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We may not think ourselves at war with ISIS but they are pretty sure they are at war with us.

12 August 2014

3:26 PM

12 August 2014

3:26 PM

John McTernan’s column in today’s Telegraph about Kurdistan – and our, that is the West’s, debt of honour to the Kurds – is a piece of which, I think, the late Christopher Hitchens would have been proud. The Kurds had no greater western defender than Christopher and he would, I believe, have been appalled by the pusillanimity on display in Whitehall and the White House alike in recent days.

Granted, ‘because Christopher Hitchens would have supported it’ is an insufficient justification for military action. Then again, the witless self-abasement of the so-called Stop the War coalition is no reason to oppose it either. (By Stop the War, of course, they mean let someone vile win the war.)

Nevertheless, some lessons can be absorbed too thoroughly. Why bother? It’s not our fight. Let them sort it out themselves. We’ve been down this road before and look where it led. And, besides, this is all our fault anyway.

Well, maybe. But just as conflicts differ so do interventions. No-one proposes deploying the 101st Airborne Division or the Royal Marines to Kurdistan. All that interventionists suggest is that we help create the conditions in which ISIS can first be halted, then routed. The hardest work will be done by others, chiefly, though far from exclusively the Kurdish Peshmerga.

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Make no mistake, we may not consider ourselves at war with ISIS but they most assuredly reckon themselves at war with us. And with anyone else who does not share their murderous corruption of Islam. The world has rarely been short on horror but there is something especially horrifying about ISIS. If heads on pikes won’t convince you, what would be enough to persuade you this is an evil that must be confronted? And if not confronted today it will have to be confronted eventually. Because these are not people and this is not a worldview that will be content to carve out territory and then, once it has established its base, live quietly and peacefully ever after.

In the end, all the wrangling about cause and effect and who started what and who is to blame this or that becomes a form of dissembling dithering. In the end we are responsible. Not so much on account of the unforeseen consequences of past blunders but because we – the United States and its NATO allies – have the power, the equipment and the opportunity to do something about it.

And if we have that capability but choose not to use it against an enemy of unquestionable evil then the consequences of that inaction will be grim. Firstly, and most importantly, for the peoples – Christian, Yazidi and Muslim alike – threatened by ISIS but also, secondarily, for our own idea of ourselves. All that talk of ‘values’ will be proven nonsense. Worse, we’ll have abandoned our interests too.

At present we offer gestures in place of real action. We seem prepared to countenance only the barest minimum. According to the Times, ‘Despite making the 700-mile flight from Cyprus, the second of two aid drops was aborted on Sunday night because Yazidi families desperate for help crowded on to a drop zone, creating fears that a pallet, dropped by parachute, might have killed someone.’ If accurate, there is something hideously self-regarding about such weakness. They ask for so little and we are too nervous to even give them that.

As McTernan saysWhat, dissenters ask, is the end-game? The answer is more straightforward than is sometimes implied: the defeat of jihadism. Such clarity is, naturally, deeply unfashionable. Be that as it may, it remains necessary. And right. 

Eliminating ISIS is not enough to bring peace to the Middle East but peace cannot come unless ISIS is eliminated. It is possible that arming the Kurds properly and bombing ISIS forces wherever we find them might make matters worse. But doing nothing certainly will. Doing nothing in an arena in which we can do something and in which we might even be morally obliged to do something is both a counsel of despair and evidence of a kind of insouciant decadence.

Perhaps we cannot intervene everywhere but where we can we should surely do what we can. Especially when the costs of doing so are so relatively minor. To the extent ISIS are reminiscent of anyone they make me think of the Croatian Ustashe whose enthusiasm for slaughter astonished and appalled even blood-happy veterans of the Waffen-SS. The Ustashe mantra during WW2 was, you will remember, kill a third, convert a third, expel a third. We are seeing this again, this time on the plains and mountains of northern Iraq.

Unless we act – and do so with more than words and bottles of water – we will bear some fresh responsibility for the reaping that will follow our inaction. Why us? Because there is no-one else.

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Show comments
  • PastImperfect

    Good points, though:

    ‘…the Kurds are driving out Sunni Arabs, whom they accuse of being Islamic State supporters. Those Arabs who flee are seen as demonstrably in league with the enemy: those who stay are suspected of belonging to ‘sleeper cells’, waiting their moment to strike. The Kurds say that they and their ancestors have lived in the area around Tal Abyad for twenty thousand years; the Arabs, they maintain, are recently arrived settlers, beneficiaries of a Baath Party campaign in the 1970s to establish a nine-mile-wide Arab Belt along the border. Arabs who are now being evicted from their homes say the Kurds are telling them to ‘go back to the desert’.

    and

    ‘Faraj asked him why he had joined Islamic State and Abu Abbas replied that he had been imprisoned by the Kurdistan Regional Government for four years without a fair trial. ‘Corruption and torture,’ Faraj said, ‘had pushed him to find any organisation that gives him the opportunity for taking revenge. Our emir’s pain was similar to ours. We all fight as a reaction to the tyranny and injustice we had known before. Islamic State is the best option for oppressed people in the Middle East.’’

  • Gary Grecko

    If any person chooses to display thr ISIS flag, then they should be treated like the enemy that they are, either arrested as a prisoner of war or shot if they put up a fight……simple. I’m sick to death of gutless Political so called leaders who give these faceless cowards to much time to get organised and time to plot against us. If we don’t take them on now then when we finally do it will be too late, how much do we have to put up with, how many people are we going to let them kill ? It doesn’t matter what country they are in, this is a global problem and the world must unite to finally get rid of this cancer. Two world wars was enough, at least the Natzis Had the balls to show their faces. These cowards hide in suers like rats, it’s time to unite people, take them head on in your area, don’t let them live or be made welcome where you live, if they Fly the Flag then they are the enemy and should be treated as such.

  • uwannaknow

    Isis thinks that the west is soft….not battle hardened. ..not willing to fight. They can think that while we blow their cowardly, covered heads clean off their stinking flea infested bodies. Red mist is much easier to clean up afterwards as opposed to a bunch of disgusting heads lying around. Show us your faces here in the United States and you won’t have one coward BASTARDS!

  • Al

    “The answer is more straightforward than is sometimes implied: the defeat of jihadism.” So the ‘war on terror’ in other words. Are you trying to be provocative or are you simply a fool?

    What do you suppose western militaries do more than they are doing now (i.e arming the Kurds, providing air and special forces support)? IS and their Equivalency have been around for a while – to date they have been more occupied with fighting their immediate enemies than waging terror attacks on the west. Don’t see why that will change much in the future.

  • Augustus

    “Their murderous corruption of Islam” is plainly depicted on their black flag, namely the Shahada, which is the universal creed of Islam. i.e.’There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is His messenger’.

  • Ed Van Zyl

    We did the same thing with the NAZIS we waited and waited until world war was inevitable. We make the mistake of thinking they are not a power ISIS as they do not have a government or an “army” but the third world war will be a guerrilla war fought by terrorists hidden as civilians and fought behind the cover of civilians. It will not be a war fought with regular armies in uniforms. Why do you think they cover their identities.

  • sebastian2

    ‘… murderous corruption of islam…”? Well ………… let’s see: beheading male prisoners who refuse to convert? Original islam did that. Desecrating others’ holy sites? Original islam did that. Abducting women for use as forced wives, slaves or concubines? Original islam did that. Rapid and brutal expansion? Original islam did that. Appropriation of property and resources (weapons and oil in IS’ case)? Original islam did that. Slavish idolatry of the alleged “prophet”? Original islam was all about that. Seems to me that IS is actually pretty close to mohammedism as it was originally conceived and practiced. IS is not corrupting it all. They are living it: the “real” islam. And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the “perfect” doctrine; the perfect creed; the perfect and final revelation. As recited. As eventually written. This is what mohammedans will tell you. This is what IS acts out. But look at it! Look at it and don’t believe it.

  • Gregory Mason

    ‘corruption of Islam’

    Haha, nice try. We’re not that stupid.

  • Mikebert

    There is no need to defeat ISIS completely. Providing air support to the Peshmerga should be enough for them to drive ISIS out of their territory. The Peshmerga has demonstrated competence in the past, they are worth helping.
    If we do that we force ISIS to go elsewhere. They came from the west. South or east will bring them into conflict with Iran. Do you really think ISIS can conquer Iran?
    Maybe the need to fight ISIS will make the Iranians more eager to strike a nuke deal so as to restore their economy.

  • Doug_Thomson

    And if the Western nations don’t wake up, this is going to be a very serious war. Odd that we condemn Israel, our ally and the only lamp of freedom in the Middle East, but sit back while a mirderous horror gains strength. Insanity.

  • pedestrianblogger

    We should, with the utmost single-mindedness, pursue our own interests. If the Kurds don’t defeat these savages today, we will be fighting them tomorrow. Therefore, we should be supplying the Peshmerga with whatever they ask of us (we can afford it) and we should be obliterating, from the air (we can afford it), anything resembling an ISIS column.

  • Bob339

    So Alex Massie will be the first to leap into the fray? Or will it be overworked underpaid Tommy Atkins AGAIN?!

  • Coleridge1

    So called leftists such as Owen Jones, Galloway, Livingstone, Miliband, Pilger, Seamus Milne, Alan Rusbridger, the Guardian etc who refuse to condemn the islamofascist Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PA etc are not part of the left they are fascists.

    • JB_1966

      A massive part of the left IS fascist.

    • jjjj

      You forgot the fragrant (lol) Lindsey German.

  • Bob-B

    As I understand it, ISIS moves around in large convoys. As Saddam Hussein discovered in 1991, air power can do terrible things to a large convoy:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_Death

    A repeat would not come amiss.

  • excel

    Are the Kurds still fighting ISIS? Not much sign of that on the Google News digest.

  • Trofim

    “murderous corruption of Islam”? No, Islam, as stipulated in the Quran.

  • Someone

    Nail. Head.

    It also serves to demonstrate the folly of Obama’s troop withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan when neither are strong enough to defend themselves from this kind of barbarism.

    Even when you dance around the subject matter to produce beautiful and sweeping rhetorical pirouettes you arrive back at this point. However smashed up the place was under Saddam, we broke it further. We broke it – we own it. We barely finished sweeping up the pieces before handing it to Maliki who has showed over 8 years he is consistently unable to build strong alliances across sectarian divides and in some cases, has helped entrench them.

    Stick boots back on the ground and stay there to complete the mission we began. Ditto Afghanistan. Unpopular? Yes. But at least it has the semblance of ‘right’ about it.

  • vieuxceps2

    Your view is too parochial,confined as it it is to Iraq and Kurdistan. After we’ve bombed Isis into extinction, what do you think will be the reaction of he muslims in London,Birmingham,Leicester , Slough et al to the defeat of their acclaimed Islamic force? Will we not have to endure terrorist attacks because of our involvement. I write this in no cowardly vein,but we have put ourselves into a position where our own”citizens” care more for the enemy at war with us than they do for “their” country.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Unfortunately this will happen. Islamists only respected a ‘truce’ with GB until Afghanistan. The price of quiet on the home front was our non-intervention against jihadists. Returning jihadists who’ve said that they will be peaceful will change their minds if we fight ISIS. So either our foreign policy must be dictated by muslim radicals, or we prevent ISIS fighters from returning to the UK.

  • Tony_E

    A very naive article, and a dangerous tactical error in the making.

    Getting further involved in Iraq will not benefit the area or us. The real problem in Iraq is their government, which has been weak and sectarian. The army has not united behind the government and had it done so it certainly had the resources to repel the ISIS invasion. The limited response of the USA to protect certain minorities and to supply aid (with British assistance) is the most we should do.

    Iran has now backed the new nominee for PM in Iraq, Maliki is not going to resist this pressure and he will now fade in to the background. This will hopefully allow the Iraqi army to regroup around strong political leadership and with the backing of Iran they will retake control.

    Arming the Kurds will not stabilise the situation. They are capable of just as much violence as any of the other factions in the middle east, given the resources. Arming them to to the teeth will just move the balance of power again and cause further trouble as they use that power to further their own territorial ambitions.

    We intervened in Libya to ‘prevent bloodshed’. Our intervention did not achieve this – it simply delayed the bloodshed and changed the victims. The middle east will have to redraw its own boundaries – (the Arabs are not accustomed to having any boundaries at all, they are purely a Western construct), and stability will only be found through strength and might.

  • swatnan

    Funny how most of Iraqs oilfields are in Kurdistan.
    Arm the Kurds will be like arming the rebels in Syria and Libya and Mujehedin, eventually they’ll turn on you. And also like arming the Israelis. We’re just creating problems for the future.

    • jjjj

      No they won’t turn against us. You know nothing about the Kurds or the Israeli situation for that matter.

  • evad666

    read Nick Cohen’s wonderful book Whats Left.
    The Left is supporting Taqiyya

  • NotYouNotSure

    Reading so many comments here, its as if many have come from a time machine ten years ago. The same people that want more war in Iraq probably supported the ouster of Saddam, since you were wrong then you are probably wrong now. ISIS is not even a threat to Iran or Turkey, so its utterly ludicrous that they are about to become a threat to Britain.

    • Augustus

      Funny how appeasers, for that is what you are, seem to think that the crocodile will eat them last, or not at all. Wake up! They are already ‘a threat to Britain’. Radical Islamists are already creating separatist educational and religious institutions. Their schools and mosques are already directed by ‎jihadists, and frequently financed by Wahhabi fanatics. Europe is already experiencing hate crimes, and thousands have flocked to fight alongside jihadi terrorists including ISIS. Tough governmental decisive action all across Europe is required. Smoke out the extremists and mullahs and send them packing, Close down extremist institutions, and practice zero tolerance towards riots and lawlessness. ‎

      • jjjj

        I wouldn’t bother with him/her. This ‘nothing to see here’ attitude is the cry of utter despair from an idiot who is merely annoyed that the public are being ‘distracted’ from Gaza. They couldn’t give a toss about Christians or moderate Muslims. They are like the appeasers of 1939. There were posters for ISIS in Oxford St. yesterday. Where was the police?

  • Damaris Tighe

    One of the aid drops was aborted because Yazidis had congregated on the drop zone “creating fears that a pallet, dropped by parachute, might have killed someone”: is this some twisted interpretation by the air force of ‘elf & safety’? What madness in a life & death situation. I really do despair of what we have become: bureaucratic & risk-averse. I can’t imagine the pilots making drops over occupied France for the partisans in WW2 saying “look chaps, someone might get hit on the head by a radio, let’s abort”.

    • https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/home Dean Jackson

      A more appropriate analogy would be cancelling the Berlin air drops because people were on the ground at the drop zone. What this proves is that we’re also being lied to concerning the United States’ air strikes. The air strikes are killing few Islamic State, but are inflicting heavy casualties on Kurds.

  • mattghg

    “their murderous corruption of Islam”

    Uhhh…

    • https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/home Dean Jackson

      Why the surprise? Only Western-created Islamic combatants kill civilians, as tasked by the USSR & allies.

  • https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/home Dean Jackson

    Notice that no one is asking where did Islamic Sate come from? Where did all those trucks they have come from? Where was the Iraqi Air Force last December and January that could have picked off the long columns of Islamic State columns driving south in broad daylight. Who told Islamic State they could drive south in broad daylight and not be wiped out? Ah, I said driving south, meaning Islamic State came from Turkey! Turkey, you say in surprise. Where else, unless Allah spirited Islamic State into northern Iraq, replete with arms, training and transportation.

    So why is the United States training Islamic State at its air base in southern Turkey* and sending them into Iraq and Syria to cause chaos, you ask? Because that’s the policy the still existing USSR tasked its agents in Washington, DC to implement. Why? To (1) further weaken the prominence of the United States in the eyes of the world, where chaos follows whatever the United States touches; and (2) further weaken the United States Armed Forces via a never-ending “War on Terror”, which will now have to re-deploy to Iraq.

    —————————
    *Incirlik Air Base

  • Simon_in_London

    “In the end we are responsible. Not so much on account of the unforeseen consequences of past blunders but because we – the United States and its NATO allies – have the power, the equipment and the opportunity to do something about it.”

    No, we – our leaders – are _responsible_ only and entirely because our actions in Iraq and Syria created ISIS in the first place. I support bombing ISIS and arming the Kurds so they can stand against our weapons that ISIS took from the Iraqi army. But it must never be forgotten that this is our fault, that this is what happens when you engage in ‘humanitarian intervention’ in the Middle East.

    • Augustus

      One certainly has to feel for those solders who gave their lives there. Many relatives must now be questioning the end result of their efforts in Iraq.

    • Lamashtar

      No, it isn’t. If that were the battle cry, I’d oppose any action, whatsoever. People must take responsibility for their own actions. The religious fanatics took the money and weapons they were offered by the oil magnates and did just what they wanted with it.

      Don’t be so craven! All solutions come with new problems. The only reason to take military action in Iraq is if we want to stop evil. ISIS is so cartoonishly evil I’d believe they were created in a superhero movie–if they weren’t so obviously the militant wing of Saudi extremists, just as Al Qaeda was.

  • andy_gill

    “they most assuredly reckon themselves at war with us. And with anyone else who does not share their murderous corruption of Islam.”

    If it is a “murderous corruption of Islam”, why aren’t Muslims in the UK and Europe protesting against it? They are pretty quick off the mark when it comes to cartoons.

    The answer is of course they don’t see what ISIS are doing as a disgrace to Islam at all.

    • CO Jones

      Precisely; that is why somewhere upwards of 1,000 British muslims have joined ISIS, because they agree with the cause and the methods used.

  • Mike

    The threat from Germany expansionalism pre 1938 was not that apparent and understandably after WWI Europe didn’t want to engage in another war, but war came and the rest was history

    However, ISIS and other Islamofascist groups are a very clear threat to world peace and we’re not just talking about the Middle East here. They have very specific stated aims to destroy us unlike Germany prior to 1939 and we’d be foolish not to heed them and do something about it now before similar groups pop up from within our communities. We’ve already had more than our our fair share of hate mongers like Chowdary but the ‘progressives’ in the media and establishment are either blind to it or actively promoting Islamofascism by their inaction. This censorship of the evils of extreme Islam will be the death of all of us whilst we let these ‘progressives’ in the media spread lies and propoganda about their so called religion of peace.

    There is NOTHING about this religion that is in anyway endearing whether its their aim to exterminate all Jews and then come for un-believers or their treatment of women where a woman raped has to have 4 men to verify it happened when they probably took part. Enforced marriages for 10 year old girls, murder of daughters that rebel from enforced marriage, demands for their own laws, no go areas for non Muslims, torching places of worship, stoning for adulterers, the list is endless of the barbaric customs this culture/religion demands.

    Many apologists try to make the case that the Christian Bible is full of directives to chastise or worse non-believers as an attempt to excuse the Koran for having similar directives. That may be the case but thye real difference is that Christians have moral guidance built into their psyche that allows us to dismiss any ancient barbaric practice the Bible might promote. With Islam, there’s far more ancient barbaric practices but for their uneducated masses, there is no moral compass insiden their heads guiding them to see what is right or wrong in their scriptures. They blindly follow what their religious leaders tell them and genocide is the result.

    This war of cultures is coming to a head whatever the spineless leaders in the west think or the ‘progressives’ that have led us to this place. We have a simple choice, either pull up the drawbridge and build a DMZ buffer zone between Islamic countries and the west whilst cracking down on our own extremists or go in and crush the psychos right now.

    Waiting and dithering is not an option.

    • Damaris Tighe

      The Christian Bible is indeed often used to excuse the Koran, but this tactic displays complete ignorance of Christianity which takes the gospels as normative, not the OT. That’s why there is the NEW Testament. The British have become pagans & don’t understand their own religious roots.

      • Pat Conway

        Christians have to avoid the minefield of barbaric practices and laws that are found in the Bible.

        • CO Jones

          Whatever the possible excesses commited in the name of Christianity some centuries ago is no excuse for what the muslims are perpetrating today, in the 21st century.

          • Pat Conway

            I completely agree. That is why religion is the root cause of so much hatred.

        • Andy

          Yes the Gospels are full of exhortations to behead people and rape women.

          • Pat Conway

            Genocide, infanticide, ethnic cleansing, slavery, stoning, rape, child and animal sacrifice, incest, subjugation of women. It’s all there in your holy book the Bible.

            • Damaris Tighe

              Christianity is based on the Gospels, not the Old Testament. That’s why they’re in the NEW Testament. Can you not read? If you’re going to troll convos about Christianity, do try and educate yourself about it.

              • Pat Conway

                Regardless, Christians always cherry-pick the bits that suit them. Hatred and persecution of homosexuals is one example.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Christianity is based on the Gospels, not the Old Testament. That’s why they’re in the NEW Testament. Can you not read? If you’re going to troll convos about Christianity, do try & educate yourself about it.

      • Mike

        Like many people, although an atheist now I was brought up in a Christian background and was even in the church choir as a kid, but leaving religion behind still left me with the its moral values which I cherish.

        I have nothing against religion personally as I can understand that some need it like a prop to help them get through the day. Thats fine as its between them and their ‘god’ and doesn’t impinge on others rights or way of life. Islam is not a prop to help those in need of assistance, its teachings and the way it is being taught, inspire even worse barbaric behaviour than we ever saw during WWII.

        • Andy

          That’s because Islam is not a religion. It is a political ideology masquerading as a religion.

          I agree with Damaris above. Most people do not understand Christianity anymore. The Gospels are nothing like the Koran, which is an evil hate filled tome.

          • Mike

            Perhaps we need to look at why we have religion in the first place.

            I guess most religions going back thousands of years came about because the people weren’t educated, science wasn’t understood and to explain their existence, they looked around and worshipped things they could see or touch. They couldn’t affect let alone understand the seasons, so there had to be some all powerful entity they believed controlled their lives.

            Purely for the reason of existence and survival, its pretty obvious why early man (and women) worshipped the sun, water or earth as they depended on it. Once surviving the vagaries of the seasons had been ‘tamed’ I guess there was plenty of time for philosophers to emerge and explain things better and begin to structure society. I’d call them the first social engineers on the planet.

            Judaism was probably the first ‘cult’ to create an all powerful being through religion that could be used in a way to ‘manage’ the people to ensure a relatively stable society. The old testament is nothing more than an early guide book to create a self sustaining society with moral guidance being shown through its teachings. Religion & Culture were and still are for Jews, one and the same thing.

            Likewise, Christianity followed a similar path and used its religion with the New Testament as a blue print for its culture and its only recently that they have become seperated by secularism BUT, the moral guidance given in Christianity is still there in the culture it created, just.

            Now we come to Islam. It was born from latter day extremist who rejected all other religions but more specifically the culture which promoted. For its time, there was some semblance of democracy in Judaism and Christianity but that was the problem for the breakaway group that created Islam, they wanted total control not democracy. There’s always been breakaway religious groups and Christianity has many, but so insecure were the proponents of this new Religion/Culture called Islam, they created their own draconian holy book that gave no quarter and still doesn’t today.

            It is my belief that this explains why the Koran is nothing like the Bible (new or old) as it demands the complete adherence to its script under a real penalty of death as opposed to a rhetorical one found in other religions.

            It is of course filled with what we now consider to be hate, racism & bigotry towards women, others not of the faith and is even being used to kill fellow Muslims.

            If only the ‘progressives’ in the media would accept the truth of whats happening but people like that, will never admit they got it wrong.

          • Pat Conway

            Islam is a religion. Their prophet is Muhammad.

            • Andy

              Islam is not a religion: it is a political ideology masquerading as a religion. And Mohammed, the pedophile, was no prophet. He was a bloody thirsty murderer and imperialist. Added to which he was an anti-Christ and Heretic.

              • Damaris Tighe

                One of the reasons Islam so horrifies us is the complete inversion of values.

              • Pat Conway

                So Islam is not one of the three Abrahamic religions?

            • Roger Hudson

              Who sat and dehydrated in a cave during the Arabian summer and ‘saw’ an archangel who dictated the Koran to him ? oh yes?

              • Pat Conway

                And Muhammed flew to heaven on a winged horse, two nudists took dietary advice from a talking snake and Joseph Smith recieved two golden tablets from an ‘angel’…. and people believe that stuff.

                • Damaris Tighe

                  You’ve smuggled in a story which most Christians take as metaphor between two fables taken as literal truth by two completely different religions. I repeat, educate yourself on the religions you troll about before you speak about them. Every time you post you reveal your abject ignorance.

                  In fact you are at least as bigoted as any religious fundamentalist. Your religion is anti-religion & you worship by trolling. You are a missionary for atheism & your mission is ridicule because it makes you feel superior. Absolutely pathetic.

                • Pat Conway

                  Pig ingorant for not sharing your silly beliefs. Most Christians actually believe the Adam and Eve story. Where do you think the concept of sin comes from? It comes from the ‘fall of man’ in the Garden of Eden. You insisted that sin is real. You also ignore the OT which means you don’t believe the creation story. Many believe Noah’s Ark and the global flood.

                  If the Bible is divinely inspired how come there are so many false ideas in the ‘word of god’ about the universe that ‘god’ supposedly created? Why didn’t god make it perfectly clear what he was saying without resorting to metaphors and allegorial stories? Why does an all powerful, supernatural god need mere mortals to speak on his behalf and defend him?

                  Man has worshipped thousands of gods. Why is the Christian god the ‘real’ god? Why not Thor or Zeus, oh hold on I forgot they are mythical gods no different than Yahweh, Allah, or any of the other gods that man worships.

                • Damaris Tighe

                  I suggest you take up courses in theology & biblical criticism to get answers to these questions. Not to convert you but to help you understand exactly what it is you’re opposing. I’m certainly not going to take up the time & vast amount of space needed to answer your post, especially as I know it won’t make one jot of difference to your anti-religion religion.

                  However, this last post of yours was a great improvement on your previous ones, as for the most part it avoids ridicule & straw men. Keep it up.

                • Pat Conway

                  In a post a couple of days ago I asked you to tell me what the punishment for sin is. Since you insist that ‘sin’ is real I want to know the varying degrees of penalties and punishments for sin as opposed to the real world punishments for crime handed down in a court of law. Please tell me.

                • Damaris Tighe

                  I have already replied adequately to this question elsewhere.

                • Pat Conway

                  Unable or unwilling to answer my question on sin and unwilling or unable to tackle some of the questions I posed about the idea of a deity. I could ask hundreds more questions but theists are unable to provide answers.

  • Andrew Morton

    Is the same ISIS that Cameron and Obama wanted to support in Syria? I think we should be told.

    • John Gerard

      Yes, it’s the same ISIS funded by the EU and US, armed and trained at camps in Jordan (ironic, really, considering they’re the next target), to fight Assad.

    • Lamashtar

      I don’t know about Cameron, but Obama has been saying from the start that there were groups the US didn’t want to support. The US has been supporting other groups, though there is some defection. Currently, the moderate rebels are being crushed between Assad and ISIS. I’ve seen some stories that ISIS has sold oil to Assad and there is some collusion.

      The people claiming ISIS is US funded and CIA trained are just the usual anti-Americans, looking to insert their usual tactics.

  • John Gerard

    It is not a “murderous corruption of Islam”. It is perfectly permissible, normal, everyday Islam. They know they are at war with us, because Islam commands them to be in its doctrine.

    It’s very simple.

    • Lost in Space

      I so want to think your wrong but got a horrible feeling that ultimately it becomes their aim to convert or eradicate us.

      • John Gerard

        ‘Jihad’ is defined legally in sunni sharia law as meaning “to wage war against non-muslims. It is etymologically derived from the Arabic ‘mujahad’, meaning ‘to wage war in furtherance of the Religion'”. (from the classic law manual published in the 90s, ‘Umdat al Salik’.). That definition is certified by the Al Azhar University in Cairo, the foremost doctrinal authority in sunni islam. So anyone who wants to dispute that, write to them, not me.

        if you only ever know one thing about islam, let it be this, and you can’t go wrong.

    • vieuxceps2

      Yes, muslims have a Koran-shaped hole where their brains should be.

  • andagain

    The answer is more straightforward than is sometimes implied: the defeat of jihadism.

    The last few years would seem to have demonstrated that we don’t know how to do that.

    • Mike

      We don’t have the courage to do it, thats the real problem.

  • Andy

    Of course we should take action. Now, Today, not Tomorrow or next week or next month. We should help to save these poor people being murdered by these savages.

    What sort of sick b*stard posts a picture of a seven year old child holding up the severed head of a human being ? Just what sickness is this ?? Why can’t the Left, Fascist and Soft, see this for what it is ? And why aren’t Muslims across the globe marching and demonstrating against this evil inhumanity ???

    • MrsDBliss

      “why aren’t Muslims across the globe marching and demonstrating against this evil inhumanity ???”
      Because as, the alleged Isis flag in London housing estate demonstrates, there has been so much kowtowing to vocal and aggressive Muslims in line with diversity agendas that our government have let these people over-run areas where Muslims live. Be honest, if out lived amongst these kind of people would you speak up? I’d be scare to death. I absoluteley believe not all Muslims are like this and our governments have let all decent people down – Muslims and none-Muslims.

      • Tom M

        I suppose you could say all Nazis weren’t like Hitler but we tarred them all with the same brush when push came to shove nonetheless.
        When the jihadists launched their bombing attack on the London Underground they didn’t pause to think that the all citizens of the UK weren’t like Tony Blair.
        What you describe is correct but inconsequential. You belong to the West they belong to Islam. That is and will always be the defining difference in this context.

    • rw

      The photograph is a clear message. ISIS is telling the West what to expect. There is no cognitive dissonance in the minds of ISIS jihadis. They are wired completely different than Westerns.

  • Blindsideflanker

    I am in favour of us helping the Kurds to force ISIS into retreat, but there is an issue I believe needs to be confronted before we send any of our forces out there.

    The Armed forces are duty bound to follow the orders given to them by the Executive with the support of Parliament. If they are told ( in what ever form ) to mobilise and deploy to Iraq, one thing the Military Covenant should expect of the State is that our Armed forces shouldn’t find some British passport waving Jihadis are on the other side trying to kill them.

    Blair thought he had removed the Act of Treason, but it is still there. This Act should be restated, and brought back for this, along with the death penalty for anybody found supporting the enemy.

    • HookesLaw

      This seems a bit convoluted and there is no chance of anybody being given any death penalty. I am not sure how someone travelling to fight Iraqis in Iraq is defined as treason. There are probably other crimes they are guilty of. Again I am not sure what the point is of a death penalty is when you are dealing with suicide bombers.
      I can immediately think of two suspects for treason – McGuiness and Adams. Look at them now. For the record I can alsao think of various protestant murderers.
      Your hysteria may make you feel comfortable but it is pointless.

      • Simon_in_London

        None of them are traitors. The US Jihadi Major Nidal Hassan is an actual traitor – an officer in the US Army, who committed the Fort Hood massacre. But to my mind he’s barely more of a traitor than the people who recruited him, insisted on keeping him there, and said after the massacre that the most important thing was that Diversity didn’t suffer as a result!

        • Damaris Tighe

          They said it was a workplace incident!

        • Mike

          The ‘progressives’ in the US claimed it had nothing to do with religion and of course they’re always right!

      • vieuxceps2

        “Whataboutery” eh Hooky? Always rely on this fellow to piss on the chips of rational debate.

    • JohnM96

      I don’t think the Kurds will launch an offensive on ISIS. They will most likely just retake what they lost and be on the defensive.

    • Andy

      I don’t think we need to rely on the Treason Act of 1351. Any ISIS fighters caught should be summarily executed. They should be shown no mercy at all.

  • Alexandrovich

    I’d love to join you in this outright condemnation of IS Mr. Massie. However, recalling so many of your blogs accusing all and sundry of being islamophobic, I am somewhat confused. I had come to the conclusion, after reading you, that I was just a xenophobic, racist Little Englander and had only imagined any problems arising from islamic appeasement. You can see my dilemma, I hope.

    • Mike

      I’d like to think that the tide of political correctness and pandering to Islamic militantcy is starting to wane. I really pray it is for all our sakes otherwise we are doomed.

    • Andy

      If you are accused of being ‘Islamophobic’ it should be considered a badge of honour. Seeing what murder and barbarity is being meted out on the Yazidis and Christians we all now realise that Islam is nothing but a wicked and evil philosophy.

  • fundamentallyflawed

    You cannot declare war against ISIS. They are symbolic of the idea of an Islamic Brotherhood which is superior to all other religions (even other versions of Islam) -like a cockroach if you stamp them out they resurface with a new name.

    • Augustus

      A kafir has no human value in Islam. They can be exploited or just killed off, brutally if they feel like it. Muslims believe they have great rewards in heaven for killing kafirs.

  • Richard Wiser

    For the sake of these people suffering lets stand for something honorable again. Destroy ISIS before its to late.
    http://www.sgoal.org/International-community-should-together-military-attack-and-destroy-ISIS

    • Lamashtar

      The only people who are talking military action are the US and the UK. Apparently ISIS doesn’t bother the rest of the world enough to do more than express disapproval.

  • Kasperlos

    First, as with many others calling for western forces to hit the ground, Alex Massie is free as he is with his words to leave his keyboard and chair and visit his local HM Forces Recruiting Centre to volunteer. One thing that is needed is to stop the incessant globally-supplied arms ammunition and funding for all manner of groups. The general public in the West, for all the reporting, know little about the shady players and games being played out in that murky part of the world. ISIS is the latest entrant into the game; where did they suddenly come from, from where do their fighters come from, who are their supporters/funders, suppliers, trainers? First, it’s important to know just who the enemy really is. The sheer barbarity of ISIS is cause for alarm in the West and it must first and foremost give measure to the needs of securing the internal security of Britain and the EU in general. One reads of Britains fighting for this group and then returning to these shores sans questions asked at HM Border checks at the airport. We have in our midst jihadist barbarians – no telling just what horrific acts they participated in – residing in semi-detached houses throughout this Island and no government action. Now that’s worth writing about.

    • MrsDBliss

      Tour first point is very apt. Someone made the point today that more princes in this country have served in the armed forces than sons of politicians or politicians themselves. Maybe military service for all wouldn’t be so bad as it might just help us to appreciate what we are sending our forces out to.

  • AndrewMelville

    Honestly grow up, Alex. The western record of stupid interventions that make things worse – for the locals and for us – is so long, that we can have no confidence that this time we will get it right. We need to stop interfering and let the locals sort it out – in Iraq, in Afghanistan, in Libya, in Syria and in Egypt. Ditto for most of the rest of the world too.

    • Ordinaryman

      “Let the locals sort it out”. The “locals” are here!!

      • AndrewMelville

        Sadly you’re right.

  • Conway

    Islam is at (holy) war with every infidel. It is an essential part of the creed. The sooner everyone acknowledges this, the sooner we can get to grips with the problem.

    • Shazza

      Agree.

      We need to start cleaning our own house first, deep clean, fumigate – if we don’t, the dirt and decay will soon take over and the ensuing rot will be irreparable.

    • HookesLaw

      They are busy killing other Moslems as well.

  • MrsDBliss

    I genuinely can’t see how violence would help this situation. Although I support Israel’s right of self defence their response isn’t helping them is it? They at least don’t have an option but to at some point fight back – we do have options!
    There is the option of asylum for those minorities in this region. I don’t just mean Britain here, but I mean the rest of the countries involved in the UN. If we can send planes over to bomb people we can send them over to get them out. The impact in terms of immigration on subsequent countries would be minimal.
    France has already started to make the way of Christians; why aren’t we following suit?

    • Mike

      Doing nothing isn’t an option for Israel and neither should it be for us.

  • ButcombeMan

    Where is the wisdom of Tony Blair when we need it?.

    Does he STILL think that poking & destabilizing Iraq was a good idea?

    • Stephen Green

      He’ s too busy filling in his expense claim forms. As an employee of the UN his pay is all tax free and the expense claims un- audited. He knows which side his bread is buttered. No interruptions please.

  • vircantium

    There is a new cold war – between the West (including Israel) – and Islamofascism. Just like the old one, it is largely fought through proxies, with the occasional more direct intervention. Like the last one, there are plenty at home – again on the Left – who would appease, apologise for and even outright support the enemy.

    And again, like CW1, it will take leaders of courage and resolve to win it without it turning into WW3. Where oh where are today’s Thatcher and Reagan?

    • you_kid

      Islamowhat?
      Oxford Dictionaries would like to hear from you

      http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/spellcheck/all/?q=islamofascism

      • Tom Allalone

        Before you crawl back under your stone for the night (or better still, permanently) here’s Christopher Hitchens explaining it for you:

        http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/fighting_words/2007/10/defending_islamofascism.html

        • Inverted Meniscus

          There isn’t enough room under a stone for all of his sockpuppets.

        • you_kid

          Thank you for that, appreciated.
          So in simple terms, in the left corner we have ‘islamofascists’ and in the right corner we find ‘Judeo-Nazis’. Brilliant. Very helpful. Everyone’s a fascist now. Greens and anti-globalists (=Ukip?) are of course also not far. (rolls his eyes)

          I like this level of debate. You know why? Because it can only ever lead to two things: further dumbing down everything and of course the key factor, more violence.

          • global city

            Yu is soooooooooooo zen!

            • you_kid

              I particulary like the anti-globalist = ukip equation.
              Am I more wrong than the author Hitchens? Explain how.

              • global city

                The ‘isolationist’ slur is an idiotic one… or one so heavily coded as to be irrelevant in general debate anyway.

                I’d say your contrariness never succeeds in the way that you intend…. you are much inferior to telemachus.

                • you_kid

                  Inferior … how sweet. Anyway, ukip are perfectly anti-globalist. They are the ATTAC-come-thirty-years-too-late-to-the-party. Hilarious.

                • global city

                  Are you saying that you are superior to telemachus?

                  I am zenner than you is.

    • Simon_in_London

      “There is a new cold war – between the West (including Israel) – and Islamofascism”

      Except that Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf states are (a) the main source of ‘Islamofascism’, and (b) allies of the West, and frequent allies of Israel! Even Pakistan, which harboured Bin Laden for ten years, is still an ally of the USA. We have destroyed most of the ME’s bulwarks against ‘Islamofascism’ – in Iraq, Libya, Egypt (they came back) etc – and we nearly went to war with the Syrian regime, likewise.

  • dado_trunking

    What we need is a total WWWAAAARRR!

    It will ensure that simpletons continue to identify an enemy to hate and of course it will reunite the nation and keep Cameron, like Blair and Thatcher before him, in power.

    Do the bigoted far right want total war?
    Yes we do!

    • The Masked Marvel

      Blair and Obama are far right? Who knew?

      You’ve just forfeited your credibility on all issues of foreign policy. There’s no reason to hear a single word from you about genocide or any other humanitarian nonsense ever again.

      • dado_trunking

        Who said or even implied they were far right?
        Who said they wanted war?

        The bigoted far right want war – they always do, as evidenced all over this and other blogs.
        It’s always the same story. ONLY the bigoted far right ALWAYS WANT total war at every opportunity. It’s in their inferior genes.

        • obiwan

          “…The bigoted far right want war.”

          What do the bigoted far left want? To placate these homicidal maniacs? To offer them some accommodation? To march on their behalf?

          The left would have us kneel before these monsters and protest our unwillingness to offend them.

          ISIS will understand only one language and that will have to be delivered at the barrel of a gun. All else is wishful thinking.

          • dado_trunking

            Extremists must be opposed at all times on all sides.
            Have I ever said anything to the contrary?

            • The Masked Marvel

              You’re an extremist as well. You left yourself out.

        • The Masked Marvel

          You included Blair in your triumverate there. Obama was happy to bomb Libya after he could no longer ignore the slaughter, and had no trouble calling for war in Syria until he found out he had to get Congressional approval first. Is he the bigoted far right? FDR far right? Truman? Communist China? JFK? Chirac?

          No credibility at all. Stick to jedi gibberish.

          • dado_trunking

            Others have gone to war to remain in power? Wow, who knew?

            yet: ONLY the bigoted far right ALWAYS WANT total war at every opportunity. It’s in their inferior genes.

            • The Masked Marvel

              ONLY the bigoted far right ALWAYS WANT total war at every opportunity. [citation needed]

              • dado_trunking

                hehe – why? You lot never do.

                • The Masked Marvel

                  Fine, so long as we’re in agreement that you make things up.

                • dado_trunking

                  no, we are in agreement that your lot never do.

                • The Masked Marvel

                  My “lot”? Racist.

        • http://rumcrook.wordpress.com/ rumcrook™

          Well then you must hate children and your fine with children having thier heads cut off while they gurgle and shriek in terror and the savages put those heads on pikes while the little bodies still twitch as the blood runs out. Sometimes the only solution to the forces of evil to which you turn a blind eye is war. And i might add that your orwellian speak makes it more “virtuous” to ignore these savage onslaught and by default aid these goblins. How does it feel to be a supporter of isis?

          • dado_trunking

            I am a supporter of ISIS now?
            Will this bigoted piffle never end?

            • http://rumcrook.wordpress.com/ rumcrook™

              Moron, coward and self rightous jerk. You win the trifecta.

              • dado_trunking

                I am a moron for rejecting your view that I supposedly supported ISIS? Are you insane, boy?

                When will your cretinously moronic piffle end, you FAQface.
                I will trademark your fat backside and rumcrook it down your wormtongue, fella – make no mistake.

              • Colonel Mustard

                You have the creature bang to rights. He is deranged. Look at his reply and the threat of violence in his last sentence. He comes here to troll and lick the windows.

        • Conway

          Well, I think it’s well documented that Blair wanted war – he even manipulated the data to bring it about. By your reckoning (“The bigoted far right want war – they always do”) that makes him bigoted far right.

          • dado_trunking

            Now that requires a more complex response. Is Bliar a socialist in your eyes? Really?
            On a subtler note, Bliar clearly *joined* his ‘now watch that drive’ partner in crime, which in anyone’s book is not the same thing as ‘always wanting war’.

        • Simon_in_London

          The actual ‘far right’ certainly don’t want these Neoliberal wars. They’re generally anti-war (and see Western wars in the Middle East as Jewish plots), and they’re very conflicted about the war in Ukraine since they’re usually pro-Putin, but the far right Ukrainean nationalists are currently allied with the West and killing Russians in eastern Ukraine.

      • Inverted Meniscus

        I thought you had learnt your lesson engaging with his You_kid sockpuppet.

    • eclair

      You’re an idiot. Shut up for a moment please.

      • dado_trunking

        uptick Shazza, laddie – we know you want to.

        • Inverted Meniscus

          I know we have had enough of all of your sockpuppets.

          • Shazza

            Just ignore him – he will get bored with talking to himself.

  • Shazza

    I seem to recall, Mr Massie, how you laughed and poured scorn on Glenn Beck and his blackboards which he used to illustrate how the so called Arab ‘Spring’ was in fact the start of a disaster which would unfold across northern Africa and then the ME. He also warned of the trouble spreading to Israel and that Israel would be the canary in the mine. I seem to recall that he suggested this would start to spread to Eastern Europe…..

    So, who is laughing now?

    • dado_trunking

      WWWAAARRR! It’s what we want. It’s what we need. Total war.

      • Ordinaryman

        Sounds to me Dado, that you’re itching for a fight? But remember, the bigger fool argues with a fool, so I guess you’re going to be disappointed.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Not dado_trunking, dildo_trunking.

          • Wessex Man

            Dic*****!

            Spectator wouldn’t let me say what I really think of you!

            • Damaris Tighe

              My comment was marginally more witty than some of yours over the last few hours:

              “you toss pot”

              “no one really gives a F*** what a sh** like you thinks”

              & this is a prize one coming from you:

              “You really need to stop throwing these insults at someone who takes a different view to you”

              Ever heard of psychological projection? Look it up. Meanwhile, as a self-confessed Christian, you need to remind yourself of your own scriptures, especially the bits about beams & moats & making peace with your ‘enemy’.

          • Ordinaryman

            But surely, contrary to the recipient of the noun, doesn’t a dildo have a use sometimes?

            • Damaris Tighe

              So I’m told!

    • Simon_in_London

      Beck tends to be right about a fair bit. He might not be a genius but he does have the curiosity to actually research stuff, which certainly beats most commentators who just parrot whatever the current wisdom is.

      • Shazza

        He certainly was spot on with this prediction.

        He can get OTT but it helps to get the message across. I have no problem with his patriotism, something sadly not allowed in England but encouraged in Scotland and Wales.

        He has the zeal of the reformed alcoholic who has found comfort in religion and unlike most of these ‘born again’ charlatans, I believe he is genuine – the preaching bit is a bit too much for me – he makes no secret of his mega earnings either.

        He does his homework, frighteningly well and certainly is no coward when it comes to taking on the big boys – Fox chickened out, I would love to know who put the screws on them to muzzle him.

    • Wessex Man

      er, no one is laughing now, or are you gloating at the deaths of the Yazidis and Christians as you gloat at the deaths in Gaza?

      • Shazza

        Of course not – do you have absolutely no sense of irony?

        Glenn Beck and people on the Right have been warning about this emerging threat for many years now, including the deranged policy of importing this culture en masse into the UK to ‘rub the Right’s noses in diversity’.

        The chickens have come home to roost – and it is no laughing matter.

  • The Masked Marvel

    Well done Alex for understanding Trotsky’s axiom. Now you can tell us how a limited action to temporarily stop the violence by ISIS and the jihadis isn’t going to lead to the more long-term military involvement you previously told us was a bad idea, but will still permanently stop this slaughter.

  • MaxSceptic

    All very heart-touching but in this day and age any involvement will mean subjecting our servicemen to fighting with at least one hand tied behind their backs. Any unfortunate ‘collateral damage’ will be magnified and used to castigate us, and, by by using ‘limited force’ we will achieve bugger all strategically as ISIS will just melt into the landscape and reappear once we’ve left.

    I have no desire to see British servicemen sacrificed so that we can feel mildly virtuous. To paraphrase Bismarck: the whole Middle East is not worth the bones of one British Grenadier.

    If however, we could use unrestricted and overwhelming force and kill and destroy every last jihadi, wannabe jihadi and jihadi sympathiser within a 1,000 mile radius of Baghdad with no concern about public opinion at home or abroad, then that might be a task worth doing.

    • Barakzai

      I’d like to tackle the problem within a 1,000 mile radius of London, not Baghdad . . .

      • Andy

        Me too.

      • Simon_in_London

        25 miles would be enough for me!

      • telemachus

        If by tackle you mean evangelise I agree
        If you mean prevention of radicalisation by embracing their kin I agree

        • Colonel Mustard

          Well, you wanted to embrace “the Caliph” and ISIS and now you want to arm Hamas so we know well where you are coming from.

        • Wessex Man

          no one really gives a F*** what an sh*** like you thinks!

          • telemachus

            Your stars do not preclude a recommendation for proscription for your foul utterences

      • CO Jones

        I would suggest starting at Tower Hamlets, and then work outward from there.

      • ArchiePonsonby

        Now you’re talking!

      • Roger Hudson

        Tackling in in Oxford Street, where the black flag was raised this week, would be a start. Are only RT reporting that Majaharoun /IS outrage?

    • Wessex Man

      For once I agree with you, actually I commented on these pages weeks ago that a joint action is needed around the Globe, China, Russia and India besides the usual trouble spots are all coming under attack. The West and the East needs to come together on this and defeat IS before it’s too late!

      Of course and their paymasters Saudia Arabia and their allies!

      • MaxSceptic

        Now that really would be a Clash of Civilisations.

        • Tom M

          Except one of those referred to isn’t civilised.

      • William_Brown

        The Islamists are too savvy to take on China in any meaningful way. China won’t do anything until it feels threatened. The Islamists will wait until Western Europe has more, or less, fully capitulated – (I reckon about 30 years away). From there they will consolidate and the make the most of their offensive against Russia. They play the long game and only move quickly when their foes are too busy hand-wringing to take any real action – which is why the UK will be the first to fall.

    • Ed Van Zyl

      Doing nothing will result in them attacking the west next.Appeasement is what caused the second world war.

      • MaxSceptic

        Unless we are willing to wage total war in this ‘Clash of Civilisations – and all that such a war entails, any military efforts will be just retardant measures. Thus we should, at most, divert their blood lust onto each other.

        Once they’ve had their religious/sectarian wars (about 200 years or so) they may be ready for an Enlightenment.

  • Dada

    “Defeating jihadism” is an excellent objective because it is simple to understand and crystallises the issue. However, this requires coherent, intelligent leadership across a broad alliance of nations (USA, China, Russia, Turkey for starters). The challenge is not just about military might:more important is the cultural, technological and moral leadership. Probability of success: very low at the moment!

  • Pepe Turcon

    Obama brings the world closer to a nuclear confrontation, just wait….

    • MaxSceptic

      Shurely Shome Mishtake… He’s got a Nobel Peace prize.

      • Conway

        So has the EU – that’s turning out well in Ukraine, isn’t it?

  • obiwan

    “…And if we have that capability but choose not to use it against an enemy of unquestionable evil then the consequences of that inaction will be grim.”

    Absolutely. ISIS are the modern embodiment of an evil as hideous as Nazism, or Stalin’s brutality, or Pol Pot’s utter insanity. Leftist apologists should be reprimanded for their quisling grovelling and dissembling; ISIS are a clear and present danger to civilised democracies everywhere and absolute force should be brought to bear on them without hesitation.

    Where are the anti-ISIS marches? Where are the Left in their condemnation of these brutal murderers? Politicians dither, the mainstream media obfuscates and all the while ISIS are the move. And they are heading this way.

    • mightymark

      “Where are the Left”

      Bust condemning Israel instead – of course.

      • mightymark

        Whoops – “Busy”!

        • mightymark

          ……….or was I right the first time?

          • Stephen Green

            Carry on like this and you will eventually get to the heart of the matter.

    • MaxSceptic

      “Where are the Left”

      Shouting “We are Hamas” which is a close cousin of ISIS.

      • you_kid

        A welcome diversion for all the pork-haters out there.

        • The Masked Marvel

          What is it with you and Jews?

          • you_kid

            Nothing – nothing at all, it’s a welcome diversion for the pork-haters.

            Where are you? I can’t see you in the streets protesting against anything. Not against the pork-haters, not against the other pork-haters, not against the pork-lovers.

            • The Masked Marvel

              Gibberish.

              • you_kid

                Where are you shouting in the streets, MM?
                You are all zen. Good.

                • The Masked Marvel

                  Shouting in the streets is for juvenile narcissists with a penchant for violence. Writing to politicians, pressuring the media over their lies, and spreading information to voters is the more sophisticated method.

                • you_kid

                  It is indeed – now who have you been writing to, demanding the bombing of this or that? No one. Good.
                  You are aaaaall zen.

                • The Masked Marvel

                  now who have you been writing to, demanding the bombing of this or that? No one. [citation needed]

                  No proof, only slander. Charming.

                • you_kid

                  No slander, praise. You are all zen, which is good.
                  Now look at all those serious nutcases nicely lined up below below cold-bloodedly demanding sang chaud.

                • The Masked Marvel

                  Your opinion on who wants death and destruction is risible considering you support either the expulsion of all Jews from the land currently known as Israel, or at the very least the creation of a new State with a human rights violation built into it. You’ve never been exactly clear as to which, though.

                • you_kid

                  I am curious – what’s exactly is the human rights violation built in to it? And, once we have identified that human right violation, could one simply take it out?

                • The Masked Marvel

                  You know perfectly well what that human rights violation would be. Unless, perhaps, you think it’s halal to create a country in which one group of people out of all of humanity will be forbidden to live. We don’t know about being banned from entering at all to visit their sacred places, yet, but one suspects that will be the case as well.

                  No ‘critics of Israel’ – in which I include the UN – will care about taking it out, either.

                • you_kid

                  No, I don’t ‘know’ what that HR violation would be, and I will make perfectly clear that I would certainly not want to see any HR violation built into anything – which is sort of perfectly obvious from a moderate stand point. This must have escaped you.

                • The Masked Marvel

                  The Palestinian leaders have been very clear that Jews will be forbidden to live in any Palestinian State. As I said, perhaps you don’t see that as a human rights violation. I’m sure you’re shocked, shocked to discover this, eh?

                  http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-09-13/palestinian-israeli-jews-future-state-israel-PLO/50394882/1

                  http://news.dailyindiapost.com/news/abbas-vows-no-room-for-israelis-in-palestinian-state

                • you_kid

                  Well then those Palestinian ‘leaders’ are wrong, init?

                • The Masked Marvel

                  You say that, yet you will support the creation of such a State anyway. The fact that you’re unaware of this doesn’t reflect well on your judgment or knowledge of the issue.

                • you_kid

                  No MM, you should know by now how this works. You and I confirm the same thing. Then you accuse me of supporting some obscure straw man in a last ditch attempt to save face.
                  I do not support extremists, I asserted that countless times. Only you would be an extremist of another kind to repeatedly, wilfully ignore that basic fact – because, and now I will play your game back to you, it is you who does not support ANY two state solution.
                  You will lose, and may I assure you that the world is watching.

                • The Masked Marvel

                  On the contrary, I do support a two-state solution. Unfortunately the kind I would support cannot exist in the current reality. You may not accept that, but that’s your own relationship with reality.

                  Face it: you didn’t know or didn’t care about what’s been revealed to you. All your previous righteous statements have been undermined, and you’re now scrambling to get back on the righteous horse. Accept it and move on.

                • you_kid

                  No, again the contrary is true. We have established (again) that extremist views on both sides drive current policy. We have established (again) that this path is not the path to a solution, merely a stepping stone towards a solution as soon as both sides wake up and realise that the only solution is to give both sides the rights that other people all across the globe take for granted. Those parties not wanting that solution are the extremists, those parties on both sides are currently influentual and call the shots. It’s not difficult really to spot who has and who has no real interest in finding that solution, the only solution so far presented. Unless someone will present a better solution we will continue to stick to the one outlined.

                  PS: not fussed about the moderation as the message of ridiculing both (extremist) sides has been made more than once.

                • The Masked Marvel

                  Some idiot flagged your ‘pork-haters’ remark. If the moderators kill it, yet all the anti-Jew venom spewed by the usual (and some unusual) suspects remains, a complaint to the editors is in order.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  You were right the first time he writes nothing but gibberish.

              • Tom M

                Quite. Where’s telemachus when you need him?

                • The Masked Marvel

                  He’s busy polishing Ed Balls’ turds.

              • Kennybhoy

                No. Evil.

            • Gafto

              More nonsensical utter drivel.

            • global city

              Do you take pork? Oooh, Missus!

          • William_Brown

            It’s the new ‘cool racism’ don’t you know.

            • Ordinaryman

              Not so new though.

          • Ordinaryman

            It’s because “pork-haters” don’t eat pork — they eat goat, especially kid goats.

      • Francis Wright

        Yeah I asked on the guardian website yesterday “where are the voices of moderate Muslims” ? I was acussed of being ignorant

        • ArchiePonsonby

          Surely you didn’t expect anything else from that ghastly rag? (Circulation 24,000 and plummeting!)

        • sebastian2

          You should’ve known they all have laryngitis. It’s an epidemic among moderate muslims. Obvious really.

    • Shazza

      “Where are the Left in their condemnation of these brutal murderers?”

      They are marching, shoulder to shoulder in the streets of London, Paris, Amsterdam etc. with the supporters of Hamas who share the same ideals and ambitions of ISIS their co-religionists who are implementing their koranic instructions.

      • kefp

        And reigniting anti-semitism

        • Shazza

          Sadly, yes. We thought we had defeated that in 1945 but unfortunately it is now rearing it’s very ugly head.

          • you_kid

            … but we have Shazza fighting back so we are safe.

    • timmay

      I think most reasonable people would agree that it is high time for military intervention in Iraq to stop this savagery (and something Britain and the US owe to the Iraqi people really), but what is the long term plan?
      When ISIS are defeated won’t they just retreat back into their holdings in Syria and still carry on being a problem?

      • Conway

        Military intervention in Iraq will not solve anything, never mind that our forces have been so run down that they would be hard pushed to make any sort of intervention, let alone a meaningful one.

        • global city

          They could make the tea…for all sides mind you.

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