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Will the BBC accept that Hamas wants to kill lots of Jews?

15 July 2014

9:32 AM

15 July 2014

9:32 AM

A fairly typically partisan report on the Israel and Palestine crisis last night
on the BBC ten O Clock News. The focus was entirely on the killed or injured
Palestinians, referred to exclusively as ‘civilians’; the point was made, at
the top of the report, that Hamas had killed nobody. Yes, but only because
Hamas is utterly useless: it clearly WANTS to kill lots of people, which is
why, on a daily basis, it bungs over the rockets – indiscriminately – in an
attempt to do so. The rockets which precipitated this crisis. We are enjoined
to have sympathy for the Palestinians and treat the Israelis with odium because
the former are murderous and incompetent and the latter murderous and adept. It
is an infantile sensibility.

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Show comments
  • Lydia Robinson

    Anyone who reads the history of the Arab conquests know that for 1,300 years Arabs have been invading, colonising, expanding territory and occupying other lands from Europe to China – behaviour which they are still engaging in. Spain is a notable example and it took them 8 centuries to rid Spain of the occupiers. But the Graun, the Al Beebajeera and Channel 4 prefer to shriek about Israel’s occupation and colonialism. As Bat Yeor correctly identified in her scholarly book, this was because our elites in Europe decided to court the Arabs for their oil post WW2. I expect the Graun and Al Beebajeera and Jon Snow would be upset to know that they’re doing the capitalist elites job very well for them.

  • Nelson Ricardo

    Rod Liddle you’re an ignorant idiot! there is No excuse for attacking and bombing, two (2) schools and a hospital, killing Innocent women and children, you should be ashame to defend Jews after the all the atrocities they have committed.

  • Mark Faulkner

    Rod liddle just makes himself look like an ill educated fool with this kind of post. It shows he has zero understanding of the long term misery israel has subjected the pelestinian people to. All hamas want is an end to the siege and rights to the land that has been stolen and ilegally occupied (backed by UN resolutions). Israel has stolen land, stolen gaza’s offshore gas wells, met peaceful protest with violence killed thousands of innocents and tried to frame Hamas for the deaths of 3 teenagers when they knew all along it wasn’t Hamas. Hamas have made every effort to try and do this peacefully over the last 2 years including handing over their elected position to Fatah and the palestinian authority, yet still Israel wont end the siege and encourages other countries not to recognise the reconciliation government. Is it any surprise they resort to violent resistance? (A right under international law). Go read “the general’s son” a book aboit a great zionist general who was influential in the 1967 war and eventually realised how he was fooled amd turned to peace.

  • Thaddeus lovelock

    Hamas has very long history of targeting Israeli civilians, I remember in the 9Os there was constant stream of suicide bombings in public areas, such as cafes, and on buses.

  • Harry Pond

    I have a cunning plan.
    a/ We all know the Jews need a homeland and Britain and America were a bit cackhanded when they created it.
    b/ We all know the old testament which is fair enough etc.
    c/ Why don’t we just all accept that the Jews are an advanced democratic civilisation living in a region full of medieval tent dwellers who have a few hundred years till they hit some sort of enlightenment. I.e. let them deal with their own problems.(as we did)
    d/ There is a state within the USA called Montana populated by three million people who generally would welcome hardworking pious folk..
    e/ Perhaps a few heads could be knocked together and the holy sites in Jerusalem could be turned into some sort of new Vatican kind of thing.
    f/ The people in Montana would be compensated for any losses etc. Which for the rest of us taxpayers would probably work out quite well.
    g/ Precis: Move the entire population of Israel to Montana and create some sort of enclave around the holy sites.
    h/ Problem solved!!

    • mightymark

      It would have been better of you had gone to bed before you posted your very, very stupid post!

      • Harry Pond

        ok mate, I was pissed! just thinking out loud- I’ll go to bed

    • David

      In fact, this is not a stupid comment even though perhaps you don’t know why. Let me explain.

      It proves that religion is the problem. You constantly hear religious apologists tell us it is all about land and politics, not religion. Well, what if the US did offer Montana as a homeland for the Jews? Israel as it is today could escape all its enemies – including Iran and Hezbollah. They could have a huge homeland, enjoy a quiet life under the protection of America, no rocket fire, no suicide bombers, no dead soldiers, ample finance, free to practice their religion and watch re-runs of Seinfeld on cable. Ask yourselves, would they accept the offer? We all know the answer is ‘no’ because regardless of territory and politics, Montana is not the land promised to them by God in his role as an omniscient estate agent.

      • Harry Pond

        Um- could you just remind me where in the bible the Jews were given that particular piece of land etc Sat co-ordinates if possible. I’d like the chapter and verse David.

        • David

          To Abraham – Genesis 15. 18-21. To his grandson Jacob – Genesis 28. 13.

          • Harry Pond

            But I went to a posh school like you, There are really NO arguments left. I just like to think beyond the beyond. If you and me had to sort things out, maybe we could? ( I’v had to scrabble about and get my bible out to check your facts!!) I really just don’t like the destruction.

            • Harry Pond

              P.S. I went out with a girl called Anushka from 83 to 86 so I am bias.

              • David

                Harry. There comes a time in your life when you have to rise above taking refuge in consensus. Just because people say something over and over again doesn’t make it true. Scrutinize every fact and dig down to get at the truth. Discover the documented facts before reading opinion. So many people are ignorant on this forum and in our country as a whole. For example, it is almost a given fact in this country that the initial problem was that the Jews stole Arab land. Nobody questions anyone who says this but it isn’t true. Tell you what – go and find out the truth about who owned the land and how Jews got it and tell me what you discover.

                • Harry Pond

                  ‘refuge in consensus’ ! is that you latest ‘track’

                • David

                  What are you talking about you idiot? Child? I happen to actually know the facts and history behind the conflict which nobody else on this forum does.

                • Harry Pond

                  fuck off child

          • Harry Pond

            Have you ever read Sarum by Edward Rutherford? Its a good made up yarn, but good.

          • Harry Pond

            so I’m speaking to an absolute prat!!

      • Harry Pond

        OK- I’m stupid and am going to bed.

        • Harry Pond

          Surely it should be yourself, not yourselves, if you are responding to the singular?

          • Harry Pond

            anyway, I’m nearly out of baccy so its up the great wooden mountain to slumberland.

  • Harry Pond

    The way I see it, and I must be a bit thick in BBC circles, is that the young hothead thugs who are gagging for a fight at all costs are killing their mothers and children.
    If you stop firing your stupid rockets the bloodshed will stop you dickheads.

  • Liz

    Has anyone on this thread actually taken into account the history of the conflict and the reasons for it? Michael Rosen writes a very good analogy:

    I’ve moved into your room and moved you out. You try to get back in. Barack Obama tells me that I’m entitled to defend myself against you.

    • mightymark

      Don’t know about Mr Rosen, but my answer would be that the UN has recognised the State of Israel whose birth was, like that of many other countries, a violent one. Having seen the appalling results – not least in the past few weeks – of fighting, much of it supposedly aimed “reoccupying the room” it set out as an objective (Resolution 242 I think) that there needed to be “a just solution to the [Palestinian] refugee problem” (I think that is a verbatim quote). The fact that it did not say in effect, that such a solution could be found only if the “re-occupied the room” suggests they felt that other ways might be found to get such a “just solution”.

      Now, it is of course possible that – gee’d up by Western supporters whose blood would obviously not be on the line – the Palestinians might continue to fight to “reoccupy the room”, however the Israelis would obviously fight back and the carnage, especially if the fight to be a general one on all fronts, would make the past few weeks look like a tea party.

      So, you can argue all you like about “reoccupying rooms” and what not so long as you realise, and take moral responsibility for, the misery you would in effect be willing on the area.

  • Guest

    I don’t know, but you guys are probably some of their biggest clickers. I’m sure they love the ad money.

  • tamimisledus

    Succinct and utterly to the point. I shan’t feel quite so isolated whenever the BBC bring one of their inexhaustible series of ignorant biased reporters. Thank you, Rod Liddle.

  • Neil Gardner

    I enjoyed your book on whining monkeys, but honestly I’d expect better analysis from you on this. Yes, I know the faux left obsesses with causes celebres like Palestine, but please Israel not only receives billions in aid from the US and Germany, its operatives work alongside MI6, CIA and others in destabilising the Middle East. I really recommend: Secret Affairs by Mark Curtis. The UK and Israel has actively promoted many Islamic fundamentalists, not least Muslim Brotherhood (behind ISIS in Iraq and Syria) and incidentally with strong links to Hamas. How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847 .

    • David

      All this proves is that secular restraint in the war with theocracy causes us more harm than good. The US was perfectly justified in selling weapons to Afghanistan to help them in their fight for self-determination. Afghanistan wasn’t an enemy and it was the moral decision to protect them. Everybody supported this at the time and then the US gets criticized by the ignorant leftist anti-war sentiment years later after 9/11. Your comment about US aid is a bit weak. Many countries receive aid from the US including Gaza and the West Bank. Pakistan receives a huge amount and was for a long time the biggest recipient. Does this mean Pakistan doesn’t deserve the right to defend itself? How often does Pakistan get criticized in the West by street protesters? How many people are protesting about the many human rights abuses administered by Pakistan in Kashmir, including abridgment of freedom of speech and women’s rights? What would the reaction be if Israel acted like this? We don’t know who tomorrow’s enemy will be but we must live and die by our superior values and survive our enemies.

  • greencoat

    The Left and Islam are united against Israel because they both desire the destruction of western civilisation and because they are both, at heart, cults of death.

  • Shoe On Head

    typical. left and right journos still banging on about coverage. i see rentagob liddle got his quota for the month.

  • mandelson

    If only Bomber Harris had sent thousands of warning flyers to Dresden.

  • Ray Veysey

    I haven’t read the other comments so excuse me if this has been said already. does it not occur to you that Hamas don’t care how many Israelis they kill? as long as they kill Palestinians. The major part of the whole worlds media is playing the game exactly as Hamas wants them to. They put uncountable numbers of their own people between them and the Israelis, and not just in Gaza, Hezbollah did exactly the same in Lebanon. Killing Israelis is not important, they know their rockets stand very little chance of actually hitting anything important, what’s important is the retaliation.

    • Richard

      A voice of reason! You have my sympathy for the likely response.

    • TimboX

      I thought something very similar at the beginning of this conflict. Hamas obviously knows it can never win, so why send rockets? And why back out of ceasefire deals?

      I think Hamas are clearly trying to get as many Palestinians killed as possible. Firstly to boost their numbers, and secondly to try and instigate a full blown civil war, that will drag in the surrounding Muslim countries, which would be the only way they could ever hope to achieve their ultimate goal, which is the destruction of the Jewish people. They certainly don’t want to live in peace and prosperity.

      Surely the leaders of Israel, the BBC, etc. have come to this same conclusion?

      • http://twitter.com/rayveysey Ray Veysey

        Is it right to assume that the media and the Israeli governments motives are different? I would have thought so. Israel is sending a clear message to everyone, not just Hamas but all the Islamic countries that have an interest in destroying it as a nation. The media being packed with bleeding heart left wing liberals have a different agenda, which stemming from anti-Semitism, are quite happy to play Hamas and by extension the Muslim Brotherhood’s game. The world is becoming foul with the stench of equally evil politicians and journalists who have lost touch with reality and only see their agendas as being important. What is sad is the way the people who end paying the bills for all this are fooled by it all.

  • David davis

    Who’s giving Hamas rockets then? Is it just the French, the Pakistanis (which is to say: the French, the Chinese or the Russians), or the Iranians (which is to say: the French, the Chinese or the Russians) or just the Russians?

    Rockets don’t manufacture themselves. They are complex devices. Someone is giving them to someone who’s giving them to “Hamas”, whatever that is.

    “Hamas” sounds like the name of some Middle-Eastern dish, that you might get forced upon you by a voluble and generous host…. Here! Eat! Willuk, ya-subbeh! Eat…you know, this is HAMAS…?!… HAMAS!… prepared from our family’s own land in the mountains – it is the Best Land! So Best Hamas!…EAT!” (And they pile ten tons of it onto your plate to display their generosity, and it’s disgusting.)

    (My mother was Lebanese, so I somewhat understand these concepts.)

    • Alexsandr

      not hamas and eggas?

      • David davis

        Hey that’s funny.

    • Simon Delancey

      Hamas manufactures its “Qassam” rockets itself – they are very, very basic unguided devices: the propellant is a mixture of sugar and potassium nitrate, the warhead’s explosive filling is usually ordinary TNT and fertilizer, and they’re launched from a crude tripod.

      • Ingenious Cognomen

        “David davis” [sic] probably doesn’t believe that those ignoranyt Ay-rabs could possibly build missiles by themselves.

  • Bel-Shammaroth

    Hamas is not necessarily trying to kill Israelis, although that would be a bonus for them. There main object is to secure as many Gazan deaths as possible, as they cement Hamas’s position of power and keep the money flowing in. The Aztec priests managed a similar racket with great success.

    • Richard

      Thanks for this. I totally agree. It makes me ask why the Israelis keep giving them what they want.

      • mightymark

        They don’t. They try to diminish the effectiveness of Hamas with the least possible loss of life – and on any reasonable view of the firepower:casualty ratio are very effective in doing so. Why would anyone suppose otherwise?

        • Richard

          Because Hamas remain in power and have fired 1200 missiles into Israel since 8 July. The blockade and targeted strikes simply aren’t working.

          • mightymark

            Without the blockade Hamas would obtain yet more missiles to fire at Israel. That is why it is there – what possible point would it have otherwise, and what reason do we have to believe Hamas would suddenly become reasonable and civilised people if it were lifted?

            • Richard

              Hamas are terrorists. They will never be reasonable or civilised. Terrorists are rarely defeated militarily. However they may be defeated by isolating them from the population who endure their presence. If the Palestinian people had a realistic hope for and an incentive to invest in their future they may cease to tolerate Hamas’ presence amongst them. Is it not worth a try?

              • mightymark

                What do you want? A two state solution is already possible if not under Likud then under a more accomodating Israeli government. That will not com to pass as long as Israelis feel threatened and believe giving up the West Bank will only make things worse rather than better. Gaza is hardly the best advertisement for such a course of action.

  • Gwangi

    Indeed. The anti-Israel bias on the BBC and Channel 4 is an utter joke now – they have clearly not learnt from the report which branded them biased against Israel some years ago.
    Hamas is a party of jew-hating Nazis which does its best to kill as many Jews as possible. OK, they are about as useless as the English football team at hitting the target. But that’s hardly Israel’s fault is it?
    The true colours of the hypocrite left were shown in that anti-war march in 2003 when all the metropolitian elite held banners stating ‘We’re all Hamas now’. All ‘Useful Idiots’ now, more like.
    Me, I don’t support Nazis. That is why I support the only democracy in the Middle East when it decides to defend itself against Islamonazis in the form of Hamas or various other Islamofascists.

  • wudyermucuss

    Will the BBC accept that Hamas wants to kill lots of Jews? –
    No.
    Group ideologues like the BBC are cognitive dissonants and cannot accept reality as it is too unpleasant.

    • JB_1966

      Yes maybe, or else they are simply hoping for the destruction of the West so they can rebuild a Communist future. I can’t see that working out for them somehow.

  • Diggery Whiggery


    Will the BBC accept that Hamas wants to kill lots of Jews?”

    I don’t think that’s the problem, just that Hamas is failing miserably to do so. It’s so hard to maintain a journalistic balance when the casualty figures are so one sided. They could point out that Israel defends its citizens while Hamas puts hers deliberately in harms way but that would be to take sides too you see.

    • Alexsandr

      whats so hard. Hamas are the aggressor, israel the defender.
      Hamas in its covenant states that it seeks to destroy Israel and the Jews and create an islamic state in Palestine
      Israel obviously does not want a state that is intolerant of its religion to replace Israel, israel being a country that has a 20% non jewish population.
      Probably not that keen on a violent, pedophiliic ( mufa’ khathat), genital mutilating, misogynistic creed ruling them either.

      • Damaris Tighe

        Common sense Alexsandra, a commodity that is in short supply in some quarters.

        • Alexsandr

          perhaps you can explain why the left support people like Hamas with values so at odds with their own. No-one has been able to answer that yet.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Maybe it’s simply because they’re, dare I say it, brown, & wear ethnic clothing.

          • tamimisledus

            Much of it (all?) is down to the fact that they believe in the childish cliche “my enemy’s enemy is my friend”. By their logic, Hamas and anyone with a similar aim will help them to destroy our society to be replaced by something to their own liking.
            Sorry, did I forget to say naive cliche. Well there it is, now I have said it!

  • Damaris Tighe

    Latest Mail Online: reports on ‘Jewish vigilantes’ in Paris but didn’t report on the violent synagogue siege that provoked it. Muslim attacks on Jews in Paris are a regular occurrence but Jews rarely poke their heads above the parapet. But when they do it’s that that merits a Mail article.

    • JB_1966

      Once a Black Shirt, always a Black Shirt.

  • Frank

    Rod, you should have seen Channel 4’s news for the same kind of biased output.

  • Blindsideflanker

    In the last couple of days more has been written about the Palestinian Israeli conflict than all that has been written about English devolution in the last 15 years. Which is a lesson , being civilised about an issue gets you no where, being murderously beastly gets you acres of coverage.

  • styants64

    Yes and Karl Marx was a Jew, isn’t it strange how the lefties like the ones at the BBC go around in circles and disappear up their own arses, I wish they would disappear completely.

  • The Masked Marvel

    When Rod Liddle starts making the exact same points the Biased-BBC blog have for years, you know we are very near the end of civilisation. Come to think of it, he’s been doing it rather a lot lately.

    • ramesesthegrumbler

      That is so very true. Civilisations often fall once the people see the truth behind their masters’ lies.

  • http://biasedbbc.proboards.com/index.cgi Teddy Bear

    Netanyahu put the difference between Israel and Hamas perfectly:

    This is the entire difference between us and Hamas – we are using
    defensive systems against missiles to protect the residents of Israel and they
    are using the residents of Gaza to protect arsenals of missiles. Nothing better
    underscores the difference in this campaign.

    The BBC relies on the ignorance it has aided in dumbing down the public for years not to understand this.

  • jack

    No Mr Liddle, because nobody at the BBC has ever bothered to challenge the notion that people unwilling to join the ‘ mafia’ were thought of as monkeys and pigs once upon a time.

  • Suzy61

    You really have to see the latest report from C4 tonight. I don’t normally watch it so I don’t know which clown is ‘reporting’ but the bias is beyond belief. This goon is a disgrace to his so called ‘profession’.

  • Richard

    “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”: Albert Einstein. Discuss.

  • artemis in france

    Rod, you’ve done it again and hit the nail right on the head. While Israel acts purely to défend the lives of its citizens, Hamas acts with utter cynicism towards its own and uses them as shields hoping to prevent attacks. Israel does what it has to, however reluctantly.

  • IainRMuir

    “the point was made, at the top of the report, that Hamas had killed nobody”

    So, using UK criminal law as an analogy, attempted murder should not be illegal, or at least not a serious crime?

    I understand that Hamas has been getting hold of better rockets from Syria and elsewhere. The balance of casualties could change.

    • Damaris Tighe

      Exactly. That’s why the argument by body count is absurd & intention is everything.

    • ramesesthegrumbler

      I wonder where Syria’s chemical weapons will end up? Distributed on the streets of Tel Aviv ?

      • Damaris Tighe

        Please God, no.

  • AJH1968

    In a couple of month’s time when Hamas has finished playing the victim and Israel is compelled to cease and desist, Hamas will claim a dubious and shameful victory while their population starves.

  • Terry Field

    The BBC is anti-semitic – its commentator there- a prior lightweight sports reporter type loads evey sentnece with pro Palestinian anti Israeli sentiment. They will sart to deny the holocast at this rate.
    Just nauseating crap.
    The degenerate Palestinian ‘leadership’ – from old Marrowfat onwards are the bloody basrads here – and 1967 was another attach on Israle by a bunch of gutless degenerates who lost when the officer class ran away- as they did from ISIS in 1rak recently.

  • john

    So how does the HAMAS killing vs Isreal killings look? About 10 to 1. Currently, 170 to 0.

    • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

      Did you even read the article?

      • john

        Yes

        • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

          You surprise me, since your point is precisely what the article is about.

    • anotherjoeblogs

      are you saying all those Jihadi Summer Camps for Gazan Kids have been a waste of money for *tax-payers over all these years ?

      * Euro tax-payers inc. British.

  • Augustus

    Exactly. Hamas is so incompetent one of their rockets actually downed a high-power line that supplied electricity to Gaza ‘plunging 70,000 Gazans into darkness’. And who do you think repaired the damage? That’s right, Israeli technicians wearing bulletproof vests and special helmets, braved the ongoing rocket fire and repaired the damage. You couldn’t make it up.

  • Liberty

    One reason is that Jerusalem is a very congenial place to be based. Good hotels, restaurants, safe, good networking opportunities, nice climate, English speaking, nice people, only 4 hours away. They can go to the American colonies hotel and meet the PLO fixers and politicos who will arrange a riot, crying Palestinian women, interveiw with a PLO official, etc at a moments notice. Try doing that in Damascus, Baghdad, Tehran or Riyadh. There are no journalists based in any Arab country; there are 100s of journalists based in Jerusalem.

    • Sarka

      That reminds me of what a journo said to me once when we were talking about the disproportionate amount of coverage of the Israel/Palestine conflict.
      “Well”, he said, “It’s because it’s what we call a four-star conflict”

      “”What does that mean?”
      “It means a conflict where you are never more than a short taxi-ride from at least a four-star hotel!”

    • NicoleS

      Jon Snow at a debate I once attended admitted as much, saying Israel was altogether a beguiling place. Clearly that doesn’t prevent him from lecturing Israeli spokesman Mark Regev in the most hectoring, patronising, smug we-British-know-best way imaginable, as he did on c4 news last night.

  • John Lea

    Aye, the BBC journalists love their Palistinians…almost as much as that annoying young lass, Malala Yousnafzai (major sic!). If, in the course of watching the news, I have to listen to that opinionated wee gobshite bang on and on about why women in Chad should be allowed to study Film and Media at the local polytechnic, I shall go mad! I’m just surprised Cameron hasn’t given a senior post in the reshuffle.

  • john

    Which kills more people – Wild threats from HAMAS or carefully targetted bombings for Israel? Pick one.

    • Damaris Tighe

      It’s not the body count stupid, it’s the intent.

      • Richard

        That must make the parents of the dead Palestinian children feel a whole lot better.

        • Alexsandr

          they should discuss it with hamas, who use them as human shields.

        • Damaris Tighe

          What do you suggest Israel does then, when under fire from hundreds of rockets that keep its population running in & out of shelters day & night? Nothing?

          • john

            Jewish State of European immigrants inserted in Muslim lands. What could possibly go wrong?

            • Damaris Tighe

              Over 50% of Jewish Israelis are descended from immigrants from Muslim lands. All their possessions were confiscated before they left. They were roughly the same number as the Palestinian refugees so there was a de facto population exchange.

              • john

                Stretching the logic!
                Israel/Zionism is a European invention. The key factor was immigration from Europe during the Mandate and after WW2. The Middle East Jews were presumably quite happy where they were for centuries.

                • Damaris Tighe

                  Well the middle eastern jews certainly didn’t leave their homes voluntarily: they were kicked out. Unlike the arab treatment of palestinian refugees, who were left to rot in camps as political pawns, the jewish refugees were given homes & jobs in Israel & they got on with their lives.

              • sarah_13

                John is cleary impervious to facts. He has already made up his mind and has invested everything in it.

                • Damaris Tighe

                  Yes, I’m not sure why I’m bothering.

            • gelert

              Are you agitating for the removal of all the Europeans who settled in the Americas without the permission of the indigenous peoples ?

              • john

                I’m not agitating for the removal of Europeans from Israel but Palestinians must be able to return to lands they lived in for centuries. The concept of a Jewish State is the problem.
                Re Americas – I would if the circumstances were remotely comparable.

                • Damaris Tighe

                  Why is the concept of a Jewish state the problem? Is it because like the Europeans you are a post-nationalist who doesn’t believe in the nation state?

                • gelert

                  So you’re against a Jewish state, but not an Arab one ?

                  You should read American Holocaust to see how Europeans of all nations committed genocide to conquer, and almost eliminate, the native population of the Americas. The circumstances certainly aren’t remotely comparable with the ME situation.

                • Sarka

                  About half the Israeli Jewish population consists of Jews from the MENA region…Mishrahim…they (or their gparents and gradparents) were mostly kicked out of Arab countries, who ethnically cleansed themselves of Jews after the foundation of Israel (sometimes starting the process “prematurely”…

          • gelert

            He probably believes that Jews should meekly accept their fate. That’s been the European attitude for centuries.

          • Richard

            My point is that the bombing of Palestinian civilians clearly doesn’t work. As you keep telling us, the rockets keep on coming. I would suggest cease the retaliation, open the borders for trade, and offer support to the Palestinian people. That way the people will have an investment for a future in Gaza. That way there will be no reason to tolerate the Hamas terrorists in their midst.

            • Damaris Tighe

              (1) When Israel left Gaza an American Jewish businessman got together a consortium to invest in Gaza. Then Hamas took over & of course it fell through.

              (2) Israel controls the borders to prevent imports of parts that could be used to make effective weapons. It’s only because of the embago that Hamas’s rockets are ineffective.

              (3) Israel supplies all utilities to Gaza for free. Even as the rockets were flying these last few days convoys of supplies are being driven by ISRAELI drivers into Gaza. These include such ‘essentials’ as Coca Cola.

              • Richard

                I can only quote David Cameron, the UK Prime Minister, who during Prime Minister’s Questions, stated that “Friends of Israel – and I count myself a friend of Israel – should be saying to the Israelis that the blockade actually strengthens Hamas’s grip on the economy and on Gaza, and it’s in their own interests to lift it and allow these vital supplies to get through. … We should do everything we can through the UN, where resolution 1860 is absolutely clear about the need to end the blockade and to open up Gaza.” May I again refer you to Einstein’s definition of insanity.

                • Damaris Tighe

                  I don’t take Cameron as an authority on anything.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Do you think your parents or grandparents during the blitz gave two hoots about the German casualities of reprisal bombings? They just wanted the Luftwaffe off their backs.

      • john

        Exactly my point. Intent doesn’t kill anyone – bombs do.

        • sarah_13

          Intent is every thing, its what the criminal law is all about.

          • john

            Oh Sarah: How wrong can you be? Criminal law is about factual evidence NOT state of mind.

            • Damaris Tighe

              In that case the factual evidence is hundreds of blunt instruments winging their way towards civilian areas in Israel.

            • sarah_13

              Really? Interesting. No mens rea .

            • Doug

              john, I gather you are not a lawyer. Most crimes require intent. Proving intent is a big part of what prosecutors do. In the instant case, if the conflict between Israel and Hamas were subject to the domestic criminal law (which it is not), we would say (1) Hamas is guilty of attempted murder and (2) Israel is innocent of any crime by reason of self defense. I hope this clarifies things for you.

              • Damaris Tighe

                Case closed.

              • john

                Intent is supplementary to evidence. If evidence convicts you, there is no need of any guess at intent. A drunk driver has no intent to run down a pedestrian but is still guilty of a major crime.

                • Doug

                  As I said, you’re not a lawyer and your understanding of criminal law and evidence is too deficient to be corrected on a short posting.

                • john

                  Weak response. Answer my drunk driver example.

                • sarah_13

                  Sir, broadly speaking in order to be guilty of a serious criminal offence one must have committed the criminal act and have the requisite mental element or guilty mind, i.e. the culpability for the crime i.e. intended to commit the particular act. So for murder you would have to directly intend it or it be a virtually certain result of your actions. Intent can be found of inferred from the evidence but without the intent there is no guilt. In your drunk driver example it maybe manslaughter is made out, the mental element required broadly speaking is recklessness i.e. you consciously take an unjustified risk, but culpability for the crime requires that the necessary mental element is there. However even on the facts you give it may not be that the mental element is there as there could be a defence of say involuntary intoxication etc. So in sum, its not supplementary, without the mental element responsibility for the crime is not there.

                • BC

                  You are clearly not a lawyer. Which doesn’t make you a bad person. However, you are clearly deluded. Wrongfulness is an essential part of any crime and intent is the usual form

        • Jethro Asquith

          John, with all due respect (ie not very much) you really are a pillock

          • john

            That’s your best response?

            • sarah_13

              Perhaps you can answer mine?

    • Alexsandr

      hamas fire rockets indiscriminately into israel with the express intent of killing jews. Israel tries to stop this with targetted raids.
      but of course its convenient to forget Hamas is the agressor.
      what to know why? read your koran.

      • john

        Peace loving Israel kills 170
        Vicious, brutal, Jew hating HAMAS kills nobody. Discuss!

        • sarah_13

          Quite. How to start with a conclusion and proceed to the evidence. Discuss.

        • ACN

          If someone walked down the High street randomly firing a revolver at passers by but,due to incompetence and lack of skill was unable to hit anyone. He was then felled with blow by one of the intended victims, the effect from which he later expired. Who was the greater criminal? Discuss

          • Damaris Tighe

            This is obvious to everyone except lefties, whose morality is so twisted they can’t see it.

            • mightymark

              Let us get one thing quite clear – idiot anti Zionism is not the sole preserve of “lefties”. Have you read the extraordinarily biased Daily Mail recently? – hardly a “leftie” rag. Hague was certainly not Israel’s best friend in the world, nor was Hurd, nor Carrington. By contrast Blair was a good friend of Israel as are a few at least on the left – in and outside Parliament. I class myself as one of them.

              • Damaris Tighe

                Yes you are right. I posted elsewhere in this thread about yesterday’s Mail Online which juxtaposed photos of ‘laughing’ Israelis running to shelters with miserable looking Gazans. ‘Lefty’ is shorthand for the modern post-everything left which has totally lost its moral bearings.

                • mightymark

                  Think you should find a better shorthand!

                • Damaris Tighe

                  What do you suggest?

        • hacimo

          Its hard to beat the Jews at this sort of game. Foolish to even try.

          • john

            That’s a diametric change from the usual Jewish trope.

        • Mr Moo

          The fact that Israeli deaths are minimal is not through a lack of trying. Moron

          • john

            You don’t understand the difference between facts (numbers) and opinion (your comment).

            • Mr Moo

              So by your twisted logic attempted murder is not a crime.
              Your still a moron.

              • john

                CORRECTION
                Peace loving Israel kills 1000+ civilians
                Vicious, brutal, Jew hating HAMAS kills 3 civilians Discuss!

                • Mr Moo

                  Why do you bang on about numbers. Hamas would love to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, it is just that they are not very good at it. If you want to broaden the “discussion”, I am still haunted by the smiling cheering Palestinian parents, handing out sweets to their children after the glorious attack on the twin towers.

                • john

                  Yeah – sorry for focusing on trivia.
                  The Palestinians factoid isn’t worth the mention. Again, my view is different – overtime HAMAS and othe resistence groups are bound to get better at hitting Israel. Isreal is making a dreadful mistake by constantly beating up on Palestinians and never being interested in any agreement (hint they really want the land).

                • Mr Moo

                  Well I guess we will all just have to wait for that wonderful day when they can really get to Israel. As with all Islamic death cults it will not stop there.

        • ramesesthegrumbler

          Hamas has killed more of its own people than the Israelis by a factor of 10. Discuss!

    • Terry Field

      Hopefully the Israelis or we are in real trouble if the 700 rockets cannot be effectively countered.

      • mightymark

        “We” are probably going at some point to be very grateful to Israel for acting as the test bed of what seems to be a rather effective anti rocket system.

        • Terry Field

          Iron DOme could by produced at a discount by LIDL and sold to the GOV under a fancy new name – Tin Lid or Pewter Hamas Party Pooper.

    • Mike

      I’d add how many Muslims have died in Iraq, Syria & Libya at the hands of other Muslims, surely this puts into perspective who the real killers are !

      • john

        One or two Muslims died in Iraq and Afghanistan courtesy of the US and UK,

        • Mike

          You seem to be making a very big jump from my position on the Israeli and Palestine altercation and Blairs illegal involvement in Iraq and foolish involvement in Afghanistan.

          Both actions/wars were wrong and we should never have got involved but with a lying sack of s*** like Bliar, it was bound to happen especially to give him material for his self fund raising on the lecture circuits.

          That said, even more Muslims have died from their own internicene civil wars over the past 50 years than those killed during our actions in Iraq & Afghanistan. It is in the nature of things that Islam has to get through its own bloodletting phase just as christianity did 500 years ago.

          Its hardly coincidental that Islam surfaced around 500 years after Christianity did and 500 years ago Christians were killing each other. Lets give Islam another 200-400 years before they kill enough of their own followers and then they might see the senseless killing just as Christianity did after its bloodletting phase.

          • john

            The participants in both World Wars were predominantly Christians. Total dead 20-30 million.

      • hacimo

        But none of the millions of muslims killed in Iraq Syria and Libya, were killed by Jews. In point of fact, during the last year, the vast majority of middle-east Muslims, were murdered by fellow Muslims. Even if we add up all the Muslims killed by Israelis since 1948, the number would still be less then the number killed in the recent Syrian civil disturbances. Of course, this will be rectified if the Jews decide to go nuclear.

        • Mike

          Thats the point I’ve been making as the bleeding heart wet liberals have their eyes wide shut over theinconvenient fact thousands of Muslims have been slaughtered by other Muslims but they are more concerned about a few deaths caused by Hamas trying to start a war in the region.

          As for the nuclear option, I grew up during the cold war and was well aware we had MAD (mutually assured destruction) should Russion fire nuclear missiles at us. For Israel its a far worse situation than the west had against soviet Russia as many Islamic state have publicly stated they want to destroy the state of Israel. If Israel was trapped in a situation where they would all be slaughtered unless they used the nuclear option, I would certainly be behind them despite the massive loss of life.

        • mightymark

          It will beinersting when the archives are finally opened to discover the ratio of Palestinians killed by Israelis and those killed by other Palestinains.

    • sarah_13

      The reason the “wild threats” and the thousands of Hamas rockets have not killed more people is only because of the Billions the israelis have invested in defence, the millions from their economy they have used to build bomb shelters. It is not for the lack of trying on behalf of hamas that israelis are alive, it is purely because Israel has sacrificed so much. Hamas will if they can buy more bombs instead of building defence. You must ask why on earth would an organisation like Hamas every build defence, because they would then have to consider how to govern, something they have no intention of ever doing because then you have to be held accountable by your own people.

    • hacimo

      It helps to aim at your targets if you want to kill them.

    • mightymark

      Perhaps it would make it fairer for you if Israel sent untargeted rockets into Gaza?

      • john

        With 4 kids killed on a beach, seems as though they do!

        • mightymark

          This is what the Guardian (hardly the world’s most ultra Zionist paper) says:

          “A witness who identified himself only as Abu Ahmed said the boys had been scavenging for scrap metal when the first shell hit a nearby shipping container used in the past by Hamas security forces”

          so – it seems as though they don’t.

  • The_greyhound

    The insane Owen Jones was complaining in the Grauniad (I never line the cat’s litter tray with anything else) the other day that the BBC was biased IN FAVOUR of Israel. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/09/israel-renewed-hamas-attack-bbc-balance-palestinian

    Fruitcakes of the world unite.

    • Damaris Tighe

      I suppose for some people anything less than ‘wipe Israel off the map right now’ does count as bias in favour of Israel.

      • beenzrgud

        That idea has only appeared in a comment by you on this thread. Trying to put words into others peoples mouths is a terrible way to go about discussing this issue.

        • Damaris Tighe

          I was extremely steamed up at the time by some particularly daft posts further down, but point taken.

    • tamimisledus

      Good points.
      http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/09/israel-renewed-hamas-attack-bbc-balance-palestinian
      Typical example of mushlim* [sic] logic in action.
      *mushlim logic – a “logic” devised by muslims in order to fool their gullible followers into believing that their beliefs had a rational basis. Similarly used by non-muslims without a genuine case for their beliefs, with the purpose of attempting to fool the world at large.

    • Lydia Robinson

      Be fair! Owen Jones is only 13 and a half!

  • obiwan

    I guess I’m not alone in wondering how on earth Jeremy Bowen gets away with his blatantly partisan reporting. It’s got to the point now that I can barely watch his reports without getting angry. Is this what the BBC mean by ‘world-class journalism’..?

    • Alexsandr

      your telly does have an off switch. Use it.

      • Jen The Blue

        Yes, but we have been forced to pay for his biased drivel.

        • Alexsandr

          send your telly to the tip and watch what you want to see on catchup. you dont need a licence then

      • sarah_13

        Of course we can do that but it leaves an uncomfortable feeling of complicity in the a) misinformation of millions of people and b) the possible consequences of this misinformation being broadly disseminate and uncontested for those people like the completely innocent jewish people stuck in their synagogue whilst so called palestinian supporters shouted “kill the jews” and “slaughter the jews” whilst throwing stones and other objects. I have never seen a pogrom but by all accounts that is as close to one as I’ve ever heard of in europe in recent times. That is the problem. The certain element of the audience is being fed misinformed and one dimensional news which reinforces their prejudices and legitimises their anger. That is something the BBC should consider and why I always thought they were committed to disseminating the facts.

    • Terry Field

      The Beeb os a racist leftie towelhead (ie Quataris ‘please send us more nice gas’) loving entity that was a long time ago a great institution and is now a national propaganda unit – Labour Party supporting. Like the bloody civil service, dreadful teaching unionised ‘lobby’ of ‘edyoucaytors’ each with an NVQ and a years PGCE (HAHAHA).
      REALLY skilled!

    • gelert

      Because the BBC gave up straight reporting years ago. Bowen is another one of those people who benefit from nepotism at the Beeb, like the Dimblebeys. His father was an editor at BBC Wales.

  • Socialismo

    I hate Hamas for what they want to do, and I hate Israel for what they are doing.

    • Alexsandr

      cos hamas is the agressor and israel the defender..

      • Socialismo

        Evidently not — when you kill more than 100 innocent people you are an aggressor — even if they do happen to live near some people who want to kill you.

        • Alexsandr

          sorry, the gaza people voted for hamas. so they are all responsible for hamas’ actions.

          are you going to say in a war situation civilians never get killed. How many germans who didnt support hitler in ww2 were killed? does that make us the aggressor.
          how naive.

          • Socialismo

            At least in WW2 it was a fair fight. Would it be fair if, to protect Gaza, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon all teamed up against Israel? Or would it be vile and unconscionable?

            • Alexsandr

              was WW2 a fair fight? When the UK was the only one fighting against a 100% occupied Europe and a far better armed Germany. We got through the battle of Britain by the skin of our teeth and a lot of good luck, If Hitler had not invaded Russia I think the outcome would have beeen very different
              and in the 20th century both Syria and Egypt were very aggressive towards Israel precipitating several wars.
              methinks you need to gen up on 20th century history.

              • Socialismo

                It was a fair fight because at least we could fight and appeal to others to fight — but let me be clear I don’t want another World War.

                I think this is a particularly unfair situation, because Israel has control over Palestine; can prevent them defending themselves or even unilaterally confiscate territory.

            • Damaris Tighe

              So right is always with the least effective army? As Germany lost WW2 I guess you’re on the side of the Nazis. Wow, this takes victimology to a whole new level.

            • ramesesthegrumbler

              Erm? In 1967 and 1973 those countries, along with Egypt, did just that. And lost. Badly. Hence the use of terrorism ever since.

          • beenzrgud

            Whilst I agree that “collateral damage” is difficult to avoid, it is much easier than it was. It should also be noted that applying a collective punishment to a civilian population is a war crime.

            • Alexsandr

              its not a punishment. its a seek and destroy weapons mission. Hamas just use their civies as human shields for maximum PR effect.

              • Socialismo

                Look at the size of Gaza — even if Hamas didn’t want to use civilians as shields, where would they go?

                If there were a gang in Tel Aviv who’d been responsible for three murders, would you bomb their houses, too?

                • Alexsandr

                  if they had rocket launchers in them, yes.

              • beenzrgud

                In such a densely populated area I suppose it would de difficult not to be near civilians when fighting a war. Perhaps you think a better strategy for the Palestinian fighters would be to stand out in the open where the Israeli army can get a clear shot.
                Having looked into this issue I can tell you that there are some disturbing instances that are very difficult to explain when it comes to Israeli targeting . Either you can accept my word or look into it for yourself.

                • newname

                  No I think it would be a better strategy for them to accept that Israel exists, make peace and abandon dreams of military conquest.
                  No doubt you have “looked into this issue” – there must be thousands of websites on this topic, how do you decide which ones to believe?

                • beenzrgud

                  I try to read the views of people who have seen life from both sides of the borders, who can give a critical account of the situation as they see it. There are surprisingly few people who both write and fit this criteria. Clearly personal opinion is difficult to remove from any material so some judgement on my part is required.

                  If you can suggest a better way of forming my opinion then please tell, but you should assume that is it not possible for me to personally experience both life in Israel and Gaza.

                • newname

                  I base my views on what each side appears to want for the ultimate outcome. Having lived in Israel for a long time I truly believe that what most Israelis really want (of course there are some extremists) is an independent secure state and would be happy to let the Palestinians have the same, but are forced to believe that what the Palestinians really want is to destroy the Jewish state and kill them in the process, so they have no choice but to resist. Israeli public opinion used to be quite dovish but events have pushed it to the right. I would be interested in any information you have that contradicts this.
                  We are always told that the Palestinians “have no choice”. In my experience, Israelis believe that as well.

                • beenzrgud

                  Read my original comment on this thread. That should give you a start. I find that giving people a nudge in the right direction is more effective in the long term than leading them by the nose, so you should make some effort to find this info yourself. I’m sure then you’ll be more inclined to believe it.
                  As for your statement about what people want. As far as I can see the only side getting what they want is Israel. As I’ve already stated it doesn’t take much effort to find an Israeli who thinks Israel should stretch from the rive Jordan all the way to the sea, and that pretty much describes the size of Israel today. I would doubt the sanity of anyone who stated that the current situation is actually what the Palestinians desire.
                  I don’t think it really matters that Israelis think Palestinians want to wipe Israel off the map, well maybe only to the Palestinians . The idea is plainly nonsense and never remotely likely to happen. They have neither the capability or the international consensus that would be required. Do you really believe that the world would allow Israel to be wiped off the map? Besides, I simply don’t think it is true. On the other hand if the Palestinians expressed the same belief, ie. that Israel wishes them removed from the map, then based on the evidence it would be a brave man who argued it wasn’t true. An honest appraisal of the current situation would conclude that the only reason it has been allowed to go so far is that Israel has had the support of the US at the UN. You must be aware of the large number of UN resolutions that have been vetoed by the US.

                • Damaris Tighe

                  This is absolutely true. After the Oslo debacle & the mass suicide bombings in disco, pizzarias & buses the doves lost a lot of influence.

                • sarah_13

                  I personally prefer the word of a decorated British Colonel one who has been responsible in recent times for keeping us safe from terrorists, amongst many other things “The IDF did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare.”, referring to operation cast lead.

                • beenzrgud

                  I prefer to believe the Goldstone report in regard to Cast lead, but it doesn’t really matter anyway, much of the abuse of Palestinians has become routine for the IDF so it happens all the time. Maybe Richard Kemp should spend a few years embedded with the IDF before painting them whiter than white. He’d have to be undercover of course, we wouldn’t want him to get the wrong impression, eh!

                • Damaris Tighe

                  The Goldstone Report was in fact discredited. Google it.

                • sarah_13

                  Goldstone has resiled from the report and said and has retracted the accusations against israel of war crimes but reiterated those against Hamas “We know a lot more today about what happened in the Gaza war,” “If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document.” It helps to find out the actual position. Goldstone was railroaded without proper enquiry precisely because of those who presuppose the outcome and start at the conclusion that Israel is bad and proceed to the evidence instead of the other way around.

                • beenzrgud

                  Anyone can go an Wiki and find out info,, so why don’t you also include that his 3 co-authors criticised his recantation and still backed the validity of the Report. Better still why don’t you go and read the report, you can buy an abridged version for a modest sum.
                  The reality is that the report levels a good deal of criticism at Hamas as well as Israeli actions, but you don’t want to know about that which is sad really. There are a lot of Israelis and Palestinians who are trying their best to sort this mess out, and they are not helped by the huge numbers of people like yourself who come on forums like this for the sole purpose of quashing any criticism of Israel. Nowadays I rarely debate this crisis because I know I’ll be wasting my time. Not one person like yourself has ever read one piece of information that I have presented. I have little doubt that the hole Israel is slowly digging itself into is getting deeper by the year, and eventually there may simply be no easy way out, not that there is now.
                  I’m done here, you can continue with your grade school point scoring exercised if you wish, but I would suggest your time would be better spent reading what Israelis who have seen the situation first hand have to say.

                • NicoleS

                  “Perhaps you think a better strategy for the Palestinian fighters would be to stand out in the open where the Israeli army can get a clear shot.” I couldn’t believe it when Jeremy Bowen made that same observation the other night. The normal rule is for soldiers to protect their own civilians, not the other way round, see? And Gaza is not so densely populated that space for firing rockets cannot be found away from residential areas.

              • ramesesthegrumbler

                … and then fakes film footage which is lapped up by Al Bowen and the BBC and believed by the credulous fools who oppose Israel.

                • Damaris Tighe

                  Gaza is a giant cut-&-paste film lot.

            • newname

              “it is much easier than it was” – and that is why the collateral damage in relation to the number of attacks is in fact so low. (Not sure if it’s “much” easier to avoid collateral damage, tho.) “Collective punishment” is just one of the slogans the PR people have decided to apply to this situation. I think it was originally applied to Nazis who would take revenge for any deaths on their side by lining up whole villages and deliberately slaughtering everyone in them.

              • Alexsandr

                if Israel wanted to punish Gaza, they could flatten the place in 10 minutes flat. or nuke it.

                • beenzrgud

                  Do you really expect to be taken seriously with comments like that. I’m sorry I wasted my time replying to your comments !
                  Besides, I doubt even most of the Israeli far right would consider it wise to create nuclear devastation right on their doorstep.

                • Alexsandr

                  just saying the israelis have been restrained. not warmongering.

                • sarah_13

                  You have eloquently made the point most here would agree with. Now consider whether the same can be said for Hamas, or Hezbollah in the north who have a nuclear cloud on their flat. That is the reality.

                • beenzrgud

                  I’m sorry I don’t understand your statement. If you’re saying you think that these groups would use nuclear weapons then maybe you’re right. Extremists usually use extreme methods. The best way to stop it would be to change their nature or make them irrelevant by sorting out this mess. I doubt the Palestinians are willing to settle for the current arrangement so maybe it’s time for Israel to change the status quo, they are holding most of the cards after all.
                  It’s also worth noting that this problem isn’t going away any time soon. There’s been too much blood spilt and there will be lasting bitterness for decades to come. Israel will certainly need to be “bigger” than it’s been so far. If there is a stable Palestinian state in the future then Israel won’t be able to go on bombing raids just because an extremist sets off a bomb. Investigate and prosecute, yes, bombing, no.

              • beenzrgud

                So in your opinion there are no instances where a bomb was dropped, shot fired, etc. that were not necessary to Israeli operations? In other words every single death can be attributed to a justifiable military operation, yes? Maybe you read different sources of info to me, but I should tell you that I do take some effort to ensure mine are as unbiased as I can find.

                • newname

                  Probably mistakes are made. What do the unbiased sources you read attribute them to?

                • beenzrgud

                  It’s difficult to make a firm judgement since most if not all the evidence in such cases is held by the Israeli government, but it doesn’t take a genius to make a connection between the obvious animosity of many Israelis towards Palestinians and the fact that people appear to be being killed unnecessarily. Israelis certainly wouldn’t be the first to do it, and I’m sure they won’t be the last.

                • gelert

                  Probably the Gaza edition of the Grauniad 😉

          • newname

            Sorry, you beat me to it.

        • Damaris Tighe

          That means all successful defence is by definition aggressive, & the victims of aggression should therefore roll over. You want to take the unpleasantness out of war, but war is war, get over it & grow up.

        • newname

          This remark is incredible. So was Britain the aggressor in WWII? Far, far more than 100 innocents were killed in that conflict, as in most conflicts in world history, irrespective of who was the aggressor.

          • Damaris Tighe

            It’s a truly jaw-dropping remark but typically liberal-leftist. Do not win wars or even school prizes – the moral high ground is always with the loser.

  • beenzrgud

    With the recent events there have been lots of opinion pieces that are long on opinion, but short on detail.

    Let’s be clear, the conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis is about as asymmetrical as it is possible to get. Whilst a forum such as this is clearly inadequate to fully analyse the situation there are some truths that are difficult to dismiss. Whilst Israel says it only wants peace it is also clearly benefitting from the continuing conflict. Most people have seen the map showing the growing size of Israel at the expense of the Palestinians. This has to be taken in the context that many Israelis also think they have a god given right to all the land between the river Jordan and the sea, anyone who doubts this only needs to read the comments in the Jerusalem Post . These two facts are remarkably congruent. There are no shortage of stories like this one, which also bring into question Israel’s mindset regarding peace.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/17/opinion/israels-shortsighted-assassination.html

    There are also, from an Israeli viewpoint, the rather inconvenient fact that the land they wish to claim is occupied by millions of Palestinians. Most of us are intelligent enough to see the problem that Israel wishing to have the land and also claim to be a Jewish state are incompatible, since having the land would also mean having the Palestinians which would make Jews a minority in their Jewish state.
    For anyone wishing to gain an understanding of this conflict I would recommend reading the views of people who have seen both sides of this conflict in order to get a balanced view. A good starting point is Gideon Levy,

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/is-gideon-levy-the-most-hated-man-in-israel-or-just-the-most-heroic-2087909.html

    I have little doubt that people on both sides are suffering the effects of this conflict, but I’m getting sick of being expected to swallow a narrative that flies in the face of observable fact. Once one accepts that the aim of Israel is to gain control of its “god given land” then the facts start to make sense. I think Israel is actually hoping that we’re all either not intelligent enough to add 2 and 2, or that we are simply not interested enough to care. The growing gulf between Israel and the rest of the world suggests that neither are true.

    • Alexsandr

      whats all this jewish land and arab land stuff? thats just pandering to the intolerant attitudes in the area.
      states should be secular and not be islamic, jewish or whatever. They should look after all people in that area irrespective of any beliefs.
      If people did their god bothering in private then the world would be a safer place.
      I’m not holding my breath tho.

      • beenzrgud

        I agree that secular is definitely the way to go. Unfortunately I don’t get to choose, Israel does.

      • Damaris Tighe

        ‘Jewish’ as in Jewish State is supposed to mean peoplehood rather than religion.

        • Alexsandr

          Israeli then. jot jewish
          over 20% of Israelis are not jews.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Druse Arabs serve enthusiastically in the Israeli army, & some Christian Arabs are campaigning to be drafted.

      • Socialismo

        Start with the law of return and follow the thread.

    • newname

      “Once one accepts that the aim of Israel is to gain control of its “god given land” then the facts start to make sense.” Actually, I think the facts make better sense if one accepts that Israeli Jews see themselves as a people (with a religious tradition), and a people who have been persecuted in pretty much most of the world and must fight to assert their independence and provide a place of refuge for other Jews who may encounter persecution. Another fact is that when Jews began moving to the area in large numbers (over 100 years ago), there were Jews there already, and the numbers of Arabs (who did not call themselves Palestinians) were much smaller than now, so the Jews probably felt there was room for everyone. They did not seek to displace the Arabs, but to settle uninhabited areas (mostly malarial swamps and desert).
      It all went wrong for various reasons, not least resurgent Arab nationalism bolstered by conflicting British promises. Now add Islamism to the mix…

      • beenzrgud

        And yet the solution is always to further expand settlements in the West Bank…….

        • Alexsandr

          what has the west bank got to do with gaza. its miles away and has a different government.
          and who says it belongs to any ethnoc group anyway. as I said in a secular society they would just get on and have good lives. bickering about imaginary friends just causes trouble.

          • beenzrgud

            My reply was in relation to the situation as a whole, but I have often thought that the two areas should be treated differently, and to some extent they are.
            I also agree that a good solution to this problem is a single state with preferably a secular government. I don’t think either party wants that though.

            • Damaris Tighe

              Can you imagine the fate of Jews, Arab Christians, Druse & Bahais in a state with a majority Muslim population?

              • beenzrgud

                Maybe Israel should sort out somewhere for the Palestinians to live ( a viable state) then they wouldn’t have to confront this possibility. Expanding settlements in the West Bank certainly isn’t going to make the problem go away, worse maybe, but go away never.

                • Damaris Tighe

                  At last we agree!

        • NicoleS

          More housing is built within settlements but the area they occupy is not expanding.

      • QED

        The British Mandate territory called Palestine was placed under British control by the League of Nations after WWI. This territory, which stretched from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean sea, was not previously called Palestine, it was part of the defunct Ottoman Empire. The land now disputed, then largely uninhabited, was purchased legally, from local Arab chieftains, by Jewish immigrants. The Jewish immigrants developed the land, and the resulting propsperity attracted Arab immigrants from the surrounding Arab territories. This process was encouraged by Arab governments who refused to accept the decision of the 1920 San Remo conference which established a Jewish national home in Palestine. The descendants of the Arab immigrants now want the whole cake, despite the fact that they are not “Palestinians” in any sense.

        This exactly parallels what happened throughout Africa to British settlers who purchased land legally, and developed it at personal expense, under British law during the colonial period. They were subsequently portrayed as having stolen African land, much of which was previously unoccupied bush. The tendency of modern Western governments to favour the underdog in all situations, irrespective of any merit of legality, has led to the current mess in Africa and the reversion of much fertile productive land to newly unoccupied bush. This same tendency will lead to devastation in Palestine unless the Israelis stand firmly for their rights. There is every indication that they will do so.

        • Mike

          Spot on. The problem is the left don’t do history they only do twisted ideology as a boost to their pathetic lack of self esteem.

  • Mike

    Quite why the BBC and other left wing propogandists are so concerened with this altercation where a few on the Palestine side have died purely because of Hamas is beyond me. If they had any impartiality at all they’d be running large news reports on the tens of thousands of Muslims being killed by other Muslims in the middle east. The scale of deaths between this minor action which could stop in an instant if Hamas wished it, pales into insignificance with the genocide going on in Syria, Iraq & Libya.

    Even in Egypt and other Muslim states where there’s a very unsteady peace and christians are being slaughtered on the quiet, more die daily there than Palestinians in Gaza.

    Obviously the left have no perspective whatsoever on where the greater crimes against humanity are being carried out and the BBC specifically should be seperated from tax payer funding as it cannot be impartial.

    • MikeF

      As Josef Stalin said: “One death is a tragedy, a million deaths are just a statistic.”

      • Objective Saxon

        Unless they’re Jewish millions of course.

      • Mike

        A very poignant point that I’m sure the pea brained left use all the time to justify their position. They’re unable to assimilate genocide on a massive scale whether jews in the holocaust or Muslims in Syria, Iraq or Libya.as the political implications destroy their raison-d’etre !

      • Terry Field

        Lies damned lies and dead millions

    • Tom M

      Quite so Mike. What always surprises me is that this altercation is truly racially motivated but is never described in the media as such. When someone refers to a person in Birmingham of Asian descent by the foreshortened name of his country of origin there are screams of racism from the liberal left and threats demanding the imprisonment of the perpetrator.
      Suggest that you wish to eradicate a whole country because of your stated hatred of the people who populate it, not a murmer.

      • Mike

        The left have a completely different dictionary to the rest of us and racist terminology like Honky, Snowflake or Whitey is absent from their ethnic descriptions.

    • Dr. Heath

      Your points are only too rarely voiced on the internet. When the apparent indifference of the West’s progressives and its media to the vast suffering inflicted on Muslims, or anyone with the bad luck to be in their way, by other Muslims throughout the world is condemned on-line for the hypocrisy it is, a tiny handful of votes of approval is doled out. One has to conclude that the slaughter we’ve witnessed during the civil war convulsing the Muslim world does not interest many people outside of the region. Possibly, this is because we in the West are afraid of Muslims blowing us up for daring to criticise their lamentable unwillingness to jaw-jaw rather than war-war. Or is it because we, as covert racists, expect almost nothing in terms of civilised behaviour from the numerous groups of eliminationists in the Middle East that we pretend not to notice? Who can say?

      Calls for Israel to negotiate with Hamas [how does anyone not suffering from a debilitating form of delusional mental illness propose this is done?] or for Israel to ‘get out’ of Palestine [and go where, precisely?] are the stock-in-trade of the megaphone-wielders when they’re at home and posting their rants on the internet and not on our streets denouncing zionist murderers and their American controllers. When the current conflict winds down, what can we expect from them when all the Jeremy Bowens in the world have only the Syrian and the ISIS-inspired holocausts to report? Almost nothing, I predict.

      • Mike

        I tend to agree as the lefts mock outrage against Israel trying to protect itself easily trumps (in their eyes) the many thousands of Muslims & Christians being slaughters by ISIS and others.

  • newname

    I am also surprised by the unwavering and endless on-line passions aroused by this conflict. I am in Israel so I obviously have an interest. I never comment on articles about, say, Somalia, because I know nothing about that situation except what I read in the papers. The same is true for many who comment on I/P but that does not seem to stop them. I have concluded that, whatever they call themselves, most commenters must be either Jews or Muslims and have their own axe to grind. It is instructive how the same obviously false comments come up over and over, apparently impervious to any factual argument.
    One thing I noticed in Cast Lead and it’s the same this time around: Israelis are sometimes portrayed as “indiscriminately bombarding heavily populated areas” and I sense that the people writing this are disappointed that the body count isn’t higher.

    • Damaris Tighe

      It’s also true that when absurd analogies are made between Israel & the Nazis, the Wehrmacht & apartheid (all of which I’ve seen in the last few days) it makes it impossible to have a nuanced discussion about the conflict. One spends all one’s energies challenging this mindless hyperbole.

      • newname

        I wonder if the people who make these analogies know (or care) how Israelis respond to them. They bolster those who claim that the world is full of anti-Semites, but I also ask myself if Israelis might eventually get tired of being accused of every evil under the sun and say, well we’re being accused of genocide anyway, so why not just go in and kill as many Palestinians as possible. Is that what Israel’s accusers really want?

        • sarah_13

          I think that is what some want, it means they can continue their vile hate.

          I think there are two types of supporters of the palestinian cause, the first are muslims or others with an interest in always defending the palestinians or arabs and unless they are either “ex-muslims” or have come from persecution they are unlikely to easily see israel’s position. The second kind are the most dangerous they are the sentimental narcissists, the types who ostentatiously parade the palestinian cause. They are the students, political useful idiots and celebrities.

          I’m not sure you can worry too much about either. I hope you continue to ignore the commentators. Most decent people who have ever actually considered the facts know that if we in the UK had even a fraction of the rockets dropped on us that israelis have the army would flatten whoever it was.

          • gelert

            The second group you name can also be found in the ranks of the violent animal rights groups and assorted rent-a mob activities.

            There are also the common-or-garden anti-Semites, who care not a fig for the Palestinians, who use this conflict as another stick with which to beat Jews, sorry, Zionists.

            • sarah_13

              Yes I think you are right, I should add to the categories I have stated. I think my point is that there are those who have a vested interest and either won’t or find it very difficult to see the israeli view. Then there are those either who haven’t thought about it too much and go along with the violent opponents of israel because they are intimidated, but won’t admit it, or are just incapable of looking at the facts. Then there are the ostentatious sentimentalists who don’t care and are are parading the cause for whatever reason. Then there are those who actually opposed to israel for purely political reasons and then there are the majority who I think are swayed by the facts, if they ever get to hear them.

              I’m sure israel will continue as they have been doing, considering their obligations but also their sovereign responsibility to their people. I heard Jack Straw talking about being in breach of the UN charter yesterday in parliament but nothing in the charter undermines any sovereign nations responsibility to their people. I don’t understand his position, I don’t understand how he doesn’t see how irresponsible it is to cave to the mob.

              Israel follows the rule of law, considers its obligations in every action and has a liberal supreme court along with all the myriad difficulties that all democracies face. They have the problem of the UN and the so called human rights council with its majority of human rights abusing states attacking israel, this is a problem but one that those defending israel must keep pointing out to the reasonable majority of people who do not know the facts.

              • gelert

                Straw is MP for Blackburn. Blackburn’s population is 25% Muslim.

                Simples !

              • Donafugata

                It’s likely to be the “sovereign nation’s responsibility to its people” that Straw, like many others at Westminster, fail to understand.

                • Damaris Tighe

                  Indeed, that’s key. The people who attack Israel for exercising a ‘sovereign nation’s responsibility to its people’ are the very ones who have abdicated that responsibility here at home. They fundamentally don’t believe in it. They are post-nationalists. That’s why they don’t like Israel.

          • Mike

            I have to agree with you here as the second type are the most dangerous. They usually consist of self loathing left wing inadequates hijacking others causes whether fictional or partly true just to make up for their own lack of self esteem.

            Whilst I can understand but not agree with Muslim supporters of the Palestinians, its the left wing apologists that do not deserve any air time as they are not affected, put in danger and have nothing to lose from their interence in others business.

            I can excuse the former as mostly they lack a sufficient education to rationalise their position in world politics and in addition, they are brain washed by militant clerics. In contrast, the white liberal journos in the BBC and left wing papers are alledgedly university trained and should have a brain they can switch on. Sadly this isn’t the case and they’re just as brain washed with their twisted ideology as others living in a culture thats still back in the middle ages.

            • sarah_13

              I agree. It is a perfectly understandable position if you are muslim or arab to find it difficult to see israel’s point of view. But those who articulate a rationale for hating israel, as you say, the university educated relativists, really should consider the actual facts before propagating their view.

              I am very concerned about those with sinister motives who jump on the pro-palestinian band wagon. To see the undisguised jew hatred at the rallies over the last few days of so called friends of palestine is very worrying. Not surprising to those of us who can see, but apparently a huge surprise to Owen Jones and the like. When the hysteria reaches fever pitch Mr Jones should not be surprised that the hysterical zealots are unwilling to differentiate between so called “friend” and “foe”.

              • tamimisledus

                muslims have no friends except muslims. allah “tells” them so.

            • beenzrgud

              That’s one way to look at it. Another is to say that the laws that are meant to protect the Palestinians and Israelis are exactly the same laws that protect us. We abuse them at our peril.

            • tamimisledus

              Minor clarification: muslims are brainwashed by the koran which is taught by ALL muslim clerics, not just militant clerics.
              Also, being “university trained” has nothing to do with training the brain, or for that matter the mind, in anything other than regurgitating prejudices promulgated by the universities.

        • sarah_13

          What “analogies” do you refer to?

        • Mike

          Israels accusers wont achieve what they really want and this must really p*** them off not having any axe to grind.

      • Bob-B

        On the other hand Hamas have a very similar view of Jews to Adolf Hitler, a fact which does not get a lot of attention.

        • Damaris Tighe

          Hitler admired Islam for its anti-semitism & Mein Kampf is a bestseller in the Arab world. It’s a mutual-admiration society.

          • global city

            with the western left forming the third leg of the triumvirate.

    • beenzrgud

      Why do you suggest that because you are in Israel that somehow your opinion is more objective than others. If the rockets that Hamas is firing are threatening you and your friends then that would surely make you more biased in favour of Israel. Maybe you are suggesting that Israelis have a more objective view of this conflict, although if you are I would appreciate some evidence to back your claim.
      I would have more respect for statement if you had personal experience of Cast Lead too. As it is your opinion is one sided and should be treated as such.

      • newname

        I accept that I am biased in favor of Israel. The point I was making was that I have a reason to be involved in the issue, whereas there always seem to be so many comments by people who have no apparent reason for involvement. Of course Israelis are not more objective than anyone else, but everyone seems to know what their motivations are (to kill all the Palestinians, to grab all their land, to rule the whole area – these are some statements I have seen) so perhaps it is worth listening to what they actually state as their motivations.
        I was in Israel during Cast Lead, but I am a grandmother and not in the army. However, I have 3 sons who were all officers and combat soldiers.
        My views demand no more respect than anyone else’s, I just feel they chime with the facts and perhaps add a different perspective.

        • beenzrgud

          “I accept that I am biased in favor of Israel”
          I suggest you start future comments with this statement. At least then people will know how much importance to attach to them.

          • newname

            Nobody who comments is unbiased. They all have an opinion, but I would hope that I express my opinions in a reasonable manner, which can be reasonably accepted or refuted.

            • beenzrgud

              You see nothing wrong in stating an opinion that somebody not actually living in Israel should not express an opinion on the subject? You really see nothing wrong in this position?

          • sarah_13

            Nice response to a grandmother whose sons are officers (conscripted) in the fighting to protect her and her family from terrorist rockets. She can do as she pleases. You might like to declare your interest prior to your comments.

            • beenzrgud

              My interest is the same as most in that I’m expressing my opinion on this important issue. I am actually allowed to do that you know. I can only hope that my comments are judged on their accuracy and impartiality.

              • sarah_13

                Indeed. We can all learn from the accuracy and humility of newname’s comments. She makes the point that those who accuse all who are anti-israel of being anti-semites is no more helpful than those whose view is that israel revel’s in murder. Objectivitiy does appear to be alive and well and living in Israel.

                • beenzrgud

                  Apart from expressing the opinion that people not currently living in Israel should not be voicing their opinion on this issue, I don’t really see that newname had much to say on the conflict between the Palestinians and Isreal. If you can learn anything from that then away you go !

                • sarah_13

                  I don’t think that is what she said. She was making a broader point that the debate on these blogs is depressingly polarised and lacks the facts necessary for a nuanced debate or real understanding of the predicament israelis find themselves in. So yes, I believe there is much to learn from her comment.

                • beenzrgud

                  In that case she would learn much from reading my comments, as would others.

                • HenryWood

                  Every time Hamas, Hezbollah et al foment trouble I can read comments
                  exactly the same as yours on dozens of left wing sites. I have
                  absolutely nothing to learn from your comments. I have read dozens upon
                  dozens of books on the subject and followed the factual history for most
                  of my adult life.

                  Every time the troubles start – and Israel
                  has *never* instigated it – the same moronic complaints pour forth,
                  “disproportionate”, always, *always* being the favourite and “1967 borders”
                  is usually next. There is absolutely nothing disproportionate in
                  self-defence against terrorism. It needs an iron fist inside an iron
                  glove and anyone who delves into the history of the Arab psyche will
                  soon realise this. And the 1967 “borders” were no such thing. They were
                  ceasefire lines, amnesty lines, nothing more, nothing less. The borders
                  were to be sorted in the negotiations following that ceasefire but the
                  Arabs resumed their “No, no, no” stance, just as they did in 1948. And just as they have done today – rejected the latest attempts at a ceasefire and continued bombarding Israel.

                  They
                  created “Palestinians” after the 1967 defeat. There were no
                  “Palestinians” when Nasser kicked out the UN to start his war along with
                  Syria, and Jordan. Jordan was holding the West Bank – ILLEGALLY – and
                  Jordan was advised to stay out before the war started. Jordan refused
                  and Jordan was kicked out of the West Bank after attacking Israel. The
                  “Palestinians” were not touched because they did not exist until created
                  by a masterful PR stroke following that defeat. I listened daily to
                  the war reports on the wireless and “Palestinians” were never ever
                  mentioned in any way whatsoever.

                  I repeat, I can learn *nothing* from reading *your* comments. (And BTW, your vanity is astounding.)

                • Damaris Tighe

                  A few decades ago several arab leaders categorically stated ‘there is no such thing as a Palestinian’. However, if they now want to be identified as such I think we have to accept it.

                • HenryWood

                  I quite agree but I get annoyed when posters like “beenzrgud” pontificate on the subject when it is quite obvious they have never bothered to get the full facts.
                  beenzrgud – “[…] she would learn much from reading my comments, as would others.”

                  And whilst we must of course accept their self-identity as Palestinians, I personally will not accept the massive distortion concerning “disproportionate” responses preached by their supporters. Tonight we already see the BBC (that disastrous organisation about which Mr. Liddle wrote his article) spinning about the end of today’s brief ceasefire. From another site here are two headlines:

                  “Hamas bombards Israel and refuses to agree a cease fire”

                  “Gaza conflict: Israel restarts air strikes amid rocket fire”

                  One is 100% factual while the other is the BBC spin on the news. Can anyone guess which is which?

                • Damaris Tighe

                  You’re preaching to the converted.

                • beenzrgud

                  I suspect the difference between us is that I see a multitude of grey when I look at both the Palestinians and Israel. I suspect you see only black and white. In some ways I’m glad we have nothing in common.

                • HenryWood

                  You see “a multitude of grey” because you have obviously never sought out the freely available black and white facts. Facts which will never change no matter how people like you try to distort them.

                • Jay_hawk

                  @ Henry Wood His vanity is indeed incredible…we are all unworthy in his presence. Not!

                • tamimisledus

                  Wrong. The only thing that an intelligence person would learn from your comments is that you fail to apply any intellectual rigour to your thoughts before you commit them to “paper”.

              • tamimisledus

                But you, on other hand, want us to judge “newname”‘s comments, not on the basis of their accuracy, but because she claims to be biased. (not that I actually accept her self-assessment, anyway)
                Based on the fact that you have not provided a rational argument here, and applying your logic, I should totally ignore any comments you make.
                But even a stopped clock is right twice a day, So you just might sometime make a valid argument. As a first step, you really should find out what the word “bias” really means.

        • Donafugata

          By “everyone” you probably mean the MSM, the vast majority of which are biased against Israel.

          That is what this article is about, the BBC and ITN as well as newspapers are far too sympathetic towards the PA cause.

          As websites like this one show, most of public opinion does understand Israel’s problem and realises that it has to defend itself.

          Please be assured that the BBC and The Guardian aren’t
          “everyone”.

  • Shazza

    Never, ever forget how the BBC at great taxpayer expense, suppressed the publication of the Balen Report.
    Jeremy Bowen, a modern day Lord Haw-Haw is an utter disgrace.

    • Terry Field

      A lightweight sports and trivial news reporter grossly misplaced and out of his – shallow – depth

  • misomiso

    There’s a test that shows how genuine supporters of each side in their search for peace. For those that support the Palestinians, its a recognition that Israel has the right to defend itself, that the rocket attacks have to stop and that there are some very nasty people in Hamas.

    However on the other side, it is the recognition that the settlements have to go. Period. Its simply not credible to write articles supporting Israel while not recognising that everythign East of the 1967 is immoral, and has to go.

    • newname

      This comment comes up over and over, but fails to address the fact that the conflict did not start in 1967, nor that uprooting settlements in Gaza did not seem to make Gazans more pro-Israel.

      • misomiso

        The poison of the middle east conflict is going to take generations to draw downand anyway, the Gazans are kept in what is effectively an open air prison. They are subject to constant airstrikes and have no control of their borders. Would you be well disposed towards Israel?

        The settlements issue is about Justice and morality. The conflict did start earlier than 1967, but the 1967 lines are what was agreed. My point is that it is not possible to call Israel Just, Moral, ethical or Rightious while there are settlements on the West Bank.

        • Damaris Tighe

          I would also like to see the Israelis out of the WB, but let’s not forget why they’re there in the first place: they were invaded from the WB & captured the territory as the result of a successful defence. They originally expected to give back the area in return for peace, but were rejected (the 3 ‘no’s’ of Khartoum). That’s when they started building – a mistake in my view.

          • sarah_13

            Indeed. I’m sure the Israelis would like to be out of the west bank but not if they get 20 times the rockets they are now receiving from gaza, how can they even contemplate it. That is why they won’t relinquish control, and if that was our country we would all be doing exactly the same.

            • Damaris Tighe

              This is the dilemma. If you go up in a helicopter it takes just 4 minutes to fly from the western coast to the eastern border with the WB. That’s about the time it takes to fly from the City of London to Hounslow.

        • newname

          The Gazans are only subject to airstrikes when they attack, or do you have any evidence of unprovoked Israeli strikes?
          Who agreed the 1967 lines? As far as I know they are armistice lines, not borders.
          Justice and morality are very fluid concepts in political terms. Actually, most Israelis are more concerned with practical survival than being judged “just, moral, ethical or righteous” by the rest of the world, whose example of these qualities is seen to be mixed, at best. Look at the map again, and note the size of Israel against the size of the Arab world.
          You might not know that many Israelis do not support the settlement movement, but the example of Gaza makes them loth to press for a withdrawal.
          The Gazans are hemmed in (by Egypt as well as Israel) because they are under the control of a terrorist organization. I too would probably not be well disposed to Israel if I had been raised on a diet of hatred, but I hope I would realize that my best (or only) chance of a better future lay in trying to stop Hamas making futile attacks on Israel.

          • Damaris Tighe

            The pre-1967 lines are indeed armistice lines. They never became formal borders because none of the arab states would negotiate, & then in 1967 they invaded again & lost yet more land. The Israelis have been trying to negotiate final borders ever since. As far as I know Israel only attacks Gaza when it has been subject to rocket attacks, & it ignores the small attacks – for a quiet life.

            It could be argued that Israel’s incursions into Lebanon in the 1980s were unprovoked. Israel’s argument was that Lebanon was being used as a launch pad by the PLO.

        • HenryWood

          The Egyptian border with Gaza seems to be more tightly sealed than the Israel/Gaza border yet we never seem to hear of Palestinians being ill-disposed to Egypt.

          • Damaris Tighe

            It was the Egyptians who destroyed all their smuggling tunnels. However nasty Israel supplies their gas, water & electricity …. for free.

            • HenryWood

              It never ceases to amaze me, the absolute one-sided blindness of the critics of Israel.
              Re the electricity, quite a few news sources carried the story of how some 70,000 Gaza residents have had their power cut off, power that comes from Israel. No, those big, bad Israelis did not switch it off – Hamas managed to score a hit on a high voltage line from the Ashkelon power station, a target they have constantly aimed at. Unfortunately the line they destroyed was a power feed to Gaza. Now that they have been successful with their aim, the power may be out for a while because engineers are not too willing to attempt repairs whilst the rocket barrage continues.
              How cruel! In a couple of days Al Bowen will be reporting on the humanitarian disaster caused by the lack of electricity in parts of Gaza.

      • sarah_13

        Newname – misomiso’s lack of understanding of the history and reality of israel is part of the problem israel now has. Those who purport to advocate “the israel/palestine” case do not know what they are talking about. Misomiso wants to make this an easy solve. It is not an easy solve. The fact that Obama refers to the “1967” lines as though they were more than just ceasefire lines behind which israel was able to push back a jordanian occupying force is neither here nor there to them. Why? Because its too much like hard work.

        You comment on the disappointment you feel about the “passions” displayed in these comments. It is often because when one meets ignorance with facts its hard for those with a purely emotional involvement to change their position.

        I feel for Israelis. But in many ways, and you may not realise this, your fight is our fight. Truth v sentiment.

  • ADW

    I must admit I have struggled over the years to understand the fanatical obsession of the British left (Graun, Beeb) with Israel. For the most part since 1973 it has been a low-level border dispute – low-level in the sense of infrequent conflict with not many casualties on either side. Yet the amount of coverage it receives – opinion pieces almost daily on CIF at times – is staggering. Over the past forty years there have been far more intense conflicts across the world that haven’t reached anything like the amount of press coverage for the lefties here, and certainly not the rabid opinions about who is right and who is wrong.

    One occasional explanation I have been given is that Britain “created” the problem in the first place. You would have thought that this might have been spent after more than half a century, though of course for lefties Britain’s wrongs are permanent and wholly without mitigation. But even that doesn’t explain why Israel over everything else. Take the Sri Lankan civil war. This occurred because Britain imported the Tamils from India because they worked better than the locals. When the British left the locals promptly changed the law so that in order to work for the government you had to speak Singhala, and imposed various other forms of discrimination. The Tamils were left disenfranchised and began to fight for separation accordingly. The resulting conflict was very bloody, and involved many atrocities on both sides, sometimes on the same day as various Israeli attacks on Gaza. Yet the lefties screamed at israel and made no sound about the Sri Lankans. Elsewhere, the Syrian civil war has on all estimates generated more casualties in a couple of years than all Israeli wars in history.

    So what is going on? Perhaps it is that the lefties see the Israelis as white Europeanesque sorts, and the Palestinians as ethnic minorities. Never mind most Israelis aren’t white, and that Judaism is a religion more than a race.

    Alternatively, it could be because Jews don’t behave like proper ethnic minorities in this country, by claiming victim status at every opportunity and being dependent on the state (and the cheerleading of journalists and academics). Instead, they outperform the locals in education and employment, by dint of their cultural values.

    • Alexsandr

      mebbe its because Israelis generally speak English so give good sound bites.

      • tamimisledus

        muslims don’t need to speak good English. They just let the Guardian, the BBC and just about everyone in the political establishment make up their sound bites (propaganda) for them.

    • Mike

      Also, the Jews like the majority in the UK have no problem in taking the rise out of their culture and religion and don’t issue a Jewish fatwa when someone else makes a joke at their expense. Mel Brooks a jew was classic at joking about the Jewish culture and religion, so was Dave Allen over Catholic religion and the many other christian comedians but we all know what happened to Salmond Rusdie or those Danish cartoons when Islam was joked about.

      • Terry Field

        In other words, unlike the towelheads, they are civilised.
        Peas be upon them (and carrots, beans, corgettes, squash and radishes)

        • Alexsandr

          can you imagine a ‘life of stan’ movie about a 6-7th century orphaned man from Mecca? ‘He is not the last prophet, he is a very naughty boy’

          • Terry Field

            Now that is going too far………at this rate you will suggest a Life of Brian taking an oblique look at the Passion – thank goodness you have not suggested such a thing.
            There is a person I have heard of – Hairy Blackhouse I believe she calls herself – who would take an extremely dim view of such a thing.

    • gelert

      They also receive the support of the Great Satan, the USA. The Beeb hate the US; except for going there on licence money jollies.

      Of course, the Beeb love sucking up to Islam and looking down their noses at people who are worried at its incursion into British life.

      • global city

        That’s the main reason. The US came to Israel’s aid when it faced annihilation, until then it had the support of the Soviets too. The left were happy when the Jews were all about Kibbutz and socialism, but the moment the Soviets switched to the Arabs, so did the Lefties.

        • gelert

          They also had French planes; until de Gaulle cynically decided it was in France’s interests to side with the Arabs

          • global city

            Yes. That reminds me of the ‘Arab Spring’ when the left had been going on and on about how Britain and the US had armed and supported all those despots. It was obvious just how devious UK and US had been when you see all the military equipment sold by us looked like Soviet stock, with the occasional French fighter sitting on the bombed out airport runway!

        • Mike

          The lefties have less morals than a sewer rat and will switch sides quicker than a whore drops her knickers if its to their advantage.

    • MaxSceptic

      The reason is simple: it is not important how many Arabs die (170,000+ plus in Syria in the past 3 years in comparison to less than 10,000 dead in the who Israel/Arab conflict during the past 25 years), but who can be blamed.

      Radical Lefties don’t care about dead Arabs; they care about the lack of dead Jews.

      • Mike

        Its ironic that at least the Nazi’s were honest about their policy of genocide and didn’t really hide it from public view but the modern day lefties want the same but hide behind others for fear of exposing their fascist views and genocidal wishes !

    • Picquet

      You degrade your argument with an entirely incorrect statement on the origin of Tamils in Sri Lanka. Where on Earth did you got the fact that the British imported them wholesale from India? Good points otherwise.

      • ADW

        Cheers, this was explained to me by a Sri Lankan, who admittedly may have had an axe to grind. Britain ran the country for over a hundred years before independence, and preferred TAmils in the civil service etc. Similar thing in Fiji – British brought Indians there.

        • Alexsandr

          the british took indioans to africa too. Remember Gandhi was in s africa, and there were the Asians in Uganda,and Kenya.

        • Damaris Tighe

          The Tamils of Sri Lanka are indeed descended from immigrants from India. There is a Tamil state in India.

    • Forest Fan

      Great stuff…my thoughts exactly.

    • Truth

      Are you for or against apartheid?

      • wudyermucuss

        Against,which is was I oppose the apartheid juntas that surround Israel,the region’s sole multi racial,multi ethnic parliamentary democracy.

      • ADW

        Totally against, in all forms. What on earth made you think otherwise?

    • Grantman

      ADW, the answer is really simple. Jew hatred. There. That’s it. All flows from that.

      It’s not that Britain created the problem. It’s not that Israel is Europeanesque. It’s not that they’re white or brown or yellow or whatever color you want. It’s not that Judaism is a religion or a race. It’s not even behavior (behaviour?) of an ethnic minority. It’s not even overperformance.

      It’s Jew Hatred. Pure and simple, and no amount of obfuscation can change that. Hope I helped a bit.

      • Damon

        Spot on, old chap. To be fair, Melanie Philips has been making the same basic point for years, but it’s no use telling the Graun or the BBC.

      • Harry Pond

        Me and my Mrs had a blather tonight about ‘who are the Jews’ I’m still none the wiser. I must be thick or something. Could you give me your take on it please?

        • Grantman

          Harry, sorry for the delay, I just saw your reply. I’m not sure how to answer. What do you really mean, “who are the Jews?” We’re an ancient people whose nationhood dates back to Sinai and forefathers hundreds of years further back. What are you asking?

          • Harry Pond

            oh, OK- no problem Grantman. Its just the Jews always seem to be on the news and I’m a poet but don’t know it, etc,xx

            • Harry Pond

              where is Sinai, is that in the desert or something?

              • Harry Pond

                is it somewhere near the Pyrimids where the Egyptions come from?

  • Damaris Tighe

    More infantile lunacy on the Mail Online today: pictures of Israelis laughing as they rush to their bomb shelters transposed with miserable looking Palestinians. It pays to whine, even as your own people fire another volley of rockets at civilians. Brits really have changed – during WW2 they valued stoicism & the stiff upper lip.

    • sarah_13

      Quite, and now they are supporting the very same muslim brotherhood in their stated aim to kill all jews. It is astonishing really. We managed, after millions of deaths to defeat adolf hitler and the mufti of jerusalem who supported him and now the left is fighting the same battle on the muslim brotherhood’s side. I wonder where Owen Jones’s tweet is today saying “Hamas ignores ceasefire and continues firing rockets into israel”. Shame on his sentimental one sided tweets.

      • Damaris Tighe

        The crass hand-wringing sentimentality that makes liberal lefties side with jihadis is hooted at with derision by the jihadis themselves (although of course they use it).

        • sarah_13

          I’m sure that is correct. I despair at how many people follow Mr Jones, but then again given that his actual intention is to use the horror of the situation in israel and gaza as an excuse to ” wallow” in his response it’s not surprising people are following him. It’s all about how upset he is about it, how it enrages him. Forget how Hamas is abusing and using palestinians. Forget how Hamas deliberately inculcates hate. Forget how Imams in gaza encourage people to embrace death. Forget how israelis “must not” respond just to keep within Mr Jones’s view of what is acceptable. Forget that Israelis should not have to continue another 10 years living their lives running from bomb shelter to bomb shelter. Forget that gazans should not have to continue lying to their friends and family when they take their children dying from disease to israeli hospitals to be treated out of fear of violence and accusations of being “collaborators” or “zionists”. It is in fact an insult to those who are being used as pawns by Hamas in their incompetent, pointless and sad “facade” of power. And of course in response to the above criticism he would be “offended”. Case closed.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Syrian rebels are also treated secretly in Israeli hospitals.

            • sarah_13

              Absolutely right.

            • Shorne

              I can expand on that
              “The official PA daily reported on a visit by the PA Minister of Health, Hani Abdeen, to Israel’s Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem. The daily noted that 30% of the child patients in Hadassah are Palestinians and that the Israeli hospital is training “60 Palestinian medical interns and specialist physicians who will be returning to the [Palestinian] Authority areas to carry out their work.” The hospital has a special program to train Palestinian doctors to treat cancer among children, reported the PA daily.””Israel has decided to set up a field hospital for wounded Syrians on an IDF military base within the Golan Heights. This is in response to the increasingly desperate humanitarian crisis in Syria. In the past month, a number of wounded Syrians have been treated within Israeli hospitals.”

              This is terrible, I seem to agree with all the comments on this article, it’s never happened before…I’ve just bought a Panama hat as well.

              • Damaris Tighe

                Thank you for quoting this. It never appears in the western media. People have no idea.

                • Shorne

                  There are a lot of things that never get mentioned in Western or Eastern media, this is from the Quran

                  Sura 5:21] “O my people, enter the holy land that GOD has decreed for you, and do not rebel, lest you become losers.”

                  Sura 7:137] “We let the oppressed people inherit the land, east and west, and we blessed it. The blessed commands of your Lord were thus fulfilled for the Children of Israel, to reward them for their steadfastness, and we annihilated the works of Pharaoh and his people and everything they harvested.”

                  [Sura 7:144] He said, “O Moses, I have chosen you, out of all the people, with My messages and by speaking to you. Therefore, take what I have given you and be appreciative.”

                • Terry Field

                  The bits God says are in poor English. Is he the product of a celestial comprehensive school?

            • Beetlehead

              Those cunning Israelis! Healing Muslims so they can go forth and kill other Muslims – brilliant, absolutely brilliant!

          • Ooh!MePurse!

            Superb Sarah. Thank you.

          • Terry Field

            I like Hamas – I make mine from chick peas and mix it with olive oil and sprinkle a little paprika on it.
            Scrummy.

            • Damaris Tighe

              M&S brand is best.

              • Terry Field

                i do it myself.

                Make Hamas that is

        • global city

          as has often been stated on these threads, if the jihadis actually won then the lefties would be the first to the chopping block!

          • Terry Field

            Lets get Gordon Brown dual citizenship with Saudi or ISIS – (even better)

            • global city

              Yes. Imagine him kneeling there, about to get his head chopped off, desperately trying to think of something other than ‘bigot’ by which to describe them.

              • Terry Field

                I suspect he may say ‘oh bogit’ as the scimitar separates his socialism from his common sense.

                • global city

                  Indeed!

    • IainRMuir

      “Brits really have changed”

      Some have. Some haven’t.

    • forgotten_man

      In WW2 the Brit’s response to indiscriminate rocket attacks was Dresden.
      The Israelis really are pussycats in comparison.
      It is a pity many don’t understand how lucky Hamas have been so far…

      • Damaris Tighe

        These idiots have lived their whole lives in peacetime. They have no idea of war & what it entails. They really are infantile.

        • Terry Field

          Brits are emasculated – women (of a sort) – ‘run’ Britain – they do it quite ineffectively but since there is very little to decide upon there now, one may as well leave them to it and let them play at being significant.

    • Lydia Robinson

      The Daily Fail is reverting to type – it was the favourite outlet of the Black Shirts in the 30s.

  • DougS

    “Will the BBC accept that Hamas wants to kill lots of Jews?”

    You misread the situation Rod. Those Hamas-fired rockets are a firework display sent to entertain Israeli citizens.

    The (unspeakable) BBC and the UN understand that, why don’t you?

    • Tim Baker

      Unfortunately, the Tories are too chicken to privatise the BBC.

    • Lydia Robinson

      What’s more they are only “home made” whatever that may mean.

      • pablo58

        It means made at home. Usually refers to cakes, pies etc. though.

  • Alexsandr

    Why do some people seem to be hard of thinking on this (Not Rod, BTW)
    Its a war. Hamas want the war. They must do or they would stop firing rockets indiscriminately at civilians. Firing anything is an act of war.
    Part of war is that when under fire, you have to seek out and destry the enemy and their assets.
    Israel has been very restrained in this and Hamas have been very good at the PR.
    We should see through the PR and think what its like for Israelis to be under bombardment.

    • Terry Field

      Why nopt remove the Garzens and put them in Syrear?

      • Harry Pond

        eh?

  • lookout

    Spot on, the BBC, with the rest of the lame stream media would rejoice if Tel Aviv was hit with nuclear biological weapon. Isaiah 17 verse 1 ends the speculation, how are the journos going to report that

    • Alexsandr

      bowen is a disgraceful biased so called journo

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