If we must have immigrants let them be Oriental babes.

  • Martin Keegan

    “big averages between”? Subs!

  • Nockian

    Well Steve Jobs was a school drop out so, the standard state education statistics mean nothing much at all. Indeed many entrepreneurs dropped out of the state education system, or were considered low achievers so there is really little correlation. Good school grades and privileged educational background do lead to employment opportunities either directly for the state, or in crony industries/charities/media.

    Everyone is a potential entrepreneur, but Britain isn’t exactly entrepreneur friendly unless you happen to choose some industry which the Government is keen to bless.

  • AlOmega

    If we should make a blanket statement on past achievements (proven ones, not imaginary ones) and use Ed West’s reasoning – we need much more jews in society to grow our economy and zero Muslims:

    How many Muslims are there in the world?
    – 1.5 billion+.

    And how many Muslims have won the Nobel price?
    – 11.

    In comparison let’s look at the jewish people.

    How many jews are there in the world?
    – Around 14 million.

    How many jews have won the Nobel price?
    – Approximately 193 of the 855 honorees have been Jewish (22%).

    • jeremy Morfey

      Interesting game this, comparing Jews to Muslims…

      I’d have though their biggest difference is that Jews do more good than harm outside their ancestral homelands, whereas with Muslims it’s about equal.

  • Jack_H

    Shabir Ahmed,one of the Rochdale child rapists is appealing his deportation order on the grounds that it contravenes his ‘Human Rights’…..he expresses no remorse or denies the appalling crimes of which he was convicted……but is appealing to the ECHR that he is being scapegoated as a Muslim and Pakistani.The man is a disgusting rapist who thinks it is fine to prey on vulnerable white children,raping them trafficking them for prostitution and plying them with alcohol and drugs and claims the treatment meted out to him is discriminatory!

    • Maureen Fisher

      Were you modded for this? I have just been.

      • Jack_H

        I just read it in the Telegraph,it’s extraordinary,the man shows no remorse and is not denying what he did but is claiming that deporting him at the end of his sentence breaches his human rights…..he has considerable savings I hope this is taken into account when allocating legal aid.

  • AlOmega

    Apart from the feeble intellect of Ed West here’s the reality based on government statistics from country after country that opened their doors to Muslim migration:

    Roughly 70-80% of Muslims become permanent sponges on the welfare system whether they are refugees, migrants or born in the country. That should give is an idea what the future with this lot will be. These migrants think the Ed West’s of the world are ‘dirty infidels’ who are obligated to work hard and pay taxes to cover their own inactive arses. It’s a form of jizya, which is an integrated part of jihad.

    And frankly the 20-30% who actally become engaged in the work-life is a far too small percentage to bring any benefit to anyone whatsoever.

  • MathMan

    I think we’d need to know more about who Steve Jobs’s mother was before commenting.

    • AlOmega

      Yes, 100% American. And Jobs was brought up in a 100% American home. The Syrian contribution was nothing but a sperm of the moment. Based on West’s reasoning that should mean we must bring in more American migrants to grow the economy.

  • AlOmega

    I laughed so hard when the headline of this article was forwarded to me. First of all, Steve Jobs mother was American. “Schieble became pregnant in 1954 when she and Jandali spent the summer with his family in Homs, Syria.” That was Jobs only connection to Syria. Nothing else. Jobs was not a refugee. He was born and raised in America by an American mother who had nothing to do with Syria or the Middle East apart from spending a few weeks there. Therefore, the entire reasoning behind the article is so absurd it’s laughable.

    Jobs never grew up with his father. And his mother never brought him up in a Muslim environment. Jobs was, in fact, adopted into a full and total American family. Jobs had nothing to do with Islamic culture or being educated (indoctrinated) and groomed under the Sharia mindset.

    The Islamic culture, which the migrants originate from, deeply discourage and even punish innovative and independent thinking, which is crucial to create a new service, product or business that changes the world. In Islam the capitalism and independence that Jobs represent is haram and not only considered forbidden, but also anti-Islamic which means it is rejected as an enemy.

    In the entire Middle East we see basically zero contributions to humanity. There is no scientific progress, no humanitarian progress, no inventions or innovations. The entire Muslim history is filled with nothing that actually creates an original thought or contributes to the progress of humanity or expansion of human knowledge: their contributions came from theft, loot and acquiring slaves with skills and knowledge to work under the caliph rulers to expand their kingdoms. Everything from architecture, writings to medicine and so on during the Muslim caliph was the creation of their infidel captives, who originated from people like the Romans, the Greeks, etc., and who created some of the greatest innovations in history.

    There is a huge shortage in the M.E. genepool that creates an innovative mindset and this shortage is emulated through the entire Muslim world. There is, however, a huge built-in abundance and a tendency to extreme violence. Yet Ed West imagines this crowd will bring some financial benefit to the West.

    To blame all their failures merely on a political elite and pretend they are all victims is a pretty weak excuse. These shortfalls and weaknesses has become a part and parcel of their entire being for the mere fact that their religion is culture, and their culture discourage innovation and independent thought. Has West even bothered to look at real stats and facts what the long-term prognosis is to Muslim migration and finances? Roughly 70-80% of Muslims become permanent sponges on the welfare system whether they are refugees, migrants or born in the country. That should give is an idea what the future with this lot will be. These migrants think the Ed West’s of the world are ‘dirty infidels’ who are obligated to work hard and pay taxes to cover their inactive arses. It’s a form of jizya, which is an integrated part of jihad.

    • Thomas Katz

      That sums it up completely

  • Thomas Katz

    “Is the next Steve Jobs really among Syria’s migrants?”
    No, but the next terrorist is!

  • stuartMilan

    of course not. and the next stupid question is…?

  • Social Justice Warrior

    all you racists believe that because they’re Arabs they’re unable to become intelligent professional people.

    this disgusting geneticly determined racism has been thouroughly debunked by all the top scientists and psychologists

    we don’t need any more rich capitalists like Steve Jobs but we do need more doctors teachers and nurses because of Tory cuts, so the more refugees the better

    #refugeeswelcome

    • Adam Carter

      Many of them arte not refugees.
      I made this point to you elsewhere. Fit military age men who have left behind their women folk, They flee from countries that are too dangerous for them but niot too dangerous for the females! And you have been unable to refute my points.
      They are not refugees, they are criminal migrants who have crashed borders here and have already caused disruption by heir attitudes and behaviour, behaviour including sexual assault and rape.
      It is you who are the racist here; you seek to excuse criminal behaviour and savagery because the criminals are brown. You are a racist.

    • AlOmega

      Maybe you need to develop some common sense and rationale before labeling others.

      How many Muslims are there in the world?
      – 1.5 billion+.

      And how many Muslims have won the Nobel price?
      – 11.

      In comparison let’s look at the jewish people.

      How many jews are there in the world?
      – Around 14 million.

      How many jews have won the Nobel price?
      – Approximately 193 of the 855 honorees have been Jewish (22%).

    • Hamburger

      Has anyone said that Arabs are all stupid? Not that I am aware of. There are many intelligent educated ones, probably more so than you and certainly more than me who could be easily integrated. They are, as in every society in the minority. The vast majority are far more difficult to integrate. It would be the same if a million Britons or Germans were decamped to the Middle East. The integration would be catastrophic. As a little example, look at the enclaves of British and German nationals in Spain and Portugal who fail to integrate over thirty years.

    • sidor

      You are saying unintelligible nonsense. Arabs isn’t a race. They aren’t genetically determined. Compare a Saudi Arab with that from Morocco.

      We are talking about cultural traditions. The Saudi Arabs have never been noticed interested in any science. Historically, they were busy with camel riding and memorising Quran.

  • Sean L

    Being disdainful of things with mass appeal is of a piece with regarding the same masses as objects of pity, both signalling one’s own superiority over them.

  • JohnCrichton89

    The same could also be said of African/black communities, complete failure to integrate across every country they enter, poor academic achievement/ability, weak economic activity, high crime rate, demands the semi-successful system that exists be catered to suit their under achieving tribal culture and special privileges be granted to them.
    I think no one or not as many would openly say ‘letting them live among us was one of the worst mistakes’. Even behind the anonymity of an internet pseudonym nobody would say something needs to be done, in the UK they make up 3% of the population and 15% of the prison population and their ancestry goes back 50years for 99%, if even. Why is one discussion OK and the other not. Just one of the many things I don’t get about this mess.

    • Mongo

      according to Leftists it’s all our fault because we’re failing them

      when I was at school, even before the mass immigration disaster precipitated by New Labour, it was usually the Afro-Carribean kids who disrupted the entire class with their complete inability/unwillingness to behave, follow instructions or listen to the teachers

    • Damaris Tighe

      Although I think the failure of many afro-caribbeans is as much about ‘lower class’ third world culture as Islamic immigration, the convo has moved on for two reasons:

      1) Since the 80s (when there was a huge problem with ‘blacks’ compared to ‘Asians’), many of West Indian descent have now integrated into the middle class, probably because they came from strict Christian families, unlike many of their compatriots who sunk into an underclass of one parent ‘families’.

      2) It’s much easier to talk about Islamic immigration because it can focus on religion & culture, whereas the question of afro-caribbean immigration can look like a discussion of race, whereas as I said above, in reality it’s still a question of culture.

    • AlOmega

      That’s because they’re total racists. It’s always the foreign racist communities who refuse to integrate.

  • Gilbert White

    We know Jobs obsessed on a Jewish folksinger who embraced rock.

  • http://ecclesandbosco.blogspot.com/ ecclesiam

    The next great pioneer won’t be turning up. He was aborted.

    • pobjoy

      Can’t curb the supply for priests, can we.

  • pobjoy

    People who use the pretentious non-word ‘meme’ and believe that paederasts turn bread into God flock together.

  • Polly Radical

    Excellent piece.

    I have no idea what ‘Yoruba and Igbo’ mean, but do I need to?

    Probably not.

    • Social Justice Warrior

      educate your ignorance

      • Polly Radical

        H ha ha

  • Sue Smith

    No. Any further questions?

  • AdrianM

    The odds are pretty poor, we’ve already spawned an indigenous Jonathan Ive. I think I’ll pass on that obvious ploy to allow them in on the basis of a game of genius spotting.

  • Kasperlos

    One important disaster example is the NHS. Importing and hiring questionable (in terms of bonafide degrees, quality of education in their home countries) immigrant physicians has caused patients in this country to suffer at times from botched surgery to miscommunication in which a diagnosis goes undetected, untreated. The NHS hiring a 45 year old psychologist – steeped in his/her own cultural upbringing – direct from a non-Western third or fourth world country to treat native Brits is insanity. I mean can one imagine when the native Brit goes for treatment, where does any logical/meaningful conversation betwixt the two even begin?! Insanity! National Horror Show.

    • Damaris Tighe

      And imagine these scenarios: a gay person, a woman dressed as ‘uncovered meat’, a Jew wearing a kippah or with medical records from his stay in Israel, having to consult with a Muslim GP sometimes sporting a full beard or hijab.

  • Ralph

    Jobs father was Syrian, not him, and ditched the young Steve to return home. Is that the best role model they can find?

  • sidor

    The real Arabs (Sunni) are known to show very little predisposition to science and education. The classical Islamic Renaissance occurred in quite different areas: Baghdad, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Iran, that is on the territory of the ancient Aramaic civilisation. The real Arabs, who traditionally lived south of that territory, have never demonstrated any advances in any science.

    Therefore, the current 1 million of refugees from Syria, mainly defeated supporters of ISIS, are perfectly useless for any intellectual applications. The limit of what they can do is to memorise Quran.

    • Ingmar Blessing

      Well, we will have extensive opportunities to test on them our latest crowd-control, surveillance technology and maybe some new weapons of whatever destructive level. *Irony off*

      • sidor

        I am always laughing when the problem of (non-lethal) crowd control is discussed as a newly emerged problem that requires a new technological solution. 100 years ago in the Russian Empire units of mounted cossacks were used for that purpose with great success. A hundred of these professional horsemen using their special weeps was able to disperse any crowd. They were also able to pursue the perpetrators in any city terrain including stairs and narrow passages. And they also has their swords to dissuade any attempt of violent resistance.

        • Ingmar Blessing

          Interesting point. Here is a counter technique: Ropes for the horses to stumble and knives to injure them.

          Maybe something present-day can be done with motorcycles – or segways;-)

          • sidor

            Imagine a hundred horsemen riding full speed, whistling and waving their whips. The crowd runs in panic. Anyone attempting an armed resistance will be turned into a mince meat within a minute by their swords.

            • Ingmar Blessing

              You are probably right on the effectiveness of corsacs, a problem tough may occur when you consider their “price-value”. A horse is expensive, it needs special training and the horsemen are specialists. One unit horse+man costs you at least 100.000 Euro per year – that’s why only dentists can afford a horse for their daughters;-)

              To effectively use them as main tool of crowd control in a country like Germany or Britain, you’d need at least 1000 cossacks on duty, another 1000 as reserve, 1000 who have the day off and 1000 that are in training – assuming you can apply them easily everywhere. That makes 400m Euro for the whole division and since they are specialized, it won’t be possible to use them eg. for traffic control and other things when times are less rough. Back in the day when cossacks were used, it was a standard unit in the military as cavalry, so they had several jobs at once and therefore the part of the costs for crowd-control were lower.

              Today it’s a bit different. A sound/micro-wave unit for example is far cheaper (US military developed one, that makes you think you skin is burning). It costs a pick-up, then the equipment and the gasoline. If not in use, you put it in a garage and you can write it off over 20 years (do that with a horse!). The policemen conducting the machine can do other things when not needed to disperse muslims on the run.

              • sidor

                You are right. There are no cossacks any more with their horses, professional horsemanship and military training which they learned since childhood. A similar culture you can probably still find in some rural areas of Mongolia.

    • Dynamo11

      Excellent point, I am forever shooting down arguments that Islam is a cultural instigator. Islamic “classical” culture was Persian in its nature, an area which was the Cradle of Civilization and so would be reach in the Arts. Of course once Islam arrived and used up such culture it ceased to produce anything useful after about the 10th century, coincidentally at the same time Europe was blasting forward at breakneck pace culturally and socially

      • sidor

        To be exact: it wast Aramaic civilisation which Persian Empire was a protector of. Aramaic was an official language in the Persian Empire. The Jews spoke Aramaic 2000 years ago. Talmud was written in Aramaic.

        On the other hand, after Alexander, the Aramaic civilisation was heavily mixed with the Hellenistic one. hellenistic Jews living in Alexandria translated the Bible into Greek. This was a cradle of our civilisation.

  • Ingmar Blessing

    I always wonder what religion Steve Jobs father had. Alevit? Christian? Drusic? Yeside? One thing for sure, it wasn’t Islam-the-real-version.

    Because otherwise he would have brought little Steve (or in that case let’s say Muhammed) into his own custody as the “tradition” of the Sharia demands. With a Sunni father, Steve Jobs would have been brought up by his grandparents in Syria. And in that case we would have gotten a Syrian Apple – or a very creative and determined version of Osama bin-Laden…

    In case of the migrants currently rushing into Germany, well, I have doubts that too many of them will turn out well. Most of the poor children will carry a terrible (and at the end repressive) memory with them because apparently child rape is endemic in the asylum centers. Our precious social industrial workers can’t even get that done: Keeping the children away from the perversely suppressed sexuality of the ~70% young adult males among the migrants who are marauding through the country.

    If it wasn’t so tragic, I’d laugh about it. At the end, we all will pay a horrendous price for this collective (and induced by the elite) naiveté.

  • LittleRedRidingHood

    ‘As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, there is no such thing as ‘immigrants’; and the problem with stereotypes is not that they’re untrue, but that the larger the group ”

    Pick up a dictionary, I believe the definition of the term is there.

  • Kasperlos

    Here we go again. The sophomoric logic employed for one-way immigration – to the West. That is you have the likes of the PM touting the benefit to Britain of South Asian migrants because they open a new curry restaurant every other day (but how many close as quickly once they have their papers). So the quick-scheme logic is that Britain should transform itself, its institutions, culture, values, its very essence of being who we are (or what’s left) for the sake of a chance that a Steve Jobs might be in the crowd of 20,000 of Cameron’s Syrian refugees. It’s akin to playing the lottery, only to buy the ticket the nation is put up as the payment. Yes, London needs more luxury property buyers until the place is a huge own to let Disneyland. The age of globalisation is a disaster for the individual. But the rule of money worship and greed has trumped all. And finally was it not Britain which triumphed with native inhabitants leading the way in the 19th century Industrial Revolution sans Syrian or other migrants swamping the place.

    • Alibogs

      In fairness, you should have read the article, because although the title is posed as a question Ed West answers ‘No’ to it straight away, then backs up his argument with statistics and good thinking. So you shouldn’t really have started your contribution, which is making the same point as he is, only in a different way with ‘Here we go again’.

      • mdj

        Perhaps these articles with a question mark are carefully crafted to wrong-foot those of us who are happy to dodge the paywall and simply read the comments!

    • Leon Wolfeson

      The “transformation” of, er, not utterly transforming. You might see someone Arab-looking, PANIC!

      Don’t complain now about the capitalism you wanted…in fact, free movement seems to offset the looting of countries economies, as seen in Africa…

  • Hybird

    Allowing Muslims to settle in the West is proving to be the biggest mistake made in the entire history of Western civilisation. It is obviously quite impossible to integrate millions of people who cling to an intolerant, violent, misogynistic, supremacist ideology that tells them they will burn in hell-fire if they have friends who do not accept this ideology. Only a madman would think that this was going to work.

    • Liberanos

      Since the next terrorist bomb, like the last, will be exploded by a devout muslim, you’re probably right.

      • Hybird

        According to David Cameron, devout Muslims have nothing to do with Islam.

        • Ivan Ewan

          Government policy used to give soundbites, and now is driven by soundbites.

          #youain’tnomuslimbruv

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            #youain’tnomuslimbruv
            Spoken by a non muslim wasn’t it?
            How did he know?

            • Ivan Ewan

              It was, and he knew because Cameron knew, and Cameron knew because this random dude knew.

        • Franky

          Cameron doesn`t think their prophet was a real Muslim.

      • red2black

        These Russian pilots are Muslims?

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Really? Let’s see.

        Nope, the last actual detonation of a bomb in Britain was done by the Real IRA.

      • Red Man

        It’s really not just a Muslim thing. I’m sure if the West had, for decades, been dropping bombs on Hindus or Buddhists as they’ve been doing to Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria etc. I guarantee you’d see terrorist reprisals in the West from Hindus and Bhuddists.

        • Liberanos

          I think you’ll find it’s a koranic thing , as with 9/11, which of course pre-dated Iraq or Syria. The old cry, ‘We were only carrying out orders.’ has real resonance when those orders come directly…in writing…from their god.

    • anotherjoeblogs

      ” Only a madman would think that this was going to work. ”

      Expect ohforheavenssake to pop up with some inane justification after racking his/her ‘ brains ‘ for 15 mins.

      • aspeckofboggart

        15 mins?! OFHS was here just a bit earlier. Next time you need to hurry up your act a little.

    • Kasperlos

      Yes, and despite the obvious the elected government and unelected elites in academia, the media, and NGOs are complicit in carrying out a ‘forced association’ social engineering programme/experiment. The native Brit in his semi-detached was never asked by HM Government to vote on the newly arrived Somali family living next them – courtesy of council-paid rent – slaughtering a goat Halal-style in the backyard for Eid/Ramadan. Insanity!

      • telemachus

        But that is the kind of xenophobic rant that drives the teenage kids of the Somali family into the hands of the radicals
        We profess to be Christian but many still behave like Celtic savages

        • Thomas Madison

          Wrong, there is a huge difference between xenophobia and an honest assessment of the situation.

        • Kasperlos

          The Celts long ago emerged from the state you call savage. It is precisely the opposite at work: the importation of the very behaviour, practises, habits, values, and mindset you ascribe to these island people. Europe’s Christians had to fend off Mohammaden invasions multiple times: Vienna, Poitiers, Spain. What is at stake is what PM Cameron himself said at the Autumn Tory party conference: ‘…an existential threat to Britain’. We are speaking here of the loss of 1,000 years of gain, to be transported head and a#se to the deserts of a 7th century Arabia death cult. If that offends, so be it. One should think that after the horrendous Saracen atrocities in Paris the UK would be rallying for a 21st century Lord Protector. Such is the peril which we face. And noted writer and historian Hilaire Belloc warned of the Islamic menace in the 1930s. As to the teenage kids, let them first spend 10 years learning, studying, and adapting to a civilised society. Then they might find succor and acceptance amongst the civlised nations of this world.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Yes, you are the peril I agree.

            • Chamber Pot

              Telemachus’s ugly stepchild blithering on about failed multiculturalism and racist straw men.

              • Leon Wolfeson

                You are? I see. Well, you keep hating on Sihks and Jews, and trying to burn people.

                • Chamber Pot

                  Can’t you spell you leftist drip ?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah, the PC bigotry and insults.
                  …And that’s all you have, I see.

        • Gebhard Von Blucher

          The Celts were not savages – you have fallen for Roman propaganda.

        • Thomas Katz

          ” but many still behave like Celtic savages”
          If only they would, and rid us of the Child Grooming, Murdering Terrorist, Misogynist, Scum, that Loony Liberals have inflicted on Britain

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Really, so you think your far right…

        • Ralph

          I tend to believe that Somali kids aren’t the sort to run to the terrorists the moment someone says something nasty. But then again I don’t infantilize the other like you do.

        • polidorisghost

          “xenophobic”?
          What happened to islamophobic Nick?
          Lost traction?

        • Cobbett

          I don’t ‘profess’ anything of the kind…and surely that’s ”African savages”.

        • Mr Moo

          So you are the legend that is Telemachus. Disappointed, I was expecting something original and delivered with a punch.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Nah, he’s just an idiot.

            (I’m a moderate leftist. Tele? He’s an idiot SWP-loving…)

        • Speedy

          The celts of 2500 years ago were far more civilised than Islam is today.

        • Ed_Burroughs

          Such Celtophobic nonsense will not be tolerated you bigot!

    • Ralph

      Muslims have lived in the West for hundreds of years and they didn’t prove a threat to us. Then of course they had to accept that they were a minority in a white Christian country, not some apparently multicultural failed utopia.

      • Kasperlos

        True in that a small number of Saracen believers would not pose harm. Fast forward, with the tidal wave of Mohammadens ensconced in the West the picture now is entirely different. Hilaire Belloc wrote of this in the 1930s in his seminal work ‘The Great Heresies’. Here he took aim at Islam’s violent history from its beginnings, and gave note that Islam could once again rise to menace the West. Another sage akin to Jean Raspail and his 1974 book ‘The Camp of the Saints’.

      • Sue Smith

        We have a Minister for Multiculturalism in our Australian parliament. Imagine how that galls!!! We’ve got every nation here, including a population which reached 24 million on the weekend, driven mostly be migration from non-European nations.

        Fortunately, and I use the word honestly, I won’t have to live in this paradise for many more decades!! Sadly, for me, I identify with European culture and the values it once espoused. It’s hard to give those up.

        My mother died in 1984 at age 58 and I remember her saying, “I’m leaving nothing; only my family”. And she’d lived during the war years as a nurse here in Australia. How prescient she was!

        • Kasperlos

          Such what you describe is played out in just about every single major Western country. Essentially the ruling elites and their paymasters have put out a ‘going out of business’ sign in front of the dwelling of every native inhabitant – save their own, of course. I have seen firsthand the sheer horrors of relatives who lived for generations in their town become strangers in only a matter of two decades! This is particularly sad for the elderly as in many cases it’s too late for them to resettle elsewhere. This total onslaught has approached an almost demonic like operation against the people by their own governments!

          • Sue Smith

            I daresay the American indians and indigenous Australians would locate the irony in all of this. But I fancy that we brought sophistication and technology to create a ‘new world’ rather than a return to medieval bigotry and violence, hatred and misogyny. I hasten to add that the Indonesian population – the biggest muslim nation – seems to live in relative peace and stability, despite their own terrorists killing the people themselves – in the name of Islam.

            • Kasperlos

              You’re correct, we the living cannot change that chapter of history. However, what was established – from the basis of the Western Tradition – is indeed worthy of maintaining in lieu of the present situation which promises only descent from our present apogee. Certainly the matter at hand is quite clear, viz., the migration from the third to the first world, read West, is proof of this. I should recall a conversation I had with a Chinese tourist not long ago. He inquired as to where I was from and I asked where he was from. He said to me China, and then, after a brief pause, said ‘China is a s’it* country.’ Only today in Hong Kong’s South China Morning Post appears the article ‘South Koreans view their country as a h’ll and want out.’ While South Korea is hardly poor (I have been there many times) it is a bit squeezed for space, but the young want freedom, to breath (and make money) and the countries of choice to escape to are:the usual: United States, Canada, Australia. Less so Europe for them. Los Angeles, California has the largest Korean population outside of, well, Korea. But the salient question in all of this is why the West. Now we are back to root, the heart of the matter: it is the values, traditions, the way we are that is attractive to the rest of the World. It’s not just the money, high rises, motorways, tube, that many countries now have. No, it’s the very essence of the Western World that is sought, something that cannot be bought. It’s also the very world now threatened with being transformed through unfettered lopsided migration under the mantra of a free for all globalisation no borders mentality into the very places from which these migrants have fled. That’s what this is about. In other words today a Korean-American living in Los Angeles doesn’t need to take a plane to Seoul to see Korea. Now the real problem is what happens when Paramatta evokes the same only a Beirut or Mogadishu.

              • Sue Smith

                With laser accuracy you’ve identified the issues!! I fully agree. And when you get the third world imports you get all the attendant problems. It’s the total identify and the long tradition and culture of Europe which is disappearing and I genuinely grieve. So much to love and so much about which to feel immense pride. But it seems only a few of us feel this way.

                America has pretty much had it, though they are a ‘can do’ nation and maybe their Korean or Chinese imports – who are very hard workers – can change things. They’ve always shown a willingness to adopt the culture and habits of the new country. That makes a difference. But they don’t have to be encouraged to do so; it is voluntary, not like the medievalists and their cults.

                I feel depressed enough about this that I’ll stop here!

            • Leon Wolfeson

              You fancy your far right, whose tools are medieval bigotry and violence, hatred and misogyny….hmm!

              And yes, funny, it’s almost like your thought crime theory is wrong.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Tip – rejection is not identification. Neither is fake crime stats.

      • Cincinnatus

        Muslims have lived in the West for hundreds of years and they didn’t prove a threat to us.

        True but many of Muslims who immigrated to the West in the 1960s and 70s were fleeing Islam.

      • AlOmega

        Did not prove a threat? Have you actually studied history? They never stopped being a threat which is why their migration was completely banned more or less everywhere through the West except France.

      • chrysostomos

        They have not lived in the West for hundreds of years, where did you get that figure from?

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Ah yes, the failure of allowing i.e. Sihks and Jews…

    • George

      “Allowing Muslims to settle in the West is proving to be the biggest mistake made in the entire history of Western civilisation.”

      How true that is, yet to many educated and comfortable middle-class people, the above statement would be a typical example of uneducated, blue-collar working-class ignorance. And yet the evidence of its truth is clear.

      So clear in fact that one suspects that the establishment mantra “this has nothing to do with Islam” after every Islamist atrocity, is an attempt to prevent the nation taking to the streets to demand an end to Muslim immigration and the deportation of all Muslims who do not positively defend Western values.

      The British political class know (Corbyn would be an exception here) that the future for Britain and the West is dangerous. They know that, unlike with the IRA or the Red Brigades etc, there will be no end to the Muslim terror, because they know that there are no negotiating terms with Islamist terror other than complete surrender to sharia (and let’s not pretend that Muslims in the democratic West will vote for secular, free-speech societies. In Egypt a majority voted for the Muslim Brotherhood).

      So why do our politicians continue to pretend that Muslim terror in the West will be defeated and we can then live happily ever after in our multi-cultural, multi-ethnic paradise?

      The answer is that our Western liberal political class are selling out to Islam. Consider this fact: both the USA and the EU actually accelerated Muslim immigration after 9/11. One might have thought that a moratorium on Muslim immigration after 9/11 would have been the obvious thing to do. But no. The US brought in even more Muslims.

      Angela Merkel has just brought in an extra million Muslims to Europe, and is now pretending to “get tough” and to “negotiate” with Muslim Turkey to stop another million Muslims this year, knowing full well that that million will come anyway because of Europe’s open, legally enforceable welcome.

      How else can such policies be explained except as a sell-out to a future Islamised Europe?

      • rationality

        White genocide comes in many forms apart from the biggest and baddest Islam. Feminism, homosexuality promotion, demoralisation, increasing property prices, destruction of Christianity, miscegenation promotion, constant shaming for our past and stirring division constantly. Look at the bigger picture though, there does appear to be a backlash coming for them pushing it too fast and too quick. They’re not so much selling us out but using Islam as a tool to get shot of us. I’m more unhappy with those holding the tool then the tool itself.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          No, there’s one type – your fantasies of it. As you attack i.e.

          * Allowing women the vote and to own property
          * Teaching history rather than propaganda
          * Tolerance for your far right stirrers

          Your far right are attacking people yes, sadly. As you ignore why no civilized nation can condone violence based on thought crime theories. Of course you dislike democracy and freedom…

          • rationality

            * Teaching history rather than propaganda

            I agree with you on that one. We wouldnt be in this mess if it wasnt for the lies and victimhood we have been presented with all our lives. At least people are opening their eyes and your insane ramblings are helping with this.

            • Leon Wolfeson

              Ah, you consider facts inane ramblings, so you blame everything on them. If kids were just told they’re poor and hence don’t need an education in your world, for example….that that’s the “natural order”, for instance, rather than an issue…

              As you claim to be “people” again. No, you’re one person.

              • rationality

                You fail your people with all your bizarre posts. Well done.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah, I apparently “fail” Jews by not hating them. “Well done”. Er…

                • rationality

                  You sow division when you could have promoted understanding.

                  Dont get cute, it isnt clever.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So, you call allowing other views “division”, when I could promote you and your hate, that “understanding”. Hmm!

                  And keep demanding to control what I do, of course.
                  Like any other totalitarian…

                • rationality

                  We both know that you could have could and should have thrown the elites under the bus. Youve been unhelpful and deliberately wound people up. Even the other trolls at least give a straight answer.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Your personalities “both know”…I see.

                  …As you talk about your violent impulses… (not to mention anti-democratic views)
                  …As you view having different views as “unhelpful” and to “wound up” “people” (you’re /still/ one person, no matter how many personalities you have!), how dare I not just agree with you…
                  …As you conflate me with your personalities and claim to have given ” a straight answer.”…

                  Well, that’s you.
                  I am not a totalitarian, myself, on the other hand.

                • rationality

                  You are totalitarian because you defend the totalitarians and then claim victimhood when the elites actions and negative effects on society are discussed. Anyway the victimhood card is maxed out.

                  This conversation is over by the way.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  I don’t defend you.
                  And ah, your desire to make me a victim again. As you, elitist, admit you’re an issue.

                  As you think you get to censor me, right, in your hate.

                • rationality

                  Grow up Leon.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So… childhate *and* the sort of totalitatian view you have that only your views are “adult”.

                  “This conversation is over by the way.”

                  And you posted again…so you are factually a liar.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  PS, Kish Mein Touchess.

                  (No, no, I’m not better than that)

      • Gilbert White

        Breeding rates on the unsolvable middle east population means hejira of millions every decade?

      • Cincinnatus

        A good comment and I agree with most of it. However,

        So why do our politicians continue to pretend that Muslim terror in
        the West will be defeated and we can then live happily ever after in our
        multi-cultural, multi-ethnic paradise?

        You’re too generous. They don’t believe it will be defeated. They believe it will magically disappear through more education and more “diversity”. The number of former NHS doctors now ministering to and fighting for ISIS suggests otherwise, as does the entire history of Islam. Islamic terrorism will be with us forever.

        • chrysostomos

          I think you’re both being too generous. I think they want terror because, as we see in France, it enables the government to cease stealing our individual rights and liberty in increments and rather abolish them all in one fell swoop. The PM Valls said, almost with glee, that “France will live under the terrorist threat for years”.

          Now, rather than do the obvious thing and stop Muslim migration he instead decides to declare a state of emergency and inflict upon the majority of innocent Frenchmen (and I mean Frenchmen, not Algerian-French or Ghanaian-French) gross violations of their rights. It’s worse even than the Patriot Act.

          The government loves terrorists and paedophiles because any atrocity from these amorphous, difficult to define menaces allows her to expand, allocate more resources and taxes to herself and hire more jobsworth civil servants.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Except it’s George calling for the mass deportations of citizens, for instance.

            And the evils of those nurses and teachers…sigh. (Vast majority of your targets there!)

            • Hippograd

              We should be like Israel and welcome vulnerable Muslims and kushim (as blacks are affectionately called in Hebrew). Israel has many Somali and Jamaican nurses and teachers, for example. Israel is, of course, the world’s leading expert on assimilation and anti-racism.

              • Leon Wolfeson

                Ah, so like your fantasies and Jewhate rolls on, right.

                • Hippograd

                  Ach, maybe I should stop reading the Tehran Times for my information on Israel, already.

                  Yedioth Ahronoth’s Page 3 photo shows a single African man surrounded by what appears to be a baying mob of south Tel Aviv residents who came out to protest the High Court’s decision.

                  The Tehran Times

                  A “baying mob”? As if Israelis would ever form a baying mob around a vulnerable member of the kush kommunity.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  That does explain a lot.

                  As you keep hating on people based on your bigotry, of course.
                  And of course you have a problem with court decisions…

                • Hippograd

                  Don’t worry about me, Leon. Worry about the Russian goy who has tricked his way to the top of the tree in Israel:

                  Israel needs to erect a fence around the entire country to protect itself from “beasts” in the neighborhood, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Tuesday on a tour near Eilat of a segment of fence being erected along the Jordanian border.

                  “We are preparing a multiyear project to encircle Israel with a security fence, to defend ourselves in the Middle East as it is now, and as it is expected to be,” he said. “They will say to me, what do you want to do, protect the mansion? And the answer is, ‘Yes.’ What, we will encircle the whole country with a fence and obstacles? The answer is an unequivocal, ‘Yes,’” he said.

                  “In the neighborhood in which we live we need to protect ourselves against beasts,” Netanyahu added.

                  http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-Israel-needs-fences-on-all-borders-to-keep-out-beasts-in-region-444358

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah yes, don’t look at your hate…right.

                  As you ignore the fact that that’s a highly unpopular policy…

                • Hippograd

                  a highly unpopular policy…

                  Ach, so unpopular that Benji is the Prime Minister of Israel and Likud the ruling party.

                  As I said: those Russian goyim are very cunning. They’ve obviously been rigging the democratic process in Israel.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Jewhate, Russian Hate, etc.

                  What a surprise!
                  As you try and claim every policy has the full support of every voter. Thought crime theory.

                  So, your glee at every death caused by ATOS…

                • Hippograd

                  No, no, Leon! I don’t hate Russian goyim: I’m obviously very pleased at the way they’ve cunningly taken over Israel and put up all those fences to stop Israel being enriched by kushim and Muslims. Those poor Israeli Ashkenazim: helpless in the face of that superior Russo-goy cunning!

                  As you try and claim every policy has the full support of every voter. Thought crime theory.

                  Well, I did quote an Israeli newspaper somewhere saying that Ashkenazim don’t tend to vote Likud, while Mizrahim do. But obviously I don’t understand what that means. I think everyone in Israel votes Likud.

                  Goyishe kop, no?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you deny your post, as you spin fantasies, and spew Jewhate over and over.

                  As you think you quote a paper in your mind…

                • Hippograd

                  So you deny your post, as you spin fantasies, and spew Jewhate over and over.

                  Spew shmew — don’t you know it’s been mechanized?

                  As you think you quote a paper in your mind…

                  I’ve obviously been forgetting to take my meds.

                  Sitting next door, drinking Turkish coffee and smoking cigarettes at a local convenience store, the neighborhood elders say Shabazi has always been a Likud stronghold and that is how it will remain.

                  They angrily recalled how Mizrahim were denied good jobs, passed over for promotions in the military and police, beaten in school and prevented a good education. They insisted that Israel’s founding father David Ben-Gurion didn’t even want them to come.

                  “We should be regarded like Holocaust survivors,” said Uri Barzilai, 60. “We were treated like third-rate citizens and we still feel damaged.”

                  http://www.timesofisrael.com/how-ethnic-tensions-helped-fuel-netanyahus-victory/

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  You claim to be a robot? Okay, reporting you for automated spam.

                • Hippograd

                  No, no! I’m not a robot, but there are lots of them about. They’re programmed by those evil Russian goyim who have taken Israel over, built all those fences and spread all those lies about the Ashkenazim not liking the Mizrahim, the Mizrahim not liking the Ashkenazim, and neither of them liking the kushim.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you claim your robotic copypasta Jewhate, as you lie about Jews, trying to play news articles as being universal…

                • Hippograd

                  I don’t lie. This is from the Times of Israel:

                  Sitting next door, drinking Turkish coffee and smoking cigarettes at a local convenience store, the neighborhood elders say Shabazi has always been a Likud stronghold and that is how it will remain.

                  They angrily recalled how Mizrahim were denied good jobs, passed over for promotions in the military and police, beaten in school and prevented a good education. They insisted that Israel’s founding father David Ben-Gurion didn’t even want them to come.

                  “We should be regarded like Holocaust survivors,” said Uri Barzilai, 60. “We were treated like third-rate citizens and we still feel damaged.”

                  http://www.timesofisrael.com/how-ethnic-tensions-helped-fuel-netanyahus-victory/

                  trying to play news articles as being universal…

                  The word “universal” never crossed my lips, already. Israel has serious problems with racism and inter-group rivalry. But that’s because of the Russian goyim who have snuck in and taken over. Direct your anger against them.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you deny your posts.

                  And claim one article is all reality, check. Over issues in the past, no less.

                • Hippograd

                  Yes, one article. But there are lots more out there and it’s a serious problem.

                  Over issues in the past, no less.

                  Is Facebook a Victorian invention?

                  For years, as Mizrahi Jews made inroads throughout Israeli society, the rift with the Ashkenazim took a back seat to the conflicts between Arabs and Jews, and between secular and religious Jews.

                  But the ethnic genie was let out of the bottle at a pre-election left-wing rally in Tel Aviv, where Ashkenazi artist Yair Garbuz complained about a “handful of amulet kissers that have taken over the country.” Other condescending remarks, including a Facebook post by leftist writer Alona Kimhi that referred to right-wing voters as “Neanderthals” and suggested they “drink cyanide,” sparked further outrage.

                  http://www.timesofisrael.com/how-ethnic-tensions-helped-fuel-netanyahus-victory/

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah yes, the magical many… and it’s a “problem” for you…hmm!

                  As you talk about your sort of rare fanatic…

                • Hippograd

                  As you talk about your sort of rare fanatic…

                  Israel needs to erect a fence around the entire country to protect itself from “beasts” in the neighborhood, Rare Fanatic Benjamin Netanyahu said Tuesday on a tour near Eilat of a segment of fence being erected along the Jordanian border.

                  “We are preparing a multiyear project to encircle Israel with a security fence, to defend ourselves in the Middle East as it is now, and as it is expected to be,” he said. “They will say to me, what do you want to do, protect the mansion? And the answer is, ‘Yes.’ What, we will encircle the whole country with a fence and obstacles? The answer is an unequivocal, ‘Yes,’” he said.

                  “In the neighborhood in which we live we need to protect ourselves against beasts,” Netanyahu added.

                  http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-Israel-needs-fences-on-all-borders-to-keep-out-beasts-in-region-444358

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Yes, he is a rare fanatic, and?

                  His plans to make Israel less safe…

      • Robbydot1

        They have sold out, it’s obvious. The real question is why?

        • George

          I believe the Islamisation of Europe is the consequence, not the explicit aim, of a western-backed financial-consumerist globalist agenda, where national governments gradually yield power to UN-type transnational “progressive” institutions.

          Who drives this agenda? Nobody in particular. It is a set of western universalist liberal values shared by many in the West (recently challenged by Trump in the US) and seen by the likes of Saudi Arabia and the whole Muslim world as a western gift to be fully exploited to promote Islam.

          The West, having set out on this self-destructive globalist course, does not know how to bring it to an end without making lethal enemies of the Muslim world. That’s why the American (and British) political establishments reacted violently to Trumps policy of banning Muslim immigration. They know he’s right, but are scared stiff to admit it.

          An amazing fact is that a majority of Democrat supporters in the US actually support Trump’s ban on Muslim immigration, but Clinton and the rest of them don’t know how to support their supporters.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Very well put.

          • Robbydot1

            Thank you George, I have to say that’s the most rational explanation I’ve heard. I would feel much better about all this if we’re an unintended consequence rather than deliberate destruction of our society. It is very curious that post 9/11 all Western countries greatly increased their Muslim immigration. I dread to think what the end game of all this will be but one thing’s for sure, governments cannot keep tip-toeing around Muslim sensibilities, they quite rightly see it as weakness and it makes them bolder.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            He does not want to ban Muslim immigration. He wants first to seal the borders, then maybe unseal them a little for those who prove themselves of an “acceptable” faith.

            And amazing nonsense, I see, as you support in fact Trump and IS, who both hold the same dogma of separation.

          • Kasperlos

            Good analysis, points. Follow the money is the first order of business (pun intended). The quest by these deranged elites will result in such chaos and horror that defies imagination. The world has been systematically destroyed. The last remaining shred of anything which could be construed to have an organic nature is the final game that needs to be hunted down and eliminated. That would be you and me.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Ah, so the mistake was not taking IS’s line of separation, your “truth”.

        As you want to start deporting people who don’t espouse your values, as thought crime theory is not a Western one… as you make excuses for other forms of terrorist…

        And simple – people don’t share your conspiracy theory and belief in pre-crime. This isn’t Minority Report.

    • JohnCrichton89

      The same could also be said of African communities, complete failure to integrate across every country they enter. Poor academic achievement, weak economic activity, high crime rate, demands the semi-successful system that exists be catered to suit their under achieving tribal culture, I think no one or not as many would openly say ‘letting them live among us was one of the worst mistakes’. Even behind the anonymity of an internet pseudonym.

      Why is it OK to say it about Muslims and/or Arabs. Why is there a call for this group to be ‘expelled/returned/removed’ and not the other. Nobody held a vote in either case, and public opinion would have been against it in both.

      • Jack_H

        Would you cite some evidence of this please?As far as I know African kids do fairly averagely.They are associated with some crime(Nigerians and Fraud)But for the most part are a fairly unremarkable bunch who seem to integrate more and more with each generation.They don’t appear to import any major cultural baggage and don’t seem to require the changing of our culture to accommodate them………..we have huge numbers of Muslims seeking to come here,many find our way of life impossible to adjust to and they are significantly more likely to carry out sexual attacks that the general population…….by a large margin……and many do not integrate on any meaningful level still marrying in their own ethnic group and often importing spouses from the old country.The Government’s own statistics show Pakistani and Bangladeshi men as the most likely group to be unemployed,not scape goating just quoting facts.

        • chrysostomos

          Well you can look at IQ distributions. Non-white/non-Asian countries tend to score below 90 consistently. You can blame culture or diet but the fact remains if they have such a lack of abstract thought and all that that entails maybe they shouldn’t be governing themselves.

          Personally I think sharing any technological advance that increases their fecundity while decreasing their mortality is a mistake.

        • JohnCrichton89

          I’m on my phone atm, but we know that societal mediocrity for black people is far below the standard needed to maintain their communities above that of the tribal levels they come from. The countries they come from have to be seen as atleast a partial reflection on them as do the communities they create here. Even when in a society where the ground work has been done for them we see measurable underachievment, that’s why we have their exorbitant crime rates and low acedemic prowess. Yes in contrast with black communities present in other countries we have seen a noticable iq rise, but it is still around or above standard diviation from white indigonous and more so than say east asians. Again I can’t get the links right now, but this is widely accessible stuff. We see the calls from the black communities all the time for more civil rights that far exceed equal rights, they want racial profiling for jobs amd complain when police do it, when police don’t do it cries of indifference come. Never does the argument to police themselves and educate themselves arise, it’s always us who need to reform our education system for them, we need to create a police service for them. Successfully integrated capable groups don’t do this. They create self sufficient communities that operate under current laws, they find/develope an educational/policing method that works for them and allows them to compete with others. Chinese, Irish, Italian etc.

          • Jack_H

            I’m afraid I haven’t seen evidence of this,the as i remember the Governments figures broke down roughly as;Canada,USA,Australia and NZ migrants performed above average in everything and did rich EU(Original Member States)Eastern Europe on average earned less and claimed more on Benefits.African earnings were average but had bigger families and took more benefits.Bangladeshi and Pakistanis performed badly in Education,they were much more likely to be unemployed(Something like 50%)and received proportionately far more in benefits.That was what the migration watch survey concluded using the Governments own data and no one has refuted it.I was under the impression that Africans also markedly out performed those of Afro Caribbean origin as well.

            • JohnCrichton89

              Could you post a link when you get a moment.

      • Robbydot1

        Many if not most of the North Africans coming in are Muslim.

      • Dynamo11

        I dunno about you but personally my experience with poor Christian African immigrants is that they tend to be pretty honest and hard working, these are the people that 2-3 generations down the line will just be Black British both culturally and socially (similar to Afro-Caribbean communities). The Muslim Africans on the other hand are simply adding to the Pakistani/Bangladehsi established Islamic ghettos and making no attempt at integration. 3rd generation Abdi will be just as “British” as his immigrant Eritrean grandmother

        • JohnCrichton89

          Subjective personal experience, mine is the opposite. Stats show the trends, is there a successful self sufficient black christian metropolis anywhere in the world? 99% of the places they live are tribal ghettos, these places are a reflection on them as a whole. Treating people as induviduals or based on personal experience is all well and good, it is not an effective way to legislate government policy. Which black majority country would you wish to live, a more revelant and imediate question is which white minority country should we aspire to be like.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          And my experience with the far right involves them trying to beat me up. Why shouldn’t they be deported?

          Moreover, you’re incorrect about integration of the third generation, as you note the “ghettos” caused when people move together for defense, and which remain ~30% Muslim..unlike the 90%+ areas in France…

    • Thomas Katz

      “Only a madman would think that this was going to work.”
      Cameron and Merkels EU think it will work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Scott

      I hate it when people associate Muslims or liberals with “mad” or “crazy.” It isn’t crazy, it’s evil and it’s calculated. Liberals hate their own culture and value these animals over fellow Americans. Watch how liberals talk about Muslims and then the GOP. It is outrageous.

  • Jules Wright

    Unlikely. As things stand, what’s more likely – nay certain – is that said group will contain many pound shop Bin Ladens.

  • William Matthews

    Given that so far all we can conclusively prove is that the migrants coming in have included rapists, Islamist’s, thieves, sexual deviants, rioters and liars, with scant evidence of even Doctors and Engineers we’ve been promised, is the risk of losing a Steve Jobs clone, greater or less than letting them in, in the first place?

    I should also point out that Steve Jobs was not a particularly pleasant human being. An angry bully certainly, a poor parent, possibly misogynist, he certainly treated his staff and friends with scant respect.

    As for Apple, they own a lot of patents, but have invented very little. They put a nice polish on other peoples work, and then claim it as their own. Bullying small firms as they do. I tend to think of Apple as the technology equivalent of Islam: If you don’t know any better, everything seems peachy.

    So essentially, Jobs was a fantastic marketeer and a great product manager but not a great human. I think we can afford the risk of losing another like him. Don’t you?

    • Hybird

      “Given that so far all we can conclusively prove is that the migrants coming in have included rapists, Islamist’s, thieves, sexual deviants, rioters and liars…”

      All devout Muslims following the example of their appalling “prophet,” then.

    • starfish

      Not sure we need another industrialist who charges top dollar for devices that are a triumph of design and hype over function and export the manufacturing of them to China

      • William Matthews

        Oh I forgot the driving of thousands of ‘almost’ slaves in China to Suicide.

      • http://rantingoldgit.blogspot.co.uk/ Arthur Sparknottle

        It was published a while ago that the Iphone 6 costs Apple $140 to buy and put in the shops and the Iphone 6+ costs about $150. These are sold for $649 and $749 respectively. No wonder Apple are said to be sitting on a $49 Billion cash pile.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      So, on the basis of your belief in pre-crime, ala Minority Report…

      And you’re happy to write people off on the basis you dislike Apple. Hmm.

      • William Matthews

        And you seem happy to turn a blind eye to the fact that there is a significant portion of the immigrants that are criminals of one type of another and that this is a determinable risk.

        It’s not called Pre-Crime, it’s called Probability. If we could do Pre-Crime, we’d pick up all the liars, thieves, rapists, etc at the borders, and everything would be peachy for everyone.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          And there you go again, “significant”. A far more significant part of your far right is, so why should you not be purged under your Pre-Crime theory? As you argue that if it’s probably you’re an issue, you should be sent out….

          And you don’t want to catch criminals, you want to catch those who don’t look and believe like you – and who have escaped people who think like you, for that matter.

          • William Matthews

            So they’re all perfect?

            • Leon Wolfeson

              Ah, the excuses for your hate roll on, Pre-Crime man.

          • William Matthews

            Oh, I get it, I’m racist. Racist! Racist! Racist! Do you believe if you insinuate I’m racist, that it proves your point? Are you really that pathetic? Is that the sum of your debating skills? Are you a 6th former?

            The magical cure against the Right, and their opinions: Just call them racists. Right? Is that it?

            You are pathetic, and your argument is juvenile. And you are playing semantics to dodge the issue, and insulting people to hide away from empirical facts.

            I see no point in continuing discussion with you.

            PS: Half my family isn’t white.

            • Leon Wolfeson

              Your self-labeling is yours. If I insult people, I do it to their face, kid-hater, as you spew your fantasies and hates for simply not being like you.

              You see no “point” in talking to anyone not just like you, what a surprise, as you deny crimes when they’re commited by your far right – that’s a fact, and one which causes problems for your pre-Crime beliefs, so you storm off unable to deal with it.

              And your (seemingly severe) family issues are not my problem.

  • Mongo

    depends whether the Syrian kids are allowed to be educated and integrated properly. If they’re all going to end up in Islamic faith schools in places like Dewsbury, we’re more likely looking at the next generation of suicide bombers…

    • Blindsideflanker

      Especially under the tutelage of the left, who will educate them to hate us.

      • red2black

        Reading a few of the comments here and elsewhere will save ‘the left’ from having to.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Oh, the evils of an education, people will be taught to hate extremists on the far right. Oh, and Islamists. But nope!

        Actually, he had a point about Wahbbist funded schools, which is a scandal. But you can’t let that stand…you need to bring out the anti-educational pseudo- Maoism…

  • Blindsideflanker

    Well we’ll take the Steve Jobbs and not the other million of them.

  • Ron Todd

    The big news story this morning was a new cancer cure. What is most likely that the team of people that developed the cure were European or of European ancestry with a lot of the brain work done by Jews, or a team of African and Arab people.

    • Zhang Wei

      The team of researchers developing this therapy has been assembled from every part of the world.

      • Ron Todd

        Italian and American is all I can find; give us the list of team members and let us see how international they are.

        You are free to think I am an idiot but why does that make you think I am spastic?

        I am sure you can provide us all with a big list of medical breakthroughs made in the last few hundred years by Africans or Muslims.

        • red2black

          How do the people who actually come up with these medical breakthroughs feel about who should benefit from them?

          • Ron Todd

            I can’t speak for them but I would imagine they would want it available to the maximum number of people possible.

            I have know of no medical breakthrough that anybody wanted to restrict the benefits of to only the countries that developed the physical and social infrastructure over many centuries that enabled them to provide the education knowledge and culture that has let us develop modern scientific medicine over the last few centuries.

            • red2black

              Pleased to hear it. People are more important than politics and religion.

    • Zhang Wei

      Sir you are a complete idiot, dare I say a spastic.

  • Airey Belvoir

    I thought that all the migrants are doctors, teachers and engineers, as we have been told by the BBC and Channel 4 News – so surely there will be a computer genius entrepreneur or three among them.
    ( On the other hand, learning the Koran by heart is hardly a Western liberal education.)

    • Adam Carter

      Almost right.
      Some are architects.
      And some are rocket scientists.
      None are loutish criminals, of course.

      • Sue Smith

        And definitely not rapists or misogynists – or even potential terrorists, despite their minority numbers!! And aren’t ‘minorities’ special anyway?

        • red2black

          Of course minorities are special. People with a Public School education, for example.

          • Sue Smith

            Priceless. Yeah, state education is looking a bit last-century here in Australia. The class warriors are shrill in their defense, which only tells me they are on the DEfensive.

            • red2black

              Nothing to do with class. Public Schools provide places for pupils from the poorest backgrounds.

              • Sue Smith

                What were YOU on about, then?

                • red2black

                  Minorities being special.

  • jim

    The myth of equality…we simply are not allowed to acknowledge what all grown ups know to be true.Some people are an asset.Some are trouble.These groups are often defined by racereligionculture.Our refusal to act on this inconvenient truth has ruined us.Our enemies are those who deny these facts .

    • ohforheavensake

      D’you think it’s that simple? Really?

      • LittleRedRidingHood

        It is exactly that simple. It’s leftards who have made it too complicated.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Ah, your simplistic hates…as you spout off your PC bigotry over and over.

          • rationality

            Do you have any other lines?

            • Leon Wolfeson

              Well, when I’m only looking at the facts…

              • LittleRedRidingHood

                You wouldn’t recognise a fact if it slapped you in the face Leon.

                Form a queue everyone, this may take some time.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  I’m sure you want to use violence against me, as you deny facts because they don’t suit you.
                  And now you want others to do the same.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  Present one (a fact that is) and I’ll let you know how close you are.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you reject the fact I posted a while ago, and you’d say facts are not close to “faxts” you’d recognize anyway, right.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  Need I point out that you really only talk unintelligible shyte?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  You try and whine that you can’t stand other ideologies, yes, over and over in your hate of debate and indeed free speech.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  What is your ideology Leon?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  If you actually cared, you could have read my post history.

                  It’s not relevant, of course, you’re just rejecting everything I type anyway in your whining.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  It’s bad enough having to shovel my way through your durge here without going to your history. I’d be up to my neck in it and frankly why would anyone put themselves through such torture?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Your fantasies about shovels and “durge” are yours.

                  As you think of actually reading someone else’s relevant post history as “torture”, right.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  Only yours Leon. It would take too long to unearth a reasoned intelligent contribution.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah, your poor reading skills…

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  I have yet to see one yet. Why would I waste my time?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  And being blind excuses you how?

                • Lawrence James.

                  Intolerance breeds mixed metaphors !

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  So Leon flippancy aside. What is your ideology?
                  It’s easier to answer than cone out with the smart remarks isn’t it?
                  I will assume that if you are not prepared to answer this simple question you are not serious about entering any meaningful debate.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So, facts aside, you want personal information about me after going on the offensive against me for weeks. Hmm!

                  As you once more I’m to blame for your utter hate of debate and determination to prevent it.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  As I thought. A poor little snowflake bathed in victimhood. The offer has been there to engage time and time again Leon. You prefer childish tittle tattle and always start on offensive, as you do with everyone when you interact on these forums.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you don’t think, just want to make me a victim for not being just like you, as you fake “offers”, which you’ve made once, and demand I think like you – as you refuse to read my posts (as you’ve clearly said) and so have no idea how I interact with others.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  I take this as a cowardly refusal. The order is still open though.
                  But you sound more like a man of no substance running out of ideas.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Take your post all you like.

                  “The order is still open though.”

                  Yes, your orders run on. As you claim you’ve hacked my microphone and I sound like you.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  Typo Leon. Should have said offer.
                  I thought a high intellect such as yours would have realised that.

                  I’m making a transcript as we speak. Those fetishes of yours will get you in trouble one day my friend. Lol.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Freudian Slip.
                  Which is proof of what you were thinking.

                  Transcription is not a fetish…but I still don’t do it. The voice type software I use works in real time.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  It’s called auto correct on a mobile device if you must know, rather than the proof you do desperately desire.
                  Voice type software. I’m intrigued.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah, the auto-correct excuse for a freudian slip, between words not remotely similar in spelling.
                  *snerk*

                  And really, you’re “intrigued” by something quite common?

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  You’ve never used my phone, how would you know chum.
                  Plus, I’ve never has the need to use voice recognition software, I have no physical disability.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah, so you’re saying you what, coded your phone yourself?

                  And oh dear, you really are an anti-disabled bigot. Plenty of non-disabled people use voicetype.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  Ha ha, I knew you’d respond in such a way.
                  An “anti disabled bigot” my you really cram those buzz words in.
                  Your use of voice recognition software explains some of the foibles of your comments, is all.
                  I expect you’ll find some sort of faux insult buried in there somewhere, but that’s your problem not mine.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you can read the future, as you whine about facts.

                  Actually, sometimes I use it and sometimes I don’t.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  Usual nonsense. Night Night Leon

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Yes, you are spouting your usual nonsense and whining.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  Interesting that expecting a sensible answer backed up with references is deemed whining.
                  That said I think I am past expecting any due diligence from you.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Except you didn’t. And of course you don’t expect anything except your whining.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  I rest my case. Good night Leon.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Yes, your case of whining is down, to be picked up tomorrow…

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  Indeed. You’ve got nothing as usual.

            • Desperate Dan’s Porridge

              No he doesn’t.

          • LittleRedRidingHood

            The only bigot here is you Leon.

            • Leon Wolfeson

              Ah yes, because I’m not a bigot, you declaim me a bigot in your hate.

              • LittleRedRidingHood

                Ha ha ha , if you weren’t so sad you’d be laughable .

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  “UR SAD”

                  And no, no laughing near your po-faced.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  I think your Google translate needs updating.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you don’t think, as you try to make me out to be a non-English speaking foreigner for being Jewish again. As can be expected given your ideology, of course, but *sigh* anyway.

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  I suggest then you might pay a little more attention to the structure of your sentences.
                  You know…. Put a little thought into it.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah, you suggest I lie in your thoughtless manner, copy/pasting from your little red book. Hmm!

                • LittleRedRidingHood

                  Deary me Leon. So now I’m a communist. Make up your mind chum

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Actually, the most frequent quoters of the Little Red Book in this Parliament were the Tories.

                  (Also, it was a pun on the red briefcases, but that’s more subtle)

    • Damaris Tighe

      Also, discrimination (aka discernment) has become a dirty word, as have judgement (mustn’t be ‘judgemental’) & selection. If you’re not allowed to select children for academic schooling, you also can’t select migrants at your borders. That entails ‘exclusion’, & the bye-word for our age is ‘inclusion’. It’s a unified ideology.

      • red2black

        Plenty of school pupils are excluded; far more than when I was at school in the 1960s. Judgement and selection play an important part in the staffing of special forces and the intelligence services, for example. The Border Agency regularly turn people back with good reason at our borders.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Tell me, why is selection, which is shown to be damaging to education, linked? I mean apart from your silly fantasy?

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