Coffee House

David Cameron is doing what Eurosceptics want him to do

1 June 2014

2:25 PM

1 June 2014

2:25 PM

Tory Eurosceptics from the Cabinet down have long made clear that David Cameron will only be able to get a sufficiently different deal from the EU if he’s prepared to threaten that Britain will leave if it can’t get what it needs. Many have assumed that Cameron, who has been clear that he would prefer Britain to keep in the EU, would not be prepared to do this. But it seems that he is.

The German magazine Spiegel reports that Cameron told his fellow EU leaders that if Jean-Claude Juncker, the Luxembourg federalist, became president of the Euroopean Commission he could not guarantee that Britain would stay in the EU. The threat here is implicit not explicit but it appears to have got the message across. It is precisely the kind of hard ball negotiating that will be required if Cameron is to obtain substantially different terms of EU membership for Britain.

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Show comments
  • Jason Pullen

    David Cameron is guilty of causing the deaths of some people unable to cope with his immoral actions.
    The self defense law states that if all other means of defense fail – calls/letters/protests for example, killers can be killed, so any citizen aware of his killing is now legally obliged to defend..and the method of defense not yet used is to kill the killer…

  • Kitty MLB

    No leader promise we will stay in or leave the EU (although
    I would like us to leave) its upto the electorate in a referendum.
    Cameron does need to put his foot down with the EU who
    have far too much say. Yet fully aware he needs to be diplomatic.
    A pity Cameron cannot dump the lame duck Lib Dems, call
    for a general election and name a date for the referendum.

  • Bob339

    Cameron is a pathetic Elagabalus who will do as he is told by his Banker masters.

  • Denis_Cooper

    As far as treaty change is concerned it makes little difference who the President of the EU Commission may be, and likewise it makes little difference what the composition of the EU Parliament may be, because it is the governments of the member states who have the final word on treaty changes.

    Any worthwhile EU treaty changes would have to be made by the ordinary revision procedure laid down in Article 48 TEU here, and note:

    “4. A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be made to the Treaties.”

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.C_.2010.083.01.0001.01.ENG#C_2010083EN.01001301

    “Article 48

    (ex Article 48 TEU)

    1. The Treaties may be amended in accordance with an ordinary revision procedure. They may also be amended in accordance with simplified revision procedures.

    2. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the Council proposals for the amendment of the Treaties. These proposals may, inter alia, serve either to increase or to reduce the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties. These proposals shall be submitted to the European Council by the Council and the national Parliaments shall be notified.

    3. If the European Council, after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, adopts by a simple majority a decision in favour of examining the proposed amendments, the President of the European Council shall convene a Convention composed of representatives of the national Parliaments, of the Heads of State or Government of the Member States, of the European Parliament and of the Commission. The European Central Bank shall also be consulted in the case of institutional changes in the monetary area. The Convention shall examine the proposals for amendments and shall adopt by consensus a recommendation to a conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States as provided for in paragraph 4.

    The European Council may decide by a simple majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, not to convene a Convention should this not be justified by the extent of the proposed amendments. In the latter case, the European Council shall define the terms of reference for a conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States.

    4. A conference of representatives of the governments of the Member States shall be convened by the President of the Council for the purpose of determining by common accord the amendments to be made to the Treaties.

    The amendments shall enter into force after being ratified by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

    5. If, two years after the signature of a treaty amending the Treaties, four fifths of the Member States have ratified it and one or more Member States have encountered difficulties in proceeding with ratification, the matter shall be referred to the European Council.

    6. The Government of any Member State, the European Parliament or the Commission may submit to the European Council proposals for revising all or part of the provisions of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union relating to the internal policies and action of the Union.

    The European Council may adopt a decision amending all or part of the provisions of Part Three of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. The European Council shall act by unanimity after consulting the European Parliament and the Commission, and the European Central Bank in the case of institutional changes in the monetary area. That decision shall not enter into force until it is approved by the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements.

    The decision referred to in the second subparagraph shall not increase the competences conferred on the Union in the Treaties.

    7. Where the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union or Title V of this Treaty provides for the Council to act by unanimity in a given area or case, the European Council may adopt a decision authorising the Council to act by a qualified majority in that area or in that case. This subparagraph shall not apply to decisions with military implications or those in the area of defence.”

    Where the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union provides for legislative acts to be adopted by the Council in accordance with a special legislative procedure, the European Council may adopt a decision allowing for the adoption of such acts in accordance with the ordinary legislative procedure.

    Any initiative taken by the European Council on the basis of the first or the second subparagraph shall be notified to the national Parliaments. If a national Parliament makes known its opposition within six months of the date of such notification, the decision referred to in the first or the second subparagraph shall not be adopted. In the absence of opposition, the European Council may adopt the decision.

    For the adoption of the decisions referred to in the first and second subparagraphs, the European Council shall act by unanimity after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament, which shall be given by a majority of its component members.

    • you_kid

      No treaty change will be ever be required for a long long time – all the rest is covered by article 352 of Lisbon. Sorry … next.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …your next sockpuppet?

        • you_kid

          Why not decant yet another whinge, you fermented sock.
          Wine it will be not, whining more like.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …you mean, like all your sockpuppets?

            • you_kid

              As of the 1st of November we will be in the majority. Count your days … my hunch is September 18 will shut you up in any case.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …can any other of you socialist nutters translate this nutter’s gibberish?

      • Denis_Cooper

        Nope, not the case.

        • you_kid

          Correct, actionism is demanded by no one of relevance.
          What we want and need to see however are the objectives listed in Article 352 which I referred to and you quoted in parts. That is why it is worded how it is worded, and Britain signed up to that in full.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …do you really want to continue trolling this site with this impenetrable gibberish, lad? Really, isn’t it time for you and all your sockpuppets to go?

  • Grey Wolf

    This is a stupid, pointless article – almost akin to a gossip column about Kerry Katona.

    • Chingford Man

      Don’t be ridiculous, Forsyth’s columns are far worse.

  • BarkingAtTreehuggers

    I don’t understand why you’re bothering, James – the Newark by-election is in the bag.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      …you mean, you’ve got all your sockpuppets voting then?

  • Lady Magdalene

    The only way Cameron can guarantee we WILL stay in the EU is if the British people are denied the right of self-determination which they preach at middle eastern dictatorships.
    He may think it is highly likely that he can get a mandate for our membership if he can persuade a gullible electorate that the piddling changes the EU will permit constitute a significant redrawing of the relationship, but he can’t guarantee it.
    Whatever he says to the Germans and the British people, we KNOW that he will never take the UK out ….. he’s told us so on many occasions and funnily enough that’s the one thing he’s said that I believe.

    • Alexsandr

      we know the Wilson tacticon EU refereda -and the Internet will see such a charade is exposed as such

      • Denis_Cooper

        I fear not, the mass media still have too much influence on those who take a less active interest in politics.

  • colliemum

    Sadly, the general attitude in Germany is – if Cameron and the UK want to leave, let them go, we don’t need them.
    Madame Merkel will be well aware of that attitude of her citizens, unlike Cameron and Hague and obviously James Forsyth.
    It is clear that this does not strengthen but weakens his negotiation position, both in Brussels and here.
    Merkel and the rest can tell him to make good on his threat in the negotiations or else, knowing full well he cannot, unless he makes the GE next year also into an IN/OUT referendum.
    Stomping his feet until 2017 is not going to work in Brussels any longer.

    Here in the UK, we can ask Cameron why he isn’t giving us that referendum now, if he can obviously threaten Madame Merkel with it. He either gives in, or is exposed as weak liar.

    A more serious blunder by Cameron on both the international and national stage I have yet to see.

    • HookesLaw

      Like you have your finger on the pulse of the world of international diplomacy.
      Under the Tories there will be a referendum in 2017, this inevitably brings the possibility of an out vote. So Can eron is only telling it like it is.
      Meantime yet again we only see the nutjobs lathering themselves into a hysteria.

      • colliemum

        “International diplomacy” – blimey.
        A glance at German papers is all that’s needed – funnily enough, they are available online.

        As for ‘nutjobs lathering themselves etc …’ – LOL!
        I suggest you read some of the German comments on said websites, then you’d know what such ‘lathering’ really looks like.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …right, like that Camerluvvie troll would ever be interested in anything other than confirmation bias.

          • colliemum

            Heh – you’re right!

            Isn’t it astonishing that those who praise the EU to the rafters and simply lurrve immigrants haven’t got a clue, nor show the slightest interest in what the ordinary people of the EU’s biggest country have to say.

    • Lady Magdalene

      I suspect the Germans know that Cameron will NEVER advocate leaving the EU and will never take us out. He’s said so many times.

  • Smithersjones2013

    It doesn’t matter anymore. No self respecting Eurosceptic will take any notice of Cameron’s machinations. If the proverbial miracle happens and Cameron actually does deliver something worth considering all well and good but nobody is holding their breath and his contortions on Europe are highly unlikely to win any votes in the interim as a result of people’s distrust of his prior posturing.

    Cameron will need Farage’s seal of approval before Kippers will rally round and Nigel’s view is that it is business as usual in Brussels. By inference Dave’s gyrations have had absolutely no impact over there at all….

  • LB

    Just talk.

    No change has happened to the EU.

    Even under Cameron more and more powers have been transferred.

  • you_kid

    Opposing Juncker is pivotal to engaging in unilateral renegotiations thereafter.
    In that context Cameron’s line is entirely consistent.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      …you mean, like you and all your sockpuppets are consistent?

      • HookesLaw

        Get back to bigotsville arizona

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …get back to your humiliating 3rd place, laddie.

          • Alexsandr

            even the europhile theif, nadhin zahawi, now sees that EU immigration is a threat to the tories. Maybe he got a nasty wake up call with the locals and the euros. He has a strong Limp dem tradition in Warwickshire to counter and heamorrhaging votes to UKIP could make him vulnerable.
            Not being able to calculate his expenses accurately (For the electricity for his £1 mansion in Tysoe) wont help either.

    • Adro

      You’re right, but I wouldn’t bother. As far as some of the posters on here are concerned, nothing that the Government/Cameron does is ever going to be good enough. Likewise it seems that nothing the sainted Nigel does can ever be wrong. Trying to use a logical argument with such people is difficult at best. You might get someone who’ll engage, but mostly it’ll be the sneering idiots who’ll respond, with naught but nonsense.

      It’s a shame that blogs like this all too often become an echo chamber for rubbish.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …sounds you 3 socialist nutters here have formed your own echo chamber, lad.

        • Adro

          Again Viceroy, calling anyone who disagrees with you a Socialist? Are you the reincarnation of McCarthy? Scared of reds under the bed?

          But seriously, this is ridiculous. Telemachus probably is a socialist (and an idiot), that I’ll grant you. But just because I think that your often simplistic solutions to problems are lacking in substance, and your blanket dismissals of anything the Government does, rather than engaging in cogent arguments, are stupid does not make me ‘socialist’.

          Calling anyone who disagrees with you a socialist seemingly indicates a lack of understanding of what a socialist actually is, and by implication you also seem to have an extremely narrow view of what constitutes conservatism.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …it’s amusing that you, a socialist nutter caught here whining and commiserating with your fellow socialist nutters, and shrieking and sneering at the conservatives here, are also lecturing conservatives as to what constitutes conservatism.

            Go over with your fellow socialist nutters, lad.

            • you_kid

              it’s NOT AMUSING lad – you are a troll. Now whine and dine and decant yet another one of your pathetic whinges.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …and it’s also amusing that this socialist nutter trolls this site with an army of sockpuppets, spewing socialist gibberish.

                • you_kid

                  The puppet jury of fine whining are proud to hereby grant you the status of official Appellation d’Origine Contrôlée Certified Whinger. Santé, troll lad!

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …I doubt even the most nutty of socialist nutters can translate that socialist gibberish, lad.

  • Hello

    “The threat here is implicit not explicit but it appears to have got the message across”

    Is it though? I get the impression from what’s coming out of Germany and Brussels that there’s going to be a political miscalculation.

    • LB

      Germany says they wont’ allow the UK to leave the EU and gain a competitive advantage.

      Perhaps they can explain what the EU is doing to damage the UK’s competitive position.

      • HookesLaw

        Where do they say that?
        Why should anyone in the EU grant the UK a better trade deal with the EU than any of the other members, ie themselves, within it?

        • LB

          http://www.channel4.com/news/could-britain-end-up-leaving-the-eu

          Charles Grant, director of the pro-European Centre for European Reform, argues that EU governments will not grant treaty opt-outs to Britain because of fears that it could gain “an unfair competitive advantage” within the single market and encourage other countries to follow Britain’s pick-and-mix example.

          Amongst others.

          • Alexsandr

            if the UK gets ‘EU lite’ it will wreck EU cohesion and may well make it rent asunder.

            • LB

              No. It will the arrogant politicians dictating to the public that will break up the EU.

              Getting off the sinking ship is the way to go.

              We can always cooperate, as can they. However, you’re not chained to it.

              Historically that model is the one that works. Look at Renaissance Italy and city states, to the break up of empires. It works.

              • Alexsandr

                I was not saying that we should not do stuff that would put the EU at risk. we should do stuff that is in the interests of the UK.

      • Tony_E

        Surely that’s an implicit recognition that it’s no longer advantageous to be in the EU at all?

  • DaveTheRave

    Don’t believe a word of it.
    Ukip should push and push the message that getting out of the EU is not about ‘little Englanders’ retiring behind the white cliffs of Dover – it’s about opening out our trade to the world once again, to be a beacon of enterprise – and justice, with a strong sense of our identity restored.

    • sarah_13

      Ukip should not overplay their hand either. The outcome is what’s important surely.

    • Alexsandr

      I think UKIP need to shout from the rooftops that they love Europe and Europeans. Its the EU and its institutions that dislike.
      Well that’s my view, anyroad.

      • DaveTheRave

        Exactly right. We need to celebrate the innate ‘diversity’ of Europe, not try to make it one country. Vive la difference, as they say.

  • global city

    The one constant mantra being repeated by europhiles (other than the racehommysophobe slur) is the inward looking and isolated meme.

    UKIP should really drill down and get the global nature of their post EU vision out, as the isolationist angle seems to be sticking.

    • DaveTheRave

      Exactly.

  • itdoesntaddup

    Objecting to Juncker is a sham just so that Cameron can claim he’s threatened withdrawal, and either a) it failed as a negotiating tactic, so it shouldn’t be used elsewhere, or b) it succeeded as a negotiating tactic, and needn’t be used elsewhere because he’s achieved the most important part of the renegotiation.

  • @PhilKean1

    .

    Baffled at Cameron’s priorities.

    Which poses the greatest immediate threat to the British national interest?

    (1) – The election of an EU Commission President who’ll make no material difference to what Britain is allowed to achieve at the supposed “negotiations” – or to the rate at which the EU speeds towards economic and political union?

    (2) – The EU imposing THEIR financial transaction tax on a British economy that was NOT supposed to be part of economic union ; a tax that will affect London FAR more than any other EU financial centre, and that will persuade people to move their business away from London and to places like Singapore and New York?

    And yet Cameron decides to make the election of Mr Juncker his red line?

    .

    • telemachus

      Careful
      Cameron is credible on Europe
      Leave him to Play Merkel who has common cause and empathy
      He will deliver change acceptable to the vast majority of UK citizens
      UKIP will die

      • @PhilKean1

        “Credible” with politically-ignorant voters and those who want to stay the EU under all conditions.

        I suppose you fit the bill on both counts.
        .

        • telemachus

          So you are not interested at all in renegotiating even if this got all the demands of the Eurosceptic Tory Right

          • @PhilKean1

            What demands?

            Cameron won’t set out his list of demands because he doesn’t want to be bound by them or set a bench-mark for leaving the EU.
            .

            • telemachus

              Tactics
              You must not show your hand
              The May 22 events have given him the gun

              • @PhilKean1

                What hand?

                He has already let his fellow EU leaders know he’d never take Britain out of the EU.

                BTW – The “gun” you say has empowered Cameron was provided by people like me – NOT you !
                .

                • telemachus

                  Now he is actually threatening to do so

                • @PhilKean1

                  And if they told you that ashtrays work well on speeding motorbikes – would you believe them?
                  .

                • telemachus

                  It depends on the source and the statement
                  Cameron is credible on this

      • Grey Wolf

        Limitless idiocy from you can always be expected. Why don’t you take your commentary to Guardian or something.

        • telemachus

          I guess it is probably legitimate for you to seek only views which accord with yours

          • Alexsandr

            no. we seek views that have been thought through. Not cut and pasted from a manual.

            • telemachus

              No need for thought
              Use guile to outfox Hollande and Merkel
              Then force through the negotiated deal and the UK electorate will lie down

          • Adam Carter

            But you hardly ever put forward any reasoned views, do you?
            You just tag others’ comments with silly short comments.
            Why don’t you offer a reasoned position?
            It’s too late for this thread but on a thread soon why don’t you oppose the view of other commenters and put out an explanation of your party’s policies and why they would be better for the UK?
            Avoid silly statements about ‘the charismatic one’, avoid attempting to slur people as racist.
            Tell us why Labour policies are better..

      • Bob339

        My advice? Do not hold your breath waiting for this to happen!

    • the viceroy’s gin

      This is just the Speccie kid making up nonsense, and passing on gossip. It was similar with the “green crap”, as you will recall. Just idle gossip, passed off as “policy”. It’s disgraceful, but that’s nothing new.

      Ignore it completely. The Camerloons are transparent, and you don’t need to be bothered by these distractions.

      • Grey Wolf

        Good one.

      • telemachus

        Not sure what you are after
        If it is out all together you will not get it
        The polls tell us a majority want to stay in

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …I think we are all sure what you are after, lad.

          • telemachus

            I am after robust negotiation and then a vote to stay in
            *
            Like all reasonable folk

            • Alexsandr

              dream on. You cant negotiate with a brick wall
              the EE states will not allow any change to free movement.

              • telemachus

                I perceive things are shifting
                The complacent Brussels elite have been shaken
                If they do not listen we might for example see Le Pen taking over from Hollande
                Further Merkel still needs the means to impose fiscal discipline on the Southern Europeans and needs treaty change for that
                And hence needs the UK
                I would not look at this negatively

            • Darnell Jackson

              Why would you prefer to stay in?

              What are you afraid of?

              • telemachus

                Economic collapse

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …no, that’s a lie, as is typical with you socialist nutters.

    • Adro

      You seem to be jumping the gun a bit here Phil, and misleading readers while doing so. The Government put in a legal challenge to the FTT as soon as it was even mooted. They lost the case largely because the ECJ held that they could not rule on the legality of something that had not actually been drafted into a firm proposal, and instead suggested that the UK challenge it as soon as a final proposal is put forward. I’d hardly call that not fighting the FTT. Your statement implies pretty heavily that the government are either a) not doing anything, or b) actively support the idea of an FTT. Neither of which are materially true.

      I would imagine the reason that Cameron is therefore fighting the appointment of Juncker as President of the Commission is because he will play a large part in setting the direction for the EU over the next few years, and thus his decisions will ultimately make a material difference to Britain. Whats more, being that he is an avowed federalist, do you think he is going to want to be even open minded about the notion of fundamental reform, which is what the UK will be pushing for? Having a President who is at least willing to accept the notion of change will make life much easier for the UK and make changes to the EU more likely.

      • @PhilKean1

        Not jumping the gun at all.

        What Osborne did by challenging this diktat in the EU’s OWN Courts – instead of immediately calling it a red-line that has been crossed – is to legitimise and give credibility to the the EU’s processes and the assumption that it is acceptable to impose economic union rules on the UK using back-door methods.

        • Adro

          Do you actually understand how the law works? Your solution would be categorically worse. Do you actually believe that by sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending that the FTT doesn’t exist, that it will somehow go away? Calling it a red-line does nothing. Challenging it in a court where it can be defeated does.

          • @PhilKean1

            No, I am very thick. Please bear with me.

            I am saying that the diktat was illegitimate and so they shouldn’t have “legitimised” the act by challenging it in the EU’s own Courts.

            We are not supposed to be part of economic union. Mind you, we were supposed to have had an opt-out from joining the Euro, but we have lived with the threat of it being imposed and will still be required to join it under the terms of the new Treaty.

            Anyway, if they can impose this FTT diktat, and UK Governments are so weak they’ll always eventually concede to such diktats, there is nothing stopping the EU forcing Britain into total economic and political union.

            I say that it should be a red-line that the PM says will result in Britain hitting the EU with Article 50.
            However, the difference between me and you seems very clear.
            I don’t recognise the EU due it to not having a legal mandate over the British people.
            You, I am guessing – by your acceptance of the EU’s legal processes and your insistence that we allow the EU to write the rules of the game – very much do recognise the EU and want Britain to play her full part in it.
            .

            • Adro

              Where to begin?

              Firstly, in what way are we under threat of the Euro being ‘imposed’? The UK has an opt-out from the Euro, and it cannot be imposed on us. So that is patently nonsense.

              The FTT is not a ‘diktat’. It would have to be passed into law by the European Parliament, and even then it can be challenged in the ECJ.

              You can not recognise the EU all you want but it is there, and engaging with it to attempt to change it for the better (and if we can’t, putting it to a vote and if necessary leaving) is a better approach than yours, which seems to largely involve living in a fantasy world. I want Britain to have the advantages of being in a single market free trade bloc (which will involve some regulations and harmonisation, no matter how much you might not like it), without much of the overbearing nonsense that comes with the EU in its current form, and would be much better done at the national level.

              • @PhilKean1

                Where do I start.

                (1) – UK Governments told us we wouldn’t have to join the Euro. But then we had to fight tooth and nail and rely on Brown’s considerable political skills to prevent Blair bouncing us into it
                (2) – Only a law if you recognise the EU. I don’t, and neither do many others. We are not supposed to be part of economic union. Yet the EU are using back-door means provided by previous Treaties, especially Lisbon, to impose their will.
                (3) – The EU is there, and we are fighting to make it disappear. This means the Liberal-left’s total domination of British politics needs to be broken at the 2015 election.
                (4) – We don’t need to vote in a referendum to leave the EU because we were never asked our permission to join it. The criminal deceit that was the 1975 vote was about remaining in a “Common Market”.
                (5) – The so-called “Single Market” is the Federal EU. It is the Federal enabler that Cameron and his like use to trick us into believing we can stay in the EU on a trade and cooperation basis.

                And, hey, I couldn’t have been more right about your EU sympathies.
                .

                • Adro

                  Ok, we’re never going to see eye to eye, but I’ll respond as you’ve taken the time to.

                  1) You’ve entirely misrepresented what happened. Blair (and a minority of those around him) was notionally pro-Euro, Brown wasn’t. Blair suggested that one day the UK could join. Brown ruled it out with his conditions. Brown won, and rightly so. No-one since then has promised, or realistically believed that Britain is ever going to join the Euro. It certainly won’t happen under the Tories, and even Labour regard the matter as settled.

                  2) You can pretend you live in a bunker where laws don’t apply to you all you want, but the you should realise that the law applies to you as much as anyone. Not even Phil Kean is above the law. Whether you recognise it or not is immaterial. I’ve seen people try that with various laws in front of judges. It doesn’t work.

                  3) Well fine, that’s your belief, and you’re perfectly entitled to it. But most of the solutions you’re arguing for won’t achieve anything like what you’re looking for. Even if the UK leaves, it won’t ‘destroy the EU’. It’ll still carry on and the country will have some form of relationship with it. To believe otherwise is either naive or deluded.

                  4) Well you’re technically right, Parliament could pass a law ending our membership tomorrow. But that won’t happen, and such a big step rightly should be put to the people to decide.

                  5) The single market is not the federal EU. You’re conflating two different things whilst at the same time bringing in an argument about acquis clauses in the Lisbon treaty. A trading relationship is a good thing, and that will require a degree of cross-border cooperation in order to make it work. I think the level of European oversight has gone too far, but that does not mean that the single market is a fundamentally wrong idea.

                  Well, you weren’t right, but I guess you regard anyone who has different ideas to you as being wrong, and anyone who doesn’t want to ‘destroy’ the EU as you do is (to use words that you admittedly haven’t, but some of your sympathisers on here do) a slave to the EUSSR (or some other non-sensical and meaningless phrase).

                  Thank you for actually bothering to engage, but you really should be a bit more realistic about the European situation, rather than carrying on your present bunker mentality.

                • Alexsandr

                  the single market is run by the EU. so if we leave the EU and remain in the single market we will have no say on how it is run. I therefore think leaving the single market is best option. Besides, then EU regs would only apply to transactions with the smaller EU. not to domestic ones or ones with non EU countries.

                  and i do think the UK leaving the EU will be very disruptive. It may give impetus to EUsceptic parties And may start disputes as other members try and get a better deal.

    • Secular_Investor

      You are right, these are vitally important issues, but it is a totally false choice of one or the other. We should get BOTH.

      Personally, I have long since stopped believing anything Cameron says. He is the arch spin doctor (after all that was his profession) and everything he says, or which he is reported to have said, is wrapped up acres of small print get out clauses.

      He gave cast iron guarantees to give us an EU referendum then found weasel ways to go back on the promise. Now he asks us to believe him again.

      He keeps going to Europe summits mouthing Euro-sceptic words,. Only later do we find that he has given away more and more UK interest. He claims to have got a UK rebate but later we find he has agreed to a large increase in the EU budget without the UK getting anything in return. This time he talked of a smaller Europe, only we then find he has agreed to a further £500 million increase of UK contribution to support the Eurocrats…..URGH!!!

    • Luca

      I’m Italian, I can tell you that the Italian media only described this move like a poor stupid guy’s one. Cameron appear very very week and alone

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