Coffee House

Exclusive: Senior Tory backbenchers to push Cameron further on Europe

18 July 2014

4:11 PM

18 July 2014

4:11 PM

Key eurosceptic MPs are planning to push David Cameron further on his plans for European reform next week, Coffee House has learned.

Leading members of a powerful group of right-wing Conservative MPs, who meet regularly to discuss strategy, will call on the Prime Minister to set out more detail on giving power back to Parliament and his plans for reform.

‘The ECHR isn’t enough,’ says one source. ‘We need to hear more detail from the Prime Minister and we will ask for that as soon as next week.’

[Alt-Text]


The precise wording of the demand – and how it will be delivered – are still being discussed, but the rebels are keen to avoid a repeat of Bernard Jenkin’s letter in January which demanded that Parliament be given the power to veto every aspect of EU law, but had less impact than hoped because its list of signatories turned out to be a bit of a mess and therefore easy for Downing Street to knock down. Other options than a letter, including an early day motion, are being considered.

The MPs believe their case will be reinforced by the presence of a number of angry eurosceptic Conservative MPs who have had a bad week in the reshuffle for one reason or another. Liam Fox and Owen Paterson are, according to many colleagues ‘close to blowing up’ after the former was offered a promotion below his capabilities and the latter was unceremoniously dumped from the department he loves and knows a great deal more about than most other Tories.

Few suspect that Paterson and Fox will blow up this side of the general election, but what their colleagues hope they’ll do is start making comments about the sorts of reforms that David Cameron should be aiming for. Fox already does this, but his power will increase now that he appears to have set his face against the government by refusing a job. Paterson is particularly key in this given the amount of contact that he had with the European Union. Neither man needs to blow up to have an impact as even quite gentle comments about what the government needs to do in a renegotiation can quite easily be read as them increasing the pressure.

Both men are ideally placed to lead the ‘Out’ camp in the 2017 referendum: before the reshuffle, colleagues had already identified Fox as the man to do this and he made no effort to bat it down when it was raised on the Andrew Marr Show. But Paterson does not have some of the baggage that has put a number of eurosceptics off Fox. Some think the latter is ‘tainted’ while being utterly furious that the former was sacked as Environment Secretary. Paterson’s views on Europe are well known and still best set out by James in this 2011 interview. He could also be a formidable leader of the ‘Out’ group. If either does end up in charge of that campaign, they will create the alternative centre of gravity in the party that some of their colleagues who dislike Cameron are hoping for. Both would certainly not try to stop that from happening after this week’s reshuffle.

Subscribe to The Spectator today for a quality of argument not found in any other publication. Get more Spectator for less – just £12 for 12 issues.


Show comments
  • John McEvoy

    Watch Windmill Dave wriggle. He loves the EU and wants to present the UK to it on a plate.

  • Bert3000

    Why is any non-entity who makes a noise about Europe always described here as a ‘senior backbencher’? It just reminds us how many MPs have decades long careers without doing anything at all of note.

  • iain paton mckie

    According to the FT Cameron’s choice for EU Council chief is Kinnock’s daughter-in-law who was done for tax irregularities. helle thorning-schmidt has also overseen, as Danish PM, an abuse of power scandal that has claimed the scalps of her justice minister and the head of the security service. How can our PM lay claim to anti-EU credentials when he is actively promoting this person?

  • derekemery

    Is it really possible to reform The EU boa constrictor so it does not tighten its coils around you every time you breathe?

  • http://batman-news.com roundhead

    Within the Conservative Party, the potential of practical opposition to our EU membership seems to depend on a reaction to being demoted by David Cameron. Practical opposition within UKIP is a matter of principle. People see the difference.

  • iain paton mckie

    On Wednesday 16th the EU announced that it was running out of cash. The website of the European Parliament reported: “EU budget funding for 2014 is
    running out, leaving bills unpaid and member states out of pocket. MEPs will
    discuss the shortfall with Commissioner Andris Piebalgs and the Italian
    Presidency of the Council at 15.00 on Wednesday. Parliament is calling on the
    Council to plug payment gaps for research and employment programmes (€587
    million), cohesion policy (€3.396 billion), Ukraine, Syrian refugees and other
    foreign policy instruments (€651 million) and fisheries (€106 million).”
    On the following day it was announced that this budgetary shortfall was to be made up by “own resources”, the EU’s way of saying that the member states are going to have to dig deep. This means that the UK is going to have to
    find another €600,000,000 right now, just so the EU can pay its bills, and we
    are only half way through the year.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      Let’s see if the Speccie kids actually illuminate this travesty, for once.

  • Bonkim

    Fox – not up to the required standard.

  • Lady Magdalene

    Fox would be a dreadful choice to lead the OUT campaign. He is tainted goods, thanks to the Werrity episode.
    Paterson might be suitable to lead the campaign within the Conservative Party but he simply isn’t high-profile enough to head a joint campaign which encompasses UKIP and the other OUT groupings.

  • jesseventura2

    Cameron is a weak leader like Tony the phony Blair.
    The Tories missed their chance by not backing David Davis but Paterson could make it when Cameron is dumped.
    A leader who can halt this muslim infestation and stand up for the British majority.

  • Chingford Man

    As King Lear might have put it:

    “I will do such things—

    What they are yet I know not, but they shall be
    The terrors of the earth.”

    Mark my words, these plastic “Eurosceptics” will soon be up on their hind legs at PMQs for Dave to stroke them.

  • dansmith17

    So a group of very important backbenchers are going demand Cameron do SOMETHING!!!

    We do not know what the SOMETHING is, or who the backbenchers are but they are very important and will demand SOMETHING.

    The problem is there are two definitions of sceptic, one group seems to want to change the relationship a bit but stay in, the other group still call themselves sceptics but they want out and they want out now and they should just leave and join UKIP.

    • Wuffo the Wonder Dog

      You really believe that there are some Tory MPs who want out of the EU? ?? ???

      Well, wonders never cease, do they?

      Do you really believe that any UKIP local association would want them?

  • Conway

    Paterson’s views on Europe are well known” His views may well be well known, but less well known is his pro-EU voting record.

    • Wuffo the Wonder Dog

      Everyone of them has nodded through each and every directive/law/hint from Brussels without a word against, not even a raised eyebrow.

  • The Masked Marvel

    This had better not be why Cameron is making Gove chief whip.

  • Roger Hudson

    Why put it off to 2017, next year in May is just fine.

    • Alexsandr

      sept 2014 will do me

  • BarkingAtTreehuggers

    Oh how we love this tittle-tattle. A ‘powerful group’ is pushing Dave into the abyss of certain defeat following defeat following yet another … defeat.
    Anyone ever wondered how many of those power rangers are latent UKIP voters/supporters/candidates? None? Well there we have it – hot air enough to keep the lights switched on until the end of days – that’s 285 days approx.

    • Colonel Mustard

      I do wonder how many of the strangely worded comments on this blog are bought and paid for by the EU. You would have thought they’d get native speakers for their little charade.

      • Alexsandr

        google translate does give weird results.

        • BarkingAtTreehuggers

          Google translate is for muppets.
          On se lève …

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …yes, you and your army of sockpuppets are jealous of your muppet cousins, apparently.

  • Terry Field

    Unlike many in these columns, I think the Britain leaving Europe will be a real disaster for the country – but Cameron is a prisoner of his party – and he will take the UK out now,
    He is a disaster – and I am a convinced Tory, but pro EU for many reasons.

    • global city

      Would you outline the main areas that you see causing a disaster if the EU leaves the EU?

      • Kerr Mudgeon

        I think that the EU leaving the EU, as you suggest, would be an ideal scenario.

        • global city

          LoL! Well spotted.

          What makes it worse is I have just had to correct the exact same mistake that I made in a post higher up!

      • Terry Field

        Yes, certainly.
        In a decade or two Europe will have integrated and homogenised its disparate economies to the point where the entity clearly works well. Britain will be outside this pan-Europeanc Christian cultural powerhouse – I know it is not that now – and the world with the great powers confronting the by then truly dreadful resource shortages will be more hostile to Britain than the country now imagines.
        The immense economic, environmental and racial migratory pressures that will develop over the decades will be just as much of a threat to Britain – maybe more so – outside the EU than in it.
        Unlike the UKIPers I love the depth of cultural life seen in Europe over the last millennia, and feel sad the barriers erected by autocrats and wars are to be re-erected.
        I left England in sadness at its hopeless decline and putrid degeneration; I was right to go, judging by the continued disaster – but that is ALL home grown.
        As for the mean-ness regarding migration, it simply re-confirms my dislike for this fascistic potentially violent and intolerant tendency all too apparent in so many aspects of current British socio-political thinking.
        It is violently and ruthlessly unequal, it causes people to ‘feed’ off each other economically, and it has to be said, this britain is becoming a very nasty place indeed – and a shame on the hero generation who saved it.
        I do not care if local folk are offended – indeed it is good if they are – they deserve to be.
        The EU is a very great enterprise – the construction of Christian European values in a seamless whole, albeit now without God at the level of the State, and that is no bad thing. The petty details of a pothole caused by an confluence of severe economic recession coisiding with borders opening in no way detracts form the splendour of the undertaking.
        I visit the war cemeteries across Europe and weep bitter tears for the dead children in uniform the paedophile nations murdered.
        That was real paedophilia – the love of killing ones own offspring on a vast scale.
        This continent is drenched in blood, as is Britain in those great continental wars.
        To replace that with co-operative endeavour and free personal interchange of peoples is a great hope for the future.
        British contemporary mean-mindedness is certainly not.

        • global city

          It is the EU model that is so shamefully destructive of all of those things you list as desirable. It comes straight from that intellectual trough that spawned the autocratic regimes of the 30s’, but took on a gloss as something oppositional to them, when it never has been.

          The very notion of benign rule and control by experts and ‘technocrats’ demands the same structures and eventual repression of any other single ideal and authority.

          Farage, to give him credit has repeatedly said that we should cooperate closely amongst the national democracies of Europe, but that is the very antithesis to the EU plan. We do not need central control in order to ease the venom from European society…. what we need are properly functioning democracies (I include the UK in that)

          • Terry Field

            This simple – if the continent does not engage in much more real democracy, then the enterprise will fail and it will deserve to. You are wrong about the damage done in Britain – it is almost entirely home-generated,

        • Blindsideflanker

          You are a xenophobic EU-opean , you suggest that we should accept our culture and nation being bureaucratically homogenised away for the EU cause, but at the same time rely on the EU to protect us from the Worlds hordes at the EU border. To many of us being ethnically and culturally cleansed by the EU is no different to being ethnically and culturally cleansed by any other means.

          But the difference we have to where we should place the border aside, you and your EU fanatical dream pose a much greater threat to us and the other countries of Europe.

          Europe’s enlightenment didn’t happen in a bureaucratically homogenised state, The bureaucratically homogenised empire nearest to Europe was the Ottomans, and they were going down hill fast, Europe was an area of competing, fractious, sometimes warring nations who were leap frogging each other as they embraced change, both politically and technologically, those that didn’t got left behind, but there was always the example for them set by others who were advancing and carrying the torch of progress.

          The EU is a bureaucratic block to change, in attempting to homogenise everything , we have under EU rule, lost the ability to renew our societies, to meet the new challenges we face, and have lost the diversity that was the strength of Europe, because the new ideas are crushed under the weight of bureaucratic inertia.

          The EU rather than being a future is a dead end, It has fossilised our progress by stunting our ability to adapt and change, and unless we can throw off this dead hand, we will have no more future than the dinosaurs had.

          • Terry Field

            My goodness you show yourself for what you are; a little englander, local, small-minded, petty, horizon as broad as a baked-bean can, full of fear and ignorance. You have one word in your small vocabulary -‘bureaucratically’ – there are millions of little ex-filing clerks and metal-grinders like you.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              That’s ironic, because you seem something of a caricature yourself, lad.

        • John McEvoy

          ‘Powerhouse’
          .
          Like Greece? ROFLMAO

          • Terry Field

            What a truly cretinous comment – you were clearly kicked out of the local comp at 15 and graduated to grave-digging

  • the viceroy’s gin

    That cartoon is figuratively accurate. Poor Dave is afraid of his own shadow, let alone a fluttering EUSSR flag.

    • southerner

      With good reason. Only 10 more months of this gutless buffoon to go.

      • Peter Stroud

        Would you prefer the ugly, gutless buffoon on the opposite benches?

        • southerner

          On all the major issues there isn’t a cigarette paper between them. That’s why the current un-conservative Tory party needs destroying. We’ve had decades now of left wing socialist nonsense from parties of all colours.

          • Terry Field

            No – therre is a huge social, economic, cultural gulf – the future needs to be small state, no socialism, competitive private economy, unemployed proles forced to work or starve pour encourager les autres.
            A world of difference

            • southerner

              Well you won’t get any of that from the socialist Camerloons.

              • Terry Field

                As above

            • global city

              I agree Terry, but the Tories would never give us those things.

              • Terry Field

                No I agree they won’t – I entirely gave up on England’s politics some years ago, and left.
                I certainly made the correct decision.
                England is, sadly, finished as a serious country of great achievement, as it so spectacularly used to be.
                It is a decline so precipitous as to make one weep; all I see is comedic absurdities vying for ‘power’ – although there now is none to be had in such an empty husk.
                Brown, Blair, Major, Cameron, Clegg, Milliband, Balls – my God, how is it possible that such people could approach any place of authority in a serious country?
                Of course they could not – for England is now not a serious country of real endeavour.
                I do not like to spend too much time thinking about it – I engage in these columns for personal amusement, no real sense of involvement. It is a foreign country now, and very odd. Not a little nasty as well.
                Elgar at the RAH tonight – that England was wonderful; this one is rotten.
                Most sad.

                • Wessex Man

                  What’s sad is that you’ve given up, after the GE next year, we will find that the lib/dums are gone, labour holding less seats than now and Milband gone and the Tories having got shot of Cameloon will do a deal with UKip on the understanding that the referendum is held as soon as possible.

                • http://google.co.eu Sentinel

                  Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds as though you are expecting UKIP to win tens of seats – despite having failed to win a single by-election.

          • moggie79

            Its statements like that that make me loathe UKIP and Im not even pro European

            • southerner

              Who mentioned UKIP? Not me.

              • Wuffo the Wonder Dog

                He’s sensitive. He imagined it. He probably dreams that UKIP is a dragon that lives under his bed and is going to come after him.

        • Kitty MLB

          What do you suppose the chances are of the
          electorate allowing those who caused our economic firestorm.Who wrecked the foundations of our country, who wrecked our
          education system etc, having the matches back
          to resume where they left off?

          • Terry Field

            It is all but guaranteed – the massive slobocracy is dominant in the hollowed-out politic.

          • AtMyDeskToday

            The chances are unfortunately quite high if you listen to a wide range of opinion in the real world outside of these pages. My wife’s late brother-in-law often voiced his committed socialist views, and voted that way, but took as his only paper the Daily Mail and was a staunch royalist. I’m certain he had no idea at all what Labour stood for.

          • Conway

            Thanks to the LDs reneging on the boundary changes Labour has an inbuilt advantage. Given that Dave has alienated his core vote (and failed to win over those for whom he ditched his traditional supporters), I’d say Dave has pretty much guaranteed a Labour victory, but I don’t think they will get it all their own way. Their majority may be small or there may be a hung Parliament. 2015 is a hard election to call because past experience is nothing to go by. UKIP is a game changer and it will be the returning voters/previous non-voters who will be most influential, I think.

            • Wuffo the Wonder Dog

              If Cameron had wanted to bring in the needed boundary changes all he needed to do was to bring a bill before the house. If the LibDems and/or Labour had opposed it they would have been labelled as anti-democratic and denying the public’s right to fair elections in the election forced by them bringing him down.

              But he didn’t want to, did he?

        • Mynydd

          Gutless buffoon, the man who stood up and called out News International, and then took on the Daily Mail, when all about him aid you must not take on the right wing media, they will hang you out to dry. Result the News of the World are no longer with us to hang an one out to dry

    • BarkingAtTreehuggers

      high five, dude. we’re a team. wouldn’t you know it.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        Can any other of you socialist nutters translate this nutter’s gibberish?

        • Terry Field

          Even his gin is pink

        • Benedict

          My interpretation would be that this is a reference to Cameron meeting Juncker the other day. They gave one another a ‘high five’.
          That shows that they are a team.
          Cameron’s wings have been clipped [= he is now ineffective].
          Juncker did it.

          So he is saying that Cameron is already a broken reed.
          I would tend to agree with that.

    • Smithersjones2013

      Why do you think Cameron sold Smith Square (the scene of Thatcher’s victories) to Brussels?

  • global city

    All of the true Euroseptics should poison the Cameron well by persistently discussing the aspects of EU membership that are dangerous to the EU that simply MUST be red lines for Cameron’s ‘renegotiation’. This will serve a number of purposes. It will educate people bout the EU’s structures and the reach it has that most people just do not appreciate, it will also set the bar so high that Cameron just couldn’t try to fob the country off as Wilson managed to do. It would finally help to distinguish those who are genuinely sceptical or just anti EU from those who pretend to be but have no real intention of leaving.

    • misomiso

      It should ALL be about the economy, and they should include arguments from the ‘left’. So
      Europe is shrinking but the world is growing Amazon had £4 bil in revenue last year, and only paid £4 mil in tax because its registered in Luxembourg.

      Big companies should be UK tax not tax haven tax.

      • Conway

        There are more things than the economy, although Europe is shrinking and the rest of the world is growing. More important, in my view, is the supremacy of European corpus juris over Common Law and the loss of habeas corpus. Being in the EU is seriously bad for our freedom.

        • misomiso

          All the people who agree with you are the ones that would vote to leave anyway.

          To win the referendum we need to reach out to people who dont worry about Legal issues and worry about their jobs and the economy.

          IMO

          • Conway

            Well they will worry about their jobs if they are competing with a surplus of labour that will drive down wages. Freedom is more than a “legal issue”. It’s about the rights of the individual versus the rights of the state. The continental system enshrines the rights of the state. Everything being forbidden except what the state allows is a pretty fundamental change to our way of life, I’d say.

          • global city

            I agree. The legal consequences though are massive, as they run right through all of our constitutional and legal norms, which most people do not appreciate.

            A part of the process of engagement will have to be educational.

  • jamesbarn

    Having looked at the polls over the last few months I confess to having no faith in them whatsoever.
    Each I fear have a tendency to favour their own particular bias and some do not even prompt UKIP even though the consistently poll more than the Libdems. Furthermore they try to extrapolate, weigh and analyse their results to forecast events purely on the basis of the answers obtained from strangers via the telephone or the Internet. There is also an unsubstantiated belief that people who say or in fact do vote for the Libdems or UKIP in the EU elections next month will change their allegiance to Tory or Labour in the GE in 2015. The Tories seem to think that everyone will vote for them just to keep Labour out when in fact their record of incompetence and sleaze as well as broken promises is obvious to us all. The Labour party is together with UKIP ridiculed and smeared on a daily basis by all forms of the media and blatant lies are told of both.
    Be that as it may perhaps the greatest influence on public opinion that has come to the fore over the last couple of years is the one media that cannot be controlled by any party and that is the Internet. Claim and counter claim can and is now subjected to great scrutiny and access to facts previously suppressed is now readily available and published daily. Video clips of politicians making pre election promises they have not the slightest intention of keeping are readily available on face book and reappear in comments sections of newspapers and political websites like Guido Fawks and Conhome. In truth I believe that the next GE is totally unpredictable and the polls though gendering debate tell us nothing of significance
    So lets have a few facts
    1) The EU parliament will ignore ALL decent and carry on pushing their super state undemocratic agenda.
    2) There will be NO meaningful renegotiations without Cameron invoking Article 50 which is required by members who intend to leave the EU
    3) Therefore any attempt to renegotiate without Article 50 being invoked will be brushed aside.
    4) Cameron has already said that he will not leave the EU and will not invoke Article 50 therefore he will be either totally ignored or offered miniscule concessions which he will try to con the British public with as did Harold Wilson
    5) However we must not underestimate the vulnerability of Tory and Labour MPs whose careers could and may well come to an abrupt end at the next election as have the careers of many long standing MEPs in the Euros.
    6) Faced with the prospect of unemployment there is a distinct possibility that some will change allegiance to UKIP
    7) Failing that happening the Tory party will split asunder. The Liberals are already at this stage.
    8) If as seems likely UKIP poll more than 10% many marginal seats will be lost by their incumbent MPs

    Interesting times ahead

    • Conway

      There is only one poll that counts and that’s the one that takes place in the polling station.

      • Wuffo the Wonder Dog

        Or in the local LibDem office or a local mosque, where busy little hands are filling in postal votes.

        • will91

          That’s what happened in ‘Minaret Hamlets’. Ahhhh celebrate diversity!!

    • jesseventura2

      Do labour need to be smeared given the faces and sounds of Bean and Balls up?

    • Lady Magdalene

      I mostly agree. However, although there is a lot more information available on the internet to discredit lying politicians, only those really interested in politics and current affairs accesses it. The vast majority of the electorate is oblivious.
      Twitter and Facebook are having a huge impact because the electoral Blob IS engaged with them.

  • misomiso

    Freedom of movement guys!

    But seriously, if the right wants to stay in Europe, pick Fox or Patterson to lead. What they never learn is that the public do not see these people the way they see each other. Nothing will make the country vote ‘In’ more than having a Tory rightwinger lead the campaign.

    Patterson should not get involved in this. Instead he should be ULTRA loyal till the election, never putting a foot wrong and actively supporting the government and Liz Truss, not even letting any sunlight between him and the government on any policy. that will give him a lot more credibility after the election.

    if the right wants to leave the EU, from now until 2017 all they have to do is bang on about the economic benefits of leaving. The Public always ultimately votes with their wallet.

    • Andy

      The EU is gradually splitting in two because of the Euro. If they wish to save the bloody thing, and God knows why, they will need to integrate much more fiscally etc. None of the countries who are not in the Euro will do this, so you have a two part EU. That means we have a chance to reform it. We should at least try, but I think it will be a waste of time, so then we leave.

      • dansmith17

        Of the countries that are not in most will probably join over a 10 year timetable unless as is still possible the whole thing collapses.

        Of the 10 countries which joined in 2004 by January 7 will be in the Euro. The other 3 are in theory committed to joining but want to hold back till 2020, if the Euro is still around in that timescale they will join. (Poland, Hungary, Czech republic). Sweden and Denmark, the political establishment want to join, if they think they can win a referendum they will go for it.

        An out of Euro group made up of 5 Eastern Europeans who we insult on a daily basis talking about immigration and then Sweden and Denmark is not going to work.

      • Conway

        You don’t seem to understand that the EU has no mechanism for reforming. It has no reverse gear; it is in full throttle “USE” mode. The only reforms will be in favour of ever closer union. I’m surprised you don’t realise that we have given it 41 years of trying to reform it to get the sort of EU we want and have not succeeded once. How much longer do you want to give it? Until we’ve had to join the euro and have become the Transmanche region of the USE?

        • Andy

          My personal view is that we should leave and leave now. I regard the whole EU project as a Fascist creation and I want no part of it.

          I understand why politicians such as Heath were so desperate to join the ‘Common Market’, but I feel they drew the wrong conclusions for the wrong reasons – ditto Ken Clarke. I think Lady Thatcher realised this too late really in her premiership.

          Further I think that the political class love the strutting on a big stage syndrome. A couple of years ago I went to a luncheon party at a country house. One of the guests was a very pro-EU MEP. He simply could not understand why some of us oppose this project – he had gone completely ‘native’. Most politicians once they gain power love the summits and all that crap and are drawn in to this spiders web and basically go ‘native’. But as I remarked to the MEP if he was so sure of his case seek the consent of the people. He wasn’t so keen on that idea. Can’t imagine why.

      • HookesLaw

        Thats a fair point, the EU is changing, and its nice to see at least one point on here founded in reality. And if we elect a tory government we will get those negotioations and a referendum.
        One of the ironies of this post is that we read about these thick tory backbenchers talking about who will lead the OUT campaign whilst at the same time engaging in activity aimed at making sure the referendum is likely never to happen in the first place.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …if it’s an OUT you want, lad, suggest you not split the UKIP vote.

          • Wessex Man

            Hooky will be carrying the banners to remain in the EU, like his master he will lie and lie for all he’s worth just to see his master get another five years to ruin the country!

    • global city

      The economic issues should be completely settled (demolished), as they are the only weapon that the europhiles have. Remove that and the europhiles will have to argue their case from the one they have always really supported, that is the case for subsuming the UK under EU governance and removing the democratic function that controls our law makers.

      They could never win that one.

      • Conway

        They can’t win the economic argument, either, because the figures don’t add up. Clegg proved that there is no positive case for staying in the EU because he completely failed to make one when he had the chance.

        • global city

          That’s precisely what I mean. We all know the tired old BS they will spew, so the counter statistics should be marshalled and their arguments completely demolished well before any referendum debate even starts.

          That would leave the europhiles having to make the case during the referendum debate period from an honest standpoint for once, the weird sovereignty bleeding one that sees our democracy handed over to anti-democratic technocrats within a anon-accountable framework of governance.

          They would die on their feet making that case….and we’d all be free.

          We also need a glossary of weasel words and statements europhiles use to both make their false case for membership as well as the ones they used to decieve what their opponents mean and the consequences of leaving. I mean things like ‘isolation’, ‘no influence’ ,catastrophic’…..etc.

    • Conway

      I hope Paterson follows your advice; he’s my MP and I, among others, will be working to put him on the dole queue come next May! I can’t think of any better way to make him even more unpopular than he is up here.

  • Gizzard Puke

    Every opinion poll shows the majority are not pro-EU .

    • telemachus

      Come the potential reality it will be very different
      Folk do not like change
      Further as the Balls-Burnham regime gets in there and fully engaged there will be active enthusiasm

      • Kitty MLB

        Not a chance. The dogs of hades are pulling upon
        their chains as those two await their fate.

        I shall not take the bait as you stand there with your
        wooden spoon stirring mischief..hoping for a certain
        response..just remember Labour will face their fate.

        • telemachus

          You as much as I are yearning for fair economic management rather than Osborne who fancies himself now on a bigger stage demonstrated by his French friend Christine

          I remember that a sage contemporary politician coined the phrase “not so much the Wolf of Wall Street but the Dunce of Downing Street”

      • JoshuaCzajkowski

        Hahaha

      • Colonel Mustard

        More likely that IF the Balls-Burnham “regime” “gets in there” and “fully engaged” there will be active rebellion. IF you get in it will be by a whisker and beaucoup gerrymandering, and you might have to climb in bed with the Illiberal Undemocrats, so don’t be under any delusion that you will be popular with the whole population.

        The harder you push the greater resistance will grow and the more you will be hated.

        • telemachus

          We know that UKIP will deliver the 43 Tory marginal so that we do not have to rely on the Grimond rump

          • Colonel Mustard

            You know nothing. A week is a long time in politics.

            You do understand what HUBRIS is?

            • Inverted Meniscus

              He thinks Hubris is a German beer.

          • Terry Field

            Was Grimod’s rump a sexual matter. Is it being investigated if it was?
            We need to rapidly get to the bottom of this rump.

            • telemachus

              Grimod I agree needs to be looked at by the Operation Yewtree team
              *
              However Jo Grimond’s pathetic group of 6 Liberal MP’s formed a rump of which Clegg might be envious in 2015

              • Terry Field

                I was joking idiot. This bizarre retrospective puritanism is quite fantastic.
                I hope you have tied a knot in your wondering willy.

                • telemachus

                  I think we all were (joking)
                  What on earth has Puritanism to do with the drive to return to reasonable caring government

                • Wessex Man

                  how can he do that when he hasn’t got one?

            • gelert

              As did Jeremy Thorpe after he succeeded “Grimod”.

      • Alexsandr

        balls. author of the useless tripartite regulation and the overspend
        burnham – should be in jail for Stafford
        the dromeys, paedophole apologists
        brown -sold our gold at rock bottom and raided our pensions
        and the lot of the useless tribe brought the misery of unlimited immigration

        what a shower. Totally unfit to govern.

        • jesseventura2

          The labour vermin should never be allowed to enter downing street.
          Where are the charges against the lying traitorous dogs?

          • Iain Hill

            Try a tea biscuit?

      • gelert

        Throw in Yvette for a little troilism.

        • jesseventura2

          Like Ed too Butch?

    • HookesLaw
    • Lady Magdalene

      Agreed. I am a UKIP supporter and I want out. But I recognise that although the majority are not pro-EU, that doesn’t necessarily mean they want to leave.
      The polls indicate that what a majority would like is to remain in a substantially reformed EU … which is what Cameron is “offering” them in order to get re-elected.
      It is only after the election (if he wins) that it will become clear to people who aren’t really interested in politics that a substantially reformed EU is not possible and the choice is still IN or OUT.

      • global city

        many want to stay in because they have been suckered by a false premise and scary stories about job losses. Most do not also understand just how much sovereignty has been ceded and how these transfers build exponentially in the direction of the Commission.

        • http://google.co.eu Sentinel

          Isn’t it because those campaigning for Brexit have failed to set out the detailed particulars of what their lives would be like outside the EU?

          Just saying we would enter a free trade paradise doesn’t seem to be cutting the mustard (sorry, Colonel). I think businesses need to know how their sales would be affected – e.g. tariffs and perhaps more importantly any additional burdens such as form filling.

          • global city

            Forgive me, but demanding that sort of detail is idiotic. You can only go with the broad sweep, just as you only can with the prospect of remaining inside the EU.

            I say that Faraage (and all the other ‘outers’) do not have crystal balls… do you say that the ‘innies’ DO?

            Stating how we would not be bound by the CET, how what regulations affected our industry would be decided here, by those we will have elected (and if they piss it up, remove them and ditch the offending laws and/or regulations)

            Outlining how tariffs work and why the EU would not be inclined to start a trade war with the UK (which is what is inferred by these millions of job losses, etc). Most importantly people would know that, good or bad, future choices and direction will be in our own hands. Independent countries thrive all over the world, loads of them actually prosper commercially too, would you not agree?

            To business it could be said, your European export markets will not be affected. One additional reason for this is that the Single market doesn’t actually work very well.

            Lastly the whole inward investment moving to the continent lie has been well proven to be, well, er, a lie.

            Innies and outies – perhaps we should call the EU dispute the bellybutton wars?

          • ButcombeMan

            Trade with the EU after Brexit , ( in the absence of formal trade agreement which would be in the interests of remaing EU), would be under WTO rules.
            Form filling would be little different to rxporting now to non EU members.

            In fact, after an Article 50 declaration there would be two years for a formal trade agreement to be reached. Many Member States would have good reason to support a trade agreement with the UK so thre is n8 reason to think the the UK could not achieve something suitable. We are a huge and rich market.

    • http://google.co.eu Sentinel

      Curiously, in spite of UKIP’s surge (apparently cresting at the European elections) support for remaining in the EU has risen:

      “YouGov’s latest poll for The Sun finds an eight point lead for those who want Britain to remain in the European Union, the largest lead recorded since YouGov first asked the question in September 2010. 44% would now vote to stay in the Union, while 36% would vote to leave.” – June 2014
      http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/06/17/eu-referendum-record-lead/

      “42% of people would vote to stay in the European Union, 36% would vote to leave” – March 2014
      http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/03/26/eu-referendum-highest-lead-two-years/

  • telemachus

    Bluster
    Of no consequence in any event
    Indeed it may help the forces of reason
    Joe public, in contradistinction to Speccie and DT readers, really cares not a fig for the Euro debate but has a vague sense of unease at the bellicose withdrawal rants which are co-identified with Toryism( they understand that UKIP can and will deliver nothing)
    *
    When May 2015 comes round we will see a major triumph for reason and the bluster will then rip the Tories apart, giving us reasonable caring government into the roaring again twenties

    • Wessex Man

      You are as always a slimy lying two bit commie outpost for the EUSSR, I advise all people who read your contributions to go and wash the hands afterwards and bathe their eyes, you Stalinist!

    • global city

      Saving the world from ‘global warming’ is so far down peoples’ list of priorities that it should never pass a politician’s lips then.

      • Terry Field

        Nobody will do anything significant to save our children and grandchildren from death from the effects of hellish climate change.

        • global city

          If that is the way that climate is going then there is nothing that we can do, least of all trying to cut the amount of CO2 we put into the atmosphere, as we know this has no effect what so ever.

          In fact, the best that we can do for future generations is to resist the calls to deindustrialise and reject material improvement on the alter of Gaia

          • Terry Field

            You clearly have no regard for the serious danger of methane release on a catastrophic scale should temperatures rise as predicted. I am too old to be killed by it, but the children and grandchildren are not.

            • Conway

              If CO2 was such a problem you should be insisting that no more trees are cut down, no more hedges are removed and no more building takes place on green fields. In addition the money saved from no longer paying child benefit for more than two children should be used to encourage everybody who has a garden to plant at least one tree. Why? Check out the formula for photosynthesis and also research urban heat islands.

            • HookesLaw

              There has been no global warming for 18 years. There is no danger of the release of methane on a catastrophic scale as you imply. It may well be quite wrong to say methane is a greenhouse gas at all.
              The greenhouse gas theory says that emission of infrared radiation from
              the Earth is absorbed by certain gases in the atmosphere, which heats
              them up. For this to happen, the wavelengths emitted by the Earth can only be absorbed by a gas with a
              broad swath peaking at the same wavelength.
              The champion
              absorber is water vapor. A minor absorber is carbon dioxide at 13
              µ absorbs, but its major peak at 4 µ does not. The major peak of methane is too far away from Earth’s emission to matte.
              http://www.climatechangedispatch.com/methane-mythology.html

              • HookesLaw

                And melting perma frost – if it ever does is no daner either
                ‘Countering a widely-held view that thawing permafrost
                accelerates atmospheric warming, a study published this week in the scientific journal Nature suggests arctic thermokarst lakes are ‘net climate coolers’ when observed over longer, millennial, time scales.’
                http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/07/18/a-flip-flop-on-arctic-permafrost-thaws-actually-a-net-cooling-rather-than-a-warming/#more-113194

                • http://google.co.eu Sentinel

                  “Willard Anthony Watts (Anthony Watts) is a blogger, weathercaster and non-scientist, paid AGW denier who runs the wattsupwiththat.com. He does not have a university qualification and has no climate credentials other than being a radio weather announcer. His website is parodied and debunked at the website wottsupwiththat.com Watts is on the payroll of the Heartland Institute, which itself is funded by polluting industries.”

                  http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Anthony_Watts

              • the viceroy’s gin

                Hmmmmm, that’s not what Call Me Dave and the rest of you envirowhacko Camerluvvies are saying, laddie.

              • Terry Field

                Your first sentence is a simple, straightforward, unencumbered lie.
                All else you have written is a pile of science denying codswallop. Your cod science observation about water vapour flies in the face lf known science in respect of cloud formation.
                You are an ignorant person, full of mediocre inadequacy, Thank you for showing your crass ignorance to the world.
                You are probably a car park attendant in real life.

                • fubarroso

                  No it isn’t a lie. Even the UEA’s Prof Jones finally admitted it, but only after ClimateGate and the “hide the decline” meme became public knowledge.

              • http://google.co.eu Sentinel
    • ButcombeMan

      Joe public IS, MASSIVELY concerned, about open ended uncontrolled immigration and the overwhelming of UK public services.

      Joe public IS concerned about too much or more particularly too rapid a change to the fabric and culture of Britain.

      Joe public IS concerned about Red Ed and Ed Balls, they do not look like a team, competent to lead and to manage the economy.

      Joe public still remembers “The Big Brown Mess”.

      Joe public is truly worried about struggling hard working families, not especially rich families, paying even more tax under Labour.

      Labour have a huge economic credibility problem, aggravated by the presence of Balls.

      • Colonel Mustard

        The BBC ran a rather silly propaganda piece on immigration “gain or drain” the night before last, interviewing all the usual suspects but they must have been disconcerted by that very fine and articulate Sikh lady who wasn’t playing their game at all. It was more interesting what she didn’t say about the Somali muslim than what she did but his refusal to enter her temple or participate in her charity activity spoke volumes.

        • telemachus

          It is said that Emma Willis regrets this screening

          • Colonel Mustard

            This has nothing to do with you. Your intervention is unwanted and has nothing to do with my comment.

            • telemachus

              Ms Willis has certainly regretted it, probably because of the fodder it gives to dirtballs

              • Colonel Mustard

                I’m not referring to your Labour party gossip and hearsay about Willis who only commissioned the programme, still less your nasty attempted smear but to the very fine and articulate Sikh lady who appeared in it and who gave her views. I expect you would horrify her and she would recoil at your poison.

      • telemachus

        Joe public does not even understand what the fuss is
        But as soon as a referendum is properly discussed they will as always vote for the status quo

        • ButcombeMan

          Your extreme left-wing contempt, for your fellow man, speaks volumes.

          • Andy

            Fascists are always like him.

          • telemachus

            FFS
            It is the concern for our fellow man that motivates our team

            • Colonel Mustard

              That’s just what you say and you think it gives you a free pass. What you actually do and the consequences bring misery to your fellow man.

              Unless and until you get that into your collective head and are prepared to admit to your mistakes, failings and crimes this country will continue its decline.

            • girondas2

              “It is the concern for our fellow man that motivates our team”

              Iraq demonstrated that you don’t give a damn about your fellow man, you sanctimonious old fraud.

          • Alexsandr

            ignore the (anagram of newark) he does not believe in democracy either.

    • girondas2

      “the forces of reason”!
      You old windbag.
      ,

Close