Coffee House

Until the West confronts Putin, planes will keep falling out of the sky

23 July 2014

5:34 PM

23 July 2014

5:34 PM

Two Ukrainian SU-25 ground-attack jets have been shot down in Donetsk Oblast, about five miles away from the MH17 crash site. This double strike reinforces a chilling message: the separatist war in Ukraine continues to escalate.

Still, I’m not surprised. There’s a key reason why MH17 has failed to temper this conflict: alongside Russia, the rebels’ strength of purpose exceeds that of the West.

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Since the MH17 massacre, international attention has flooded back to Ukraine. Nevertheless, the West’s response has been tepid at best. The EU and US have hedged on new sanctions and continue to rule out military support to Ukraine. Common grief has led to anger, but the anger has led to no escalation in policy. And this is a western strategic calculus from which President Putin has taken solace. Recognising his culpability in downing a civilian airliner may go unpunished, Putin has had little reason to change tack. Certainly, he’s expressed sympathy and promised to support the investigation. But for Putin, words and commitments are irrelevant. They are only mechanisms to insulate his hidden agenda. Instead, what really matters to Putin is deniability and power.

The issue of deniability is critical. Since MH17 went down, the Russian government has steadfastly denied any responsibility. Absurdly, they blame the Ukrainian government. Taking Putin at his word, you’d believe that the Donetsk rebels are independent of Russian influence. While that narrative is patently untrue, Putin is gambling that he can weather this storm of controversy via consistent denial. He is a former KGB officer defined by that career: Putin is intimately comfortable with political risk and physical brutality. Waging his covert war in Ukraine, the Russian President will deny everything as long as it serves his purpose. He knows that western intelligence services are aware he is lying, but until western leaders confront him, he’ll keep denying any involvement – because he’s learned that it works. In part, this is also a tactical calculation. If Putin had forced the rebels to de-escalate, his command authority would have become overtly apparent to western opinion. Thus, by encouraging the rebels to continue their attacks, he pretends his influence is limited.

But Putin’s calculus teaches us something broader. Until he absolutely has to – until Russia’s economy descends into a sanctions induced abyss – Putin will not yield. Because for Putin and the ‘greater-Russia’ nationalist-rebels, the war in Ukraine is not a transitory issue. Instead, it’s an existential fight for the purity of a new Russia. A Russia that is strong, feared and able to control those who surround it. Most of all, a Russia that is proud. And to win this Russia, Putin is absolutely willing to fight.

Ultimately, that strategic and emotive agenda explains why, even now, Putin is expanding support to his proxies. And why planes continue to fall from the Ukrainian sky.

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Show comments
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  • Bill_der_Berg

    Was the shooting down of the two military aircraft really an escalation of hostilities? It was not that long ago that thirty or so civilians died when a trade union building was set on fire by Western backed ‘fighters’. It’s true that those victims were mere human beings, while SU 25’s are very expensive weapons systems, but even so…?

    • iaagg

      1) They weren’t western backed. If you have some proof of a Western backing show it. If not, Keep drinking Putin’s kool aid!

      2) The technology was supplied by Russia: a Manpads over the border missile strike or a Russian MiG.
      3) The downing the mh17 show how trigger happy the terrorists are.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …you are quite the fantasist, lad!

        • iaagg

          I wish I were, hen maybe we can avoid a very deadly NATO vs. Russia war.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …your wish is granted, lad. You’re a fantasist, and a troll.

            • iaagg

              You are not getting the point. Let me enplane. If what I say was fantasy we are not in imminent danger of a Hot war against
              Russia.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                Nobody gets your trolling, troll.

      • Bill_der_Berg

        Every schoolboy knows that the US and EU have been solidly behind the new rulers of Ukraine since they seized power?. Have you not seen the EU offers of financial aid and the US offers of military aid?

        The full facts about the downing of the Malaysian passenger jet have yet to emerge. Of course, the usual suspects are claiming that they already know the truth, but that is neither here nor there.

        • iaagg

          1)Yes
          2)Yes
          3)Yes

          • iaagg

            I’ll agree with anybody here form logical deductions like the above…..that is all.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …well, that is all with the exception of reminding all that you’re a troll, troll.

  • Freedom

    Thanks for the article, Mr Rogan. The West needs to man up: Putin is the worst of men — just a killer on the make, an empty emperor: why are so many blind to that?

    • Maidmarrion

      Because they don’t wear your rose tinted glasses.
      Have a wee lookie at Iraq , Afghanistan and Libya – the US and the UK can claim those ” successes” .
      I didn’t notice Mr Putin or Russian involvement in those evils.

      • iaagg

        You have blacked in glasses. Just an example of one who cannot think for themselves and rely on propaganda for their news.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …good thing you’re around to clear it up, eh troll?

          • iaagg

            Somebody has to do it. lol

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …yes, somebody has to be a troll, and you fill the bill, troll.

          • iaagg

            Keep calling me a troll…please.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              Keep being a troll, troll.

      • Bonkim

        Putin’s predecessors were stung in Afghanistan by the CIA with the help og the Taliban – one would have expected the US to have learnt more about the Taliban than the Russians – but alas! different generation – same mistake.

  • TRAV1S

    So you admit the Ukrainian government is bombing its’ own people. Hang on isn’t that what Assad and Gaddafi did? And which side did this country take?

  • Bonkim

    Say what you want, this will continue until Ukraine has a federal structure or the east secedes to Russia.

    • iaagg

      No, eventually Russia will be defeated in Ukraine, with Western aid which is on its way.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …so you fantasized that as well, troll?

        • iaagg

          It is looking like a 3 weeks left in the war without more Russian aid. That is from the Ukrainian command. I am not going to link anymore to help you. Look it up.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …so your fantasies give you a timeline as well as an outcome, eh troll?

            You’re quite the fantastical little troll, troll.

  • Baron

    Whoever hired you, Tom Rogan, should be sacked.

    The rant makes no sense, you’re misjudging the KGB colonel, you’re in denial of our Kiev cock-up in February, you conveniently forget facts that don’t fit your take on things, and your solution beggars belief.

    One can only hope and pray that others influencing the West’s policy towards Russia don’t have their brains infected the way you seem to. Any busy road near the place you live?

    • pole

      this is typical article “on order”. someone says to guy what to write about and the guy follows – good job, except it’s low on common sense and high on one-sidedness

      • Freedom

        And you can sod off, as well. Nasty brute.

      • Baron

        Isn’t an argument advanced by someone always one sided? Have you ever come across someone making a case then trying to unmake it? Hmmm

    • Freedom

      Sod off, Baron, you’re out of your depth and fighting for evil. (Someone put drugs in your drink? You’re talking nonsense these days.)

      • Baron

        As you hopefully know Baron has replied, it was taken down quickly, hopefully not quickly enough for Disqus to deliver it to you. Sorry, but the barbarian won’t try again, it’s pointless

    • iaagg

      So you want him dead heh? I see what you are made of to want to see a journalist dead.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …well, maybe the guy has as much as you trolls, in which case…

  • Charles Hatvani

    Dictators act quick knowing how short their time is; democracies are slow for they are here for ever.

    • Freedom

      Except that they’re not….

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Call me insensitive or callous if you will, but it’s all about who was killed, where, when, by whom and how. When 298 (largely) Caucasians from Advanced Capitalist Countries are killed in a terrorist outrage the western MSM wallows in it for weeks. 298 fatalities would simply be a bad week in Baghdad of Kabul. Don’t you think third-worlders have human feelings, too? Especially when their relatives are deliberately killed and the crime dismissed by the perpetrators as “collateral damage”.
    Jack, Japan Alps

    • Jacky Treehorn

      Probably due to the fact that Islam is a death cult. If they think it’s good to die fighting for an invisible sky god why should we in the west be overtly worried?

      • Kennybhoy

        Fuckwit!

        • Jacky Treehorn

          So what do you dissagree with? Islam is a cult that celebrates death and going to heaven to be met by 72 virgins or that Muslims think it’s good to die for mo?

      • Bill_der_Berg

        The Christian Zionists are a grisly bunch, too. They are looking forward to the end of the world when they will enjoy seeing the destruction of everyone but themselves.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          Who are these?

    • Kennybhoy

      Actually the BBC sort of agreed with you tonight. They commented on how while all eyes are on Ukraine and Gaza the better part of a thousand people were killed in Syria…

    • Freedom

      What the H LL are you talking about? The whole story is that NO ONE is making of this what it is — that nearly 300 innocent people were shot down in a passenger plane by Russian agents who knew da mn well that they were shooting down a plane. NO ONE CARES. Take your racial obsession and shove it!

      • Baron

        Listen, Freedom, and this isn’t meant ironically, Baron has just scanned the newest postings, you seem to be in a rather unpleasant state of mind. Just calm down, it’s a debate we are having here, nobody listens to us anyway (except the MI5 and of course the Americans, who listen to anyone everywhere), yyou just relax, the investigation will hopefully tell who did what and when.

        • Freedom

          I’m in a truthful ‘state of mind’: sorry if you find that discomfiting.

          • Baron

            Two points, first, ‘he who angers you conquers you’, said the great Kenny, sadly your postings smell of anger, second, hang around, soon you may find your take on things may not be the one that wins it.

    • Freedom

      You really are disgusting. Why don’t you bug off to a Japanese mountain where you’ll be happy in your warped sense of justice? Thanks.

    • Maidmarrion

      Children of a lesser god indeed.

  • Diggery Whiggery

    It’s completely fair in a war, as that’s what it is, for them to target Ukranian military aircraft. To conflate that with MH17 is frankly absurd.

    Now just to recap on the info given by American Intel today, here’s what they know:

    ………………………..

    Here’s what they don’t know:

    1. Where precisely the missile was fired from

    2. Who definitely fired it, although it is ‘likely’ to be pro-Russian rebels. How have they concluded this you may ask? Facebook posts is the answer.

    3. What missile was used, although they once again say it was probably………..whatever, they don’t know.

    4. Who supplied the missile, Russia, stolen from Ukrainian base, third party, once again no credible certainty.

    Here’s what they looked desperately to find but didn’t;

    1. A link to the Russian government.

    Given that they know precisely b**ger all so far, the above article is frankly absurd speculation, nothing more. Either this was a terrible screw up by the rebels, but not a declaration of war from the ‘new Hitler’ on the west or it was deliberate. If it was deliberate, the Russians and rebels had nothing to gain from such an action, so……….

    • pole

      Agree. Deliberate – only Ukraine could do. By mistake – only Rebels. shouldnt be other way around. The interesting question remain, if Rebels shoot it down by mistake, how much Ukrainians “helped” with that mistake to happen (fake radio messages or whatever)

      • Diggery Whiggery

        Yes, I’d like to know if Ukranian air traffic control directed the plane to fly 300 miles north of it’s habitual corridor and if so why. As for the theory about there being thunderstorms in the area, from the satellite photos I’ve seen on that date and time, the storms covered both the northern route and the usual route.

        • pole

          would you provide any link to storms website? could be interesting

        • the viceroy’s gin

          At 33,000 feet, are thunderstorms an issue?

          • Diggery Whiggery

            Apparently.

        • iaagg

          Always blame the victim. Doesn’t work if you have any inelegance at al.

          • Diggery Whiggery

            Er no, I just like to have all the info before leaping to judgment.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …what is “inelegance et al”, troll?

  • pole

    I dont know if anybody agrees, but main guilt should lie upon those who allowed plane to fly over war zone. It’s like they were not aware of previous planes falling out of sky or what?

    • the viceroy’s gin

      They should take a lot of blame.

      Here’s the correct blame apportioning, which I’ve taken the liberty to provide for you plebs, and this should settle this matter for all time:

      RESP. PARTY — TRANSGRESSION(S) — PORTION of BLAME

      EUSSR/USA — Fomented revolution in Ukraine — 15%

      EUSSR/USA — Failed to close air traffic in warzone – 15%

      Obama —– Handed over Crimea like Chamberlain at Munich — 15%

      Kiev thugs — Redirected an airliner into a known shootdown zone — 15%

      Russia — Failed backchannel diplomacy on the air space issue — 10%

      Russia — Failure to secure firing mode protocol for AA missiles — 20%

      East Ukraine thugs — Same as immediately above — 10%

      • pole

        wow, nicely closed book, the city of london is waiting 🙂

        • the viceroy’s gin

          Yes, if my assumptions don’t hold up, your scenario could come into play. This is a work in progress, obviously.

          • pole

            One thing I’m pretty sure about is that both Russians and USA know exactly what happened. I can’t imagine their satellites not being directed at that area (and it would show any rocket launch). the question is why they don’t publish that data, must be some backstage deal going on.

          • iaagg

            Ah so you admit they all assumptions. Sorry, game over.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              Sorry, you’re a troll.

              • iaagg

                You have nothing to say but I am a troll. To bad. That would signify the end my friend.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  You are nothing but a troll. To bad.

                  That would signify that you are a troll.

      • iaagg

        Wow you made it equal 100 % way to go. Shift the context of the argument; another ploy. Infective and proves nothing.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          So, same as what you’re doing then, lad?

          • iaagg

            Point out one comment where I shifted the argument laddy.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              Point out one comment where you’re not a troll

              • iaagg

                You are shifting the argument again. lol.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  You’re being a troll again, troll.

  • Roger Hudson

    The Ukrainians can put Russian lies to bed by releasing all their ( unedited) air traffic data (voice, transponder/IFF and radar), civil and military, from the moment the previous ATC centre ‘handed over’ MH17 to the Ukrainians.
    Where is it ? Release it to the investigators.
    The ‘black box’ data needs to be studied alongside the ATC data, not just a few seconds before shoot-down but all the flight in Ukraine.
    If the Ukrainians don’t come up with it the Russians will be believed.

  • rtj1211

    Now Mr Rogan

    I’m going to bomb you house with your children in it. The same for your brothers and sisters and THEIR children.

    Are you going to shoot my bombers down or are your children totally irrelevant??

    Come on, Big Man: tell us what it will take to defend your children??

    • Tom Rogan

      What a particularly odd comment.

      • Kennybhoy

        How so young Maister R?

      • Scradje

        Shills are infecting all disqus sites. Best to cull the lot of them.

        • iaagg

          Shills are like roaches. They must be have a coordinated plan of removal.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …sorta like somebody removed your ability to use proper English, lad?

            • iaagg

              Like talking to myself like you did below.?

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …is that gibberish supposed to mean something, troll?

                • iaagg

                  OK you cannot start a sentence with a period. First grade grammar.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …you haven’t even made it to first grade grammer, troll.

            • iaagg

              You arguments as are weak as you are. All you can do is make personal attacks. Keep up the good work for the Adolf Putin.
              I know you will be rewarded, with gun salute. 😀 Go fight in Ukraine for Igor if you are so eager. Then you will get a real gun salute. LOL.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                Be gone, troll.

    • pole

      I beg to.. agree.

    • iaagg

      If you hide terrorist in you house or apartment block with your children you all will be killed and the responsibility or lack there of is on YOU. You knew the risks.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …sorta like we know the risk of you internet trolls, eh lad?

        • iaagg

          ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …that’s your most coherent post, troll. Keep it up.

  • TheBuckStopsHere

    The problem is the EU is so dependent on Russian energy that nobody has any desire for conflict. What I think is very interesting is that Europeans condemned the US invasion of Iraq as a pursuit of oil and yet we see here the very same. A rising death toll for the sake of energy.

    The author is right on his assessments of Putin, but perhaps he should elucidate the endemic hypocrisy of the European ‘politically engaged’. I would suggest that rather than posing solutions that unfortunately nobody will be willing to get on-board with, the author highlight the incoherence of ‘enlightened’ western-European liberalism.

    • Roger Hudson

      Putin is just waiting for October to reach for the gas-tap.

  • kingkevin3

    Or the skies are not safe in yemen, pakistan, afghanistan and several other places around the world until someone reins in you know who? The level of hysteria about this incident is hilarious. You could almost believe the americans and their side kicks the israelis are the white vested seventh cavalry out of 1950s B movie.Propaganda worth of Pravda in the 30s. Thank god for the germans.

    • Kennybhoy

      “The level of hysteria about this incident is hilarious.2

      Absolutely…

    • iaagg

      I am happy the you find the death of 300 innocents hilarious. It shows me just what kind of thing you are.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …and you’ve showed us that you’re a troll.

        • iaagg

          OH you agree with the first part. Thanks, there is hope for you yet.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            There’s no hope for you, troll.

  • pole

    Dah, Of course they will keep shooting them down. Planes bomb them, so what do you expect?

  • Kennybhoy

    “Until the West confronts Putin, planes will keep falling out of the sky.”

    Of ffs!

    Siberia Airlines Flight 1812

    A Russian airliner brought down by a Ukrainian SAM fired from the Crimea!

    And a further selection in no particular order

    Libyan Arab Airlines Flight 114

    El Al Flight 402

    Air France Flight 1611

    Aerolinee Itavia Flight 870

    Korean Air Lines Flight 007

    and

    Iran Air Flight 655 of which George Bush Snr said “I will never apologize for the United States — I don’t care what the facts are… I’m not an apologize-for-America kind of guy.”

    • Roger Hudson

      Never apologize, never explain. The old elitist, ‘skull and bones’ and ‘Bullingdon’ mantra.

    • Kennie

      In a way, he was right. It should be us, the British, who ought to apologise for America (to all the tribes of native American Indians).
      The yanks should apologiSe for spoiling our language.

  • Laguna Beach Fogey

    Ukrainian jets are fair game.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      Putin: “What’s the bag limit on Ukrainian jets, anyway? I love Ukrainian jets sauteed and served over rice… mmmmmmmmmm.”

      • Roger Hudson

        The Su-25 is good for fighting ISIS, sell them the rest.
        Wait until the Su-34s get into action.

      • iaagg

        If you are such a Putin lover, go to live in Russia. It would be good for you.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          Be gone, troll.

          • iaagg

            OK, you ordered yourself to leave now Leave!

            • the viceroy’s gin

              Again, be gone, troll.

  • Augustus

    In any case it’s clear that the parties don’t comply with their commitments. If you’re flying fighter aircraft over an area where a truce is supposed to be in force then it’s logical to shoot at them. And how could the pilots have ejected on time? A BUK missile makes scrap of the whole plane in an instant. Or did the Ukrainians crash the planes in order to prove something?

    • iaagg

      Not all surface to air missiles are Buks. Some are heat seeking and would strike the engine leaving time for bail out.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        How is it you’ve fantasized their firing location, lad?

        • iaagg

          This one I will give you. I have not facts to back that up. I’ll admit when I am wrong. Can you?

  • CraigStrachan

    So Russia joins Iran and ISIS on Tom Rogan’s list of desired confrontations – and these just from the past few months.

    Clearly, he hasn’t learned the lesson of the disastrous Iraq imbroglio: to whit, that Western power has limits, and we’re up against them.

    • Tom Rogan

      I support tough diplomatic action (counter-Iran, Russia) and (military support-aviation/intelligence/logistics/advice (counter-ISIS). Burying your head in the sand is no prescription. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomrogan/100278062/the-need-for-multilateralist-humility/

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …so it’s join the islamofascists in Libya, and join the islamofascists in Syria, but once the islamofascists cross the (Sikes-Picot-fantasized) border into “Iraq”, they gotta be bombed, intelligenced, logistified and advised against… is that it, laddie?

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …by the way, does your mummy know you’re out this late?

          • Kennybhoy

            Ahem yer talking tae yersel auld yin…:-)

          • iaagg

            You OK man? I mean seriously.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              You still trolling this site, lad?

        • Roger Hudson

          I never supported fighting over the Sykes-Picot Kuwait border in 1990, look how that’s turned out.
          Like the Iraqi royals in ’58 ,we would have seen Saudi princes dragged through the streets by Rolls Royces, no 9/11, no ISIS, Kensington free from camels :lovely.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            You know what would have been the smart play in 1990? Force the Saudis and Kuwaiti gangsters to pay Sadaam the danegeld, in dribs and drabs, just to kick the can down the road. We may have avoided all this mess.

      • CraigStrachan

        So, tough diplomatic action against Iran, and military support for the Iranian-backed Maliki government of Iraq against ISIS? And of course ISIS is in turn backed by certain (Sunni, Gulf) elements you might be looking to for support in tough diplomatic action against Iran.

        And what about the implications for Syria? Isn’t action against ISIS helping Assad?

        Circles inside circles, and none of them can be squared, I fear. Behold what Bush & Blair have wrought!

        • Kennie

          It started soon after WW2, when the Americans set out to undermine British influence around the world, and particularly, around the Middle East.

        • iaagg

          You shifted the subject, a psyc ops ploy. Inefective.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …you’re not much for spelling and grammar, eh troll?

  • the viceroy’s gin

    Is there some particular reason you Speccie kids want to keep bringing this Nanny Review neocon nutter into the mix here? He really isn’t adding anything of value, other than continued saber rattling, is he?

    There may be aerospace experts who would be willing to use this platform to expound on the use of black boxes, and their analysis and interpretation, for example. There may be materials experts who can describe the signatures and traces left behind by missile strikes, and how these might be used to pick apart this incident. You know, useful stuff… stuff a serious publication would want discussed on its pages.

    Instead, because you Speccie teenagers are yourselves too ignorant and poorly educated to understand what such folk might discuss, you bring-in the nutters you do understand quite well, apparently. Sad. Very sad.

    • Kennybhoy

      This loon gie’s Neocons a bad name…

    • dado_trunking

      Ok, laddie – how could we make this *our* war?
      Cameron urgently needs one to secure a united K (Scotland’s not in the bag, you know) and our special R with the US might see itself reinforced if *we* dictated the agenda this time … does this contain enough nuts for you?

      • Kennybhoy

        You mean like the loose ones rattling aboot in your heid?

        • dado_trunking

          Well, yeah you know – you want it I give it to you, like.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        Can any other of you socialist nutters translate this gibberish?

    • Roger Hudson

      We know what missile shot it down, we need all the ATC data from the area to give context.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        How is it that “We know what missile shot it down”? Got any data to support that assertion?

        • pole

          he was probably meaning: “we know it was (ground to air) missile”. and I guess we know that, do we?

          • the viceroy’s gin

            Not definitively we don’t, unless the data has popped in the last few hours.

        • iaagg

          Separated nose section, shrapnel in the fuselage, complete destruction of the plane in air consistent all with a Buk fragmentation weapon.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            I don’t think you understand what you’re talking about. A frag weapon is like a shotgun shell, exploding at a set distance from the target and peppering the craft with small shot, and not direct contact with explosive charges that would be necessary to cause the “complete destruction” you’re jabbering about.

            • iaagg

              Maybe you need to go back to school. What do you think in meant, the plane vaporized? Take a reading comprehension course and a writing course laddy. Come back in ten years.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                Be gone, troll.

            • iaagg

              Here I will hold your hand and explain. Did you think I meant buckshot. LOL. Look maybe you will learn something. https://vine.co/v/M2pwBYeQ369

              • the viceroy’s gin

                I think you meant that you’re an ignorant internet troll, jammering pointlessly .

                • iaagg

                  No, keep insulting, you just look stupid.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Keep trolling, you’re just a troll, troll.

                • iaagg

                  You are either very young or very stupid. Pick one.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  You are either a troll or a troll. Pick one.

  • Smithersjones2013

    Here’s a tip for you Tom. If you want people in this country to take you seriously,I suggest when you link to your blog ensure that the first thing people see isn’t:

    If you’re finding your way to my blog via Fox News, thanks for watching!

    Because I can guarantee that 80% of readers in the UK will think you are a warmongering bloodlusting neocon T Party lunatic and the other 20% will perceive you as your common or garden Republican swivel-eyed nutter!

    Seriously Yank tells Europe what to do without any consideration of the consequences for Europe. Been there done that bought the T-Shirt (with a picture of Baghdad burning on it). No Thanks!

    • TheBuckStopsHere

      Nice one Smithersjones – you just made the 80% look like morons. Anyone who labels a “Neocon – T Party” movement as a singular entity clearly don’t understand US political ideology at all.

  • Hexhamgeezer

    One wonders what degree of input our clever chaps and chapettes at the FCO and ‘Baroness’ Ashton’s (don’t laugh, ‘External Action Service’) have had in the EU’s tilling of the Ukrainian soil. It hints that our once fit for purpose HUMINT is, like so much of the body politic, no longer fit for purpose.

    • Roger Hudson

      ‘External action Service’ sounds like the old Smersh or NKVD. Shouldn’t it be ‘diplomatic’ not ‘action’.

      • Hexhamgeezer

        But they do act – mainly by funnelling cash to likeminded anti-democrats and patronising up market whorehouses.

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