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The Yes camp is gaining ground in the Scottish independence referendum

17 August 2014

10:21 AM

17 August 2014

10:21 AM

The Yes camp is closing the gap. That is the clear message from two new opinion polls published this morning.

Both polls – ICM for Scotland on Sunday and Panelbase for the Sunday Herald – show that the undecideds are, at last, starting to make up their minds. But in doing so, the undecideds are going to Yes in greater numbers than they are to No.

That trend is clear, it is helping Yes to close the gap but it has not, as yet, given Yes anything like the support it needs to win the referendum in a month’s time. In the ICM poll, the undecideds are down from 21 per cent in July to just 14 per cent now.

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That change has boosted the No camp by two percentage points, from 45 per cent to 47 per cent, but increased the Yes vote by four points, from 34 per cent to 38 per cent.

In total, the figures are: Yes 38 per cent, No 47 per cent, don’t know 14 per cent. If the undecideds are taken out, the overall figures are Yes 45 per cent (up two) and No 55 per cent (down two).

There is clearly movement here but, with a month to go, Yes Scotland managers will be hoping this trend will increase over the next couple of weeks to give them any chance of winning.

The Panelbase pollsters found Yes on 42 per cent, No on 46 per cent with 12 per cent undecided. When the don’t knows were excluded, the figures were Yes 48 per cent, No 52 per cent – a much, much tighter gap than that found by ICM. The last Panelbase poll, at the end of July, found Yes 46 per cent and No 54 per cent, a gap of eight points, which has been cut in half in the last month.

Panelbase also asked specific questions about the NHS and the Sunday Herald concluded that Alex Salmond’s long-term problem of winning over the female vote could be solved if he managed to persuade them that the NHS would only be saved by independence. Yes Scotland rhetoric started hammering away at the NHS at the end of last week so we can probably expect much more of that in the days and weeks to come.

So, here we have two polls, one giving the No camp a ten point lead and the other giving No a four point lead. It means that the referendum is still there to be won by either side but it also confirms the No camp’s position in the lead – where it has been all campaign.

If the undecideds keep moving to Yes in greater numbers than to No over the next four weeks, then the result is going to be tighter than many in the No camp would like. But it remains the case that the No camp has never been behind in this campaign and it is unlikely to lose its lead unless something happens to change the dynamics of the campaign.

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Show comments
  • http://john.puttergill.org John Puttergill

    Polls are always difficult and seldom conclusive unless the gap is extremely wide.
    I would agree however, that barring a shift in Dynamics there is likely to be a narrow margin against independence.
    In my own blog available at john.puttergill.org I suggest there are some questions the better together campaign need to be asked. I also believe that a yes vote is simply a starting point which could and should result in the UK moving toward a federal constitutions that can better cope with the needs of different groups within the UK

    • Andy Ellis

      Interesting contribution John! I honestly hope you are right about the potential for a Yes vote to push rUK towards a more federal constitution, but I have real doubts it will happen because I see no appetite in England (either amongst people generally or the political parties) to even frame such a system, let alone bring it about. Similarly I am convinced that, irrespective of the jam-tomorrow promises, that the unionist parties will never be able to deliver on their promises of more devolution.

      It seems to me that there is no consensus in rUK to essentially scrap the existing system and construct “de novo” something more progressive, and that’s the only way I can see of achieving the aim. The current system isn’t working and it can’t be fixed, but the inertia and self interest of those who are doing quite nicely, or at least are scared of changing the status quo, militates against the kind of change you and I probably both see as necessary.

      • http://john.puttergill.org John Puttergill

        Yes it is difficult to see the rUK politicians being able to deliver on their promises … would actually be undemocratic for them to do so given the opinion of the rest of the people in the UK.

        But it is time Scotland woke up … the enabling legislation does not commit the UK Parliament to accepting a Yes vote … In spite of the question being straight forward it is actually about opening negotiations … neither party is actually bound by the referendum result but rather by the result of negotiations … Scotland needs to wake up … and decide if they want someone to be allowed to negotiate on their future or simply rely on whatever hand outs they receive from Westminster … that is the actual question being asked on the ballot paper!

        • Andy Ellis

          Not sure I agree with you here; UK governments will negotiate the settlement with the Scottish government, and given the timetable of elections for both Holyrood and Westminster, these might change in either or both places in the period between a Yes vote and formal “iDay” 18 months later.

          I can foresee no circumstances in which the rUK parliament would “not accept” a Yes vote; the pressure to conclude negotiations will of course be huge, but whatever the ups and downs of the negotiating process, people of good faith on both sides and economic pragmatism will prevail and a deal will be done.

          It isn’t a case of relying on UK hand-outs; give the Scots some credit at least! There is a precedent for much of the process, and where novel issues crop up, they will be solved, whether on currency, Trident or asset splitting and sharing. The ballot paper ISN’T second guessing the eventual detailed outcome, it’s simply a Yes/No to start the process.

  • rjbh

    Scotland turning to the Yes… with good reason

  • Proinsias

    I keep hearing on the Television debates about how Ireland separated from the UK and there were no real issues. Just to clarify, Ireland never separated, it was partitioned and broke up and 26 counties separated not all 32. Also, I also keep hearing about the “common travel area”. There is a case this week in the republic where a migrant could not travel to the UK for an abortion simply because the “common travel area” did not apply to her. She had to wait in the republic and the State delivered the child by section. In the 80’s where I worked in London, despite the “common travel are” I still had to speak to Special Branch Officers and fill out Prevention of terrorism form, (which I had not a problem doing). Also there is Border Control between Britian and Ireland. Just get a ryanair flight and you will need to provide Passport ID at Airports. And there are inspections on the trains from Dublin to Belfast. And the border can se sealed in an instance, as in the case of Foot and Mouth.

  • https://sites.google.com/site/deanjackson60/home Dean Jackson

    The concept of Union has always meant security from outside invasion. What else would bring two diverse cultures together, the Celts of Scotland and the Anglo-Saxon Normans of England? And the threat of foreign invasion is more subtle today, even unseen, because the enemy is weak in numbers, hence the enemy’s need to conceal its identity. Who is this enemy that threatens Britain?

    The enemy is within and without, and are Marxists who’ve co-opted the political parties of the West, including the West’s leading institutions, from the media to religion. We know this to be true not only because we were warned of the enemy within by KGB defector Major Anatoliy Golitsyn in 1962, but because the West’s institutions failed to warn its populations that the collapse of the USSR (and East Bloc nations) was a strategic disinformation operation, as proved by the West’s failure to not only verify the collapse, but de-Communize the Soviet Armed Forces officer corps (which was 90% Communist Party officered in late 1991), and failure to de-mobilize the six-million vigilantes that assisted the Soviet Ministry of Interior and militia to control the populations in the larger Soviet cities.

    The West’s fate depended on verification of the collapse of the USSR, verification’s absence proving co-option of the West’s institutions. On the Soviet side, there could be no collapse when (1) the Soviet Armed Forces officer corps remained Communist Party dominated; and (2) six-million vigilantes continued to control the population.

    In order for Scotland to decide on Union or independence, Scots must be armed with all the information that’s necessary to make the correct decision. The co-opted media will not present the facts as laid out above.

    • Tokopol

      Dafuq?

  • Jonathan Burns

    Your not quoting Panelbase polls are you?
    One they are usually commissioned by Yes supporters and point two the SNP infiltrated them to deliberately give an impression of Yes doing better.

    • Andy Ellis

      I’d be careful the good folk at Panelbase don’t take exception to your allegations that they have been infiltrated! Should we ignore all the polls commissioned by and paid for by pro-union organisations and newspapers too?

      Companies tend to take a dim view of their reputations being trashed…might be an idea for you to have your evidence ready in case they as you to put up or shut up?

      • Jonathan Burns

        Oh I am scared!
        Typical Cybernat threats.
        I very much doubt Panelbase wants anyone taking a hard look at the people it has signed up.

        • Andy Ellis

          It’s not a threat, simply an observation that making such allegations in public might not be all that wise unless you’re very sure of your facts. The fact you take it as a threat and trot out the intellectually lazy cybernat line says it all really, and emphasises the point made elsewhere; the negativity of the No campaign and its more unpleasant “britnat” supporters will have done more to bring about a Yes vote than just about another single factor. Keep it up!

          • Jonathan Burns

            Yes is so positive, isn’t Salmond trying to scare people into voting Yes by claiming the Scottish NHS a devolved power is threatened. The SNP are always using Tory scare stories. Cybernats can barely hide their Anglophobia and oil paranoia.
            Yes camp are even claiming England will take revenge against Scotland if she votes No for daring to consider independence.

            • Andy Ellis

              The reason the NHS story has traction is that continued austerity will have a knock on effect on what the Scottish Government can spend, since the block grant will likely be reduced, irrespective of whether the NHS in Scotland is devolved. To try and insulate NHS spending would require cuts elsewhere, unless of course Scots had control of all the financial levers post a Yes vote when they can decide all their own priorities.

              The Anglophobia and oil paranoia are just evidence free smears. The SNP itself and the broader Yes movement is full of English people working for independence, and polls show that the majority of immigrants support Yes, probably because they see independence as normal and have experience of the SG doing a fairly good job when compared with the Coalition or the odious NuOneNation Labour project.

              How else are we to take the unionist threats about refusing a Currency Union, which would simply represent spite and be economically damaging to BOTH sides? Remember the Better Together staffers themselves coined the term “Project Fear” and it does exactly what it says on the tin. Even many on the No side concede the negative campaign has been a failure and counter-productive.

            • Andy Ellis

              Also on the matter of whether threats are being issued, I’d refer you to the headlines in both The Times and The Herlad:

              https://twitter.com/Lawlor1John/status/501984846152208384/photo/1

              So tell us again about threats to take revenge being paranoia…?

      • Newton Unthank

        Should we ignore all the polls commissioned by and paid for by pro-union organisations and newspapers too?

        There is a certain demographic which is determined to ignore or denigrate any and all polls which happen to conflict with their existing views. I think we can readily imagine Mr Burns being only too happy to accept the Panelbase poll if it had shown support for Independence declining…

        • Andy Ellis

          Cognitive dissonance is strong in most #projectfear acolytes; I hope Panelbase do go for him! 😉

  • novainvicta

    If you read my posting I said starting with passports many institutions are shared and that is where the billions will come into it just moving trident to another part of the UK will be hundreds of millions.
    If in ten years ALL Scottish people are measurably better off then the Yes vote is the right one but unfortunately I doubt that will happen rich will get richer but the poor will remain so.

    • Andy Ellis

      Obviously I disagree. I’d need a lot of convincing of the billions you insist it will cost – seems like a vague large amount plucked out of the aether to me. The answer with respect to Trident of course is simply to cancel it and spend the money on something more worthwhile; we might be able to afford some planes for our new carriers then, or to give our service personnel decent pay and conditions huh?

      I’m fairly convinced Scots will certainly be no worse off, and the likelihood is they’ll be significantly better off independent. I also think it would be a welcome kick in the rear for the creaking, archaic UK, though I understand that many in the rest of the UK and many No voters in Scotland, are happy with the status quo, or sincerely think the unionists will deliver change.

      300 years of union, and all the oil in the North Sea have only produced a society where 1 in4 Scots children live in poverty. We can and should do better, and if a Yes vote makes tackling issues like that easier, I’m all for it.

  • nae a belger

    As a supporter of secession I actually suspect that No will win but I reckon it will be so close (think 52-48 to 54-46%) that the referendum will merely pose more questions than answers.
    No-one seems to ask why is there such dissatisfaction as to have the support to break up the Union into the 40%’s.(Can anyone imagine 40% of Bavarians wishing to leave Germany? )How can that be dealt with in the context of having to manage reasonable English distaste at the devolution settlement and variances in service provision across the UK?
    How does Westminster propose to square that circle? How do they get significant numbers of Scots to buy into Britishness again? Better Together/No Thanks have fought to win, and no doubt it has been effective, but I fear a Pyrrhic victory where they win but due to fear of uncertainty rather than any love of the Union.

    • Andy Ellis

      I think Sir Tom Devine’s eloquent piece in the Guardian speaks for many Scots who have made a similar journey, and are now supporting a Yes vote. Like you I’m convinced that Westminster can’t square the circle; even if the unionist parties could come up with a coherent plan for more devolution, they have zero chance of getting it through Westminster.

      With a month to go it looks too close to call, which in itself is pretty surprising given the commanding lead the No camp had at the start of the campaign. We can be sure of one thing however, a No vote is simply independence deferred as far as most Yes voters are concerned – the aspiration isn’t going to go away. Indeed, seeing the energy and positive case put forward by Yes, in marked contrast to the dismal campaign run by the self-styled “Project Fear”, it’s safe to predict that all a No vote will do will be to show in short order that the unionist have no appetite for delivering on its promises of devo-jam tomorrow. When Scots see that, and the growing tide of UKIP, brexit enthusiasts, further austerity and NHS privatising Tories sharpening their knives, a further referendum is all but inevitable.

      • nae a belger

        Its not just surprising that it’s too close to call it’s actually the biggest indictment of the Union.
        There has been 307 years of Union, they have had plenty time to create a British identity and national vision that people on the island can sign up to. The fact that after all this time 40+% don’t sign up is a shocking advertisement for the British state.
        BTW – hope all well in Chichester.

        • Andy Ellis

          Indeed. I’m a fan of the Derek Bateman line: “Britain is not my country” – I just don’t get the Scots who feel a dual identity, never have and never will. I want no part of it. as out Catalan friends say, “Catalonia is not Spain”. Amen to that.

          All is well in deepest, darkest blue Sussex. UKIP is on the rise. It gives me the boak. 😉

  • novainvicta

    The SNP and the “Yes” campaign have not considered for one moment the Northern Irish, Welsh or English in terms of the rest of the UK in any manner should they win. The sometimes angry bile blames just the English yet any seperation will effect the rest of the UK equally including if Mr Salmond refused to honour the Scottish % of national debt if the UK government refuses the use of sterling.
    Across the current union we are inter-dependent and the whole unravelling of that would take years its not just in Scotlands hands to decide which bits to keep and which bits to not keep.
    This unravelling will put the cost up for both sides and run into billions of wasted money and in the end of the day for what politicians egos!

    500,000 non-Scots live in Scotland and 800,000 Scots live in the rest of the UK these are not insignificant numbers and show the union at work so how is the passport issue to be resolved for starters.

    • Andy Ellis

      The passport issue will be resolved as stated in the White Paper; it’s not rocket science. Those Scots abroad who want a Scottish passport and are entitled, can apply for one according to criteria that are already widely accepted elsewhere. It will hardly be an issue unless of course the swivel eyed UKIP loons manage to persuade enough little Englanders to leave the EU. Non-Scots living in Scotland, or indeed Scots who don’t want Scottish passports will be able to keep their British passports, they’ll just be resident in Scotland, as I would be a Scottish passport holder resident in England.

      I doubt the extra costs will run into billions somehow, but it’s of a piece with the usual britnat hysteria that the sky will fall if Scots dare to vote Yes. Perhaps you should reflect that if the vote IS Yes, that’s exactly the kind of negative, scaremongering nonsense that convinced many Scots to change to Yes. Of course independence will affect both sides, but Scots can and should be more concerned about securing their own future than acting as the airbag for the rest of the UK.

  • Iain Hill

    Like a Yes vote!

  • ohforheavensake

    Erm… I’m Scottish, and I’d vote yes: but it strikes me that the variations you quote are all within the normal range.

    So the headline and the article should really be “Independence Polls stay roughly where they were’, which is less exciting, but more true.

  • reggystray

    Got to laugh, the polls are lying until it suits them.

  • sunnydayrider

    Spot on Blindsideflanker. Just think in September we could all be doing a Dr. King. “Free at last, free at last. Thank God almighty I’m free at last.” And all you Jocks can F— off back behind the wall.

    • Denis_Cooper

      What a typical English village Idiot.

      You think so little of the Scots, and yet you positively want to give them sovereign control of the northernmost third of your home island, its land seas and air. You do realise that the referendum is not about splitting off Scotland and its population and towing it away to another part of the world?

      And apparently you don’t even know where “the wall” runs, you fool, you would be ceding a chunk of England to Scotland.

      • Wessex Man

        Denis, I must say that I think sunnydayrider’s comment a little over the top, only a little minf bearing in mind some of the Yes supporters comments. the comment was probably made with an excess of Iain hill, Andy Ellis and Justejudsxulyionis itchitis.

        • Denis_Cooper

          Still a typical English village idiot, which being English myself I am allowed to say.

          • Andy Ellis

            I’m scottish, but I’m allowed to say it too,because apparently we’re Better Together! 😉

            • Denis_Cooper

              No, if you said it then it would be “racist”.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    For centuries the Scots have been fighting, clamouring, campaigning for independence (aka freedom), and now it’s being offered to them on a plate, they are hesitating. Where’s William Wallace when you really need him?

    • justejudexultionis

      The lack of vision and cowardice found in some Scottish people is quite remarkable. Many Scots still prefer the security blanket of Westminster to the chance to assert their own identity and preserve Scottish values of social justice and freedom.

      • Wessex Man

        are your remarks because they don’t agree with you? You will have to live with all Scots after the referendum, do grow up.

      • AtMyDeskToday

        The last time I checked it was called democracy, live with it.
        BTW…I’m voting yes and will accept whatever outcome with good grace.

  • flippit

    ‘Yes’ haven’t yet been in touching distance of ‘no’, haven’t led in a single poll, you can’t say it’s tight. However, looks like the arguments as such have been well and truly aired, those Scots who vote yes know what they’ll be getting – and not. In the end, we go with the flow and pick up the thread after the referendum. It will be refreshing in a way, and we’ll very soon get over it. A lot of English don’t even know what the union is and if it is rejected, then it wasn’t working.

    • Andy Ellis

      If you believe the polls are authoritative, I have some magic beans you might be interested in buying…? Do some research on the polls before the last Holyrood election… still feeling confident….? Single polls tell you little, but the average of polls over a period can be useful..and what that shows is a steady erosion of the No lead from overwhelming to (when don’t knows are excluded) within the margin of error.

      In my experience most people in England know little and care less about the indyref. Dan Snow’s pleas notwithstanding, a generalised warm and fuzzy desire to retain the union isn’t much of a basis on which to persuade undecideds in Scotland to vote No. The unrelenting negativity of #projectfear is what will eventually do for the union, whether in September, or sometime later.

  • Jupiter

    I’m sticking with my prediction of No 58%, Yes 42%

    It will be great to see Salmond’s fat greetin face when he loses.

    • Andy Ellis

      Here;s hoping your predictive abilities match those of all those who forecast an overwhelming victory for Labour right up to voting day for the last Holyrood election.

      It will be great to rub your noses in it when Yes win! 😉

      • Paul Robson

        Would be if this was actually true, but the polls showed the swing way before it happened, as you can see in the listings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Scottish_Parliament_election,_2011

        • Andy Ellis

          I know the poll numbers switched a few months before, but the britnats and especially Scottish Nu Labour drones were still confidently predicting a Labour landslide even days before the vote.

          • Paul Robson

            Oh, I agree, but they always do, don’t they. In UKGE they always claim this up until the point the other lot gets 320 MPs 🙂 I cannot recall an MP ever admitting “that election was a disaster”.

            A lot of Yes people are claiming they are going to win (trying to generate momentum probably), realistically at the moment No will win. (I would like Yes, personally), probably quite comfortably.

            The recent polling is interesting, but no more than that at present, and unfortunately unless it accelerates it isn’t going to change the result. There’ve been a couple of other times where Yes has moved and it hasn’t translated into momentum for the campaign. Still needs a game changer.

            The other concern is the general trend in elections for the position of the status quo to improve as elections get closer, though this is not as well known in indyrefs as it is in GEs for obvious reasons ….

    • justejudexultionis

      And yours when you realise that even a no vote in September won’t be the end of the issue. So-called ‘devo max’ is no more than a staging post on the road to final independence.

      SAOR ALBA

  • Patrick James

    Makes one wonder if most declared undecideds are merely Yes being dipolmatic about their beliefs…

  • CraigStrachan

    60%-plus win for No on the night.

  • Cymrugel

    Well this is a pleasant surprise; an acknowledgement that its going to be a close thing.

    I personally support Yes but think it will be a NO win, but so close as to be down to even a single percentage point. It is also possible that Yes will have a similarly tight victory.

    It really is too close to call and I have been disappointed at the coverage in the Spectator.

    Instead of analysis and debate we have so far had little but No campaign propaganda and frankly silly pops at Alex Salmond (I’m really not interested in the mans looks, weight problem or personality); that’s before you get to some of the frothing at the mouth nonsense below the line.

    This constants sharply with the high quality debate in Scotland and the hearteningly respectful nature of the exchanges.

    Let’s have more of the same in the run-up to the vote.

    • saffrin

      The only good thing likely to come out of an independent Scotland is England, Wales and N. Ireland will never have a Labour Government again.
      With Scotland’s 47 Labour MP’s kicked out of Westminster they and the SNP will end up wrecking what should be a great nation.
      Labour did it to the UK when both PM’s were Scot’s, what do you think Scotland’s chances are when the entire country is run by Jocks.

      • Andy Ellis

        Nope, sorry just plain wrong. Scots MP’s have only decided Westminster outcomes in 2 of the past 67 years. Whether rUK will be a great nation is something you have to sort out for yourselves. Scotland’s chances could hardly be any worse than they are now, or promise to be in the future shackled to the ramshackle, regressive, crypto-medieval shambles that the britnat elites seem quite happy to perpetuate.

        No doubt the Scots will do just fine thanks. The sky won’t fall down, and taking the risks inherent in independence is more than worth the alternative of hoping for the best staying within the UK as it dismantles the NHS, renews Trident, and continues its support of foreign intervention and wars abroad.

        • saffrin

          In case you haven’t noticed there is a political revolution in England at least with the rise of UKIP.
          SNP supporters aren’t the only ones peed-off. The difference is, we know Brussels controls Westminster whereas you think it’s the Etonians and Oxbridge.

          All the Etonians and Oxbridge do is spin us a yarn about they’re all different.

          • Andy Ellis

            I currently live in Sussex; trust me I know about the rise of UKIP who polled > 30% here in last local elections. I’d sooner be controlled by Brussels than the Bullingdon Club yahoos, still less with any input from the swivel eyed loons in UKIP.

            It’s up to the folk in the rest of the UK to sort out their problems; if, as I hope they do, Scots vote Yes we probably have more chance of bringing about change to the system than if they vote No, which will simply entrench the existing squalid status quo.

            Labour haven’t got a prayer of winning the next GE, and even if they did who can tell the difference between them and the Tories anyway?

            • saffrin

              Says the man paid in euro’s.

              • Andy Ellis

                Last time I looked the currency in Sussex wasn’t euro’s!?

                • Fergus Pickering

                  Euros, old fruit. No apostrophe.

                • justejudexultionis

                  These people they do abuse the Saxon genitive!

                • Fergus Pickering

                  I fight a constant battle here.

                • Newton Unthank

                  Saffrin is, I think, referring to the interesting legend that the EU pays people to troll online discussions to push a pro-European agenda. Anyone who is does not toe the UKIP line is suspect.

                  I am honestly not making this up.

                • Andy Ellis

                  Nothing would surprise me when it came to the swivel eyed loons in UKIP …probably the only correct call Cameron has ever made! 😉

            • flippit

              As long as you go back up there. You belong up there.

              • Andy Ellis

                Ah yes, doesn’t take long for the anti-Scottish bigotry to come out into the open from under it’s rock huh? Figures.

            • justejudexultionis

              As a Scot living in Sussex you should be voting for UKIP. There is evidence that continued UKIP successes south of the border would drive more Scots to vote for independence. I call upon all Scots in England to vote UKIP in order to hasten Scottish independence.

              SAOR ALBA

              • Wessex Man

                Saor Alba to you too but don’t you think you should get up there and support your fellow Scots by canvassing!

              • Denis_Cooper

                I call upon all Scots in England to contact their friends and relations still living in Scotland and tell them that separation from England is not a good idea.

                • Andy Ellis

                  Doesn’t seem to have been a roaring success for Dan snow’s lame campaign, or for Rory the Tory’s cancelled project for a human chain along Hadrian’s Wall or the even more bonkers new project to build what appears to be a sheep pen on the border. 😉

            • Iain Hill

              You get the message. Why do so few others? Vested interests?

        • flippit

          Wouldn’t be too sure the sky won’t fall in, metaphorically speaking, Scotland will be in big trouble and relying on everybody else to get itself sorted. Pity the SNP have no friends.

        • Fergus Pickering

          The Scots would do fine. They would be poorer f course, but hey, what’s poverty beside FREEDOM?

          • Denis_Cooper

            There’s no compelling reason to believe that the Scots would be poorer, so there’s no “of course” about it.

        • Fraziel

          What rubbish. We will do just fine? Massive tax rises required just to maintain current spending levels never mind whats required to fund the white paper wish list, mass immigration of unskilled migrants including mass islamic immigration, no central bank despite having a huge banking sector meaning another crash would ruin the country, no input on fiscal policy, easy target for terrorists. Permanently left wing quasi socialist government, nordic style taxes on NON nordic style wages. Its a no from me.

      • Cymrugel

        Go and have a wee lie down in a dark room.
        Take your tablets and the voices in your head will soon stop.

      • terregles2

        There are many English people living in Scotland who are campaigning for YES, There are also English people within the SNP. The education minister is English therefore an independent Scotland could in the future have an English First Minister.

      • Newton Unthank

        what do you think Scotland’s chances are when the entire country is run by Jocks.

        Possibly a little better than being run by the gaggle of troughing Eton/Oxbridge PPE graduates we refer to as the Cabinet.

      • Tom

        Firstly, no one the world over, except for the English use the term ” Jocks” it is purely an English thing and nothing to do with Scotland. What a wonderful thought, to be free from imposed Tory governments, even though it would now be impossible to rectify the destruction of the country,s industry, as undertaken thirty years ago. There is something very distasteful associated with blind nationalism that exists in the UK. You will hear examples of it often, my English Passport, The English Union Jack, when abroad, comments like ” you would,nt find that back in England”. If like myself and many others, you are disgusted by narrow minded blind nationalism, getting rid of it by metro ducting a border crossing might upon reflection be a practical answer, after all, it does not seem to matter how often you try shaming these people, they will continue to nsist that they have an English Passport. OK, I give up, let them have what they want so much, their English passport, English currency, English Queeen

    • Inverted Meniscus

      Will you accept the result if it is a ‘No’ vote and pack up, shut up and go home?

      • Wessex Man

        of course he won’t!

      • justejudexultionis

        It won’t be that. Devo-max is just one more stepping stone towards eventual independence.

      • Cymrugel

        I am home.
        If we get a yes vote will you pack up and piss off back to London?

        • Inverted Meniscus

          Already there laddie.

        • Wessex Man

          Charming but why change the habits of a lifetime!

          • Cymrugel

            Unlike your own agreeable comment of course.

            Just paying you back in the same coin son.

    • Shenandoah

      ‘Gaining’ does not mean ‘a close thing’. It won’t be, you know: the gap’s too big.

      • Cymrugel

        Very well.
        We shall see

  • CrashDive

    Panelbase polls are paid for by the SNP and have always had it down as a tight race, compared to other polls. Panelbase are worthless.

    The ICM poll shows no real change.

    This article has been dredged up to get the ‘NO’ vote out.

    • Wessex Man

      how cynical but probably correct.

  • Denis_Cooper

    Scotland on Sunday has an article mooting that if the Scots voted for independence then the English might turn away from their exports:

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scots-brands-could-face-buy-english-backlash-1-3511976

    “Scots brands could face ‘buy English’ backlash”

    Personally I don’t think that would be very likely to happen just because the Scots had voted for independence, but it would be pretty much certain to happen if there was a “yes” vote and then the SNP persisted with its nonsense about Scotland not paying off its fair share of the UK’s debt.

    Why should English people who were being expected to pay off the part of the UK debt which funded public spending in Scotland to the benefit of the Scots continue to buy anything from the Scots if they could possibly avoid it?

    Exports to the rest of the UK account for about a third of Scottish GDP.

  • andagain

    That trend is clear

    Excel has a statistics package. Perhaps you would like to use it to quantify that trend, and its reliability.

    Because I see two horizontal lines with a lot of noise.

  • Archibald Heatherington

    I think most of us are going to be unhappy with the result whatever it is.

    • Damaris Tighe

      You mean because it’s either independence or devo max?

      • justejudexultionis

        Devo-max is surely a staging post on the road to independence.

  • Denis_Cooper

    The Survation poll which shortly preceded these two moved in the opposite direction.

  • Smithersjones2013

    You can’t make any judgements on a couple snapshot polls. This thread is a pointless waste of time….

  • The Wiganer

    If you look at the graph above you can draw one of two conclusions:

    1. Scots are very indecisive. on 3/8 undecideds were down to 7% 10 days later they were 23%. The yes and no votes are bouncing around by as much as 10% week to week. Therefore masses of scots are changing their minds week by week without much actually happening.

    2. The pollsters are not interviewing enough people and their crappy analysis is a waste of time and money.

    Personally I’m with number 2. But it’s not my money so hey,ho!

    • Denis_Cooper

      It’s number 2.

      • Angus McLellan

        There was a thing on in Edinburgh yesterday (& today?) run by ScotCen/What Scotland Thinks involving pollsters and pundits. The subtext of the twitter-reporting from that agreed with you. “Up to one-third of voters will never have voted before” was one pre-emptive excuse from a pollster that stuck in my mind. If you don’t care for that, they had others, but none quite so memorable.

        • CraigStrachan

          Many of them 16 and 17 year olds, who seem likely to reject the narrow nationalism of the SNP.

          It would be ironic if they provided the margin of victory for “No”, wouldn’t it?

          • Andy Ellis

            It’s unlikely the cohort of 16 & 17 year olds would either be large enough, or vote overwhelmingly one way enough, to change the outcome either way.

            • Alexsandr

              or get out of bed in time to vote 🙂

              • Iain Hill

                How do they vote in Snobtown?

          • Iain Hill

            You are reading the wrong newspapers.

  • HookesLaw

    As UKPR report – these polls show no real change form previous results… ”neither a significant shift from the longer term trend.”
    Other polls showed a move to YES post the debates.

  • swatnan

    Looks like the radicals are making up ground against the forces of the status quo and complacency and ruling elite that doesn’t like change because their power is taken away and given to the People..

    • Alexsandr

      well if its a yes then Labour are out of power for a long long time. Don’t see them getting a majority any time soon without the Scots vote.

      • swatnan

        If PR/AV is introduced by Labour in 2015 then its all to play for in future.

        • Alexsandr

          yeah. lots of kipper MP’s

        • Colonel Mustard

          If Labour win the election.

        • Inverted Meniscus

          As if those bastards are going to dilute any electoral advantage they might gain. Unequal constituency boundaries are the only reason that coterie of filth get themselves elected.

      • Denis_Cooper

        Historically Labour governments have only depended on the votes of MPs elected in Scotland on a minority of occasions, and on the current poll ratings Miliband would probably get an overall majority at the next general election even if all the MPs elected in Scotland stayed at home.

        • Alexsandr

          Well as long as Scottish MP’s are barred from voting on devolved matters. Welsh and NI ones too.

      • Andy Ellis

        Scots MP’s have rarely had any impact on Westminster results in past 60 years: their exclusion in 1964 would have turned a Labour majority into a 1 seat Tory majority, but the Labour govt only lasted 18 months anyway. In the second of the 1974 elections Scots MP’s gave Labour a 3 seat majority, but if you excluded them, Labour were still the biggest party & could have governed in coalition with the Liberals. Finally in 2010 Scot’s Labour MP’s exclusion would have given Tories a majority, rather than necessitated the current Coalition.

        So, for 65 of the last 67 years Scots MP’s would have made zero difference. The Scots however have endured governments of parties they didn’t vote for large amounts of time, particularly in recent decades.

        Don’t try and use Scots MP’s as an excuse for the failure of the English left; we aren’t your airbag!

        • Wessex Man

          Yes they have, the Scottish Taliban of the Blair years in which the Scots Labour MPs lead by brother Brown outnumbered all others in the most important place of Government The Cabinet. We all know how those wonderful years ended as well!

          This was why the Uk press dubbed them the Scottish Taliban, not because they particularly hated the Scots- the UK Press hate everyone!

          • Andy Ellis

            Try interacting with the facts rather than what the voices in your head tell you, then we might be spared your spittle flecked anti-Scottish racism. The point in question isn’t about your somewhat odd take on the Scottish Taliban, as tho’ the rest of the Labour movement somehow weren’t to blame for the whole odious, principle free NuOneNation Labour project.

            To repeat, the fact is the number of Scots Labour MP’s just isn’t that relevant or important, unless the result is on a knife edge. In the few instances when that is the case, then those are the breaks; if you don’t like it, well…tough! Make sure you have the system changed, or try and guilt Scots Labour MP’s into not voting on matters that only affect rUK – after all that’s what SNP MP’s at Westminster do!

            Your sad attachment to the discredited “it’s all the fault of Scottish Labour MP’s” simply exposes you as one of those who cannot be reasoned with. Well done!

            • Wessex Man

              The facts that i quoted are correct before jumping on your high horse, i suggest you check Hansard. With regards to English Labour MPs, they were too busy biting the hand that feeds them.

              Remind me, who was it who saved the World?

              • Andy Ellis

                Your facts however aren’t in the least relevant to the issue under discussion however, which was whether Labour could get a majority without Scots Labour MP’s.

                So, again…well done you for answering a question nobody asked. Are you a politician perchance?

    • saffrin

      Now you know that isn’t true with Salmond’s intention of joining the EU.
      The Scottish people will have about as much say in what goes on in Brussels as the Estonians.
      Jeez, even Obama and Putin have more control over Brussels than the people of Europe and neither of them are in the EU or elected by any EU citizen.
      Scottish Independence is a myth Salmond will happily sell those stupid enough to believe him.

      • swatnan

        I have little faith in Old Estonians and Posh Boys. And getting personal over Salmonds expanding waistline will get you nowhere.
        anyone of middle age will know the difficulties of controlling your girth. Did you know that all of Britains Top Companies are Foreign Owned, thanks to the Tories.

        • Colonel Mustard

          Who are these “Old Estonians”? Where are the Old Latvians and Old Lithuanians?

          Labour is full of Posh Boys (and Girls) too, most of them communists pretending to be socialists, Fabian wolves in sheep clothing and all that.

          • Kerr Mudgeon

            LOL!

        • Inverted Meniscus

          Do you mean that all those foreign investors said “oh look, there’s a Tory government let’s buy some British companies’. Are you really such an idiot? Do you believe there were no acquisitions by foreign companies between 1997 and 2010? Has it ever occurred to you that British companies have substantial overseas holdings? You really put the ‘I’ in idiot.

        • saffrin

          The Tories may have sold off the Royal Mail but it was Labour that set it in motion when they split the Post Office/Royal Mail into two separate companies.
          Why do you think they did that if not to sell it off?
          And let’s be fair, in the thirteen years Labour were in power they did not revoke one single Maggy Thatcher law or renationalise one single industry.
          Now do you understand why so many ex-Labour voters have deserted that party of two faced lying evil?

        • Chris Morriss

          Old Estonians: Hah! It’s all a load of old Baltics to me.

          • AJH1968

            We are certainly facing formidable intellectuals on this
            thread. If they do vote yes I certainly hope they take Brown with them.

  • CharlietheChump

    Yawn.

  • saffrin

    Oh well, that’s the end of Scotland then. Give it five years and they’ll be begging Brussels for a bailout only to find they’re not even in the EU let alone anything else.
    With no currency of their own, no assets or future, Scotland will be the new Greece of Europe.
    Bust and broke with Alex Salmond living in his state funded guarded palace, creaming off the taxpayer and dreaming of the last Scottish king that legged it to France.
    And with Alex claiming he’s no racist, where are all the Scottish people going to find the money to fund their unemployment when Salmond gives their jobs and homes to his third world immigrants?

    • Wessex Man

      That’s completely over the top, while I hope Scotland votes for independence, I wouldn’t gloat if it went wrong which I don’t think it will. I do however think that they would learn pretty quickly that they have to cut and cut again their culture of non jobs.

      • saffrin

        I hope Scotland stay part of the UK, if however they choose to go will a lying fool like Alex Salmond then they deserve all they get.
        Which will be nothing from Brussels, nothing from us

        • smilingvulture

          whos us?

          • saffrin

            The rest of the UK of course.
            One thing in their favour is by becoming foreign Scotland will qualify for Oxfam’s attention.

            • Wessex Man

              You really are quite sad arn’t you?

            • smilingvulture

              if were so poor,why are you so bitter about Scotland being independent

            • terregles2

              What a nasty remark. Whether Scotland becomes independent or not I will have only goodwill towards my friends and family and everyone else living in England.
              Why would you wish to be spiteful towards your nearest neighbouring country.

        • terregles2

          You seem to be saying that you will tolerate us as long as we choose to be governed in the way that you think is best for us. If we choose to be independent like nearly every other world country then you will wish us only bad luck and a miserable future.
          We are actually voting on the future governance of Scotland not on any particular government. There is quite a difference.

    • The_Missing_Think

      “… no assets or future… ”
      _____

      More than = more than… alright?

      “The paper concluded that Scotland had “more than enough resources” if it had the powers of independence.”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22607827

      • saffrin

        “Adding a geographical share of Scotland’s North Sea output increases Scottish
        GDP per head from 99% to about 118% of the UK average.”
        So much for the BBC. Maybe someone should point out that 99% can only increse by 1% not the 19% this idiot reported.
        If that paragraph is anything to go by, I’d stop getting your information off the BBC if I were you.

        • The_Missing_Think

          It’s not a third world country, as your “no assets or future” quote implies, its got many, secure replenishable assets:

          Whiskey Industry
          Fishing Industry
          Two tourist mountain ranges Industry
          Vast, huge surplus hosepipe water.
          Very windy, needs a new design…
          … invented TV and phone ^^design^^
          Undrilled Oil & Gas resereves
          Nuke base for rent.

          Get real, it’s rosy, not bleak.

          • Alexsandr

            and they can spell whisky

            • The_Missing_Think

              It’s not an exam, that’s why you wrote “and” instead of “And”… remember?

              • Alexsandr

                Maybe i was carrying on your sentence.

                • The_Missing_Think

                  Nope, I used a full stop.

                • saffrin

                  ..and

                • The_Missing_Think

                  … agreed.

          • saffrin

            Scotland’s fishing industry can’t be up to much if England’s is anything to go by. Desiccated by Brussels, we now have to import most of our fish off the Spanish after Brussels gave them the keys to our fishing grounds.
            Or should I say our governments that haven’t been working in the UK’s best interests these past forty years+?
            Treasonouse bas*ds.

          • saffrin

            Just joshing. As in, two paddies went into a bar..

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Scotch whisky
            Irish whiskey
            Check the labels at your local booze retail outlet.

        • Denis_Cooper

          Obviously 99% of the UK average can increase beyond 100%
          of the UK average. Some parts of the UK are below the UK average, while some parts are above the UK average, that is inevitable unless all parts are exactly at the average.

    • Cymrugel

      If you have nothing sensible to contribute, why don’t you just go away?

      • Fergus Pickering

        I thought that was very cogent.

    • Chris Morriss

      I think that this bleak scenario might be realistic.
      My head says that the Scots should stay with the UK, but my heart says that they’re a load of overweight, drink-addled whingers that deserve the doom that so many of them are rushing toward.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        I’ll put you down as “Undecided” then?

      • terregles2

        Don’t sit on the fence there tell us what you think.

    • Shenandoah

      Thanks for that. I really enjoyed it.

  • cambridgeelephant

    Getting very tight ! It was said at the start of this business that Salmond was a master at coming from behind to win.

    I still reckon it will break 60% – 40% or thereabout for the Union. But that means the issue will fester. Salmond will claim a moral victory and Cameron will hand him another tranche of powers on demand. Such that Faslane will be about the only Unionist thing left north of Hadrians Wall in five years time.

    Salmond will salami slice the Union out of existence – with of course, full assistance from Dave, Ed and Nick – our every faithful three Westminster stooges.

  • trace9

    Doing this from Scotland (Portree); there’s been a lot of ‘literature’ arriving on the doormat in the last week, qualitatively fairly evenly balanced & I’d say, the No a bit more inviting than the Yes lot. – though ‘no’ is a rather uninviting word. Also a card advising the imminent arrival of my postal voting papers. All this must be having some effect in spurring the undecided. Mair anon, nae doot! One attempted visit from a few Yessers, none from No’ers that I, hem, know about. I’d advise a last-minute barrage aimed at the undecided – ‘did you about know this’, sort of stuff – what Scotland will have under Devo Max, which isn’t being too weel publicised. Virtual Independence without the risks.. Frighten the poor – prob. many of the undecided – about rises in costs of living..

    • Chris Morriss

      Devo max will be about the worst option for the English. The Scots will get nearly everything they asked for, with few of the unwanted consequences.
      The English will be left to pick up the bill as usual.

      • Colonel Mustard

        Sadly I also think it will mean a greater push for English regionalisation by the surviving status quo in Westminster as the best means to head off calls for English devolution. The words cake and eat it loom large.

      • http://batman-news.com Angus McIonnach

        Don’t worry – Devo Max isn’t on offer. The British parties are aiming to give the Scottish Parliament more tax raising responsibilities so that people will start to blame the Scottish Parliament for cuts. The tax varying powers on offer are tailored to achieving this outcome.

        Makes sense given that the Scottish Parliament is really a headache for the British parties. Why would they properly empower it?

    • http://batman-news.com Angus McIonnach

      “what Scotland will have under Devo Max”

      Given no British party is offering anything remotely resembling Devo Max, that’d be an interesting speech to hear.

      What is on offer is vague variants of Devo “Here’s Some Limited Income Tax Powers so that when the SNP talk about cuts the British parties can retort ‘raise income tax then’ to them”.

      Devo Enough Rope, if you will.

  • @PhilKean1

    .
    Cameron’s weakness and naivety will be the reason if Scotland goes.

    So it would be unthinkable, and undesirable, for Cameron to do anything other than resign.
    .

    • HookesLaw

      What a preposterous notion founded on your own prejudiced obsessions. Labour started the devolution process. Its a socialist polititian in charge of the No campaign. Its Labour that lost power in Scotland to give a SNP majority in Labour’s devolved parliament.

      • @PhilKean1

        My own prejudices?

        No, purely each case on its own merits.

        As far as I can see, the only concession Cameron didn’t surrender to when he negotiated the referendum terms was offering Salmond the UK Deputy Prime Minister-ship.

      • Denis_Cooper

        “Its Labour that lost power in Scotland to give a SNP majority in Labour’s devolved parliament.”

        So where was your own party, then?

        Oh yes, I remember now, your crap party has been so consistently stupid that it has managed to go from getting over half the votes and seats in Scotland in the 1955 general election to virtual extinction.

        And yet you have the brass neck to blame Labour for losing power to the SNP.

        • Fergus Pickering

          I thought they had about 25% of the vote. Doesn’t sound like extinction to me.

          • Denis_Cooper

            Well, you think wrong; in 2011 the Tories got half that, 12%.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Parliament_general_election,_2011#Votes_summary

            When UKIP support is at that kind of level the Tories deride it, and as it was under a PR system they didn’t even have the excuse that people could say that a vote for a small party like the Tories would be a wasted vote.

            If the worst does happen and the UK is broken up then in my estimation two thirds of the blame for that will lie with the Tory party for allowing these divisions to develop.

            • Fergus Pickering

              You are quite right. I was mistaken. Now tell me this. Is te SNP a left-wing, a right-wing or a centre party?

              • Denis_Cooper

                Why should I tell you that?

                • Fergus Pickering

                  Ah. It’s a state secret, is it? Or perhaps you don’t know. Or perhaps nobody knows.

                • Denis_Cooper

                  If you have a point to make, then make it.

                  I am not here to obediently answer whatever arbitrary
                  time-wasting questions you may care to pose.

                • Fergus Pickering

                  I’ve no idea why you are here but I assume it is to publicise the SNP. That is usually done by spreading knowledge. But not, it appears, in your case. In my opinion the SNP is a racist organisation with one foot firmly in the past and the other in its mouth.But I could be wrong.

                • Denis_Cooper

                  I’ve no idea why you think I’m here to publicise the SNP.

    • Wessex Man

      We must then hope that he stays for another month!

  • Alexsandr

    well if the scots get independance expect much wrangling about the separation and who pays. I think the RUK government will have to be careful about giving too much away.
    If they dont then they will bemand more powers be devolved. OK but first we need to sort out the Barnett Formula and the West Lothian question.

    • Mukkinese

      RUK government?

      I think you mean the U.K. government. The U.K. will still exist if Scotland become independent.

      But you are right, the negotiations if they happen would likely go on for longer than the optimistic eighteen months the SNP claim they should take.

      “Demand more powers”? Those offered under “devo max” are pretty much what an independent Scotland would have in a currency union…

      • Alexsandr

        it cant be a United Kingdom if Scotland leaves, Only England and Scotland were Kingdoms.

        • Mukkinese

          Wrong. The queen is head of state in all the countries of the U.K.

          • Alexsandr

            when was there a kingdom of Wales? or ireland? Both were colonies of England. Scotland was a separate kingdom and the throned merged with James 6/James 1 being the same person. Then the countries merged in the act of union, forming the United Kingdom.

            • saffrin

              Well Sherlock, pre-Roman invasion the UK had a dozen or more kingdoms.

            • Kerr Mudgeon

              There was, of course, a Kingdom of Ireland. It was established in 1542 under Henry VIII and incorporated into the United Kingdom on 1 January 1801.

              • Redmond McDonagh

                And from 1922 until Ireland declared itself a republic, George V, Edward VIII and George VI were officially King of Ireland as well as King of UK

            • Wessex Man

              I don’t really care as long as Scotland votes to go, the Kingdom of England sounds fine to me!

            • montyscoles

              You are confusing the United Kingdom with the Kingdom of Great Britain. The Nationalists do this all the time, they think the Act of Union created the UK, but it didn’t, it created the Kingdom of Great Britain. The United Kingdom was created by the union of Great Britain with Ireland.

        • Denis_Cooper

          It certainly couldn’t be the United of Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland if Scotland left and became a republic, but on the other hand while the Queen continued to be the sovereign of Scotland as well as England, Wales and Northern Ireland she could still style herself the Queen of Great Britain just as James I and VI styled himself the King of Great Britain even though there were still two sovereign parliaments within Great Britain. And of course she might still call herself that even if it was no longer true, just as successive sovereigns continued to claim that they were also the sovereigns of France long after that had ceased to be the case, in fact right up to 1801 as I recall.

        • ButcombeMan

          Do not start that silly debate again, just a waste of effort.

          Ridiculous and childish. Nothing at all to do with the core issues.

          The biggest one being, that Salmond wants to use the English Pound without being in the UK. He is wrong, it is not Scotland’s pound, the Scottish pound , devalued against the English pound over generations, was put to rest by exchange against the English pound 12 to 1 after 1707..

          Scotland has no currency of its own. It has no Central bank. It could start one but Salmond lacks the guts to really untie from the UKs apron strings.

          He will impoverish Scotland, he will cause capital flight, financial industry job losses. He will endanger pensions and savings, be forced to put up taxes, increase unemployment, increase the costs of public administration, increase the price of goods and especially food, increase the cost of mortgages, devalue propertt and cause further emigration of Scotland’s best brains and hardest workers.

          There is no plus for the Scottish people.

          Salmond is strutting his stuff, puffed up with his own importance. Lacking in self awareness of how ridiculous his currency plans are. He should have sorted this core issue out, years ago.

          He is leading the Yes voters, like lemmings, off a cliff, into the Clyde.

    • Wessex Man

      and alongside that an English Parliament.

  • wobble

    Doesn’t matter which way the vote finally goes ,it won’t mean the end of it . The bleating will just continue.

    • JabbaTheCat

      Bleating is the operative term…

  • Blindsideflanker

    Come on the Yes’s.

    Come on you Scots help liberate the English people as well as yourselves from this rotten decadent British state .

    You read Cameron’s piece in the Telegraph about the threat IS poses to us, and you realise that the British establishment are so far behind the curve they are different time zone. He talks of our security, yet it was the British establishment who perpetrated Multiculturalism on us, the very vehicle that has stripped us of our collective security.

    We need an establishment clear out for they are too busy trying to protect their post war consensus than protect our interests. The only way I see that clear out start to happen is if the Scots vote Yes.

    • Mukkinese

      For those who think that UKIP are the answer, they are more “establishment” than the Tories. They are the fringe of conservatism that is so swivel-eyed and extreme that not even the renowned howling loons of the Tory backbenches would have them…

      • Alexsandr

        as opposed to the loons who want an undemocratic EU controlled country with uncoltrolled immigration Now who would they be?

      • Damaris Tighe

        Jolly good.

      • Zionist lackey

        Mukkinese is right. Ukip are more establishment than the Tories. Simply because the Tories have vacated the Conservative ground to Ukip. But where Mukkinese is wrong is in thinking that the Tory Party is still the establishment – or at least the Tory Party that postdated Margaret Thatcher. This baton has been passed to the Left long ago from within the ‘Tory’ party.

        Today the generic term Left, are the establishment, from whatever political party they emerge. All the main political parties are knitted together; which means substantial differences no longer exist.

  • alexicon

    And that’s with a backdrop of all, minus 1 Sunday newspaper, the UK’s press being behind the no camp.
    The propaganda machine is faltering.
    Just think what the result would be if we had a fair democratic vote with proper journalism.

    • Colonel Mustard

      The referendum itself won’t be a “fair democratic vote”? Do you mean if the ‘No’ vote wins it won’t be fair or democratic? Is that going to be the line to justify an ongoing campaign?

      • Inverted Meniscus

        By democratic he means “voting in a manner that suits me” or fascism as it is more appropriately known.

        • Damaris Tighe

          What s/he needs is a People’s Democracy type system where the outcome is guaranteed.

          • Alexsandr

            like the Irish referendum on Lisbon you mean?

            • Damaris Tighe

              If you don’t first succeed then try & try again.

              • Mukkinese

                That the strategy.

                Keep on asking the question until you get the answer that you want.

                The so-called “neverendum” strategy…

      • alexicon

        Read into that what you wish.

        • Colonel Mustard

          No, I’m trying to read into it what you meant which is far from clear.

          What exactly is “Just think what the result would be if we had a fair democratic vote with proper journalism.” meant to suggest?

          What would the result be?

          What is a fair and democratic vote with proper journalism? Are you trying to suggest that voting won’t be fair or democratic because of improper journalism? What evidence do you have for that?

          Etc.

    • MikeBrighton

      Shock horror the UKs press not bring in favour of breaking up the UK, in other news the pope is a catholic

      • GUBU

        And as for bears…

      • alexicon

        Shock horror the BBC is impartial.

    • Inverted Meniscus

      “A fair democratic vote” that is where everybody who lives in Scotland and is aged 16 or over gets to vote. Hang on, that is what you have got. What you mean by ” fair democratic vote” is of course a vote where everybody votes in the way that suits you. That is not “a fair democratic vote” that is fascism and judging from the comments of cybernat nutters like yourself, that is just what you will eventually end up with following a Yes vote. I am not a particularly enthusiastic unionist but a proud Englishman who is sick of anti-democratic, selfish cretins like yourself trying to impose your version of ‘democracy’ on the rest of us.

      • alexicon

        And I am sick of knuckle dragging britnats like yourself.

        • Inverted Meniscus

          I am not a “Britnat” laddie and am probably far better educated than yourself. I just enjoy pointing out the hypocrisy of nasty little idiots like you who respect democracy only when people vote in a manner of which you approve. I am looking forward to September when all of you cybernat nutters get to crawl back under the stones from whence you came.

          • alexicon

            I’m not your laddie!
            If you’re probably far better educated, why do you need to resort to insults?
            I’m looking forward to September when we can offload arrogant and ignorant britnats like yourself.
            Trot off.

            • Wessex Man

              What was your previous jovial post about then?

              • alexicon

                What was his previous arrogant and ignorant post about then?

            • Inverted Meniscus

              No laddie you are a nasty bigoted little cybernat who thinks democracy occurs when people vote in a manner that suits your purpose but not when they vote contrary to your wishes.

              • alexicon

                Aye and you are the Lord of all that matters, oh morris dancing champ.
                You actually think that democracy is the daily mail type no doubt.
                I really think you do not understand the meaning of bigoted.
                Oh before you go off on one, I am half English, on my Mothers side and I have 6 elder siblings who are English, some actually stay there.

    • Fraziel

      You mean fair and democratic where people arent threatened, insulted and abused for not being yes or where yes voters from the RIC dont attack politicians who dont agree with them, like Farage in Scotland recently. Yes voters talking about democracy is amusing as its the last thing they actually want in Scotland. Anyway, nice to see the excuses and blame starting already

      • Inverted Meniscus

        Yep that’s what he means.

      • alexicon

        There has been 3 reported crimes against YES supporters being attacked by unionists. Care to cite 1 reported crime against a YES supporter attacking a no supporter?
        Thought not.
        Farage was confronted by left wing students whose leader was English. Not the YES group.
        I think you’ll find I haven’t used any excuse for losing, but have stated what the OPs would have been if we had a fair democratic vote with proper journalism which refuses to see any wrong in the no camp.
        It’s amusing watching you get your facts wrong, but that is to be expected when you’re not getting a fair impartial press.

        • Fraziel

          Personally i have had numerous death threats, abuse, threats of violence and my elderly parents have even had sexual threats made against them. Not occasionally i might add , but frequently.There is not a single pro yes forum in existence where you will not be subjected to threats and vile abuse if you say you are voting no. Farage was abused by members of the radical independence campaign.Far left wingers who are pro yes and anti freedom of speech and democracy. You are going to lose and one of those reasons is the massive abuse and intimidation by yes voters that makes people wonder just what Scotland will be like post independence if you happen to hold a view the nats dont agree with. I even know people who wont put a no poster up for fear of their windows being put in. Yes have run a disgraceful campaign and i will be delighted when its over and they have lost convincingly. Anyway, as i said, nice to see you are getting the excuses in early.

          • http://batman-news.com Angus McIonnach

            You’re a bad liar Fraziel.

          • alexicon

            So have I.
            Did you report these fabled death threats to the police?
            I would have.
            They are pro YES, but not part of the YES group.
            Anti freedom of speech and anti democracy?
            Wooooaaah!!! Give it a rest.
            Sorry, but we’ve already won. We were never ever supposed to have a referendum, a system set up never to have one party having an over all majority. Very democratic isn’t it?
            In 1979 the dead were counted as a no vote in Scotland’s referendum, more democracy the Westminster way, the majority vote was for devolution by the way.
            The genie is out of the bottle and no matter what you or anyone else can say we are a united kingdom when a large proportion of people in another country, Scotland, have shown their preference.
            The unionists expected the YES vote below 20%
            Finally, you call scare mongering, threatening, blackmail etc. democratic?

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