Blogs Coffee House

Douglas Carswell’s defection is a disaster for David Cameron and great news for Ed Miliband

28 August 2014

28 August 2014

I like Douglas Carswell. He thinks for himself and has always, I think, added some welcome colour to parliament. But I don’t understand his defection to UKIP at all.

If nothing else it makes it more likely that Ed Miliband will be Prime Minister next May. Which in turn dramatically reduces the likelihood there will be an EU referendum in the next parliament. Which is the the matter with which Carswell is most concerned.

He is leaving the Conservatives because he thinks – correctly – that David Cameron will eventually recommend that Britain remain a member of the European Union. Fine. But it is quixotic to leave a party that can actually deliver what you want and join one that can’t. That is what Carswell has done.

Doubtless it will cheer the Dave Haters and the Better Off Outers but however principled you think Carswell is there remains the ticklish problem that he’s today made an EU referendum less likely not more probable.

Subscribe from £1 per week


This is the problem with monomania. The problem, too, with romantics and radicals – and Carswell is both, even if he does also have something of a mad scientist air about him – for their senses of principle and proportion are often unbalanced.

Still, this is another reminder – if you ever needed it – that europe will, one way or the other and sooner or later, end Cameron’s career. He can’t take his party with him and nor can he surrender to it. Which leaves him in an impossible position. Some circles resist squaring.

As I say, I quite like Douglas Carswell but it is surpassingly strange for a self-styled libertarian to join the most authoritarian party in British politics. UKIP supporters doubtless come in many shapes and forms but, in general, they tend to relish the crack of firm government. It is not a libertarian party. Quite the contrary, in fact.

I’d expect Carswell to win the Clacton by-election (though perhaps Boris could be persuaded to stand as the Tory candidate?) and he might well win at the general election too. Which is good news for Ed Miliband not just because it makes Cameron’s parliamentary arithmetic more difficult but because, quite plainly, it opens and widens and illuminates the divides on the right that risk costing the Tories dearly.

In other words: what a shambles. I can’t see how Carswell’s cause is improved by increasing the chances of a Labour government (but then I don’t find Europe terrifying or threatening either) and so working against the only party leader who can deliver what you want (even if you subsequently disagree with him on the referendum itself) seems, well, just a little eccentric and vainglorious.

Closer to home – that is, in Scotland – SNP types will crow that this shows that Westminster is still in thrall to UKIP and that Nigel Farage is setting the agenda. England will leave the EU, they will say, and UKIP will be in government in London. Can you afford to risk that? Unionists north of the border can be forgiven for thinking Carswell has timed his defection poorly. Even selfishly.

But there we have it. There’s always been a hint of the beserker about Douglas Carswell. It’s what makes him interesting. Sometimes, however, you can have too much of a good thing and this, I think, is one such occasion.

 


More Spectator for less. Subscribe and receive 12 issues delivered for just £12, with full web and app access. Join us.

Show comments
  • Jaria1

    The reason for Carswell defection is so simple yet everyone seems to have missed it. As an MP he would have his ear to the ground checking up his chances of re election. He got his answer and decided in order to keep his job he’d need to defect to UKIP . honourable ? Well the bloke who was UKIPS candidate wouldn’t agree

  • andagain

    Doubtless it will cheer the Dave Haters and the Better Off Outers but
    however principled you think Carswell is there remains the ticklish
    problem that he’s today made an EU referendum less likely not more probable.

    That’s a feature, not a bug.

    If we have a referendum, it will be won by one side or the other, and either way what will happen to their movement and their cause?

  • global city

    How come Massie is always so utterly wrong about everything?

  • Ordinaryman

    This has been said before, but needs reiterating to offset the scaremongering that’s going on. Votes lost to UKIP will be from both Tory and Labour and will probably put UKIP in a position to help form a coalition government. As it is, neither the Tory or Labour parties, in their present form, appear to have enough support to form a government with an overall majority. My personal preference, therefore, would be for a Tory/UKIP coalition rather than the abomination of a Labour/Libdem coalition.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Straw in the wind. I predicted that UKIP would be the main opposition following the next General Election. But perhaps that was being pessimistic.

  • rjbh

    I guess the guy just seems the writing on the wall

  • Christian

    What has changed is this: until now the dominant narrative has been that UKIP is the party of the “left behind”, as poujadist. Carswell (like Hannan) cannot be put in this box. By his actions yesterday, Carswell just might rescue the Brexit cause from being fatally poisoned by this association.

    UKIP needs policy to become a serious party, and not just policies of convenience to pander to the “left behind”. Carswell brings the policy-making muscle that UKIP needs. His calculation is that only by joining UKIP can he stop the party from becoming a narrow ghetto into which the whole “out” argument can be corralled.

    There’s courage for you.

  • abystander

    Vote NO for an UKIP/Tory coalition and a future as a province of Little England.

  • Jim Fox

    Scaremongering. Pathetic and it won’t work. British people have seen through the traitorous policies of mass immigration and multi-culti leftists, plus their betrayal by “Nothing to do with Islam” Cameron (NTDWI).
    Whichever ‘major party’ is elected I hope UKIP holds the balance of power.

  • Rifleman1853

    Mr Massie – I take it you haven’t heard the latest? Today, in a live broadcast interview, the truth finally came out. Cameron will not regard an ‘Out’ vote in the referendum as binding on him or his government.

    Your assertion that Cameron will deliver a referendum may or may not be correct; your assumption that Cameron’s referendum will be anything more than a glorified public opinion poll is utterly wrong.

    However much or little we might gain by voting for UKIP, the reality is that we have absolutely nothing to lose by not voting Tory.

    If you are still of the opinion that any Tory government would be better than any Labour government, I suggest you listen to Mr Carswell’s speech in full – in particular, with regard to the current government’s track record on public spending and the national debt., and also reflect on the latest figures for immigration.

    To be blunt, Cameron’s liberal socialists and Miliband’s liberal socialists are two cheeks of the same bum.

  • Conway

    but then I don’t find Europe terrifying or threatening either” Europe isn’t the problem; it’s the EU.

  • Roger Hudson

    Unfortunately the current voting system is almost certain to send Milipede to 10 Downing St. with a small percentage of the popular vote as UKIP erodes more Tory than Labour votes. May 2015 will start another lurch downhill for the British nations.

    • RobertC

      “as UKIP erodes more Tory than Labour votes”

      Only in the South, where there are very few Labour MPs anyway.

      In the North, UKIP are making good progress.

    • Denis_Cooper

      In the past it was true that UKIP eroded more Tory than Labour votes by a large margin, although it was always wrong to suppose that if UKIP ceased to exist then all those who had switched from the Tories would switch back. But over the past few years UKIP has increasingly been attracting support from across the political spectrum.

  • Frank

    Oh, so Boris could defeat Carswell? Utter piffle. You at the Spectator can cling to your illusion that Boris will sweep all before him, but you need to accept that most of us think he is yesterday’s man (and with far too many barely hidden skeletons to be electable).
    Secondly, if Carswell’s switch causes Scotland to vote to leave the union, then most of England will buy him a drink.

    • Bob Thomas

      I do find the legacy media’s notion that Al Johnson will carry all before him and that would be conservative voters are salivating at the prospect of voting for him in a Westminister seat increasingly odd. Maybe the situation is different in and around London, but nobody I know would even consider voting for that egomaniacal narcissist. Sure, he was funny on HIGNFY a few years back, back as an MP, let alone Prime Minister, no thanks.

    • Wessex Man

      Boris is a buffon!

  • Bob Thomas

    “I’d expect Carswell to win the Clacton by-election (though perhaps Boris
    could be persuaded to stand as the Tory candidate?) and he might well
    win at the general election too”.

    Haha! Boris in Clacton – bring it on!

    “…but then I don’t find Europe terrifying or threatening either…”

    Never were very bright were you, Alex.

    The issues at hand are national independence, popular sovereignty and liberal democracy. All of these vital principles are threatened by supranational treaty governance via the EU.

  • http://eurealist.co.uk/ Ken Adams

    I think the point is clear Mr Carswell defected because he has become convinced that Cameron will use the referendum to keep Britain in the EU. Hence any arguments about weakening the eusceptic cause are misplaced.

  • http://batman-news.com roundhead

    You say you don’t “understand his defection to UKIP at all”. If I may try to help your understanding, a difference is that while you appear to believe David Cameron’s referendum malarkey, Douglas Carswell does not.

  • Jules Wright

    Not sure why you don’t understand his defection Alex: he states the reasons plainly. Several clear points of principle. Bloated incompetent and overweaning government structures; porous borders; recall, the EU, always-empty promises; inertia … it’s all there. Here’s a genuinely honourable – and very smart man – following his conscience strategically and selflessly rather than tactically and selfishly.

    He clearly understands the risks of UKIP clearing the way for Labour. it’s a very real prospect of course. But if the short-term price of Miliband in Downing Street is the long-term reboot of country-first conservatism – not to mention resurrecting our ability to govern ourselves – then it’s one that needs to be paid, however tough it may seem. Carswell grasps this reality intuitively. So do many many people who have left an intellectually empty and dysfunctional conservative party for the embryonic (in relative terms) UKIP: nothing ever changes unless there’s some pain. But the pain of integrity is better than the sclerosis of dishonesty; and ultimately, it passes for the better.

    Good on him, Makes a refreshing change. Who knows what this may trigger?

  • David B

    Miliband will rub his hands with glee. We will now see a much more pro EU labour part with Ed looking to be the PM that gets the UK into the Euro to make a EU exit impossible. And like Blair and Brown before him this will happen without a referendum!

    Today is the day that ensures the UK will be part of the EU superstate.

    UKIPers will hate me for this, but you have just won the battle but ensured you will lose the war!

    • starfish

      Eh?
      We have a pro-EU Labour/LibDem offer plus a Tory party with a leader that seems unlikely/unwilling to deliver EU Reform (and will not tackle immigration and paedophile rape gangs in our culturally enriched towns)
      Or UKIP
      Seems a clear choice to me

      • David B

        Your following the SDP model. Divide and sit in opposition. Is that really the choice you want

    • Wessex Man

      We don’t hate you we leave that sort of thing for the loony Lib/dums/Labs/left wing Tories, we love bomb you with knid words.

      • David B

        Trouble is you will do anything to get rid of Cameron not because he won’t give us a referendum but because he will.

        The truth is we need to decide what to do with the EU. Splitting the vote (like the SDP did to the left in the early 80′) will achieve a union dominated Labour government implementing the policies of Tony Benn as part of a Left wing EU. That will see a mass exodus of our talented children, stripped of all their family wealth by a brutal tax system.

        We will live to thank Blair for all the immigration as it will give us the chance to leave!

  • Peter Stroud

    Come off it Alex: a single defection will make little difference to Cameron’s chance of losing or winning next May. The cards are already stacked in favour of Miliband: God forbid. However, I initially thought that Carswell’s defection was a good move; but now I have my doubts. He would, surely, have been better to remain in the ranks, as a cheer leader for the ‘better out’ group. He is right not to trust Cameron, but would have been able to oppose him from his own benches, rather than in a one man coalition with HM opposition.

  • Greenslime

    What an utter load of tosh you write Massie. You appear to have just run through a list of negative points, conflated them into a single piece and forgotten to give your thoughts some Imodium. When you have a mo, read up on how to present a reasoned argument!

  • Denis_Cooper

    “If nothing else it makes it more likely that Ed Miliband will be Prime Minister next May.”

    That’s already very likely, and it’s little to do with UKIP but mainly thanks to the Tory party being such total rubbish; if Carswell’s defection has any significant direct effect on the outcome then most likely it will be a somewhat larger Labour majority than if he had continued to suppress his real feelings and stayed as a Tory.

    • Kennybhoy

      “That’s already very likely…”

      Possible rather than likely, let alone “very likely”. My sense on the ground is that that the electorate’s views have changed little from 2010 and that the little change that there has been has benefited the Conservatives…

      “…most likely it will be a somewhat larger Labour majority…”

      Forgive me Maister C, I have a very great deal of time for you, but this reads like getting your excuses in place…

  • Denis_Cooper

    “I’d expect Carswell to win the Clacton by-election (though perhaps Boris could be persuaded to stand as the Tory candidate?)”

    Typically you don’t even bother to think whether the remaining Tories in Clacton would actually want to choose Boris Johnson as their candidate, you just assume that if the great man could be persuaded to stand then that would all be settled.

    • RobertC

      I don’t think Clacton is in London either, its on the Essex coast, so the problem of being an MP and MoL would need to be explained away more than if he contested Uxbridge and South Ruislip.

  • JoshuaCzajkowski

    We will stand on principle, or we will not stand at all.

  • FF42

    I suspect Douglas Carswell has made his move because he has calculated that the Conservatives will lose the next election anyway. There won’t in fact be a referendum on the EU exit, so there’s no point in being disciplined about it

  • Chris

    Anything that annoys Alex Massie must be good. The Spectator must realise that this man loses the mag readers.

  • Smithersjones2013

    Awww poor liottle Alex has had his morning upset by Dougie defecting to the dreaded Kippers instead of staying loyal to Massie’s beloved verminous lying sewer-dwelling Westminster Freakshow.

    What Massie is too thick to understand with his ‘Little Westminster’ mindset even now is to those of us who applaud Carswell’s action do not perceive Tory or Labour or the EU as separate opposing entities but as nothing more than different heads on the same rotten corrupt hydra.

    Under Cameron the Tories have become a cardboard cutout of Tony Tory Blair’s 1997 Labour Party. Carswell’s departure only highlights how indistinct the Tory party has become!

    • Kennybhoy

      “…do not perceive Tory or Labour or the EU as separate opposing entities but as nothing more than different heads on the same rotten corrupt hydra.”

      Effective, and in my view accurate, imagery. The problem is though that politics is the art of the possible. How do you effect real change with a tribal electorate and FPTP?

  • swatnan

    A blessing in disguise or a pig in a poke for Ed? The trouble is that the worst elements of the working class will be dragged away from Labour which is a good thing, but it plays havoc with trying to predict elections with the UKIP Factor across the country.

    • Wessex Man

      “the worst elements of the working class” at last you show your true feelings!

      • pointlesswasteoftime

        I wonder how those “worst elements” are identified?

        • Wessex Man

          I do as well who is spying on electors?

  • Simon Fay

    Interesting bit of theatre. Deckchairs, Titanic etc.

  • FrankS2

    Since Carswell, if still an MP, is likely to vote in favour of any referendum, how would his defection make it any more or less likely?

  • altsegel

    What Carswell realises is there would never be a referendum under Cameron. A Milliband victory next year simply hastens the end of the three party bourgeois hegemony. As a self employed pleb of slender means i welcome this.

  • Damaris Tighe

    Great news. Apparently (Radio 4 lunchtime news) Carswell will be a shoe-in. First UKIP MP in a few weeks.

  • southerner

    With another 560,000 immigrants in this year people should vote on principle for what they believe will effect change in our relationship with Europe. Call Me Dave’s fairy story referendum isn’t it. Leaving it is.

  • Blindsideflanker

    Cameron’s long long summer recess has just proven to be a disaster. He has lost control of his party.

    • Holly

      …And, much more importantly his long time supporters.
      Self inflicted I’m afraid.
      Cameron has never been able (or willing) to stand up to the Lib Dems, so the thought of him standing up against the rest of Europe, political correctness, or the screaming left, is a complete joke.

  • wycombewanderer

    UKIP wiill target Miliband in all his rotten boroughs over their rape for votes policy.

  • Charles_Dilkes

    Basically you’re lambasting him for not maintaining an ‘alliance of convenience’ within the Conservative Party, when it’s clearly become too unpalatable – and unworkable – for him.

    I think he can live with your somewhat jumbled psychoanalysis of him (a romantic & radical? Hm.); he clearly reads the situation completely different from you, a Conservative Party devotee.

  • Radford_NG

    Hear Carswell on a EU referendum:Cameron’s advisers want to cut a deal that will be just enough to persuade voters;”Once I realized that my position….became untenable”.Hear Carswell at

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3kn7BbqYGw

  • Christian

    This is about the destruction of the charade known as the Tory party. Only then can a patriotic party emerge.

  • an ex-tory voter

    How much longer can David Cameron continue to face in one direction and walk in the exactly the opposite direction.
    The principled Mr Carswell will not be the last Tory MP to give up and join UKIP. After all UKIP is the only party offering true conservative policies.

  • ScaryBiscuits

    There are 3 problems with Alex’s analysis:
    1. It is not a EU referendum that we seek but leaving the EU.
    2. Despite his promise of a referendum Cameron is no more likely deliver this than Miliband. People who believe otherwise are deluded.
    3. This is not just about Europe but about a whole host of things from HS2 to immigration and stopping children being raped by Asian gangs. Until we leave the EU, however, we will not be able to effectively deal with any of these problems.
    What is really sad is to see the beginning of the inevitable smear campaign on Douglas’s character, which socialists like Alex will indulge in all too gleefully.

    • Mynydd

      So now we have it, we cannot effectively deal with children being raped by Asian gangs because we are in the EU. How low will UNIP supporters stoop.

      • Inverted Meniscus

        When not as low as the Labour scum who let those disgusting events take place in Rotherham.

        • Mynydd

          Most child sexual and physical abuse is committed by close members of their family, so how will leaving the EU stop that? Maybe UKIP supporters could answer that.

          • Inverted Meniscus

            Firstly, I am not a UKIP Supporter. Second, the issue in question is grooming of young girls by Pakistani gangs under the unseeing eyes of a Labour council and all manner of Labour officialdom. Third, none of these Labour officials have mustered sufficient principles to resign. Fourth, no doubt a disgusting Labour Troll like yourself will try and pin it on the door of Margaret Thatcher. Sickening, dishonest and typical of a Labour and its supporters.

            • Adrian Harper

              Maggie did turn a blind eye to peter Morrison and assorted homosexual paedophiles in her cabinet. all victims of perverts are important not just the ones you can make political capital out of. we’re in the present sorry state domestically and internationally blair/Iraq Cameron hague/Libya because of con/lab/lib . give ukip a chance,despite the non stop smears against farage he stands for what most of us think. ps seen the latest immigration figures? so much for getting tough. good luck mr carswell

              • Inverted Meniscus

                Well she is not in position to argue with you is she?

      • Wessex Man

        point out where that’s said please.

    • realfish

      ‘1. It is not a EU referendum that we seek but leaving the EU….’
      Isn’t that for the electorate to decide, or are you one of these ‘most authoritarian’ UKIPpers that will undemocratically decide what’s best for us?
      I have some sympathy with the possibility of withdrawal but find your certainty scary, Scary.

      • RobertC

        The EU Referendum is important because that is what Cameron said he would deliver:
        David Cameron Promised EU Referendum in 2009
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ2n7oMcSi0

        The reasons he have have not changed.

        If the voters vote in UKIP, they WILL be doing this because they want to leave.

  • cambridgeelephant

    You are dreaming and trolling at the same time Massie.

    “but however principled you think Carswell is there remains the ticklish problem that he’s today made an EU referendum less likely not more probable.”

    That – is drivel. Politics to be effective requires action. It also needs some principle. DC has shown both.

    He defects but forces a by election. He’s putting his ideals and beliefs not his own carcass first.

    Would Cameron resign if he loses Scotland ? He’s already said no. So a PM can contemplate losing a third of the country but still clings on. Carswell stands for what he believes and risks everything he has in political terms.

    Can you really not see the difference ? We can !

    None so blind as those who won’t see.

    • Alexandrovich

      “That – is drivel. Politics to be effective requires action. It also needs some principle. DC has shown both.
      My heart skipped a beat just then…

      • Chris Morriss

        Doesn’t help that Douglas and a certain other influential conservative MP have the same initials.

      • cambridgeelephant

        Sorry about that !

  • johnfaganwilliams

    Tragedy for Carswell and the Conservative cause. Staggering that no-one seems to have picked this up and talked him down from his ego

    • HookesLaw

      Its not ego – its obsession. He has made his bed and now has to lie in it.

      • Wessex Man

        oh dear Hooky, I can’t even stir myself to have a go at you, I just feel sorry for you.

    • Christian

      You think the Conservative party is conservative? Oh how touchingly naive……

      • johnfaganwilliams

        Fair point, very fair!

    • Steve Stubbs

      If you had read Carswell’s blog regularly this will be no surprise. It’s been coming for a while..

  • Alexsandr

    Oh Alex
    How can you be so wrong?
    Cameron will never deliver the EU referendum, or if he does it will be so built on caveats it will be useless. Or he will do the same as wilson did in 1975 and get meaningless concessions and come back thinking he is a hero.
    Still the Speccie hates UKIP and will smear them at every turn. But people in the Northern cities will be realising how dreadful was Labours legacy (beheadings, child abuse and immigration) that thay may be defecting to UKIP in droves. remember UKIP won 10 out of 21 seats in Rotherham council in May.
    The 3 main parties are becoming equally toxic. They should wither and die to let new parties flourish without liblabcons skeletons.

    • Guest

      Labour’s legacy does not include beheadings!

      • Alexsandr

        It was labour who brought us mass immigration, PC and multi culturism. That allowed fanatical islam to flourish leading to Lee Rigby and to the mess in Syria and Iraq.

      • Holly

        There legacy also includes a wrecked economy, unnecessary hospital/care home deaths, an appalling education system, various towns/cities suffering child sexual exploitation gangs, jailed MP’s, corrupt police, public sector failings covered up, PFI contracts, Iraq, unfetted immigration, and allowing hate preachers to spout their hatred to others,which led to 7/7 and Lee Rigby.
        Labour’s ‘legacy’ is an absolute disaster and well you know it.
        The people of this country owe them absolutely nothing.

        • Kennybhoy

          But despite all of this you still feel the need to, as Torybushug says, take a risk and make a stand….?

      • Wessex Man

        Er what teaboy to George Bush sent our forces in into an illegal war in Iraq?

    • HookesLaw

      Pretty pathetic again. You claim to want a referendum but vote against the only party promising to and able to deliver a referendum. Its a poor defence to pretend there would not be one if elected. Its an even poorer fig-leaf for refusing to own up to facilitating a labour victory.
      The weaker the tories are and the more likely a labour victory then the less likely labour are to feel the need to offer a referendum themselves.
      Carswell is going out of his way to precipitate a labour victory and easy one as well. Pretty sickening and pretty stupid.

      • Holly

        Personally I find it ‘pretty sickening’ and ‘pretty stupid’ that threats of a Labour government are being used to try and stop people voting for the only party who gives a stuck.
        I will use my vote for the party I believe is the right one, for the right reasons, and at the absolutely right time, and I know you think this will ‘let Labour in’, but I reckon UKIP are going to knock their dominance for six up here, and rightly so.
        Carswell has done what HE thinks is right, and the dismal response from the Conservative cabinet ministers over ISIS/Rotherham sexual abuse of young girls more than likely told him all he needed to know about the direction his Conservative front bench were going.
        I do not think they could get any weaker than they are already, so Carswell doing this at least shows some of us, that there is still life in some of them.
        Thank god.

        • Wessex Man

          Well said Holly, it’s the start of a landslide!

          • Holly

            Here’s hoping eh.

      • John Dalton

        You do talk some cr*p, troll. But at least you didn’t call anyone a racist or a bigot. That’s a first.

        • Wessex Man

          Not yet today but give him time!

        • Inverted Meniscus

          Give him time.

      • Smithersjones2013

        Whoo hoo hooo hooo, Heeee heee heee, Haaaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaaa ROFLMAO!

        Keep on chuntering Hooky!

      • Torybushhug

        There comes a time in life where you really feel the need to take a risk and make a stand. For too long Lab/Con have employed the old ‘don’t let the enemy in’ trick.
        Hopefully though as UKIP rises in the polls the Tory leadership might just wake up prior to 2015.
        Only one person I know wants mass immigration to continue.

        • Earthenware

          David Cameron?

        • RobertC

          Hopefully they won’t wake up.

    • ScaryBiscuits

      I agree. I don’t think it’s yet dawned on the Westminster commentariate how toxic for Labour the Rotherham child abuse scandal is going to be. From the unapologetic Harriet Harman and the PIE to a swathe of seats in the northern cities, not just Rotherham, UKIP will be able to validly claim that a vote for Labour is a vote for paedophiles. After the viscous character assassination attempts on many UKIP candidates, they will thoroughly deserve it.

      • Callan

        All you say is correct. But.. Millions of serial welfare dependants, millions of immigrants, ill educated, indoctrinated comprehensive schooled teen and twenty somethings and people born with Labour tattooed on their brains ( as in Rotherham) That is a large majority of the country and Labour will gather all those votes. . And UKIP will put the icing on the cake for Labour because Cameron, the man in the empty suit has caused loyal Tories to defect in disgust. Oh yes, don’t forget the fraudulent postal vote as the ace in the hole for Milliband.

        • ScaryBiscuits

          I think you’re too rude about the people of Rotherham. Even ill-educated people don’t like their children being raped.
          It’s the failure of the Conservatives to offer any opposition in these cities that has made it easier for Labour to get away with running these cess pits of depravity for so long. That is why the people of Rotherham turned to UKIP and after becoming the official opposition at the last election will probably run the council after the next and possibly both Westminster seats too.
          It may well not be enough to stop Miliband winning the next general election but increasingly nobody sees any difference between him and Cameron. If the Cameroons had been in charge in Rotherham they would have been just as afraid of prosecuting Muslim rapists for fear of being called racist as Labour was. At a national level Cameron has done little better and the Home Secretary proposes yet more laws instead of using the existing ones and boasts about imprisioning a handful of jihadis out of thousands.

          • Mynydd

            I understand that the rapists in Rotherham where prosecuted and sent to jail. Are you sure that no child abuse has taken place in Rotherham while UKIP as been the official opposition, considering most abuse is by family members.

            • Wessex Man

              Nothing of the sort, you are in your usual socialist way trying to blame the parents. It was interseting to me to check on the NewStateman blog to find that the only reference to children was a pop at the chancellor over child care charges, you are as sad as them.

            • ukfred

              Do you seriously believe that only these five men raped and abused around 1400 girls from Rotherham all over the north of England.

              If, as you say but I do not accept in the cases where there were organised child grooming and exploiting gangs at work, that most child abuse takes place in the home with family members, why should an opposition party which will not be privy to all of the facts and reports in a council run on cabinet lines rather than on committee lines as previously be able to stop all child abuse happening in an area?

              Let’s face it, the problem was that too many people in the Labour (Lie-More?) were more concerned about keeping the Muslim block vote in Rotherham than in rocking the boat to ensure that what was being done was right.

              One report states that the South Yorkshire Police were treating the victims with contempt, just like they did with Cliff Richard, and we all know that when the system protects the abusers from the victims, then the system is corrupt. Every council officer and every councillor in Rotherham who knew of any of the prior reports should be barred from public office for life for negligence in public office and every police officer, from constable to chief constable who treated a victim with disbelief or arrested the victim and let the abusers go free, no matter in which force they are currently serving should be sacked forthwith, and any pensioner former policeman who did likewise should have their police pension artrested and paid towards some sort of help for the victims.

              • Kaine

                “who treated a victim with disbelief or arrested the victim and let the abusers go free”

                Most of us have known that the police force guilty for Hillsborough and Orgreave were institutionally corrupt for some time.

          • Kennybhoy

            “I think you’re too rude about the people of Rotherham. Even ill-educated people don’t like their children being raped.”

            Why then, if the practice was common knowledge and has been going on for decades, did they not do something about it before now…?

            • Holly

              That was the cover-up.
              It was not ‘common knowledge’.

              • Kennybhoy

                Common knowledge on this forum for years Holly…

                • Holly

                  Why are the people of Rotherham so shocked about it then?

                • Kennybhoy

                  And you know this how Holly? From msm reports?

                • Wessex Man

                  and you know your ‘facts’ from where?

            • Wessex Man

              because you rude fool, the managers and councillors, all with ‘common purpose’ have hid it so well. Do you seriously think the people of Rotherham would ever knowingly have voted for this rabble had they known the damage being done there.

              Your contrary arguments show you to be halfwitted.

            • Noa

              Complainants to the police were themselves arrested. Do you not find that in the least Orwellian?

        • Holly

          Some of these, welfare dependent, ill educated, indoctrinated comprehensive schooled ..etc, etc, have been the one’s most betrayed by Labour (as in Rotherham, and other places) it will be the runt public sector/union militants who continue to vote for Labour.
          Everyone else has had the covering taken from their eyes.
          The utopia Labour bods groan on about in Parliament, of ‘better lives’ for their constituents, has now come crashing down around their collective heads.
          It has occurred in a timely fashion with an opportunity for all those who are dissatisfied with the ineptitude of the main political parties to ‘vent their spleens’.

          • ukfred

            Because they are ill-educated, they probably would not recognise it, all they will get are lies from Lie-More, oops sorry Labour about how these wicked Tories in both UKIP and the Conservatives will cut their benefits and will only help the rich. I hope UKIP send a copy of Professor Alexis Jay’s report to every household in every Labour-held seat with their election address.

        • Mynydd

          If you know of a fraudulent postal vote it is your duty to report it. If you don’t then you are just as guilty as the fraudster.

          • Callan

            I think the authorities are well aware of the situation in Tower Hamlets for example. It has received considerable newspaper coverage.

            • Kaine

              I thought the line from the reactionary press was that all Bengali people voted on ethnic lines anyway. Why would you need to fake the votes?

          • Wessex Man

            do one.

        • Kaine

          Soon our Frankfurt School methods, embedded since the time of Zinoviev, will come to fruition, and then you will know fear!

          A public option in rail transport!
          A freeze in small business rates!
          A broadly similar fiscal envelope!

          Truly the revolution will have been achieved! Mwahahahaha!

      • Jambo25

        I think you could be right. It is just possible that a realignment on the right with a UKIP/some Tories realignment would create a populist and popular party which would appeal to some of the older, more traditional , pee’d off Labour voters. It would probably hit Labour hardest in the South but I suspect it would also make inroads into Labour in the North where things like Rotherham,Bradford, Rochdale etc are going down like a lead balloon.
        You could add on that regardless of what happens in Scotland on the 18th, Labour have deep trouble there as well. If its Yes then out the door go 40 Labour MPs. If its No then the SNP won’t fold but rebrand themselves as Scotland’s only true defender against Westminster and brand SLAB as ‘pink Tories’. Not guaranteed to make you loved by the Scottish electorate. Bung a barely competent and ineffective leader in charge of all this and you’ve got a bit of a perfect storm for Labour.

        • Kennybhoy

          Agree with everything but

          “It would probably hit Labour hardest in the South…”

          Yer southern English Labour voter is more likely to be left-liberal than conservative socialist. The sort who would consider voting LibDem. God forgive them, these scandals are water off a duck’s back to their ingrained ideological prejudice. And branding Labour, even legitimately so in my view, as the “rape for votes” party would only serve to reinforce their prejudices…

          • Jambo25

            I think what you write is true for London. That clearly isn’t a happy hunting ground for UKIP: second worst after Scotland. There are a lot of ex Labour voters and not very keen continuing Labour voters in non metropolitan Southern England and they could very well go to a UKIP/Tory hybrid. They are traditional Labour voters similar to many northerners. They are not social liberals.

        • Mynydd

          Do you really think that traditional Labour voters will vote for the right wing Conservative party or the extreme right UKIP.

          • Jambo25

            Not sure but I think there’s a chance. There’s a lot of really dissatisfied Labour voters all over the UK who were well and truly turned off by New Labour and clearly didn’t fancy the party in 2010. If old Labour voters are moving back to voting for the party now and I’m not entirely sure they are, its without any real enthusiasm.
            In Scotland, the SNP has really damaged Labour. Not just at the ballot box but by attracting many of the activists who would previously have been Labour supporters. It can only be a matter of time until an English SNP springs up. A populist joint UKIP/Tory Party: heavy on populism, and respectable English nationalism might be it. Lose Dave and pals and get in Nigel, Bojo and a few other ‘man of the people’ types and you’re half way there.
            It really is difficult to see what Labour are offering their traditional supporters. More identity politics which doesn’t value their identity George Osborne lite austerity. What is there for an unemployed brickie in Rotherham?

          • Holly

            Absolutely.
            Once you get your head out of your dark place, and around the fact that it is the ‘traditional Labour voter’ who have suffered the most from Labour policies, you too will understand that it is Labour who will fare the worst, come May 2015.
            Unless you have been on planet Zog with all the other lefty half wits, you might realise that people are now openly discussing immigration, and the lack of control over the numbers,or our ability to boot them out, and the sheer scale of Labour’s destructive policies on peoples lives.
            I live in hope…
            But won’t hold my breath.

        • Wessex Man

          check the council seats won by Ukip in Labour heartlands Jambo in all areas UKip is a growing and serious party.

          • Jambo25

            Not my cup of tea as you know but as I’ve noted I can see an opening for another party and I can well understand why English people would vote for it. I can even sympathise with them.

            • Kaine

              The fact UKIP have MEPs from Scotland and Wales would indicate reactionaries exist all across the island.

              • Jambo25

                10% of the vote in Scotland 30% in England. In any case, while I do not support UKIP I do not necessarily see all their voters as reactionaries. Many are just pissed off with the major parties and wish to send a message to them.

          • Kaine

            Like the zero they have in Manchester, or Newcastle, or Leeds, or Liverpool, or Middlesbrough…

            UKIP’s ability to mop up the latent Tory and BNP vote in a handful of Labour areas in by-elections is not some drive into the heartlands, it’s a product of the collapse of any opposition to Labour.

      • Kennybhoy

        From your keyboard to God’s ears man, but never underestimate the effects of voter tribalism and the distorting effect of FPTP…

        • Holly

          I suppose, in the end it will come down to, how your ‘tribe’ view child sexual exploitation, economic uselessness, and being a dab hand at cover-ups that will determine how each ‘tribe’ votes.

          • Kennybhoy

            Well Holly, everything you list has been going on for decades and it has had no effect on local or national voting patterns…

            • Holly

              Today the entire country knows what has been going on.
              A cover-up stops people, not directly involved, form knowing the truth. They can suspect, but now they know….HUGE difference.
              There is also the danger of being thought of as someone who is not entirely opposed to the disgusting abuses of children and the criminal negligence of those in a position to do something to stop it, by voting for the party who let it continue.
              Ah! some will say, but Labour politicians didn’t know about stuff. That may very well be the case, and should convince more people that covering stuff up is all that Labour are good at…Because they should have known….
              Didn’t Labour bods scream and shout that Murdoch should have known what was going on, and were unconvinced that he didn’t?
              Shouldn’t alarm bells have been ringing in Idiot Boy’s head when he campaigned for the bod who resigned from his post over child abuse stuff, to be a PCC?

              • ukfred

                Professor Jay said that nobody who was involved could not have known since 2003.

                Shoun Wright ought not to be the police and crime commissioner because if he did not know he is incapable of doing the job and if he did know, he was aiding and abbeting the commission of criminal activity.

          • Noa

            Viable alternatives did not exist before, the SNP in Scotland, UKIP in England…

      • Mynydd

        While no one can condone what happened in Rotherham and other towns I would point out:
        The NSPCC reports that 50,500 children in the UK are known to be at risk of abuse right now.
        Over 90% of children who experienced sexual abuse, where abused by some one they know.
        68% of child sexual abuse victims are abused by a family member
        UKIP should not forget actual reality when they are making political points. Abused children need more.

        • Kennybhoy

          Irrelevant. The abuse was a crime not a scandal. The scandal is the collusion of the authorities acting under the influence of left-liberal ideological imperatives.

          Why don’t you just fuck off ya disgusting wee troll!

          • Inverted Meniscus

            Give him time. He will be blaming Margaret Thatcher next.

            • Kennybhoy

              Has he not already done so elsewhere in this or another thread…?

              • Inverted Meniscus

                As I say, give the idiot time.

          • Wessex Man

            Kennybhoy, I’m sorry I seem to have misjudged you and I am truly sorry!

        • Holly

          There is a stark difference between making ‘political points’ and telling the truth.
          Labour can no longer hide from what they allowed to happen, and they have completely lost the ability to ‘silence’ those who’s lives were forever affected by Labour’s incompetence in everything, and the wider public who are disgusted and angry at what has been happening.

        • Holly

          Yada, yada, yada.
          Did your brow ‘furrow’, and your head tilt to one side when you typed your last sentence?

          Get rid of Labour and the victims of Labour’s poison will get a heck of a lot more than Labour ever offered them.

    • John Dalton

      Any idiot that goes surfing while the Middle East burns, while hundreds of radicalised Islamo-nutjobs are returning to the UK unchallenged, while potentially thousands of our young girls are having their lives destroyed by said nutjobs and while immigration is spiraling out of all control – well, that idiot deserves every disaster that’s heading his way.

      And he’s supposed to be a PR man?!

      • cambridgeelephant

        Yep ! Bullseye !

        This summer has exposed Cameron’s sheer uselessness to the utmost.

    • JoeDM

      A vote for Cameron’s Conservatives is a vote for the LibLabCon establishment.

      A vote for Miliband’s Labour is a vote for the LibLabCon establishment.

      A vote for Clegg’s LibDems is a vote for the LibLabCon establishment.

      • Wessex Man

        So vote UKip!

    • obiwan

      “…Still the Speccie hates UKIP and will smear them at every turn.”

      Exactly. We can’t rely on the Speccie for anything but unalloyed disdain and contempt for UKIP. They betray their bias at every opportunity.

      • Alexandrovich

        Perhaps a few at the Spectator are seeing that their projected careers are in need of some judicious re-calibrating.

    • Inverted Meniscus

      Fair comment but he has a point because a referendum, albeit flawed and you don’t have to vote as directed by Cameron, is better than no referendum which is an absolute certainty with Miliswine.

    • crackenthorp

      oh i do like idiots posting

  • HookesLaw

    I suppose your phrase ‘thats the problem with monomania’ – it just about sums it up. Not to mention ‘the hint of the berserker’.
    Carswell has just given a great boost to the socialist party and given great encouragement to Labours own supporters not to vote for a party that clearly is populated by anti socialist extreme right wingers .Are Labour voters going to defect to a party that can be shown to be full of Carswells?

    • Generian

      Are Labour voters going to stay with a party that can be shown to have supported the rape of 1500 working class girls in Rotherham?

      • Simon Fay

        You underestimate their loyalty…

        • Holly

          You mean Labour have over-estimated their loyalty.
          Cameron has done the same, that is why I will not be voting Conservative next year.

      • Inverted Meniscus

        Yes they are mindless left-wing sheep.

        • RobertC

          And that is just the Tory MPs!

    • Alexsandr

      They will after Rotherham….

    • Richard Ferguson

      They (Labour voters) did all through the 1980s and into the 1990s. That’s the unfortunate thing about Cameron & Co: he lacks the broad appeal to a sufficiently wide constituency. You are correct that Carswell has given a great boost to the “Socialist party” but there is so little to choose among the three mainstream parties in Westminster that it makes little difference.

    • Wessex Man

      please Hooky, we’ve traded insults for so long I’ve become fond of you, don’t demean yourself sticking with a non tory!

      • Richard Ferguson

        Haha! You two should meet. But would it be in a pub or a wine bar?

        • Wessex Man

          Well Richie I would prefer a nice packed little country pub with a blazing fire and a nice atmosphere, unfortunately Tone blair ruined all such with his smoking ban.

          ps I don’t smoke.

          • Inverted Meniscus

            In Wiltshire! Hampshire at a push.

    • Richard Ferguson

      One thing to add, however. (Forgive me for not calling you by a name as, unlike Wessex Man, it doesn’t feel right to address you as Hooky).

      Think bigger picture: your man Cameron is doomed and soon we are faced with a rickety Lab/LibDem coalition of the damned, the benighted and the downright useless. Pretty soon Conservatism will make the intellectual recovery it requires followed by a practical one.

      But the real upside is this: the chances of an EU referendum will recede sharply. The YES campaign in Scotland will be holed below the waterline as it cannot use this as a fear factor on September 18th. The union will be saved…

      ….and Wessex Man will be stuck with Jocks like me for at least another generation!

      • Wessex Man

        aw, don’t say that I thought we could be good neighbours Richie!

        • Richard Ferguson

          You’re stuck me for a while yet Wessex Man – I just have to make sure that the Tartan Unicorn Wonderland doesn’t materialise first!

    • Wessex Man

      Come over to the right side Hooky, I’m sure you remember it.

  • MikeF

    UKIP – “the most authoritarian party in British politic”? What pathetic drivel – you ever heard of the Labour Party?

    • HookesLaw

      Even if true, coming second to labour is no great shakes

      • southerner

        Well that’s what Dave will be doing next May.

        • Kennybhoy

          So where will UKIP be in this analysis…? Third…?

          • southerner

            As long as the old order is swept away they will be well placed to help shape the new.

            • Kennybhoy

              How is a Labour/Miliband government sweeping away the old order? Unless you actively seek a degringolade with all of the potential horrors such would bring.

              Loon….

              • southerner

                Well duh! The collapse of the Tory party and a new proper conservative party in its wake will sweep away the current 3 party socialist consensus.

                • Kennybhoy

                  When? After how many years of Labour rule? You think that once ” “the political wing of the British people” are back in power that they will stand idly by and allow this?

                  Fucking loon!

                • southerner

                  As opposed to your stunningly intelligent alternative of carrying on voting for the same socialist idiots from all 3 parties that have destroyed this country over the past 3 decades. Well done.

                • crackenthorp

                  oh dear what a loony tune

                • southerner

                  Thoughtful contribution thanks.

              • Noa

                A degringolade?

                Thank you for that.
                But what form of government do we have now?
                Perhaps you would not agree that it is a facade, perhaps even, that it is the role of government to be so, to hold the line, paper over the cracks, maintain the status quo. But that, surely does not prevent the accelerating decline which now seems to be taking place.
                An ungracious bully, the blowhard Cameron lambasts an honourable man whilst ignoring Rotherham, its causes and the failure of his immigration policy.
                Mr Carswell’s resignation from a party in need of rebuilding is a good thing; whilst it will not, regrettably, cause a degringolade in the Conservative party, it represents at least a very passable chevauchee.

                • telemachus

                  Carswell has certainly brought the racist moles out of their holes
                  This is music
                  With every cheer another split in the Tory vote next May
                  We were hoping UKIP would deliver 43 Tory Marginals to the forces of reason
                  This is looking pessimistic

                • global city

                  What did I warn you about yesterday?

          • Wessex Man

            First of course.

      • global city

        But it isn’t true, is it?

    • Jaria1

      Thanks to UKIP we soon will

  • Holly

    Has Carswell been swayed by his constituents to make this move, and if so, how much bearing on his constituents backing him did the latest antics of non white Brits have?
    If Carswell has done this because of a change in his constituents feelings then he is doing what he should do.
    Hopefully loads more Conservatives will do some ‘research’ within their constituency, and act accordingly…..
    That is if they are willing to do anything constructive during their holidays.
    I hope UKIP trounce the lot of them, and in all honesty, are a lot more UK focussed than any of the other ‘liberal’ political parties on offer.
    To some of us UKIP are the true libertarians desperately needed at this point in our history to….erm….liberate us from all the shackles that bind us….EU, PC, etc.

    • starfish

      So he has ‘defected’ and called a by-election
      Seems to me he has put his money where his mouth is and asked for his constituents to support him
      Strangely democratic – I can see why the commentariat is shocked

      • Wessex Man

        I have given you an up tick but I think you are arguing with someone who agrees with you.

        • starfish

          I thought I was agreeing with Holly….. 😉

          • Wessex Man

            well that’s OK then, I hope we are astill friends!

Close
Can't find your Web ID? Click here