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Anti-Semitism in Britain makes me feel ashamed

8 August 2014

2:40 PM

8 August 2014

2:40 PM

As silly seasons go, this August has been pretty rubbish, I have to say. Iraq heads the list of gloomy subjects, obviously, as 100,000 Christians and many more Yazidis flee from the genocidal maniacs of the Islamic State. And before anyone asks, yes I do support intervention there: this is not like other conflicts in the region, between two heavily-armed militias both hostile to the West, as in Syria; it is an unprovoked attacked by our enemies against defenceless civilians simply because of their religion, the very thing the post-1945 order was supposed to prevent.

Gaza is also deeply depressing; obviously it’s existential to the people of Israel and Palestine, but the events the conflict has triggered off in Britain and across Europe make my heart sink. The anti-Semitism on display makes me ashamed of my country — the physical attacks of Jews, the intimidating protests in Manchester, the politicians and campaigners who talk of making Scotland ‘Zionist-free’ or Bradford ‘Israeli-free’.

Why is anti-Semitism fashionable again? I was reading Michael Burleigh’s Moral Combat on holiday, and he summed up the psychological impact the Holocaust had on western consciences, compared to the still-evil-but-not-quite-so-evil crimes of Stalin. He wrote:

‘Nazi crimes against the Jews drew on an ancient mulch of Christian Judeaophobia that gives them psychological traction among western audiences, because its modern mutation of anti-Semitism is part of their more or less conscious heritage. Therefore the evocation of Nazi crimes rubs a collective scar in western societies.

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Indeed, it’s not just Israel, as some would claim, but — perversely — Europe’s conscious decision to atone for its sins by embracing multiculturalism that is in part responsible for the recent wave of anti-Semitism.

In my depressing book on immigration I tried to make the point that, so horrified are we by what European racism did that we’ve ended up fighting the last war. By trying to obliterate racism with a blaze of diversity, we imported and then incubated a new form of anti-Semitism.

My publisher made me take out a chapter which, he thought, rather suggested I didn’t think Islam was entirely compatible with secular democracy, gay rights or female emancipation. I don’t know what gave him that impression. In it I wrote:

‘In Britain over 40 per cent of anti-Semitic attacks are carried out by men of Middle Eastern or Asian appearance, and some 37 per cent of Muslims believe Jews in Britain are a legitimate target in the fight against Israel. Only half agree with Israel’s right to exist. And European mainstream opinion has absorbed some of its Muslim minority’s viewpoints, with intellectuals becoming increasingly hostile to Israel in recent years. As the Islamic population of Europe increases it seems unlikely that Jewish communities in Western Europe will feel any safer. It is ironic that Europe’s revulsion to racism was shaped by the Final Solution, and as a result it imported millions of people from the most anti-Semitic societies on earth. Now “anti-racism” is making life increasingly hard for European Jews, with the harassment of Jewish societies at universities, attacks on Jewish schools and the popularisation of “Zionist” as a thinly-veiled term of abuse.

I know that I’m a miserable sort of person, but the last month hasn’t exactly disabused me of this gloomy outlook. Add to that the decision by Baroness Warsi to resign over the most tribal of issues (not, for example, Saudi Arabia, Egypt or Pakistan — other countries we arm or aide, and which are also responsible for questionable activity) and the future of religious harmony in Britain does not look promising. Who knows? There are plenty of reforming British Muslims out there — if Maajid Nawaz is elected next year it would be a game changer — but both politicians and the media have far more incentive to listen to the more sectarian-minded voices, who can deliver votes, stories or outrage.

(The Diversity Illusion, incidentally, is available on Kindle for 99p at the moment, or £4,200 in paperback, a bargain at either price; although a second edition is coming out next month, apparently, which should cost rather less than that.)

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Show comments
  • Jackthesmilingblack

    ” Third Generation Holocaust survivors to sue Second Generation Holocaust survivors for stealing millions from First Generation Holocaust survivors. Alan Dershowitz to represent all three generations; promises to donate all his earning to fourth generation Holocaust survivors traumatized by Second Generation child abusers”

    You couldn’t make it up, could you!

  • shirzad

    Hi, Thank you very much Mtalbtvn enjoyed many nice Saytth

    کرکره برقی
    درب اتوماتیک

    کرکره برقی
    درب اتوماتیک

  • rtj1211

    What about the equally prevalent hatred of Muslims, Mr West??

    The vast majority of Muslims in this country are peaceful, decent people, just as the vast majority of Semites are too (some of whom are actually Muslim as well).

    It never ceases to amaze me how many articles your kind write about anti-semitism and the total lack of any similar ones about Muslim hatred, which exists to an absolutely equal degree in this country.

    Is that because most of your readers hate Muslims or are you merely a racist toward a different religious faith?

  • Deanna Clark

    Gaza has the most beautiful churches, the loveliest beaches, great food…why have these not been built up for the tourists? Why can’t Michael Palin go there are show the world? Why have the refugees and citizens not been able to do this on their own?
    Until this tangle faces these questions this recurring brutality will just keep on.
    Every person here has been blessed by life affirming, smart Jews. I hope this anti semitic stuff stops…it’s shooting your country in the foot.

  • chopperthecat

    ”£4,200 in paperback”

    That’s a bit steep is it not?

  • NahumNigel Froumin

    A British soldier in uniform was murdered in a London street by Moslems
    fired up emotionally by their preacher in the mosque.
    Christians in Mosul, Iraq , and other minorities, are given the choice: Convert to Islam! or you must leave or die!
    200 schoolgirls are kidnapped in Nigeria and forcibly converted to Islam
    and sold as slaves.
    I could go on with more horrid stories.
    Moderate Moslems make themselves irrelevant through their silence and
    inaction.
    Those in the civilized, enlightened western world who have ethics and codes of
    behaviour which respect democracy and the rights of the individual —
    politicians, bureaucrats and generals alike — are watching the
    events of the war between Israel and Hamas very closely. If it ends
    with a decisive and clear victory for Israel then all will feel some
    relief.
    But if Hamas is left with anything that it can put on its flag with which it can wave ‘Victory’ — then the Moslem extremists will be greatly encouraged and further inflamed to kill the infidel.

    Where is the leader of the free world?
    He’s on vacation at Martha’s Vinyard MS.

    But listen! The fate of the world for the coming century depends on the
    events of the next two weeks.

    Yours
    Nahum. Ramat HaSharon, Israel.

    • mahatmacoatmabag

      Hi Nahum , greetings from the Spectator’s resident Zionist troublemaker.
      The reason Hussein Obama spends so much time on golf courses is because those golf holes are actually cleverly concealed Hamas tunnel entrances !
      Regards Mahatmacoatmabag , Tel Aviv
      ps. you will find me on the Jerusalem Post using the ID ” Pudding on my Top Hat ” and the same Avatar as on here

  • NahumNigel Froumin

    It’s not just in this current era. Before the waves of Asian immigration into the UK in 1966 I was a student at Nottingham University and all the student societies had a notice board in the student union building. Just after we posted the dates and places of meetings on the Jewish Society’s board for the opening term, it was torn down and replaced with a black swastika – anon of course.
    But now things are worse. Jews have to hide. The situation is poetically described in 2008 by Sebastian Vilar Rodriguez :

    “ALL EUROPEAN LIFE DIED IN AUSCHWITZ’

    Written by Spanish writer Sebastian Vilar Rodriguez. Published in
    Spanish newspaper, Jan. 15, 2008.

    I walked down the street in Barcelona , and suddenly discovered a
    terrible truth – Europe died in Auschwitz .. We killed six million
    Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims. In Auschwitz we
    burned a culture, thought, creativity, talent. We destroyed the
    chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and
    wonderful people who changed the world.

    The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life:
    science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience
    of the world. These are the people we burned.

    And under the pretense of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove
    to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened
    our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and
    ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and
    poverty, due to an unwillingness to work and support their families
    with pride.

    They have blown up our trains and turned our beautiful Spanish cities
    into the third world, drowning in filth and crime.

    Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they
    plan the murder and destruction of their naive hosts.

    And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical
    hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for
    backwardness and superstition.

    We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and
    their talent for a better future for their children, their determined
    clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death,
    for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and
    others, for our children and theirs.

    What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe” .

    Yours , with tears in my eyes.
    Nahum, Ramat HaSharon, Israel.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Israel’s actions in Gaza will naturally increase anti-semitism, as many lump jews and Israelis together. Now wait for the notion that some aspects of the Holocaust were essentially Allied propaganda to gain traction.
    Jack, Japan Alps

  • tret

    Ed, you rotten proddie. Jews slam the Catholic Church for not capitulating to Muslim aggression in the 8th century. They love the Muslims, they suck the Muslims. Jews can’t have it both ways. They can’t hate Muslims and wish they had taken over Christendom at the same time.

  • Mr Grumpy

    Perhaps Ed’s publisher, Gibson Square, would like to offer some justification for their apparent wish to shield the most anti-Semitic section of the community from criticism. If not, I hope they get royally shafted by Amazon.

  • mahatmacoatmabag

    ”One of the chief tasks of any dialogue with the Gentile world is to prove that the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not a distinction at all.”
    a quote by the late Abba Eban , Foreign Minister of Israel

    • Marie Louise Noonan

      ‘the distinction between anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism is not a distinction at all’

      Even for Jews who are anti-Zionist?

      • mahatmacoatmabag

        Especially for Jews who are anti-Zionist, they are the vilest anti-Semites of them all !

        • Marie Louise Noonan

          Whoa, you really are a controlling personality type..

  • william

    Allowing mohammedans to move to our country en masse has been a disaster – both socially and economically. Ordinary British people are not anti-Jewish but are anti-islamic.
    The far left in Britain is anti-Jewish and panders to the islamic vote – on which it depends.
    Let’s label Labour as the pro-moslem party – which it is – even fewer white people will vote Labour then than do now when they have this spelt out to them.

    • TheUntalentedRiply

      I fully agree with you. Culturally, Britain has been Christian (even if in name only) for 2,000 and Labour (and the Tories and the vile Lib Dems) have essentially allowed this country to go to the dogs. Bring on UKIP and Swiss style referenda!

  • Freedom

    Behind all virulent anti-Semitism you will find hatred of liberty… and within much of that, you will find the Left.

  • Ordinaryman

    Something I can’t quite figure out, perhaps someone can help. If Hamas are firing missiles at Israel in an attempt to get them to lift the blockade Israel has in place, why aren’t they firing missiles at Egypt who also have a blockade in place?

    • avi15

      Two reasons:
      1) Because Hamas knows that the Egyptians would mercilessly flatten Gaza, unlike Israel, which has moral scruples.
      2) Because the Egyptians aren’t Jews and Hamas hates Jews so much that Gaza might as well be the Fourth Reich, only it’s not nearly well organised enough for that; in fact, it’s a very tatty version thereof.

      • Ordinaryman

        Thankyou!

  • avi15

    I hate to break it to you but history shows that countries that fail to check antisemitism end up becoming hellholes: Germany, Iraq, Syria, Libya, Russia, to name but a few. Is the UK next?

  • artemis in france

    I well remember a chat I had about ten years ago with a Jewish family we briefly knew because our daughters had become friends on holiday. The mother was an enchanting woman, attractive and very intelligent, extremely articulate, and, like so many Jews, well-educated, but I found her naivety worrying. Her daughters attended a well-known school in North London and were well versed in Hebrew and the Torah, but she happily allowed them to mix with Muslim children, who also attended the school and when I expressed surprise at her equanimity, explained that they felt that multi-culturism was a good thing. She even proudly boasted that she went to a Halal butcher for her méat as the nearest Kosher butcher was a long way away! Quite what they are experiencing now I don’t know, but I hope that they are not being targeted. This is why the state of Israel must be allowed to exist. Where will the persecuted Jews of Europe go in a décade’s time when Islamic radicaux rule the roost, especially in Britain which is already allowing them too much freedom. Shame on the politicians of the last 20 years who have overseen this travesty and are still allowing it.

  • greencoat

    In Britain over 40 per cent of anti-Semitic attacks are carried out by men of Middle Eastern or Asian appearance
    I would guess that the real figure is more like 99% – something that the British media deliberately avoid mention of.

  • binky354

    Anti-Semitism in America makes me ashamed and worried.

    • MountainousIpswich

      Murdering children in Gaza makes me ashamed and worried.

      • pedestrianblogger

        Did the deaths of 160 Palestinian children which happened during the construction of Hamas’ tunnels cause you to feel shame or worry or is it only when Jews can be blamed that you are stricken by these emotions?

        • MountainousIpswich

          Did I mention any nationality in my comment? Anyone murdering children is an abhorrent monster. The fact that Hamas has done it does not mean that Israel gets to do it with impunity, aren’t you supposed to believe yourselves better than Hamas? Yet have killed kids by a ratio of near 10-1. There are no newspaper articles claiming that Hamas is justified.

          • pedestrianblogger

            “Maybe it’s to do with the Zionist murder of hundreds upon hundreds of innocent children?” gives away your position somewhat, does it not?

            • MountainousIpswich

              Not in the above comment, and I note you’ve avoided the point I’ve made.

              • Freedom

                What about all the people murdered all the time in the name of Arab tyrannies and Allah (the two go hand in hand) — men, women, and children, of all nationalities? Israelis are defending their country against genocidal attack. They do so in the most decent and civilized manner possible, but their enemies are careless of life and willing to use human shields. You have no leg to stand on. And do you ever speak out against the crimes of Iran? Iraq? Saudi Arabia? Or any other Muslim nation? If not, why not? We demand to know.

          • mahatmacoatmabag

            ‘reading your rant makes me ashamed and worried that you are not being cared for the NHS in a secure hospital like Broadmoor

    • Marie Louise Noonan

      There’s no anti-semitism in the US surely.

      (Time Man of the Year 1938?)

      • mahatmacoatmabag

        Hey MLN , before you repost the King David bombing again, some other war crimes involving British troops in the pay of the Mufti :-

        1) 2 February1948 – Three people are killed in a bombing in the Palestine Post (now the Jerusalem Post) building. carried by British soldiers in the pay of the Mufti

        2) 2 February 1948 – 1948 Ben Yehuda Street Jerusalem, Bombing: Three British Army trucks, led by an armoured car driven by Arab irregulars and British deserters, explode on Ben Yehuda Street, Jerusalem, killing 58 Jewish civilians and injuring 140.

        3) 11 March 1948 – The Jerusalem headquarters of the Jewish Agency is bombed by British soldiers in the pay of the Mufti & other agents of the Grand Mufti Haj Mohammed Amin al-Husseini, ; twelve people are killed.

        4) 13 April –1948 The Hadassah medical convoy massacre, watched by British troops who declined to intervene & may in fact have acted as scouts for the Muftis gang

        • Marie Louise Noonan

          There is only a single mention of the bombing of the King David Hotel and it was made by you.

          and this: ‘ in the pay of the Mufti’ goes unchallenged in a publication dedicated to right wing values? Appalling.

          • mahatmacoatmabag

            MLN , its called anticipating the tack your opponent is most likely to bring up like :-
            Marie Louise Noonan • a month ago

            The Bombing of the King David Hotel

            USS Liberty

            The Lavon Affair

            Deir Yassin massacre

            And finally: the Samson Option.
            ——–
            Hoisted with your own petard !

            BTW MLN – you forgot to mention the Titanic

            • Marie Louise Noonan

              It’s just poor netiquette.

              And it’s ‘hoist’.

              • mahatmacoatmabag

                MLN , like all genetically self delusional anti-Semites , when caught out , you are not honest enough to admit the fact

                • Marie Louise Noonan

                  Anti-semite?

                  That’s so funny.. Was it intended to be?

                  Prove it..

                  My own particular approach to life is to view each as he comes, as infinitely complex characters, gifts encased with layers of wrapping. I don’t believe in collective guilt.

  • Katie

    There is definitely an upsurge in anti-Semitism lately and it seems like the far-right and people with Neo-Nazi sympathies have jumped on the bandwagon with regard to the current Gaza crisis and are hiding behind criticism of Israel as a way to create a ‘respectable’, politically-correct aura around what would normally be dismissed as their hateful and deranged worldview. To cite just one example, we had a friendly, intelligent and informative comment thread going on the online edition of my local newspaper the other day about our Welsh city’s Jewish community and its history – nothing to do with Israel at all. Then all of a sudden, the opportunists come on and start mentioning Israel – suggesting that Welsh Jews should go back to our own country…which is not only highly insulting but totally ridiculous as Wales is our country:
    http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/11394808.Newport_home_to_only_six_Jews/
    Over the past few weeks, legitimate criticism of Israeli government policies has also seen commenters slip in crazed anti-Semitic conspiracy theories and even elements of the old anti-Semitism of the medieval church seems to have resurfaced by those who still seem stuck in the mind-set of blaming Jewish people for the death of Jesus(!) When I used the report button to bring to the attention of the editor one, particular commenter on another post whom I was sure had violated the paper’s own terms and conditions by claiming that “the Jewish” (sic) controlled Wall Street and even the President of the USA, I did not even receive the courtesy of a reply and the comment is still up there.
    Yup, there’s definitely a lot of pent-up, previously latent anti-Semitism coming to the surface now – and in many cases the Israel-Palestine crisis is being used as an ‘excuse’ for it.

  • global city

    Kedem cosmetics in Manchester’s King St is being barracaded daily by some BDS loons. This is purely beause they are Jews….so.

    Buy as muh stuff as you can from them. If you live in Manchester go and support them by buying as much stock from them as possible.

    Boycott the boycotters. If there is an organisation or company associated with the bigots then be sure to deny them your custom. Make it painful for them.

    • Suzy61

      The council have finally demanded that the police take some action. This weekend will be a ‘show down’….I wonder how many protesters will take their children along – just for the fun of it?

      • global city

        Whilst they have the biggest mouths and the infuriating determination to infest everywhere with their presence, they are a small minority.

        Remember the recent massively publicised ‘Million man march for Gaza’ that attracted no more than 10k of the bigots?

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Anti-Semitism, Holocaust denial, Holocaust survivor… Calling at all Stations of the Cross. Enough, already. Pariah nation status beckons, Israel.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Yawn.

  • Donafugata

    Well said, Ed, as always.

    At least one can come to the Speccie and feel amongst friend, the usual culprits excepted.

    The MSM has been disgracefully biased,”Hamas on 4″ being beyond the pale.
    Now the claim is that a child, what else, has been killed deliberately by Israeli forces and only seconds after the end of the 72 hour ceasefire.

    But what ceasefire? Hamas rockets have continued and the MSM seem to think that that is normal and doesn’t count as an act of aggression.

    • Damaris Tighe

      The media are starting to print evidence that Hamas are firing missiles from civilian areas & the Mail even acknowledged that Israel notifies civilians of attacks.

      • TheUntalentedRiply

        Does that justify deliberately targeting civilian areas, homes, schools, market places, etc (as seen over many years in Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon)?

        • Damaris Tighe

          Yawn.

          • TheUntalentedRiply

            Sorry – I hope I haven’t written anything to disturb you from your bigoted slumbers.

  • Dave Roberts

    Let us work towards a demonstration/march through East London by Christians and Jews. Giles Fraser isn’t welcome.

    • Alexsandr

      Dewsbury?

  • Stu

    In response to Neil Gardner. Muslim Arab terrorists are real in case you hadn’t noticed. And frankly your question as to who is behind Hamas is the same sort of delusional conspiracy theory nonsense that claims the CIA crashed planes into the twin towers.

    Equally you haven’t answered one of my comments, all you have done is ask more questions, which is typical of someone who doesn’t have a cogent argument to back up their assertions.

    • Neil Gardner

      If this were just a dispute between Jewish settlers and Arab Palestinians, the conflict could have been resolved years ago. May I recommend Mark Curtis’s Secret Affairs: Britain’s Collusion with Radical Islam. It shows how over the last century and more Britain, France and later the US and its proxy have consistently armed one faction against another to prevent the Middle East from gaining control of its own oil. It has a whole chapter on MI6 involvement in the creation of the Muslim brotherhood, who incidentally are also behind ISIS / ISIL in Syria and Iraq. The same warmongers who support Israeli hawks, also supported Islamic fundamentalists in Libya and Syria. The same US administration that bankrolls Israel, also supports the autocratic Saudi Arabian regime. Please before you comment any further get a copy of the Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomsky to understand Israel’s real role, which actually has little to do with Israel/Palestine (same place, different names). May I suggest if Western countries had not destabilised the region for the last 100 years, Jewish settlers could have easily sought a very reasonable accommodation with their Arab neighbours.

      • Stu

        You still don’t answer my points. Then you ask me to read a book by Chomsky.

        Chomsky’s major claim is that Israel and the United States – especially the latter – are rejectionists opposed to peace, whereas the Arabs, including the PLO, for years have been trying to accommodate themselves to the reality of Israel.

        I have read some garbage about the Arab Israeli situation but Chomsky’s position is truly ludicrous. Why don’t you read Hamas’s stated intention of genocide towards the Jews before you make comments about reasonable accommodations.

        • Neil Gardner

          Why should the rights of the Jewish diaspora trump those of Arabs in the region? It seems to me both the real and perceived behaviour of Hamas serves the interests of Israeli hawks, who want to maintain a highly militarised state to police the Middle East. I believe ordinary Arabs want peace, as do long-term Jewish Israelis, but others lobbies more concerned with maintaining easy access to cheap oil and other resources do not. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is one square on a much larger chessboard.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Alan Dershowitz has answered Chomsky in one of his later books.

      • global city

        Noam Chomsky is a cnut.

  • Jabez Foodbotham

    “the psychological impact the Holocaust had on western consciences”

    This grandiose claim is often made but as I recall it was mainly regarded as just another of the nasty things that happened during WWII, until a fictional American TV series of that name was broadcast over 30 years after the event and provoked a wave of memorializing and breast-beating in the US and elsewhere which has continued to this day.
    If there has been a psychological impact it has been more a result of more recent relentless propagandizing than of the actual events themselves, at least among those not directly involved, i.e. almost everyone.

    • Augustus

      “If there has been a psychological impact it has been more a result of more recent relentless propagandizing…”

      No government in the world, before the Nazis came to power, could have embarked upon, and put into effect a policy of such mass Jewish extermination in the way in which they did without having a people who were willing to back them up and support them, and without having a large number of people who were prepared to carry out those murders themselves.

  • Fifteen Beats

    “In my depressing book on immigration…”

    Way to sell it.

  • Dave Roberts

    I recommend your book to everyone. Same on your publisher for the deletion. ow about including it in later editions as the book must be read for a reprint.

  • Stu

    I cant seem to reply to Neil Gardner’s last post so here it is. I notice you don’t make one mention of the rockets that Hamas fire on a daily basis into Israel. Let me list them some of them for you as they are not ineffective toys as some Muslim terrorist apologists claim: M302, long range missile, warhead 144kg’s range 160km’s, M75, warhead 60kg’s range 75km’s, GRAD warhead 45kg’s range 48km’s.

    I’m not Jewish but Israel has every right to protect itself from an aggressive terrorist organisation whose have stated their clear intent to destroy the state of Israel and Jews anywhere and by any means.

    If someone was firing rockets at your house on a daily basis, I don’t doubt that you would do all in your power to stop it. If that’s regional bullying then good for them.

    • Neil Gardner

      And who is really behind Hamas? Does it not serve the interests of Israeli hawks, the kind of people with dual citizenship, to have the spectre of Arab terrorists to justify Israel’s military excesses ?

      • Ordinaryman

        “spectre of Arab terrorists”. Surely, they’re a bit more than a spectre.

        • foto2021

          Gaza death toll 1800+, amost all civilians. Civilian death toll in Israel was 3. THREE.

          That is 600 Palestinians slaughtered for each civilian death in Israel.

          • John Dub

            So its a bad thing that HAMAS is not very good at killing jews?

            • TheUntalentedRiply

              No, it’s a bad thing (read war crime) that Hamas targets civilians and that the IDF kills nearly 2,000 civilians.

              • Ordinaryman

                Yes, we all know it’s a “bad thing” that people are dying. It is not the sole prerogative of the left to have some humanity. Therefore, instead of forever stating the obvious, do something positive and come up with a solution to the problems that exist. In the meantime, realise that Israel has a right to protect itself, something it’s pretty good at, a fact that should not have escaped the notice of anyone who takes them on and then suffers the consequences.

                • Damaris Tighe

                  Well said. I’m so sick of this tripe!

                • TheUntalentedRiply

                  Proportionate as in you don’t bomb the crap out of a densely populated civilian area because a terrorist fired a missile from it.

                • Ordinaryman

                  I think you probably meant that reply for me? Anyway, I’ll assume it was. Therefore, what would you consider as proportionate? As I said earlier, do you mean ‘an eye for an eye’, or do you have something else in mind. Unless you can come up with an effective alternative to what the Israelis are being forced to do, I suggest you desist from criticising them, and that applies to all who would have the Israelis sit back and just soak up the missiles that are being fired at them. Emotional arguments have no place in this debate, it’s far too serious for that.

                • TheUntalentedRiply

                  An alternative – sit down with Hamas and the PLO and hammer out a two state solution.

                • Ordinaryman

                  Oh dear! Where have you been for the last nearly fifty years??

                • TheUntalentedRiply

                  Find someone from the left and tell them that; I am definitely right wing, albeit I differ from the majority of the right of centre opinion on Israel.

                  Yes, Israel has a right to protect herself, however, it must be proportionate. I condemn both the IDF and Hamas.

                • Ordinaryman

                  “it must be proportionate”. You mean as in ‘an eye for an eye’?

          • Ordinaryman

            Palestinians are slaughtered, Israelis die (“each civilian death”). Subtle difference in terminology, I wonder why?

            • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

              He also says “almost all civilians” so there is no point even answering him.

            • TheUntalentedRiply

              “slaughter” vs “death”: 1800 vs 3 – not really subtle.

              • Ordinaryman

                If we are going to consider numbers, have you considered the number of rockets fired from the Palestinian side in an attempt to indiscriminately “slaughter” Israeli civilians? Also, there are 400million Arabs, why are they not rushing to give aid to the Palestinians? Does this not tell you something?

                • TheUntalentedRiply

                  If you are going to consider the number of rockets fired, perhaps you should also consider the number of days Gaza has been blockaded for. You might also consider the number of Palestinian refugees (both Christian and Muslim) who are denied a right of return. You might consider the number of “targeted” killings.

                  As I am not a spokesperson for the 400 million Arabs I wouldn’t know.

              • global city

                Israel protects its people…where are the Gazan bomb shelters and missile shield? When was the last time you heard about ‘Zionists’ forcing people into buildings targeted by Hamas? Despite all of the propaganda there are no reports of Jews locating their weapons in residential areas or schools and hospitals….despite this Hamas still target those sorts of facilities.

                as you say, ‘subtle’.

                • TheUntalentedRiply

                  1,800 Palestinians dead…oh yes, Israel protects herself (at least in the short time). It is odd that none of the UN officials at the UN-run schools bombed by Israel were aware that Hamas were using the school as a command center. Perhaps in future they could liaise with yourself before condemning the IDF for targeting civilians seeking shelter in one of their schools.

                  Still, look on the bright side; next time (and there will be a next time – Israel isn’t interested in a long term equitable solution) the IDF will be able to bomb UN-run orphanages (also no doubt command centers…).

                • global city

                  Honestly. Give it three months and you will not be able to sustain those ‘facts’. Happens every time.

                • TheUntalentedRiply

                  It’ll be the same old, same old: the Israelis will run to their US backers, have them lean on the UN, Europe will fall into line with the US/UN position and all the facts will remain but just be slowly forgotten.

                  Perhaps you could provide some evidence of where Hamas were using UN facilities as command centres in the past?

                • global city

                  Do it yourself; Look at the tripe you wrote in your first paragraph.If that does happen it will be the right path.

                • TheUntalentedRiply

                  “Do it yourself”..ha ha; in other words, you can’t. If you can’t back up what you claim! Perhaps in future you could preface your posts with “This is a work of fiction”.

                • global city

                  Don’t be stupid. Shall we do the same with all of your unsourced posts? Should I be judged by a different benchmark than you? You do not post peer reviewed waffle… as this because you cannot ‘back your claims’?

                  idiotic….we’re on a bloody website forum.

                • TheUntalentedRiply

                  You have made a claim regarding Hamas using UN schools as command posts, giving the appearance that you are passing off your personal opinion as fact. I asked you to back it up. You can’t.

                  If you want to have any credibility, don’t post false tripe.

                  If you want sources for any stats or claims I have made, please ask.

                  It is also rather amusing, and ironic, that you accuse me of stupidity when you are the one attempting to pass off falsehoods as facts. Priceless.

                • global city

                  and your position is backed by what ‘factual proof’? My point has been garnered by events like that being reported again and again, in conflict after conflict….. whilst you are being both contrary and wilfully ignorant of the facts. Where are your facts that prove that my position is based on falsehoods?

                  I said that I WON’T be spending time going through the internet for validations, not that I CAN’T. There is a fundamental difference.

                • mightymark

                  Not sure which school you are talking about but in one case the UN learnt to its, ahem, surprise that rockets were being stored there – and handed them back to Hamas!

                • TheUntalentedRiply

                  Indeed, and Hamas deserve total condemnation for this outrageous act of cowardice and total disregard for the UN, its staff and the civilians sheltering there.

                  Perhaps those who support Israel might condemn some of their excesses…

                • mightymark

                  Which excesses might those be? The average civilian:combatant death ratio for recent wars (late 20th to early 21st C) generally is roughly 3:1. The ratio in the previous two Gaza conflicts was almost 1:1 (54%:46%) and according to the BBC (sic) statistician the current war might well yield a similar ratio. When you consider the type of enemy and tactics israel is up against rather than condemn “excesses” one should probaly recall UK Col. Richard
                  Kemp’s view that the Israeli armed forces are the most moral on earth.

                • Marie Louise Noonan

                  ‘where are the Gazan bomb shelters and missile shield?’

                  Perhaps the US is unwilling to fund them.

                • global city

                  Ah, yes….someone’s prepared to pay for those tunnels though, hey? I wonder who that is?

                  I wonder why Hamas don’t put the material, engineering talent and labour (children, many die) to use building the shelters instead? Who knows?

                • Marie Louise Noonan

                  State of the art military equipment versus tunnels.

                  The Middle East is renowned for its ‘tunnel system’ which has been in existence for Millennia. I wouldn’t be surprised if groups such as The Irgun made good use of them.

          • global city

            so say Hamas

      • global city

        Wilfully blind goon, fixated on the Jew.

        • TheUntalentedRiply

          “whistling tunes we piss on the goons in jungle – it’s a knockout. If looks could kill they probably will in games without frontiers, war without tears”.

      • Marie Louise Noonan

        Is the Yank-funded anti-missile system ‘Iron Dome’ not doing its job?

    • Damaris Tighe

      I’ve stopped calling them ‘rockets’ as so many idiots think they are ‘toys’ (note the infantilising of brown skinned people). I now call them what they are: missiles.

      • Ed LoveNest

        Stop using quote marks blackie lol

  • trace9

    I wonder how many muslims would agree with Any Israel’s right to exist, anywhere – even on an isolated island? Even theoretically.. – Can’t one self-publish on the Web now, telling the ‘whole truth’ as you see it? Tut.

  • Damaris Tighe

    “Only” half of muslims in Britain agree with Israel’s right to exist. I’m amazed (seriously) that it’s that high. If it’s true the percentage must be much higher than that of the metropolitan elite.

    • global city

      Vital points that most people ignore.

      Most Muslims are ‘bad Muslims’, in that they do not follow the mad incitements in the Koran.

      Our political elite is utterly detached from us and they are treacherous.

  • Kitty MLB

    Oh its utterly disgraceful, morally wrong and unfair. Israel is not the one trying to send
    everyone to oblivion. Just a small country trying to defend itself. Hamas and all Muslims think of Jews and Christian as infidels. And those too religions should really be defending each other from the barbaric medieval cult.
    But its not your fault Ed, we now cower to Islam ( who would kill us in a blink of an eye) and there are an awful lot of Muslims living in this country. Maybe people don’t
    want to stoke flames. We are hardly safe anymore.

    • Shazza

      Totally agree Kitty about Jews and Christians defending themselves.

      When Jesus said ‘turn the other cheek’ he did not mean ‘lie down and die’.

      I

      • Jack

        What you say and think may be right or wrong, but you are no Biblical scholar, Shazza, and you should hesitate before claiming to know absolutely the meaning of words that come, supposedly from the son of god himself. Which part of the following suggests returning violence with violence, be specific if you can so we can all share your wisdom. Please also let us know how much you love and pray for your enemies, because it seems like you hate them. We need clarification.

        “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h]39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

        43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

        • global city

          Remember the pastor, played by Jack Hawkins in Zulu?

          Idiots throwing about random quotes from some old book….. the source of most of the problems.

          • Marie Louise Noonan

            A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Lethal in some cases.

  • Shazza

    A lot of this can be laid at the feet of the likes of Jon Snow/BBC/MSM for pouring petrol on this Hamas/Israel war.

    The coverage is so biased, so blatantly anti Israel pro Hamas that it is inflammatory. Where there is proof that Hamas deliberately uses children as human shields, deliberately fires it’s missiles and stores them in schools, hospitals, etc. the MSM ignores it – blindly accepting Hamas’s propaganda.
    Read Paul Weston’s factual report at the Gates of Vienna site on the success of Hamas’s propaganda.

    A sad fact is that the larger the moslem community in any country, the larger the anti Semitism movement grows.
    This hatred has very little to do with modern Israel – Hamas BTW is merely obeying the koranic instructions on dealing with Jews and infidels – Gaza is just very useful to stir up age old hatreds.

    The Left has decided to throw not only Israel under the bus, but Jewish people as well. The moslem voting bloc is of paramount importance to Labour so lip service of ‘concern’ over attacks on Jews/Synagogues will be mealymouthed.

    It seems that the British people have been seriously hoodwinked into believing that Jews and not moslems are the cause of most of the global strife.

    Do people really, really believe that should Israel cease to exist, that anti Semitism is going to vanish? This blind koranic inspired hatred has given legitimacy to an old hatred that resulted in the Holocaust and that civilised people thought had been destroyed in 1945.

    • Kitty MLB

      Very well said Shazza. indeed the West knows Islam is a danger yet we have allowed them to live amongst us..their beloved hellhole in the desert
      is so wonderful and we are all ‘ the devil’ yet they all want to live here.
      And we have been silenced. by the Left and all those who support them.

    • Reconstruct

      That said, I almost felt sorry for Krisha Guramurthy on C4 News last night, so thoroughly was his attitudinising about Israel exposed. Very difficult to take him seriously as a journalist after that.

      • Alexsandr

        have you ever?

    • Alexsandr

      if they destroyed all the jews they will find someone else to hate. I’d say the Christians are next in line.

      • global city

        First the Saturday people then the Sunday people…..famous old Islamist refrain.

      • Marie Louise Noonan

        Because Christians are never anti Semitic either. Well, they were until about five minutes ago in cosmological terms.

        • Jackthesmilingblack

          Every Easter up until 1964, the Catholic Church was preaching from the pulpit that the Jews were collectively guilty of diecide. Namely, the killing of God in the figure of Jesus Christ, which led directly to anti-Jewish pogroms.

          • Marie Louise Noonan

            Sarcasm alert II.

    • The_Missing_Think

      ‘We’ can have ancient ties to land, but Palestinians can’t?.. yeah… sure, enjoy Londonistan et al, no poetic justice, going off on your watch, eh? back to slee… zzzzzzz.

  • Martin Adamson

    Why should it make you ashamed? You are not causing it, and you are doing everything you can to fight against it. I’m sick and tired of this charade whereby people feel the need to confess guilt to things they cannot possibly be blamed for.

    • Ordinaryman

      It’s to do with the white, middle-class, masochistic guilt trip they obtained during their left-wing education, particularly, in my experience, at university. In simple words; it makes them feel good, sub-conciously, to feel guilty about being a member of a western, democratic, wealthy society.

      • Martin Adamson

        Absolutely. It’s unfortunate that even a thinker normally as independent and courageous as Ed falls for this obvious con-trick.

      • Tom M

        If I can add that my brother is one of those you describe. The only background difference between us is he worked in a nationalised industry all his life. I blame the by-far-too-comfortable-existence he had for all those years for his political views.

  • Neil Gardner

    I condemn all attacks on people because of their ethnicity or religion, but please do not confuse anti-Semitism with opposition to the Israeli state’s murderous actions, aided and abetted by billions of dollars of US military subsidies. Just as one can be pro-American, but oppose US imperialism or Germanophile, but fiercely anti-Nazi, it is perfectly possible to differentiate the acts of Israel from the Jewish people at large. Indeed one may even argue that Israel’s actions in Gaza mark the beginning of the end for the Zionist dream.

    • The Masked Marvel

      Indeed it is possible, for a tiny minority. Perhaps if those who so loudly oppose Israel on this matter spent more energy on regimes with a much higher body count, you might be on to something.

      • global city

        They do not have the slightest interest in doing that.

        • The Masked Marvel

          Indeed they do not. Especially given that ‘critics of Israel’ like Mr. Gardner above are really hoping for an end to the Zionist Entity.

          • global city

            They talk about being against ‘Zionism’ as though this is some sort of abstract, philosophical point, when the end of the Zionist project is the destruction of Israel and the removal of the Jews from ‘Palestine’.

            • The Masked Marvel

              They don’t have to mention that. As Mr. Gardner also makes clear, it will be the Jews’ own fault, so no need to fret over spilt Jewish blood.

    • Nkaplan

      Murder is deliberate and intentional killing. Whatever one thinks of the Israeli action in Gaza, it is clearly not the case that the IDF deliberately and intentionally kills civilians – in fact they go to very great lengths to minimise the number of such casualties. It is Hamas, not Israel, who deliberately and intentionally target and kill innocent civilians (including their own).

      • TheUntalentedRiply

        Semantics. If you fire a missile knowing that it is likely to kill your target and numerous innocent civilians then surely it doesn’t matter whether it is your intention to kill those civilians or not.

        • Nkaplan

          Not if you’ve gone to great lengths to avoid those casualties – for instance dropping leaflets, making phone calls, leaving messages, dropping dud ‘bombs’ (the so-called) knock on the roof and calling off air-strikes where it is evident that too many civilians are in harms way – all to warn civilians to leave the area of an otherwise legitimate military target. There comes a point where deaths caused are not the moral responsibility of those firing the weapons but of those ordering people to stay behind and act as human shields.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Yawn.

    • Augustus

      Your last sentence reveals the truth. What bugs you is the fact that the Jewish people actually chose to return to their historical homeland. For 2,000 years the Jewish people have served as a terrestrial substitute for the celestial Lamb of God (Agnus Dei: “Behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world”). It wasn’t just one Galilean Jew who was crucified in the first century, but millions of Jews who were habitually crucified for thousands of years. Within the framework of the political correctness mechanism that you have constructed, it is easier to speak out against Israel than against the Jews. But we all know that it is the same thing. And now you delude yourself into thinking that if you sacrifice Israel, the Muslims will let you be. Muslims sense that, but there is something standing in the way. There is one irritating obstacle that is growing and blossoming in front of them against all odds. That thing, stopping them from destroying the West, is the State of Israel.

      • Neil Gardner

        Indeed in an ideal world, all peoples would have a viable homeland and live in peace and full respect with all the other peoples on the planet. Trouble is various imperialist forces insisted on conquering other people’s land and imposing their cultural hegemony. Now thanks to globalisation and multiculturalism, few countries are ethnically homogeneous. Just as White Europeans ethnically cleansed Aboriginal Australians (a crime too few acknowledge), European countries are now undergoing rapid ethnic cleansing, so parts of London or Göteborg now resemble Dhaka or Tehran. Indeed Israel is more culturally Jewish than London is culturally Christian or even English. If we returned all countries to their ethnic composition of 2000 years ago, then much of modern Anatolia would be Greek and the Turks would still be in Central Asia.
        I detect a a large dose of hypocrisy in the thinking of many pro-Israelis. If you want a Jewish state in the Middle East, you will have to live in peace with the regions other indigenous inhabitants an stop creating refugees.

        • Alexsandr

          i would check out what happened when Israel was created in 1948. The UN resolution mandated a 2 state solution. Israel accepted, the Arabs didnt and invaded Israel. If the Arabs had accepted the UN resolution how might history be different.

          • mightymark

            He might also usefully check out what happened in 1967!

            • Valerie

              The Arab countries attacked Israel and lost again.

          • TheUntalentedRiply

            Israel was created with the blood of murdered British soldiers who had been posted their to try and prevent the massive (and unwanted by the indigenous population) influx of an alien people. This is something many posters here appear to overlook. There is an irony that a state in part founded through terrorism seeks to justify its war crimes through “fighting terrorism”.

      • TheUntalentedRiply

        On that basis both homosexuals and gypsies should have their own state. As for Israel and Jews being the “same thing” surely such thinking rationalises attacks on Jews: Jews = Israel, Israel = Jews.

        It strikes me that Israel is the product of mass immigration and political correctness forced by the western powers onto an indigenous population; as per Fiji, the results are hardly harmonious. The issue here really shouldn’t be about people’s anti-muslim bigotry, but more about the effects of mass immigration, imo.

    • global city

      Do you mean blah, blah, blah…or did you mean moooooooooooo?

  • Spectre

    I am never ashamed of being British, but I am often given cause to feel ashamed of my countrymen.

    • IainRMuir

      No “countrymen” that I’m acquainted with have changed their attitude towards Jews.

      Who are these “countrymen”, I wonder?

      • The Masked Marvel

        Many are BBC staff.

        • IainRMuir

          Yes, and crackpot Guardian readers, and the sort of people who never grew up beyond the Che Guevara T-shirt phase.

          • The Masked Marvel
            • IainRMuir

              Tempted to buy one.

              Alternatively, a shirt bearing some of Che’s interesting comments on black people. Would probably get me arrested though.

          • Alexsandr

            socialism has a history of jew hating going back to before Marx.

            • Marie Louise Noonan

              Say what?

            • Daidragon

              Fair play. You are the gift that just keeps on giving.

      • Spectre

        I was referring to indigenous Brits who seem to think it makes sense to support people who are neither Western nor liberal against people who are.

        • Wessex Man

          Are you referring by chance to many many indigenous Brits like myself who are horrified by the justification sought and granted here by trying to equate Israeli to all things Jewish, no matter how many Jews chose to live in Israel many many more did not. When confronted with what Israel does in retaliation for the rocket attacks most of them are as horrified as anyone else.

          it’s sadly ironic that Jews living in Europe and here are being attacked by people, who I agree shouldn’t be here, because of the actions of Israel!

          I now await the attacks that will come upon me for stating the obvious!

          • IainRMuir

            Rockets ….. and tunnels, which are conveniently not mentioned. Tunnels which could allow an incursion force capable of killing a very large number of Israelis.

            • Pootles

              Apparently, recently the new (anti-Muslim Brotherhood) Egyptian government simply sealed up, with tons of concrete, the tunnels running into Egypt. Is there any reason why that wasn’t an option for Israel? I’m asking this as a genuine question, not in an ironic fashion.

              • Santos2

                Jew hating scum!

          • telemachus

            Wessex old chap
            This is sound common sense and what I have been saying and vilified for these last 3 weeks
            I hope you fare better

            • Spectre

              Please see my reply to WessexMan. Thank you.

            • Inverted Meniscus

              You never talk sense and deserve all the vilification that comes your fetid socialist nutter way.

          • Spectre

            Preferably, I would have us ignore the whole conflict: it has nothing to do with us and i’m fed-up with partisans dragging us into other people’s squabbles. I would be incandescent with rage if Arabs and Israelis started telling us how to handle the IRA. However, I am forced to venture an opinion because a disturbing number of Westerners appear to be siding with Muslims here and abroad who loathe the West and wish us harm. I feel utterly dejected by the insanity of it all. For God’s sake, if you must pick a side, pick the side of those who are like us and with whom we could actually work!

            • Alexsandr

              septics interfered in the IRA conflict. Raised the IRA quite a lot of money I believe. NORAID.

            • Chris Morriss

              And who are they? You cannot really be suggesting that the Israelis are ‘like’ us? Israel as a society is an American veneer on a deeply alien core.

              • Spectre

                They’re more akin to us than are the Arabs.

                • Marie Louise Noonan

                  The Ay-Rabs.

              • Marie Louise Noonan

                This is a British publication.

                • Jackthesmilingblack

                  What’s your point? Are you suggesting that only Caucasian Brits, resident in UK are eligible to submit contributions? Is it essential to support a football team and eat British food?
                  Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

                • Marie Louise Noonan

                  You seem to be seeing things that aren’t actually there.

              • IainRMuir

                A “veneer” with a very clear understanding, appreciation and application of Western technology then.

          • Chris Morriss

            Most Ashkenazi jews of the diaspora are not even remotely semitic.

            • Samir Halabi

              Funny isn’t it that your descendants in Britain used to shout out to those so called ‘Ashkenazi-Jews’ go back to Palestine where you all belong and originated from. The overwhelming majority of Ashkenazi Jews still to this day look Semitic. I know an Ashkenazi couple who vacationed in Salcombe South-Devon, when they entered a shop the salesperson asked them if they came from Turkey or Lebanon. So what are you talking about. DNA genetic testing today has proved that they share the same gene pool with Sephardic or Mizrahi
              Jews. Hitler murdered 6,000,000 Jews in world war two, he didn’t ask are they Ashkenazi, Sephardic or Mizrahi, he didn’t care whether or not they were from Poland, Algeria, and Libya.

      • Makroon

        If West would stop using the idiot and meaningless epithet “anti-semitic”, we might find out. There are anti-Israel protests, then there are anti-jewish hate crimes – often by people of ethnic “semitic” background (taking that archaic term in it’s original meaning).
        West is either stupid or manipulative in trying to pretend they are the same.

        • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

          No, it is you who is stupid or maybe just ignorant of the term that has been used for over 140 years to mean exactly what you are saying it doesn’t mean.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

      • Robertus Maximus

        Quite. I never hear even one anti-Semitic remark from anyone, but then I do not mix with Muslims or the Left. Both myself and my fellow countrymen fix their attention on the real blight that has infected this planet.

        • Marie Louise Noonan

          Because only Muslims are anti-Semitic. And Israel was founded on leftism.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            “Because only Muslims are anti-Semitic.”
            Something of a sweeping statement I venture to suggest.

            • Marie Louise Noonan

              Sarcasm alert.

    • Kitty MLB

      Indeed, pray tell us sir who are these countrymen, assuming
      they are our countrymen and not the lodgers.

      • Marie Louise Noonan

        No lodgers here in 1947.

  • fathomwest

    I share the concern as well. We have seen the slaughter of a British soldier on the streets of London. Sadly I believe we shall soon see the slaughter of a Jew on our streets and absolutely nothing will be done about the enemy within until a Member of Parliament or Establishment figure is slaughtered.
    Weak politicians both local and national have allowed the growth of Islam into this Country and we shall all rue the day.

  • MountainousIpswich

    Why is anti semitism fashionable again?

    I don’t know? Maybe it’s to do with the Zionist murder of hundreds upon hundreds of innocent children?

    • Archibald Heatherington

      Go and read some of Douglas Murray’s articles, you platitudinous, pusillanimous, vituperative, imbecilic πτωκος!

      • MountainousIpswich

        Oh look, murdering people and then insulting those who tell you that murder is wrong.

        • Inverted Meniscus

          But it is fine for Hamas to murder people is it lad?

          • MountainousIpswich

            Really?

            Please find one single comment of mine where I state that it is ok for Hamas to murder people. When you can’t, please eat your words.

            Although if we really need to state it. Hamas has killed 5 civilians in this current conflict. 5. Israel has killed 1,900+.

            You can try and change the subject as much as you like. You can try and deflect the blame onto Hamas as much as you like. It doesn’t change the fact that Israel has committed war crimes and mass murder.

            • Damaris Tighe

              I’m not going to rehearse the arguments about intent all over again. You are an idiot of the first order.

              • MountainousIpswich

                Wow, I’m shamed. Being called an idiot by someone who supports the murder of children. Oh noes, whatever shall I do.

                You have blood on your hands Lady MacBeth. However much you wash them, it will never come out.

            • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

              How do you get 5? What about the dozens of collaborators shot? What about those killed at funerals (FFS!), what about the misfired missiles killing dozens (maybe even hundreds), what about the hundreds killed digging the tunnels, what about the human shields that Hamas admit doing (so even you can’t deny it)…any more?

          • TheUntalentedRiply

            seemingly for many here it is fine to murder women and children, if they are Palestinian (or should that be muslim)…

            • Inverted Meniscus

              No civilised person likes to see anybody being killed laddie and so I suggest that you tell your friends in Hamas to stop firing rockets at Israel and then you could stop whining, wringing your hands and indulging in sanctimony.

              • TheUntalentedRiply

                Nah, I’d tell my friends in Hamas to only target IDF military targets: cut out the attacks on the civilian population (we all know that the IDF will continue to shoot and bomb civilians, UN schools, hospitals, mosques, etc etc). Then you and the other anti-muslim Israel fan boys here could exercise your impressive intellects on finding new excuses for the actions of those you worship. Laddie.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  It really is dispiriting to communicate with somebody as intellectually inferior as yourself. Ask yourself, what should Israel do in the face of these rocket attacks? I will give you a clue, nothing is not an option.

        • Damaris Tighe

          The news for the last couple of days has been full of nothing but the very real genocide in Iraq by psychopathic Islamists, yet all you can do is parrot on about Israel “murdering” people? Have you even noticed what is happening in Iraq or is your obsession with the Jewish State blinding you to anything else?

          • MountainousIpswich

            ISIS has no supporters here. I will condemn anyone who supports ISIS. They are evil murderers.

            But regardless, this news article is about Israel – not ISIS. I know you’d like to change the subject to deflect away from the fact that you have blood on your hands. Same sort of arguments used by other murderers – such as Goering and Goebbels at Nuremberg, by Saddam in Iraq, by Milosevic.

            I condemn all murderers. I especially condemn those who murder children. I invite you to do the same.

            But all you can do is defend those who murder children. So don’t f***ing take a high and mighty tone with me. Don’t play morality with me. You are supporting war crimes, you are supporting the deaths of thousands of children. You will answer for the blood on your hands, if not in a court of law then the final court.

            Please – just say, straight out – do you condemn the murders of children – wherever and whenever they occur and whoever they occur to?

            You can’t can you. Because to do so would be to condemn Israel for murdering children, and you can’t do that. And that makes you complicit in child murder. Just like the Nazis killed Anne Frank at just 16 years old, you have joined their ranks.

            If ISIS came on here I’d put the same argument to them, and they’d be just as heartless and evil as you. They aren’t on here. You are. Please, feel free to attempt to justify killing children and then go away and realise that you have become a monster.

        • TheUntalentedRiply

          MoutainousIpswich, how dare you disagree with Archibald fucktwat: you must share his opinion you moron – his ego demands it!

    • RichardBaranov

      Yes, and you are the sort of disgusting cretin who would say absolutely nothing if those innocent children were Jewish.
      Hamas murdered those children, not Israel.

      • MountainousIpswich

        Israel fired the missiles. Israel is responsible for their deaths.

        Let’s take your argument and apply it to a different situation shall we? The Jews resisted the Nazis. Therefore it is the Jews fault that the Nazis rounded them up and put them into gas chambers.

        You are pathetic.

        • girondas2

          All hamas has to do is top firing rockets at israel and stop running around screaming for the death of anyone and everyone who doesn’t follow the teaching of that medieval pschopath mohamed and children won’t get killed will they?
          The jews did not resist the nazis unfortunately, but they learnt the lesson – evil must be fought.
          The events in Iraq show us just how evil the enemies of civilization are.

          • MountainousIpswich

            Everytime Jews fail to take responsibility for the actions of the Israeli government, and try and blame Hamas for their missiles killing children, they simply turn one more person anti semitic. Keep at it, you’re doing a wonderful job.

            • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

              Let’s say you are throwing bricks at a car with intent to kill the driver; the same car you threw bricks at every day; one day the driver swerves towards you mainly to stop you by force; but I was with you and say I was to throw you in front of the car, with intent to kill you; would your family would blame the car driver?

              • TheUntalentedRiply

                Perhaps a better analogy would be that the car driver swerves, kills a few of the people throwing stones but kills dozens more who happen to be friends or relatives of the stone throwers, either deliberately or recklessly.

                • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

                  Unfortunately that wouldn’t be a better analogy; maybe if I’d changed ‘stones’ for ‘rockets’, well, no, soon it wouldn’t be an analogy: what I was trying to point out and what you are willfully ignoring is that the wrong people are being blamed: Hamas is causing the killing, they are to blame.

                • TheUntalentedRiply

                  I disagree with you. Hamas are firing missiles in part due to Israel’s blockade of Gaza. This is not to forgive such terrorist acts, however, until both sides sit down a find a lasting solution the end result is that civilians will die.

                  Undoubtedly Hamas have much to answer for, however, Israel’s response is so heavy handed, indiscriminate and kills so many civilians, that it is little short of obscene. The IDF cannot easily wash the blood of women and children off its hands by claiming “they started it.

                  In the longer term, Israel is writing her own death warrant; eventually the Palestinian population of Israel will be in the majority – what revenge will the take on the Jewish population then?

                • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

                  Well actually I agree with most of that! However, it doesn’t take a lot to show that one side does not want peace. Even Egypt and Jordan are totally fed up with the situation (and have been for quite some time).

                  However I disagree that the response is indiscriminate and if you take human shields out of the situation it isn’t heavy handed either: how many innocents would have died if the people were allowed to take shelter AWAY from rocket sites?

                • logdon

                  You know nothing.

                  Try Honest Reporting or CAMERA for the genocidal hate filled screeds pouring out of Gaza every day.

                  That includes from schoolchildren.

                  Then again the Hamas Charter explains all but that upsets your little deluded narrative and that wouldn’t do at all.

                  Would it?

        • Colonel Mustard

          He might be pathetic but you are undoubtedly monumentally stupid. And creepy with it.

        • RichardBaranov

          Israel is not responsible for their deaths. Hamas chose to constantly fire rockets into Israel long before Israel retaliated. You are the sort of Jew hater that expects Israel to just take it. A good Jew is a dead Jew in your eyes.

          The Jews were not provoking the Nazis, other than by existing, before they were sent to the gas chambers.

          Your analogy does not hold, along with your other venomous remarks. Further, the overwhelming majority of Palestinians killed have been men of fighting age. Even if anti-Semitic propaganda from the left would have it otherwise. ”

          The (New York) Times analysis, looking at 1,431 names, shows that the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll.

          Just one of the problems cites by the Times is that:

          Human rights groups acknowledge that people killed by Hamas as collaborators and people who died naturally, or perhaps through domestic violence, are most likely counted as well.”

          And, the B.B.C.

          “If the Israeli attacks have been ‘indiscriminate,’ as the UN Human Rights Council says, it is hard to work out why they have killed so many more civilian men than women…

          …In conclusion, we do not yet know for sure how many of the dead in Gaza are civilians and how many were fighters. This is in no sense the fault of the UN employees collecting the figures – their statistics are accompanied by caveats and described as preliminary and subject to to revision.

          But it does mean that some of the conclusions being drawn from them may be premature.”
          But Hey, don’t let a few facts get in the way of your anti-Semitism.

          • TheUntalentedRiply

            UNICEF have cited that 400 children have been killed by the IDF in the recent fighting, whilst 2,500 more have been injured. UN schools have been hit (presumably you believe the women and children sheltering there were terrorists?).

            Since 2000 1,500 Palestinian children have been killed by the IDF and between 3,500 – 4,500 Palestinian civilians killed. According to the UN over 10,000 civilian homes have been destroyed or severely damaged recently and the IDF have fired missiles and dropped bombs in a place with a density of 1,500 people per square kilometer.

            Israel also continues to refuse to allow Palestinian refugees to return to their homes whilst encouraging continued immigration for Jews to Israel.

            But hey, don’t let a few facts get a few facts get in the way of your anti-Palestinian bigotry.

      • TheUntalentedRiply

        What utter rubbish: Israel has chosen to blockade Gaza, it has chosen to fire missiles at civilian areas, it has chosen to kill nearly 2,000 civilians. Yes, Hamas are war criminals and deserve nothing but condemnation and scorn, but that does not detract from the IDF’s indiscriminate, reckless actions that even our own pm has intimated are war crimes.

        • RichardBaranov

          Hamas has fired over 3,000 rockets at Israel this year, unprovoked, and you expect Israel not to react. And it is factually inaccurate to claim that the IDFs actions are : ” indiscriminate, reckless actions that even our own pm has intimated are war crimes.” War crimes they are not. Go and do some research because you are certainly untalented in the fact department. Hamas chose to kill, not Israel, they chose to defend themselves and rightly so. We would do as much in the same circumstances.

          • TheUntalentedRiply

            I agree that Hamas are terrorists and have provoked Israel, but that does not excuse Israel from slaughtering the Palestinian population: the ends does not justify the means.

            In terms of Cameron’s comments: I disagree – his support and agreement of Ban Ki Moon’s comments, wherein the aforesaid gentleman stated that some of the IDF’s actions amount to war crimes.

            Until Israel decides to treat the Palestinians will decency and reach an agreed two-state solution, Hamas will resist through a campaign of terrorism; Israel knows this but is happy with the status quo.

            As for what we would do…in Northern Ireland I don’t remember us mass bombing catholic housing estates, or blockading them…

        • Valerie

          Google Colonel Richard Kemp, former head of British forces in Afghanistan and read what he has to say.
          Even the BBC is now reporting that Hamas have been firing from civilian areas as have many other reporters now that they are out of reach of the Hamas thugs who threaten their lives.

          • TheUntalentedRiply

            So does that justify bombing civilian houses?

            A group of idiots fire a missile ’round the corner from you house – so you deserve to die?

    • JB_1966

      That will explain the hatred of Muslims then, will it, with their slaughter one tens of thousands of innocent children over the past decade? Glad to clear that up.

  • Archibald Heatherington

    I fancy the hardback edition. Does anybody want to buy a Peugeot?

    • Kitty MLB

      Archie dear old chap. One cannot take part in the Monte Carlo Peugeot.
      my little Ginetta made in the 50s ( before I were even born) is far more suitable.
      Even in this country driving though the West Country lanes or visiting the north Norfolk Coast with the wind in my chestnut corkscrew hair with a picnic,
      Eliot or Wodehouse on the backseat. ( once nearly ran over a New Forest pony) how will that be possible in a Peugeot. So no I shall not buy it. But
      if you ever want to borrow mine just ask.

      • Archibald Heatherington

        Awfully nice of you. I’ll have to work out some other way to raise the funds to buy the book.

        • Kitty MLB

          Archie. What about Kindle? I know its the feel and smell of paper.. plastic is hardly the same. Good luck with it anyway.

    • Kitty MLB

      Monte Carlo rally and not Peugeot..apologies..I am all a fluster.

    • Damaris Tighe

      If you can’t wait for the 2nd edn next month, Archie, you can buy a copy for £14.50 from http://www.abebooks.co.uk

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