Coffee House The Spectator Podcasts

Podcast: the betrayal of British Muslims and the new Iraq war

12 June 2014

9:50 AM

12 June 2014

9:50 AM

Do we need to take more action to tackle the Islamist threat in British schools? On this week’s View from 22 podcast, The Spectator’s Douglas Murray and Matthew Parris debate this week’s cover feature on whether the Birmingham ‘Trojan Horse plot’ is the results of years of weak policy and inaction. Should we wait until there is more concrete proof before taking drastic actions? Is the promotion of British values the right solution, and how can the government go about defining and teaching these values?

James Forsyth and Isabel Hardman also discuss how the West Lothian Question will be addressed at the next election. Where do all of the parties stand on English nationalism? What can we expect in the next Conservative manifesto about the union? And what does JK Rowling’s £1 million donation to the Better Together campaign show about the state of the independence debate?

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Plus, former solider Tom Tugendhat and Fraser Nelson discuss the new Iraq war and the threat of ISIS in the region. After taking the second largest town in Iraq, Mosul, where might they attack next? Who are ISIS and are they a friend or foe of Al-Qaeda?

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Show comments
  • Terry Field

    Islam is a potent danger to British life – FAR more dangerous and evil than communism ever was.

  • Terry Field

    I see I am being pre-censored by the Spectator Blogs / Home Office thought control department.

  • andyrwebman

    What is “Islamism” if not simple literal Islam? And what is a “moderate” member of any religion but a well meaning hypocrite who isn’t willing to endorse publicly the values of a religion they claim is theirs?

    Wooly thinking prevails in this debate

  • Simon Fay

    “the betrayal of British Muslims”

    A self-styled bastion of common sense trots out this same stuff as readily as those it seeks to score points against for its parliamentary wing.

    I dare say Britain “murdered” the Tube bombers as well.

  • Terry Field

    Nobody has betrayed British moslems. They are free to do what they do. That is all.

  • Donafugata

    The reason that Islam has had such an astonishing success infiltrating and subverting our institutions, schools, local government and God only knows what else, is because we have had cowardly governments that are too afraid to offend the “community” and have turned a blind eye to what has been happening.

    At last the iceberg is visible but the most visually challenged among them still can’t see it.

    A good start would be to deprive cheats, bullies and gerrymanderers of money.

    • Bonkim

      British Institutions have not been subverted by Muslims – they have undergone rapid changes over the past decades due to major changes across the globe and also faster communications and exposure to global media and their homogenising effects – all that means rapid change with the players uncertain where they are heading. Subversion is an internal mechanism and doubt if the Muslims have the clout or intelligence to plan any pre-planned undermining of British Institutions. The Muslim community is generally isolationist and live in voluntary apartheid. The Birmingham schools saga although annoying is but a tiny fraction of the major events shaping Britain.

      • SidneyCordle

        The first Mosque was built in Woking in 1889. The first in London was 1924 just 90 years ago. We have allowed this religion to take hold having no idea what it stands for. Only now is the reality coming to light. It is a massively expansionist religion. All Muslims have to do Da’wah, proselytizing. They also do Taquia, http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/116862. This is lying to deceive your enemies and all non Muslims are their enemies. Bonkim’s comments are a clear example of Taquia.

        • Bonkim

          Britain over all others have intimate knowledge of Islam and lands and people of Islam. Significant parts of British Imperial history is to do with dealings with Islamic lands and people. Converting others is a duty of Muslims as it is of Christians – their Book commands them to do so. Christian missionaries have followed the Empire builders and converted the conquered in great numbers – in fact all today’s followers of both Islam and Christianity have been converted at some instance in history often forcibly or in many cases as a convenient way to better themselves or seek safety. Most people in Britain ignore Muslims – and laws exist which can be applied to prevent any subversive elements.

          • Terry Field

            crap. Mega-crap

            • Bonkim

              You know sod all about British history or about the British.

              • Terry Field

                You are wrong. I am a professor of History in prestigious universities. You are a foul mouthed intellectual lightweight – and a fellow traveller.

                • Bonkim

                  Good luck Prof – as a Prof in prestigious Universities you ought to know that experience and ability to link cause and effect are the basics of analysis. Taking sides defeats logical analysis and for a Prof deadly. You sound more like a BNP street-rabble-rouser with a one track mind.

                • Terry Field

                  This forum is a home of – sometimes – witty banter. or moronic interchange, depending on the condition of the spleen- I take it yours is in a bad state!

                • Bonkim

                  or ignorant and bigoted rants by some.

        • Terry Field

          I like a Taquia sunrise on the rocks.
          We are on the rocks, as well.

          • SidneyCordle

            So to you lies and deceit are funny. Maybe sometimes but when a religion does it to gain political power is that funny?

      • Terry Field

        The subversion is white local and non-moslem – the indigenous leadership has done this and continues undisturbed.

        • Bonkim

          Depends upon you level of mental development and capacity to analyse events and human behaviour.

    • Terry Field

      And a gutless, degenerate, arrogantly post-imperial, fellow-traveler civil service and quangoocracy. The grey suits and blue stockings are really bloody dangerous.

      • SidneyCordle

        Wow. What can I say other than Terry, yes. Bonkim has written utter crap from start to finish.

  • The Masked Marvel

    Rowling probably faces a hefty tax increase and a crimp in her enormous earnings after independence.

    • Kennybhoy

      Posted in error! 😉

  • john king

    “Is the promotion of British values the right solution”
    I can think of a solution that will save many British lives in the coming years but I’m sure the moderators would spring into action in seconds.

  • Kitty MLB

    Its not our duty to civilize, we are not the world police .
    The only duty we have is not to sacrifice our soldiers for someone else’s endless wars.

  • Colonel Mustard

    It is not for any greasy politician to promote ‘British values’. They are not theirs to own or bestow upon anyone, especially the wholly bogus and artificial kind they have steadily constructed for us without our consent.

  • Julieann Carter

    How do we promote British values over the obstacle of culture relativity that Matthew Parris champions? They cannot co-exist.
    We do not have a ‘bible-belt’ in Britain, why does Matthew Parris attempt to justify his argument, with irrelevance?
    Does he ‘really’ believe that all cultures are equal? Iraq has not settled down peacefully once the ‘tyrant of oppression’ was forcibly removed? Nor Egypt, Libya….

    Pakistan anyone? Boko Haram? France even? Sweden?

    Just to read the criteria for Muslims, on Bradford Teaching Hospitals web site, is a tragedy in our times.
    And to witness the multi layers of cover-all clothing endured by Muslim female staff, in the boiler houses of NHS surgical units, throughout all seasons. Pitiful suffering.

    • Terry Field

      So send them where? What would you prefer?

  • Graeme S

    We just don’t understand the mind set of this community , this community will set out its vision of the society it wants to be a part of. It will do this by dominating local councils, by controlling education authorities, members will run for elected office of police commissioners. Don’t underestimate these people, and do not be disillusion ourselves that there is not a concerted plan, it may not have a central coordinator but my god it is there

    • Shazza

      Totally agree. Their game plan has not changed in 1400 years and they are winning.

      We will be defeated by our own democratic processes.

      • Terry Field

        no- by our own over-fed, mentally lazy, slob-culture-led thoughtless hedonism.

    • Terry Field

      Of course there is. HOW can it have taken so long to wake up to this evil?????

  • Denis_Cooper

    What precisely do you mean by “the betrayal of British Muslims”?
    What about the betrayal of the non-Muslim population by politicians?

    • telemachus

      We are the British population comprising atheists, agnostics, C of E’s, Christians, Methodists, Catholics, Baptists, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, Sikhs, Budhists, Muslims, Hindu’s, confucionists, Shintoists, Rockers,Jews and do not cares
      We all have rights and responsibilities one of which is not to continue to vilify a single religion

      • Denis_Cooper

        So you’re OK with witchdoctors using the body parts of murdered children, muti, then. And you’d be OK with widows being put on
        their husbands’ funeral pyres, suttee, then. And so on.

        • telemachus

          Nor was I much in favour of the Christian trials of witches a few short centuries ago
          It is also our duty to civilise

          • Denis_Cooper

            I didn’t know that you were around “a few short centuries” ago to condemn Christian persecutions, but if so you will have observed that Islam has not progressed in the same way over the intervening centuries. In fact Islam has not progressed in the same way for many centuries, and it is your duty to recognise that and not try to pretend that it has become a benign religion when it clearly has not.

            • telemachus

              Witness Turkey

              • Kitty MLB

                Are we safe in the UK from those who hail
                from the middle east that Labour allowed to
                live amongst us?

                • telemachus

                  Our lives are immeasurably enriched
                  We were sinking into an unhealthy torpor
                  The influx of new blood this last 50 years is ushering in a new era of greatness

              • Edna

                Run by the new Sultan Erdogan who supports terrorism

          • girondas

            “It is also our duty to civilise”

            But you didn’t even try.

          • Terry Field

            Ah you are a cultural imperialist!!!

      • john king

        Go away you d$%K.

      • The Masked Marvel

        You’re doing it wrong, telemachus. You ought to be telling that to the imams and Islamo-nutters who vilify the rest of us. But you wouldn’t dare, would you?

        • telemachus

          And the Roman Catholic Priests have been good for our young boys?

          • The Masked Marvel

            Irrelevant. Stay on topic.

          • SidneyCordle

            I thought you said we should not vilify another religion? It seems what you meant is don’t tell the truth about Islam.

      • itbeso

        What not even if they have shown they deserve it?

    • Kitty MLB

      Indeed what about the betrayal of those who are not Muslims.
      We should not have got involved with Iraq, sacrificed lives for those who
      live by a creed of savagery and they feel betrayed.
      What about mothers of soldiers. Young lives snuffed out as they continue
      to murder each other.

    • The Masked Marvel

      Perhaps Sebastian meant that British Muslims were doing the betraying? If only.

  • Julieann Carter

    British Values: Adrian Hilton’s article in HuffPo describes beautifully.
    Now off to listen to more good sense from Douglas Murray. Sometimes, a strong dose of good sense from intelligent and insightful people, gives hope to the despair one feels at the relentless ranting of the hate mongers & dimwits who pervade our airwaves.

  • London Calling

    It would seem that schools in Birmingham became Islamic because the majority of pupils there were Muslim……….extremism is another issue, however a take over is not good and British values should be included in lessons throughout the UK, so yes…we do need to do more to tackle this issue………………:)

    Better together – weaker apart……..Scotland need to wake up and smell the coffee,tea, scotch, whatever it takes to make them come to their senses…….:)

    • Colonel Mustard

      Too late. When we have had at least two decades of an establishment regime buying into and in some cases peddling the nonsense that to assert our national identity and traditions is offensive to newly arrived minorities there is no way that the consequences can suddenly be reversed with words.

      • Kennybhoy

        “…there is no way that the consequences can suddenly be reversed with words.”

        Amen.

    • http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk IftikharA

      Those state and church schools where Muslim children are in majority, should be opted out as Muslim Academies. Muslim children need Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental period. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school.

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