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Full text of Hilary Benn’s extraordinary speech in favour of Syria airstrikes

2 December 2015

2 December 2015

Thank you very much Mr Speaker. Before I respond to the debate, I would like to say this directly to the Prime Minister: Although my right honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition and I will walk into different division lobbies tonight, I am proud to speak from the same Despatch Box as him. My right honourable friend is not a terrorist sympathiser, he is an honest, a principled, a decent and a good man and I think the Prime Minister must now regret what he said yesterday and his failure to do what he should have done today, which is simply to say ‘I am sorry’.

Now Mr Speaker, we have had an intense and impassioned debate and rightly so, given the clear and present threat from Daesh, the gravity of the decision that rests upon the shoulders and the conscience of every single one of us and the lives we hold in our hands tonight. And whatever we decision we reach, I hope we will treat one another with respect.

Now we have heard a number of outstanding speeches and sadly time will prevent me from acknowledging them all. But I would just like to single out the contributions both for and against the motion from my honourable and right honourable friends the members for Derby South, Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle, Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford, Barnsley Central, Wakefield, Wolverhampton South East, Brent North, Liverpool, West Derby, Wirral West, Stoke-on-Trent North, Birmingham Ladywood and the honourable members for Reigate, South West Wiltshire, Tonbridge and Malling, Chichester and Wells.

The question which confronts us in a very, very complex conflict is at its heart very simple. What should we do with others to confront this threat to our citizens, our nation, other nations and the people who suffer under the yoke, the cruel yoke, of Daesh? The carnage in Paris brought home to us the clear and present danger we face from them. It could have just as easily been London, or Glasgow, or Leeds or Birmingham and it could still be. And I believe that we have a moral and a practical duty to extend the action we are already taking in Iraq to Syria. And I am also clear, and I say this to my colleagues, that the conditions set out in the emergency resolution passed at the Labour party conference in September have been met.

We now have a clear and unambiguous UN Security Council Resolution 2249, paragraph 5 of which specifically calls on member states to take all necessary measures to redouble and co-ordinate their efforts to prevent and suppress terrorist acts committed specifically by Isil, and to eradicate the safe haven they have established over significant parts of Iraq and Syria.

So the United Nations is asking us to do something. It is asking us to do something now. It is asking us to act in Syria as well as in Iraq. And it was a Labour government that helped to found the United Nations at the end of the Second World War. And why did we do so? Because we wanted the nations of the world, working together, to deal with threats to international peace and security – and Daesh is unquestionably that.

So given that the United Nations has passed this resolution, given that such action would be lawful under Article 51 of the UN Charter – because every state has the right to defend itself – why would we not uphold the settled will of the United Nations, particularly when there is such support from within the region including from Iraq. We are part of a coalition of over 60 countries, standing together shoulder-to-shoulder to oppose their ideology and their brutality.

Now Mr Speaker, all of us understand the importance of bringing an end to the Syrian civil war and there is now some progress on a peace plan because of the Vienna talks. They are the best hope we have of achieving a cease-fire. That would bring an end to Assad’s bombing, leading to a transitional government and elections. And why is that vital? Both because it will help in the defeat of Daesh, and because it would enable millions of Syrians, who have been forced to flee, to do what every refugee dreams of: they just want to be able to go home.

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Now Mr Speaker, no-one in this debate doubts the deadly serious threat we face from Daesh and what they do, although sometimes we find it hard to live with the reality. We know that in June four gay men were thrown off the fifth storey of a building in the Syrian city of Deir ez-Zor. We know that in August the 82-year-old guardian of the antiquities of Palmyra, Professor Khaled al-Assad, was beheaded, and his headless body was hung from a traffic light. And we know that in recent weeks there has been the discovery of mass graves in Sinjar, one said to contain the bodies of older Yazidi women murdered by Daesh because they were judged too old to be sold for sex.

We know they have killed 30 British tourists in Tunisia, 224 Russian holidaymakers on a plane, 178 people in suicide bombings in Beirut, Ankara and Suruc. 130 people in Paris including those young people in the Bataclan whom Daesh – in trying to justify their bloody slaughter – called ‘apostates engaged in prostitution and vice’. If it had happened here, they could have been our children. And we know that they are plotting more attacks.

So the question for each of us – and for our national security – is this: given that we know what they are doing, can we really stand aside and refuse to act fully in our self-defence against those who are planning these attacks? Can we really leave to others the responsibility for defending our national security when it is our responsibility? And if we do not act, what message would that send about our solidarity with those countries that have suffered so much – including Iraq and our ally, France.

Now, France wants us to stand with them and President Hollande – the leader of our sister socialist party – has asked for our assistance and help. And as we are undertaking airstrikes in Iraq where Daesh’s hold has been reduced and we are already doing everything but engage in airstrikes in Syria – should we not play our full part?

It has been argued in the debate that airstrikes achieve nothing. Not so. Look at how Daesh’s forward march has been halted in Iraq. The House will remember that, 14 months ago, people were saying: ‘they are almost at the gates of Baghdad’. And that is why we voted to respond to the Iraqi government’s request for help to defeat them. Look at how their military capacity and their freedom of movement has been put under pressure. Ask the Kurds about Sinjar and Kobani. Now of course, air strikes alone will not defeat Daesh – but they make a difference. Because they are giving them a hard time – and it is making it more difficult for them to expand their territory.

Now, I share the concerns that have been expressed this evening about potential civilian casualties. However, unlike Daesh, none of us today act with the intent to harm civilians. Rather, we act to protect civilians from Daesh – who target innocent people.

Now on the subject of ground troops to defeat Daesh, there’s been much debate about the figure of 70,000 and the government must, I think, better explain that. But we know that most of them are currently engaged in fighting President Assad. But I’ll tell you what else we know, is whatever the number – 70,000, 40,000, 80,000 – the current size of the opposition forces mean the longer we leave taking action, the longer Daesh will have to decrease that number. And so to suggest, Mr Speaker, that airstrikes should not take place until the Syrian civil war has come to an end is, I think, to miss the urgency of the terrorist threat that Daesh poses to us and others, and I think misunderstands the nature and objectives of the extension to airstrikes that is being proposed. And of course we should take action. It is not a contradiction between the two to cut off Daesh’s support in the form of money and fighters and weapons, and of course we should give humanitarian aid, and of course we should offer shelter to more refugees including in this country and yes we should commit to play our full part in helping to rebuild Syria when the war is over.

Now I accept that there are legitimate arguments, and we have heard them in the debate, for not taking this form of action now. And it is also clear that many members have wrestled, and who knows, in the time that is left, may still be wrestling, with what the right thing to do is. But I say the threat is now, and there are rarely, if ever, perfect circumstances in which to deploy military forces. Now we heard very powerful testimony from the honorable member for Eddisbury earlier when she quoted that passage, and I just want to read what Karwan Jamal Tahir, the Kurdistan regional government high representative in London, said last week and I quote: ‘Last June, Daesh captured one third of Iraq over night and a few months later attacked the Kurdistan region. Swift airstrikes by Britain, America and France, and the actions of our own Peshmerga, saved us. We now have a border of 650 miles with Daesh. We’ve pushed them back, and recently captured Sinjar. Again, Western airstrikes were vital. But the old border between Iraq and Syria does not exist. Daesh fighters come and go across this fictional boundary.’ And that is the argument Mr Speaker, for treating the two countries as one, if we are serious about defeating Daesh.

Now Mr Speaker, I hope the house will bear with me if I direct my closing remarks to my Labour friends and colleagues on this side of the House. As a party we have always been defined by our internationalism. We believe we have a responsibility one to another. We never have – and we never should – walk by on the other side of the road.

And we are here faced by fascists. Not just their calculated brutality, but their belief that they are superior to every single one of us in this chamber tonight, and all of the people that we represent. They hold us in contempt. They hold our values in contempt. They hold our belief in tolerance and decency in contempt. They hold our democracy, the means by which we will make our decision tonight, in contempt. And what we know about fascists is that they need to be defeated. And it is why, as we have heard tonight, socialists and trade unionists and others joined the International Brigade in the 1930s to fight against Franco. It’s why this entire House stood up against Hitler and Mussolini. It is why our party has always stood up against the denial of human rights and for justice. And my view, Mr Speaker, is that we must now confront this evil. It is now time for us to do our bit in Syria. And that is why I ask my colleagues to vote for the motion tonight.

[CHEERS]


 

The House of Commons has voted to carry out airstrikes in Syria this evening by a majority of 174, but today’s debate has been overshadowed by an incredible speech from Hilary Benn. In this View from 22 podcast special, Fraser NelsonJames ForsythIsabel Hardman and Sebastian Payne discuss the implications of the Commons vote and what the shadow foreign secretary’s address means for the Labour party. Has Benn challenged Corbyn’s authority with his barnstorming speech that has won praise from all parties? How long will the glow last? Did Benn inspire the large number of Labour rebels?

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Show comments
  • Swift John

    Orchestrated BS in favor of murdering more innocent people, all for a quick ‘selfserving’ buck. Western governments are vile cesspools of scum.

  • Eques

    When a right wing politician makes a passionate, emotional speech it’s reported in the establishment media as “the best speech heard in Westminster for a generation/the mark of a future leader etc etc”. When a left wing politician makes a passionate speech it’s “preaching to the converted/using a comfort blanket (?)/tired old 70s Socialism/student politics”.

    When a right wing politician gives a sober, sensible speech It’s “statesmanlike/the voice of sanity/why can’t Corbyn be more like that?” When a left wing politician gives a sober, sensible speech (as Corbyn did on Syria) it’s “flat/lacklustre/lifeless/no fire in the belly”

    PS. How do you preach to the unconverted?

  • aristophanes

    Benn’s speech contains a flaky logic disguised by robust rhetoric. It succeeded
    because of his use of the word ‘fascist’. That galvanises the left.
    To overcome ISIS a better understanding of its aspirations and of ME history is needed.
    Such an understanding can lead to legitimate concern about the effectiveness of the strategy pursued by Cameron.

  • Barzini

    The guy was against bombing in October…….

    This is a farce, our country is a farce

    Nothing highlights the extent of our decline than this belief that Hilary bloody Benn is some kind of great statesman

    Lies, deceit, spin and corruption – we are wading so deep in it we can’t even see it anymore

  • Arthur Rusdell-Wilson

    Hilary Benn’s passionate speech must have swung a number of wavering Labour MPs to vote in the government lobby, and it was intended to do so. What I think was probably unintended is that it can also be read as code. Substitute the Corbynistas for Da’esh, and it still makes sense. They too have contempt for our way of life, they too have contempt for our democracy and the way decisions on these great occasions are taken in the House of Commons. Perhaps it was because Corbin realised this that he sat so grim faced with his arms folded.

  • marvin

    So sadly deluded and mis-informed! Syrian Troops are fighting against the Al Nusra Front and other Erdogan associated organisations. As published in Syrian Newspapers with photographs. It is Turkey who is allowing free passage to all violent protesters, thus Turkey is a safe haven for them! One of the leading and highly respected Turkish newspaper reporters was arrested for publishing a factual report on the extent of the arms that Turkey is supplying the rebels with. Erdogan has requested life imprisonment for him. Published in the Arabic newspapers. The atrocities in France?? Retaliation attacks?? Anders Breivik, the Norwegian terrorist killed more people in one attack than has occurred in the Hebdo and later attacks – where was that retaliation? Who stirred up the unrest in the Gulf States in the first place? The Westernised countries are said to fear Islamic terrorists? These Islamic terrorists kill more Muslims than they have killed Europeans! The interference in the Gulf states by the West has killed hundreds of thousands of people – the majority of whom were not involved in terrorism. – report by international journalist Muhammed Zoaib.
    The people in the gulf states have long been well aware that the US is attempting to separate and attack each of the Islamic countries. The US did not succeed in Iraq. What happens when all these countries combine and retaliate against the West, as they are beginning to now? How wise are these leaders who are intent on backing the US? Just why are the US invading the gulf states? Perhaps these countries have something that the US wants! I wonder what that could be?

  • Hippograd

    Look: they don’t just saw people’s heads off and turn women into sex-slaves. They’re fascists. Just like the BNP or UKIP! Now will you back the bombing, my fellow progressives?

    And we are here faced by fascists. Not just their calculated brutality, but their belief that they are superior to every single one of us in this chamber tonight, and all of the people that we represent. They hold us in contempt. They hold our values in contempt.

    How unlike decent moderate Muslims. Or decent moderate Hasidim. They don’t think they’re superior or that they have the One True Faith. You have to be a fascist to think that.

    And of course, Labour’s reaction to “fascism”, now or in the 1930s, is appeasement. Still, give Hilary “Winston” Benn his due: he was yelling about the vibrancy in Rotherham (and elsewhere) long before the slimy fascist Nick Griffin tried to exploit what was going on for his own slimy fascist ends.

  • JabbaTheCat

    Benn’s twaddle well eviscerated next door by Brendan O’Neill…
    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/12/hilary-benns-speech-was-just-a-shallow-historical-re-enactment/

  • Richard de Lacy

    What a load of cowardly drivel from Benn. He dislikes Islamo-fascists so much (because they share the British public’s contempt for our MPs) that he wants war, but he doesn’t want it enough to call for Cameron to patch up our differences with Syria and admit the UK was wrong to aid terrorists in the first place.

  • Lagos1

    I thought that at least one thing that was learn’t from Iraq was to ensure there was a good well thought out plan beyond the military intervention itself.

    What is it here?

  • fred finger

    ‘Labour never walks on the other side of the street’, not true, Attlee throughout the 1930’s was against rearmament.

  • Cyril Sneer

    I disagree with Corbyn on just about anything but he was right to echo his concerns on ‘mission creep’ and already William Hague has hinted at boots on the ground in Syria.

    This campaign is not ultimately about ISIS, the US is still set on regime change and even if ISIS is forced out of Syria, out from the oil fields, will this territory be returned to the Syrian government?

    The west still enables the other rebels and the west is not bombing Nusra etc, not to mention their total lack of concern for Turkeys role in enabling ISIS and of course the support from KSA, Qatar etc etc. They’re not serious about defeating ISIS but they’re happy to oblige if it means getting a foot in the door in Syria enabling further opportunities to continue their illegal policy of regime change.

    Also, the hysteria in Parliament yesterday was something to behold – ISIS would seem to be an almost bigger threat than the N@z!s, yet these emoting politicians have no qualms about letting Islamics into Europe on mass. It is quite ridiculous.

    Liberal virtue signalling hysteria has replaced intelligent policy. The mass delusion of our politicians and media is really quite frightening to witness. it would almost seem that many do think that bombing alone will make us safer here back in blighty… quite insane and frightening to see how supposed intelligent people are being easily led once again.

    Whatever happened to Libya?

  • Douglas Carter

    We seem to flip so easily between parallel universes here. Around twelve minutes in, Benn describes a powerful air armada which pushes ISIL back across the Iraqi desert, only seconds later to find the non-existent border can only be protected if the RAF sends an additional two Tornados or Typhoons. It’s either that, or literally the comprehensive defeat of the known world?

    In the past few years we’ve been hearing (over defence spending) that ‘we’re not an Empire any more, we’re in NATOEurope – our allies can do the work’. And now, it’s ‘We cannot stand by and let our Allies take responsibility for our security’. One or the other chaps – make your collective minds up?

    Is the George Osborne sat in the front Government row the same George Osborne who was quoted only four weeks ago elsewhere as wanting to discontinue annual pay rises for the Armed Forces? Enthusiastic Warhawk but just so long as the Campaign is carried out by Poundland?

    This is just one headline day. When the dust is settling and it’s no longer convenient for today’s Khaki Politicians to be wrapping themselves in the flag, let’s see the Spectator comment early, properly and loudly when the Armed Forces are once again a tedious nuisance and drain on the Chancellor’s political ambitions? As surely they will become, all too soon?

  • Clive

    Surely the most passionate intervention was that of Alex Salmond who almost exploded trying to make fake tears to score petty political points from Cameron.

  • P_Cochrane

    “It’s why this entire House stood up against Hitler and Mussolini. ”
    Did it?

    • Cyril Sneer

      Fair point and I don’t recall us importing any N@z!s the way we’ve been importing muslims the past two decades.

  • Disgruntledgoat

    Benn installed as Tele’s new favourite in 3, 2…

  • trobrianders

    100 speeches and only one MP mentioned Sunnis at all! A few mentioned Russia but nothing on what it would mean for the UK. These politicians are so skilled they can “debate” for 12 hours without saying anything meaningful.

  • Hegelman

    This ballyhoo adulation of Hilary Benn’s speech – which
    had the right practical proposal, ISIL need to be reduced to atoms by
    any means including bombing – is a proof of how intellectual standards
    have fallen.

    Truly, in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king !

    Benn’s speech had no literary sparkle, not one brilliant line. All it
    did was set out the sixth form theory that ISIL is nasty and therefore
    “fascist”. Anything nasty is fascist, and so ISIL must be. Such is the
    moronic reasoning, emanating suburban vulgarity and miserable ignorance.

    Fascism is not a word that should be thrown around such a puerile fashion. It
    is not the same as religious extremism which has been there since
    religion began. Fascism is a phenomenon that arose in Europe in the
    twentieth century. It has a specific political and social and economic
    meaning.

    ISIL are deadly poison but they are not comparable to Hitler, who
    came damned close to conquering Europe and could with luck have taken
    the world.

    Benn meant well and I back him against that clown Corbyn but he would not get a
    passing grade at O Level from me.

    • Clive

      Fascism arose in Rome, certainly at the time of Julius Caesar but arguably it amounted to their system of government. It was about jingoism but above all political power by the use of brute force. Beat up your opponents.

      Mussolini was trying to revive the Roman empire which was why he adapted fascism to his purpose. The word derives from ‘fasces’ – a bundle of sticks with an ax in the middle that was carried by the lictors – the guards – of Roman officials. It symbolised punishment and ultimately death at their hands – their magisterium, mastery, through force.

    • fundamentallyflawed

      Facist, Racist – but nothing to do with Islam….

  • joeblow55

    What a great speech. The victory of daesh is a victory for quintessential evil and our own destruction. See this speech in stark contrast to obama’s vascillating, puerile and completely inadequate response to daesh. When we hear hilary benn here in the states, we look with trepidation and shame at the weak leadership of barack hussein obama and his colossal arrogance.

    • Neil Moffatt

      But you did not read the words – you were caught up on the drama of a superlative delivery. An awesome delivery. But one that never mentioned bombing. It could have been a promotion for either for or against until he said for. Those arguing against ALSO want to defeat Daesh. Just in a more intelligent manner, asphyxiating them of money and arms. But to spend millions that a country in austerity does not have to spare in blasting the country they currently happen to have spread to is too simplistic I feel.

  • http://www.workinprogress.com Nicetime

    I sat watching the indescribable pomposity and sanctimoniousness of Cameron’s and Corbyn’s speeches and the associated interventions and just despaired. Cameron, as usual, stuck his foot in
    his mouth and turned victory into defeat as a string of insufferable buffoons called him out for his ‘terrorist sympathiser’ comments. He may as well have started out by withdrawing it. It was indefensible. Those opposing the motion clearly don’t understand what’s going on, or are
    indeed, insufferable, pompous buffoons, but they are clearly not ‘terrorist sympathisers’. It’s a reminder of how clumsy Cameron is when trying to feign passion. As far as the meat of the issue goes, we are (rightly) bombing ISIS in Iraq. They don’t recognise the border between Iraq and Syria, they are trying to carve a separate barbarian state out of territory currently occupied by both. They are waging a campaign of atrocities against civilians and they have assets in Syrian territory.
    It should therefore not require 600 odd MPs to spend 10 hours pontificating and virtue signalling over whether we should make a nominal contribution to a campaign by our long time allies, that is
    already underway against a force that rivals the Imperial Japanese Army for barbarism. Especially when we are already attacking them across a border that they don’t recognise.

    Yes, there are issues with Turkey and Saudi that are long overdue and that have to be dealt with, and yes, we need to engage in some realpolitik with Putin, but Benn’s speech was merely the exasperated howl of a man with a modicum of common sense discussing matters of life and death with a room full of vainglorious windbags.

  • http://peter-dow.blogspot.co.uk/ Peter Dow

    The International Brigade approves this great anti-fascist speech from Mr Hilary Benn MP!

    “NO PASARAN!”

    Las Palabras De Amor – Anti-Fascist music video

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZl3UXjw9xk

  • Debbie Manley

    Great speech – hardly. Disgraceful more like. This decision is disgraceful. In hindsight, people will look back (if there’s anyone to look back – as this could kick off WW3) and say, ‘what were they thinking!!!!’ Wait for the flood of ever more terrorists to emerge and wreak death and destruction around the world, while innocent people are murdered in the name of democracy. They should all be ashamed of themselves.

    • Whyshouldihavetoregister

      I’m sure you’ll be the last one to be raped and buried alive, so well done, you.

  • GavinSealey

    After the obligatory courtesies Hilary Benn presents eight arguments for military action in Syria:

    1. “We now have a clear and unambiguous UN Security Council Resolution 2249, paragraph 5 of which specifically calls on member states to take all necessary measures …”

    This is dishonest UNSCR 2249: “Calls upon Member States that have the capacity to do so to take all necessary measures, in compliance with international law, in particular with the United Nations Charter, as well as international human rights, refugee and humanitarian law, on the territory under the control of ISIL also known as Da’esh, in Syria and Iraq, to redouble and coordinate their efforts to prevent and suppress terrorist acts committed specifically by ISIL also known as Da’esh as well as ANF, and all other individuals, groups, undertakings, and entities associated with Al-Qaida, and other terrorist groups, as designated by the United Nations Security Council, and as may further be agreed by the International Syria Support Group (ISSG) and endorsed by the UN Security Council, pursuant to the statement of the International Syria Support Group (ISSG) of 14 November, and to eradicate the safe haven they have established over significant parts of Iraq and Syria;”

    Ignoring Syrian sovreignty and acting without the consent or invitation of the Syrian government makes the status of UK intervention at best problematic under international law.

    2. “All of us understand the importance of bringing and end to the Syrian civil war and there is now some progress on a peace plan because of the Vienna talks. They are the best hope we have of achieving a cease-fire. Now that would bring an end to Assad’s bombing, will help in the defeat of Daesh, and because it would enable million of Syrians, who have been forced to flee, to do what every refugee dreams of: they just want to be able to go home.”

    While agreeing that a cease fire between warring Syrians would be a good thing Benn fails to acknowledge that the Syrian government is fighting a number of terrorist groups, many of whose members are mercenaries and takfiri ‘jihadists’ from foreign countries.

    3. “Now Mr Speaker, no-one in this debate doubts the deadly serious threat we face from Daesh and what they do …”

    After outlining the horrors of Daesh including the attacks in Tunisia, Beruit, Ankara and Paris, Benn says that we cannot ‘refuse to act fully’ against those who are planning thsese attacks. Now I agree with this but I do not know that the Paris attacks were planned by individuals based in Raqqa, Syria. The terrorists who carried out the attacks were citizens of Europe. It is clear to me, given the support Daesh has received from multiple international sources, that there is a multi-national network behind Daesh and it is likely that the Paris attacks were planned and equipped from outside Syria. Acting fully and effectively against the terror network and the faux state that it sponsors means identifying and dismantling that network and taking down Daesh in the way that is most supportive of the restoration of Syria as a fully functioning state.

    4. “Now, France wants us to stand with them and president Holland – the leader of our sister socialist party – has asked for our assistance and help. And as we are undertaking airstrikes in Iraq where Daersh’s hold has been reduced and undertaking everything but engage in airstrikes in Syria should we not play our full part?”

    We are allied with the Iraqi government but not with the Syrian government in fact our allies have been trying to overthrow the Syrian government and the Syrian government have every reason to be mistrustful of their motives. Here we must remember the admissions of US generals Clarke and Flynn and the admission of Vice President Biden that the US and her allies facilitated the establishment of Daesh in Syria and supported other armed anti-government forces.

    5. “It has been argued in the debate that airstrikes achieve nothing. Not so. Look at how Daesh’s forward march has been halted in Iraq..”

    The issue for me is not the effectiveness of airstrikes in themselves but their effectiveness and appropriateness within specific contexts.

    6. “Now, I share the concerns that have been expressed this evening about potential civilian casualties. However, unlike Daesh, none of us today act with the intent to harm civilians. Rather, we act to protect civilians from Daesh – who target innocent people.”

    I presume that Benn would say that when he voted for bombing and invading Iraq in 2003 he did not intend to harm civilians and yet tens of thousands died as a direct result of military action and hundreds of thousands died, and are still dying, as an indirect consequence, and Daesh arose, in part, out of the frustrations and anger of Iraqi Sunnis with a new regime perceived to be following a Shia agenda.

    7. “Now on the subject of ground troops to defeat Daesh, there’s been much debate about the figure of 70,000 and the government must, I think, better explain that. But we know that most of them are currently engaged in fighting President Assad. But I’ll tell you what else we know, is whatever the number – 70,000, 40,000, 80,000 – the current size of the opposition forces mean the longer we leave taking action the longer Daesh will have to decrease that number”

    Benn talks about the notional 70,000 ‘ground troops’ that Cameron seems to depend on to defeat Daesh. He admits that most of them are engaged in fighting the Syrian government – I will not agree to use Benn’s terminology and say that they are fighting President Assad, more than 90,000 members of pro-government forces, mostly members of the Syrian Arab Army, have died defending their country and compatriots against Daesh and other terrorist groups. We should neither support nor expect support from the people who are fighting Syria’s legitimate government though we should support, as Russia does, groups prepared to accept a cease fire with the SAA and to work with the SAA to defeat Daesh and then take part in free and democratic elections.

    8. “The old border between Iraq and Syria does not exist. Daesh fighters come and go across this fictional boundary. And that is the argument Mr Speaker, for treating the two countries as one if we are serious about defeating Daesh.”

    Benn says “the old border between Iraq and Syria does not exist .. that is the argument Mr Speaker, for treating the two countries as one.” I find this dangerous. Benn is doing what Daesh is doing, attempting to disappear Syria as a country with territorial integrity.

    I have heard Benn’s speech described as ‘electrifying’. I do not find it electrifying, I do, however, find it shocking in its dishonesty.

    • petermannpictures

      Two weeks ago Hilary Benn said “…even more important that we bring the Syrian civil war to
      an end before considering strikes on Isis. Why? Because the vacuum in which Isil/Daesh [Islamic State] in Syria thrives is a consequence of that civil war ”.

      We are constantly told about the high level of terrorist threat we face from Isil/Daesh so it is strange to me that a serious politician would change their mind on such an important issue as a result of one of the supposedly numerous terrorist plots being successful.

      To me the most interesting thing about Benn’s speech is the subtext. ‘Jeremy Corbyn is honest, a principled, a decent and a good man’ i.e. not fit to run the country. What you need is a leader who has no principles and will gleefully accept the gift of the murder of 130 people as a justification for attacking… Oil Fields! (Really!!! the first target)

      Hilary Benn made a speech that was good in the way that Tom Hanks performance as Forrest Gump was good. Its not remotely serious but it was well delivered, if you are not thinking very hard it had a sort of well structured emotional pull and if you are tired at the end of the day/a long day sitting in the house of commons you probably don’t want to engage with any ideas more complicated than life is like a box of chocolates/they are evil we are good.

      But sadly the result (partly ?) of his speech is that we have entered a war where already Turkey (a NATO ally) has shot down a Russian plane, a war that Russia clearly entered only in order to have justification for bombing Assad’s enemies (who are our allies). This is not the simple world of good and evil Benn dreams of. That Benn’s ‘Brilliant’ speech only mentioned Russia in the context of Russian civilians also being killed by Isil/Daesh, and that it could still be called brilliant by supposedly serious political commentators is the most depressing indictment of our country I have heard in a long time.

  • The_Missing_Think

    “They hold us in contempt. They hold our values in contempt. They hold our belief in tolerance and decency in contempt… And what we know about fascists is that they need to be defeated.”
    _____

    With 636,000 immigrants pouring in per year, the clash between fine words and real life facts, could’t be more of a disturbing contrast. This is the danger of mentally compartmentalizing political subjects.

    I doubt the English will ever elect people that can match their fine words with synchronized actions, because they themselves are quite satisfied with this calibre of politics, hence the composition of the 650.

  • kitten

    The right wing press and some right wing posters are raving about Hillary Benns speech, not a great accolade for a supposedly left wing party MP; maybe it’s time he took his warmongering self out of the closet.

    • Aayush Dhuria

      Conform to party political line or gtfo? Not the most tolerant bunch, are ya.

      • kitten

        Ludicrous analogy. You wouldn’t tolerate a supporter of the BNP if you support Tories or a Green party supporter in Ukip.

        Try thinking before you reply.

        • Aayush Dhuria

          He’s supporting airstrikes based on a cogent, nuanced argument, not supporting the Tories on baseless tribalism. And I’m not from UK so I don’t really support anyone.

          If you have a problem with it, make an argument instead of name-calling and “how dare you make a stand”.

          Btw, that’s not an analogy.

        • Desperate Dan’s Porridge

          It is not an analogy so it cannot be ludicrous.

    • mightymark

      Except that it was pitched precisely to appeal to a “supposedly left wing party”. Sadly Labour in this respect – like most of the so called left – is indeed only “supposedly left wing” having been seduced by moral relativism, Islamism and an ugly and irrational conspiratorialism. Hence its failure to spot the fascism implicit in ISIS as described by Benn .

      • Leon Wolfeson

        Yes, of course you think you’ve seduced Labour to your views.

        • mightymark

          Dear boy, my views don’t really matter. Benn’s I suspect, increasingly will do.

          • Leon Wolfeson

            Oh, so you think that your nasty views mustn’t be discussed, child-hater.

            As you contradict yourself, given your rabid hatred of allowing other views to be heard. Standard (i.e. all) important for you to try and suppress it as a view not yours, of course…

            But hey, keep backing Islamists.

            • mightymark

              I think you must be working overtime on some kind of buzz phrase alternator. Nothing here seems to relate to anything I have said.

              • Ivan Ewan

                It’s OK, I found my Socialist Phrase Book. Let me see…

                “nasty” – see “Tory”.

                “nasty views” = views contrary to my own.

                “child-hater” = some of your ideas might in some eventuality mean that your enemies are likely to choose to endanger the lives of children; which of course was entirely your intention.

                “you contradict yourself” = my zany mischaracterisations of what you actually think, are contradictory – proving you to be insane.

                “rabid” = not so much a descriptor as a signal, meaning, ‘I hate you’.

                “hatred” = a dislike, usually invented, of something irrelevant; forbidden knowledge.

                “suppress” = verb form of the evil conservative equivalent of good old socialist “nuance” and “sensitivity”.

                “backing Islamists” = wishing to oppose or even fight them, thus causing good honest nice Muslims to become jihadists.

              • Leon Wolfeson

                So you claim your posts are unrelated to facts, I see, as you try and project your habits…

                • mightymark

                  Leon – I’m sure you know what you mean but you must try harder if you want others to do so.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  Your inability to understand basic English is only yours, one person’s, no matter how many usernames you use.

                • mightymark

                  My ability to understand or yours to use? Lets let the readers decide.

                • Leon Wolfeson

                  You are the one whining you can’t read English here.

    • EasyStreet

      Why do you associate warmongering with the right? The political spectrum becomes less and less meaningful as time goes by, but what little meaning it does retain relates only to economic and social policy. Military action sits somewhat apart from that, shown clearly enough by the Balkan interventions of the 1990s, advocated most strongly on both sides of the Atlantic by the compassionate centre-left. A proper conservative would be more inclined to shrug off suffering abroad as a fact of life, which is what John Major tried to do.

    • Jerry Quill

      did you notice who was sitting and listening behind Tony Benn in that video?

  • sun_wukong

    Rubbish; words designed to claim moral victory no matter what happens. Who is fooled? Too many, I fear. “…socialists and trade unionists and others joined the International Brigade in the 1930s to fight against Franco…” (with Stalin’s Communists. Is this better?)

  • misomiso

    Commented on Ms Hardman’s post but its worth repeating here:

    Just because a speech appeals to the media class and the political journalists, does not mean it cuts through the public, or to the Labour electorate.

    Hilary Benn may have made a good speech, but considering the New Labour Party we have, he may have thrown away any chance he had of being leader.

  • RavenRandom

    Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser has Benn forgotten? Is he been wilfully ignorant? Is he, even in denial, deliberately associating Corbyn’s name with terrorists?
    I am sick of Corbyn been called “principled” as if that alone makes him inherently virtuous. His principles are abhorrent. ISIS have principles, Mao, and Hitler had principles. Religious and political extremists throughout history had principles… but they were bad ones.

    • Lion 3

      no he is not and you know it – stop lying. the problem with cameron is that pig’s head. it gets in the way of his thinking sometimes. this will turn out to be another somalybia no doubt, then we shall remind hilary of his speech when he starts professing innocence about the consequences of bombing one’s way to peace!

      • RavenRandom

        Yes he is. He’s said so. Sorry about the inconvenient facts.

      • Ralph

        1939-1945 bombing, 1945 peace.

      • whs1954

        The IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah? These are just mothers’ tea circles, are they?

      • Damon

        “… the problem with cameron [sic] is that pig’s head. it gets in the way of his thinking… .”

        Yaaaaaa-wn.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      Well of course you’re sick of facts.

      As you note your priciples are bad, but you hold them anyway. And there’s a lovely list of people to compare you to there… or wait, nope, that’s a Godwin.

  • anyfool

    An excellent pitch for the leadership, every man and his dog knows Corbyn will go, Benn as a leftie will now be leading contender, he knows that he needs to retain the Blairite MPs vote, voting for action was the only way he could get them onside, the really vicious lefties will never vote for him, but the pragmatic/frightened ones will as the 2020 election looms, climb on board panicking about losing their seats, it will not do them any good as their new core vote from Pakistan and Bangladesh, will not be enough to cover for others that leave, not yet anyway.

    • Leon Wolfeson

      So you and your dog, who you think are all that matter…

      As you call normal leftists, “vicious”, of course, as you spit hate at Labour..as you obviously will try and terrorise people into not voting Labour…

    • Torgeir Salih Holgersen

      How is supporting the government and defying the majority within his own party on a critical issue a pitch for the leadership of the opposition? I believe this is wishful thinking on behalf of those who would like there to be no real opposition to government policies. It would be nice for the elite, and their media, but not be good for democracy.

  • davidshort10

    Armchair warrior, and skates so easily over the question of the dead civilians who will pile up.

    • Chudsmania

      Says the keyboard warrior .You are Corbyn and i claim my £5.

      • Lion 3

        why? simply because he refuses to send your men to a war that he feels is ill thought through?

      • davidshort10

        I have been in warzones and I have stood among the bodies of women and children and seen what modern arms do to the human body. Have you ever put yourself in harm’s way?

    • anyfool

      There are no Muslim civilians, all are part of Allah`s army, the Koran says they are, besides do you think soldiers are from another planet, they are civilians with a uniform.

      • Leon Wolfeson

        That’s right, you bravely oppose women and children.

        So, what’s your holy book? The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

      • davidshort10

        The definition of a soldier is the opposite to a civilian. The police are civilians in uniform not the military.

    • John welsh

      Better an armchair warrior than an armchair pacifist. What about the thousands of civilians raped, tortured and beheaded?

      • davidshort10

        Plenty of that happening all around the world. Do you want to make the RAF a hundred times bigger than it is and prosecute non-stop aerial war on a global basis?

        • Hugh Jeego

          Just because you can’t do everything, it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t do something.

      • Cyril Sneer

        We can bomb ISIS but we won’t bomb Nusra. Bombing alone won’t defeat ISIS it will just make us a bigger target for terror yet we refuse to help the Syrian Army.

        So what is it we hope to achieve?

    • teddylocsinjr

      In the words of the Crusaders, “Kill them all, God will sort out His own.” Awful but unavoidable. Everyone of ISIS must be killed. There is no convincing them and it is too late for that. They must pay for their crimes.

      • David Dickson

        What a horrific thing to repeat. This was said by Simon De Montfort at the sacking of Bezier during the Albigensian crusade against the Cathars in France. It refers to a question from one of his generals who asked how to identify the sheltering Cathars from the civilian population. Are you really advocating the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent men, women and children? Are you a psychopath or did you not understand the context of the quote?

  • Chris Hobson

    The only leftist i respect on Islam is Christopher Hitchens he enlightened me so much to theocratic threats to western civilization.

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