Coffee House

Ukip should beware distracting from its Carswell coup with talk of other defections

29 August 2014

12:46 PM

29 August 2014

12:46 PM

Stuart Wheeler has just been boasting on Sky News that two more Conservative MPs are ‘seriously considering’ defecting to Ukip. Wheeler has been the broker in any potential defections, wining and dining potential converts before asking if they want a meeting with Nigel Farage. Not all of them have said yes to that second offer. It is, though, plausible that there are MPs who are still not rock solid in their decision to back the Tories all the way to the next election. The result of the Clacton by-election, how David Cameron plays the Europe question and how he manages the party over the next few months will determine whether they do go or not.

But it is surely risky for Ukip to boast about further defections when the party does not know that there will be any more. To gain one MP is quite enough drama for them to feast on for months, so why whip up excitement over a phantom? If no MPs defect, then the party’s failure to attract more will become a story, rather than its coup in enticing a backbencher who until very recently was praising his party’s progress and blocking the attempts of his fellow rebels to cause trouble for the Prime Minister over Europe. It wants to feast on the pain it is already causing the Conservative party, not hanker for more that might not materialise.

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Show comments
  • bobmattfran

    Why would anyone take any n otice of Stuart Wheeler, he’ nothing more than a spread bet spiv who supports the loony fringe of the Tory party.

  • Chiefrunningsores NPQ TSO

    What has Albert Steptoe got to do with it?.

  • janet burrows

    As a conservative with 50 years membership ( ex Finchley 1964) I cannot relate to the present party. I find Cameron is not to be trusted with a referendum on Europe.having voted against it twice.When I saw the date in 2017 I became a member of UKIP as I think this vote should take place before the election because the delay is affecting many decisions.I am surprised that the CAP has not been discussed since Blair said it would be considered in exchange for a reduced rebate?

  • Hagen vanTronje

    My Parents were Tory Councillors, we all used to work hard for the local Tory Party but what I now see is not Tory but a rather weak middle-of-the-road Social Democrat Party masquerading as Tories.
    Cameron has this uncanny ability to look folk in the eye as he tells them lies, Blair was also good at this ! like many others we moved to UKIP where they still have real Tory values and a Leader who appears capable of Leading !

  • Phoenix One UK

    Carswell doesn’t want a referendum for the sake of it – he wants Britain to leave the EU

    Posted on 29 August 2014 by Daniel Bentley

    Douglas Carswell’s defection to Ukip brings into sharper focus an emerging quandary facing eurosceptic Tory MPs. They have been promised an In/Out referendum if David Cameron gets back in next May. In the words of John Redwood, who joined the ranks of eurosceptic Tories expressing bemusement at Carswell’s decision yesterday, “we’ve won”. “My message to Douglas, if he’d told me beforehand, would have been ‘look, we’re very close to winning now, we’ve got the offers we want, and we’ve got to see it through and deliver’,” he told George Eaton. Of course, Carswell himself seemed to espouse this approach until very recently, which is why Westminster was taken by surprise by his change of heart yesterday.

    The thing is, and what Carswell has woken up to I suspect, is that eurosceptic MPs haven’t “won” at all, unless the staging of a referendum is all they want. But it isn’t. What they want is to leave the EU, or at least fundamentally amend the terms of UK membership. The latter looks increasingly unlikely, for all the reasons Carswell put forward yesterday about Cameron being “not serious about real change”, plus the fact that the EU under Jean-Claude Juncker will not tolerate British demands for restrictions on the free movement of labour.

    http://civitas.org.uk/newblog/2014/08/carswell-doesnt-want-a-referendum-for-the-sake-of-it-he-wants-britain-to-leave-the-eu/

    Unquote:=====================================

    The above was taken from Civitas (think tank), and I agree with their conclusion highlighted above.
    As for UKIP’s distraction, the point you appear to miss is this. What if it is true? Note indications are that it is true. Even Labour have problems over EU. Labour MPs even posted an open letter to Milliband on concerns with EU, which Milliband ignored. Note their is a large minority of Labour MPs who are not happy with Milliband, and there are even Labour MPs pushing to have Ed Balls expelled from the party.
    Seems to me that Labour has as much to fear from UKIP as the Tories, which are all in panic mode.
    You really should keep up to date with current events.

  • Raddiy

    Psychological warfare Isabel, psychological warfare!

    “The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”


    Sun Tzu,

    The Art of War

    “If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in
    superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek
    to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is
    taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate
    them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them.
    Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected .”


    Sun Tzu,

    The Art of War

    “All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack,
    we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive;
    when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when
    far away, we must make him believe we are near.”


    Sun Tzu,

    The Art of War

    “When the enemy is relaxed, make them toil. When full, starve them. When settled, make them move.”


    Sun Tzu,

    The Art of War

  • tom godwin

    The flimsy bubble has burst and Cameroon is now a Zombie . Lies and promises over an EU Vote , never delivered . Repeal of The Human Rights Lawyers Charter , never delivered , Cosy into Bed with the EU over the Homosexual and Lesbian , in my Church marriage fiasco. The list goes on . To all The Conservative marginal seat hangers on …. defect now ! Not even the ” Boris ” , Sleight of hand or ” Shuffle ” Trick will save you .

  • Robert P. Gammon

    Are Tory defectors traitors or saviors for Britain after revelations about ISIS and increasing numbers of migrants. Who has been marginalised: White English or ASians or Muslims?. In my humble opinion the white English population feel marginalised and intimidated by the huge numbers of migrates who have entered the UK over the last fifty years; many are illegal but why have successive governments failed to tackle the issue?. Perhaps UKIP is the catalyst that Britain needs to bring about change to rebalance the issue of security and culture.

  • ManOfKent

    To gain one MP is quite enough drama for them to feast on for months, so why whip up excitement over a phantom?

    Oh dear, how naive. I should get paid for this. Welcome to ‘Propaganda Practices 101’

    Why? To spread chaos and confusion throughout the upper echelons of the Conservative Party. To further emphasise that the Tories are a broken divided dysfunctional party. To feed the media with a narrative they just adore to feed off that debilitates UKIP’s main opponents at the next general election..

    Michael Gove and his merry band of whips will be frothing like rabid cocker spaniels for the next 6 months searching for any sign of disloyalty within the PCP and all the time they cannot be sure that someone might defect tomorrow or that someone is feeding UKIP all their election ploys and plans Like all such propaganda coups the beauty of it is it is plausible. There are tens of Tory MPs who just might on a bad day defect. How will they know? They were utterly clueless to Carswell’s intentions.

    Imagine if there are two more defectors out there. One defects it November maintaining UKIPs high profile into the Christmas season and then another perhaps the most prestigious of the three (a current or former minister of state or Cabinet member perhaps even) defects in February or March just before the election campaign or even perhaps defects on the day the Tories present their manifesto.

    This is the stuff of Cameron, Osborne and Crosby’s worst nightmares

    • CharlietheChump

      And jolly amusing it is too.

      • ManOfKent

        I know……

    • Conway

      It couldn’t happen to nice people :)

  • swatnan

    Nige knows that he must keep,up the momentum thats why Carswells defection is important, but it has to be followed by 6 more like Nadine Dorries and Bill Cash for example. Otherwise the Tories will work out an effective strategy of neutering Carswell in Clacton and taking the seat back. They did that in Newark; they’ll do it in Thanet S. So Garage will probably end up with zero MPs again. Of course money is aways available fofr UKIP because people like Wheeler are around.
    Dave will probably enter into a pact with UKIP, promising them easy 30 seats in exchange for Coalition, should he do well in 2015.

    • ManOfKent

      Lets just compare the Euro results in Newark and Clacton.

      In Newark UKIP had a 1% lead in Clacton they had a 23% lead and they have taken the popular sitting MP from the Tories and if Dan Hannan is to be believed a large part of the Tory Association is going to follow him. I imagine the the local Clacton Tory Association is in tatters this morning with everyone wondering who will be next to follow Carswell. It will be chaos.

      The idea that Newark is in anyway comparable with Clacton is laughable just as the idea that the Tories will hold Thanet South. I mean really what sort of message is it to put a UKIP reject up against a buoyant and successful current UKIP leader? I mean what were the Tories thinking of in Thanet?

      • swatnan

        And what sort of message is it to paracute Carswell into Clacton without telling the Lord? I can see fireworks ahead on Clacton Pier come May 2015 if not before.
        Carswell is a self publicist. He should just have defected and not forced a costly byelection. Then UKIP would at least have one MP, and Carswell would be like wasps being attracted to a jam tart or doughnut or fruitcake. The Tories won back Castlepoint, also in Essex.

        • ManOfKent

          Are you seriously that petty?

          Putting aside that technically under UKIP rules Lord was only the candidate for the General Election and it is within the UKIP NEC’s gift to decide who their by election candidates are Lord has blown any chances he might of had of gaining any sympathy by threatening violence on Carswell.

          More by luck than judgement it seems Farage has saved his party and the local UKIP association an enormous amount of future embarrassment

          Regarding the by election. Remember Quentin Davies defecting to Labour for a shabby Ministerial post? Tories were hysterical in their demands that he should resign and fight a by election. How hypocritical of them to now criticise Carswell.

          As for Spink (putting aside his demise occurred long before the UKIP rising,, he was facing deselection from the Tories so jumped shortly after defying the UKIP whip falling out with them out and ending up in in no man’s land politically . No wonder his voters threw him out.

          Carswell on the other hand, was more than secure as a Tory MP and has changed parties because he is a man of principle and integrity and as such he has asked his electorate to judge him at the first opportunity. He is absolutely right to do so in my book.

          Now if his voters view it as a waste of money (and it is really for them to decide) then surely they will be rid of him and you will be proved correct. If not he will become UKIP’s first legitimate MP elected by his constituency.and you can go whistle…….

          • swatnan

            I would agree that 85% of UKIP candidates need to be certified or apprehended. This is my main worry with UKIP that they still haven’t managed to attract the right sort of candidate. I favour a PR Electroral system and would accept a dozen odd UKIPPERS in a more inclusive and representative Parliament.

            • CharlietheChump

              PR = back room deals, no transparency, the sofa wins again.

            • ManOfKent

              You really have an odd view of things. A national PR system would deliver anything between 100 and 175 UKIP MPs on 15 to 25% of the vote. Are you ready for that? I certain the establishment parties are not! So don’t hold your breath hoping for it.

              As a decentralist I oppose everything about PR systems, centralist, undemocratic, centralist toys of party leaderships

              • swatnan

                I was thinking more of 6% of the vote or less; being more realistic in a GE.

                • ManOfKent

                  Not according to the polls it ain’t but anyway 6% delivers about 39 MPs. More than enough to pressurise the larger parties.

          • Conway

            “Defied the UKIP whip”? What UKIP whip?

        • statechaos

          Carswell is dismayed that the Tories haven’t introduced recall for MP’s and is supposed to be very enthusiastic about localism and open primaries for selecting candidates. So where is the local democracy in ousting the candidate Roger Lord who has already been selected to represent Clacton for UKIP, and imposing Douglas Carswell on the local party.?Surely this goes against the local democracy and spirit of open primaries that Carswell claims he believes in? But hang on, didn’t UKIP poll 48% in the European elections in Clacton. Perhaps this so-called principled politician realised that his days might be numbered as a Tory MP.

          • swatnan

            I don’t usually have much time for Dan Hodges, a turncoat and defector from Labour, but he makes a strong case in the Telegraph, just as you do. I don’t like turncoats. UKIP were going to be a ‘different Party’ but they’re just plain old Establishment! Bankers the lot of them.
            I don’t think Carswell is unprincipled; he’s just plain stupid and didn’t think it through, no doubt egged on by Nige.

            • Colonel Mustard

              “a turncoat and defector from Labour”

              Sounds good to me. But I know apostasy enrages you lot.

          • ManOfKent

            Surely this goes against the local democracy?

            Hardly democracy is about representatives seeking mandates from their electorate. By resigning and forcing a by election Carswell is seeking that mandate. He didn’t need to do that. He could have just have defected and carried on in the seat as MP as if nothing had happened until the general election.

            The electorate would have had to wait until next year and Lord would have still been the candidate but no doubt would have faced a special party election to choose between him and the sitting MP

            Carswell is fully fullfilling his commitments regarding local democracy.

            Whatever machinations go on within parties (whose membership excludes vast numbers of the local electorate) before their representatives face the local electorate is their business

            As it goes UKIP’s rules allow for the NEC to have complete control over the selection of by election candidates. There is no assumption that locally selected general election candidates automatically qualify. Lord has no claim on the by election candidacy

            Now Carswell would have to respect those rules. He couldn’t join a new party and begin throwing his weight around telling them how they should change things immediately now could he?

            As it is Lord threw his dummy out of his pram, shot his mouth off, threatened an MP with physical violence made a complete fool of himself with no justification and has given Farage every reason to throw him out of the party seemingly without ever trying to resolve the situation sensibly and quietly within the party.. Frankly there is no party in the land who would accept such behaviour from a candidate!

            Because of Lords pre-emptive posturing we will likely never know what selection considerations might have been made to decide between Carswell and Lord before the general election (should Carswell win the by election) because Lord has so badly tainted the process and as such Lord deserves to lose any opportunities that that may have been presented to him.

            Now as a general aside I am one of those who thinks Open primaries are rather superfluous and open to abuse in our form of party democracy. What is the point of the whole electorate choosing the individual party candidates for the election when they are going to choose between them in choosing their representative? What is needed is closed (party membership) primaries which have no pre selection by the local or central party hierarchies).

            However whatever is decided for planned elections special arrangments have to be made for by elections as there is often little or no time to adopt a full selection process.

  • Peter Stroud

    Like it or not, but Carswell’s defection might give UKIP its first Commons seat, but it will take the party no closer to either government, or HM official opposition. Eurosceptic Tory, or Labour MPs will think twice about defecting, until there is a groundswell in public support. Next May’s GE will answer this question. Nevertheless, there is a danger that votes going to UKIP will still rob the Tories more than Labour: hence making Miliband’s move to number 10 more likely. Worrying times!

    • CharlietheChump

      The problem is that, like 2010, 2015 will NOT answer the question because a)not enough people feel able to vote for a clear winner b) the electoral system favours Labour c) fewer and fewer people are voting.

      So another 5 years of grubby coalition with back room deals and agreements and nothing changes. The sofa continues in office undisturbed.

    • Conway

      Stop worrying and stop voting for Dave’s faux Conservatives. Don’t split the UKIP vote. Vote Dave, get Miliband.

  • Mynydd

    Reading the posted comments it seems UKIP supporters are so thin skinned that they have to rise up against even the mildest exposure of their position.

    • Colonel Mustard

      Like you posting frantic Thatcher whataboutery whenever your precious Labour party is criticised.

    • ManOfKent

      This from a supporter of a party that screams ‘bigot’ at any opponents who fart in the wrong way and plays the victim whenever faced with criticism. Priceless

  • Bert3000

    Stuart Wheeler looks like one of those old men from the Muppet show. Ridiculous man.

    • Colonel Mustard

      Ageism.

      • realfish

        Muppetism

      • Bert3000

        I’m as guilty of cretinous old fart who thinks the country should be destroyed to suit their incredibly stupid prejudices -ism as anyone and proud of it thanks.

        • Colonel Mustard

          You might be that but you are also an ageist bigot.

          I’m guilty of ‘cretinous Labour creep who thinks the country should be destroyed to suit their incredibly stupid ideas-ism’ as anyone and proud of it too thanks, but I don’t make any distinction of age so I am not an ageist.

          Therefore I am morally superior to you.

        • Wessex Man

          Please expand and in detail explain how a self made millionaire who gave millions to the Torys is a cretinous old fart compared to you. Check out the state of the Eurozone which will need bailing out again, this time including Germany.

          If you can’t do that just do one!

          • Bert3000

            He’s a cretinous old fart compared to most of the population of Britain and his success as a spiv is not something you should be quoting in his defence.

            • Colonel Mustard

              National service, barrister, (so more life experience than the muppet Miliband), pioneered spread betting which your mate Gordon Brown took advantage of.

              Spread betting companies are treated like other bookmakers by the UK Inland Revenue, and so pay corporate tax. A betting tax, which levied 9% of winnings on punters, was abolished in 2001 as part of a successful UK government effort to draw the sports bookmakers back from overseas.

              “The current UK government (New Labour) has been very encouraging of gambling,” says Slaney. “They shifted the tax on to the bookmakers and the higher volumes made everyone happy. They are more likely to raise the tax on bookmakers to increase revenue than shift back (to a tax on winnings).”

              Moreover, Denham adds: “UK chancellor Gordon Brown and everybody else know that most people lose money. If spread betting became taxable, they would be able to offset their losses. And as they lose more than they gain, the Inland Revenue would actually lose revenue.”

              So, none of your baloney.

              • Bert3000

                “pioneered spread betting”

                A seedy little bookie.

                • CharlietheChump

                  Colonel 1 Bert 0

    • John Dalton

      Pathetic.

    • Colonel Mustard

      You sound like Bert in the Muppets. Do you look like him too?

    • CharlietheChump

      Maybe so, who cares, the old boy spends more on lunch than you earn in a week

  • careering_off

    Perfect picture to go with this post. You just have to look at Stuart Wheeler. Not exactly the future, now is he?

    • Colonel Mustard

      Ageist.

  • CharlietheChump

    Just ignore it then. You just gave the story another leg.

  • Karl Stuebe

    So…about those immigration figures?

    • crackenthorp

      they are now the norm as we rely on immigration to boost the GDP figures. Without immigration we would still be in a recession

      • Wessex Man

        I just knew it would be Bert3000 giving your idiotic comment an uptick!

        • crackenthorp

          so you are economically illiterate

      • Airey Belvoir

        Surely it is now a well-known statistic that immigrants, overall, are a net disbenefit to the economy – as you must take into account tax credits, housing benefit and other social costs, medical coverage and education of their offspring all of which increase preessures on the indigenous population.

        • crackenthorp

          you do not seem to know your economics. Every penny an immigrant earns is treated as a net export therefore helping our balance of payments. This in turn helps GDP, housing benefits etc. are only minor compared to the bigger picture

          • Conway

            A net export, eh? Well, I agree, some of the money they get is sent home, so you could say it’s exported.

            • crackenthorp

              You really do not want to read the truth do you. Still what can one expect from Tory

              • the viceroy’s gin

                Heh… “the truth”.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            Immigrant earnings are net exports? You really are a crackenthorp.

            • crackenthorp

              Ah we have an idiot in our midst, go to HM Treasury website and read and weep you plonker

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …yes, we do have an idiot in our midst, lad.

                • crackenthorp

                  Tories never admit they are wrong, that is why they are still remembered as the nasty party and their supporters are no better

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …you’re still an idiot, lad.

                • crackenthorp

                  My oh my when the indisputable facts are put before you yourself and many other so called Tories cover their ears and shout la la la as they just do not want to know the truth because it goes against their bigotry. No wonder this party is falling apart at the seams

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …by “indisputable facts” you must mean your idiocy, lad.

                • crackenthorp

                  you just cannot admit you are wrong, just like the party you support. Keep taking the gin it might make you seem more plausible but then again nothing can make you look sane. It is a pity Margaret Thatcher closed down all the loony bins. I am sure a place could have been found for you

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …you can definitely admit that you’re an idiot, lad.

                • crackenthorp

                  as i said!!!!!

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Good, the first step is always an admission, and your idiocy is definitely worthy of that.

                • crackenthorp

                  Ronald Reagan springs to mind when he talked about some people being “loony tunes”. You definitely fall into that category

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Well, I’m flattered you put me alongside Reagan, but you’re still an idiot, lad.

                • crackenthorp

                  an 84 year old at that but i am not full of myself like you, get back to your kindergarten

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …not following that gibberish, but let’s just reiterate that you’re an idiot.

                • crackenthorp

                  thick as well

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Well, yes, you are thick as well, but mostly an idiot.

                • crackenthorp

                  As the post below states you are part of the “living dead”
                  How true

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …as every one of your posts states, you’re an idiot.

                • crackenthorp

                  Oh how am i going to laugh when your cohorts are obliterated next May by your own hands. It will be like winning the lottery

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …you’ll be an idiot next May and every month before and after next May, lad.

                • crackenthorp

                  Now that you have proved that you are intellectually substandard why do you you go out of your way to prove you are also an imbecile. Maggie Thatcher has a lot to answer for in shutting down mental asylums. Keep on replying in your imbecilic way as you are the best recruiter the Labour party has ever had

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …TLDR, you idiot.

                • crackenthorp

                  RBNG

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  URNIDIOT

                • crackenthorp

                  T W A T

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Yes, you’re that, too. But mostly you’re an idiot.

                • crackenthorp

                  I hope you will emigrate after next May so that these blogs can improve intellectually.
                  As a matter of interest do you practice at being a T W A T or does it come naturally

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  TLDR.

                  You idiot.

                • crackenthorp

                  RSPCC

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  URSTILLNIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  RSPCA

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  UWILLALWAYSBEANIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  CRAPSILIOUS

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  URAJEDIKNIGHTOFIDIOCYYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  is there any wonder that the tory membership has plummeted with people like you supporting them

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  URIDIOCYPERSONIFIEDYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  And to think we give people like you the vote. God help us all

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  URACARDCARRYINGIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  Looks like Cameron will have to resign, who are you going to suck up to now

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  URANIDIOTNOMATTERTHEPMYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  BROWNNOSER

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  IDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  IDIOTS CAN GET BETTER BUT ONCE A BROWNNOSER ALWAYS A BROWNNOSER

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  UWILLALWAYSBEANIDIOTYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  ditto

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  NOWECANNOTAFFORDTOHAVEANOTHERIDIOTLIKEYOUYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  ditto

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  LETSHOPETHERESNOMORETHANONEOFYOUYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  ditto

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  LETSHOPETHERESNOMORETHANONEOFYOUYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  ditto

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  DITTOYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  ditto

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  DITTOYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  clup

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  DONTYOUMEANCLAPYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  no clup

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  NOCLAPISWHATYOUMEANYOUIDIOT

                • crackenthorp

                  clup is German for ditto you idiot

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  CLAPISWHATAFFLICTSYOUYOUIDIOT

                • crackenthorp

                  just because you are mentally deficient does not mean you can insult people so just go and lie down in a dark corner and contemplate trying to be normal

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  YOUSHOULDGETTHATCLAPTREATEDYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  clup

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  CLAPYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  clup

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  CLAPISWHATYOUHAVEYOUIDIOT

                • crackenthorp

                  clup

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  NOYOUHAVECLAPYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  clup

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  NOITSCLAPYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  clup

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  YOUCLAPISAFFECTINGYOURSPELLINGYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  oik

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  YOURSPELLINGISGETTINGEVENWORSEYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  oik

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  MAYBEITSTHECLAPYOUIDIOT

                • crackenthorp

                  oik

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  CLAPWILLDOTHATYOUIDIOT.

                • crackenthorp

                  oik

          • bobmattfran

            When you deduct the real cost to the economy ther eis a very small net financial benefit. it is less than 0.01 of GDP. What is more damaging to the economy is the failure of government to clampdown on repatriated profits with artificially low tax deducted by the International corporations. Cue Vodaphone, Starbucks, BHS, Currys/PC World/Dixons.

        • bobmattfran

          So would you like to explain then why the big supermarket chains, the £ shops, BHS, some of the largest bakery businesses, industry and areas of commerce use low paid immigrant labour? Or has it not yet ocurred to you that the reasoniing behind business welcoming low paid immigrants is so that they can screw down hourly rates and wages even further. I object to subscibing through my taxes to the profits of big business who pay low wages that require topping up from the public purse so that the recipient worker can live. That needs to be addressed irrespective of whether the worker is an immigrant or a UK citizen. Why do you think that the political classes are not keen to do anything? Because they can use the old trick of divided and rule which deflects the publics attention of the nefarious deeds that they up to.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        While this is technically true, GDP per capita is flat or declining, and that’s the truest measure .

  • Rhoda Klapp8

    Nine Carswell posts now, still no immigration figures mentioned?

    • John Wilford

      As Cameron said, UKIP are racist loonies.

      • Rhoda Klapp8

        Cameron said he was going to reduce net migration. The Spect should be reminding us how he is doing amongst all the Carswell stories shoring up tory hopes by misrepresenting ukip and giving us the fake vote ukip get miliband FUD. Missing the point stated here many times by ex-tory voters that it doesn’t make much difference whether we get labour or the current incarnation of the tory party.

  • ButcombeMan

    Isabel

    Why on earth should UKIP need advice from you?

    You have consistently misjudged the situation around UKIP and the huge support is has in the country. You have consistently misjudged the despair at Cameron’s behaviour by previously long term Tory supporters.

    Wheeler did not put the chances very high of another defector before the by-election, so UKIP are certainly not over egging it. They are just responding sensibly and apparently frankly, to reasonable media suggestions.

    One sensible thing Wheeler said was that any MP who was standing down at the next election anyway, would not be risking much by going over to UKIP now (or maybe just resigning from the Tories).

    A very sound point

    • telemachus

      Any Tory who does will risk the goodwill of years and any chance of gong/quango
      *
      Wheeler should go suck

      • crackenthorp

        you stupid buffoon

        • telemachus

          I can take any buffeting in the certain knowledge that my views are with the zeitgeist

          • Colonel Mustard

            Labour always pretend that they represent the public. They don’t. They just represent a power clique that holds the country of England to ransom and ruins it. Your victims define you.

            • CharlietheChump

              True Colonel, true

            • bobmattfran

              Colonel mustard there you go again parotting the Daily Mail, what i wrong with the tories if they have run out of excuses and seek to blame evrything on the previous pink tory faux labour administration. That’s your problem, you have nothing to offer accept sniping in a vain attempt to deflect attention from the worst reactionary government in the last 60 years. I can remember when the Tory party where decent an honourable and did not relly on vote buying scum like Stephen Wheeler for funding, now they are fractured party who represent greed, self service and certainly not the majority of the population. At one time becoming an MP represented Public Service, now it represents in a lot of cases and easy sinecure and an offer by donors of a lucrative potion when they lose their seat at an election.

          • ButcombeMan

            But you have not yet taken any buffeting over Labour’s very many years, of turning a blind eye to the abuse of children in Rotherham, by gangs of Pakistani males, who you no doubt hoped, would support you at the ballot box. ,

            You have done that by keeping your head down.

            No doubt on the instructions of Milliband and cronies.

            You think it will go away.

            it is disgusting and appalling, it will not go away.

            • telemachus

              Evil men are evil men
              It is not party political
              Those who say it is are mischievous

              • ButcombeMan

                The ignoring of it was political.

                It seems it was Labour and Common Purpose, clones.

                That is why you kept your head down and did not comment in those threads.

                The people of Rotherham and elsewhere doubtless now have it all worked out.

                UKIP should do well.

              • Colonel Mustard

                Oh, it’s party political when the decision makers and coverers up operate in the name of and on behalf of a particular political party. And when the imposed ideology of that political party is the root cause.

                Odd how when Tories are mired in scandal it is Tory scum and Miliband geek-prancing about on his bandwagon doing his indignant nasal ventriloquism act but whenever it is Labour in the frame suddenly it is not party political and there is no room for party point scoring. I have known that curiosity of imbalance my whole life so please don’t try to tell me that it is not party political.

      • davidraynes

        Which says much about your and Labour’s value system

  • southerner

    We are at last beginning to see the collapse of the walking dead that is the Conservative party. It is no surprise – Cameron treats the dwindling membership with contempt. The party leadership now stands for everything that is instinctively counter to conservative values and principles that we on the right believe.

    I am sure CCHQ is a great source for stories and copy but no amount of Camerloon cheerleading by the Spec kids is going to change that.

    Still no story yet on the immigration figures going through the roof again. Just constant UKIP baiting.

    • John Dalton

      Spot on. The Speccie has abandoned all pretence of being anything other than a mouth-piece for Conservative Central Office.

      The drip drip drip of spiteful attacks on UKIP, just like in the run up to the Euros – but NOTHING about immigration spiralling out of control and Mr Slippery’s laughable pledge lying in tatters and some “how could this happen” hand-wringing about the grooming gangs that are the blight of our going-to-the-dogs mul*icultural society – but abject failure to name the culprits or state the true scale and reality of the situation.

      Perhaps if these kids spent less time promoting themselves in the TV studios and more time outside of their cosy consesnsus bubble they might be worthy of more respect. The Tories have done nothing to sort this mess out – so I will back the party that will.

      • telemachus

        No attack on UKIP is spiteful
        *
        It accords with the moral stance of a moral journal not wishing to support a racist organisation

        • CharlietheChump

          you have no morals you’re a socialist

          • telemachus

            It is immoral in fact not to care for your fellow man

            • CharlietheChump

              I am immoral, I do not care about you and you faux fairness trot twisting

              • telemachus

                I take that as read
                *
                My concern is with the moral fibre of the Nation being beguiled by the racists of ukip

                • CharlietheChump

                  It’s not your paranoia, they are coming to get you, their blazers and their pipes, their mashie niblicks and gin and tonics, they are all there, outside now, looking through your mailbox, in the bushed outside, going through the bins, listening to the phone, monitoring your net usage. Fibre should end up in the toilet.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Wonderful. They are going to force him to live in the 1950s too.

                • CharlietheChump

                  Well, Stalin was at his best then, eh?

                • ButcombeMan

                  Moral fibre? When YOU talk about people who might act with integrity, losing the opportunity for a gong or a public Quango job?.

                • Kitty MLB

                  I have mentioned before for moral fibre you just
                  need to pray to the almighty (not Allah)
                  then a bowl full of branflakes with extra prunes.

                • telemachus

                  You mock Ladybird
                  But our moral welfare is under threat from those who drag billboards to our immigrant communities
                  *
                  Swifts and swallows

                • CharlietheChump

                  Also many have beards

                • Colonel Mustard

                  The moral fibre of the nation has already been beguiled by the slimeballs of Labour.

                • The_Missing_Think

                  “… moral fibre… blah blah… Labour”
                  _____

                  I clearly remember listening to Ann Cryer MP on R4 speaking about it, years ago…

                  Westminster has tea rooms and about 17 bars. (and radios I presume).

                  I think she even mentioned it on the Floor, and issued written questions.

                  Those are Liblabcon fingerprints, stop pretending otherwise, it’s very dishonest.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Eh? What have Westminster tea rooms and bars got to do with Labour’s Rotherham scandal?

                • The_Missing_Think

                  Off the record conversations and gossip.

                  The point you’re evading is this:

                  If Ann Cryer MP was on Woman’s Hour and other MSM talking about, Westminster knew all about it, and were making the big decisions, not the council scapegoats.

                  So if the collective Liblabcon turned a blind eye, as they did, they are to blame, including your beloved ‘My Tory party, right or wrong’. They took millions as HMG’s Official Opposition, but never broke ranks.

                  So pinning it all on Labour for points – as you most certainly are – doesnt strike me as right or honest.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Firstly you appear not to be able to read because if you did you would find plenty of criticism of the Tory party in my comments.

                  Secondly Ann Cryer is a Labour MP.

                  Thirdly there were stark warnings of what was happening in reports made in 2002, 2003 and 2006 when a Labour government was in power and nothing was done.

                  Fourthly you seem utterly ignorant of the way Labour councils and their “progressive” infrastructure work in spinning and concealing their own failures. God knows there have been enough examples.

                  Labour were and are to blame. The more so because they are the clowns always whining about justice, equality and protecting the vulnerable.

                • bobmattfran

                  Colonel Mustard you relly believe in leading with your chin don’t you. There were stark warnings to the Tory government of Thatcher, Major, Blair and Cameron and they are all culpable for sweeping it under the carpet. Because if the results of a thorough unbiased investigation were ever made public, there would be riots and many in high places right at the top of the pyramid would face jail. You know it, I know it and many of the public know it. This vile behaviour is not restricted to one political party or for that matter one race or one profession. The country is corrupt from the top to the bottom, anything can be bought, sold or suppressed, be it the supplying of children to the removal of evidence of the same.

                • bobmattfran

                  THe morl fibre of the nation disappeared down the drain a long time ago, due mostlt to one evil narrow minded women who coined two phrases, “Greed is good” and “Ther is n o such thing as society” Thatcher did more damage than Hitler to the spirit of this once proud nation.

                • Gafto

                  Instead of worrying about the nation’s moral fibre, I would be more concerned about English children being gang raped and tortured by the racists of Isl*m.

                • telemachus

                  By evil men
                  Some of whom are Islam in upbringing but atheist in belief
                  But others are indiginous Brits

                • Gafto

                  ‘Indiginous Brits’?

                  The scores of cases across the country of M*slim gangs raping children are notable precisely because they consist of Asian M*slim men, not Asian Sikhs, not Hindus, not Buddists and not indiginous Britons.

                  You write about embracing these Isl*mofascists, why do you despise the indigeonous people of this country so much?

                • bobmattfran

                  Court Records for 2012 still being updated.Reveals the following interesting information. Cases of rape of minors by adults (over 18) 1,736 of which 881 White British, 669 Asian, All other races 186. Try again you are relying on hear say and the Daily Mail. The stats tell a completely different story.

                • mike_s376

                  Suppose for the sake of argument that these figures are not distorted by the police being afraid of being perceived racist. Then still considering the fact that less then 5% are “Asians” one should expect less then one eighteenth of the cases of the 881.(90% white and 5% “Asians”) Conclusion: The “Asian” are 17 fold over-represented.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  So “Asian” child rape occurs well out of proportion to their numbers. Thanks for proving the point .

                • bobmattfran

                  No point proven at all regarding other than your continuing shift from basic logic. You just have a bias that blinds you to the demographic evidence.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  You have a basic ignorance of statistics and demographics, lad.

                  But again, thanks for proving the point.

                • bobmattfran

                  1. I am not a lad you condescending , arrogant idiot, and 2. your attempt to avoid the basics of statistics and demographics ie revealing.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Nothing has been revealed other than you know nothing about statistics and demographics, lad.

                  But again, thanks for proving the point.

                • Gafto

                  Yeah the stats that you quoted there tell me that although Asians account for ‘only’ 8% of the population, 40% of those convicted for raping minors are Asian. As child rapists they are very much over represented.

                  Thanks for your stats, they re-enforce what we all know.

                  Its people like you who have enabled the Musl*m rape gangs.

                • bobmattfran

                  Gafto just to respond to ludricous statement let me give you an example of how without merit your statement really is.

                  In the figures available to date (November 2011) There are in the UK 73,631 schizophrenics who are considered dangerous, but only 934 of them are in a secure mental institution. Of the 934, 887 are British White, 17 are Jews, 6 are Spanish, 17 are American, 2 are Pakistani 2 Canadian, I Brazilian and 2 Chinese.

                  Uisng your principle of representation a completely no scientific methedology you would conclude that Jewish and American schizophrenics in the UK are to use your words are very much over represented. Taking that to your illogical conclusions, I suppose that you would consider that the British White schizophrenics represent no threat. i reest my case.

                • Gafto

                  Total drivel, lets face it, you shot yourself in the foot with your stats. 40% of those that were convicted of raping kids in your statistics were Asian whereas Asians make up 8% of the population. What is illogical about that?

                  What has that got to do with your new set of stats regarding schizophrenics?

                  Keep on trying to convince yourself Pakistani men are not over represented in the child rape stakes if it makes you feel better about yourself.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …they’re child s e x slavers, and you socialist nutters enabled them .

                • CharlietheChump

                  Morals Hah! You share the “morals” of the regime that permitted (encouraged?) the abuse of thousands of children and the demise of the elderly and infirm.
                  You have no right or claim to a moral universe.

                • bobmattfran

                  So apparently do you if you have voted Con, Lab, Lib or SDP

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …your concern is aiding the child s e x slavers, as they victimize innocents.

            • Colonel Mustard

              So, Labour’s council in Rotherham is immoral? We know it but we want you to admit it or wriggle to show how duplicitous you are.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …yes, care for you fellow man, but as for the children, they’re headed for the child s e x slavers, eh lad?

          • bobmattfran

            Charliethe Chimp Thta’s rich coming from a by default Tory supporter. The tory aprty has the morals of the cat house, you know it and most people with any sense know it. Get away with you.

            • CharlietheChump

              The Tories are far too social democrat for me, think again if that’s not too painful for you

              • bobmattfran

                So you admit to being extreme right and bordering on the facist, on that basis at least your honest and I respect your honesty, even if I vehemently disagree with your proposed policies.

                • CharlietheChump

                  Fascism is a deviant form of socailsim it is not right ring no matter how mant repetitions of the lie come.

                  I am neither right or left, these are defunct 19thC socialist/trotskyist labels.

        • anyfool

          I see that someone has dislodged the stone and set you free,

          Three years ago I asked you if you would be comfortable with your children under the governance of Muslims, eventually you said yes.

          Do you still hold that view

          • telemachus

            I have no problem whatsoever in that concept
            *
            My problem is only with the Medieval folks of ISIL, who have nothing whatsoever to do with Islam as a religion

            • Baron

              telemachus, you say “the medieval atrocities of ISIL (comitted in the enlightened times of the 21st century) have nothing whatsoever to do with Islam as a religion”. That’s fine with Baron, it’s your view, you entitled to it.

              But what about the medieval atrocities committed in the name of Christ in times medieval? Nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity as a religion?

              • telemachus

                That is precisely the point I keep making
                It is human failings and the actions of evil men
                We need to embrace Islam in the West to prevent the medieval warriors taking hold of our youth
                *
                Some folks round here do not understand
                We need for people to understand for the good of our society

                • CharlietheChump

                  You’re using Google Translate

                • Colonel Mustard

                  We understand you perfectly. I have understood you perfectly from the day you arrived here with your “charter”.

                • bobmattfran

                  I dou bt ou have the intelligence to understand anything that does not fit in with your blinkered view of the world.

                  You support by default a government that crawls on all fours to the most vicious territorial interfering warmongering country in the world, who’s remit is to ensure that no state can challenge the hegemony of the USA. But then that has always been the weakness of every government since 1950, no interest in the people just in following the dictats of the corrupt, greedy, power crazy USA.

                • Joseph John Wilkinson

                  Who’s Society are we talking about, certainly not British

            • Colonel Mustard

              Don’t lie. When the ISIL leader video was posted you told us to give him a fair hearing and compared him favourably to Bush.

              When I linked to that thread in response to one of your subsequent boasts you first made your comments private and then (no doubt under instruction from Burnham’s Wiki-altering lackeys) edited your original comment. But there was another equally repulsive endorsement of ISIL in the same thread which you missed.

              The apparent common cause between elements of the Labour party and militant Islamic terrorism is one of the most curious but sinister aspects of modern British politics.

              • John Dalton

                Well done for calling this prat out!

              • bobmattfran

                @Colonel Mustard Wow another dinosaur crawled out of the Tory swamp in a pitiful effort to deflect attention from a failed Tory led government. Who actually encouraged immigration under another cynical Tory government to force down wages? Enoch Powell who encouraged Jamaicans then Pakistanis and Indians to emigrate to the UK to staff London Transport.
                Who actually sided with Geroge Bush Senior to go to war in Iraq because Saddam was daring to sell his countries oil in other currencies than $US/ Margaret Thatcher. Who lied about weapons of mass destruction on behalf of GW Bush and Cheyney to get approval fo an illegal war in Iraq? The light blue Tory one Tony Blair. Who attempted to support the US for a proxy war in Syria in the full knowledge that the so called “freedom fighters” were in fact Al-Queada terrorists supplied by Saudi Arabia? one Dav id cameron on the advise of his clueless warmongering foreign secretary. Hague. Any more jokes form your sad collection of serial lies?

            • Joseph John Wilkinson

              You don’t have a clue regarding Islam or it’s religion, Rotherham Council would just love you

        • Ricky Strong

          I would have thought that events of this week serve as a reminder as to why you should not be throwing that word around as loosely as you do.

          Incase it slipped your mind I’m referring to 1,400 – that’s right – 1,400 children who were systematically gang raped and drugged but told to get lost because some people didn’t want to appear racist.

          Stop using that word to shut down debate, it has serious consequences.

          • telemachus

            Our duty is to the moral health of our Nation
            Nothing is more important
            Gladly I perceive the good folk of Clacton are aware of this and will do the right thing in coming weeks

            • CharlietheChump

              and ignore your twisting bunch entirely

              • bobmattfran

                Whatever you do then don’t look too hard at Westminster Council! They are running out of cupboards to hide theri skeletons.

            • Colonel Mustard

              So, I ask again, Labour’s council in Rotherham is immoral? We know it but we want you to admit it or wriggle to show how duplicitous you are.

        • Colonel Mustard

          Gadzooks. The Labour slimeball telemachus and the Spectator’s deputy editor make common cause over faux racism.

          Who’d a thunk it?

          • bobmattfran

            Go away you old fool you really are past your sell by date as is the corrupt party that you support.

        • Raddiy

          I imagine you think the Labour party in Rotherham allowing the rape of 1400 young white girls by Pakistani men was not racist, just the acceptable face of Labour multiculturism in action.

          No need to answer, I remember your defence of the kiddie fiddling PIE supporter Harriet Harman, so of course you support what your fellow socialists find acceptable in Rotherham, Rochdale etc.

          • bobmattfran

            See my post regarding the Court figures for the cases of rape involving minors by adults. It somewhat does no bear out your biased and unsupported allegations.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …so you’re a supporter of child s e x slavery, eh lad?

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …and afterall, your moral stance gifted those 1,400 children into child s e x slavery, eh lad?

        • polly parrot

          Telemachus, do you ever say anything that you haven’t heard, and parroted from the BBC. Why dont you produce some proof of your pathetic little accusation EH?

          • bobmattfran

            Brilliant a Parrot accusing some one else of parroting! Must be a tory parrot that’s lost it way.

        • saffrin

          Labour supported the Rotherham and Oxford racist organisations happily enough.

      • southerner

        Indeed. Sad to see the magazine of Amis, Greene, Waugh et al descend to nothing more than a wing of CCHQ. They might just as well move into Matthew Parker Street.

        Immigration Minister Brokenshire – the Government remains “…focused on controlling migration at sustainable levels.”

        Just vacuous sound bites as usual.

      • artemis in france

        I’m afraid the rot starts at the head. Nelson is a Cameroon through and through. Thank goodness we still have the likes of Murray, Mcdonagh and of course Liddle to keep us all sane.

    • dado_trunking

      Lord almighty, as if the messiah had re-appeared.
      Who is the Carswell chap? Is the that good?

      The result is clear and simple. No one outside the English right wing bubble cares about this news. It affects no one. Some pensioners in some remote location in England are happy now. So what? Carry on infighting – that’s all it is.

      • Colonel Mustard

        Why do you keep commenting about it then? If no-one cares why does it bother you so much?

        • Wessex Man

          You’ve stolen the wind from my sails Colonel! They are absolutely terrified of us and UKip.

        • dado_trunking

          I think you will find they do – you are robbing Peter to pay Paul. So what?

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …are Peter and Paul your sockpuppets, lad?

          • Colonel Mustard

            First no-one cares and now they do? Make your mind up.

            • dado_trunking

              No one outside the petty right wing bubble *cares* about you robbing Peter to pay Paul.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …are those sockpuppets or new goats, lad?

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …you and your army of socialist nutter sockpuppets care about it, laddie.

    • John Wilford

      It will be pretty funny if Ukip lose the Clacton by-election.

      • Wessex Man

        It will be even more fun when you fall flat on your nose.

        • bobmattfran

          It will be even funnier if someone slapped you in the face you pompous prat.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …and even funnier if your chinless ratface gets a good slap, lad.

    • arnoldo87

      I’m sure that your comments are heartfelt, and that they are shared by many of the commenters on this site, but I do wonder what the golden scenario is for UKIP supporters.
      Do you hope for a % share of the vote that gives an absolute majority for UKIP in 2015? Even you must agree that this is a forlorn hope. So maybe a large share of the vote, maybe in the 20% + bracket, that will cost the Tories the election and allow Labour back in?
      This probably is your best long-term hope, since the failure of a Miliband government might allow a right-wing alternative to take power in 2020. But if Dave loses next year the Tories will likely move to the right? If they do it will reduce the chances of a subsequent UKIP victory.
      However, the best case scenario would have the UKIP vote outstripping that of the Conservatives, and maybe taking power in 2020.
      If this did happen, though, there would be a fundamental, and in my view necessary, realignment of politics in the UK to three parties that could truly represent their broad constituencies:-
      1. A true right-wing party
      2. A true socialist party
      3. A Centre Party.
      In this event the Centre Party would, under fptp, win most subsequent elections, or at the very least would retain a share in a coalition.
      Which means that in the long term, UKIP would not be able to enact its manifesto.

      • Colonel Mustard

        So, what’s the golden scenario for modernising Tories? That the grassroots and UKIP will magically disappear and new voters will flock from Labour?

      • the viceroy’s gin

        It hasn’t worked at all like that in Canada, lad.

        You may want to study up on all this, rather than relying on your imagination to determine these future outcomes.

        • arnoldo87

          Imagination, ginnie?
          At least you can spell it.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …is that gibberish supposed to mean something, lad?

  • John Dalton

    Isabel – whenever you write about UKIP the language you use never fails to betray your contempt for them.

    • Dgw201

      Completely agree. Note the use of “boasting”. Stuart Wheeler’s right to be rather pleased with himself; this is politics. This whole episode has exposed how anti UKIP the spectator is, and how – with few exceptions – the columnists all think alike. The irony.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        Well, have a bit of compassion. Their paymasters require this, and the Speccie kids would rather not be out delivering pizzas.

  • SimonToo

    It seems essential that Mr. Cameron should not presume that this is the last defection, otherwise he would just slump back into his slumbers.

    • Wessex Man

      Or go Board Surfing again.

      • Alexandrovich

        To lose one MP may be considered unfortunate, to lose two would be carelessness.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          I don’t think it matters what he cares, at this point. Those who are thinking about leaving are merely marking time. They’ll wait and see how Carswell makes out in the near term, and then make their final decision as appropriate to their situation.

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