Coffee House

Cameron does not have as much time as he’d like on European reform

1 September 2014

1 September 2014

What should worry David Cameron more, Douglas Carswell’s defection to Ukip or reports that as many as 100 Tory MPs could go into the general election pledging to leave the European Union? The former is certainly more dramatic and promises plenty of humiliation over the next few months. But the latter could show the Prime Minister that he doesn’t have as much time on European reform as he would like, and that he is still not trusted by a large contingent of his party.

It is one thing for Better Off Out members such as Mark Reckless to pledge to campaign to leave, no matter what reforms David Cameron manages to secure. But it is much more serious if other MPs decide that there is little point in holding their breath for whatever Cameron can produce by 2017, either because they think voters have already made up their minds and will only reward an Outist MP at the ballot box in 2015, or because they don’t think Cameron will produce anything significant. Carswell cited this fear when he announced that he was leaving the party, even though he had made his mind up already that Britain was better off out. Other MPs have not yet decided how to campaign – and Jacob Rees-Mogg last night told Westminster Hour that ‘if the Prime Minister hasn’t by the election set out very clearly his terms for renegotiation and the circumstances under which he would call for a ‘No’ vote’, he would be very tempted to put a statement in his election literature saying he would campaign to leave.

The Prime Minister has so far seemed relaxed about the renegotiation efforts he must make before the election. But here is the ultimatum from eurosceptics that became inevitable as soon as Carswell defected: we will cause trouble for you unless you tell us what your shopping list is. And this is the last thing that the Prime Minister wants to do, not least because his shopping list will not satisfy as many eurosceptics as he needs. But it clear that he cannot put this off until after the election: a referendum pledge on its own is no longer enough.


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Show comments
  • https://mikestallard.virtualgallery.com/ Mike Stallard

    On Conservative Home today there is a scoop. Douglas Carswell gives the real reason for his unexpected defection. It is the Bloomberg meeting in Berlin which showed quite conclusively that the Mandarins and people at the Top of the Party are going to betray their sacred trust. They have absolutely no intention of reforming the EU. They are quite happy to go along with the drift towards More Europe regardless of what any of us plebs think.
    When I read that, I decided that I, for one, am voting UKIP in the General Election.

  • evad666

    The Tories Like Labour before them have been rumbled. They are merely opposite sides of the same corrupt cartel.

  • Conway

    … as many as 100 Tory MPs could go into the general election pledging to leave the European Union” If they haven’t been voting the right, anti-EU, way that won’t help them. My supposedly EU sceptic MP has voted for more EU and against giving us a referendum. He did not affirm the sovereignty of Parliament. Why should anybody think he would be whole-heartedly behind leaving the EU with that voting record? UKIP it is.

  • saffrin

    “A referendum pledge on its own is no longer enough.”
    It never was, the main reason being, only Hooky belived it.
    Carswell jumped ship because he knew he’d be out of a job if he didn’t.

  • Lina R

    These Tory MPs are going to hand victory to Miliband and then there’ll be no referendum.

  • andagain

    Well, that’s it. Labour will get in next year, and that will be the end of the referendum they say they want.

  • Mike Barnes

    Fraser Nelson and other pundits seem to think Cameron is keeping his cards close to his chest because he doesn’t want the opponents of reform knowing what he wants.

    But in reality Cameron is keeping his cards close to his chest because he doesn’t want us, the voters, to know what he wants.

    He knows he can’t deliver anything important, so must keep his objectives hidden until after the 2015 general election.

    The EU is not about to reverse in terms of free movement of people, open borders, environmental rules, fishing, defense, economics etc etc.

    Changing the brand of paperclips in Brussels is about all Dave can achieve, he knows it, but won’t admit it. He’s got an election to try and win.

  • james allen

    God this is boring. Tory MPs without the balls to do anything. Cameron without the intelligence or grit. Labour without the willingness and the Lib Dems without any principles.

    Politics has become a great yawn-fest of all talk, no action. Bring on the inevitable financial collapse of the UK… it can’t come soon enough. Maybe then we’ll wake up from this nightmare.

    • Wessex Man

      Vote Ukip!

  • Denis_Cooper

    May 2015:

    “I pledge that if elected as your Conservative MP I will campaign for withdrawal from the EU, unless our negotiations lead to a new and satisfactory settlement.”

    Some time in 2017:

    “While we have not achieved everything we wanted through our renegotiations with the EU we have a greatly improved settlement which in my view is satisfactory, and therefore in accordance with my manifesto pledge I will campaign to stay in the EU during the forthcoming referendum”.

    Except of course it is extremely unlikely that there will be any referendum in 2017 requiring Tory MPs to choose which side to take, because

    a) Labour has an effective lead of about 10% over the Tory party and the odds are heavily against the Tories getting an overall majority in May 2015, with or without the presence of UKIP as a rising force on the political scene; and

    b) In any case Cameron can never be trusted to keep any promise, including the promise of a referendum which he repeatedly said he did not want.

  • Fred Smith

    “The Prime Minister has so far seemed relaxed about the renegotiation efforts he must make before the election.”

    Not so much relaxed as silent and determined to avoid the question at all costs.

    This is not really surprising since 2017 is too short a time to achieve treaty change and any worthwhile change, such as to the CFP or Free Movement would involve treaty change. In any case, senior figures in the EU have consistently made it clear that the changes Cameron has hinted at are simply not a possibility.

    Judging by the talk a few months back of what could be passed of as significantly different terms without treaty change i.e. doing a Wilson, his reticence should surprise no one.

  • Rhoda Klapp8

    Should I count this as the thirteenth Carswell post? Is it not just another opportunity to go round the houses again, tribals vs kippers, vote kip get wallace, no changing positions, all been said before every day on this site for months?

    It’s cheap lazy blogging. All the issues in the post have been discussed below the line literally hundreds of times. Get a grip. Give us an original post. One morning, don’t follow the political talking points agenda set by the beeb and the graun, find something new and worthwhile to write about.

  • HookesLaw

    Usual frothing by the nutjobs about a referendum. We will of course never get a referendum as long as UKIP work to preserve a Labour govt in power.

    Its pathetic to see the deranged excuses and hoops they jump themselves through to justify putting and keeping a Europhile labour party in power.

    • Wessex Man

      Hooky, you are again reaching those depths where there is no point exchanging views with you, you are becoming fixated on UKip whereas any defeat of your party will be down to your party and it’s lying leader.

    • ButcombeMan

      You are so out of touch, In parts of the North UKIP are a real danger to Labour.

      Milliband and Labour are not talking about it much, but they know it..

      All i want, for now, is a small number of UKIP MPs who might have the power the LibDems had, at the start of the coalition.

      That is beginning to look possible.

  • Denis_Cooper

    Are you really so naive that you give any credit to those “reports that as many as 100 Tory MPs could go into the general election pledging to leave the European Union”, except in almost all instances with a let-out that they would only support staying in if Cameron had achieved a satisfactory outcome from his hypothetical renegotiation, which of course they would all then claim to be the case? Anybody who voted for a Tory candidate on that basis would be a fool asking to be cheated.

  • http://batman-news.com The Commentator

    Cameron doesn’t need any more time to set out a negotiating position because he knows, just as everyone else does that there isn’t going to be a re-negotiation. What there probably will be though is an internal collapse in the hated EU. All the Eurozone economies are going into reverse including Germany’s. Meanwhile Russia’s tanks are definitely in forward gear and making good progress. President Obama is peeking round the sofa not sure whether it is safe to come out yet. It isn’t.

  • pobinr

    I drove from Bedford to Southampton yesterday.

    At 10pm on a Sunday night the M1 & M25 were full to capacity with 50mph & 60mph speed limits & the hardshoulder being used as a driving lane.

    I did the same journey in 1998 & it simply was not like that.

    We’ve got too many people here

    I do not trust Cameron.
    I do not want at best another 3 years worth of people from poor countries in Eastern Europe desperate for £6 per hour jobs in Costa & Starbucks etc, so paying next to no tax, but still entitled to working family tax credits, child benefit, NHS, subsidised housing, free translators in schools & subsidised nursery care all paid for by us.

    All adding to traffic congestion, the housing shortage, more houses on greenbelt, longer NHS queues, more dependence on food & energy imports.

    Meantime the already low density population countries they come from get poorer & further depopulated due to mass exodus of their workforce.

    That is the ones that are working of course.
    I was speaking to Pole the other day at 11am.
    I asked him how come you’re not at work?
    He replied he ‘Couldn’t get any more chef work here’
    I said will you be going back to Poland then?
    He replied ‘No I steel beetar off here’ !
    On the dole !
    So having worked for a short while on min wage having paid next to no tax or NI he can spend years here on the dole if he chooses at our expense!

    Under EU dictat XYZ retired East Europeans that have been here a year are entitled to their £120 a month pension topped up to around £500 a month UK pension paid for by us. We pay NI for 40 years to get a UK pension. They pay for 0 years!

    Southampton General Hospital has had to put extra operating theatres in portakabins on the roof of the 6 storey main block to accomodate all the extra patients due to mass immigration. They’ve had to buy motorised beds to get them up the slope it’s so steep & it takes three members of staff to push the anaesthetic trolleys up there. All due to mass immigration.

    The social housing waiting list is now 8+ years long. Every other name on the maternity unit cots is East European.

    Open borders are the equivalent of taking the locks of your front door!

    They’ll keep coming here until we’re as poor as them.

    We are overuled & overun

    We need a referendum NOW !
    Vote UKIP on principle

    • HookesLaw

      A very scientific survey.
      Motorways are always full going south on Sundays just as they are full on Fridays going north.
      I used to be part of that routine 25 years ago, it was the same then as now.

      • ButcombeMan

        To pretend that UK roads are not carrying more traffic than 1990 is just futile mindless silliness..

        http://racfoundation.wordpress.com/2013/04/12/number-of-vehicles-in-uk-hits-new-high/

      • Wessex Man

        Now listen he zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

      • pobinr

        Hard shouldre used as a lane. An obvious increase in traffic
        5 orf 10m more people here
        What else do you expect
        You don’t beleive it’s just 3m more do you?
        They don’t have a clue how many!

    • Nic Walmsley

      Hey, I think you’ve explained the problem well. Too many people, too quickly, not contributing enough to the social-infrastructure before they rely on it. Not about how different people are (that can be a problem, but often it isn’t).

      But, maybe the other way to stop “them coming over here” is to make things better over there.

      Just saying. Seems to me there are a 1001 issue issues these days which always boil down to, if it weren’t so terrible in the 3rd world, everyone would be better off for it (including us westerners).

      • pobinr

        Right so this little Island £1.3 tn in debt needs to
        a] make things better for the 3bn poor people of the world!
        b] Or close our borders
        I prefer option b] personally
        My advice for the poor = Don’t breed what you can’t feed.

  • The_Missing_Think

    Pledges?

    I recall there was Clegg’s written and signed ‘pledge’, nonchalently flushed down the pan within minutes, as the coalition agreement seamlessly merged into existence.

    Not forgetting, the fictional “tens of thousands” pledge.

    And the fact that politcal party manifestos have already been declared 100% non-legally binding worthless (1).

    I can honestly say I believe Britain is a giant nuthouse. I’ll swear on it. Not axeman nuts, but partially gone, a bit like a puncture on a car, not all there, so…

    It’s like trying to genuinely use worthless (2) Monopoly money in a real shop, and refusing to back down, eventually some Govt people will arrive and sort the problem out.

    Which part is it inmates, worth or less? (3).

    • HookesLaw

      That will be the ukip manifesto Farage never read and said was rubbish?

      • Wessex Man

        Oh really Hooky babe, you become tiresome in your blind obedience to Camerloon, has he promised you a K?

        Our manfesto for 2015 comes out at the end of the month.

  • global city

    The next government should undertake a review of all of these international, supranational and intergovernmental agreements we have committed to, as in totality they are crushing the life out of our democracy and independence. Many of them are contradictory, outdated or signed by one PM or other at their most posturing and hubristic.

    Too many technocrats and activist judges and lawyers now determine what actions we can take, or how we can be condemned for something insignificant.

    We have signed too many treaties, ceded too much power, promised too many alliances, undertaken to conform to too many regulatory authorities…all in an incoherent and arbitrary fashion. Any government that objectively does this would most likely find that we could scrap most of them and actually become a more effective international ‘partner’ as well as a restored democratic sphere.

    I think Carswell may get UKIP to promise such an undertaking.

    The others better beware.

  • Tony_E

    I don’t see the problem. This is exactly how is should be – with the individual MPs given freedom to campaign on either side of the debate there would always be a great number who were opposed to the EU from principle and would always campaign to leave it.

    Also, it would be for the local associations to ascertain whether this was the case before they approved re-selection, as the MP standing in a seat represents his constituents and his local party’s grass roots.

    So while Cameron might see this as an issue – I see as a natural part of the electoral process.

    • Denis_Cooper

      “… with the individual MPs given freedom to campaign on either side of the debate there would always be a great number who were opposed to the EU from principle and would always campaign to leave it.”
      I doubt that you could find more than about fifty from across all the parties; the rest would either campaign to stay in on the basis of whatever essentially worthless and probably temporary concessions had been graciously granted to Cameron – just enough to get the vote to go the right way with the correct persuasion, as Carswell has now realised – or would keep their heads down.

  • swatnan

    Lord Snooty Rees-Mogg, the next rat to desert the sinking ship?

    • Holly

      Typical crass remarks.
      Miliband is not too far behind him in the ‘snooty’ rankings.
      Followed by Balls, Coop, Bozo, Harman, Chuck, Kinnock, Blair, Prescott, and a whole load of others, who have made their money off the backs of the poor, the vulnerable, the sick, charities, and people who EARN their wealth in the private sector.

      You just allow me to inform others of how Labour are exactly the same as those who you reckon are ‘snooty’ or heaven forbid, rich through the efforts of their parents/grand-parents.

      Many thanks.
      Keep it up.

    • The Masked Marvel

      If only. Except the sinking ship in this case is the EU. Which Britain should never have boarded in the first place, and has missed several disembarkation points along the way.

      Class war is tiresome, and never speaks to the character of the person being attacked. Quite the opposite, usually.

  • ScaryBiscuits

    A referendum pledge is no longer enough.
    It was never enough. Cameron always promises too little to late. Worse, the promises have to be forced out of him and therefore nobody trusts him. He really is just incompetent at his job.

    • Conway

      Especially when we have already seen how the last pledge worked out.

  • Peter Stroud

    How many times have we heard that Cameron is relaxed about some current problem? Now, according to Isobel, he is at it again – over his renegotiation issue. Carswell’s defection should be a loud wake up call to the PM. He has but a little time to cease relaxing, and sit up and take notice of his MPs and the rank and file of his party. Euroscepticism is increasing, both within the ‘swivel eyed’ Tory party membership, and among the voters as a whole. He would do better if he ceased shouting at Putin, and concentrate on his party issues.

  • MichtyMe

    Perhaps we should have a third option in any Euro referendum, direct rule from Brussels. One possible benefit of this would be that the redundant Palace of Westminster could be converted into luxury residences for sale to the cosmopolitain representatives of global commerce, finance and the markets who have the real “sovereignity” of this land.

  • ManOfKent

    Cameron needs to make up his mind. Either he is for Britain or he is for Brussels. He can’t be for both not with Brussels heading for federal union.

    • Fred Smith

      Cameron’s just attempting to carry out the same balancing act the Conservatives have done for years and which he inherited; pretending that there’s some reform option as regards the EU, “In Europe but not ruled by Europe”, and we can pick the bits we like, to keep the Conservative Party together.

      It’s all wearing rather thin, as the only two realistic position are to be in and go along with the lot, political integration, free movement, the Euro, or to be out. it’s always been heading for political integration, as that’s always been its fundamental purpose.

      Nonetheless, actually saying that the Conservative position with regards the EU was in, would be disastrous for them, so Cameron’s stuck playing this dishonest game of reform.

      It’s an increasingly desperate game, probably designed to prevent defeat in the coming GE being as bad as it would otherwise be, but should they win, offering the attractive possibility of doing a Wilson, securing an in vote on false pretences and settling the question effectively for good.

  • ButcombeMan

    Much better Isabel. there is hope for you yet.

    Now, can you have a quiet word with Fraser over the coffee break.

    His abject recent performance, parroting Tory HQ, has been appalling..

  • goatmince

    If it was indeed the case that 100+ conservative MPs were planning to go into a general election claiming they wanted to leave the EU, then they surely would be doing that in a desperate attempt to save their sorry backsides. Bring it on, bring on the comedy of the Little England fringe fest.

    • foxoles

      They would be doing it because UKIP seems now to be setting the agenda.

      • goatmince

        Yes, and the muppet pictured is one who will desperately try to save his sorry backside. Bring it on I say, bring on the comedy of the Little England fringe fest.

        • foxoles

          Well, I must admit I used to be a fan of Bagpuss: I thought he was one of those old-fashioned honest, honourable types.

          Very disappointed in him in recent days, however … trying to pull the wool over our eyes about how very euroscepetic Cameron is. Haha.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …what about the comedy of your child s e x slavery fest, lad?

          Didn’t you multi culti fringe freaks do a turn there, huh?

    • ButcombeMan

      Let me imagine I am faced with the choice, either a sitting Conservative MP who seeks my vote claiming they want to leave the EU or the real thing from UKIP, someone I know absolutely agrees with me.

      I will choose UKIP,

      Why?

      Because of Cameron..

    • Inverted Meniscus

      Or they might be doing it to escape from you and all your sockpuppets lad.

  • http://english-pensioner.blogspot.co.uk/ english_pensioner

    How can we judge if the renegotiations are a success when we aren’t given any details of what Cameron hopes to renegotiate?
    I feel that he will be thrown some trivia by the EU (such as a exemption allowing Britain to have higher powered vacuum cleaners) and come back claiming a “great success” and that we should all vote to stay in.
    We need to know the aims before the General Election so that we can consider whether we feel that they go far enough and thus whether it is worth voting Tory.

    • Blindsideflanker

      Well that is the problem. Not only is Cameron seeking to keep everything vague so that he can claim success when tossed a few crumbs by Brussels, but that he has the arrogance to think he knows what is constitutionally best for the country., when it is not his constitution, it is OUR constitution.

      As such he should have asked us what powers we wanted back, and as we have already had too many of our people thrown into the dustbin of political expediency in gubby deals deals with Brussels, I don’t believe we should ever again choose to deprive people of their constitutional rights of representation in Parliament , just because they weren’t the most powerful lobby,nor the current ‘in’ cause. All people deserve their representation, so we need ALL our sovereignty restored.

    • Alexandrovich

      Oh no…that’ll mean vacuum cleaner tourists.

  • jamesbarn

    Did you know as far back as 1950s Jean Monnet one of the founder of the EU said:
    “Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super state without their peoples knowing what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federalism.”
    Did you know The Maastricht Treaty of 1993 signed by John Major and Francis Maude made all of us, including the Queen, citizens of the EU? this could have been deemed an act of treason by any who sign it and Norris McWhirter exercised his right as a private citizen in taking Hurd and Maude to court for treason. The Attorney General in the Conservative government exercised his power to take over any private citizen’s right to go to law and thus ended the treason procedure about Hurd and Maude.
    And we live in a free and democratic society – right!
    This is one of the many reasons why I will be voting UKIP!

    • Wessex Man

      I freely give you a sample of Business for Britain, a group of British businesses that want out of the EU, the result of their Freedom of Information battle with the Foreign Office offical advice given to Harold Wilson prior to the one and only referendum allowed in 1975, which lasted a year!

      Ministers were warned that the Law making powers of the Brussels bureaucracy would lead to “a gross infringement ot the Westminster Parliament.”

      A Senior Offical told Wison that transferring powers to the Brussels based European Commision threatened the most serious attack on parliamentary democracy that this country has faced.

      The people who voted to stay in the then EEC were told none of this, their vote would definately have been against staying in.

      I’m proud to say that I was always wary of the EEC and woted to get out!

  • global city

    The two core points about Cameron’s tactics causing problems are that the UK does not have to be in political Union to take part in any of the positive initiatives in Europe (open skies, roaming charges, etc)

    Sceptics know that Cameron’s tactics are simply to compel their loyalty to the party, not to rock the boat and that in return he has offered nothing and intends to deliver less.

    • Blindsideflanker

      “he has offered nothing and intends to deliver less.”

      You have beautifully and succinctly summarised Cameron’s EU strategy.

  • London Calling

    Once upon a time, in a land far far away a small group of power hungry people thought it would be a good idea to form a European Union. Nothing would get in its way and laws were intoduced to bined countries together. In the end it grew into a monster with many heads that then grew into one head and poison came from its mouth as it waged a war on its path to becoming a super power whereby no one person could slay it………………………

    David Cameron is but one person aginst a wall of laws and more laws and more laws
    good luck to him and let us save our country from the power hungry monster we helped grow into the beast we now know……………:(

    • global city

      forged at a time when the intellectual political environment was dominated by the assumption that, regardless of ideological base, central elites would guide whole societies, untroubled by democratic fickleness. The technocracy.

      This was solidified in the minds of the core pushing for European union, as they could say that Hitler was the product of fickle minded electorates.

      This stupid idea shaped the structures of the EU that we have.

  • clevispin

    ‘a referendum pledge on its own is no longer enough.’

    It was never enough, I doubt many of us trusted him, even then.

    • Tony_E

      No, but without one, how do you propose to leave the EU?

      • Wessex Man

        Having a referendum and voting to leave!

        • P_S_W

          And just who will offer one of those? Realistically?

          • Wessex Man

            Well it’s not going to be Cameron is it see my post about areas of power being transferred on the 1st of November!

      • clevispin

        Nige’l do it.

  • foxoles

    Cameron is soooo behind the curve it’s embarrassing.

    • Blindsideflanker

      Indeed, what is surprising is how Cameron got become Conservative party leader and PM with such a malfunctioning political nose.

      He has to be dragged kicking and screaming to do what is popular with the British people, while he expends political capital on stuff that is designed to p1ss people off.

      What is more gobsmacking is that Cameron and his coterie can’t figure out why they don’t get the political benefit of eventually arriving at a popular policy position when they have done everything in their power to forestall that day ever arriving.

  • Full Name

    >”there is little point in holding their breath for whatever Cameron can produce by 2017, either because they think voters have already made up their minds and will only reward an Outist MP at the ballot box in 2015, or because they don’t think Cameron will produce anything significant.”

    1. Evidence points out the REFORM MEME is false (see Hollande, Barroso, Shalz and see Article 48 Lisbon Treaty for chances of “OPT-OUT”
    2. Only Article 50 Lisbon Treaty allows for “OPT-IN” and a ready-made one too with the EEA that far exceeds anything “renegotiation in Treaties” without breaking them and triggering Article 48.

    So Isabelle, it took 2 short points to demonstrate the veracity, the validity and the viability of the correct option to take.

    And you mugs in the media and MPs as above have failed to communicate that to the electorate over decades.

    You insist on talking about the “chicken (out) and the egg (reform)” – but let’s say the egg is already hatched and is a chick. The question is what sort of Chicken (out) will it grow into?

    I know where the Spectator’s loyalties lie, but given my father was an avid reader pre-pre- internet of this magazine I’d like to see the quality of this magazine continue.

  • Lady Magdalene

    Even IF Cameron proposes to hold a serious renegotiation, the EU has already made it perfectly clear that they will not re-open the Treaties so any concessions would be short-lived. The EU train is going only one way, with one destination: a United States of Europe.
    A Sovereign nation which doesn’t want to be absorbed into the European Elite’s new empire has only one option: GET OFF THE TRAIN.
    And that’s what we are fighting for. I don’t care how the EU “reforms.” I want our Sovereignty restored. I want out.

    • ManOfKent

      When push comes to shove as it did over that Junckers vote; what was it?; Brussels 26 Cameron 2, its obvious where the EU’s intentions lie.

      What was it Wet Willy Hague used to say:

      In Europe and Royally Screwed By Europe

      Or something like that…….

  • Chris Quin

    Don’t vote for any Conservative, no matter what label they might pin on themselves. Eurosceptic (Cameron is called this on occasion – what a joke he is a pro-EU liberal), Outist (Reckless), Might Leaveist (Rees-Mogg). They are all kidding themselves.

    Just Vote UKIP. Simples!

    • YahYah

      I think that sovereignty is important, so I’ll be voting for a party that can actually win next year’s election. Not Ukip. Simples!

      • foxoles

        They may win but they won’t preserve your sovereignty. Not so much simples, as simple.

      • rupertstubbs

        Thanks to UKIP, the only party that can actually win next year’s election will be Labour. Hope the feeling of smugness that the talkbackers here will feel lasts for the following 5 years of capitulation to the EU by Milliband…

        • Chris Quin

          It will not be a feeling of smugness, but of deep regret. Cameron has shown that he has only his own interests at heart, not those of the country or even his party (the one that he has hi-jacked and imposed his liberal pro-EU views on). The only way of ousting him is to vote for another party. He clearly won’t listen to any advice or change his stance, so he has to go.

          • P_S_W

            Deep regret that you have caused a Labour government that will in no way allow you to vote to withdraw from the EU?

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …so, same as the Cameroons then?

        • Mynydd

          How can we have 5 years of capitulation to the EU by Miliband, when, he and the Labour party are in opposition, therefore have no power to capitulate anything. Their duty is to hold the government to account. So if there has been any capitulation to the EU it must have been by the Conservative/Lib Dem government.

          • Colonel Mustard

            He means when Labour win the election in 2015. Please note the word “following” in his original comment, e.g. 2015-2020.

        • ManOfKent

          The last refuge of delusional loser is to blame others for ones own failure. The simple reason that the Tories will be kicked out of government is people don’t have faith in them or their duplicitous mealy mouthed leader.

          That the Tories have chosen to blame a party that polled 2% at the last General Election is utterly pathetic and only demonstrates how weak and impotent the once mighty Tories have becomme and what a vacuous hollowed out waste of political space they are!

          Even playing the big flat-track bully picking on the UKIP little guy they are losing big time and clearly abject failures. UKIP are running rings around them. The Tories are truly risible losers!

        • Fred Smith

          The travails of the Conservatives are down to Cameron’s ineptness and the collapse of the LibDems.

        • Kitty MLB

          Well dear Rupert, you have appeared to have rattled a few cages.If Labour resume where they
          left off the succubus that is the EU will seem like
          a pussycat in comparison.To think anything less
          is living in a fools paradise.

          • Fred Smith

            No, it’s that it’s ridiculous to blame UKIP when Cameron has been, in large measure, the source of the Conservatives’ misfortunes.

            e.g. He didn’t have to make the Cast Iron Promise, and Hague didn’t have to witter on about “not letting matters rest there” and then be exposed as frauds referring to the small print. Men with more integrity, or simply more sound judgement wouldn’t have done that.

            • Kitty MLB

              Eh! did I mention UKIP? I wear my breeches and sharpen my rapier sword whilst I lay in
              wait for Labour. ‘As to the gods they attack him
              for their sport’ -attacking Cameron is now indeed the national sport. I shall save my energy for Ed Balls Milipede and all the rest.

              • Fred Smith

                No you didn’t mention UKIP, but Rupert did and your comment appeared to be broadly supportive, or is my reading of it awry?

                • P_S_W

                  Whether you blame Ukip or Cameron is irrelevant, the result will be the same.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …Dave’s head on a spike?

                • Wessex Man

                  that would be nice!

            • Conway

              Cameron didn’t have to deliberately and systematically alienate his core support, but he did. To rub salt into the wound he then insulted them.

        • Alexsandr

          do you not think Labours core vote is not vulnerable to UKIP? Do you not think the rotherham scandal wont put people off labour? And remember, UKIP won 10 out of 21 seats in Rotherham council elections in May and recently won a by election in Doncaster.

          • P_S_W

            If you honestly think that Ukip will win enough seats to hold the balance of power, let alone a large enough swing to form a majority, then you are more deluded than I would previously have thought.

            • Alexsandr

              Sorry, i didnt know you were a medium with ability to fortell, the furture.
              No-one knows what will happen between now and May. events dear boy, events.
              But I still say people should vote for the party they want, not for a party they dont want. If you were a (theoretical) tory supporter how would you like it if I were to tell you to vote UKIP for some reason. I would hope you would tell me to b*gger off.

              • Kitty MLB

                P-S-W happens to be a modest and very brave
                young military chap, if Islamic terrorists try to
                murder you, he will put himself on the line to
                save your life..just remember that.

            • global city

              King maker is becoming more and more likely.

        • http://batman-news.com The Commentator

          I doubt if a Miliband government would last more than a year. Labour’s return to spending and borrowing would probably result in a bond market strike and a currency collapse. That would be the end of Labour for the foreseeable future.

          • P_S_W

            Let’s see.

        • Wessex Man

          oh dear here we go again, another tiresome tory blaming UKip for their own self inflicted destruction!

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …same capitulation the Cameroons are doing, lad .

        • global city

          What ever Miliband’s will be able to pass over to the EU will be done by the Tories or coalition.

          How do you thing think that a tory government would differ on power transfers to the EU?

          Gawd, you bloody tories are stupid!

      • Chris Quin

        I will make this as straightforward for you as possible. Cameron does not agree with you – ergo don’t vote for him. If the only way to get rid of him is for him to lose the election, that is a price worth paying. I would even switch my vote to Labour if I thought it would get rid of Cameron – he is a lying pro-EU liberal and he must be got rid of. How about lending a hand rather than critising.

        • Adro

          So you’re going to vote against someone who you perceive as a ‘lying pro-EU liberal’ and vote for an unashamedly pro-EU socialist……

          Because that seems logical.

          • Chris Quin

            Thankfully I have a choice to vote for a party that unashamedly for exiting the EU and that is what I will do. I was merely making the point that Cameron must be got rid of by any means possible.

            • global city

              What do people think about UKIP making a punt and changing their manifesto to ‘vote for us to leave….no referendum just out’

              Make the GE the referendum then once the relevant legislation is enacted we could have another GE.

              I think that if they did that then UKIP would win both elections!

            • auntyeleet

              Dead right Chris, we must be rid of him whatever the cost, Cameron and his ilk need to be shown that people are sick of their arrogant “we know best attitude”. Hope Douglas Carswell wipes the floor with them at the Clacton byelection.

          • Alexsandr

            not heard of UKIP then. A party who has UK interests at heart. Whats not to like?
            I will not vote for a party I dont like to keep another party i dont like out of power.

            • Adro

              Except that is exactly what Chris said he would do. He said he’d vote for Labour if it meant sticking one up to Cameron.

              Cameron is an utter idiot, but if you’re willing to vote in Miliband just to somehow spite the guy, you fall into the same category as the man you despise so much.

              • Alexsandr

                my liking of cameron is irrelevant. Its my trust thats missing

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …conservatives have to have a voice and party, and the Camerloons obviously are not that. If a UKIP were not available, and conservatives were forced to build up a conservative party out of the flotsam Camerloons, then yes, it’d make sense to vote Lab just to jetison the Camerloon flotsam. Then, one could build a conservative party.

                But there’s UKIP, so that choice isn’t necessary.

              • Conway

                No, he said he would even switch his vote to Labour, implying that it was an extreme case – presumably in the event there was nobody else to vote for.

      • ManOfKent

        You’re voting Labour?

      • global city

        That’s not how party based democracy works. You are supposed to back the party that most chimes with your world view, not some stupid calculation over who may win an election.

        • YahYah

          Oh, I’m supposed to do it that way, am I? It’s democracy, I’ll do it how I like.

          Happily, Cameron’s Conservatives chime most with my world view.

          • global city

            Fair enough. I didn’t suggest anything other than voting for the party that most chimes with your world view, you did!

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …and we conservatives reject your handmaiden.

    • ManOfKent

      Cameron is called this on occasion

      Only Dave himself at his most demented and delusional claims this anymore. Everyone knows he wants to be in ‘Europe and royally screwed by Europe’. He just loves being Merkel’s lap puppy so much.

      • Wessex Man

        oh please no! I’ll have that image in my head all day now!

  • Lady Magdalene

    The reported 100 Tory MPs who say they will vote to leave the EU are sceptics, not Better Off Outers.
    If they want to be taken seriously, they should either transfer to UKIP or sign the Better Off Out pledge.
    We cannot remain in the EU and remain a Sovereign nation. Either you believe in National Sovereignty and Democracy, or you don’t. Cameron doesn’t; Farage does. It really isn’t hard to understand.

    • @PhilKean1

      .
      We won’t take them seriously.

      Talk’s cheap. Action this day, or go back their constituencies and prepare for unemployment.
      .

    • global city

      Some sort of matrix of EU competences should be made so that, what ever Cameron ‘returns’ can be compared with what bulk of power would still remain with the EU.

      • Conway

        Whatever Cameron returns we can be sure it won’t be anything important but will be spun as though we are at last free. Should we be conned into voting to stay in, even these sops could easily be overturned. We are better off out.

        • global city

          Absolutely. Since it’s inception every transnational political entity has disappeared, from the USSR to the old European Empires. There are more than 200 independent nations in the world, most of them democratic, NONE of them part of a project of ever closer political union to a central high authority…..only ‘Europe’.

          There is no reason to be part of a political project. If the rest of the world’s countries can co-operate and get along without ceding their sovereignty and democracy then so can we.

    • Nic Walmsley

      The UK is a member of many alliances and international agreements.

      Of course you can be part of the EU and remain a sovereign nation.

      You just need to negotiate a better EU.

  • rupertstubbs

    Cameron has let the people of Scotland decide their future in a referendum – despite clearly believing that the UK should stay together. He would do the same in a referendum on Europe.

    What on earth could he do to change the result if the majority of the people decide we should leave the EU? I’m in no doubt that the EU itself would utter all sorts of Lear-like threats and scares, but that would only reinforce the perception of it as a bully state.

    UKIP and nervous Tories splitting the Tory Party means no pressure on Labour at the next election, therefore no reason to offer a referendum at all. Well done, chaps.

    • Lady Magdalene

      Cameron’s plan isn’t to change the result of any Referendum – it’s to use all the propaganda tools at his disposal (particularly the EU-funded BBC) and rig the Referendum to achieve an IN result.

      • Ordinaryman

        Or disregard an OUT result using the ‘weasel words’ he’s so familiar with. He is not to be trusted!

        • rupertstubbs

          If there was a majority vote in favour of leaving the EU then there are no words, weasel or otherwise, that would change it. That’s why no other UK government has ever allowed the British people a referendum.

          • foxoles

            He would simply say we didn’t understand the issue, and had voted wrongly out of ignorance. That’s what happened in Ireland.

            • rupertstubbs

              Eire has a long history of referenda (the Lisbon treaty was the 28th) due to that being a requirement to amend their constitution – they are used more as a political bargaining chip anyway. Not in the UK. Does anyone think that if Scotland votes to leave the UK the decision could be reversed by the government?

              • foxoles

                It’s not about their history of referendums (that is the correct plural for single questions put on multiple occasions – referenda means more than one question bring put at the same time) – it’s about their being made to vote again until they ‘get it right’, and then stopping (standard EU procedure).

                The difference with Scotland is that they have a leader who is campaigning for ‘out’ (of the UK, if not of EU) and is quite clear about it. He would not countenance, or be wishing for, any reversal, and would fight it tooth and nail. The Eu would support him in that.

                Our leader, on the other hand, would be campaigning to stay in, and would be secretly aiming to bring about such a reversal, aided by his EU ‘partners’, if the vote went against him.

              • Alexsandr

                that will depend on the negotiations. the government would have to get the independance bill through the commons.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                They’re not going to “leave the UK”. They will have the same monarchy, currency, passports… this is not what you think it is.

          • Alexsandr

            1975

      • rupertstubbs

        Well, why hasn’t he done that in the Scottish referendum? He really, really doesn’t want to be remembered as the PM who oversaw the break-up of Great Britain, but all the propaganda tools at his disposal don’t seem to be to be making much difference…

        • the viceroy’s gin

          There will be no “break-up”, regardless of the results of the referendum.

    • ManOfKent

      Have you never considered that one of the reasons why people have given up on the Tories is they are sick of them being incapable of dispatching Labour decisively as they once could? 5 times (including 2015) they will have tried (and Cameron destined their defeat the moment he signed the Coalition Agreement) and 5 times they will have failed (Coalitions with the Libdems is not dealing decisively with Labour). We’ve waited a generation already. How many generations should we wait? Two? Three? I would like to live in a country I believe in again before I die!

      The reality is simple. The Tories aren’t up to the job of taking on Labour anymore. Their brand is trashed irrevocably in increasing swathes of the country. They are divided and dysfunctional (as this article once again demonstrates). They are broken.

      So time to move on and the best way to take Labour on is when they are in power. When they are accountable. Tories are an irrelevance because they have proved time and again they cannot or will not deliver the change we need. So the message to Tories is join us if you want, join us if you care but otherwise get out the fecking way because you’re just blocking the way forward!

      • ButcombeMan

        A lot of the problem you correctly identify is Cameron himself, the combination with Boy George is a certain vote loser..

        it is very difficult to identify a Tory who could do better.

        Davis would have been better outside the M25, but he blew it by resigning his seat and listening to Shami too much. Damaged goods now.

        Who else is there?

        May-Wooden.

        Boris-Barmy

        Gove-Excellent but neutered by the left because he looked too dangerous.

        Er …Thats it.

  • Theodoxia

    Cameron has already revealed his position before going into the negotiating chamber (if he ever gets there): he won’t contemplate an outcome that involves leaving the EU. This stance (as he well knows himself) signals that he is not serious about reform. Does he think his backbenchers, and the electorate, are so stupid as not to have worked this out?

    • cambridgeelephant

      This ^^^^^^^^^!!!!!

    • Nic Walmsley

      Yes, cameron knows he has to stay in the EU.

      But, he’s not staying in to appease the left-wingers. He’s staying in because that is what big business wants.

      Would you agree?

  • http://www.brandaware.co.uk/ Paddy Briggs

    Let’s , for a moment, put Britain’s interests rather than Party politics to the fore. If we do that there is plenty of time. There is general agreement among most of the EU members that there is a need to rethink the relationship between member countries and the Union as a whole. Indeed that process is underway. What won’t happen is that Britain, or any other nation, gets special treatment. This is a matter for all 28 members who together comprise the Union.

    The Referendum pledge was profoundly unhelpful to the furtherance of good relations with our partners. It suggests that the UK will demand special treatment (which it won’t get) and that it will run away if it doesn’t get it. The EU could survive such a loss, with regrets. Britain could not. In an era of ever more interdependence between nation States the EU is a solid bulwark against petty nationalism. If ever there was a time NOT to raise the drawbridge it is now.

    • @PhilKean1

      .
      Who are you trying to convince?

      These baseless scare tactics are from times past. As it happens, I and many others believe it would Europe that suffer the most economic damage if we were to leave the EU, not Britain.

      And when has demanding the right to self-determination and border control been wanting “special treatment” ?

      You are speaking as though Britain has always been politically tied to the European mainland. We haven’t. An independent and free Britain sacrificed her blod and material wealth to save the Europeans from themselves. The only special treatment we want from them now is to mind their own business.
      .

    • Theodoxia

      Is it really “petty nationalism” to want a restoration of the sovereignty of our own elected parliament, and release from the tyranny of an overmighty, undemocratic and corrupt super-state?

      • Conway

        Considering that our MEPs, of whatever persuasion, have failed time and again to block unwanted EU legislation, having the final say over the laws we have to obey is long overdue.

    • SimonToo

      Do you believe in fairies?

      Since when has a general feeling that it would be nice if things were a bit better ever achieved substantial change?

    • Lady Magdalene

      We’re not trying to raise the drawbridge.
      We want to reassert our Inependence; regain our Sovereignty and then reform our Democracy so that a small cabal of political elite will never again be able to control it in their interests, not ours.
      A Sovereign, independent UK would be free to govern itself and trade with the whole world ….. something we did in the memory of anyone over the age of 40.

      • http://www.brandaware.co.uk/ Paddy Briggs

        When 27 nations of varying cultures and history agree on something, and one disagrees you don’t solve any problems by bowing to the one. It isn’t going to happen.

        • foxoles

          Did the French, Dutch and Irish ‘No to Lisbon’ pass you by?

          • http://www.brandaware.co.uk/ Paddy Briggs

            I seem to recall that when I was at School if I was the only one in a class of 28 making trouble then it was me who was the problem not the rest of the boys…

            • foxoles

              Trouble is, to use your analogy, many of the other boys are ‘making trouble’ too.

              • http://www.brandaware.co.uk/ Paddy Briggs

                They are, but they are not threatening to throw their satchels over their backs and stamp out of the classroom.

                • Tony_E

                  The problem with your analogy Paddy, is that you disregard right and wrong and accept the idea that just because a majority of the elites across the EU go along with something therefore it is the British that are somehow simply out of step.

                  What you don’t take into account is that the root cause of most of the EU’s problems are self inflicted. The austerity is inflicted upon the south because it suits the north and Germany. Increasing social welfare legislation is inflicted upon economically under developed states so that they cannot compete against the already strong ones. Energy and green legislation is simply a power grab to the centre, and is slowly strangling EU competitiveness in global markets. Free movement of peoples was supposed to restrict wage growth for multinationals, while creating labour shortages in developing states, forcing the economies towards wage parity and therefore as single economic policy.

                  Nobody but the British will stand up for the British. Our elites are one breed, they are not us, or of us, or concerned primarily with us, at an EU level.

                • http://www.brandaware.co.uk/ Paddy Briggs

                  The EU is far from perfect, but it is an astonishing achievement and we in Britain can be proud of having played our part in creating it. I now want us to play our part in reforming it. We won’t do that if, uniquely among the member nations, we threaten withdrawal.

                • ManOfKent

                  Oh you stupid fool There will be no reform (how many time do the Brussels bureaucrats need to say it?) to this country’s satisfaction. They will persist with ever closer union until it brings about their destruction and a good number of member nations with it.

                  No wonder Putin is getting belligerent again. Like a vulture scanning a dying herd of Wildebeest he’s just deciding which one of Russia’s former colonies he will pick off first when the EU collapses…..

                • http://www.brandaware.co.uk/ Paddy Briggs

                  I really don’t think that you add anything to your “argument” , such as it is, by throwing abuse at those who disagree with you. You may regard me as a “Stupid Fool” – I regard your views as not just stupid and foolish but blindly ignorant. What sort of person you are I’ve no idea. And, frankly, I don’t care.

                • ManOfKent

                  Ouch I’m wounded to my soul. After such a fatuous and hollow response I have just one further question when you wrote that post did you stick your tongue out when you pressed post?

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …yes and I believe he stuck his thumbs in his ears and wiggled his fingers at you, too.

                • http://www.brandaware.co.uk/ Paddy Briggs

                  I see why you choose to hide behind anonymity.

                • Alexsandr

                  go and live in another country then. It is beyond help IMHO.

                • Tony_E

                  If I genuinely thought it could be reformed I might be with you. However, having read my history I understand what the EU is – and what it seeks to become (as was always its intent).

                  It intends to end the nation state and to remove popular democracy. The originators saw people like Hitler as the result of populist full franchise democratic processes – and they swore to remove that chance from the European demos. They took a similar view to Thatcher, that she was the extreme, a result of a poor economy and populism to a poorly educated mass.

                  But actually, the EU would do very well to survive without us if we were to be successful outside it, because it would deconstruct the lie that is at the heart of the Union itself – that individual nation states can no longer survive in the globalised world.

            • ManOfKent

              One can understand that you were a problem at school.

            • Wessex Man

              What do you think about the Anti-EU parties advance in the Saxony Elections Paddy?

        • ManOfKent

          Ah yes the ‘mob rule’ theory……

        • Lady Magdalene

          I’m not expecting the 27 to bow down to the UK. They can continue with their exercise in recreating the USSR … it will eventually face the same fate as the original.
          I just want out.

        • Alexandrovich

          ” There is general agreement among most of the EU members that there is a
          need to rethink the relationship between member countries and the Union
          as a whole.”
          “When 27 nations of varying cultures and history agree on something, and
          one disagrees you don’t solve any problems by bowing to the one”
          Which is it?

    • WatTylersGhost

      The reason for 60 years of European peace is not the EU but NATO

    • ManOfKent

      Let’s , for a moment, put Britain’s interests rather than Party politics to the fore

      Are you going to stop posting then?

      • http://www.brandaware.co.uk/ Paddy Briggs

        Gosh that’s funny ! What a wit. It could be Dear Oscar.

    • ButcombeMan

      The Referendum Pledge does not of itself, suggest that the UK will demand special treatment,

      The EU will need to sort itself out. it has time. As you correctly say, there is some agreement about the flaws.

      The UK is well able to survive outside the EU .

      You putting “NOT” in capitals is meaningless waffle.

      If you have evidence or rational argument that Britain could not survive outside the EU, put forward your argument and your evidence.

      .

  • alabenn

    Cameron has to choose between being liked by our European rulers or being liked by the people of this country, Heath choose the latter.
    An obscure woman came out of nowhere and filleted him for his general flabbiness, The same will happen to Cameron regardless of whether he wins, his party is becoming devoutly Eurosceptic and after the 2015 election it will be certain to have a larger contingent of, out at any cost candidates, he will have to change his position, he has to do it now, just to ensure they are not destroyed at the ballot box.
    The majority of people might not vote to leave, but the vast majority of people who would vote for the Conservatives will, if he cannot see that he is dead in the water.

  • @PhilKean1

    .
    Good. We need to put an end to this shameful deceit against the British people.

    However, the Polish Prime Minister has given British patriots yet another reason to worry.

    “It is unthinkable that Britain would leave the EU”

    Yes, unthinkable for him and many other Europeans who seem to regard Britain as their property – but NOT unthinkable for those of us who remember how much better things were when the British people lived in a free and democratic country.

    But here’s the worry. The Polish PM is just another in a long line of EU leaders who have made this statement. And we know that David Cameron engages with them in talks that the rest of us are not privy to.

    The fear that they are planning to do whatever it takes to prevent Britain leaving the EU is very real.
    .

    • telemachus

      Whatever it takes will be worthwhile
      *
      I have a terror that the little englanders have far too much to say in all this
      To the great detriment of my children and future children
      *
      The only light in all this is the current split in the right and the 43 Tory marginals to be delivered to Labour next May
      *
      We are at a turning point and must turn back from the decline that Carswell and mates wish to inflict

      • Colonel Mustard

        You should not use the term “little englanders” to describe those who dissent from EU orthodoxy. It is offensive and in the context of your propaganda could be construed as incitement to racial hatred.

        I have an equal terror that the likes of you and your “European socialist project” friends have too much to say in all this to the great detriment of my children and future children.

        • Kaine

          “In faith, for little England / You’d venture an emballing: I myself would for Carnarvonshire”

      • ManOfKent

        As ever those on the left demonstrate they have no faith in the British people or this country to succeed on its own or indeed demonstrate any desire to succeed at all. But there again they have always despised the British people.

        Instead they prefer to prostrate themselves to oligarchical Eurotrash wallowing in a cesspit of ever of corruption, growing decline and mediocrity that Euroserfdom will bring.

        Instead of doing the honourable thing and leaving the country for Brussels taking their children with them, they must force their deranged venal vision on everyone they can ensuring as many suffer as possible. With such rapists of democracy ‘No’ never means ‘No’.

        So it has always been and so it always will be

        • Kaine

          Feel free to leave. Kent is nearly in France anyway.

          • Wessex Man

            I’d rather it were you!

            • Kaine

              Make me.

              • Wessex Man

                What apart from all your other idiotic comments you want a pretend fight now? you imbecile!

                • Kaine

                  You’re the one that said you wanted me to leave the country. You seem to lack the courage of your convictions. Also, capital letters at the start of sentences darling. X

      • Kitty MLB

        Wasp.I’ve just put down my feather and ink of which I
        were using to write just to say. This Tory lady of which
        you….Oh never mind.Just stop saying ‘Little England’
        its somewhat belittling, the correct terminology is
        Great Britain.

      • Alexsandr

        do you not respect the will of the people. Do you not think yiou can make a coherant argument for europe?
        Well we already know the answers to those questions, and for you, telytubby, is a resounding NO

      • WatTylersGhost

        When your grand kids are subject to Sharia law in little England, I hope that they can look back on their garand daddy’s words and then hold you to account.

        • Nic Walmsley

          Why would you single that out, when things like TPP are actually happening now, and would have as dramatic an impact on traditional freedoms?

      • Inverted Meniscus

        Which means you will just about break even after losing 41 Scottish seats.

      • Inverted Meniscus

        As opposed to the rancid filth and corruption of socialism which the Fascist Labour Party seeks to impose.

      • Zionist lackey

        Poor telemachus. He should be more concerned about his children and grandchildren if we venture wholesale into a federal Europe. For then democracy would be dead. European Federalism means the demise of democracy. But perhaps this is what he wants for his children?

        I don’t know; but telemachus appears to be somewhat disjointed in what he seeks. Does he believe in democracy as the best, if not wisest form of government for his children or not? If so then abandon European Federalism which seeks, and what is referred to in parts of the EU a post-democratic age.

        • global city

          You do not need democracy on the path to the sunlit uplands

      • The Masked Marvel

        Your party used the “little englanders” epithet to protect rapists and demonize those who spoke out. Your words have no meaning. We do not hear them.

    • ScaryBiscuits

      Britain leaving the EU is unthinkable in the same way as it was unthinkable for German forces to retreat from Stalingrad.
      I have long worried that it will be impossible for Britain to leave the EU without them trying everything, including force, to stop us.

      • saffrin

        We’ll have to fight the ba*tads to get back what is ours I guarantee it.
        It will take more than an EU exit to scrape the Spanish fishing fleets off our waters.

      • Nic Walmsley

        I don’t know what you are dipping your biscuits in, but the use by date has probably passed.

        • ScaryBiscuits

          Nic, Did you go on a special course to learn to be rude, or does it come naturally?

    • edward

      My fear is that it is likely that Miliband will get in next year by default and will then sign new treaties making it harder to exit from the EU even if a referendum is called.

      • Alexandrovich

        In the final analysis, treaties are just bits of paper; they can be torn up. Then watch individual European countries squabble over why they should still be allowed to export to us.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          Yes, and these Russian sanctions are the model for that squabbling. The natives are getting restless at the EUSSR over those sanctions.

      • Mynydd

        Do you not realise that before a new treaty, thereby transferring new power to the EU, there must be by law, (supported by Mr Miliband) a referendum. Please keep up to date.

        • Colonel Mustard

          Clearly you have no idea how European regulations work.

          From 1960 to 1969 the highest number of statutory instruments enacted in a year was 113.

          From 1970 to 1979 it was 1,419

          From 1980 to 1989 it was 1,558

          From 1990 to 2000 it was 2,073

          From 2000 to 2009 it was 2,285

          From 2010 to date under a coalition that promised to stop the introduction of unnecessary laws and regulations it is:-

          3,327

          UK General Public Acts have shown a decrease since 2010 but at 33 are still well above the 1910-1948 norm. Part of the reason is that politicians and civil servants (and Eurocrats) know that it easier to enact statutory instruments without scrutiny.

          We have a legislature that is projectile vomiting laws and regulations. They just can’t stop because they think it is the answer to everything. And the EU just adds to the output.

          • Yoru

            Referendums and negotiated exits are one way, but
            not the only way.

            We could apply unilateral amendments to the
            European Communities Act 1972, which is the instrument that accedes
            and enable EU law. Other EU nations have similar legislation, but
            unlike the UK they make more effective use of amendments to achieve
            exceptions, whilst we are almost unique in accepting almost
            everything that the EU throws at us.

            The nuclear option of a complete repeal was also
            tried in 2010 but failed. But there is no reason why we should not
            include specific amendments that exclude specific EU legislation.

            The EU could object, but any action they might
            take would have to be unanimous.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Communities_Act_1972_%28UK%29

            • Colonel Mustard

              Thanks for that. That might be a better debate for our politicians than sceptic vs phile and withdrawal vs federation.

              Someone might raise the question “Why do we rubber stamp so much?” and enact UK law to deal with it. Which would reduce the polarisation somewhat. The apparent reluctance to do so is puzzling.

        • Paul Hughes

          It actually has to be a “significant transfer of sovereignty” in order to trigger the referendum.

          Every move made by the EU has been dressed up as a “tidying exercise”. The wriggle room for sophists is considerable.

          We are losing sovereignty by salami slicing.

          • global city

            Exactly. How long is a significant piece of string?

        • Wessex Man

          On the 1st of November the Uk is due to hand over another 43 areas governance including 35 covering Legal and justice under the terms of the Lisbon Treaty.

          At the Tory conference of 2011 David Cameron promised such action would trigger a Referendum! I wonder how Cameron will squeeze it in, or is it just more soundbite government?

        • John Clegg

          “Mynydd”- Do you honestly believe any of them will volunteer to give us a referendum. If I remember, the actual wording said “significant new powers to the EU’, in other words our devious politicians can easily pretend that new transfers don’t amount to anything significant.

          You must be much more trusting than I am if you believe what you’ve just written.

          • global city

            remember, the Lisbon treaty was explained away as a mere tidying exercise.

    • Bob Dawkins

      Well said! UKIP ALL THE WAY!

  • Kitty MLB

    Well dear Isobel, if Labour benight our politics next May there
    will be a stygian gloom upon all our lips.No reforms (regardless
    of the speed, or lack of it).I believe the referendum should be brought forward..as its a boil that needs lancing and frankly although I want us to leave, I am utterly bored with the subject.
    And to be quite honest in the real world, I never hear people
    mention the wretched EU. But I suppose it keeps the newspapers
    busy.

  • pobinr

    The EU needs renaming to URINE
    The Undemocratic Republic in Europe
    What are they going to reform?
    Open borders?
    Our £23 billion annual budget contribution?
    Our £77 billion annual EU trade deficit?
    The EU energy policy costing us £18 billion a year?
    The imposition of business and consumer laws on all businesses rather than the 5% of businesses that trade with the EU?
    Setting our own trade treaties?
    Setting our own foreign policy?
    The loss of influence with Lisbon and the growth of the EU?
    The £12 billion annual cost of EU protectionism on agriculture?
    Loss of our fishing grounds?
    The destruction of our democracy and sovereignty?
    Renegotiation is a lie, therefore a referendum on a renegotiated settlement is a lie, Cameron is lying to Britain.

    • Mynydd

      If the EU is “The Undemocratic Republic of Europe” why is Mr Farage and other members of UKIP sitting in the EU parliament, and using EU money to finance the Party. Talk about being two faced.

      • ManOfKent

        The same reason that the SNP and PC sit in Westminster in an attempt to defend British interests.

        I know Labour discarded any thoughts of defending British interests decades ago but at least you could remember (I realise its been a long time) that that is supposed to be the purpose of your unworthy rabble of misfits in Westminster and Brussels

      • Holly

        I used to spout off the same garbage, and the sad fact is, I too would at one time have wholeheartedly agree with you.
        I now believe Cameron is not planning to do what he is telling us he will, and I know that Labour are utterly lacking on all counts.

        I hope UKIP sweep up all those voters betrayed by Labour, lied to by Labour, and ignored by Labour.
        Remember Mynydd, as we chat, there are a heck of a lot more disgruntled, and angry Labour voters than there were in 2010, and back then Labour had their worst result in years.

        Many of Labour’s usual voters would find it a betrayal to vote for Conservatives, but the hop, by working class Labour voters, from Labour to UKIP will be an easy one for many to take.

        • Mynydd

          Of course all this shows up in the opinion polls, which give Labour a higher percentage of the vote, than that they achieved in 2010.

          • Wessex Man

            er that was before Rotherham, Manchester and Glasgow!

          • the viceroy’s gin

            They’ll take-in much of the 2010 Lib Dumb vote, which is set to collapse, but they are going to lose much of their core vote to UKIP, as mentioned above.

            Lab is soiling their trousers right now over UKIP. They should be.

          • saffrin

            Fat chance.
            Too many people know Labour are happy to see the daughters of their constituents raped, again and again, and again and again…
            Too busy spining their multiculti see.

      • Inverted Meniscus

        Farage has never concealed his utter contempt for the Fascist EU and is doing his best to destroy it from within. He is also trying to preserve British interests something the Britain hating filth of the Fascist Labour Party would never do so consumed are they with a hatred of themselves and an even greater hatred of the British people. Why else do you think those Labour Party fascists sought to destroy this country with multiculturalism.

      • Zionist lackey

        To help bring it to an end of course. Without Ukip the European parliament would have no opposition, an therefore could not consider itself a truly functioning democracy. Ukip is the rot in the EU timber and long may it flourish

      • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

        The EU needs renaming to URINE

        Yep, taking the p-i-s-s…or keeping the p-i-s-s as they keep trying to tell us they do.

      • saffrin

        Nigel exposes the EU for what it is.
        He laughs at them. If you’re worried about the piddly amount UKIP MEP’s get in ‘allowances’ what do you think about the fact Brussels has been hiding its spending for over seventeen years and counting?
        EUSSR mate. Can’t trust those troughers.

      • Fred Smith

        Changing the system from within.

        Champagne socialists I knew told me they were doing that, although I had doubts. When it comes to Farage, what’s sauce for the goose and all that.

  • anyfool

    It looks likely for this to run out of control, Cameron probably has until the day after the bye election to produce a binding and concise list of what he will renegotiate.
    Bland rubbish will not do.
    Obfuscations, like do not tie the hands of the negotiators, will not do, he cannot be trusted and that is down to him, he has put the EU before his party, his party think the EU is bad for the country, he better change or he will have to go.

    • Nicholas I

      ” he has put the EU before his party” and his tribe before everything

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