Coffee House

France has become a religious battleground

15 January 2016

4:47 PM

15 January 2016

4:47 PM

The new year has not started well for France. On the last day of 2015 – the most traumatic year for the French in decades because of the twin attacks in Paris – president Francois Hollande warned the nation in his traditional New Year’s Eve address: ‘France is not done with terrorism… these tragic events will remain for ever etched in our memories, they shall never disappear. But despite the tragedy, France has not given in. Despite the tears, the country has remained upright.’

Hollande’s warning was borne out within 24 hours. On the first day of 2016 a lone motorist – inspired by Islamic State – drove at a group of soldiers guarding a Mosque in Valence. There were no fatalities, though the driver was shot and wounded, but six days later another Isis supporter was shot dead as he charged a police station in the north of Paris brandishing a knife and wearing what turned out to be a fake suicide vest.

Then in Marseille on Monday a 15-year-old Turkish-Kurd boy wounded a Jewish teacher in a machete attack in broad daylight, boasting to the police that he had acted in the name of Isis. It was the third such attack in three months in the Mediterranean city and the teacher spoke later of the ‘hate in the eyes’ of his assailant as he rained down blows. On Tuesday Jews were advised by Zvi Ammar, head of Marseille’s Israelite Consistory, to ‘remove the kippah during this troubled time until better days…as soon as we are identified as Jewish we can be assaulted and even risk death.’

The reaction to the trio of attacks has followed a now familiar pattern. Politicians visit the scene, praise the security forces and call on people to remain vigilant, and united. But worryingly for Hollande and his government there are signs that the nation’s solidarity is splintering.

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The story that dominated the French media over the Christmas period was of the civil disorder in Corsica. It began on 24 December when a fire crew were attacked by a mob when they were lured to a predominantly Muslim housing estate in a suburb of Ajaccio, the island’s capital. On Christmas Day a crowd of several hundred Corsicans descended on the estate chanting ‘Arabs Get Out!’ Some of the protestors broke into a Muslim prayer hall and burned copies of the Koran. The violence panicked the French government. Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve flew to Corsica and called for calm while Prime Minister Manuel Valls condemned both attacks, declaring: ‘These unworthy acts bruise the Republic.’ In the same week footage emerged on social media of a group of citizens confronting a group of migrants in Calais with a man heard saying he was going to ‘fetch my gun’.

These two incidents at the opposite end of the country are deeply troubling for France. At the start of December, Valls warned of a ‘civil war’ in response to the strong showing of the right-wing Front National in regional elections. The FN were kept out of power in those elections because of the Socialist Party’s second round tactic – its supporters blocked right-wing candidates by voting for Nicolas Sarkozy’s centre-right party, Les Republicains. Nonetheless a record 6.8m people voted for Marine Le Pen’s party in that second round. They now feel emboldened but also embittered at the manner in which the political class contrived to keep their party from winning any of France’s thirteen regions.

It’s a potent brew, and though talk of a ‘civil war’ is, for the moment, just political scare-mongering, the atmosphere in France has darkened in the last few weeks. On Sunday the country’s politicians gathered in Paris to commemorate the first anniversary of the attacks on Charlie Hebdo and the Jewish supermarket. The turnout was disappointing, and when the Socialist mayor of Paris, Anne Hidalgo, unveiled a plaque in Paris’s Place de la République, she was asked if she was surprised by the sparse crowds. ‘Parisians are not really morning people,’ she quipped.

Her weak joke didn’t elicit much of a laugh for French humour is in short supply. Just hours before the commemoration a church in Fontainebleau was targeted by arsonists, the latest in an increasing number of attacks against Christian places of worship. According to Liberation, there were 591 acts of arson or vandalism against religious buildings in France in 2014, of which 467 (79 percent) were Christian.

Synagogues have largely escaped attack. This is partly because in recent years security has been increased, following the attack in 2012 on a Jewish school in Toulouse by Mohamed Merah. However, this hasn’t deterred Jews leaving France in record numbers. In 2014 around 7,000 Jews emigrated to Israel, a 130 percent increase on the previous year, while an estimated 9,000 are believed to have left last year (the official figures are yet to be released). Many are fleeing France because of anti-Semitism; 851 incidents were recorded in 2014, up from 423 the previous year. But 2015 looks like it will set a new record for anti-Semitic acts in France with official statistics revealing that between January and May 2015 there was a staggering 84 percent increase on the same period the previous year. The 2014 report didn’t detail the religion of the perpetrators but in most of the incidents cited, Jews were attacked because of the situation in Palestine. The same report also noted that there were 133 anti-Muslim acts recorded in France in 2014.

On Sunday evening Nicolas Sarkozy received the Rabbi Moshe Rosen prize from the Conference of European Rabbis at a ceremony in London. The president of the Conference, Chief Rabbi Pinchas Goldsmith, praised the former president of France for his support over the years, but also noted the increasing number of French Jews who have moved to England because of fears for their safety back home. ‘France right now is the main battleground between hope and fear for the future of Europe,’ said Goldsmith, ‘especially for the Jewish community.’

The Chief Rabbi is right. France has become a battleground and the country can expect further casualties in 2016. As an unnamed French senior counter-terrorism official suggested last week ‘Unfortunately, I think 2015 was nothing. We are moving towards a European 9/11: simultaneous attacks on the same day in several countries, several places. A very coordinated thing. We know the terrorists are working on this.’

Gavin Mortimer is the author of ‘The Men Who Made the SAS: a History of the Long Range Desert Group in WW2’.

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Show comments
  • Russ Littler

    France and Germany are now religious battlegrounds, and do you know why? The indigenous people have been betrayed by their own elected politicians. They are traitors to their own countries. This will end in civil war in Europe.

  • WTF

    Battle for Britain ‘Redoux’ and a German Leader is the cause of it AGAIN aided by Juncker of the EU !

    As predicted by Nigel Farage, Geert Wiilders & Donald Trump, the invasion is in full force, and NOT a vulnerable child or woman among them !

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3413566/Port-Calais-closed-migrants-storm-harbour-make-Spirit-Britain-ferry-desperate-bid-reach-UK.html

  • WTF

    The moderate face of Islam ! Which is the greater crime, having pictures of naked children on your lap top or watching beheading on your lap top like these two sick Muslims men !

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3406053/ISIS-militant-nicknamed-Jihadi-Sid-warned-black-flag-fly-Downing-Street.html

  • WTF
  • Viking.

    Islam is the only religion that rewards murder. The more infidels that a Muslim kills the greater will be his reward in Paradise.

  • itbeso

    “On Christmas Day a crowd of several hundred Corsicans descended on the estate chanting ‘Arabs Get Out!’ Some of the protestors broke into a Muslim prayer hall and burned copies of the Koran. The violence panicked the French government.”
    What the violence on books? I use the term book loosely obviously.

  • kirilov

    Still nothing on Saudi Arabia and its central role in poisoning Islam. Has any of you ever wondered why Muslims were not especially problematic in modern times before 1970? You keep having this clash-of-civilization delusion, without realizing that we have a very concrete political problem on our hands: how to stop Saudi Arabia from spreading Wahhabism worldwide:

    http://annaqed.com/en/terrorism/saudi-arabia-wahhabism-and-the-spread-of-sunni-theofascism

    We can’t apparently, because our political and economic elites are in bed with the Gulf Arab oligarchy. So instead of wetting your pants over the Muslim population of Europe, you should direct your anger at the Western politicians who have abetted and enabled the Saudis, and sold out their countries’ future in the process.

  • jeffersonian

    ‘At the start of December, Valls warned of a ‘civil war’ in response to the strong showing of the right-wing Front National in regional elections.’

    The perversion of today’s political climate is exemplified by the fundamentally decent French PM Manuel Valls declaring that the opposition to the islamisation of Europe is the root of the problem, when in fact it’s the Mu*lims and the politicians appeasing them that are the real cause for worry.

    • Pioneer

      What makes you think Valls is fundamentally decent ? How do you square that with the false narrative he spreads?

      • jeffersonian

        ‘What makes you think Valls is fundamentally decent ?’

        As PM of France, with a 10%+ Muslim proportion of the population, Valls has been commendably objective in dealing with the Jihadi onslaught. It would have been easy for him to cave, as so many other British and European politicians have done, but he has not…comparatively. For that he deserves commendation and praise.

  • Patrick Roy

    The French killed their aristocracy and abandoned Christianity. REAP WHAT YOU SOW.

    • pobjoy

      French papalists brutally murdered Calvinists, and papacy even struck a medal to celebrate. Calvinism is theologically no better than papalism, but it is better, socially, and its absent influence on French life is still in evidence now.

      • JabbaPapa

        crikey, I hope you keep your doors locked at night, against the murderous threat of the bloodthirsty Catholic housewives of your parish …

  • Ominous

    The whole of Europe is now a religious battleground. The Muslims are in the ascendency. Muslims from other European countries are coming to Britain as it’s more ‘tolerant’ of Muslims than other European countries. Many Muslims (with EU passports) from France, Denmark, Germany and the Netherlands have migrated to the UK over the last 5 years as those countries have tightened up their welfare handouts and placed more restrictions on Islamic cultural practices. The highest Muslim birth rates in Europe are in England – Pakistani and Bangladeshi birth rates are higher in England then they are in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

    As it stands the Muslims will easily take England and most of Europe in a very short space of time. It should have become apparent to the non-Muslim white population in England by now that if the Muslim immigrant population has established an alternative legal system, set up unregistered schools, lobbies for blasphemy laws, organises mass rape and torture of non-Muslim white girls, has thousands that are plotting mass murder or supports the mass murder of non-Muslims in the name of Islam that maybe they have been invaded and a hybrid war is being waged against their country.

  • WTF

    After Cologne and all those other attacks on New Years Eve, its so heartening to finally hear a western leader speak the truth about the culture of Islam. Its also very telling it took a former east European
    state under USSR rule to state the obvious that having shaken off one totalitarian system he doesn’t want to let in another, but why isn’t Merkel prepared to say it !

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3403603/It-s-impossible-integrate-Muslim-community-Western-Europe-says-president-Czech-Republic.html

  • Marvin

    Is there any trouble and terror anywhere in the world, and there are plenty, that does not involve Islam and the Moslems? ANYONE?
    And Europe is infesting the west with eternal death destruction and Armageddon.

    • Liberanos

      As long as we convert and don’t make trouble, we’ll be all right.

    • logdon

      Maybe your answer is here.

      http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    • WTF

      I think the answer is that all ethnic groups have anti-social elements, pedophiles, terrorists and other unsavory characters but none of these are supported let alone protected by the state. Only Islam has the distinction of being allowed free rein in the west to do pretty much as it pleases and elsewhere its pre-occupied with genocide of non believers and even some of its own.

      The only modern country I can think of which doesn’t have a problem with Muslim ‘crime’ for want of a better word is Japan. Surprise, surprise, it has a complete ban on Muslims entering the country far more so than Trump was advocating. Now even the most retarded liberal should be able to see that connection.

      • Marvin

        That only goes to prove where there is Islam there lies death destruction slaughter and anarchy. But my point was, is there any “CONFLICT” in the entire world at present that does not involve the barbarity of this primitive ignorant
        dogma ridden race that the west is condoning, inviting and encouraging to fester and grow in their lands.

        • WTF

          No there isn’t, if they aren’t raping & killing non Muslims they are killing their own.

          • Marvin

            Thanks, I rest my case. What I find unbelievable that a silly ignorant mis interpretation in their flawed beliefs is responsible for the slaughter of billions of their own sort of kinds since this division started between the two main factions.

            • WTF

              Most civil wars were generally about governance wrt the who and how people should be governed and religion played little specific role in them. Religion if present was more of a side line than the actual cause or protagonist of the civil war. The English civil war/s were like that as was the American war of independence. In fact one could argue that the uprising in Kenya with the mau mau was really a civil war.

              Islam seems to be unique in that right at its beginning they had a genocidal civil war between Mecca & Medina and likewise today that civil war is still going on with ‘jousting’ between Saudi & Iran. As for the Jihadists which no westerner has the faintest idea just who they represent or what their real aims are, that’s a mystery as well. It seems there have been spells of undeclared peace but I don’t believe that war ever stopped. As to the ‘why’, to me its a complete mystery why one would have a religious civil war for 1400 years in parallel with other wars of colonial conquest when there is only one set of religious teachings.

              One can understand the fracture between Christians and Protestants as the teachings split and were significantly different in certain key areas but Islam, their scriptures have never been revised or changed so what is the fight all about within Islam ?

              This certainly explains why todays western leaders have got it so wrong with Islamic states and would have done better just to stay the f*** away from the lot of them. IMO America made a big error telling a weakened UK & France to get out of the Middle East just after WWII as had we held onto the oil fields we would have had the clout and money to maintain control over a bunch of camel jockeys instead of letting them create mayhem years later. Too late now but we should distance ourselves from Islamic states and we should ban Islam as a religion in the west until its revised its teachings. Self determination and freedoms should only come with responsibility but Muslims in most parts of the world over have no idea of responsibility.

              • Marvin

                I was not referring to civil wars in the western world, like Britain, America France, Spain or Russia. These were mainly political or anarchy by the peasants etc. What I am saying that in Islam the slaughter between Sunni and Shia has been a constant hatred of each other that sees no end. This is precisely about a mis interpretation in their so called book of god. In the Yemen, Syria, Saudi, Iran, and nearly all of the middle east it is about these two primitive medieval races that finds it impossible to progress into the modern world and are content to remain in a quagmire of uncivilised slaughter of each other.

                • WTF

                  I think we agree on the very differences between western civil wars and Islamic civil wars. Pity our leaders seem to blind about Islamic history.

                • Marvin

                  You know, it is not the past history of them slaughtering each other that bothers me, in fact may it go on till the last man standing enters oblivion as well. It is the fact that the EU, Britain and most of the west are openly inviting this Armageddon into their bosoms at the rate that is doubling every few years.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Yes, your anti-disabled bigotry…and Japan’s economic woes and high levels of racism…

        Not that you’d not ever have anything to do with anything Japanese, or anything else foreign of course.

        • WTF

          Even with deflation, Japans society doesn’t seem to be fracturing like the EU and as a point of note, I have traveled to Japan a few times on business.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Ah, so you’re a hypocrite with no moral standing here, right, as you went there against your own views.

            As you ignore Japan’s usage of guest workers and it’s issues, right.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Yes, plenty.

      As you talk about youself – Mr. Infestation, and your plans for Armageddon.

      • Marvin

        There is something extremely important missing from your thinking, and only a certain event in your lefty ignorant
        altruistic lack of common sense and myopic thinking “may” bring you to your senses.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Ah, I don’t share your blind hate, right. Very importanrt to you, I’m not an enemy of Britain and other civilized countries, right.

          As you decry any kind of altruism, claiming hate and being a thug is the only “common sense”, as you threaten me. Right.

          • Marvin

            Well unless you wake up to the fact regarding the difference between hate and realistic fear from the very type of violent, ignorant, illiterate species who can without any feeling and mercy or pity, cut off an innocent man’s head, now that is hatred, and it could happen to you. UNLESS! that name is bogus as well.

            • Leon Wolfeson

              I understand your issues with me and how you think they’re justified.
              And what you want to do to me, likewise.

              I’ll stand with civilized people against you and your eugenics spouting about “species”.

              • Russ Littler

                You sir, are insulting “civilised” people. We were civilised and living accordingly to our Judeo/Chrisyian culture. We are not the ones at fault here. We did not ask them to come here. It is the evil ideology of Islam which threatens our very culture, laws, and democracy. We have every bloody right to wish to preserve our own heritage, it’s our country. How can you seriously call anyone “racist” or “thug” simply because they (justifiably) feel threatened by Islam. If we are “thugs” for verbalising the truth, what does that make someone who beheads a soldier in the street, shoot and blows up 130 people,/cartoonists because it offended them? Ist that your idea of civilised behaviour?. How dare you.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  No, I’m insulting you. Personally.

                  As you spew thought crinme theory, rejecting Chritisn balues, as you demand a right of violence and blood, to give your political ideology – not a heritage or country, politics – a special status, above the common law of the land.

                  I am not doing it simply because of your thought crime theory, I’m doing it because you admit to hate preaching, as you ignore people like Brevik, your so-civilized…

  • Grace Ironwood

    I just hate to say this, but the West been so pacified by PC that it is going to take extreme violence and whole populations under siege to wake them up – if ever. This is the “silver lining” of the terror.

    More on the “silver lining” – conditions exist for these extremes to take place sooner rather than later.

  • anneallan

    Do we ask why the French government is wasting French taxpayers’ money on guarding mosques?

    • JabbaPapa

      What, should they build some nice death camps instead ?

    • Mary Ann

      Because France is a civilised country. I doubt that the French consider it a waste of money, except of course Mme Le Pen’s lot.

  • Cobbett

    ‘France right now is the main battleground between hope and fear for the
    future of Europe,’ said Goldsmith, ‘especially for the Jewish
    community.’

    Europe can thrive without Muslims or Jews but will cease to exist without Europeans.

  • King Kibbutz

    Now then, let’s try and think how this has come about?

  • BritishPatriot

    Well, well. It looks like the French are gradually discovering a little bit of backbone. Good for them! A shame we Brits are apparently incapable of following suit.

  • thetrashheap

    To quote steyn “The barbarians aren’t at the gate, they are amongst us and there is no gate”

    Civil war is unavoidable now……

  • David B

    Read this in conjunction with the article on multiculturalism and you can see where the left are taking us

  • Space 1999

    If I was a leftist, I would have been very careful in my attempt to destroy the culture of my country by introducing Islam, because I would be aware that the two cultures are largely incompatible, and realise that the native French/German/British population, in the end, wouldn’t accept it.

    Unless the ‘invasion’ was done very slowly over a long period of time, by stealth, it would have native people out, defending their culture and themselves. This is what is now starting in France (FN), Holland (PVV), Germany (AfD/PEGIDA), Finland (Soldiers of Odin) and finally the UK (PEGIDA UK).

    From a left wing point of view, when you find people resisting in ever greater numbers, as is now happening – you’ve failed. Their idea was to destroy European culture by stealth, and it’s all going wrong.

  • sebastian2

    This was anticipated by all except those who should’ve anticipated it, but didn’t. To think that such cultures – in competition or enmity for centuries – could integrate peacefully within mere decades, was always unlikely. Even more so when a prevailing multiculturalism encouraged or sanctioned the very differences that would inevitably – as we see – lead to conflict. If this wasn’t bad enough, fuel was added to a smouldering fire by mass mohammedan immigration from failed states.

    The multicultural left, impatient for a multicultural, cultural relativist utopia, have much to answer for. They’ve brought looming disaster upon us.

    • kirilov

      It’s also the capitalist elite who has brought the disaster:
      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-yousaf-butt-/saudi-wahhabism-islam-terrorism_b_6501916.html

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Your far right are indeed a problem.

      As you whine on about allowing i.e. Sikhs and Jews in the country, monocultist as you are…

      The “disaster” you want to cause to use an excuse for your hardline views…

      • sebastian2

        Do you write alternative pc poetry as well, by any chance?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          No, you can rest easy I’m not an economic competitor there with you.

          • sebastian2

            Ahhh. So you’re a failed alternative pc poet then. Still ………… you must be used to failure.

            • Leon Wolfeson

              No, I’m not you.

  • E.I.Cronin

    The Corsicans haven’t surrendered their will to live, unlike their lobotomized compatriots on the mainland. Good for them!.

    The 2014 stats are a blunt warning to Christian leaders across the western world. Will share this with believer friends and family and hope it penetrates the progressive fog.

  • Sid Falco

    Time to expel the worthless trash.

  • Ronovitch

    Has the author of this piece ever looked up a definition of the word ‘battleground’? His compilation of facts – presumably compiled through Google – by no means suggests France is a ‘battleground’ at all. Poor research, poor writing.

  • thomasaikenhead

    “On the last day of 2015 – the most traumatic year for the French in decades because of the twin attacks in Paris…”

    Fascinating to witness all the fuss about recent events but a total silence about the atrocities conducted by the French state with its own borders?

    17th October, 1961 not ring any bells?

    8th February, 1962, perhaps?

    • JabbaPapa

      Are you some sort of apologist for terrorism ?

      The FLN was a terrorist organisation, and the repression of a pro-terrorist riot in 1961, after a bombing and murder campaign had left dozens dead in Paris, degenerated into Police violence.

      • thomasaikenhead

        “Are you some sort of apologist for terrorism ?”

        Not at all, I am someone who thinks that peaceful protestors in the middle of Paris should not have been attacked and murdered by the police of Paris, lead by Maurice Papon who had earlier participated int eh rounding up and deportation of French Jews during WWII.

        Even worse, the French state colluded in the cover up of these atrocities and others!

        • JabbaPapa

          peaceful protestors in the middle of Paris

          Your “peaceful protestors” were engaging in organised violence.

          It was a day of urban warfare, far far worse than anything that happened in 1968. The Arabs spent the day assaulting the Police, sometimes using gunfire, and engaging in massive property damage along the way.

          To describe this as a “peaceful protest” and cast all of the blame on the French, whilst pitying the poor innocent Muslims, is incredibly naïve.

          • thomasaikenhead

            Simply not true and the murder of suspects by the police of Paris and the subsequent cover-up remains a stain on the honour of France to this day!

            • kirilov

              This does not excuse Islamist violence.

              • thomasaikenhead

                Nobody is seeking to excuse Islamist violence, merely to point out the hypocrisy and inconsistency of the French state.

                • kirilov

                  Doesn’t imply that they don’t have a right to self-defence now.

            • JabbaPapa

              Simply not true

              It is, in point of fact, most assuredly true — and that riot took place after a period of some months where Arab immigrants had engaged in a bombing campaign in Paris, and the murders of about two dozen policemen.

              I’m not sating that the Police didn’t act extremely wrongfully that day, but seriously — what do you think would be the likely outcome of a massive “peaceful” pro-ISIS demonstration organised in Paris in 2016 ?

              • thomasaikenhead

                There can be no excuse for the murder of peaceful demonstrators by the police of Paris and the subsequent cover-up.

                • JabbaPapa

                  “Peaceful demonstrators” are not thugs and rioters who attack the Police and cause urban warfare to erupt in the centre of Paris.

                  The reaction of the French Interior Ministry was ghastly, though it’s to be wondered if they didn’t just lose control of some of their Police, but lefty PC multiculturalist propaganda portraying those Police brutalities as having been without any cause is a perfectly sickening example of 1984-type unhistory in action.

  • Conway

    Tuesday Jews were advised by Zvi Ammar, head of Marseille’s Israelite Consistory, to ‘remove the kippah during this troubled time until better days…as soon as we are identified as Jewish we can be assaulted and even risk death.’” Why should they have to change their way of life because the EU has opened the doors to a horde of people with views inimical to the Western way of life?

    • Mow_the_Grass

      Emigration from France to Israel is the highest its been for many years.
      Jews will be leaving for other destinations as well.
      Co-incidentially France has both the largest Jewish and Muslim pop in europe.
      France has the second largest pop of Jews outside of Israel – US largest.

  • Dagenhamboy

    Coming to a large town or inner city near you, courtesy of all the political parties enforced cultural enrichment.
    I weep for my nation and secularism.

  • Dominic Stockford

    Is anyone surprised by this? (other than idiot politicians)

  • CGR

    It’s that ‘Religion of Peace’ again !!!

  • alabenn

    So, the so called separatists troubles reported in The Times about Corsica before Christmas , were actually Islam related and not as they implied, independence problems.
    Unrecorded crime committed by Muslims would make a big difference to so called falling crime figures in the western world, plus the unreported crimes in Muslim no go areas, I think delusion is the biggest growth industry in the Western world.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      No, just you.

      Blaming Muslims for everything…making up crimes and saying they exist really…blaming Muslims for your unwillingness to go near them…

  • The Masked Marvel

    ‘Civil war’ implies French against French. That’s not quite what’s going on here, is it?

    • WTF

      A good point as surveys have revealed all over the west that most Muslims hold allegiance to Islam first & foremost and none to the country that issues their passports. All civil wars that I can think of have been between people of a similar culture such as The War of the Roses, The American War of Independence and what is going on in the middle east right now whilst their stated aim of a global caliphate through force most certainly doesn’t meet that definition.

      • WFC

        Although the religious (civil) wars of the 17th century probably come close.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Ah, your scribblings on the back of the envelope.
        Same as Jews have been accused of, of course, historically.

        As you use thought crime theory, and want to deny citizenship to those not like you…

        • WTF

          Jews during WWII actually had allegiance to the crown and contributed
          in the war effort, in contrast now we have home grown Muslim Jihadists
          waging war against us at home and abroad or is that a fantasy as well !

          Even three young UK Muslim girls went off on a Club Jihadi break to Syria
          but I’m not sure if they are really enjoying themselves when they found
          out their only contribution was cooking, cleaning and servicing the male Jihadists !

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you make your excuses, I see.

            Individuals to you are an excuse for blind hate of a group.
            Well, where have you previously decried Brevik? Or of course you stand with him, per your ideology.

            Feel free to leave, too.

            • WTF

              There’s nothing for me to excuse for when there’s legion of lefties like yourself excusing the actions of young Muslim men carrying out the tenets of their religion !

              • Leon Wolfeson

                You’re not a Muslim, but you seem to think that that justifies anything…

    • WFC

      Yes and no.

      According to the authorities they are French.

      • Conway

        Legally yes, culturally no.

        • Frank

          Big battle going on in France at the moment over the plan to strip French passport from holders with dual nationality who commit terrorist offenses. Wasn’t Britain doing likewise, but seemingly gave up?

          • Mary Ann

            I would have thought it was more sensible to keep them locked up in a separate prison so they can’t radicalise others and can’t cause problems in other countries.

            • vieuxceps2

              Under socialist hatelaws wouldn’t that be discrimination?

            • Frank

              The goal with withdrawing the passports is to be able to kick them out easily. probably best to bring back the death penalty!! Sadly socialist France won’t do this.

              • Leon Wolfeson

                Ah, best to start killing people, trusting the state to not kill innocent people…never mind the evidence it does.

                • Frank

                  There is no much debate about guilt if you catch them in the act. Leon, you are a drip, perhaps you need to visit Israel to see how they combat terrorism.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah yes, always the excuses for trusting the state to kill people. I’m a “drip” because I don’t blindly trust the state…hmm!

                  And Israel has judicially executed one person. Ever. That’d be Eichmann (and that remains controversial)

                • Frank

                  Ha ha, so you think their treatment of pissed off Palestinians has always been perfect? Why are we blessed with your presence?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah, objecting to a British person because…

                  As you ignore the issue is about legal and judicial procedures…

            • kirilov

              The reason they can radicalize others in the US is because of excessive deference to religion. Salafist propaganda is permitted in the US prison system under the 1993 “Religious Freedom Restoration Act”. Unfortunately there’s this misconception that the culture of the West is religious (Christianity or “Judeo-Christianity”), while in fact it’s the Enlightenment.

              • JabbaPapa

                The Endarkenment is not the “source” of western culture.

                • kirilov

                  If you refer to the last 30 years, during which postmodernism has tried to destroy the tradition of the Enlightenment, then certainly I agree with you.

                • JabbaPapa

                  If you refer to the last 30 years

                  I refer to a certain blight on Western civilisation that first appeared in the 17th century, to answer your question.

                  The Endarkenment was the dawn of a secularised ideology of institutionalised slavery, colonialism, imperialism, socio-financial abuse, religious intolerance, and the encouragement of willful ignorance as a virtue.

                • kirilov

                  I see. You’re part of the problem.

                • JabbaPapa

                  What “problem” is that, exactly ?

                  Your unhappiness at someone disagreeing with the foetid racial superiority notions of the 17th Century and later in the name of “progress” ?

                • kirilov

                  Yes, exactly: debasing rationalism and naturalism, and smearing them as having anything to do with racism. The whole bag of horrors of postcolonialism and postmodernism. Ugh!

                • JabbaPapa

                  I see — you’re projecting your own fantasy life again.

                  Quite apart from naturalism having been the source of the vile racialism that was used to “justify” industrialised slavery, Jew-hatred, Stalinism, National Socialism, and the entire shop of horrors of Endarkenment politics, it is *quite* possible to feel shame and disgust at all of these things without being a “postmodernist”.

                • kirilov

                  It’s not possible to associate “all these things” to rationalism and naturalism without being a postmodernist.

                • JabbaPapa

                  That’s a very silly claim.

    • jeffersonian

      French against (Musl*m) barbarians more like.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Yes, you’re not French.

  • WTF

    It was Vienna in the east and Poitier in the south where the Islamic colonization and genocide of Christians was halted all those years ago and the French have every reason to be fearful again.

    We can laugh over Monty Pythons Life of Brian over what did the Romans ever do to Britain, but straight roads & plumbing wasn’t such a bad trade in exchange for a short term of slavery. Now ask what Islam has brought to the world and its a very different story. Be-headings, slavery, protection rackets, rape all of which was racially motivated.

    • pobjoy

      Plumbing? Surely the Anglo-Saxons did not thank the Romans for that. Unlike some other empires, whose culture was admired and shared, the Romans came simply to take, and there was nothing noble about them at all. They were polished savages, in truth, as their Etruscan origins leads one to expect. Roman roads have never been as useful as they might have been, as they were often situated in the wrong places for later transport. They were built to rapidly get legions to deal with insurrections, so their roads do not commend them, anyway, as castles do not commend anyone. The Romans extracted very much mineral resource, permanently, and none of the profits remained in Britain. They massacred many thousands of natives. Slavery is not short term if it’s a life sentence, and Roman occupation can hardly be called short term, historically, anyway. Their advances in agriculture were soon lost. For a millennium after the Romans, the typical Briton lived in penury and a dwelling invaded by vermin, and smoke-filled to reduce fleas.

      So, what have the Romans ever done for us? They set up the perverted religion that inspired Islam, so they have a lot to answer for.

      • WTF

        Quite obviously you don’t get black comedy with elements of truth but in any case, Rome was pretty much long gone by the time that religion of hate arrived on the scene for which they had nothing to do with.

        • pobjoy

          Rome had gone, but its child of perversion was still alive, with its roots in the Etruscan model of a thousand years before.

          • WTF

            Well I must say that I never thought that Roman religion, culture & governance had any similarities to Islam but there we go, who would have thought it !

            I believe its religion depended on knowledge and the correct practice of prayer, ritual, and sacrifice, not on any particular faith or dogma which is very different from Judasim from which Christianity was born and subsequently Islam. It had 12 deities I believe (lucky them) unlike one for the rest of us but I believe it did leave conquered lands to follow their own religion as a matter of stability. Sounds preferable to the convert, pay protection or die that Islam has promoted all through its history.

            Anyway, I’m getting away from my attempt at black humor which was obviously lost on some but we are where we are and Islamic culture is still a major problem for global peace and co-existence how ever you look at it today and no matter what its historical background.

            • JabbaPapa

              Q : who would have thought it !

              A : A paranoid-delusional conspiracy theorist.

        • WFC

          The Romans most certainly hadn’t gone by the time Islam crashed onto the scene. True, the Roman Empire no longer held Rome (it retook Rome from the Ostrogoths, but lost it to the Lombardians in the decades before), but the eastern (and African) empire, based in Constantinople, was still massive.

          Moreover, unlike the Persian empire, it was not crushed by the astonishing Islamic conquests in the decades after Mohammed’s death – notwithstanding that it lost Palestine, Syria and Egypt (provinces it had only recently won back from Persia).

          It survived (in truncated form) for another 800 years after the emergence of Islam.

          • pobjoy

            it was not crushed by the astonishing Islamic conquests in the decades after Mohammed’s death

            This lends support to the notion that the Qur’an was the work of Byzantines who wanted a more secure border to the east, beyond which there may have been believers in Christ who could have destabilised their monolithic, antichrist system. Islam would have neutralised that threat.

            • WFC

              That is a very plausible theory.

              However, the deserts of Arabia were full of “heretics” who had been driven out of the trinitarian Roman Empire, so it is equally possible that the exiled monophysites were primary influences on Islam.

              Nor should one forget that (in a historical irony) the Jews of the Roman Empire – many of whom had fled the new “convert or else” policy – initially welcomed the Islamists as promoters of Judaism.

              • pobjoy

                Monophysitism is not a direct alternative to trinitarianism, though. Neither was trinitarianism the main bone of contention, anyway, as far as Christian belief was concerned, because christology became somewhat irrelevant if there was not even a christ. Priestly sacrifices replaced the eternal sacrifice of Christ, in the West. There would have been some dyophyte, eternal-sacrifice believers east of the empire, especially as there would originally have been many Christian converts from Judaism, as far as India, and their successors would have been the danger for that empire.

                The Etruscan origins of the Romans is the absolutely basic clue to their whole existence, because city, kingdom, republic and empire relied on worship of Jupiter and Juno as means of controlling plebeians, who made the whole thing work. The Roman patricians never gave that up! That worship was under the control of Pontifex Maximus, or High Priest, a role, if not always a title, of Roman Pontiffs (until an embarrassed Ratzinger modified the title, after internet criticism!). The effect of papalism was to discount the atonement of Jesus, as taught in the Bible, which ended human priesthood, and replaced it with the very same priestly sacrificial system of the Romans, but with ‘Christian’ terminology. The Qur’an, in just one sentence, simply said that Jesus did not die! So Islam has no priests, but it has no coherent concept of sacrifice, either. Indeed, it has no coherent soteriology at all. It is very like Eastern Orthodoxy in that respect, actually owing more to humanism than religion. But Islam has enough borrowings from Byzantine theology (e.g. Mariolatry) to make the latter a likely original source.

                • JabbaPapa

                  The Etruscan origin of the Romans is the absolutely basic clue to their whole existence

                  This is, of course, COMPLETE NONSENSE.

                  The Etruscans and the Latins were two among MANY Italic tribes that existed in pre-Roman Italy, and rather than the Etruscans being somehow the Magic pobjoy “origin” of the Latins, the two tribes were enemies and rivals. Latin domination of Italy **began** with the conquering of the Etruscan people, and the end of the Etruscan language and culture.

                  Some elements of Etruscan Art and Craftsmanship/Technology were adopted by the Romans, but the notion that “the Etruscans” are somehow the “basic clue” to the “whole existence” of “the Romans” is UTTER POBJOY GIBBERISH on the basis that NONE of the contents of the Etruscan intellectual life as such survived their being conquered by the Latins. There is NO Etruscan literature, philosophy, theology, nor anything else of that nature in existence — this whole new degree of pobjoy’s bullshit claims is in other words based on EXACTLY NOTHING.

                  That worship was under the control of Pontifex Maximus, or High Priest

                  Another example of completely illiterate pig ignorance from Pobjoy.

                  Pontifex means “Bridge-Maker” not “Priest”. The Pontifexes were an order of priests of the Roman river gods — Roman paganism viewed the building of a bridge as a religious act, that required the permission of the river gods, under the auspices of a pontifex. The Pontifex Maximus/Maxumus was the high priest of this order.

                  Caesar’s Crossing of the Rubicon was as much a religious act as a political one, BTW, as he was the Pontifex Maximus.

                  They were NOT priests of Jupiter, nor were they the religious leaders of the Roman Pagan Religion.

                  It evolved into an Imperial Title belonging to the Emperor only AFTER Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar had permanently established the Imperator as the political and religious Leader of the Roman Empire.

                  Pobjoy’s ridiculously paranoid story reverses the order of these events, to claim that a consequence of the Caesars’ coup d’état was its origin, mixed in with some fantasy “etruscan” rubbish, and some COMPLETELY false claims about religious leadership in Republican Latium.

                  there would originally have been many Christian converts from Judaism, as far as India, and their successors would have been the danger for that empire

                  How much marijuana do you smoke daily ?

                • pobjoy

                  Public Warning.

                • JabbaPapa

                  You are an idiot and an ignorant.

                • WFC

                  Probably the biggest continuing controversy within Christianity in the decades leading up to Islam was between the monophysites and the trinitarians, and the attempts by the Emperor to force trinitarianism on the empire.

                  (That is cited as a reason why monophysite Egypt might have fallen so easily to the Muslims.)

                  Add to that, the continued persecution of Arians, and the “convert or leave” ultimatum to the Jews – who had been insufficiently upset by the invasions from Persia – and you have an empire ripe for disorder.

                  You are also likely to have many heretics and Jews in a part of the world which was outside both Rome and Persia at the time – Arabia. That was the well – one of them – from which Islam might have been drawn.

                • pobjoy

                  Byzantines were well aware that trinitarianism was nonsense. That is why they could make Islam seem virtuous by having it point out the nonsense, as indeed Muslims continued to do, prominently. This gave them a sense of rectitude, but their own stance was deeply heretical. Heretics accusing heretics to bolster their own followings, while ignoring the orthodoxy, as if it did not exist, was to become a common practice.

                  I’m sure you will agree.

                • WFC

                  Depends who you mean by “Byzantines”. The powers that be had settled on the “three in one” compromise – which continues to this day in trinitarian Christianity – but I don’t doubt that some in Constantinople would have continued to hold out against it: as the Copts in Egypt did.

                • pobjoy

                  Depends who you mean by “Byzantines”.

                  Who else could it mean but ‘the eastern (and African) empire, based in Constantinople,’ that ‘was still massive’?

                  The powers that be had settled on the “three in one” compromise

                  That is not relevant to, an alternative to, the nature of Christ on earth.

                  It appears that WFC was completely convinced by the view that the Qur’an was the work of Byzantines who wanted a more secure border to the east, beyond which there may have been believers in Christ who could have destabilised their monolithic, antichrist system; and that Islam would have neutralised that threat.

                • WFC

                  As I’ve already mentioned, different parts of the empire held to different versions.

                  I’ve mentioned monophysite Egypt, North Africa still had a large number of Arians (inherited from the Goths and vandals), meanwhile, in Palestine and Syria, alongside the Jews, you even found remnants of the original “church” of Jewish Christians. And that is before you even start on those sects who were across the Persian border.

                  In the period leading up to the emergence of Islam, the Romans had suffered invasions from Persia (which got as far as Egypt) – which had only recently been reversed. (One of the Koranic verses is believed to refer to that “recent”) invasion.)

                  It had also suffered a devastating outbreak of bubonic plague, which had (more than) decimated its population. (Which went on to wreak equal, if not greater, havoc in the Persian empire – but left Arabia relatively untouched.)

                  The worst time, one might think, for an emperor (Heracles?) to try to impose a compulsory doctrine on his empire!

                  As for wanting a secure border to the east, that was the function of what remained of the Roman army, and the fortified outposts. Both the Romans and the Persians employed Arab “confederations” to fight for them, but, after the plagues, neither could afford them any more – which goes some way to explaining their success after they decided to go into business for themselves.

                  So I’m afraid that I’m not “completely convinced” by your last paragraph, interesting theory that it is. I would add that if that had been the plan, it backfired spectacularly!

                • pobjoy

                  I’ve mentioned monophysite Egypt

                  You could throw in a recipe for kousa mahshi. It would be no less relevant, and useful.

                • JabbaPapa

                  Your own recipe for atheist mish-mash is hardly palatable.

                • JabbaPapa

                  I’m sure you will agree

                  Heretics will tend to agree with Heretics.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  You missed the Rites of Mithras in there.

                • pobjoy

                  So sorry. Mustn’t forget the kweers.

              • JabbaPapa

                That is a very plausible theory

                Are you joking ? It’s one of the most whackjob pieces of complete delusion I’ve ever seen.

              • Dr. Heath

                Excellent post. The first mention of ‘muslims’ comes very late on in the history of the military expansion of this poorly understood, seventh-century dissident movement. At first, they were referred to as ‘believers’. Their liturgy and other scraps of evidence points to them being a sort of fundamentalist Christian sect with stridently unitarian beliefs that have endured in teachings of the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses and other groups. In our century, scholars still do not know precisely where the Muhajirun came from or which enemies ‘God’ had directed them to fight. Relying on Islamic religious writings as sources for historical research has, for obvious reasons, led nowhere in the search for answers to these mysteries and growing participation in genuine historical research in this field is a fairly new development.

                • WFC

                  And the evidence from the early rise is literally “scraps”, much of which comes from the people they attacked.

                  The absence of records, letters, official documents etc from the first 200 years of (explosive) Muslim expansion is quite extraordinary. Some have said that it can only have been the result of an awful lot of “tidying up” during the period (8th/9th century) when the religion was being codified.

            • JabbaPapa

              Wow. I think that’s the new high water mark of your paranoid delusional nutjob fruitcakery.

              Impressive.

              What next ? Was 9/11 a Catholic conspiracy ? The assassination of JFK ? The eruption of Krakatoa ? The MJ12 secret alien invasion ? The destruction of Alderaan by the Death Star ?

              • BritishPatriot

                Isn’t it pobjoy that blames T-H-E J-E-W-S for everything bad that has ever happened, or am I perhaps thinking of someone else? In my defence, all these disturbed commenters blur into one amorphous, shrieking mass after a while.

                • JabbaPapa

                  That’s a temptation that I try my best to resist, BP.

                  These idiots don’t exactly make it easy, with their clichés and uneducated sameness.

      • JabbaPapa

        aaaaaaah, another of pobjoy’s idiosyncratic “history” lessons, wherein his personal fantasy life determines events in the past.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Yea, why….hmm…

      Say, why did the Jews do better under Muslims than Christians for several millennium?

      • WTF

        Apart from you, who claims they did fare better as why were they scattered across Europe. Several millennium ? Christianity has only been around for 2100 years and at the beginning, Jews were under Roman rule.

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Those darn “historian” people, for example.

          And right, 2100 years – and until very, very recently, Jews did better under Islam than under Christianity. (And much of the current issue comes, when one comes to it, to British meddling)

          • WTF

            British meddling ? As Alan B’Stard would say, “Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear”. History isn’t your strong point is it ?

            Firstly France and Spain were the main colonial powers in the 16th century 1000 years after Islam started its continuing global colonization conquest of the globe. British colonialism started in the 17th/18th century after France lost a series of wars so in total, Britain was a global colonizer for barely 200 years compared to Islams on going 1400+ years of colonization by force. Perhaps there’s a connection with the same number of young girls gang raped in Rotherham, one for each year, who knows ?

            Anyway I digressed, the way you call it, the UK has been subjugating Jews since the birth of Christ but I can’t find any evidence to support that and you have made claims but offered no evidence. Jews even fought alongside the British against the Ottoman empire if my history serves me right. The only time that I’m aware that there was a brief falling out with some Jews was over Palestine after WWII. Considering the UK was bankrupted and the ONLY country in Europe that stood up to Germany, you’re being very disingenuous with the truth in that the UK was worn out after 6 years of war.

            In summary, I have Jewish friends and one very close one in particular and have never had any hint of the slightest chip on any of their shoulders towards non Jews in the UK or back in the 80’s even Muslims.

            Where did you get your boulder ?

            • Leon Wolfeson

              Yea, I stick with the basics. As you ignore the 20th Century.

              As you then come up with things I never said…deny the contrition of other countries, etc.

              As you mention people who’d I’d warn about the danger they’re clearly in…as you want to hit me with a boulder. Hmm.

  • justejudexultionis

    So-called ‘moderate’ Islam is merely a front and useful decoy for the Islamists. Manipulative Islamists such as Tariq Ramadan are merely biding their time until they can destroy the west from inside. The only solution is to drive Islam, in all its forms, from Europe entirely.

    • Dalgliesh

      And also drive out the communists, socialists and other anti pluralist/heterodox nihilists.

    • Ronovitch

      Kick out everybody apart from the sad keyboard warriors who spew hate on comment threads, eh. You’d love that.

    • Miss Floribunda Rose

      Moderate Islam is the grass, radical Islam is the snake……

  • GnosticBrian

    Sky Faery cults displaying their love for their fellow man by murder and mayhem – nothing new there.

    • justejudexultionis

      True, but non-sky fairy cults do the same (Marxist Leninism).

      • GnosticBrian

        And that justifies the practice?

      • Zalacain

        So, moral of the story is, let’s avoid all irrational cults.

        • Icebow

          Rationalism is irrational.

          • BritishPatriot

            War is peace! Freedom is slavery! Ignorance is strength!

    • JabbaPapa

      Another “fine” observation from BlindfoldBrian !!!

      • GnosticBrian

        Another ad hominem attack from JabbaPappa.

        • JabbaPapa

          Pointing out that you contribute nothing but rubbish is not an ad hominem.

          • GnosticBrian

            And another ad hominem attack – clear indication that you’ve run out of cogent argument; not that you had any in the first instance!

            • JabbaPapa

              Given how much sheer ill-educated tripe you post on a daily basis, you’re ill-placed to comment on the notion of cogent argument.

              • GnosticBrian

                “ill-educated”? I have a PhD from a top Russell Group University awarded long before the decline in standards that lead to thinking such as yours – assertion without evidence. You just don’t cut it.

                • JabbaPapa

                  What, back in the 1970s, when Trotskyist atheism was being taught to everyone and his pet dog ?

                  One would at **least** have thought that any semi-decent PhD would lead to the avoidance of posting your brand of ignorant pseudo-history.

                • GnosticBrian

                  Earlier than that. And I’ve never had a single lesson in “Trotskyist atheism” – but lots on Sky Faery Christianity.

                  My interest in history is largely with the first 10-34 (to to the minus thirtyfour seems to puzzle this site) of a second after the Big Bang; a time when really interesting things took place.

                • JabbaPapa

                  Theoretical astrophysics is not “history”.

                • GnosticBrian

                  That you should think so shows your total ignorance of the subject.

                  “History” – the study of past events.

                  Another of your epic fails.

                • JabbaPapa

                  “History” – the study of past events

                  Astrophysical theories are not “events” in the historical sense of the word — History is in fact the study of the past through documents. The study of the past prior to the existence of documentation, and particularly prior to the invention of writing, is called Prehistory/Prehistorical Studies/Palaeontology.

                • GnosticBrian

                  Oh yes they are – kindly refresh your understanding of relativity.

                • JabbaPapa

                  History does not study astrophysical phenomena, you nincompoop.

                • GnosticBrian

                  The ad hominem attack shows you’ve run out of cogent argument.

                  Astronomical events ALL take place in the past – the further away from us, the more distant past. History involves the study of the past. That the narrow minded can’t embrace its full scope is no surprise.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Funny, you appear to have confused Trotsky and Marxist-Leninism.

                  Tip – They don’t get on.

                • vieuxceps2

                  Led,not lead. PhD indeed!

                • GnosticBrian

                  “Led,not lead” with no space separating the first and second words…pot and kettle spings to mind.

                  In case it over taxes your brain to have understood – my PhD was not in English; literature or language.

                • vieuxceps2

                  Poor Bri! You try refutation and make four more howlers.Pot,kettle and pan “spings” to mind.

                • JabbaPapa

                  What is it with these material scientists who imagine themselves to somehow be magically competent in any of the Humanities ? Einstein was a rare exception of one of them who *understood* Literary and Philosophical theory and methodology, and indeed practised them quite competently indeed — but what’s up with this fool who has NO UNDERSTANDING of Grammar, Grammar Theory, Rhetorics, **ANY** of the Humanities, and yet thinks he can deliver competent opinion to the interwebs on these and related topics ???

                • vieuxceps2

                  Dunno,Jabba. Got any theories?

                • GnosticBrian

                  Oh good, fewer than in your current post.

                • JabbaPapa

                  a top Russell Group University

                  translated into English : an ex-polytechnic

                • GnosticBrian

                  Strange – the post on site does not match the email notification which read:

                  a top Russell Group University translated into English : an ex-polytechnic

                  You appear to be as ignorant of Universities as you are about Gospel authorship. In the sixties there were no “ex-polytechnics” and, as far as I’m aware, no Russell Group University was ever a poly – which one do you think was?

    • King Kibbutz

      With perhaps a little modification. One ‘cult’ poses no danger whatsoever to those of a secular outlook; the other does.
      Which is actually a massive modification.

      • GnosticBrian

        Tell that to the Tutsis massacred by Christians, or the Jews massacred by Christians, or the Soviet citixzens masacred by Christians, or the citizens of Srebrenica…

        • Cobbett

          you got their number?

          • GnosticBrian

            That yhou find mass murder funny tells me all I need to know about you.

            Help is there for you if you care to look for it.

        • King Kibbutz

          The Tutsis were hacked to death by Hutus – a very tribal massacre.
          Jews have been the victims of pogroms, yes some carried out by Christians, but nothing of that nature is happening now.
          What Soviets? And as for Srebrenica, that whole war was stopped by Christians.
          Nothing’s perfect. The practicalities of the situation the world is in today – not at some time in the past – are that secularism can live safely alongside some religions. Unfortunately, not all.

          • GnosticBrian

            Timothy Longman has provided the most detailed discussion of the role of religion in the Rwandan genocide in Christianity and Genocide in Rwanda, published in 2010. Longman says that both Catholic and Protestant churches helped to make
            the genocide possible by giving moral sanction to the killing.

            Why the Soviets – because Christian Germans murdered 27 million of them to “protect western Christian civilisation from the Judeo-Bolshevik horde”.

            So the massacre by Christians at Srebrenica was OL because they stopped?

            • JabbaPapa

              Longman says that both Catholic and Protestant churches helped to make the genocide possible by giving moral sanction to the killing

              Longman sounds like a complete liar, then.

              because Christian Germans murdered 27 million of them to “protect western Christian civilisation from the Judeo-Bolshevik horde”

              You would be unable to support this ludicrous claim with any evidence.

              • GnosticBrian

                There you go again – anyone who does not agree with you is either deluded or a liar or both.

                The expert commission set up under Gorbachev estimated Soviet war dead at 26.6 million. But you doubtless don’t trust Russian sources. So this from the Eisenhower Institute: “…the USSR, depending on which historian you believe, would lose at least 11,000,000 soldiers (killed and missing) as well as somewhere between 7,000,000 and 20,000,000 million of its civilian population during the Great Patriotic War”. However you cut it, truly massive numbers.

                On July 17, 1941 the OKW declared that the Wehrmacht was to:

                “free itself from all elements among the prisoners of war considered
                Bolshevik driving forces. The special situation of the Eastern Campaign
                therefore demands special measures [an euphemism for killing]
                which are to be carried out free from bureaucratic and administrative
                influence and with a willingness to accept responsibility. While so far
                the regulations and orders concerning prisoners of war were based solely
                on military considerations, now the political objective
                must be attained, which is to protect the German nation from Bolshevik
                inciters and forthwith take the occupied territory strictly in hand”.

                In a directive sent out to the troops under his command, General Erich Hoepner of the Panzer Group 4 stated:

                “The war against Russia is an important chapter in the German nation’s
                struggle for existence. It is the old battle of the Germanic against the
                Slavic people, of the defence of European culture against
                Muscovite-Asiatic inundation and of the repulse of Jewish Bolshevism.
                The objective of this battle must be the demolition of present-day
                Russia and must therefore be conducted with unprecedented severity.
                Every military action must be guided in planning and execution by an
                iron resolution to exterminate the enemy remorselessly and totally. In
                particular, no adherents of the contemporary Russian Bolshevik system
                are to be spared”.

                Clear?

                • JabbaPapa

                  The expert commission set up under Gorbachev estimated Soviet war dead at 26.6 million

                  Soviet Russia was officially atheist, you nincompoop.

                  On July 17, 1941 the OKW declared that the Wehrmacht was to

                  N@zi Germany was founded on atheist principles, you nincompoop.

                  Is this **really** the best you can come up with ? To blame Christianity for the horrors of totalitarian State Atheism ?

            • King Kibbutz

              Get a grip mate. You can drip you poison all you want, but anything you can cite about past Christian actions, is dwarfed by what is afoot right now.

              • vieuxceps2

                In any case, it is you too-ery which is entirely meaningless in that it does not excuse any party involved.

              • GnosticBrian

                Excuse me? You think that 40 mi8llion murders by Christians in living memory is “dwarfed by what is afoot right now” – delusional or what…

                And for your information I support NONE of the Sky Faery cults.

                • King Kibbutz

                  Yes Brian, your support for NONE of the Sky Faery cults has been trotted out famously.
                  Your figures are based on your own very selective ideas of what constitutes murder and on what motivated the actions in the events you cite.

                • GnosticBrian

                  Hitler told Himmler that it
                  was not enough for the Jews simply to die; they must die in agony. What
                  was the best way to prolong their agony? Himmler turned the problem over
                  to his advisers, who concluded that a slow, agonizing death could be
                  brought about by placing Jewish prisoners in freight cars in which the
                  floors were coated with…quicklime…which produced excruciating burns.
                  The advisers estimated that it would take four days for the prisoners
                  to die, and for that whole time the freight cars could be left standing
                  on some forgotten siding…. Finally it was decided that the freight
                  cars should be used in addition to the extermination camps.

                  —-Robert Payne, The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler

                  Do they support that on the Kibbutz?

                • King Kibbutz

                  And this can be pinned to which Sky Faery cult?

                • GnosticBrian

                  So you can’t answer my question – why should I answer yours?

                • King Kibbutz

                  Your question?
                  ‘Do they support that [murdering Jews] on the Kibbutz?’?

                  Got me stumped there mate.

                • GnosticBrian

                  Then go back to sites that don’t stretch your ability to comprehend.

                • King Kibbutz

                  I’ll just plough-on here for a while.

                • JabbaPapa

                  40 mi8llion murders by Christians

                  You seem to be confusing totalitarian atheism with “Christianity”.

                • GnosticBrian

                  You reckon that the Serbs who conducted the Srebrenica massacre wqere atheists? Evidence?

                  The Hutus who massacred the Tutsis; evidence?

                  The Germans who massacred Jews and Soviet citizens (and my Uncle outside Dunkirk)?

                  I suppose that you believe this Christian is really a totalitarian atheist: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3403211/Christian-Army-veteran-killed-Muslim-wife-five-year-old-daughter-execution-style-writing-Arabic-walls-blood-committing-suicide.html

                • JabbaPapa

                  You reckon that the Stalinists who slaughtered 300 million in Soviet Russia weren’t imposing totalitarian State atheism by force and violence ?

                • GnosticBrian

                  Stalin was a religiously educated Georgian orthodox who had ambitions to be a priest – what is it that the Church says about give us the boy and we will give you the man?

                  How did Stalin manage to slaughter 300 million out of a population of 160 million? Such wild over exaggeration destroys your credibilty. Provide a lnk to a reliable source for your statistic.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  No, your cult has no “Sky Faery”. And?

                • GnosticBrian

                  To quote Groucho (not your friend, Karl), I wouldn’t belong to any cult that would have me as a member!

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  And yet there you are!

                  There’s also the fact that the only form of Marxist-Lennism I’m interested in involves Groucho Marx and John Lennon. That’s also an artistic interest.

                  My ideology is does not descent from socialism or communism, you’re lashing out blindly.

                • GnosticBrian

                  Why the intolerance of anyone who doesn’t share your opinion? Grow up.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  I don’t share your intolerance. Or as you do, hate kids.

                  You were wrong about my ideology, and are clearly lashing out.

                • GnosticBrian

                  Yet more disembling.

                  Time to stop feeding you, get back under your bridge.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Yes, you do dissemble, as you try desperately to get me to go home with you.
                  That’s getting creepy now.

                • GnosticBrian

                  Not feeding you today, back under your bridge!

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Yes yes, you want me to move in and pay for my own food. Creepier and creepier.

                • GnosticBrian

                  I don’t feed you anymore, back under your bridge!

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you’re spamming me with the same crap, as apparently your non-religion in your head and your Sky Farey / Great Noodly One dictates you “must”, and I’ll report you for it.

                • GnosticBrian

                  Do what you feel you need to – I’m not feeding you anymore; get back under your bridge.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  You’re spamming me, again, right. Your Sky Faerie obviously told you to try and starve people or some-such, and you’re obeying.

                  The cult you belong to, which wants you as a member…you obviously lied…

                • GnosticBrian

                  I refuse to feed you but I am waiting for you to deliver on your bombastic threat.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  You keep screaming you’re Starvation Man, as you talk about some other post in your head…

                • GnosticBrian

                  Given up waiting on you to deliver on your bombastic threat, bye!

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you “give up” on your imagination and run off. Right.

              • Leon Wolfeson

                Yes, your far right’s rising again…

                • King Kibbutz

                  Precisely what is far right Leon?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Your excuses for them roll on.

                • King Kibbutz

                  Substance?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  “Substance?”

                  No, there’s no substance in your excuses.
                  Thanks for asking, though.

                • King Kibbutz

                  Look, you’re obviously young, but you’re surely not this immature?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you also hate kids.

                  I simply answered your question – you think that’s “immature”.

        • JabbaPapa

          No prizes for guessing which brand of religious hatred **you** prefer, eh, BlindfoldBrian ?

          • GnosticBrian

            None whatsoever – as I’ve repeatedly said I don’t subscribe to ANY Sky Faery cult.

            • JabbaPapa

              You express your ghastly religious hatred on an almost hourly basis, and have the sheer **gall** to try and pretend it doesn’t exist ? Sickening.

              • GnosticBrian

                I do indeed have a dislike of all Sky Faery cults and have NEVER tried to hide that.

                You really must try and do better.

            • Leon Wolfeson

              Yea, at least you don’t use that excuse for your hate.

              • GnosticBrian

                I have no need to excuse that which I’ve not done.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So indeed, no excuse for your hate, which you have espoused. Right, glad you agree with me.

                • GnosticBrian

                  As I said Leon, I’ve no need to apologise for that which I’ve not done; your contrary characterisation notwithstanding.

                  Have a fun and frolic filled New Year – oh, sorry sky faery cultists like you don’t do joy and happiness that is why you are forever insulting others – culture of love indeed….

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Indeed, shame about what you do. As you blame me for your issues…again.

                  As you demand I be your sort of cultist, and as you rage at me, throwing your insults and showing your hate as ever. You’re utterly intolerant, as ever.

                • GnosticBrian

                  Why are you so miserable – you vent your spleen like the archetypal Kipper propping up a bar.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  You’re projecting at me from your life again.

                • GnosticBrian

                  Selective reading – I didn’t say that you were a kipper just that you vented your spleen like one.

                  Feeding time is over, get back under your bridge.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  No, just mockery, but hey, you keep whining.

                  As you for the third time demand I go home with you..

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Really, your far right seem like a danger…

        • King Kibbutz

          Again, what is ‘the far right’ and who is in danger from it?

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Keep making those excuses.

  • jim

    I am convinced that only violent collective punishment will housetrain moslems(at the hands of the mob if necessary)but this will only be a temporary solution. We must dramatically reduce the moslem presence in europe.Otherwise civil war is inevitable. Schengen is dead.Seal the borders.Turn back the boats. Slash welfare. Expel.Deport.Repatriate.There is no choice now.

    • GnosticBrian

      How succesful has collective punishment been in helping Israel get along with Palestinians? Might it, just, have made the problem worse?

      • justejudexultionis

        What other choice do we have? We cannot sift through the entire Muslim population of Europe but we must act. The only solution is to have done with Islam entirely.

        • cartimandua

          Well deny the public customs which separate Muslims from everyone else.

        • GnosticBrian

          And because the Christian Germans massacred millions of Jews and tens of millions of Soviets; the Christian Hutus massacred a million Tutsi – the only solution is to have done with Christianity entirely? What other choice do we have?

          • The Masked Marvel

            Evidence that any of them were doing it in the name of Christianity? You can provide numerous eyewitness accounts of Auschwitz guards shouting a Christian benediction when turning on the gas, yes? It was common practice for the SS and their troops to recite the Lord’s Prayer whilst gunning down women and children lined up in front of trenches? Both the Hutu and Tutsi are largely Christian (Catholic) peoples, and that was most certainly not analogous to the Thirty Years War. Try again.

            • GnosticBrian

              German soldiers swore an oath that began “Ich schwöre bei Gott diesen heiligen Eid…” – my schoolboy German trnslates that as “I swear by God this holy oath…”. On their belT buckles they carried the statement “Gott mit uns” which I translate as “God is with us”.

              I am personally less well informed when it comes to Rwandan affairs. This is from Wike: “When the Roman Catholic missionaries
              came to Rwanda in the late 1880s, they contributed to the “Hamitic”
              theory of race origins, which taught that the Tutsi were a superior
              race. The Church has been considered to have played a significant role
              in fomenting racial divisions between Hutu and Tutsi, in part because
              they found more willing converts among the majority Hutu”.

              Timothy Longman, Christianity and Genocide in Rwanda New York: Cambridge University Press, 2010 argues that both Catholic and Protestant churches helped to make the
              genocide possible by giving moral sanction to the killing. Churches had
              longed played ethnic politics themselves, favoring the Tutsi during the
              colonial period then switching allegiance to the Hutu after 1959,
              sending a message that ethnic discrimination was consistent with church
              teaching. The church leaders had also long had close ties with the
              political leaders, and after the genocide began, the church leaders
              called on the population to support the new interim government, the very
              government supporting the genocide.

              • The Masked Marvel

                That’s correlation not causation.

                • GnosticBrian

                  No; they are facts. You may not like them but they are facts.

                • Conway

                  They may be facts, but what you infer from them is merely an opinion.

                • GnosticBrian

                  No. There was a pretty heavy duty enquiry into the Rwandan affair. You may not like what it found but you have to face up to the facts.

                • BritishPatriot

                  Well, prior to World War II the Soviet Union had already killed millions of its own citizens, had established a massive system of camps where dissidents were worked to death, had pioneered ethnic cleansing, and was funding revolutionaries worldwide, so those who saw it as a threat to European civilization had a point.

              • Miss Floribunda Rose

                Africans sound a bit thick, if you ask me, to be so easily manipulated…..

                • GnosticBrian

                  A tad racist.

                • Miss Floribunda Rose

                  Yes, they are a tad racist, aren’t they? The Hootsies and the Tootsies are constantly at each other’s throats. It is the same all over the Dark Continent! Personally, I blame tribalism for this sad state of affairs……

                • GnosticBrian

                  No. But you are a racist.

                • Miss Floribunda Rose

                  I am a Gnostic.

                • GnosticBrian

                  I very much doubt that – I’m not, but a Rose by any other name would smell just as sweet, unless it is a particular Floribunda.

                • Miss Floribunda Rose

                  How very true……

          • 2fishypoliticians

            Why don’t you research Islamic history? Is the truth too much for you? Your hatred of Christianity is VERY interesting… hmmmm…

            • GnosticBrian

              Why should I?

              I had Christianity force fed to me at school I don’t want to waste any of the little time now lest to me studying anopther Sky Faery cult.

              By the way, I have no specific hatred of Christianity; I consider ALL Sky Faery cults to be much of a muchness.

              • Icebow

                Those who use ‘sky fairy’ as if they were making some sort of point are contemptible.

                • GnosticBrian

                  Your opinion, and I feel no need to stone you to death or burn you at the stake for holding it.

              • turriseburnea

                Poor lickle thing…!

                • GnosticBrian

                  You Christian compassion shines out – not.

              • 2fishypoliticians

                Well if you think Christianity is restrictive, just wait for Islam to influence proceedings…it will happen if Christianity vanishes and then things will turn like so much of the modern middle eastern tragedy.

                • GnosticBrian

                  I don’t recall saying that Christianity was “restrictive”. I do think it, and all other Sky Faery cults, are wrong.

                  Fortunately I don’t think we face a bipolar choice – Christianity or Islam. We can opt to think and behave rationally free from bronze age dogma of whatever kind.

      • anotherjoeblogs

        ‘ Get along ‘ ??? How trite.

        • GnosticBrian

          Where did I say ‘Get along’? Making up quotes to further an anti-Muslim agenda, how trite.

          • anotherjoeblogs

            ” How succesful (?) has collective punishment been in helping Israel get along with Palestinians?

            • GnosticBrian

              Well, how succesful has it been?

              • anotherjoeblogs

                How can an enlightened state like Israel ‘ get on ‘ with people who want to wipe them out and raise children to be shaheed – martyrs – as being the highest expression of existence ? last comment.

                • GnosticBrian

                  “Enlightened” -= a state that, for example, fires heavy artillery at school boys playing football on a beach? Unusual interpretation of the word.

              • polidorisghost

                Kept them alive

                • GnosticBrian

                  No, they were (as I think you know) killed.

      • cartimandua

        No , it has held the line. Islam makes failed states because of the way women are “set to breeding”.

      • The Masked Marvel

        Good job enlightened folk like you weren’t around to prevent ‘collective punishment’ against the German population during the war.

        • GnosticBrian

          What collective punishment was imposed on the German population during the war (that they started) and by whom?

          • The Masked Marvel

            Is that some sort of sick joke?

            • GnosticBrian

              Not intended as such. I was genuinely seeking clarification of your previous post. If you don’t want to clarify, fine.

          • polidorisghost

            Mass bombing – RAF USAF
            Mass rape, Mass deportation – Russian army

            • GnosticBrian

              Remind me, who was it bombed Guernica; Rotterdam; London; Coventry (and dozens of other UK cities); Belgrade; Stalingrad (killing 40,000 in one raid)…they sowed the wind, they reaped the whirlwind.

              There wasn’t a “Russian army” in WW2. The Workers and Peasants’ Red Army was the Army of the Soviet Union. On the way to Berlin, the Red Army fought over land ravaged by ordinary German soldiers; 27 million Soviet citizens killed; the Red Army were the first to liberate the few survivors of the mass death factories in Eastern Europe; I doubt that there was a single soldier in the Red Army who had not suffered a direct family loss at the hands of the Germans. They wanted and they took vengeance.

              Oh, and Stalin (a Georgian who studied for and wanted to be a priest – what is it about: give me the child, I’ll give you the man?) treated Soviet citizens exactly the same way as he treated German.

              • polidorisghost

                “Remind me, who was it bombed Guernica; Rotterdam; London; Coventry (and dozens of other UK cities); Belgrade; Stalingrad (killing 40,000 in one
                raid)”
                The Germans.

                “they sowed the wind, they reaped the whirlwind.”
                I know

                “They wanted and they took vengeance.”
                I know

                • GnosticBrian

                  Sadly the Germans received less than they has dished out. And now they are back looking for European domination by other means.

                • polidorisghost

                  Mad as the proverbial hatter aren’t you

                • GnosticBrian

                  No, I’m fairly placid.

                  My mother-in-law, who endured the 900 day blockade of Leningrad, would have happily exterminated the entire German race. Losing almost everyone in her extended family and having to “live” on bread that included wall paper paste and sawdust coloured her opinion of Germans.

                  The German army deliberatly set out to starve to death a city of 4 million people and then intended to erase all trace of it ever having been there. The Germans should count themselves fortunate that the Red Army did not do the same to Berlin.

                • polidorisghost

                  “No, I’m fairly placid.”

                  Quite possibly, but still mad

                • GnosticBrian

                  No.

                  You have to learn that rational beings may not share your delusions. It is a part of growing up.

            • Miss Floribunda Rose

              It served them right.

              • polidorisghost

                I agree

  • Terry Field

    All this gives the lie to the putrid, dishonest established left who claim there is no internal Muslim threat and no lack if integration. Ghetto living and violence dominates France and Britain. The left has ruined Europe, now to include Germany

    • flipkipper

      Since when are Muslim women assaulting people?
      Since when is Merkel a left wing politician?

      Stupidity knows no bounds with some piffle Terrys.

      • anotherjoeblogs

        Have you heard of the Tooth to Tail ratio ?

      • cartimandua

        Muslim women who wear the hijab are throwing every other woman to the wolves. They are NOT innocent.

        • flipkipper

          whatevva matey init.

          • telemachus

            There is actually a serious point here
            *
            The media are using every opportunity to style current terrorist attacks as a reason for a modern day internal crusade
            Instead of using these attacks as a reason to attack and alienate the Muslim community of which there are 2.6 million in our fair land
            We should redouble our efforts to embrace and fully integrate our compatriots who simply attend mosques rather than churches

            • JabbaPapa

              Multiculturallahu Akbar !!!

              • Leon Wolfeson

                Ah, the evils of allowing i.e. Sikhs and Jews…

                • jeffersonian

                  Why besmirch two entirely innocent religious groups, to avoid blame falling on the Musl*ms?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  I didn’t. He just called for monoculturalism. That allows one (1) culture and religion.

                  There is precisely one (1) monocult today – North Korea.
                  Which has done things like, oh, execute people for owning bibles.

                • jeffersonian

                  ‘Which has done things like, oh, execute people for owning bibles’

                  Sounds like just up your alley.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  No, see, I’m not your sort of monocultist. But hey, facts and reading I know.

                • jeffersonian

                  That’s precisely what you are, in addition to being dishonest and treacherous.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah, soy you scream I must be like you. Exactly like you.

                  No, I’m not. I support Britain, against your type of zealot.

                • jeffersonian

                  ‘I support Britain’

                  Mmm methinks not.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  No, you don’t think do you, enemy of Britain?

                  Blind hate is easier than thought, after all.

                • jeffersonian

                  …and blind appeasement is easiest of all

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Yes, well, your views there are your choice.

                • JabbaPapa

                  He just called for monoculturalism

                  Did I ?

                  That’s news to me …

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you deny your post. k.

                • JabbaPapa

                  I deny whatever nonsense it is that you’ve read into it.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So, you state very clearly that you deny your post, and that you consider replies nonsense, right.

                • Russ Littler

                  You mean,….like Islam?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  No. You’re just showing thought crime theory there.

                  Islamism, your brand of extremism… same basic ideas when you come down to it.

            • BritishPatriot

              Upvoted for ongoing satirical excellence.

              • Omallet

                Up voted for so expertly taking the p… out of sillymachus

            • vieuxceps2

              Of course, Tele. It’s our fault. Let me know how to embrace our”compatriots” without being beheaded, won’t you? Perhaps we”ll see them in church will we?

              • telemachus

                Embrace
                And respect their religion

                • Omallet

                  Not sure they want an embrace from us Kuffirs certainly there is plenty of actual evidence that they do not want to embrace us and as for respect their religion I guess we had better or we risk being murdered ! And that is why I struggle to respect it can’t I just ignore it or does that make me a target too

                • vieuxceps2

                  The best thing any muslim can do is to renounce the absurd creed of islam. .Come to think of it, all believers of all religions should renounce their belief. Muslims of course will be killed, but hey, there’s too many anyway so no problem.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah, so you want to kill people. Lots of people.
                  Hmm!

                • jeffersonian

                  Hmmm indeed.

                • mohdanga

                  “And respect their religion.” Prize for the idiotic comment of the year! Yes, the Muslims are so tolerant of non-Muslims…..you are deluded.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  You’re utterly intolerant of other views, so…

                • jeffersonian

                  …particularly if those other ‘views’ imply Islamofascism

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you hate those who try and spew your own views? Er…

                • jeffersonian

                  Ah…’hate’ again? No, far too much effort. Contempt will do nicely for the likes of you.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you deny your repeated posts.

                  As you say you have contempt for Jews….right.
                  (You didn’t read my post, or indeed your own post where you made your error…)

                • jeffersonian

                  Oh no, not at all. Jews, as they have showed in their homeland of Israel, are supremely capable, productive, moral and enlightened people. If only there were more of them in the UK than PLY. (People like you)

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you want more targets in reach because you think Jews are better than you? Hmm!

                • jeffersonian

                  Oh dear, I think we’re slipping. But then PLY are slippery…

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  You claim to be a “PLY”. Hmm!

                • will

                  Why? It was started by a guy who nailed boys, girls, and his own daughter-in-law.

                • hobspawn

                   “Embrace And respect their religion”

                  Quran 47, 3-4: “Those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord… So, when you meet (fight Jihad in Allah’s Cause) those who disbelieve, smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)… If it had been Allah’s Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost.”

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Thanks for expressing your views here.
                  Hmm!

                • hobspawn

                   “Thanks for expressing your views here.”

                  Nothing in that post constitutes my ‘views’. It is a verse from the Quran, as I made clear. The Quran is the immutable word of god according to all muslims, by definition. It says smiting infidels by the neck is how Allah has determined to test who is faithful. The refusal to accept that this is the nature of Islam explains the confusion in the West every time an obedient muslim redecorates a street with body parts.
                   

                • James M

                  They *might* love us, if we all become Mohammedans. Except that most victims of Mohammedans, are other Mohammedans. So maybe we should stay unMohammedan.

            • Kingstonian

              The day they start to integrate with us will be the day I uptick your ridiculous comment. How are WE supposed to integrate THEM?

              • Leon Wolfeson

                So you upticked it, right. Thanks.

            • colchar

              Why should we make the effort to integrate them? Why shouldn’t they be the ones to make the effort to integrate?

            • Russ Littler

              No they don’t. If only it were that simple. Have you ever seen a country where Islam and Sharia law did not take over and impose it’s barbaric ideology on it’s host nation? Once Muslims reach 15 to 20% of the demographics of the population, “conflict” begins. They start off by demanding special rights and privileges, and then new laws to protect their religion from criticism. Once they reach 25 to 30%, then riots and physical attacks occur on the indigenous population. At 50 % they start to take over the country, and persecute those from other religions, and eventually you get civil genocide and complete domination. Is that what you want for Britain? Really?

          • King Kibbutz

            Is that all that you have to say on the matter? You and your 9 ‘mates’?

            • Mary Ann

              It’s such a silly comment it’s not really worth the effort.

        • Miss Floribunda Rose

          Muslim women collude in their own oppression. They do not in fact regard the way they are treated as oppression. Their religion is far more important to them than their gender. I feel no sympathy for them. They deserve everything they get.

          • Mary Ann

            You honestly think they are going to tell you if they do feel repressed, of course there are some who wear them with pride, they are also the sort who will brag to the press.

            http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-27373368

          • Cobbett

            Women are the biggest supporters of the Status Quo….whether it’s deranged liberalism…or Islam(who do you think carries out FGM?)

            Religion doesn’t come into it.

        • Mary Ann

          What a stupid idea.

          • cartimandua

            You have not thought about it at all have you? “Covering” women self identify as objects and possessions of a man, but also as “good ” women which means all normally dressed healthy women are “bad ” women.
            Which is exactly how those hordes of Muslim men saw it when they attacked and abused western women.
            Its the inevitable result of Islamic gender apartheid which is after all herding and agrarian.

            • Mary Ann

              What, these same men who attack women wearing hijabs in Egypt.

              • cartimandua

                The fact that it doesn’t work to keep women safe doesn’t negate what I said.
                Women who “cover” are not fully present in public space and that enables male violence.
                Gender apartheid is toxic. It makes failed states from which now so many are fleeing.
                Faith is not a problem but religiosity is. Faith is not a piece of cloth on ones head.

                • Mary Ann

                  I dislike the veil as much as anybody, I see it as a repression of women, but I don’t agree with banning it either, that makes us as bad, men do not have the right to tell women what to wear, I dislike religion as well, it doesn’t improve rational thinking. We had gender apartheid in the near past, when I was a teenager it wasn’t considered proper for women to go into a pub on their own, and British women still get blamed for being raped by some men if they go out in revealing clothing.

                • JabbaPapa

                  I dislike religion as well, it doesn’t improve rational thinking

                  It”s true that your blind hatred of religion impairs your rationality.

                • vieuxceps2

                  No.lt enables rationality.

                • JabbaPapa

                  Blind hatred “enables” rationality ????

                • vieuxceps2

                  “Blind hatred of religion” enables rationality. Blind love of religion impairs rationality.

                • JabbaPapa

                  Then you, sir, are a bigot, a zealot, and a double-standard fool.

                • vieuxceps2

                  How rude of you Jabba. Go to confession , you sinner.

                • JabbaPapa

                  What, for denouncing blind hatred, and expressing my negative appreciation of those who actively support it ?

                • vieuxceps2

                  No,you dozy prat. Can’t you read? “Blind hatred of religion” and “blind love of religion” .The former lets you think, the latter prevents you from thinking. Rude, stupid and illiterate. Ask for forgiveness,immediately, lest your soul burn in eternal fire…..

                • vieuxceps2

                  Poor Jabba,cannot read, cannot understand.Blind hatred of religion and blind love of religion , the former permits thought .the latter prevents it. What part of those words don’t you understand? D not answer me with a string of insults as before since that simply proves my point. Why not soothe yourself by confessing in your church? No good blaming me for reality, I didn’t create it.But i bet you know someone who did, eh?

                • JabbaPapa

                  Blind hatred of —fill-in-the-gap— is by definition stupid, irrational, prejudiced, and bigoted ; your attempt to justify your own blind hatred of this or that is quite blatantly foolish.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Yea, hold his hand. Blind meets the blind, etc.

                • colchar

                  Banning those disgusting shrouds is not a case of men telling women what to wear, it is a case of banning articles of oppression. Any woman who argues otherwise has her head firmly planted up her posterior.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Totalitarian restrictions on clothing, a case of using totalitarian to ban certain people from public spaces, as you hate on many women who are simply not your kind of totalitarian.

                • jeffersonian

                  …and you’re the totalitarian’s grubby little helper. Yak.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  No, I am not helping you, Mr. Yak.

                  But thanks for that.

                • jeffersonian

                  Please don’t thank me, I wish you the very worst.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Well of course, I’m Jewish, your #1 enemy.

                • jeffersonian

                  if you’re Jewish, I’m superman.

                  And I have the most profound respect for the Jewish people, and their Israeli homeland.

                  Unlike you.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you claim to be superman.
                  Very odd of you.

                  I’m Jewish, get over yourself and your blind hate.

                • jeffersonian

                  How do you feel about Israel – and its right to exist?

                  No?

                  Didn’t think so you fraud.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  No you don’t think do you? At all. You just hate.

                  I’m a Labor Zionist, and support the two-state solution.

                  The fraud is yours, Jewhater.

                • jeffersonian

                  You wouldn’t know the meaning of the word ‘Zionist’ if your life depended on it.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you demand, as you threaten me, that I can’t know what I know because of your magical Jewhate and it’s ability to mindwipe across the internet. Hmm!

                • jeffersonian

                  Tin-foil hat alert.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Third identical post from you warning people about your…

                • itbeso

                  I’m for banning it until the age of 18.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah, so raising kids in a state institution until 18…

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Yes yes, far too mild for a poisoner like you, as you try and utterly fail states, going after any theist…demanding “acceptable” wear, etc.

                • jeffersonian

                  Time for you to raise your backside and ‘submit’ to M*cca, no? Fifth time for today?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  I don’t share your views, of course, as try and force me into your practices.

                • jeffersonian

                  Oops. Over the edge are we? (this is quite amusing)

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  No, that’s just clearly your plan for me for being Jewish.

                  Like your ideological predecessors Mr. “Amusing” hate ranter.

                • jeffersonian

                  While on the subject: how do you feel about Israel and its right to exist as the homeland of the Jewish people?

                  No? interesting…..

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you find your self-delusion “interesting”.

                  I’m, myself, a Labor Zionist and support Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people. But you don’t care about that, you’ve already decided…despite a prior answer…

                • jeffersonian

                  ‘Labor’? Ah, you’re an American lefty!

                  Quite the worst kind.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  No, the spell check on this PC is just set to American English.
                  But hey, mere facts.

                  Don’t let that stop your hate, as you whine on.

                • jeffersonian

                  Tin-foil hat alert!

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Yes, thanks for warning people about yours.

            • Leon Wolfeson

              The one whining about apartheid here is you, and your thought crime based beliefs. As you care only about certain crimes…

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Ah, condemning people based on clothing.

          So, as you clearly stand with Brevik…

          • jeffersonian

            Smoke and mirrors. Have you no shame?

            • Leon Wolfeson

              Ah, trying to talk about your far right can’t be allowed, I must be “ashamed” of not treating fanatics equally…why…

              • jeffersonian

                Is your (too) obviously Jewish name a predictable attempt at diversion? Might you be a follower of the paedophile (pbuh)?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you whine at a pseudonym in your Jewhate. Right.

                • jeffersonian

                  No you’re ‘Left’. And quite possibly Musl*m. Which is what’s wrong with you.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah, so you hate allowing other kinds of views, and go “UR MUSLIM, JEW”, as you spew PC bigotry.

                • jeffersonian

                  Hate? Why waste such effort on the likes of you? And don’t try to tarnish the Jews with your kind of world-view. Stand on your own (knees) as you usually do.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you deny many of your posts. Except you then immediately confirm them, screaming more Jewhate.

                  As you want to force me, in said hate, to my knees.

                • jeffersonian

                  Poor soul.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  And there you go again judging Jews..

                • jeffersonian

                  Not Jews no….but you knew that already didn’t you.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you scream a Jew is not a Jew, as you think you can control what people know.
                  In your Jewhate.

                • jeffersonian

                  Tin-foil hat alert.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Yes, you warned people about yours already.

      • Adam Carter

        How often are Muslim women allowed out?

        • Roger

          Who are they allowed to marry? After three generations assimilation with the locals is frowned upon and avoided. I was shocked to learn how few Muslim females in the UK actually socialise with the indigenous. If you look closely at, in particular families from Pakistan, it seems they are implanted in an alien land that they never wish to call there own.
          They travel home to find husbands for their daughters, they do not wish to assimilate.

          • Conway

            I don’t know why you’re shocked; the koran forbids all muslims to make friends with the kuffar.

            • Leon Wolfeson

              And your Holy Book and the infidels of other beliefs…well!

              • jeffersonian

                ..which is *your* holy book I wonder?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  That’d be the Tanach.

                  But don’t let facts stop your blind hate.

                • jeffersonian

                  Never ‘blind’. And you don’t deserve ‘hate’.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah, so you claim your blind hate isn’t really blind hate really, making excuses.

                  As you whine Jews like me don’t deserve…right.

                • jeffersonian

                  As I said before, if you’re Jewish, I’m Superman (which of course I’m not – and it pains me to have to spell it out, but clarity above all).

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah, “UR NO JEW, JEW”.

                  Blind Jewhate.

          • vieuxceps2

            Hush, Mary Anne might hear you and cry….

          • Leon Wolfeson

            So you have no idea about the statistics, right.

            • jeffersonian

              …just like you have no clue about ethics.

              • Leon Wolfeson

                Ah, you think you can mindwipe me across the internet.

                • jeffersonian

                  I’d rather not ‘wipe’ or otherwise come into contact with you at all if possible.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Well of course not, like Daesh you believe, clearly, in separating peoples…

                • jeffersonian

                  ISIL are but one example of the scum of the earth. Their apologists are only a fraction better. (pay attention, that’s about you)

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Of course you demand I share your views, Mr. Apologist.

                  I don’t. It’s you, not me.
                  I do not support Daesh’s views for separation of peoples.

            • Roger

              Idea about which statistics?

              • Leon Wolfeson

                So you didn’t even read the post…

          • itbeso

            “They travel home to find husbands for their daughters,”
            The sole reason why since 2005 this country has had a forced marriage unit in place to rescue girls from forced marriage (and the odd boy).

        • MathMan

          Once, to deploy their bomb vest.

        • Dr. Heath

          Depends on the owner. As with dogs who want walkies but sometimes find themselves disappointed.

      • Desperate Dan’s Porridge

        More self-up voted trolling gibberish.

        • flipkipper

          Yeah, that’s right jim. What else are the voices in your head telling you?

          • Desperate Dan’s Porridge

            You are Gibberish spouting troll laddie.

            • flipkipper

              Is that what the voices in your head are telling you, troll?

              • Desperate Dan’s Porridge

                I see all your sockpuppets are voting you up laddie. Do they speak gibberish as well lad? Try communicating in English.

                • flipkipper

                  DDP, we know you are here.
                  Keep posting the piffle like we didn’t already know how desperate you are init matey.

        • BritishPatriot

          Here, do yourself a favour if you’re sick of seeing the troll’s “comments”:

          https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/blog-killfile

          • JabbaPapa

            Is there anything like that for Chrome ?

      • polidorisghost

        “Since when is Merkel a left wing politician?”
        Since she exposed Germany to islamic invasion.

        • flipkipper

          Whatevva you say nickgriffinghost.
          Have a lie down.

          • polidorisghost

            You touchy today Abdul. Missed out on Cologne I suppose

            • flipkipper

              Blandings, is interweb access on the Broadmoor wards up and running again?

              • polidorisghost

                Now its no good getting b1tchy with me cos you missed out on a bit of in-out action

              • jeffersonian

                You should know. Out on temporary leave?

          • vieuxceps2

            I see you’got the old claque out again. Do you want us all to join in and up vote you? How do I join?

            • flipkipper

              will you stop crying you lefty?

              • jeffersonian

                Only if you stop whining you atrocious fifth columnist.

      • Dominic Stockford

        A muslim woman attacked a boy in this country, December 26th, stabbing him with a knife on a bus. Somehow kept out of the news until today…

        • BritishPatriot

          That incident looks to be more plain old fashioned London-style “crazy person” than “Muslim terror” to be honest.

          • Dominic Stockford

            Except that it wasn’t in London, and she was clearly wearing a hijab.

            • BritishPatriot

              Ahem. it was in London. Brixton, in fact. And while the bint involved was more than likelu a Muslim, that will probably turn out to be less relevant than the fact (as seems likely) that she was just plain nucking futs.

            • Mary Ann

              So wearing a scarf makes her sane so simple save the NHS a load of money.

              • Dominic Stockford

                That is an interesting idea that YOU posit. Maybe you should suggest it to the NHS.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Quite. But expecting people who are blindly ideological…

            • jeffersonian

              …and treasonous appeasers will do what they always do…

              • Leon Wolfeson

                You will? That’s nice.

                • jeffersonian

                  Awful really, that people like you can’t stop trying to undermine your country

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  I’m not trying to undermine Britain.
                  I’m not you, after all.

                  But of course, your hate on Jews like me…

                • jeffersonian

                  No, by your language you appear to be American, busy undermining your country.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you won’t even admit I’m British in your Jewhate, as you say Jews…

        • Mary Ann

          Would you have cared if a non Muslim woman had committed the offence, No, you wouldn’t have taken any notice unless the victim was someone you knew.

          • vieuxceps2

            I expect you’re quite worried about he poor muslim woman…..

          • Dominic Stockford

            Don’t you just love the way in which liberals tell you what you think, with such certainty. Not.

            Any such attack worries me, we are becoming a society which finds excuses for too much violence, physical and verbal.

            However, the reason FOR any attack does matter, especially in the current context of every muslim faith inspired attack being explained away as something else.

            • Leon Wolfeson

              Yes, well, Mr. Liberal…as you post only about one kind of attack. As you try and speak for others…

              • jeffersonian

                …and you might try to shut your bread-hole.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah yes, censorship, all you have.

                • jeffersonian

                  No censorhip (which really is the province of the state, so entirely inappropriate) – mine was just a personal (and deeply held) opinion.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you claim your attempt at censorship, which you made…you make excuses for it and whine on.

                  Your “opinion”, well, of course you deeply want to censor…

                • jeffersonian

                  Alrighty, back to bed.

          • mohdanga

            And if a Muslim had been attacked? You and your Muslim luvvies would have been at the barricades screaming for the perp to be tried for a “hate crime” and bellowing how “Islamophobic” the UK is.

            • Leon Wolfeson

              Your far right are going after Muslims. And Jews. And Sihks.

              But details, as you defend hate…

              • jeffersonian

                So sad, trying to conflate the law-abiding and productive Sikhs and Jews with the ‘other’ lot. Sorry, won’t fly…

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  I’m not trying to conflate people with your far right, Monocultist, as you try and hide the basic consequences of your calls.

                  I don’t want your drugs either.

                • jeffersonian

                  ..oh my…

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Yea, mere facts, don’t let them stop your hate.

          • itbeso

            Do you know of any British women going around stabbing strangers?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          And the stabbing round here? By a far right nut?
          Talked about that much?

          • jeffersonian

            The padded cell is awaiting you ‘sir’.

            • Leon Wolfeson

              Ah, wild accusations of mental illness for not agreeing with you.
              Good old far right, totalitarian, social darwinist spew there.

              As you defend far right criminals, of course.

          • Dominic Stockford

            Details please. Facts. Place, names, time, media report links.

            • Leon Wolfeson

              Oh, you don’t know about it, even. Telling.

              • Dominic Stockford

                Facts please. Details please. Time. Place. Names. Media report links.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  The things you’d already know if you were genuine? I rest my case.

                • Dominic Stockford

                  Come on. You say something has happened. Tell us all. Facts please. Details please. Time. Place. Names. Media report links.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  One, not relevant. You’re simply highlighting the fact you’re not genuine.

                  Two, I don’t provide multiple personalities information by policy.

                • Dominic Stockford

                  Clearly your alleged event never took place.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Ah, you deny a stabbing because the person was far right. You endorse, thus, crime selectively.

                  And hence have no moral standing to criticise any crime.

                • Dominic Stockford

                  Tell us the where, when, who and what of your alleged incident, or we can do nothing but think that it never happened.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Your personalities continue to deny far right crimes, right, as you try and deny the incident to the world. The blade is not the blade, you say, the blood not the blood. It’s not like someone you consider a real person was stabbed, eh?

                • Dominic Stockford

                  You’re seriously nuts.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  “UR NUTS”.

                  All you have, as you deny crimes of your far right.

      • Curnonsky

        San Bernardino, California: two Muslim attackers, one of whom was a woman.

      • JabbaPapa

        Since when are Muslim women assaulting people?

        Since some of them decided to join the cause of Jihad.

      • Cobbett

        What a worthless little sh*t you are.

      • Pendragon

        In effect she is a left-wing politician. Christian Democrat is only a label. Most of her policies are stolen from the Greens. All the main parties in Germany have shifted leftwards in the past 25 years (since reunification).

        • Charly Autumn

          Absolutely disgusting what is happening in my birth country! Interesting is that both the chancellor and the President grew up in the former Democratic German Republic!

      • logdon
      • jeffersonian

        How about the recent attempt by an ‘Asian’ woman with a head scarf to stab a young boy on a London bus (din dumma jävel)?

        http://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/01/uk-hijab-wearing-muslima-tries-to-stab-teen-on-bus

        Who’s an idiot now?

      • Dominic Stockford

        2 of those involved in Burkina Faso were women, as was at least one in Kenya.

      • itbeso
      • Russ Littler

        Listen to yourself. Your comment is the height of stupidity. Islam is the single biggest threat to the whole of western security and society today, and you flippantly bounce “strawman” arguments like that. You either live in cloud cuckoo land or you really have “Ostrich Syndrome” very bad.

        • flipkipper

          Matey, I am doing my bit by making Muslims watch MotD.
          Get over yourself.

    • Old Fox

      Quite. And all the left can come up with in reply to your indictment is the spitting fury of the career criminal who has been duly arrested and convicted.

    • Mary Ann

      And if you have a Muslim name your CV is twice as likely to be rejected, how many are living in ghettos because of racism, it works both ways.

      • JabbaPapa

        You VERY falsely assume that Islamist racism does not exist.

        Want to relocate to northern Iraq any time soon ?

      • vieuxceps2

        I understand that the Muslims have an employment rate of 50 percent. Maybe it’s’cos they’ve got funny names? Or perhaps they are scrounging fiddlers.?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          Where’s the evidence they’re like you? Hmm…

          • vieuxceps2

            There is no evidence that they’re like me. Now,can you say why that should be? Hmm……

            • Leon Wolfeson

              Right. So they’re not down with you there after all.

    • dlott

      But Cameron too is a leftie, why else does his Chancellor ruin landlords. Heir to Blair in his own words

      • Kingstonian

        Eh? Ruin landlords? What’s that got to do with anything?

    • colchar

      Oh they acknowledge a lack of integration, they just blame it all on the residents of whichever country the Muslims are claiming to be excluded from.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      You keep blaming the left for everything. As you want to force the poor into ghettos and cause violence, in your plans for totalitarian…

      No Muslim – or anyone from any other minority, or much anyone at all – would mix with you, I agree…

      • jeffersonian

        Are you a taqqyia practising barbarian or just a Marxist useful idiot?

        • Leon Wolfeson

          I’m not like you, Mr. Barbarian, as you fantasize about Marxists in your head…

          Can’t be that anyone else is allowed to not hate everyone not just like them, of course, on the basis of thought crime theory…but then again you’ve defended Brevik, so…

          • jeffersonian

            ‘I’m not like you…’

            I certainly hope not! I don’t excuse savages and barbarians.

            • Leon Wolfeson

              Yes, you’re a savage and barbarian yourself, after all, as you said.

              • jeffersonian

                Oh. Profound.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Yea, I can read. Cry harder.

                • jeffersonian

                  That would be tears thoroughly wasted. You seem to be beyond help or hope.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Well of course that’s how you see Jews. Cry harder.

                • jeffersonian

                  Jews are the most resilient and admirable of people.

                  I wonder however, what they have to do with you?

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  So you hate Jews for that.
                  As you wonder why a Jew is Jewish, in your Jewhate.

                • jeffersonian

                  LOL

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Those funny facts.

  • Shazza

    Anti Semitism is koranically inspired. The koran was written long before the state of Israel was created.
    Israel serves as a convenient scapegoat for an ancient hatred.

    Fortunately, not just French Jews but all Jews can take refuge in Israel. Where can the rest of us go?

    • flipkipper

      Is it? Wow!

      What about the Bilderberger conspiracy loons?

      Them are Muslims too init luv.

    • GnosticBrian

      The Koran was written by a semitic people – how could they be “anti-semitic”?

      • Adam Carter

        Words both change their meaning and have more than one meaning.
        You are using ‘semitic’ to mean the group of people who speak languages from the same language family, I guess. Unless you are using racial characteristics.
        But in modern communication ‘anti-semitic’ means anti-Jewish.
        If you doubt that language changes then look at the word ‘issue’.It used to mean something like ‘subject for consideration’,
        40 years ago we would discuss the issue of the superiority of Wales’ rugby team over others in Europe.
        Now, if my computer is giving me difficulty then I have an issue with it. It means ‘problem’.
        You are splitting hairs rather than addressing the real issue, and I have an issue with that.

        • GnosticBrian

          I get it, you are Humpty Dumpty – when you use a word “it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less.”

          You seem to be unaware that words in English can and do take many different meanings. For example “issue” can also mean “progeny”, “to come forth”, “to publish”…and more.

          “Semitic” refers to a group of people who speak semitic languages. “Anti-” is a prefix added to wods that can indicate oppostion to the word.

          • Adam Carter

            Well, well, you make my point for me.
            Although not entirely clearly because you use ‘issue’ both as a noun and a verb, which might cause some confusion to readers.
            And it’s not what *I* choose it to mean; it’s what the community of educated native speakers understand it to mean.
            Anti-semitic has the two meanings, and it is a fact that ‘anti-semitic’ means ‘anti-Jewish’ in ordinary use among educated native speakers of English.
            You are attempting to extend your technical meaning into ordinary use.
            Fortunately I am here to expose what you are trying to do.

            • GnosticBrian

              Can you tell me the rule of English grammar that precludes the same word being used as a noun or as a verb?

              You expose nothing but your own prejudice. One might almost believe that you consider yourself to be a member of a Sky Faery chosen elite that rises above us plebs, goyim, infidels…

              • Dalgliesh

                As a noun or as a verb… Depends on individual context. To ignore whether as a verb or as a noun is to imply that it the prose is not intended to have a clear meaning, to those who read it. Without a clear intend meaning, why publish those words?

                • GnosticBrian

                  So you agree that there is no rule of grammar prohibiting use of the same word as a noun or as a verb. I admit to being unsure as to how “anti-semitic” could be used as a verb.

              • Adam Carter

                No, of course I can’t tell you the rule of English grammar that precludes the same word being used as a noun or as a verb, because there is no such rule in English, and I haven’t claimed that there is. There is not even a need for slow and careful close textual analysis of my comment to see that I have made no such claim; the absence of such a claim is obvious even to a child of primary school age.
                What I did was expose you trying to confuse the issue. Now, to use an image rather than a literal statement, you were trying to muddy the waters.
                As for prejudice, I suggest you look it up. My opinions are formed after considering the issue, not before. After you have looked up ‘prejudice’ you’ll see why I say that. (Note to you, probably not necessary to other readers: ‘say’ in this context does not mean ‘speak’.)

                I note, and orther readers will note, that you have introduced the topic of my supposed belief in a Sky Faery. This has nothing at all to do with the discussion about language usage that we have been having.
                ‘One might almost believe’ that you are struggling to keep the discussuion on-topic since it isn’t going well for you. One piece of evidence for that, as I mentioned earlier, is your attempt to intoduce the idea that I made a claim about verbs and nouns that I did not, in fact, make.
                In fact I am an atheist.

                • JabbaPapa

                  ‘One might almost believe’ that you are struggling to keep the discussuion on-topic since it isn’t going well for you

                  He does that all the time.

                  When losing an argument, inject some random childish atheist cliché into the conversation. It’s some kind of rule that he has.

                • GnosticBrian

                  My comment was directed at your post: “Although not entirely clearly because you use ‘issue’ both as a noun and a verb, which might cause some confusion to readers”. I didn’t understand why you made that comment to me. So I observed that there is no rul;e preventing such. Clear?

                  I understood “semitic” to refer to those religions that profess to trace their origins back to Abraham. The “truth” of their origin is irrelevant to their claim. Judaism and Islam both claim to come from Abraham. Clear?

                  So anti-semitism extends to anti-Islam because Islam is a semitic religion. Clear?

          • polidorisghost

            Utterly disingenuous.

            • GnosticBrian

              Diddums, don’t like anyone to challenge your views…

              • polidorisghost

                You didn’t

                • GnosticBrian

                  So you just take the hump for no reason…

                • polidorisghost

                  What hump?

                • GnosticBrian

                  Forgive me, I thought that you understood colloquial English.

                  “Take the hump”: to get annoyed or upset with someone because you think they have done something bad to you – hence your assertion that I was “utterly disingenuous” simply because I explained my understanding of English. Why on earth should it upset you so?

                • polidorisghost

                  “Forgive me, I thought that you understood colloquial English.”
                  Oh I do.
                  I hadn’t taken the hump, hence “what hump?”
                  colloquial or wot

                • GnosticBrian

                  Evidently you don’t understand colloquial English. And I’m not going to waste my time educating you. Be so good as to go back under your bridge..

                • polidorisghost

                  My bridge?

                • GnosticBrian

                  Sorry, I didn’t take into account your lack of understanding of colloquial English – Trolls proverbially live under bridges.

                • JabbaPapa

                  Which river does your own belong to ?

                • GnosticBrian

                  Don’t have one.

                • JabbaPapa

                  Evidently you don’t understand colloquial English

                  My dad once wrote a textbook on the subject.

                  Anyone expecting his own colloquialisms to be universally understood is a fool.

                • GnosticBrian

                  Mine flew B24s – doesn’t mean that I can.

                • JabbaPapa

                  Well, you can hardly read any B24s that happen to be lying about the house with your dad’s name on the cover, no.

                  And ?

                • GnosticBrian

                  I’ve got his log book and pilot’s notes. And I do know who was my Dad.

                • JabbaPapa

                  Do they give you any insight into the subject of colloquial English ?

                • GnosticBrian

                  Do you class RAF slang and banter as “colloquial English”?

                • JabbaPapa

                  It would have been quicker and more accurate to type “no”.

                  You are one hopes, at least at some vague level, aware that understanding this or that colloquialism does not constitute comprehending colloquial English as a subject ?

                • GnosticBrian

                  You may have answered “No” but I aimed for a truthful response.

        • WFC

          I thought Semite mean son of Shem.

          Both the Jews and the Arabs claimed descent from Abraham. Abraham is considered to be the father of both the Jewish and Muslim religions.

          • logdon

            Mohammed co-opted Abraham to give him credibility in Mecca. He also latched on to Gabriel who was in his fevered dreams God’s emmisary charged with passing the message of the Koran.

            He was also supposed to fly to heaven from the ‘furthest mosque’ (Jerusalem) on a woman headed horse named Burak.

            That was the ‘Night Journey’. And that’s Islam’s claim to the Jewish Holy City.

            So there’s an unignorable pattern of plagiarisation here. All in the name of jihad conquest.

            • WFC

              Actually, the Arabs claimed descent from Abraham’s son, Ishmael, (by Sarah’s handmaid, Hagar) long before Islam. That lineage was mentioned in numerous pre-Islamic records – and both Jews and Christians accepted it.

              • logdon

                I can understand that but it still doesn’t remove the plagiarism angle.

                Polytheist Arabs, living cheek by jowl with Jews would have probably co-opted parts of the Jewish heritage, probably because of advantages bestowed.

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