Coffee House

Regardless of the impact on our economy, Putin must be stopped

4 September 2014

2:01 PM

4 September 2014

2:01 PM

Walking around London this lunchtime with my family, my stomach tightened as it struck me that we may conceivably now be sliding towards a war with Russia. A war with consequences that could end up destroying everything we value. Not physical assets – they can be replaced – but those we love and hold dear.

The poverty of the West’s response to Putin’s aggression in Ukraine is breathtaking. Sanctions are announced, then re-announced, in the hope that perhaps the crisis on our borders may just resolve itself, with Putin deciding he has tweaked our tail enough. Such an outcome, however desirable, is pie in the sky.

Let’s be clear that Putin holds the West, its leaders and its values in contempt. We are weak; he is strong. We want to accommodate; he wants to dominate. He is surrounded by cronies and gangsters, a number of whom want to test NATO’s resolve by invading a Baltic state such as Latvia or Estonia. His testosterone-fuelled inner circle, having successfully stolen and murdered their way to fortunes, now want to replicate this success on a larger stage.

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And our response? A rapid reaction force of 4,000. Yes, four thousand troops to stave off potential invasion. Perhaps it would have been better if our leaders had said nothing instead of showing such a lack of resolve.

Meanwhile, appeasers and apologists take to our domestic airwaves to explain away Russia’s actions. They seem to have forgotten that history does not reflect kindly on those who sought to justify the actions of Nazi Germany in the run-up to 1939. Even worse is the odious propaganda of Russia Today, that dreadful organ of Putin’s Kremlin.

Regardless of the impact on our economy, Putin must be stopped and his country returned to the iciest of iceboxes. The assets of the oligarchs must be confiscated in London, New York, Paris and beyond.  NATO must stop talking in terms of thousands of troops and start talking about tens of thousands. The communiqué from this week’s summit must state in unambiguous terms that any Russian tank, muzzle or boot that so much as strays into a NATO country will be immediately liquidated.

The threat from Russia is why NATO came into being and why this mutual guarantee of defence remains so necessary. The first duty of each nation state that comprises NATO is to protect its citizens. This comes before any other matter of domestic interest, be it health, welfare or wealth creation. A failure to act now could have cataclysmic consequences. Dealing with Russia is the burden the West must once again learn to carry.

Charles Walker is the Conservative MP for Broxbourne

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Show comments
  • John the Fearless

    Comparing Putin to Hitler is just schoolboy rhetoric. History would also show that conventional wisdom is sometimes quite wrong, in this case our uncompromising political leaders failing to grasp this issue from the Russian perspective which is preventing us from reaching any serious peaceful settlement. What would be the point in bolstering Nato in Eastern Europe when we know we could never beat the Russians in Eastern Europe, attempts at deterrent won’t work.

  • LordJustin

    Mr Walker. I’m not sure who you are – just a name at the head of a column, really. But I am deeply impressed that, even in our increasingly meritocratic society, someone can still hold down a job by writing this sort of puerile, disingenuous, warmongering propaganda. Arise, Sir Charles, your knighthood awaits.

    • jeffersonian

      Whilst your ‘lordship’ for appeasment and for being an apologist for tyranny has already been awarded.

      • LordJustin

        Oh dear! it seems that MI6 are recruiting from technical colleges these days. At least the old school toff sycophants delivered their disdain of those who disagreed with them with wit rather than leftie sneers.

  • saffrin

    Putin isn’t the problem Obama is. Warmonger from day one. Why is it the USA keep electing complete nutters?

    • jeffersonian

      You need to seek psychiatric help post haste. Obama is the biggest girls blouse on the planet. War monger? He’s made us weaker than ever.

  • tolpuddle1

    Were are you going to get “tens of thousands” of young men stupid enough to die fighting Russia ?

    And what makes you think “that we’re sliding towards a war with Russia”; the only danger of doing so emanates from fake-Churchills like yourself, Mr Walker. However much you may dislike the fact, NATO has repeatedly ruled out military force regarding Ukraine.

    • jeffersonian

      “And what makes you think “that we’re sliding towards a war with Russia”

      Read the news lately?

      • tolpuddle1

        You mean the news that a NATO military exercise is just about to start in Ukraine ?

        Yes.

        No wonder that Pope Francis recently said that the Third World War was beginning to start under our very noses.

  • Spectre

    A nuclear warhead would seriously mess-up my ISA.

  • Christian

    At first I thought ‘another journalist talking drive’ but this us a Tory MP! It reads like a sixth former wrote it, so badly informed is the writer. From Enoch and Tony Benn to this, and there are worse examples still. God help us

  • Tim

    War. War. War. I”m getting tired of it and all the talk of it. Whoever this passed-over backbencher is, I hope he has no influence but my worry is, this is part of Blair like softening up exercise. i have no interest in Britain going to war with Russia. The history of Ukraine is complex – we blunder in there at our peril.

    It’s the same sort of war mongers who wanted us to bomb Assad last year to help the rebels and then this year, er, well the rebels aren’t really that nice are they? We’re being led by school boys ignorantly stroking the phalluses of missiles in the hope it makes them look mature. It doesn’t and I, for one, am sick of all this war talk.

    • jeffersonian

      “War. War. War.”

      Appeasement appeasement appeasement?

  • Baron

    An apology from Baron who’s just learnt that this chap Walker has suffered for years from OCD (see Wikipedia).

    Obsessive compulsive disorder is an anxiety disorder characterized by intrusive thoughts that produce uneasiness, apprehension, fear or worry (obsessions), repetitive behaviors aimed at reducing the associated anxiety (compulsions), or a combination of such obsessions and compulsions. Symptoms of the disorder include excessive washing or cleaning, repeated checking, extreme hoarding, preoccupation with sexual, violent or religious thoughts, relationship-related obsessions, aversion to particular numbers and nervous rituals such as opening and closing a door a certain number of times before entering or leaving a room. These symptoms result in loss of relationships with others, are time-consuming, and often cause severe emotional and financial distress. The acts of those who have OCD may appear paranoid and potentially psychotic.

    • Augustus

      Well, he’s obviously had quite a successful career and family life despite his impairment. Wikipedia says “People rely on compulsions as an escape from their obsessive thoughts.” It seems, in Charles Walker’s case, that he must have managed somehow to overcome those fixations which could otherwise have blighted that success. Good for him!

  • BornFree

    The majority of people in the East of Ukraine are ethnic Russians,
    over two thousands of them have been slaughtered and the west does not care. Let
    them vote and set them free, for them the sun rises in the east.

  • The Masked Marvel

    Let’s be clear that Putin holds the West, its leaders and its values in contempt.

    The rest of us hold its leaders in contempt as well, but for somewhat different reasons.

    The thing is, we don’t need to do military threats. NATO? Already pointless in this scenario. We can do much that will harm Putin without wasting blood or treasure.

    Freeze Putin’s assets, and those of his family. Freeze the assets of his oligarchs, and sanction their businesses where possible. Kick Russia off the UN Security Council, thus disarming him of the veto, an important geopolitical weapon. Kick Russia out of the G8. No half measures. If he turns off the gas, the US is now a net exporter. Ask Dave’s friend Barry to send some round. Putin will look bad to his own people, which is more important than what the rest of us say or think.

    If the mandarins can’t make the effort to ostracize Putin like they do Israel, the UN should be disbanded, as it would finally be revealed as a farce.

    • Denis_Cooper

      Interestingly Russia still seems to be a permanent member of the Security Council as the USSR, without the Charter itself having been amended.

      • The Masked Marvel

        The whole thing is a joke. Maybe if Putin expressed support for Israel they’d be moved to take action against him.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      The US couldn’t even come close to replacing Europe’s natural gas demand. Obama is busily destroying their use of coal, and thus their increased domestic gas production is being swallowed up by their own domestic market.

      The Europeans might as well get used to brother Vlad having his hand on the gas valve. The good news is, he’s got no reason to shut it off, assuming he gets paid (and the Ukrainian oligarchs weren’t paying him, which is the root of all this madness).

  • nhgnhg

    When will the Spectator show that picture of John McCain smiling like a cheshire cat with the leader of Isil in Libya? It says everything you need to know.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      Yes, it does. McCain is mentally deranged, and is thought to have suffered severe brain trauma in his past, which might explain his increasingly bizarre behavior over the years.

      By the way, the guy in that photograph with McCain is not just the “leader” of ISIL in Syria, he was the creator of it.

  • Evan Thomas

    “a war with consequences that could end up destroying everything we value. Not physical assets – they can be replaced – but those we love and hold dear.” There is no “Russian threat” to Britain and no reason to risk those we love and hold dear. These views are deeply alarming. I hope Mr Walker’s constituents take note and remove him from parliament at the next election.

    • MountainousIpswich

      Utter crap. Putin threatens the whole of Europe.

      • Jacques Strap

        Thanks to the EU

      • Evan Thomas

        No it is not “utter crap”. It is the truth. Britain has no vital interests in Ukraine. Russia is not our enemy.

        • MountainousIpswich

          We don’t need to have vital interests in Ukraine. It is a sovereign nation that has been invaded by an aggressive expansionist power. The last time the Russians did that they didn’t stop until they reached Berlin, and they only stopped then because there was a European and American combined army coming the other way.

          Pretty sure we have some vital interests east of the Channel Islands.

          • Evan Thomas

            Do you know the history of the Eastern Front in the Second World War? Do you know about the millions of captured Red Army soldiers starved to death in 1941? Do you know about the Siege of
            Leningrad and Stalingrad? Have you ever heard of “Bagration”? Do you know how the all the Russia’s fought against their genocidal foe. If not shut up.

          • Baron

            You may have missed a small but not an insignificant bit in your attempt to milk history as supporting evidence, MountainousIpswich. The last time the Russians had moved through Ukraine they were chasing the Nazis. If they didn’t, you would most likely be Deutsch sprechen now.

            • MountainousIpswich

              You are the one who has missed the small but not insignificant point. Who is Russia claiming is now in control of Ukraine (also being claimed by their numerous internet proxies) – Nazis supported by America and the West.

              Hmmm. Can you put two and two together?

  • Baron

    And another thing:

    Why hasn’t this dimwit mentioned the downing of the MH17? It would have fitted well into his narrative of the evil Russians. Surprisingly, the atrocity is totally forgotten, in just over a month, in the propaganda war against the Russian. Why?

  • Augustus

    The real enemy is the global Caliphate, not Putin, who the Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine will always protect.

  • Mr Starter

    If a defined area of eastern Ukraine was temporarily regarded as a separate country a Yes/No referendum on staying with Ukraine or a union with Russia could be held and nobody would need to die and nothing would need to be destroyed.The EU and NATO could go away and” play nice” and stop annoying the neighbours.

  • Baron

    If the war with Russia were to annihilate the brainless moron who penned this war mongering rant Baron’s all for it. How do we start?

    Hopefully, in the next year count, UKIP will bury this buffoon for good.

    • Evan Thomas

      It is important that the British people recognise dangerous utopian leftist ideologies such as neo conservatism that put our countries and families at risk for what they are. There could not be a clearer demonstration of the dangers of neo conservatism than Mr Walker’s article. We need to use the democratic process to remove neo conservatives from public office and I urge any of Mr Walker’s constituents who might read his article to do all they can to bring this about. Generally removing neo Conservatism from British public life will involve voting UKIP.

  • ManOfKent

    So according to Walker (the only parasite who confirmed he’s taking his unjustified 11% pay rise) we can wreck our fragile economy just to pander to EU Imperialism? He can go forth and multiply.

    Doesn’t he get it. This country has been ‘at war’ for 60 years (World War II, Cold War, Northern Ireland, War On Terror) virtually without a break. As a nation we are war weary. Most of us and our children have never really experienced this country in times of true peace when we were not being coerced by a government at war. We’ve had enough of jumped little Napoleans in Westminster playing their games of global domination.

    Just because these Neocon members of Parliament have to prove how big a person they are by wagging their meagre members about and sacrificing the quality of the British peoples lives and their future prosperity in doing so doesn’t mean to say we are going to go along with it. We’re not. We’re not going to piss our meagre resources down the drain because a bunch of morons in Westminster want to have a go at one of the world’s super powers

    And the Tories wonder why they are treated with such contempt? The sooner we rid ourselves of this putrid ridiculous divided, broken dysfunctional party the better!

    With bit of luck the voters of Broxbourne will get rid of this idiot!

    PS And puhlease does anyone think that waving around the 3rd Reich has any effect now? It really only proves how childish Walker is

    • Baron

      A hugely enjoyable rant, ManofKent, you should do it more often.

    • launcher

      Thank you, superb!

  • Mark B

    The past 100 years has taught me that, involving ourselves in the affairs of the European nations, has not only cost us much treasure but, the flower of our youth and an Empire much admired and envied. So much lost for nothing gained. Not even a modicum of common sense and decency.

    It was the EU and the US that started this. Both fomented the Maiden Square riots and the overthrow of the President (a horrid man), all so that the EU could have its Association Agreement and so, bind Ukraine to the West.

    But this is not about Ukraine is it ? It’s about Putin. They want him removed, just like Hussain and Gaddafi. Removed and replaced with someone more to their liking. if so, we are in for a torrid time. Putin will fight, and so must we.

  • david trant

    Well turning Europe into a nuclear wasteland, I should think all-in-all that’ll have a pretty detrimental effect on our economy.

  • Q46

    Central European powers invade Crimea… again… Russia mobilises to defend its territory.

    Russia ‘must be stopped’.

    No the EU must be stopped… and the Nation States of Europe liberated from this Neo-Reich.

  • Simon Denis

    I’m not sure Russian can be stopped – odious though it’s behaviour is. After all, where are the troops? The British Army is small and its recent record patchy. Meanwhile, the Americans have wearied of playing the world’s policemen. No other country looks particularly eager to join the fray. You speak blithely of the effect of a full blown conflict on our economy, but the bruised, ageing, demoralised societies of the west are incapable of enduring the sort of sacrifices your policy would involve. Many of them have been through enough, in all conscience – think of France; think of Spain. More profoundly, the old cultural unity and depth which enabled European nations to endure loss has been shattered by mass immigration and decades of semi-official self-hatred. With large and unassimilated Islamic populations in our midst, which bring with them the threat of terrorism as the sea brings fish, we are using an enormous amount of financial and intelligence muscle to prevent outrages from breaking out in our major cities. In such a circumstance, could we really take on Russia as well? Would they not willingly cooperate with the terrorist enemy now so abundantly “within”? You know, I have been arguing with several voices to be found on these threads that the Conservative party should still be supported, as the intentions of its politicians remain laudable; and yet to read this gung-ho, sabre rattling tosh, given utterance in defiance of the facts of life today – well, it shakes even my confidence.

  • dalai guevara

    Mayfair is Russia. Half of Berlin has been Russian for fifty years now. So is Larnaca, the Cote d’Azur, Ibiza Town and Rimini. Only a concerted effort from Europe will bring Putin to his senses.

    • Wessex Man

      Lovely jubbly!

    • the viceroy’s gin

      Sounds good, lad. You socialist nutters can go first. Just grab your rifle and head right on over.

  • extoryagent2

    Perspective lacking. Russia was our ally (Napoleon, WW1, WW2). Ukraine (est 1991) is a new state, the eastern part of which is home to an awful lot of Russians, or more precisely, ex-Russians, many of whom wish to be Russians once more.

    • Chris Morriss

      Yes, but I’m sure a lot of people in Ulster, wish to be part of the Republic. So what?

      • david trant

        In WW1 our head of state and theirs were related, so we were hardly en…of course Germany’s head of state and ours were related, and Russia and German…..and we couldn’t even get on then.

      • extoryagent2

        Our ally is what Russia was; you may not like it but that does not change the fact. Calling either me or my use of the word ally “disingenuous” does not make either me or it so.

        Britain subsidised Russia’s troops during the Napoleonic war.

        Russia was our ally.

    • Wessex Man

      Well they could always emigrate!

    • goatmince

      Russians by force. We are bored with you Neanderthals and your North Korean approach to creating facts. It does not resonate with the civilised people of Europe.

      (you are of course a plain pro-Putin troll gathering your comrades here, nice work.)

      • Baron

        Who are ‘we’, goatmince, you and your goat?

      • the viceroy’s gin

        You are of course a socialist nutter trolling this site with an army of sockpuppets.

  • In2minds

    Stop Putin? Stop buying the gas then!

    • dalai guevara

      Coal you mean to say but haven’t.

      • Chris Morriss

        That’s true in our case. In spite of the fact that we still have vast reserves of coal under our feet.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        That’s ok, you global warmingist nutters will soon stamp out the coal, and candles and matchsticks too, eventually.

  • Mynydd

    Why is it so difficult for our leaders to understand that the Ukraine is a failed state. Three times the elected government has been overthrown by mob rule. Yet Mr Cameron paints the present lot whiter than white, when they are just as bad as those who went before. There is even talk of Ukraine joining NATO, so that we can defend them against Russia, what a childish joke. Ukraine is not worth it, next year the government will be overthrown by the mob out on the streets.

    • Curnonsky

      You can save time by copy-pasting this post as often as necessary in the coming year – just remember to erase the word “Ukraine” and insert “Estonia”, “Latvia”, “Lithuania”, “Poland” and so on.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …sorta like you warmongers have been copy-pasting Libya, Syria, ISIS, Georgia, Ukraine and everywhere else you’ve been warring, lad?

        • Curnonsky

          You are now defending Isis, Assad and Putin from those ferocious warmongers Obama and Cameron? Fascinating.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            No, that’s merely your fantasy, lad.

            You warmongers provided an air force for the islamofascist murderers in Libya, and that’s worked out splendidly, as we see.

            You were desperate to repeat your splendid Libyan scenario in Syria, and once again provide the islamofasicst murderers with an air force and weapons and support, but sane people blocked you fanatics.

            Now, you zealots are off on something again, whether in Ukraine or somewhere else. It might be time for you types to go and have a mental check up.

          • LordJustin

            Interesting spin – if you’re not with us you’re against us. But nothing to do with the facts.

            Isis and Assad are just pawns in the cold war. And yes, Obama and Cameron – or at least the mandarins who pull their strings – are very much warmongering the same old anti-Russian rubbish they’ve been peddling since 1853.

            • Curnonsky

              These “mandarins” – would they be Freemasons, Zionists, Bilderburgers or Lizard-Men?

      • LordJustin

        Your post reminds me that I’m not reading enough historical fiction.

    • Dr. Heath

      I bet you’re such a fantastically successful crystal ball gazer that you know Ukraine is going to remain a failed state in perpetuity. Gosh. How clever are you?

      One could have penned exactly the same sort of patronising and heartless drivel about any number of the states that were liberated from their imprisonment inside the Warsaw Pact nearly twenty-five years ago. If Ukraine is “not worth it”, please explain why any portion of the European continent is worthy of defending. And tell us why it is that a large nation with tens of millions of citizens should be thrown under a bus while we ally ourselves with others and spend billions on armaments to back up these alliances. Because, perhaps, we have leaders who are abject cowards and who have looked at Ukraine’s friendly and, allegedly, fraternal neighbour, and have done what cowards routinely do and shat themselves in the face of an aggressive enemy?

      Putin, like that man in Germany whose name we’ve been prohibited by every species of asshole able to click on to a website from mentioning, has been saying things that people outside of his People’s Paradise need to listen to, or ignore at their peril. He’s said in 2013 to a Ukrainian audience that ‘We are one people’. He therefore must, like many of his less famous but impressively nastier supporters, think Ukrainians are naughty Russians [serfs?] who’ve managed to escape from their masters’ estates. More recently, Putin has said that Kazakhstan isn’t actually a country and, yes, that the main priority of all people in Kazakhstan, where the likelihood of meeting a Russian speaker is so great that, yes, the place probably is just another part of Russia, is to do what is in Russia’s interests. This, says Vlad the Vengeful, would be most likely to make citizens of Kazakhstan happy. I think that, on hearing this, Mr. Nazarbayev finally twigged. We need to do the same.

      Then there’s this quote, which reminds me of something Speer attributed to that German bloke in “Inside the Third Reich”….

      “Death is horrible, isn’t it? But no, it appears it may be beautiful if it serves the people: Death for one’s friends, one’s people or for the homeland, to use the modern word.”

      Thus spake Vlad the Avenger at the end of a recent television interview. Yikes. Is he bonkers? Surely, if such sentiments were voiced by a Western leader, people would be suggesting it’s time for a restraint jacket and an early retirement.

      We need to listen very carefully to this Russian bloke and we need to accept the fact that some of our enemies cannot be reasoned with, merely faced down. If they were all conducive to rational argument, we would never, ever need weapons. But that’s true only of make-believe worlds.

      • Scradje

        Well said sir.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        Sounds good, lad. So when are you going to saddle up and get yourself over there and join the fight?

      • LordJustin

        The truth of course, is that the majority of east European EU members are dependent failed states and will remain so in perpetuity. The only difference is that they are now ruled and bankrolled by imperial powers to their west, France and Germany, rather than Russia to their east, which ran out of money after spending too long fighting the war against terror in Afghanistan.

        The names and faces might change, and the country on top can vary from one decade to another, but history is the study of perpetual repetition. Forget that and you will end up believing your own propaganda.

    • LordJustin

      Because Ukraine is not the issue. Each battle in the cold war requires a cause celebre – preferably one far enough away to prevent us seeing through the BS before the action moves to next location.

      So, be clear. It’s not about Ukraine, still one of the largest and most politically unstable kleptocracies on the planet; nor is it about a few thousand Bedouin bandits in the middle east, or any other aspiring mafia dressed in the robes of protest while it plunders and murders its way to local domination.

      it is, and always has been, about keeping the Russians out of the med and preventing them buying oil to heat their homes, run their factories and power their armies. Lose sight of that, and you’ll end up like Mr Walker here, desperately seeking meaning in an increasingly confusing world.

  • Makroon

    Charles Walker is a clown, war-monger and idiot.
    We lived harmoniously for decades with Tsarist Russia, despite war crimes and abuses of “human rights” far, far greater than anything Putin has done, and reached an accommodation with the Soviet Union.
    The EU is an ever-growing, ever-expanding, monster, and apparently, NATO sees itself in competition with the EU, forever trying to meddle in more areas.
    Our priority is the “Islamic state”, not the Russian-Ukrainian border skirmish, where the two sides are equally unpleasant.

    • Denis_Cooper

      I don’t see NATO in competition with the EU, I see the EU and NATO and therefore the US bound together increasingly tightly in what could be called the “EU/NATO/US troika”.

      The EU needs NATO and the US because it has not yet been able to build anything like the necessary military capability under its own control to secure even its present territory let alone further additions to its “non-imperial empire”, while the US is content for the EU to supply the civil administration once newly acquired territories have been secured by NATO.

      It has always been that way, as can easily be checked; first a new territory is militarily secured by admission to NATO and then it can join the EU for its civil government; it has never been the other way round, and really it can never be unless and until the longstanding dream of the EU possessing and controlling its own federal armed forces, complete with nuclear weapons, becomes a reality.

      Which could take several more decades, according to the German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier in 2007:

      https://www.allianz.com/oneweb/cms/www.allianz.com/en/press/news/commitment/community/news_2007-01-15.html

      “In his closing remarks, Steinmeier noted there is much work to be done, conceding that visions for Europe are projects that will take up the next
      20 to 30 years and citing a future European army as an example.”

      • dado_trunking

        We have mentioned the future importance of Eurocorps many times.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …your army of sockpuppets mentioning another army, lad?

      • LordJustin

        The UK and US use the fantasy empire of the EU as a device to facilitate the encirclement of Russia by bankrolling and ruling the buffer states of Eastern Europe. The EU has no uniting language, culture or religion, and it is hardly a profit-making entity, so it has no reason to exist other than for short term protectionism and tactical advantage.

        The failing states of Eastern and Southern Europe depend on the EU for their standard of living. But the whole teetering house of cards will fall the day the wealthy banker states – we and the Germans – no longer see any benefit in remaining members.

        If I were living in eastern or southern Europe, I would wake every morning dreading the day that the West falls out with China. Because that will be the day NATO rebuilds bridges with Russia (a la 1940) and the EU leaves those whining, entitlement states to regress to the poverty to which their destiny determines they will return.

    • Chris Morriss

      Scarcely harmoniously. You forget the interminable skirmishes in the region of Afghanistan. All part of “the great game”.

      • LordJustin

        There are states; and there are buffer states; and they are all surrounded by seas. The game is to take and keep control of your own state and its natural resources, and then protect this from your neighbours by dominating the buffer states and seas that surround you. The same game is playing out daily in all the conflict zones of the world. Forget that lesson at your peril.

    • dado_trunking

      Who’s talking about war? If Putin’s punters feel the pinch all over Europe then so will he, soon thereafter.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …that’s not how you fascists work, lad. You make sure others feel the fascist pinch… never you and your buddies.

    • Andrew Smith

      Forgotten 1853?

      We only lived “harmoniously” with the Soviet Union because we allowed it to take over vast swathes of Eastern Europe. Aren’t the Baltic states allowed sovereignty?

      • ManOfKent

        So next are you going to take on the Chinese to free Tibet then?? Aren’t they allowed their sovereignty too? What about the Catalans? Should we break off relations with Spain?

        And for that matter what about the Russian Ukrainians who want separation from Ukraine. Are they not entitled to their own self determination and ‘sovereignty’?

        I assume you back the SNP’s demands for self-determination as well?

        • arnoldo87

          You are forgetting that the status quo holds, however unfair the historical reason for the “ownership” of a nation.
          Otherwise the IRA would be perfectly justified in operating in Northern Ireland to agitate for Ulster to become part of Ireland. Presumably you would support such activities?
          There could be a peaceful solution to the Ukrainian situation through diplomacy, whereby there is some sort of referendum for a specified section of Eastern Ukraine to vote if it wants to join Russia. If they did vote yes they would regret it in time and would want to re-join their (by then) wealthier West Ukrainian neighbours.

          • tolpuddle1

            You seem to believe that the West’s economy is in a secure and healthy state – it isn’t.

          • LordJustin

            Well, except that Ukraine’s wealth is all in the East, which is why the EU started this internecine conflict in the first place.

        • Andrew Smith

          We have allied ourselves with a number of soverign countries and have decided that we like this situation. If we Let Putin bite off one country, he will just carry on. The line has to be drawn and enforced somewhere.

          I wouldn’t support integrating Ukraine into NATO: it’s an unstable country with too many unresolved issues.

          The whole SNP / Catalan crap is just Argument ad absurdum and you know it.

        • Ordinaryman

          We could go on with this ad finitum e.g. what about the Cornish, the Yorkshire man, British Muslims, aren’t they entitled to “their own self determination and ‘sovereignty’? Ridiculous! A sovereign country with established and recognised borders has a right to protect its territorial integrity and the cultural norms of the indigenous majority. Whether or not we get involved in any of these external political problems is another matter. Regarding any concerns about our own national security, it is very much a case of ‘planning for the worst but hoping for the best’. This means having a ‘big gun’ but hoping you never have to use it.

      • tolpuddle1

        Would you prefer European war, followed by world war ?

        • Andrew Smith

          If we don’t stop him in Ukraine, the appetite will grow and he will start at the Nato countries. That’s why I would prefer containment to appeasement. He thinks the West ist weak and divided (not far off) and only understands the language of force.

      • LordJustin

        Whether they are or not is a matter of expediency and cold war tactics. Beyond that, nobody important cares. In any event, it is none of our business and we should leave the EU now.

    • William Battersby

      I don’t know who you are but you know little of your history. We did not live harmoniously with Tsarist Russia. We fought a huge war with them in the 1850’s in the Crimea, the Baltic and the Pacific, and a multi-decade ‘cold war’ in Asia which Kipling called ‘the Great Game’.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        The Triple Entente caused the Great War, the greatest civilizational tragedy of all to that point, and that Entente included Russia.

        • William Battersby

          Every single Viceroy of India up to and including Curzon considered Russia his biggest threat. I’m not sure which of then drank you but perhaps you might have overheard the conversations….

          • the viceroy’s gin

            Russia was their biggest threat externally, but their biggest threats were internal, as we know. The external threats simply never amounted to much, unlike the India of today.

            Be that as it may, after it was settled that Russia was not a significant threat there or anywhere else, and was in fact quite weak, they joined the Triple Entente, became an ally of the UK and together they brought on the great conflagration.

            In other words, somebody went looking for trouble abroad, and found it. Sounds familiar, eh?

  • Count Dooku

    Russia is screwed anyway. They are not having babies and they have an increasingly militarist China on their southern border. We will outlast them.

    Or real enemies are closer to home and in the ME.

    • Chris Morriss

      If only the UK would, if not stop, then severely curtail “having babies”. A population of 40 to 50 million would vastly increase the quality of life for the inhabitants. (And solve the housing crisis). It can be done painlessly over the next two generations if the will was there. (It requires also the will to stringently clamp down on immigration of course).
      Why does no-one point out that the silly couple with the severely ill child have seven children? Are they total *ickheads or what?

      • AndrewMelville

        Hear hear. Start by stopping mass immigration.

      • Count Dooku

        Yes, I suggest you volunteer first and get a vasectomy.

        • Chris Morriss

          I’m not responsible for bringing any children into this world, and I’m too old to start now, so no vasectomy needed. I wouldn’t have needed much financial incentive to have one though when I was younger. I do believe that there is an increased risk of prostate cancer if you get snipped however.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Never too old Chris. My dad was 70 when I was conceived.

            • Chris Morriss

              That must have made for a very odd childhood (seriously!).
              My father was too young when I was born, and the results of that may well be why I never chose fatherhood.
              (Mind you, now that I’m over 60, the idea of a much younger wife would be interesting. Stupid, probably, but interesting!)

              • Damaris Tighe

                Odd exactly sums it up! For the same (but other end of the parental age spectrum) reason as you I made the same decision.

                Men always want much younger wives!

        • Chris Morriss

          Do you actually like living in this country with 65 million inhabitants? (At a conservative estimate, many authorities think the current population could be 10 million more than this).
          Do you really not think that the quality of life wouldn’t be better if there were 20 million fewer?

          • Count Dooku

            No. I live in The centre of London, the most crowded city in Europe. Absolutely love it here.
            If you dislike people so much move to the Orkneys :).

            • Chris Morriss

              But it’s full of ersatz Scots!

            • Chris Morriss

              You sad, sad man.

            • Jacques Strap

              Do you know where you food comes from or do you expect it to appear in the shop?

              It is not about disliking people.

              • Count Dooku

                I pay people to produce my food. Farmers pay city dwellers for their cars, machinery, technology, energy, building materials etc. It’s called trade. Only 2% of the population work in agriculture.

                • tolpuddle1

                  But much of our food comes from abroad, until a crisis prevents it.

                  And our climate is becoming unreliable

                • Ordinaryman

                  “Only 2% of the population work in agriculture”. True, but 100% of the population need their produce, which probably makes them a damn site more important than the ‘city’.

                • Count Dooku

                  Yes yes, everyone’s important. If that makes you feel better.

                • Ordinaryman

                  Their humanity makes a person important, it’s not always the case with their occupation.

            • Dr. Heath

              Good for you. I used to love visiting London. Lots of boozing, loads of friends having parties, loads of places where I could crash for the night. So much for adolescence and a cast-iron spinal column.

              On recent visits, I’ve been reminded of a sort of vast refugee centre. Thousands of people traipsing gleelessly along the streets or in the Underground wearing trainers and carrying rucksacks to work at, so I’ve been told, generally atrocious jobs or, at tea-time, returning to equally atrocious accommodation. Sure, the place is stacked to the gills with people carrying out those tremendously well-remunerated and unaffordably parasitic and non-wealth-making jobs in the legal services, the media, the civil service and politics. They’re hard to spot, though, in the crowds of people in sneakers and jeans and carrying their salad pots and yoghurts to their call-centre [and other crappy] jobs.

              • Count Dooku

                Ha! Lots of cynicism on your part Mr Heath.
                I find the city vibrant with lots to do and see. I think it makes a big difference if you actually live there or if you are a commuter.

                Someone who gets tired of London is tired of life itself.

                • Ordinaryman

                  I get seriously tired of London, I never get tired of life.

            • tolpuddle1

              The Orkneys can feed themselves; London can’t.

      • Denis_Cooper

        Just to point out that by the early 1990’s the number of births in the UK each year was actually getting down very close to the number deaths each year, and if that had continued the population would have soon started a gentle decline, and that was when the government swung from its previous “would-be zero” immigration policy to the present policy of allowing and encouraging mass immigration under every conceivable pretext. So in effect the British people were rewarded for having fewer children themselves by their government importing large numbers of other people’s children from abroad.

        • Chris Morriss

          You are unfortunately right there. I am old enough to have seen the start of the decline in the birth rate in the 1970s and for a while it seemed as if we would have a gently decreasing population for a couple of generations. Why on earth did the various governments (left and right) suddenly decide that the population must be boosted with immigrants, especially those not compatible with our culture? And no, before someone says this: it was not for economic reasons!
          The chilling thing is that all this is part of the roadmap in the infamous “Protocols of the Elders…” Now why that is, is another matter.

        • Dr. Heath

          About a decade ago, I asked a Labour supporting friend, a person of Afro-Caribbean descent, why his party was encouraging uncontrolled immigration into the UK. “Because all of the immigrants will vote Labour.”

          I think that Denis Cooper and my friend are both right. But it’s not only the very low birth rate in the UK, a phenomenon repeated across the developed world in places as rich as Canada and Japan, but the flow of people out of the country that is likely to prompt civil servants to warn their political masters of the need for a counterbalance in the form of a massive influx of just about anybody who can get here.

          The UK, of course, is full up. Most of the people I studied at uni with are childless and middle-aged. The reasons are to be found in the approaching demise of The Job as an institution and rocketing house prices. These disincentives to have children will dissuade the children of immigrants from having children. Pressure to emigrate to countries perceived as lands of milk and honey will accelerate. So the short-termist policy will prove, in the long-term, futile.

          Few politicians, I’m sure, have the cojones to acknowledge either the real reasons behind our policies of unrestricted immigration or that the UK is not able to support a population of well over sixty million.

        • LordJustin

          That’s OK. It lowered the wages and expectations of the plebs. And, as Mrs Thatcher discovered when the old Etonian and Marxist knives came out to stop the middle class revolution, that’s all that matters.

      • LordJustin

        You’re right. Governments need to do more to contain population growth than just encourage contraception and gay marriage.

    • tolpuddle1

      Europe isn’t having babies and will soon be Eurabia.

    • LordJustin

      “We” being…?

      • Count Dooku

        Blighty of course. And England in particular.

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