Coffee House

What we learned from leaked tapes showing Poland’s Radek Sikorski turning on Cameron

23 June 2014

6:32 PM

23 June 2014

6:32 PM

Other than the revelation that politicians like to use bad language (hardly a shock to Coffee House readers), what have we learned from the tapes, leaked to Polish magazine Wprost, of Polish government ministers and officials? The tapes include conversations about Britain’s European policy, and they are not complimentary. Open Europe have translated the key exchanges, and offered some points here, but here are a few further thoughts:

1. Senior Polish politicians are resigned to Britain leaving the EU in 2017. Former Finance Minister Jacek Rostowski and Foreign Minister Radek Sikorski discuss David Cameron’s EU strategy, with Rostowski concluding that ‘I think it’ll be the case that [Cameron] will lose the elections. Great Britain will leave.’ He also says he thinks this will be bad for Poland, but both men seem unwilling to agree to the renegotiation.

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2. Cameron’s European strategy appears – to these politicians at least – ill-thought-through. Sikorski, who was in London last week (like Cameron he’s a Bullingdon Club graduate) describes the PM’s decision to renegotiate Britain’s relationship with the EU as ‘either a very badly through-through move or, not for the first time, a kind of incompetence in European affairs.’ Worse is to come, I’m afraid – these Bullingdon alumni can be very rude about each other.

‘Remember? He fucked up the fiscal pact. He fucked it up. Simple as that. He is not interested, he does not get it, he believes in the stupid propaganda, he stupidly tries to play the system… his whole strategy of feeding [his critics] scraps in order to satisfy them is (just as I predicted) turning against him’ You know, his whole strategy of feeding them scraps in order to satisfy them is just as I predicted, turning against him; he should have said: “fuck off!”. Tried to convince people and isolate [the sceptics]. But he ceded the field to those that are now embarrassing him.’

Of course, Cameron never really wanted to be in this position. His promise of a renegotiation followed by a referendum was not one he set out to make when seeking election as leader of the Conservative party and then as Prime Minister. His party bounced him into this, regardless of his own thoughts.But Sikorski’s ‘kind of incompetence in European affairs’ line is far more damaging. It is the tag that Cameron fears because he must give the impression that he knows how to get what he wants from European leaders.
But as James revealed in the magazine in January 2013, Cameron has mis-read signals from Angela Merkel before, and ended up in a mess: he thought she’d given the impression that she was significant to his predicament at a lunch in 2011, but found to his horror that she ganged up on him with Nicholas Sarkozy, leading to his ‘veto’ in December 2011. His wranglings over Jean-Claude Juncker, in which he started out so confident that he’d block the candidate, and is now only saying he plans to go down fighting, suggest he may have mis-read Merkel again.

3. David Cameron has managed to offend Polish politicians. The furious exchange between Pawel Gras, Donald Tusk’s spokesman, and Jacek Krawiec, the head of the country’s largest oil and gas conglomerate, shows that the focus on benefit tourism has not gone down well at all.

Krawiec: ‘What the fuck are they on about with these benefits? [Cameron] seems really sensible bloke… when I met him in London he talked a lot of sense.’

Gras: ‘Thoughtless, probably suggested by [some spin doctor] probably came from some focus group, he didn’t think through the consequences, the whole thing was stupid, Donald called him at once to discuss it, he had such a go at him, I mean it’s a shame we didn’t record it, he had a such a proper fucking go at him.’

Benefit tourism is not as widespread a problem as voters think, yet because the polls show that voters think it is a more widespread problem than it is, politicians in this country feel they must make a noise about it. The problem is that this clearly does not go unnoticed in the countries these ‘benefit tourists’ hail from, and what might seem to be a smart political move now could offend potential allies for the more important renegotiation later. Cameron clearly has some patching up to do with Poland, if not elsewhere, before he can be quite so confident that he’ll get what he wants from his renegotiation.

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Show comments
  • Tomasz Romanowski

    Hello from a a “spastic nation” of “EU-addicted morons” and whatever else we may have been called on this forum. I guess you, Britons, never realized that Poland, as a country, has absolutely no benefits from this mass migration to Britain. In fact, we lose a lot of hard-working, motivated, skilled (anywhere from manual to high-tech. artists) labor. So, the reason our minister may have been concerned with Britain leaving the EU – is not that “the Poles will have no place to go on welfare”. If you were to bother with the stats&numbers you’d find that percentage-wise
    very, very few Poles are on welfare in Britain. Most of them are
    working.
    Anyway, that’s somewhat beside the point ’cause you are reading way too much into what sounds like a casual, almost meaningless chit-chat between two buddies. We all yap our mouths after a few beers don’t we?

  • Pax

    Cool your jets gentlemen. Britain is not leaving EU, in fact it will be part of the new and improved Euro-Atlantic Union (Google up TIPPa). The problem here is not the British people, the Polish people or the American people. The problem is the corporations that operate beyond government control. They screw everyone in the butt equally. They take the jobs away form American workers, and destroy local economies in countries like Poland to have a cheap pool of labor for the jobs they just took away from American, or British workers. Nobody is better off but the 1%-ers who control those corporations. All to make an extra buck (or a pound). There are now winners in this situation among us, the average guys, but the international elite takes all the spoils.
    The Euro-Atlantic Union will expand the EU-like free flow of people and goods to USA, creating the biggest single market in the history of mankind, encompassing 51% of global GDP (their own boasting). So, if you are a worker from London or West Virginia, prepare to move to Lithuania to find work, if you are an engineer, you may have to move to California, where you will be paid 30% lower salary than a native American, as to drive the local salaries further down – everywhere and for everybody. And thus we will end up with a second Brazil, which is like a 7th economy in the world, but have no middle class, just a group of fantastically wealthy and the endless oceans of the poor people.

  • Sandy_Jamieson

    If the conspiracy theorists were right, the British were parties to the demise of another Polish Leader called Sikorski. I do hope the Polish Foreign Minister finds that thought comforting

  • http://www.fronda.pl polpolitico

    Good source in Warsaw tells me that the only people losing elections will be Sikorski (after tapes he’s finished; he were finshed before them) and PM Tusk (a pinnacle of incompetence, he is detested by majority of the population). These Polish speaking German puppets should not be confused with Polish right wingers and EU sceptics who are almost certain to win next election either this year or in 2015. Who will remember that SIkorski existed? Except Poles having a hangover?

  • Right-Minded

    You would think these Polish politicians would be a bit more grateful of Cameron and the rest of our elite, given that Britain is the dumping ground for excess Polish labour.

    It’s no wonder he’s worried about a British exit though, because they will no longer be able to flood our labour market.

    • Lorenzo

      From what I read in far off America, at least the Poles are flooding your labor market and not your welfare system.

      • Right-Minded

        The extent of benefit/welfare tourism is debatable, but nevertheless their mere presence is suppressing wage rates, and large parts of the money they do earn is being sent back to Poland.

        So I’d probably rather have them be welfare claimants instead.

        • Lorenzo

          I don’t understand why welfare claimants are less of an economic drain than workers who send money out of the country. They are, after all, producing desired goods and services rather than living as parasites.

          • Right-Minded

            I would agree with you that they’re not, but the point I was making is that neither is desirable. And the best case scenario for this country would be if they didn’t come at all, either to work or abuse our generous welfare system.

            A quick look at the unemployment rate will tell you that we don’t need them, there is already an excess supply of labour.

            • Lorenzo

              Just be thankful you don’t have 2,000 miles of essentially undefended border with the third world like we do in the USA.

  • Dougie

    Yes, if you ignore the obscenities and focus on the content, what these Poles are saying really doesn’t make any sense. But then, few verbatim utterances stand up to scrutiny. Just read any quote from Boris Johnson to see what I mean.
    Apparently there is one – yup, just the one – Polish civil servant employed in Warsaw to validate the existence of children for whom Poles in the UK are claiming child benefit. Not surprisingly, her backlog is even greater than that of the Passport Office. For some reason the DWP pays these claims unless and until they are found to be fraudulent rather than denying them until they are validated.

  • abystander

    This is what happens when

    1 You pander to UKIP and Tory eurosceptics

    2 You deploy public school bully boy tactics on grown-ups.

  • Roger Hudson

    Cameron can put Britain (or England and Wales) first by bringing the referendum forward to May 2015, have an in/out vote at the same time as a ‘who governs’ general election.
    If there were an EU ‘no’ vote then a Scottish border, like the NI border would be an EU border, that’s complicated. My frequent drive from one home to another is complicated by an EU border in the way.

  • Roger Hudson

    The British have been linked with the Poles since 1939 (earlier if you include Polish Jews) and I have known literally dozens of people whose families came to Britain during ,or just after, WW2, they are good members of society. Poland should always be a British ally.
    Wasn’t it Poland , with a few others, who wanted the EU constitution (Lisbon etc.) to make reference to the Christian historical character of Europe ? that was sabotaged by the self-hate , Turkey supporting,lobby.

  • Martin Jennerson

    Absolutely disgraceful, obviously Polish politicians think their people have some kind of absolute right to British benefits. Totally unacceptable language, any balls and we would dismiss ambassador or something

  • global city

    ‘Benefit tourism’ is a straw man, dreamed up by Tories in order to ‘win’ an ‘important’ issue that nobody had considered central to ‘the European issue’.

    What the Tories completely fail to understand is just how dedicated the elites on the continent really are to the core aspect of ever closer political union, as this will transform all of them from mere local elites to continental overlords.

    In order to do that however, Isabel, mats and James will all have to lose their role in the democratic process, just like the rest of us.

  • wycombewanderer

    hat we’ve learnt is that the British left will side with anyone against the tories, hence the glee at this over at CIF where they’re too dumb to realise these are right wing polish mps and one even was a member of the Bulligdon club they so despise because of Boris George and David.

    The second thing we learn is that these polish mps have failed to see the similarity to the UKs position when it joined the then EEC in 1975.

    The UK was the sick man of europe with strikes blackouts and unproductivity.

    The UK joined for what it could get from the EEC never expecting to become a major contributor.

    So when Albania, Georgia, Ukraine and Turkey join it will be Poland in the place of the UK and they will have to pay the price.
    There’s no free lunch in the EU.

    • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

      You see it all wrong. It is the EU (including UK) who leached Poland dry. They took our national wealth, resources, everything, and now they are going to next targets.

  • edlancey

    No wonder the Germans or Russians have to hand out a periodic thrashing to these troublesome drunken oafs.

    • Kennybhoy

      Mentula.

      • edlancey

        Pretentious, pathetic f# b#.

        That the only book you get in the Bar-L ?

        Or did you nick it from Bairds Bar before they closed it down.

        • Kennybhoy

          I’m sorry but you have lost me mentula… ?Which book are you referring to?

          And, for the record, I have never darkened the doorstep of either institution.

          • edlancey

            stick your mentula up your backside you idiot.

  • ohforheavensake

    This Polish chap is right.

  • stephengreen

    While I have absolutely no brief for the fool and knave Cameron, it’s worth remembering that Sikorski was one of the co-signatories and therefore overseers of the agreement to the national unity government in Ukraine. He did this both as an official representative of the EU and also of Poland. The betrayal of that agreement is directly responsible for the geopolitical crisis in Ukraine, the dismemberment and prostration of the country and the growing political proximity between Russia and China with the West forced to acquiesce due to our need for energy. The man is beneath contempt.

  • swatnan

    The man is an oik.

    • MrsDBliss

      You’re right if course, but the trouble is the Tory party now would see that as them being the ‘nasty’ party. It would, after all, see lots of British single mums not get benefits as well and they’re a group that can’t be touched. Fr easier to put the responsibility at the fathers feet. That doesn’t mean to say the former don’t get criticisms, it just tends to be by the Daily Mail rather than politicians.

      • Kennybhoy

        “It would, after all, see lots of British single mums not get benefits as well and they’re a group that can’t be touched.”

        Spot on. A far bigger issue even than Europe per se.

  • DWWolds

    Isabel: I’m not sure this episode reveals that Cameron has some patching up to do but rather the extent of the chasm between UK thinking and that of the rest of the EU.
    At Christmas time I was exchanging e-mails with a long-time Polish friend who has been a highly regarded scientist and a pro-rector of one of their leading universities. He wrote that unemployment there was so high it was a good thing their young people could come to the UK for work. He seemed absolutely astonished when I explained that this was causing us considerable problems not least in terms of a health service at breaking point, the need to build more schools and even new towns not to mention the high rate of unemployment among our own young people. These points had clearly never even occurred to him so, presumably, they are never aired in the Polish media.
    Another point I would make is that in the early 1990s I attended a meeting in Rendsburg in Northern Germany. One of the speakers who the deputy leader of one of Germany’s key industrial sectors commented that the Germans were not like the English. They did not believe in free trade. They believed in protecting their industry.
    Of course, the current low exchange for the euro suits German industry quite nicely thank you. So, it seems, they still believe in protecting their industries. However, when we try to do the same, eg by opposing the transaction tax, the kind of vitriol reported in your article is thrown at us.

    • HookesLaw

      Recent figures showed that 9 out of 10 new jobs went to British. Our problem is getting our own people to make themselves available for work. Thats why we have taken on so many EU nationals. The problems of today were made much worse by labour in 2004, that’s true, but our own people do not want work thats why they stay on benefits. Its to IDS and the tory party’s credit that they want to reform that.

      Are you saying the Germans are breaking EU laws and somehow protecting their industry? Thats wrong. Can you give examples.

      • Tony_E

        Come now, we know exactly how the Germans protect their industries. It’s the use of the southern EU states, under the heel of the Bundersbank (because that’s really what the ECB is), that beggars everyone else for Germany’s gain.

        The rate at which Germany joined the Euro gave them a head start, but the policies which depress the value of the Euro now enrich Germany in a way that that resembles a mercantilist empire. They have too much power in Europe which is exactly what Margaret Thatcher warned of when Germany reunited.

      • DWWolds

        Can’t you read? In my earlier post I did not mention jobs. I merely pointed out the effect large scale immigration is having on our public services, not least the NHS.
        And the comment about the Germans protecting their industry was not made by me. It was made by a leading representation of one of that country’s key business sectors. You might also like to read the comment by one of leading historians just yesterday: “Sooner or later the Eurozone will collapse with especially painful consequences for its southern European members, however many of their bills the Germans go on paying to enable them all to buy imported BMWs”.

    • Makroon

      If you have only now realised that Germany is a stolid, mercantilist country, I fear for you. They haven’t really moved on from Karl Marx yet.
      “Opening markets and industries” is something for the Indians and Chinese to do, not the fatherland.
      Germany is schizoid – between loving the EU for rigging the currency and allowing them to indulge their proclivity for hegemony, and hating the EU for threatening to bleed them white.
      Since the politicians are in charge, expect the first tendency to always win out.

      • DWWolds

        I haven’t only “now ” realised that Germany acts on its own behalf. That knowledge dates back to at least 1993 when I attended the meeting in Rendsburg.

  • DaveTheRave

    We are left with one stark choice: Vote UKIP next May.
    UKIP may not be the answer, ultimately, but what bloody choice do true democrats have?
    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again… we are in MORE danger now than we were in 1939, yet we are virtually sleepwalking to disaster, distracted, belittled, exhausted.
    The problem we face right now is that it’s not so clear who is our friend, who is our enemy.
    Either way, we MUST extricate from this EU stranglehold which basically wants to enslave us, or destroy us.

  • Lucy Sky Diamonds

    ‘He also says he thinks this will be bad for Poland’ Probably because he will have to find hundreds of thousands of jobs for people….

    • Tony_E

      I don’t think that many Poles would be repatriated, and I think it’s unlikely that even a post EU British government would force that issue. The changes in the UK population are now final, and won’t be reversed.

  • anyfool

    Poland another proud country who spent 60 years under the control of the Soviet Union, in effect controlled by Russia, found that when they became free, their elected politicians, handed over their soul and freedom to a new Soviet Union, this one in effect controlled by Germany.
    Millions of Poles fought and died fighting these two countries, for what, they are still slaves.

    • global city

      That’s what the EU does. It invites the elites of a country to join their gravy train and grandstand as a European leader, not merely a politician of some small nation.

      They find this prospect truly exciting.

  • Smithersjones2013

    Once again Cameron’s folly is exposed. The beauty of it is that in playing his silly games Cameron is probably wrecking the UK’s relationship with his Brussels partners to such a point that it will further progress our departure

    • dandigirl

      Hope so. D x

    • Blindsideflanker

      No , I think it exposes the stupidity of the lot of them. If these Polish politicians are anything to go by they are all clueless, and in their unwillingness to recognise reality, they are attacking each other.

      • Smithersjones2013

        Why is it stupid of the Poles? What reality are they unwilling to recognise? They want to progress the EU project and financial integration. Cameron’s ridiculous posturing does not aid that ambition. Therefore by undermining him and further wrecking his credibility as an effective EU leader they reduce his chances of being returned to government. That in turn scuppers his referendum promise and under a Labour government there would be no such referendum and the UK stays in. The problewm Cameron has been causing them disappears.

        If anything I will expect more of these EU ‘revelations’ in the run-up to the 2015 election in order to further damage Cameron…..

        • Alexsandr

          the eastern countries are net receivers form the EU. Without the UK paying in their bungs become less secure. Thats why they are worried.

        • Tony_E

          I think it will have the opposite effect. If they think this damages Cameron then they are being a bit naive. The TV are spinning it against the PM this morning, but they might find that the mood in the country becomes hardened, especially if the government now chooses to publicly start kicking the Polish by pointing out how much pork they constantly receive from the barrel.

          His isolation in Europe may well force Cameron to take a much harder line against his EU colleagues, because he knows that if Junker is put in place then there will be no more hiding the idea that renegotiation is actually dead in the water, and Cameron will look to his domestic position.

  • cambridgeelephant

    None of this would matter a jot if we just departed the corrupt, festering cess-pit of the EU and concentrated on getting ourselves right.

    • HookesLaw

      And be like Norway. Out of the EU but still subject to its trade rules. And free movement of Labour. Norway is in Schengen which is why we are better renegotiating from within rather than leaving and then trying to negotiate some altenative.

      Being like Norway may be a good idea – but its not that different from now.

      • Blindsideflanker

        Or be like Australia.

        Why should Norway be the only alternative

        • David

          Indeed – or like Switzerland, outside the EU and its tentacles but selling 4.5 times as much per head of the population as us…

          • HookesLaw

            or Germany?

            • global city

              on the path to ever closer political union?

            • Alexsandr

              Germany runs the EU money so has set everyone up to give them the best advantage in being in the euro. effectively had their currency undervalued for 10 years.

              • HookesLaw

                Ah – what a nice sad little planet you live on. Germany is of course not so impoverished is it, despite being in the EU. Germany prospered on an overvalued currency.

                • LB

                  Correct.

                  It was at the expense of other countries in the Eurozone.

          • DWWolds

            And on the cost/benefit analysis carried out by the Swiss in 2006 – the only one ever as far as I am aware – finding the EU membership would cost them 6 times their current bilateral agreements.

            • HookesLaw

              The figures referred to the contributions to EU funds and its less because they are not in the EU. Thats plain and we would pay in less if we were not in the EU – but thats not a ‘cost benefit analysis’. The Swiss and the Norway pay in to the EU but have no say over the rules they must then obey.

              • Fergus Pickering

                But we have no say either. When was the last time our concerns were listened to? I will tell you. Under Margaret Thatcher, that’s wehn.

          • Makroon

            If you chappies spent a little time understanding the economy and resources of your own country, you would not be so prone to making these daft comments.
            UK is a pretty unique country, the closest analogue might be Japan.

        • Holly

          Just what I was thinking.
          Why don’t we simply be more….English?

        • HookesLaw

          Australia a vast continental wide country with all its vast mineral wealth ?

          You want to be the only country of any remote note in Europe that is outside the EEA and the EU? The reality is we still have to deal with Europe and quite why anyone thinks we can work out something better if we walk out rather than from within then they are being a bit more than naive.
          Whatever the outcome will not be much different than now. And apart from basic racist ranting its hard to see just what all the anti EU invective is based on.
          Economically we get more than our share of inward investment – 20%. Ernst and Young say we get 41% of China’s European investment.

          • Smithersjones2013

            You want to be the only country of any remote note in Europe that is outside the EEA and the EU?

            Tut, tut, tut.

            Lying again. Switzerland is not in the EEA (but they are still in the World Cup).

            • HookesLaw

              They are a country which as the same relationship with the EU as Norway via various treaties. The Swiss also pay into EU funds. The Swiss are in Schengen as well – whilst we from within the EU were able to stay out.
              They are not in NATO either – but it has a co-operative agreement with them.
              20 to 25% of the Swiss population is immigrant.

              The nutjobs can howl but the EU is not going to go away and trying to deal with it would leave us little different out than in.

              • global city

                Is Japan thinking that about China, or Canada/Mexico in relation to the USA? What about South Korea….who shall it cleave to?

                That argument is bizarrely Foreign Office mandarin.

              • Smithersjones2013

                Its not the same relationship given he Swiss will have immigration quotas (being in Schengen does not mean you relinquish Border control).

                Not only that but you constantly refuse to acknowledge that only those who do business with the EU have to adhere to EU rules and as a result the vast majority would be free to carry on without EU interference and as the EU declines as an economic force so our relationship with them will decline.

                Now of course as we will become their largest export market they will also have to adhere to our standards too . Now I’m sure they will be flexible when it is in their interests to be so.

                Furthermore you can be pretty damn sure if the UK left the EU no Britiish Government would pay the EU anything hope to survive the next election.without a damn good reason.

                By the Hooky have you read this ( now don’t splutter into your bib when you do)?

                China’s banking leader rejects fears over British exit from EU

                http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27913698

                So the head of a Chinese Bank is a howling nutjob now is he?

                I don’t know why you bother anymore. Cameron’s toast after this Juncker episode anyway. Everyone’s gonna have it in for him. Europhiles, Eurosceptics, Euroagnostics everybody…..

                • HookesLaw

                  Do not be daft – we are going to produce different standards to the EU? We will suddenly start producing different emissions standards for cars in the EU? We are going to make it more expensive to produce our cars by making ourselves produce 1 standard for the EU and 1 standard for our home market?
                  Do the sums count the population of the EU and tell yourself we can ignore its markets. Thats European markets – markets tailor made for what we produce – not North American not South American not impoverished Africa not China. Of course we can sell to these places but do not pretend we can afford to ignore Europe.

                  You live in fantasy land.

                • Alexsandr

                  sorry. last time I looked cars for the EU are quite different. the steering wheel is on the other side, and the pedals, the lights point in a different direction.

                • HookesLaw

                  So? Cars made in Europe cope with that issue as well – take the cars they export to Japan for instance. So do cars made all over the world.
                  You wilfully ignore the point. And not just for cars but for a range of goods. A common marked of 400 million on our doorstep and we are going to develop different standards just for us? Listening to kippers we should adopt Australian standards.

                • saffrin

                  You are fixated with the EU.
                  The EU is bust, it is broke, it is not working, we will get poorer as a nation the longer we stay in.

                • Fergus Pickering

                  We are not ignoring Europe. It is the EU we don’t like. Not the same thing, you know.

            • global city

              The boss of the biggest of those Chinese investments said last week that the EU is irrelevant to their investment choice of the UK.

              • Smithersjones2013

                I know I’ve linked it.

                • global city

                  yes… nice one. That was supposed to be a response to one of hookey’s posts!

          • Alexsandr

            You want to be the only country of any remote note in Europe that is outside the EEA and the EU?
            well yes
            but more I want you to stop spouting that the only way is for the UK to be in the EEA. That is clearly untrue.

            • HookesLaw

              And what other alternative is there? None that can be laid out because no one can possibly know or guess what we may be able to negotiate if we were out of the EU.
              You need to stop spouting that all will be wine and roses if we leave the EU and life will be wonderfully different. The EU is a convenient bogeyman for you

              • Alexsandr

                My problem is you keep spouting that there is only 1 scenario that could result form a brexit. That is rubbish, There are a whole range of options we could go for. Mature discussion about the options would be a better and more mature way forward than calling everyone nutjobs.
                You also have to wake up to the fact the EU will not negotiate meaningfully with the UK. OK they may throw the odd sop but nothing meaningful. Some of us remember the 1975 referendum and Wilsons lies telling us he had got concessions when he had sops.

                • HookesLaw

                  And how much if at all better would those options be – you have no idea. Its impossible to tell – all speculation. A shot in the dark.
                  You now are another who is dismissing the notion of a referendum. Why should any of us care how the EU negotiate. If we do not like the result we can vote to come out.
                  But you do not want to vote for the party that would give you that vote.

                • saffrin

                  Cameron has no intention of giving the people a ‘straight’ IN/OUT referendum.
                  The best we can hope for from that Pillock is decades of negotiations designed to BS the people into thinking something is happening.

                • saffrin

                  Cameron has no intention of giving the people a ‘straight’ IN/OUT referendum.
                  The best we can hope for from that Pillock is decades of negotiations designed to BS the people into thinking something is happening.

              • saffrin

                Oh man, what a sad ba*tard you are.
                Such a tiny mind.

        • global city

          a false prospectus, so we hang on to Juncker’s skirt…presumably.

        • Makroon

          Australia is a sparsely populated continent which prospers by selling minerals to China.

      • global city

        Is the USA in the EEA…or China?

      • cambridgeelephant

        No ! We don’t want to be like Norway. We don’t want to be like Switzerland. We don’t even want to be like Justin Bieber – we just need to be ourselves.

        The fifth or sixth biggest economy – for the moment – in the world. One that buys far more from the EU than they do from us.

        But they – and we inside it – are shrinking, as the Euro is not quite the panacea of gold and riches that it’s more vociferous advocates proclaimed 14 years ago it would be.

        And as the world passes the EU by and the real growth takes place elsewhere – where does that leave us ?

        Standing in the rain in Brussels tugging our receding forelocks and hoping that something will turn up ? I say we can and should do better.

        If we survived for 1973 years and more before the then EEC, we can redouble our efforts and survive twice as long, without the need for Brussels rule.

        There’s also the simple question of ‘democracy’. I believe that the British people and they alone should elect their government. Not elect a bunch of satraps who cower before someone from Luxemboug. Or Berlin, for that matter.

        • Smithersjones2013

          Little Europeans like Hooky just lack the imagination and foresight to recognise such things

          • HookesLaw

            You really are thick if you thiknlk I am a little European. I would be happy enough in the EEA – there is only one other non EU country in it – but I am not fooled into thinking it would be any different to now.
            And somehow we would have to maintain our exclusion from Schengen. does anybody think Miliband would keep us out of Schengen?

            • saffrin

              What does it have to do with Miliband?
              If you think Labour have any chance of winning the next election, you are as daft as Harriet Harman.

        • HookesLaw

          The notion that we are ‘governed’ from the EU is overblown. As part of any trade deal, which would take months and years to negotiate, we would still have to agree common standards (thats what trade deals are all about) – and during that time how would investment confidence and industry fare?

          These notions about being free in the world and richer for it are so very Alex Salmondish I’m surprised you have the nerve to air them. A trade deal with the EU will leave us not much different to now.

          • Tony_E

            I’m afraid it’s not. The Civil service is now so interwoven with the EU structure that it is almost indistinguishable. That leaves the making of regulation and the direction of travel almost entirely dictated by both the EU and where there is influence above, the UN and other international organisations.

            Look at the flooding in Somerset this year. Where domestic policy has been usurped, you can see broad brush agendas being implemented not through hard legislation, but through creeping EU based group think and policy direction – Agenda 21 driving habitat policies driving Environment agency decision making.

            Jean Monet understood that the EU could not occur in the open, it had to happen in the shadows so that the people could not stop it. Once policy was so interwoven, it would be impossible to undo.

          • saffrin

            The EU is not the World.
            Once you understand that simple fact you will realise we don’t need the EU for anything.

          • Makroon

            You are spot on about that.
            UKIP, of course, have zero planning for D day +1, indeed Farage gives the firm impression that he is well aware that he is an opportunistic pressure-group, not some new party.
            But no, it would not “be like Norway” – we are a major economy that has been in and then would be out – expect major attrition.
            Norway is a peanut sized economy, heavily dependent on hydrocarbons and which has never been “in”.

        • Kennybhoy

          Fine last para.

  • @PhilKean1

    .
    “Senior Polish politicians are resigned to Britain leaving the EU in 2017 “

    Seriously, I just don’t know how much more of this bull I can take !

    For there to be the possibility of Britain leaving the EU in 2017, there first have to be British politicians who understand the danger of staying in the EU and who know that Britain will need to leave the EU WITHOUT holding a referendum.

    But any Polish or other EU leader who seriously thinks Britain will be leaving the EU in 2017 either doesn’t realise that David Cameron intends to stay in the EU under all circumstances, or – more likely – they are playing their silly mind games.
    .

    • HookesLaw

      They clearly have more sense than you – though thats not saying much. We will have a referendum in 2017 and you can vote.

      • @PhilKean1

        Responsible politicians would know that you can’t risk Britain’s destruction at the hands of a politically-ignorant and naive British public who may stupidly vote to stay in.

        That is one reason I don’t want a referendum. It is akin to asking a family to vote on whether the children should be allowed to take knives to school.

        The other reason is that it is simply impossible to win an in-or-out referendum as long as the Tory leader, ANY Tory leader, chooses to support the EU’s best interests at the expense of the British peoples’.
        .

        • HookesLaw

          A nice line in invention – yet another one.
          Then you resort to saying even if there is a referendum it cannot be won! You imply you want to subvert the will of the people. What a joker you are.

          • global city

            You love the conservatives. Cameron is your boyfriend!

            WTF

            • HookesLaw

              indeed WTF.
              what a saddo.

              • global city

                I just took my cue from your earlier post in response to philkean@

                People are entitled to hold any political view, but they are not allowed to peddle their own facts…..as they say.

              • Wessex Man

                I’m happy to see you admit at last!

                • HookesLaw

                  That don’t work.
                  What remains is a saddo joker making up excuses as to why he can vote so he will not get the referendum a short while ago he was demanding.
                  This is just another example of the loony planet you all live on – a planet without reason. You can rationalise anything to fit in with your prejudices.

                • Kennybhoy

                  Kenny is now weeping…

                • Wessex Man

                  with tears of laughter!

          • @PhilKean1

            (1) – I am a joker who knows that the British people were never asked whether they wanted the sacred powers they entrust to Parliament signed away to the EU.

            (2) – I know that British and European politicians have lied, tricked and cheated their way to forcing the British people into living under an EU dictatorship modelled on the Chinese one-party-state system.

            (3) – I know that we can’t possibly win an in-or-out referendum as long as ANY Tory leader decides to side with the EU, Labour and the Liberals.

            (4) – And I know that the British people will be subjected to the most intense and remorseless campaign of lies and exaggerations in order to scare them into voting to stay in the EU.

            Hows that for understanding about the true state of what passes for the will of the people.

            You and your ilk deem that democracy is only when we play the game by your rules.
            .

            • HookesLaw

              So you are getting your excuses in early. You are pathetic.
              You want a referendum. You get one. Then you make up a load of excuses so you don’t have to vote to get one. You would rather keep on moaning in your silly fantasy world.
              Thanks for exposing what a grade A nutjob you are.

              • Alexsandr

                cameron has history on EU referenda. He promised one in 2010 and didnt deliver. OK I know there was a caveat in the small print but as far as most people are concerned his word is suspect.

                • HookesLaw

                  Cameron did not promise a referendum in 2010. You are making it up to suit yourself.
                  Coming out with silly remarks like that hardly does you or what passes for your cause any good at all – you look plain stupid.

                  The conservative referendum promise in 2009 (when not in govt and the Lisbon treaty not ratified) was quite clear.

                • Fergus Pickering

                  Quite right, Hookey.

              • Kennybhoy

                Give me a break you lot! If I have to gie Hookey one mair up vote I will be reduced to tears…

              • @PhilKean1

                Show me where I have EVER asked for a referendum.

                The only people who are wanting a referendum are the delusional and gullible, and those who want to stay in the EU.
                .

        • Kennybhoy

          You don’t have much respect for the British electorate do you…?

          10/10 for honesty though…

      • Lucy Sky Diamonds

        Insulting people does not win arguments.

        • HookesLaw

          So why do these nutjobs go round insulting Poles and Romanians. Insult is the only language on offer.

          • global city

            Ooh…terrible attempt at deflection… who mentioned any group?

            Certainly not I

            • Wessex Man

              nor I.

              • global city

                Yes.

                I see a couple of people have mentioned poles and Romanians along this thread, so seemingly that makes it OK for him to transfer these sleights onto anyone else disagreeing with him.

            • HookesLaw

              I have a memory which goes back a few weeks.

              • global city

                If you can resurrect any disparaging remarks of mine about immigrants or any group of immigrants I’ll post you £10 for each one.

                I have constantly made the plea on here for political parties (UKIP) to confine discussing the issue of migration to the technical/constitutional point of MASS migration, but I’m sure you’re not referring to anything like that.

                I do this because that is how I actually see the issue, so, I’m intrigued as to what secret immigrant hate of mine you unearth.

                • HookesLaw

                  My comment was about ‘these nutjobs’ ( look around you will find a few about) and was to LSD not you. Cross back to the other side of the road and take offence there.

                • global city

                  That’s fine. I did point out to Wessex man actually that I did not think that you meant either of us….. but then you wrote that you remember some comment of mine from a few weeks ago.

                  I will not demand an apology for that error, as I’d already decided to explain above that this must be wrong….but still, that’s not very nice in itself.

                • HookesLaw

                  No I said I remembered from a few weeks ago. I never mentioned you. The plain fact is there are always comments attacking Poles and well anybody foreign (unless they are employed by Farage or being escorted back to their hotel by him on the eve of by elections). Scots Welsh you name it – its insult and hate a foreigner around here.

                • global city

                  OK, OK, let’s leave it there.

                  I agree with your statement there… some of those comments you mention just drain my will to live!

                  I think that you are wrong about Farage/UKIP as far as intent goes.

              • Wessex Man

                I wondered what your big problem was now you admit you can’t remember any omre that a few weeks.

        • Kennybhoy

          Pot. Kettle. Black.

      • Fergus Pickering

        If the Conservatives win the election. But we in UKIP will see to it that they don’t.

  • Hello

    It’s impressive how frequently Sikorski gets “accidentally” caught on tape in a rage, swearing. So, Poland has a rather theatrical foreign secretary: so what?

    He wants the EU foreign affairs job. What is a little concerning is that he evidently thinks that being anti-British is a good way to curry favour in Brussels at the moment. That was quite clear from his Marr interview yesterday.

    • HookesLaw

      The EU needs to be careful or they will get what they seem to want – ie an EU with us not in it.

      • southerner

        And you and Davey Wavey would cry yourselves to sleep.

        • HookesLaw

          Do not be thick. We can believe that we can live outside the EU – although I would not like to be a car worker, unless possibly we were in the EEA.
          This is the point – we can be in the EEA and not in the EU but there would be very little difference for us.
          I am happy to see Cameron do what renegotiations we can – it would be a good time since the EU wants to more closely integrate its Eurozone countries – I am happy to see what comes out. And then vote.
          I do know if I was a car worker or a worker reliant on the car industry I would think 10 times before voting to leave – and then probably vote to stay in. As a selfish pensioner I will look at what’s on offer.

          What we now see is kippers crying fix and working themselves into a hysteria before we even get that far and saying its a waste of time. Pathetic.

          • Tony_E

            Hookes, have a look at Dr Richard North’s site (if you haven’t already), http://www.eureferendum.com.

            He has a ‘Brexit/Flexit’ document which lays out what he thinks might be the solutions for the UK outside of the EU. Now I’m not endorsing it or rubbishing it – I’m only half way through it. But I have read his history of the EU (written with Chris Booker), and that was well researched and very readable.

            Have a look, see what you think of it.

            • Wessex Man

              You’ll never convince Hooky babe, that’s like trying to get Hitler to change his mind!

              • Kitty MLB

                Comparing Hooky to Hitler now?
                At least he doesn’t think everyone here should
                be ‘pure English’ whatever that is.

              • Fergus Pickering

                Hitler was always changing his mind.

          • Fergus Pickering

            One diferenc ethere would be is that we wouldn’t have to take more Romanian immigrants. That must be a plus, surely.

      • Smithersjones2013

        Well I think its a loss they are willing to bare. What they are seemingly getting fed up with is Dave’s mendacity. What they have obviously realised is that if they totally discredit the troublesome Dave (as if he could be more discredited) they’ll get Miliband the misfit who wouldn’t dream of holding a referendum or getting in the way of financial integration and might even be persuaded to join the Euro one day.

        Consequently, I wouldn’t be surprised to hear of more of these sort of revelations to utterly discredit Dave in the run up to the general election which will destroy his referendum pitch and with it his re-election chances.

        If I was a Tory I’d be a tad concerned about this development……..

        • Fergus Pickering

          But why should we believe any employee of the EU. I wouldn’t trust them to tell me the time. The last time they slagged off a British Prime Minister it was Margaret Thatcher. She managed to bear it.

          • Makroon

            The UKIP agenda is anti-“Dave” first, their hatred of the EU comes somewhat further down the list.

            • Fergus Pickering

              How people do like telling other people what they think. I have no hatred of Dave at all. He is not a bad Prime Minister and he would be even better if he could keep his temper and not surround himself with people from the same background as he has. If only he were half the man Maggie was. But, having said that, six and a half out of ten, even seven. I shall be sorry to see him go but he has ceased to be of use now the Coalition is doomed. Five years if probably enough for most PMs don’t you think. Besides, it’s making him red-faced and fat..

      • global city

        That’s exactly what they want….in the long run.

        All this talk of the UK being a counter and ally of Germany pretends that the EU is some sort of intergovernmental project.

      • Wessex Man

        well there’s a changed attitude, it couldn’t be because of an earlier comment about Call me Dave at last waking up could it?

        No Hooky babe’s not bright enough!

  • Bert3000

    What we learned (if we didn’t already know) is that Cameron is a national embarassment.

  • Mike

    Poland probably more than any other EU member country has a lot to lose if the UK leaves as no longer will it get a share of Britains subsidy to Brussels but all of its citizens claiming benefits for families at home will suddenly return to Poland increasing unemployment and costs to Poland.

    Lets cut the BS here, no EU country really wants the UK to live as it will cost them dear but we need to play hard ball to regain our self determination and if that means leaving, so be it.

    • HookesLaw

      Well you are right. And of course if Cameron talks straight to the rest of the EU the anti Cameron nutjobs here still invent complaints.
      If we do not want Junkner as President then we should make our opinions known. Simple – if the EU are thin skinned about it then sad for them but its something they will have to get used to since we will have a referendum in 2017 – as long as the tories are elected. Maybe they are hoping UKIP ensures that does not happen.

      • global city

        it’s all just one long macabre dance we’re being forced to indulge. Cameron probably found out that it was his role to lead the sheep into a pro EU vote that would see us inside the project forever when he was fresh into Eton.

        You’re just playing patsy… willingly or otherwise.

      • Wessex Man

        you really live in a detached la la land don’t you?

        • HookesLaw

          No you are detatched. Its la la land to pretend that any arrangement we have if we leave the EU will be much different to now and we also have the added danger that we will be pushed into Schengen.

          • Smithersjones2013

            Oi Hooky. You better go and have a chat with your masters in Downing Street because Dave’s starting to disappear along the road to Article 50.

            It comes amid reports that Mr Cameron was telling leaders he was considering threatening to recommend Britain vote ‘No’ – a vote to leave the EU – in any
            future European referendum
            to push the EU towards undertaking real reform.

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10920040/David-Cameron-may-campaign-to-leave-EU-if-Juncker-is-appointed-No-10-suggests.html

            He can’t cry wolf about withdrawal. No one will take him seriously. He will have to follow through on it

            What are you going to do with all your desperate years of defending the EU if Dave does call for withdrawal?

            • Wessex Man

              First comment awaiting approval soon to vanish, so he will probably emigrate to Eastern Europe!

      • Mike

        I’m not sure what your point really is in truth I can’t see the EU agreeing to anything meaningful that the country (NOT Cameron) wants and sooner than later I’m confident we’ll leave with or without UKIP. If UKIP gained the balance of power inside of 5-6 years, I’m sure it will happen sooner rather than later.

        The EU commission knows full well what most British people think of Van Rompuy, Barrossa and all the other unelected snouts in the trough and it certainly knows what we think about a drunk Lëtzebuerger.

        • HookesLaw

          If the EU do not come up with a good deal than we can vote accordingly. If the EU really want us to leave then they could give us nothing. The reality is the EU and the Eurozone need to change and we need to have a different relationship if we are to stay in.
          There will have to be negotiations and the result will be voted on. This is not a zero sum game for the EU – if they do not come up with something acceptable, if they ignore the UK, then we may well vote OUT. But thats in 2017 and the only way we will get a vote is if we have a Conservative govt.
          Already we see kippers making up excuses as to why they should split the right wing vote and let in labour – Europhile labour who are not promising a referendum.
          Labour present a massive danger to the UK and i am not voting to let them back – especially when we can have a referendum in 2017.

          • LB

            It’s a positive for all if the UK leaves, if both sides are sensible.

            If the EU plays silly games, the EU loses, and the UK does too. However, the EU loses more.

            Shipping out migrant welfare claimants would be one thing.

            If the EU plays games on trade, remember there is a trade deficit. They would lose more.

            • Tony_E

              Don’t kid yourself LB, it will be a massive defeat for the EU if Britain leaves.
              We are a massive net financial contributor. We also have very good comparative GDP figures (which contribute to the EU illusion of stability).

              But most importantly, if we are successful outside the EU, then we put the lie to the sword. The pork barrel cannot continue without the contributions of the big players. France is in terminal decline, Germans will not play mother bountiful forever, so where ore the other nett contributors?

              Without us, the superstate looks politically closer – but in reality is just less affordable and actually less likely.

          • Rog Tallbloke

            Their lordships torpedoed the last referendum bill. What makes you think they won’t do the same to the next one?

            Dave gave us a ‘cast iron guarantee’ before the last election.
            He lied.
            What makes you think he’s not lying this time?

        • Fergus Pickering

          Is he drunk? One thing in his favour then.

  • Tony_E

    Let’s have a look at this in detail:

    1) He thinks Cameron will lose the election and the UK will leave in 2017. Clearly this Jacek Rostowski is a total and utter f##king idiot. If Cameron loses the election, there will be no renegotiation and no referendum.

    2) It hardly matters what they think of his strategy, it’s about what his voters think about it. If he f##ked up the fiscal pact, (in Euroland speak), then the chances are he was exactly right on it, because Euroland bought into it’s own stupid currency on the back of a lot of fictional accounting, and it’s their f##king problem.

    3) Tusk should mind his manners – who does this ignorant f##k think he is having a right go at an elected British PM. Cameron is here to look out for British interests, not Polish. If they don’t like it, then they can f##king well swivel!

    (Is that in keeping with the general tone…..?)

    • LB

      And how will Poland cope with all the low paid low skilled migrants returning? ie. Start off. No Poles on welfare in the UK, because you just cancel payments for the non contributory elements.

      The UK keeps the skilled, if the skilled want to stay.

      • telemachus

        The Poles are the most hard working of all immigrants and whatever the outcome we will find a formula to let them stay

        • Inverted Meniscus

          Surely by the laws of leftism it is racist to imply that one race is harder working than another. You have really upset all those poor Romanians reading your comment.

          • telemachus

            Just an observed fact
            If you have recently had building work you will know what I mean
            Your childish assumptions about left and right clearly miss the point
            It is tolerance Meniscus
            Tolerance
            Invert that

            • Wessex Man

              You! you slimy liar seek to lecture IM about tolerance, you don’t kwow the meaing of the word you you Labour toad!

            • MirthaTidville

              I have had recent building work done, but mine was entirely with British Labour. I dont use any other…Quisling

              • Kennybhoy

                Socialist! :-)

            • Inverted Meniscus

              Gibberish and dishonesty as usual.

              • Kitty MLB

                Yes well that is him. A tree sprite, hiding in
                corners, whispering deceit in ears.

            • Ben

              You saying the Poles are better than Roma or Somalians?

              You racist bigot

            • ian channing

              Nope, he’s right and you are a racist, telemachus. A knuckle-dragging, bigoted, intolerant racist. I thought from your 498,347 anti-UKIP posts over the last five years that you understood there is no such thing as ‘race,’ and all peoples are inherently equal (even if they are Polish)? How wrong we all were. Dear oh dear. You have insulted all of the peoples of Europe except one. Plus, you’re wrong. The Chinese are far more hard working than the Poles.

        • LB

          Harder than Brits?

          What do you do about Poles on welfare?

        • Kitty MLB

          What about the misunderstood Romanians and those from
          Arab Countries ( your new core voters) wouldn’t upset them
          if I were you. So not all immigrants are equal… your on shaky
          ground with that statement little wasp.

          • Roger Hudson

            What? you gave them a vote? idiot.

            • Kitty MLB

              What are you rattling on about, don’t answer.

        • global city

          Are you saying that they are better than others?

          That’s waysist!

        • LB

          So the Poles on welfare who aren’t working, need to stay.

          Yeah, right.

        • Fergus Pickering

          How on earth do you know that?

      • HookesLaw

        How many Poles are on welfare in the UK?

        • telemachus

          Less than UK born white

          • Inverted Meniscus

            You have no means of knowing that it is just another unsubstantiated assertion to support your preposterous leftist agenda.

          • Holly

            Precisely why we are so T’d off with Labour, and their disaster of an immigration policy.

          • LB

            Ah, the racist response.

            Brits bad. Migrants better.

          • Wessex Man

            Double Idiot!!!!! zzzzzzzzzzzz

        • LB

          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10271855/Number-of-foreign-nationals-on-benefits-soars-to-400000.html

          400K migrants on welfare.

          Since migrants (no refugees) are optional, that is 400K too many.

          • HookesLaw

            How many from Poland. 139,000 from eastern Europe – some of whom will have been paying NI payments. This compared with the millions of British on benefits.
            and …. “Still, it is worth noting that this group made up less than 1 per cent of total working age benefit claims in February 2012, while accounting for 2 per cent of the UK population according to 2011 Census data.”

            There is no argument we need to limit immigration – its govt policy and was in the tory manifesto – and that includes people from outside the EU as well.
            But we also need to look at why millions of British who should be available for work can not be bothered. the two go together. That is not the fault of anyone from Poland.

            • LB

              NI pays for JSA. I’m quite prepared to honour that commitment.

              The other welfare issues. No. Far better to say no to those migrants.

              Simple objective test. Do you pay more tax than the cost of having you here?

              For a migrant on welfare, by definition, the answer is no.

              • HookesLaw

                Studies seem to show that they do pay their way. The govt are tightening welfare rules.
                Non of this answers why our own people are unemployable and do not want to be employed.

                • Ben

                  Some studies do. Depends who did the studying. Other studies which decline to twist the narrative and bend the truth show that post 1997 mass immigration has had a hugely detrimental effect economically on the people of UK.

                • LB

                  No they don’t.

                  The average spend per person per year, is 11.5K. Easy to work out. Total spending dividend by population.

                  Then look at wages.

                  ===============
                  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085431/Average-migrant-worker-earns-year-UK-British-born.html

                  t said that in 2008, a British-born person in the UK living in a house with two or more adults but no children could expect a median disposable income of 25,647ppp, while someone born abroad in a country outside the EU living in a similar home could expect to earn 26,267ppp.

                  For a couple with children, income for each British-born adult in a home would be 19,530ppp, against 18,296 for those born abroad.
                  ===============

                  OK, its 2008. Very difficult getting the numbers for any year.

                  Now on those figures, and a tax calculator like http://www.listentotaxman.com/ you can do the checks yourself.

                  Migrants do not pay their way when you look at them on an average basis. Neither do Brits. There’s no real difference. Migrants aren’t super beings, and Brits aren’t basket cases. There’s no real difference.

                  That’s the generalisation argument. Migration doesn’t hold up to analysis.

                  Now for individual cases. Here its different. There are migrants who make net contributions. For others they are net consumers of other people’s money. Somewhere in the middle is a boundary.

                  For someone accruing pension rights, its around the 18K in tax a year mark. For a child, 11.5K.

                  So post some numbers. Real pound numbers. Not waffle GDP percentages.

                  I’ll make another prediction. If you quote the obvious study, CREAM, it has no pound numbers and it ignores pensions. It tries the generalisation route. It’s racist.

                • Mike

                  Studies don’t factor in cost of education for kids, health costs and housing benefit. There are many hidden costs difficult to quantify but they are there.

                • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

                  The cost of first generation immigrants is spared though. They have ready, educated workforce at no cost. You seem to be also forgetting other benefits which UK got from Poland, as you obsessing over “EU immigration”. If you do not know what I am talking about – ask Mr Mittal where he got money to buy half of properties at Kensington Palace Gardens.

                • Fergus Pickering

                  Lots of people would prefer to sit on their arses on someone else’s money. It’s quite natural but it doesn’t mean they should be allowed to do it.

            • LB

              Migrants are optional.

              Brits are not.

              • Kitty MLB

                The whole anti English leftie plan was to crowd
                England with immigrants who will be ‘grateful’
                And vote Labour and all the English people
                will leave.

            • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

              Not true – learn to read with understanding and then comment mr smart pants. This number includes all EU immigration (and numbers are compiled by Telegraph, which openly supports UKiP, so do not expect fair representation – oops, sorry Spectator).

              • Makroon

                Hookes Law was actually supporting your argument – but don’t let that small detail interfere with your resentment.

                • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

                  I am a statistician so more interested in correct classification rather than the big picture.

              • Fergus Pickering

                Where did you get the idea the Daily Telegraph supports UKIP? It does not.

            • edward

              its also a feature of idiots like you to despise and have no confidence in the native population.

            • Damaris Tighe

              There’s a lot of truth to your last paragraph. We have undereducated undisciplined people living permanently off welfare & the jobs they should be doing have to be done by east europeans instead.

              This is not the british underclass’s fault. They have been given a poor education & denied the leg up the grammar schools used to offer. Successive governments have written them off, allowed them to wallow for life on benefits & then imported the foreign labour to do the jobs they should be doing.

        • Wessex Man

          IDIOT!

        • Roger Hudson

          What do you mean by ‘a Pole’? Recent arrival?, child of WW2 fighter pilot? Not a people to sit on welfare for years.

      • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

        Immigrants from Poland are at least skilled, more often then not highly skilled. And every one of them in a benefit to UK and a loss to Poland. You must have confused Poles with some other, less fortunate cohorts. Easily done, since you take those unskilled in to run your banks, telecoms and insurance companies.

        • Mike

          The immigration policies that most people want is to allow those that work, contribute and are needed in the work place to stay. All others should be kicked out and that will affect the majority of Romanians, most Bulgarians and a fair chunk of Poles living in the UK and drawing benefits.

        • Fergus Pickering

          I gather about half a million immigrants are stealing our benefits. Are there no Poles among that number?

      • Tomasz Romanowski

        You got it totally backwards bud. Poland is not benefitting from that mass emigration. We have lost 1-2mln of motivated, hardworking labor force anywhere from non-skilled through craftsmen, engineers high-techies to artists. Not to mention the mere loss of the population. Polish government wishes for them to start coming back but for now… well it is what it is.

        • LB

          I was only talking about it from the UK’s point of view. From that position, pulling in the high skilled high paid, from wherever in the world is good for the UK. Similarly pulling in low skilled migrants is bad.

          Now for Poland’s view of the situation, its pretty much the reverse.

          The only win-win I can see is if there is an equal exchange. But that isn’t the case.

    • Inverted Meniscus

      Agreed. Their attitude seems to be frustration that they will no longer be able to leech off of us if we leave the EU. As for the suggestion that the UK will leave in 2017 if the Tories lose the 2015 election, you really have to laugh at these preposterous, greedy, EU- addicted morons.

      • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

        You have no idea – its UK (et Al) who leached Poland dry of its mineral resources and national capital. And now Polish PhDs have no choice but to clean your bogs for minimum wage. Curtesy of Mayfair.

        • edward

          That is why it was absolute madness to allow Poland to join the EU in the first place and then give them unrestricted access to our Labour market.

          Also you seem to have ignored the affect of first Hitler and then Stalin on the fortunes of Poland.

          • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

            Quite the opposite. The effect on Poland from the free flow of capital and goods was very negative and long lasting for Poland and very positive for UK. The effect on UK from free flow of people from Poland was very positive for the UK economy and negative for Polish economy and Polish human capital. I do not get your arguments about Hitler and Stalin – and frankly you do not even seem well versed in European history and sound rather like Asian immigrant.

            • telemachus

              Poland is the single most important example of the benefit of the EU to the Peace of the World
              We have to consider in respect of recent events in Crimea and now East Ukraine just where we would be were Poland not a fully integrated member of the EU
              *
              A side effect, beneficial to the UK, is that we gain the benefit of the manificent industry of Polish immigrants whose warmth towards the English is equally magnificent
              *
              The media is infested with little Englanders that makes the reasonable among us ashamed

              • global city

                You spelt NATO wrong there telemachus.

                • wudyermucuss

                  You actually read his post?

                • global city

                  I always try to. Once in a blue moon he says something interesting. Last week he even wrote a successful funny!

              • Makroon

                “Warmth toward the English” ? As expressed by their Foreign Minister I suppose.
                The truth is, the majority of Poles, competing with the undereducated and unmotivated lower orders of the British labour market, have had their already high opinion of themselves, further boosted.
                On the basis of this experience they cordially despise the Brits as idle, thick and greedy, but somehow, (probably by robbing Poland of it’s birthright), unaccountably wealthy.

                • telemachus

                  No there is a warm fellow feeling from the war

                • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

                  You are mistaken. Please do not pull well known trick “someone said something bad about the other”. Its called hate mongering.

            • Inverted Meniscus

              Are you suggesting that the German/ Russian invasion of Poland in 1939and its subsequent occupation and division had no negative effect? You might like to brush up on your own understanding of history and desist from the type of bigoted, disgusting remark made in your final sentence.

              • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

                Yes, but that is hardly an argument against Poland moving back to Europe, quite the opposite. As for my alleged “disgusting bigotry’ I firmly believe that IF someone is an immigrant themselves, especially from ‘competing’ region, their anti EU argumentation sounds faux in my ears.

              • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

                Quite funny, in 2002 my Indian friend saw the footage from Warsaw. He was very surprised that Warsaw was very much like any other European city. He imagined and expected to see something completely different, after what he heard about post communist Europe on BBC.

            • http://www.workinprogress.com Nicetime

              “I do not get your arguments about Hitler and Stalin – and frankly you do not even seem well versed in European history and sound rather like Asian immigrant.”
              You do not get his arguments about Hitler and Stalin in relation to Poland’s national wealth? What in God’s name are you talking about?

            • Mike

              One could argue about the pros and cons for the UK but Poland had a choice to join the EU club as Germany didn’t try a repeat match against them. They joined voluntary with their eyes wide open knowing full well the benefits they could glean from the UK’s benefit system that saved them a bundle on their domestic policies.

              As for these idiots Jacek Rostowski and Radek Sikorski, they’re welcome to their views but we will do what we want and ALL the bankrupt Med states and Eastern European states will be poorer as a result without our 8 billion annual contribution.

              So much for going to war in 1939 in support of Poland against German agression, thats thanks for you !!!

              • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

                We are much poorer as a result of pirate privatisation of our national wealth and mineral resources – to the benefit of EU. Just because you, Mr Mike, are not lucky enough to count yourself among top 1% who got the spoils, lets not pretend that it never happened.
                You think we are better off after 10 years of Union with UK? Listen to this: when I was at school, average Polish family could afford to bring up and educate 2.5 children in maths, physics, chemistry and engineering. Now we have 1.3 children per family, educated in gender and other fun, but little useful studies. Back in 1989, we had national wealth and human capital, what we were missing was individual economic freedom. In 2014 we have no national wealth, our PhDs cleaning bogs at London bus stations while big, foreign corporations installed themselves on Polish markets, dodging taxes and annihilating S&MEs.

              • Cierpisław Modliboga

                Britain did not go to war in 1939. Whole nation hid cowardly on it’s island even though Britain promised to respond in case of German invasion. UK does not contribute much to UE’s wealth. I hope it leaves UE soon and as a result of that it’s economy will collapse due to banking sector leaving for a better market in EU or Asia.

                • La Fold

                  Rubbish of the highest order! And as for cowardly, did we get wiped off the map? Again? Poland, Nazism and Communism?50 years of failure.

            • Fergus Pickering

              Your English is a bit dodgy, mate. Back to your toilets.

              • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

                Are you on high or something? Get some sleep, maybe it will help.

                • Fergus Pickering

                  It’s the use of the word ‘the’ you foreigners often find difficult. Study harder. It will come.

        • Inverted Meniscus

          As if I care.

        • global city

          I don’t doubt that, but it is your elites who are determined to stay inside the project as they are the ones who will personally benefit. Why be the PM of Poland when you could sit round a table discussing issues covering the whole continent?

          it’s an elite ego thing.

          • Roger Hudson

            An ‘elite’ bank balance thing.

            • global city

              and the power, the sheer grandiosity of knowing you boss the lives of hundreds of millions and they can no longer be rid of you and your stupid ideas!

              and the money helps too, as it’s lavished on them.

        • Makroon

          I agree with you that we have benefitted from Polish immigration, but as for “mineral resources” that really shows that you don’t have much idea.
          You should try to get out of the mind-set that the EU is some sort of charity which is short-changing poor old Poland.
          In sunnier times, Spain and Ireland succeeded in capturing large amounts of EU money – those days have definitely ended.
          You can look forward to being a branch-economy of Germany, picking up the low margin manufacturing bits – unless you learn to stand on your own feet, and look to your long-term real interest.

          • Mike

            Spain is still a net beneficiary from the EU pot of money whilst Britain still pays in 8 billion annually. The scale of largesse that Spain receives may have diminished but its still a positive cash flow deal. In contrast, Ireland despite being bailed out previously and pre-dominantly by the UK on its own, is now a new contributor like the UK to the EU coffers. Smacks of racism against Anglo Saxons if you ask me !

        • La Fold

          Cobblers! Absolute Cobblers! Not one British person has forced your PhDs to come to britian to clean toilets for a minimum wage. What happened is after Polish citizens were granted freedom of movement after gaining full memebership of the EU they come over to Western Europe in droves in search of a more opportunities and a better life. And why was that? Not because Britain had drained your natural resources but because they wanted to, because they wanted to leave Poland for their own personal reasons.

          • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

            Lets see what would you do as a pharmacist if all british Pharma closed and moved R&D units to Switzerland and USA. Nobody would “force you” to leave, right?

        • Tomasz Romanowski

          Relaaax Korwin, you taking it way too far. Whom are you arguing with anyway? :)

      • Tomasz Romanowski

        At first, I thought it was a forum with folks on a certain level. I guess I was wrong. Take care!
        Sincerely, preposterous, greedy, EU-addicted moron, straight from a “spastic nation” :)

        • Inverted Meniscus

          Kindly refrain from attributing the phrase “spastic nation” to me. I did not use it and your suggestion that I did is disgusting and dishonest.

          • Tomasz Romanowski

            Haha, my bad, it was another commenter, presumably your compatriot, a few posts above. I’m really sorry you got soo offended and found it “disgusting” and “dishonest”. I’m assuming you found everything else accurate.

            • Inverted Meniscus

              No I just ignore idiots like you save for your disgusting incorrect attributions.

              • Tomasz Romanowski

                Boy you are flawless!! Anyway, I’m done with you and this website so feel free to write whatever. Have a good life!

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  You too. Assuming you can ever remove that massive chip from your shoulder.

                • https://twitter.com/babbdbd bb

                  hang in with me-

                • https://twitter.com/babbdbd bb

                  so so clear that we struck a little chord in the ‘carry on’ crowd out there- i don’t have a ‘chip’/ i have ‘resolve’/ will miss good threads

          • Tomasz Romanowski

            Haha, my bad, “spastic nation” came from another commenter a few posts above, presumably a compatriot of yours. I’m deeply sorry you found the comment “disgusting” and “dishonest”. I’m assuming you found the rest correct.

        • https://twitter.com/babbdbd bb

          liked ur comments/ i’m late as always- (not too many poles on these sites- since most poles wouldn’t even bother with this- but it needs to be done)

    • telemachus

      This of course is what most reasonable Brits think as well
      *
      Cameron sadly at the moment is being led by racist Farage whose crazy jibes against the Romanians are deeply offensive to the Poles

      • global city

        Yes, definitely a piss take.
        You sure can sustain your ‘character’ though!

      • Wessex Man

        liar liar pants on fire!

      • Kennybhoy

        “… crazy jibes against the Romanians are deeply offensive to the Poles”

        Now I am certain that you havnae much experience with Poles if you think this! They widnae gie a Romanian the steam aff a keech! lol

      • saffrin

        Cameron is being led by the electorate that have turned to Farage.

      • Fergus Pickering

        What do the Poles care about Romanians?. They were not over keen on Jews during the Hitler business. I shouldn’t think they have much love for gypsies.

    • goatmince

      The chap’s not stupid, unlike many here.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …many of your army of sockpuppets?

    • Donafugata

      Sikorski will say whatever he thinks necessary to keep Britain in the EU.
      He knows that if ever we find a way out, Poland will, among other spastic nations, have to rely on the Germans for a free lunch.

      He doesn’t mind that the Germans will pay but it would be so much tastier with a contribution from the UK.

      • Tomasz Romanowski

        “….Poland will, among other spastic nations, have to rely on the Germans for a free lunch.”

        Huh? :)

    • HookesLaw

      You are correct

    • Conway

      You mean Cameron is supposed to look out for British interests. Whether he does or not is open to debate.

      • Tony_E

        Well the Poles aren’t pissed off with him for nothing. I usually take the line that if the EU noses in the trough are kicking off, then the government is probably on the right line.

    • sarah_13

      That really made me laugh. Brilliant.

    • commenteer

      I think he was actually referring to the planned referendum rather than the next general election.

      • Inverted Meniscus

        He does refer to losing elections rather than a referendum however or are you his interpreter?

        • commenteer

          I heard it on Newsnight, and the context suggested that was what he meant. That was the interpretation of Peter Lilly and Roland Rudd, who were being interviewed on the subject.

      • Tony_E

        That was a point that was made last night too, and may well turn out to be correct – however, he was the one ranting so I’m merely throwing his own words back at him for a little light hearted effect.

    • Bandmomma

      I couldn’t have put it better myself Tony; arrogant peasants!

    • Makroon

      This is the dummest yet blog-post from Hardman.
      The Poles are in it for the free money, surprise, surprise, that is all we have “learnt”.
      Oh, and these drunken, opportunistic clowns also dismissed the US alliance as useless BTW.
      I wonder what they said about Merkel – still to be revealed.
      If Cameron ever saw Poland as “a reliable ally” (I hope not), he has been nicely disabused.
      The Poles are famous for having a high opinion of themselves, Hardman thinks we have hurt their feelings. You have to laugh.

  • Holly

    Mmmm.
    Now, do I worry about what foreign politicians dislike when politicians elected here don’t ‘play nice’, and ‘hurt their feelings?…..
    NUP.
    The more we annoy them the better I feel in my decision to vote ‘OUT’ when I get my grubby little mitts on an EU referendum ballot paper.
    The scraps that Cameron manages to eke out of the EU will not make me change the way I will vote either, so they might as well just carry on moaning.

    • global city

      Yes. Farage and all his pals should be sh*tstirring as much as possible, telling the europhiles how the Brits are bound to destroy their utopia if we are allowed to remain inside.

      He should tell them that we are secretly working with the US and Israel to take over the banks and industry and have a plan to either run the ‘defence force’ or bomb their bases.

  • LadyDingDong

    Now this has made me really angry. Just who do these parasites living off our contributions think they are? I spent the weekend on my yacht in Dover Marina and the town was absolutely full of Poles (and Romanians) with their numerous children. Every one of them will be in receipt of some form of benefit and much of it will be sent back home – they are universally despised by the locals. I have always supported the Poles because of their bravery in the war but from now on they join the French in my gallery of those I dislike.

    • Holly

      It did not make me ‘angry’, it made me happy that my opinion of Europe, the way it is run, and the snivelling bods Cameron has to ‘deal’ with, was/is, bang on.
      Long may they continue proving us correct eh.
      See it as a PLUS not a minus, and it genuinely warms your heart.

    • Mike

      Its a completely different generation of Poles now and just like our own feckless younger generations, they also want a free ride at someone elses expense.

    • Terry Field

      locals are not exactly open hearted to incomers are they? Mean-minded modern British values – sod the rest – we are the best!

      • Wessex Man

        oh do get a life!

      • La Fold

        And the poles are so very friendly to foreigners? Nothing made me laugh more than the omnipotent Graffitti when in Bydgoszcz which said “Poland for the Poles!”

        • Terry Field

          We are all tribal omnivores who like to kill each other when the occasion arises.
          We are in a disconcerting lull at present.
          I am sure normal service will be resumed shortly.

          • La Fold

            That the best you could come up with Tel? Weak.

    • LB

      The problem with your generalisation, is there aren’t Poles that fit the description. There are lots who do.

      We need the right sort.

    • HookesLaw

      You could count them all from your yacht with your telescope could you? I doubt that many of them are as nasty as the Brit who stabbed one in the back in Dover last year. He of course made a racist comment on being arrested.

      • southerner

        Was it similar to the racist comment you posted the other week?

        • HookesLaw

          No racist comment from me. You are the sad bigot.

          • LB

            Hold on Hookes. You were the one claiming that migrants were better because they were less likely to be on welfare.

            A tad racist in my view, against Brits.

            • HookesLaw

              Better?
              Stop being so desperate.
              Answer why we have so many on benefits when work is available? Why are they unemployable why do they not want work?

              • Kennybhoy

                “Why are they unemployable why do they not want work?”

                And as so often in the past answer comes there none…

        • Kitty MLB

          Are these the racist comments Farage uses
          to manipulate and get the sympathy vote

          • southerner

            Nope. The one that Hooky devised of his own volition whilst hypocritically calling everyone else who disagrees with him a racist.

      • Wessex Man

        You idiot, My Lady was being ironic, something you’ve never encountered before?

  • Blindsideflanker

    It shows these Polish politicians don’t have a clue, and like all European politicians think that if only the EU sceptic electorate were ignored then everything would be fine. They also it seems don’t understand that Cameron was attempting to protect mass immigration free movement of people, by attempting to divert peoples attention to benefit tourism.

    • Donafugata

      The Polish politicians know which side their bread is buttered and intend to keep it that way.

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