Coffee House

A disunited kingdom would be a mess – it needs to be kept together

3 July 2014

5:46 PM

3 July 2014

5:46 PM

If Scotland did leave, it would be a disaster for the rump UK that would be left behind, I argue in the magazine this week. We would go from Great Britain to little Britain. Every time the Prime Minister of the rUK raised his voice on the world stage, he would be met by a mocking chorus of ‘you couldn’t even keep your own country together’.

Beyond this, there are the slew of practical problems that Scottish independence would raise. Where would Trident be based? In the best case scenario you would end up with the submarines in Devon while the actual nuclear weapons were stored three hours’ drive away in Berskhire. In the worst case scenario, the successor state would either have to unilaterally disarm or ask the French to store the weapons for it.

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The danger is that Britain is being lost in the same way as it gained the Empire: in a fit of absence of mind. If Scottish independence is defeated this September, then we are going to have to learn how to talk about Britishness again; how to foster a sense of national identity. If this isn’t done, then the Scottish referendum will be the start of the matter not the end of it.

The Union is the most successful marriage of nations in history. It is beyond time to start making the case for it and the benefits it brings to all its constituent parts. ​

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Show comments
  • Wingman2020

    Westminster doesn’t work for the regions of the UK, including Scotland.

    It is time for 8.4% of the population of United Kingdom, to look after their own affairs.

    It’s really that simple.

    • Wessex Man

      totally agree, now if there’s anything anything at all that we can do to persuade the Scots to vote yes just let us know.

    • Terry Field

      No; Westminster – our parliament – your parliament works well and humanely for all of Britain. The new appearance of London as a world supercity is changing the points of generation of wealth, but no other country does it better.
      Your lies and silly phrases should be challenged and defeated.
      No, it is NO time for the people of the north to leave, any more than it would be for the Isles north of you.
      We in the south tolerate socialist parasite governments on the basis of the phalanx of socialist placemen who come from the northern boreal. But you do not hear us demanding independence from the Land of the Dram and Stuffed Sheep’s Stomach.

  • Tamas Marcuis

    A senior advisor on defense to the US State Dept said that the UK had to make its mind up, to be a nuclear power or a conventional power, because it couldn’t be both. Others have talked about a British military that has been hollowed out in order that Trident could continue. Poor wages and living conditions for servicemen and their families, substandard equipment that has often left US personell shocked at the comparison, storehouses full of out of date supplies that are only discovered to have been useless when the boxes were opened in Iraq leaving British medics begging from Americans (medical supplies were marked as having been produced for the Korean War), ad infinitum. The Americans think the UK should focus on conventional weapons, they have enough nuclear ones. Compare Russia’s arsenal of some 8,000 with 1200 operational, to the UK’s 120 (yes 120!) with only 16 operational at any one time. It’s unlikely the UK’s Trident would even get through Russia’s missile screen, whereas they could turn this island into black glass.
    Britain is NOT a world power. While it tries to be one it stops itself from being even a regional power and effectively leaves itself following America’s foreign policy. Look at how Cameron was treated by Putin, China and now the rest of the EU. Is that what real world influence looks like? In the previous administration the Robin Cook the Foriegn Secretary was laughed out of India for trying to “advise” them on relations Pakistan and China. Does that sound like Westminster even knows it’s living a historical fantasy thats damaging the UK and has continued to herd Scots to independence.
    So this article suggest that somehow forcibly maintaining a union with the Scots through the intimidation and propaganda seen in recent years with the continued possestion of Trident will somehow make foriegn leaders that already ridicule the UK suddenly respect the UK. This all sounds like a UKIP fantasy of the 1940’s and 50’s when the world population a thrid ‘s and India and China struggled to make bicylcles.

    • Wessex Man

      read the entire comment mostly agreed with you except no Englshman or woman would try to intimidate you or use propaganda or bullying to keep Scotland int this Union. Has it never occured to the Scots that we don’t want it either and that we know we don’t need these biliions wasted on Trident?

      As for the Yanks, there never has been a special relationship and never was, just dopey PMs doing their dirty work for them.

  • Terence Wilkinson

    Dear oh dear. I thought that we were past this alarmist nonsense after the great panic if a few months ago. To put it bluntly James there is no momentum for independence. The poll lead for a No vote has been consistently well ahead if the Yes and seems to be widening. Meanwhile the Yes campaign has been exposed, at least in the Scottish media, as intellectually bankrupt. Meanwhile the London based media seem to be reporting some fantasy Brigadoon campaign. Let me end with a plea to the London: please, please, please check your facts before writing alarmist nonsense.

    • terregles2

      Which part of Scotland do you live in Terence.?

      • Inverted Meniscus

        Probably the real Scotland and not the fantasy version of your cybernat imagination.

    • Inverted Meniscus

      Well said Terence and if you could just arrange to clear this site of cybernat nutters we would all be happy.

    • Fergus Pickering

      But alarmist nonsense is what journos do.

  • Torybushhug

    Plenty of very small nations are highly successful, from Singapore to Norway, what is this obsession with size?
    I’m a big Englander with confidence in my fellow citizens, all this negative cowardly bitter together stuff is a nonsense.

  • Alexsandr

    The funding of Scotland, Wales and NI needs sorting out. The Barnett formula needs revisiting

    I have just been in wales and all the roads
    there are beautifully maintained- even very minor roads -like the
    Llanidloes-Machynlleth mountain road. Every village has loads of (ugly)
    street lamps, and loads of men in county council vans doing small
    jobs. That is very expensive. then pop over the border and you find
    decommissioned street lamps, pot holes, very rough roads. So how come
    the welsh councils can maintain their roads in a harsh environment and
    the English cant. Sounds like an unfair division of funds to me.

    • Conway

      The Welsh also have free prescriptions for all – something that annoyed me intensely as I live only a few miles over the border in England!

    • Dusty01

      Greener grass?
      Or
      Priorities?

  • Amir

    Read this article, David Blunkett on the Scottish independence:

    http://www.casualpolitics.co.uk/2014/06/an-exclusive-interview-with-r-t-david-blunkett/

  • Mark McIntyre

    Forsooth – Forsyth – Blighty be a mess as a ‘United Kingdom’ !…
    British this, English that, Scottish that, Welsh that, Ulstern that, English / Welsh that…
    Then there be the Barnett Formula…
    There be also the West Lothian question…
    What a shambles – time for a clean break – independence for ENGLAND !

  • Maidmarrion

    Scotland has been polluted by trident long enough – it is your turn .
    Either put up or shut up.
    Scotlands path has differed from that of Westminster for a very ,very long time.
    300 years is quite long enough for anything .
    By the way for WHOM is this a successful union?
    Certainly NOT the ordinary folk of these islands.

    • Blindsideflanker

      The only thing Trident has ‘polluted’ Scotland with is high paid, high skilled jobs, yep I believe Plymouth will happily take them.

      • Maidmarrion

        Shocked by repeated safety breaches, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency (Sepa), the government authority that oversees radioactive emissions from civil nuclear sites, is pressing for the legal power to inspect and control Faslane’s nuclear operations.

        The most damning report, produced by the MoD in September 2008 after complaints by Sepa, states that failing to abide by safety procedures is a “recurring theme” at Faslane. “This is a cultural issue that HM Naval Base Clyde needs to find a way to address,” it says. The 100-page report, released by Sepa to Channel 4 News, concludes that many of the ageing facilities used to process, store and dispose of radioactive waste at Faslane are not fit for purpose.

        Other documents disclose that there have been at least eight radioactive leaks in the last 10 years, bringing the total number acknowledged at Faslane over the last three decades to more than 40.

        From the Guardian.
        As for Portsmouth being happy , I take it the population of Portsmouth are happy with radio active pollution and cancer clusters – or didn’t you bother to ask??

        • foto2021

          No-one mentioned Portsmouth, so why bring that city into the discussion?

          Perhaps you are confused and meant Plymouth. The naval base at Devonport is experienced at dealing with nuclear material as Britain’s hunter-killer submarine fleet, which is based at Devonport, is nuclear-powered though conventionally armed.

          I feel sure that the staff at Devonport would be happy to service Trident submarines, however their ability to arrive and depart submerged would be compromised. That is a key feature of the Clyde submarine base which is not matched by any other harbour in the UK.

          • Alexsandr

            they could do Trident at Workington or Whitehaven. Plenty of experienced staff from Sellafield there. Or even Barrow.

        • Inverted Meniscus

          The Guardian, the rag favoured by people who hate Britain and could not be relied upon for an objective opinion. Your argument would carry more weight if you quoted the Beano which is closer to your intellect judging from the rubbish you post.

      • terregles2

        The Ministry of Defence blocked the oil exploration in the Firth of Clyde during he 1980s.
        This area is close to Trident and understandably oil exploration could not continue in an area which stores nuclear weapons.
        Many in Scotland would prefer to be rid of Trident and be able to continue the previous oil exploration.
        If Plymouth would be happy to have Trident then that would be a good outcome for both countries. A win win situation indeed.

  • Fergus Pickering

    Yes, but it isn’t up to us. The scots will decide. But, do you know what? I don’t want to be Great Britain. Little England would suit me very well. Put you chaps out of a job, but intoeach life some rain must fall. Yup, I’ll vote for Lttle England.Like Holland but bigger with our glorious past safely behind us. Nigel Farage would make a splendid Prime Minister of Little England.

    • echo34

      Agree, why is big better?

    • Blindsideflanker

      Surely it isn’t ‘Little England’ but a choice between England, where we would have a country that is rebuilding its identity and culture and looking forward or Little Britain, where you have a decadent British political class who a pretty much good for nothing, other than selling our country out.

    • Alexsandr

      Little england? have you tried the drive from penzance to berwick? – Its a very long way.

      • Terry Field

        Why would one go north- surely a sane person would remain in England, or drive there from the Land of Wode?

        • Alexsandr

          Berwick is in England…

          • Terry Field

            And it will stay that way – we have ringed it with heat seeking ground to air batteries and each citizen has been given a cyanide capsule rather than be captured and forced to wear the kilt.

            • Alexsandr

              well it has fine Elizabethan ramparts to keep the mauraders out.
              there again in Alnwick they reckon the people of Berwick to be Scottish really!

              • Terry Field

                Alnwick folk have become soft and deranged after the ducal garden was opened and the place is overwhelmed by RHS types.

      • Fergus Pickering

        Well, littleish. Bigger than Luxembourg but smaller than Canada.

        • Tahitiholiday

          Smaller than Texas, smaller than Florida!

          • Fergus Pickering

            But much ncer than these places. History, culture, prper beer…

            • Tahitiholiday

              You haven’t had a southern I. P. A., then. I like Jai Alai, but there are all sorts of regional ones. Nothing like a crisp cold beer on a hot day….

              Also, what do you mean about culture? Has there ever been a culture more capturing of the imagination than the frontier cowboy self-reliance of the Texan? (Marlboro Man: he exists). And I live on the so-called ‘Culture Coast’ of Florida, if you don’t mind!

              • Fergus Pickering

                I drink Ruddles Bitter. I need no other. The cowboy culure is totally naff. It never existed. A total fabrication like most American ‘history’. As for Florida you’d think it was filled with the young and beautiful but in fact it’s miles and bloody miles of Bournemouth

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  With more Mosquitos but fewer tattoos.

                • Kitty MLB

                  Do the retired people of Bournemouth have
                  tattoos, I thought those were the ones who visited Blackpool- only joking!

                • Kitty MLB

                  Oh come Fergus.Your being a little unfair,
                  although I have never visited Florida or indeed
                  the US myself.All these older English people and
                  those with small children gather together like
                  sardines in the same spots. Florida must have
                  huge wildlife areas that are hardly visited by
                  English people who for some mindboggling reason like beaches.And what about native Americans, I assume that is a culture.
                  And I am a cool white wine or G&T with ice
                  and lime type of woman, and in the garden.

                • Fergus Pickering

                  You are right, Kitty. Perhaps a mite unfair. I spent a very pleasant week in East Texas close to the loisiana border a few years back. Nota cactus in sight, though plenty of cowboy hats. Texans are big, friendly, hugely overweight and their food is fantastic, all served by gorgeous Lolitas with practically no clothes on.

                • Kitty MLB

                  Well the reason why they’re hugely overweight is probably because of the gorgeous Lolita’s serving food. Now if they were to sent Harriet Harmen to Texas to serve food.. that would be the best diet in history.

                • Fergus Pickering

                  The women are as fat as the men so the Lolitas BECOME the fat women.

                • Wessex Man

                  Never never ever change Kitty darling.

                • Tahitiholiday

                  Oh rubbish. I lived in Texas for five years, saw the old family photos and heard the (hair-raising) stories of the rancher that lived (in his ‘town’ home) down the street. I suppose you deny there were Indians, as well.

                  As for Florida, have you actually been there? If you think it’s anything like Bournemouth, I would bet not.

                • Wessex Man

                  Please don’t take this the wrong way but I prefer California to Texas and Florida, there was only one city in the States that I was glad to leave. I found the Americans and Canadians to be a lot more friendly than Europeans.

                  Having visted Bournemouth, I must say that I don’t think theres anywhere in the States that has sunk so low.

                • Kitty MLB

                  I have always wanted to visit Canada. It looks
                  so beautiful in books. A distant relative of my
                  belated aunt lived there.I always remember her
                  saying you need to be careful when putting your
                  rubblsh out because of Grizzly Bears.

                • Tahitiholiday

                  California’s wonderful — I was agog both times I visited — but it’s a Lefty mess with some serious problems. Texas ain’t my fave place, either, and it’s changing (Leftward, natch, partly owing to uncontrolled illegal Mexican immigration). Florida is generally misunderstood, especially by people that haven’t been there or have only seen one part (such as Miami, the Keys, St. Augustine or the Panhandle). Florida has also improved a good deal in the past twenty years: no longer God’s waiting room but a cosmopolitan, largely affluent place for all ages, though still a kind of natural paradise. I like the Gulf Coast best. The beaches are fabulous.

                • Fergus Pickering

                  Nope. You ever been to Bournemouth?

                • Tahitiholiday

                  Indeed. What’s wrong with it? I even like Eastbourne once in a while.

  • RavenRandom

    Can we start by not calling it the rump UK?

    • Wessex Man

      My demand exactly, we live in England, a nation that forms the largest part of the United Kingdom when the Scots achieve Independence their 5 million people will have left the United Kingdom but the rest unfoertunately will still be the United Kindom.

      • Terry Field

        55 million English are worth 350 million polyglot Europeans.

  • HookesLaw

    The nuclear deterrent would continue. The cold war is over and if needs be the deterrent value against rogue states would be maintained through the difficulties of moving the subs and their warheads.

    Indeed the simplest temprorary solution would be to base the subs in America.

    The UK would continue, there is no problem. The problems are all for Scotland and perhaps more worryingly for Northern Ireland. But without a doubt the UK is better with Scotland and Scotland is better in the UK.

    • Wessex Man

      Hooky babe, can you list a few of the benefits for me why Scotland is better for the UK?

      • Terry Field

        Free access to porridge.

        • Wessex Man

          urgh, I can’t think of anything worse being offered up at breakfast.

    • Terry Field

      We need the nuclear deterrent to protect us from rogue states such as Scotland, who may threaten to lob haggis over the border unless we capitulate and buy a wholesale quantity of shortbread.

      • Inverted Meniscus

        Well if the shortbread is dipped in milk chocolate you would have to concede that they have a point.

        • Terry Field

          AH, the thought of it!
          In fact I prefer dark chocolate. Milk is good on its own, and even though it is not really chocolate at all, as an ex-pat I look to the taste of Cadbury’s Dairy Milk with some nostalgia. I am in the UK soon so I will buy some and take it back to the dark regions of the world.
          Britain seems to be on the up – I do hope the bottom 30% of the population that has its votes bought by “the Labour” do not succeed in inserting a bunch of dysfunctional horrors into Downing Street – but I suspect they will.
          It is full of genius, but for seven decades it seems to have had a death-wish and used socialism to achieve it.

          • Inverted Meniscus

            Nothing to disagree with here Terry, save for the dark chocolate. I too was an expat for many years and Cadburys chocolate was a comfort and a blessed reminder of home. A home that may well be destroyed by a party of Puritan socialist nutters whose credo is: ‘we know how to regulate your lives and spend your money ( and your children’s) better than you do so shut up and be grateful or else’. They seem to place ever greater emphasis on the ‘or else’. How a preposterous, know-nothing, duplicitous, incompetent scumbag like Ed Miliband could possibly be prime minister is beyond me yet it is possible.

            • Terry Field

              You understate the deficiencies of Milliband.
              He will be as or more ruinous as Blair and Brown was.
              Socialism is a foreign-born infection that has wrecked Britain; it will die out, but the universal suffrage allows for massive political corruption and vote-buying, Pork-barrel politics every day of the week. We have been close to insurrection, possibly civil war, because of the intolerability of these distortions.
              I look forward to Devomax and the resolution of the Westlothian Question, rationally drawn and uncorrupted parliamentary boundaries, and the unavoidable marginalisation of the socialist groups in England.
              I hope that Clegg loses his seat.
              He is worth the job of a car-park attendant, and little more.

              • Inverted Meniscus

                Hear, hear sir! Bring it on.

  • Kitty MLB

    James , the rest of the world would know it to be a democratic
    choice. As if Europe will ever have a choice let alone reform.
    And Scotland will have all their delightful Labour MP’s back
    and we will still be a world power…when out of the EU.
    All this needy whinging about things that newspapers etc
    are wallowing in happens not to be very British.

  • Blindsideflanker

    “If Scotland did leave, it would be a disaster for the rump UK that would be left behind”

    Why do you use such stupid ignorant language, how can 5 million Scots leave this dysfunctional Union, leaving the 58 million, and you consider the 58 million are the ‘rump’. How stupid is that?

    If you rewrote the sentence using the definition of ‘rump’ this is how it would come out…….If Scotland did leave, it would be a disaster for the (small and unimportant remnant) of UK that would be left behind” …….Ridiculous!!!!!

    I am not sure what psychosis afflicts the British establishment, but perhaps the Scots are rejecting this inferiority complex, for what chance this country getting anything done , when we are led by people who see us as this little feeble country.

  • Tony_E

    Far too pessimistic a view. It would take some time to adjust, but the nett benefits would assert themselves in time.

    The problem is that if the Scots vote no, we’ll just be back here again in a few years. They won’t have got enough devolution, or they will have their regular quarrel with London because the UK elected a government that isn’t socialist. And then the threat of separation will return.

    The years of uncertainty won’t be worth it for the rest of us. Better they take their chance now they have it.

    • ButcombeMan

      They were not even happy when we /had/ a socialist government.

    • Fergus Pickering

      But they won’t. Scots talk big but they don’t have much courage.

  • JonBW

    Rubbish.

    England would be better off out of the Union.

    The UK will not survive the election of a government whose majority depends on Scots and Welsh MPs if most English people have voted for a party denied office; with devolved government this would represent a travesty of democracy.

  • BarkingAtTreehuggers

    “Every time the Prime Minister of the rUK raised his voice on the world stage, he would be met by a mocking chorus of ‘you couldn’t even keep your own country together’.”

    Now is this some kind of a sick joke – “keeping the country together”?
    If there was one thing I learnt in my short life then it would be that nothing ever remains static. Everything always changes, the drivers always move on, others are always left behind. The Irish to name one were once part of the country that could not be ‘kept together’, then perhaps India, or Australia, or Jamaica – not ever the Isle of flippin’ Man could be ‘kept together’.

    There is no one left to milk. The colonies – all gone. The indigenous plebiscite is the only plebscite left to demand payments from. The credit-worthiness of the indigenous now matters most. Can we be seen to load all this debt onto an ever smaller number of indigenous people?

    Of course not, that is why we need to seen to fill up this country with those from the colonies and of course with those from Europe. Everyone who wants to come can come. Please come! Yes, even Chinese investors – come and fill this land with the millions of your most affluent citizenry.

    There we have it – a summary of British economic policy of the last 150 years.
    Does Scotland even have a choice to be or not to be part of it?

    • Wessex Man

      ‘That is *my* question.’ mine is what on earth are you on?

    • Dusty01

      “a summary of British economic policy of the last 150 years”

      I would go further and say that has been the British way since its conception 400 years ago.

  • 2trueblue

    James I think your point that if the vote for independence is defeated then it must be stopped there and the Scots must shut up and put up like the rest of us have to. The English are actually the ones who are sat upon. We have both Welsh and Scottish MPs being allowed to vote on matters that ere pertinent to England and this must stop. Liebore spent the whole 13yrs. in power trying to dilute anything British and English and pretending that identity for otheres was more important. This was a cynical ploy to ensure fracturing the UK.
    Being British is what should matter. The strength is in the unity, and if the Scots don not get that they they will find out that they are not very important IF they get their independence which will be worth nothing as a tiny part of the EU.

    • Andy

      Quite agree. We MUST have an English Parliament.

    • telemachus

      To me it does not matter whether or not Scotland is hitched to Westminster
      We are all Europeans
      It is interesting that the business leaders told Miliband today that they were attracted to his commitment on Europe

      • Kitty MLB

        Are these the business leaders that were literally in
        darkness. Maybe Moribund scared the living daylights
        out of them.And by the way we are English and the
        United Kingdom. Not Europeans..

        • telemachus

          I understand
          little english

          • 2trueblue

            Your reply says it all, you speak little english.

            • Jackthesmilingblack

              Think you`ll find writing skills are the issue here.

      • Andy

        We are not Europeans: we are ENGLISH.

        • telemachus

          Aspiring little english

          • Andy

            But you are a Fascist and HATE the English.

            • telemachus

              I love my country and want it to be a success at the heart of Europe

              • Andy

                Liar.
                You hate England.
                You hate the English.
                You love the European Union.
                And you love Fascism.

                • you_kid

                  how old are you? 12?

                • Jackthesmilingblack

                  That`s a lot to live up to.
                  Face it Andy, residents abroad have already voted with their feet. That`s why UK authority have made getting a postal vote logistically impossible.
                  Jack, Japan Alps

                • Wessex Man

                  why on earth are you all bothering to exchange comments with this slimy lying piece of work, ignore him and isolate him.

                • Kitty MLB

                  We all respond to him. I suppose its the mystery and absurdness that he wears as a shroud, he also has jocularity
                  in his dark soul. Besides you’d all miss him if he left the Spectator corridors, who else arouses such annoyance.

                • telemachus

                  And patronising patting on the head

                • Kitty MLB

                  I was only being mischievous, little wasp.
                  I respond to you because your my second favourite ‘evil socialist’.My first is resident
                  leftie who posts elsewhere..he’s funny, intelligent, polite and never terminally serious.
                  But alas, a sandwich short of a picnic socialist.

                • Andy

                  Because you should always fight Fascism.

                • telemachus

                  Andy
                  I keep telling you that fascism is an exclusive preserve of the Right
                  *
                  Try OED
                  An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.

                • Andy

                  And we all keep telling you National Socialists where Fascism belongs. You are a Fascist.

                • Wessex Man

                  He’s just a slimy lying make believe socialist who sits in front of his keyboard waiting for you all to reply to him so that he can try and wind you up, ignore it.

                • Conway

                  Because all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

                • Alexsandr

                  and he hates democracy

                • Terry Field

                  Infant.
                  Cretin

              • kyalami

                Which is entirely possible.

                But Europe is going to have to change. A LOT.

                • Conway

                  Europe (I presume you mean the EU) is not for changing.

                • Terry Field

                  It is driving forward the integration at a pace – the Euro geriatrics are old men in a hurry.
                  And Mutti Merkel is dead keen as well.
                  Gross Deutschland rules OK

              • Fergus Pickering

                Have you looked at a map, O wise on?e. We are on the edge of Europe. Only Ireland is edgier.

              • Conway

                Unfortunately for you, as Cameron has already proved, it is impossible for us to be “a success at the heart of Europe” (which is geographically impossible anyway since we are an island off the main land mass) because we have no influence whatsoever in the EU. Since the EU’s economy is declining and ours is still growing, it would seem being “at the heart of Europe” would scupper any chances of success completely.

              • Terry Field

                Idiot.
                It is a success to its own people – who gives a p*ss what the murderous ‘Europeans’ think – crawler!.
                The ‘heart’ if EUrope is the Bundeskanzlerin – der Regierungschef der Bundesrepublik Deutschland.
                Wakey wakey.

      • ButcombeMan

        “Europeans” is a geographic identity, not a cultural one,

        However hard anyone tries, the British will never be other than semi detached members of Europe. To be otherwise is not in our nature.
        We have been citizens of the world for 500 years.

        Milliband is making a very big mistake about the referendum.

        He should listen to Len (for once). His ridiculous position will lose Labour votes.

        He should also have decided before Len started to push him . He is a ditherer.

        • Alexsandr

          i think you are conflating ‘Europe’ and the EU. One can like europe and feel part of it without loving the dysfunctional, undemocratic EU

          • ButcombeMan

            Point taken, maybe, maybe not. The educated and relatively wealthy and well travelled have often felt European in some respects.

            The hoi polloi, I suggest, have largely not.

            Remember who are said to begin at Calais.

            Those ordinary people, see the EU through a very simple lens, a view which eludes Cameron, Clegg and Milliband.

            When the impact of EU policies, hits ordinary, relatively uneducated folk, they will start to revolt, they have already and it will hit Labour most. There are swathes of voters who do not think of themselves as European. Younger voters tend to but youngsters tend not to vote.

            • Conway

              I am not entirely happy with your suggestion that unless you feel connected to Europe you are hoi polloi, uneducated and untravelled. I’ve never felt European, but I’ve travelled the world (most of Europe before 1973, incidentally) and I have more qualifications than you can shake a stick at. I would suggest it is those who have not been taught history, but have been indoctrinated by the EU, who tend to swallow its propaganda.

              • ButcombeMan

                Plainly I was talking generalities which is why I used the word “largely”.

                You apparently “do not feel European” . fair enough, exactly my point. Most people do not, especially (but not exclusively) the less well educated..

          • Conway

            I agree. I love Europe (I’ve got lots of friends who live there), but I can’t abide the EU and I’ll do all I can to free us from its clutches.

      • 2trueblue

        Do not let us detain you, go.

      • Conway

        Clearly, since Mandelson admitted that Labour sent out search parties to find immigrants to change society and, as Neather admitted, rub the noses of the Right in diversity, we are not “all Europeans”. Some are clearly Asian and African (and thus, by definition, not European).

      • Tahitiholiday

        We are all Europeans
        I’m not: I’m English. That will last when the EU no longer appears on the passport.

  • foto2021

    Whatever the overall result, it will be clear that millions of Scottish people want out of the United Kingdom. This will have a considerable bearing on how much more British taxpayers’ money is given to the Scots in future to persuade them to stay.

    • 2trueblue

      In very election there is always a winner, and if the vote supports staying in the UK then that is life, BUT it must be made clear that that is it. Move on and work for the betterment of all of us in the UK/

    • HookesLaw

      ‘Whatever the result’
      There are 4 million in the Scottish electorate. On a 75% turn out that means 1 million are not bothered for a start.
      If the vote is 60% No then another 1.8 million are not bothered either. That leaves just 1.2 million saying they want to leave. That’s not ‘millions’. Even if there is a narrow Yes vote that is in effect just 1.5 million – again not ‘millions’.
      To be ‘millions’ (just) then Yes would have to win with 67% of the vote. There are no indications of that. What Salmond is desperate for are thick English people to mouth off stupid nastiness against Scotland and the Scots. He needs this precisely because there are not ‘millions’ of Scots who want to leave the Union.

      • Wessex Man

        I know Hooky that’s why I posted my comment above, please advise anything else we can do to persuade them vote Yes.

        • foto2021

          The Scots are so contrary that, if we told them we wanted them to leave the UK, they would vote to stay in just to spite us.

    • Wessex Man

      don’t want to give them money to persuade them to stay can’t we give them more this year if they promise to go?

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