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Britain needs ‘Church schools’ and ‘faith schools’

10 June 2014

10 June 2014

Following Freddy Gray’s piece yesterday about the pundits’ efforts to exploit the ‘Trojan Horse’ affair in order discredit ‘faith’ schools, I thought you might be interested in the statement below, from the Catholic Education Service, which pretty well sums up the argument.

One person the CES may have in its sights when it talks about the charge of indoctrination is the former Education Secretary, David Blunkett, who observed yesterday that: there was a ‘muddle’ in the heart of government when it comes to religious schooling. ‘Our society does need an open, liberal — small ‘l’ — curriculum that embraces all faiths and no faiths, and teaches children to think for themselves … rather than have any ideological, any politics, any faith, pushed down their throat.’ Loaded, or what?

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Actually, I think to avoid confusion, Christian schools should revert to being ‘church’ schools rather than ‘faith’ ones. It’s interesting that when people are asked in polls whether they support faith schools they tend to give a dusty response; when they’re asked about church schools, it’s another story; and as we all know, the best ones are beating applicants off with sticks. Though as the statement below makes clear, the ones affected by the ‘Trojan Horse’ affair aren’t faith schools at all. ‘Church schools’ plus ‘faith schools’ for non-Christian institutions is a clumsy formula, but it might actually be a helpful distinction.

Here’s the statement:

‘In light of the alleged “Trojan Horse” plot in Birmingham the Catholic Education Service has produced the following statement:

“Many people are confusing extremism with religion. It should be clarified that the alleged problems in Birmingham concern a number of community schools not faith schools. Catholic schools and other faith schools should not be penalised in response to these allegations.

“The Catholic Church welcomes the role of Ofsted in ensuring accountability and inclusive education for all, regardless of belief. Catholic schools are a place where pupils come together to lean about faith in an open and informative way to question and form their own understandings of their faith. Catholic schools exist to provide high academic standards and the formation of the whole person. They are not places of indoctrination or proselytisation.

“Catholic schools are an integrated part of local communities with more pupils from ethnic minority backgrounds and deprived areas than national averages.”’


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Show comments
  • shiva

    I seem to recall, shipbuilders, printers, car workers, coal miners etc etc believing the Same and where are they now?
    کارشناسی ارشد بدون کنکوردرب اتوماتیک

  • shiva

    sounds like it all all about you then!
    köpek mamasıköpek cinsleriنمای سرامیک

  • mina
  • Fergus Pickering

    True, nonetheless. And a grammar school too!

  • Lagos1

    The real trojan horse is the introduction of Islam into the UK in order to weaken Christianity and traditional values and culture in general. It comes as no surprise that the secularists use the goings on in Birmingham to attack Christian schools. Its part of their strategy. The hypocrites.

    • telemachus

      We should study respect and then go out to convert

      • Lagos1

        respect what?

      • rtj1211

        We should develop inner peace and then encourage others to seek likewise. Converting usually involves manipulation, whilst holding no brief other than wishing others to explore for themselves is a far higher purpose.

    • Bonkim

      Weakening Christianity in Britain – Which world are you living in? Christmas and Easter is not Christianity. Christianity has been dead for centuries – some point out to the age of enlightenment, and scientific advancement to have finally killed off established religion.

      Unless you wish to re-visit the Tennessee Monkey Trial,

      best to acknowledge that what passes for Christianity is man-made superstition. Cultural and political Christianity – if that is what you wish to preserve varies with location and time – very elusive.

      • Lagos1

        your knowledge of Christianity seems weak.

        • Bonkim

          We are discussing the state of so called Christianity in Britain not your or my individual belief system or lack of one. Knowledge is not faith and those that have faith don’t need knowledge.

          • Lagos1

            You’ve missed the point. Your post is simply factually incorrect.
            But anyway, the idea that faith doesn’t need knowledge is also simply wrong. How can you have faith in something without some knowledge of what it is you think you have faith in?

            • Bonkim

              You learn about faith from those around you believing and practising it. Social and tribal coercion is a powerful force.

              • Lagos1

                True, although not only this. But it goes to show that faith goes with knowledge.

                In fact, philosophical study identified the act of faith as consisting essentially in knowledge. You see the renaissance and enlightenment never killed religion.

                • Bonkim

                  The more you know the more you come to realise the limits of the human mind and its reasoning powers. Many scientists are dumbfounded by their discoveries and turn to God for explanation beyond their knowledge.

    • Fred Scuttle

      They had an easy way in, the legal requirement of a religious assembly in all schools, supposedly secular or not. It would not have happened if all religious indoctrination of children in schools was made illegal.

      • Lagos1

        But that would then be religious indoctrination. There is no neutral position Fred.

        • Fred Scuttle

          There is. You teach gods as general studies, but not as fact. Secular schools should not have religious assemblies. You neither teach theism or atheism as truth.

          • Lagos1

            Sorry Fred, as soon as you say that God has no role in a child’s school day except as one of a number of academic items, then you are taking an explicit religious position that is far from neutral.

            You are making my case for me, you are trying to shoehorn your own secular extremism into society by capitalising on the presence of Muslims in Britain. Your suggestion is the true trojan horse here.

  • Damaris Tighe

    The terms ‘faith’ this & ‘faith’ that are yet another pc obfuscation of the real differences between religions, especially (in this country) between Christianity & Islam. It’s a case of newspeak trying to censor thought & hence change policy. This was achieved successfully when the term ‘unmarried mother’ was changed to ‘single parent’, thus obliterating the difference between never-married mothers, widows & divorcees.

    • Bonkim

      You need to find neutral terminology so as not to cause offence to people of all lifestyles.

      • Damaris Tighe

        I’m offended by people who choose a welfare-dependent lifestyle on my taxes & I’m not neutral about it.

        • Bonkim

          So am I and hopefully that is being tightened up – you can hear the squeals.

          • Damaris Tighe

            Phew! I wondered whether you were being sarcastic or really believed that pc cr*p!

            • Bonkim

              PC has its advantages in negotiating an acceptable deal. The other alternative is to eliminate all that you don’t agree with and in the process get eliminated. Sarcasm comes from seeing both sides of the coin at one glance.

  • Fergus Pickering

    We ordinary people are not as thick as you special people think e are. We know faith schools means muslims which we detest. Christian schools we don’t mind at all. French schooling does not impress us. Their pupils are ill-behaved brats. It’s a pity they didn’t go to church schools to instil some manners and consideration.

    • rtj1211

      I had manners and consideration installed in the 1970s/early 1980s and found in your darling Mrs Thatcher’s Britain that my lack of loud-mouthed aggression, self-aggrandising bullshit and ‘them n us’ tribal political extremism left me singularly unsuited for the challenges ahead.

      No good installing manners if it doesn’t work in real life, mate.

      • Bonkim

        They do if you keep your cool and be polite to everyone. Manners are for oneself – not for others.

      • Fergus Pickering

        Good manners always work. Try ’em.

  • Lucy Sky Diamonds

    Britain needs grammar schools!

  • chudsmania

    No it doesnt. Period. Schools are for learning. Religion might be part of the curriculum , but thats all , and even that is debatable. Let kids believe about tooth fairies and father xmas when they are young , thats fine , but anything else they’ll work out when they are older.

  • Liberty

    You have missed the point. It is that too many Muslim faith schools teach closedness and intolerance. When they do mention non-Muslim faiths it is in a derogatory way. Also, that women should be subordinate to men, women who disobey can be physically punished, gays and those who leave Islam should be killed, You cannot compare Christianity and Judaism in this as both long ago gave up evil practices but even then, they were never as brutal to women as Islam is now. If the beliefs, values and content of of Muslim education you describe you can just about manage, you must understand that it is they, taught in closed of worlds of vast Muslim communities meeting few if any of other faiths that creates the swamp from which child marriage, FGM, stoning, bloody murder on the streets of percieved enemies, etc emerges.

    • rtj1211

      You think America is not a ‘closed community of Christians’?

      You think Israel is not a ‘closed community of Jews’?

      I would venture to suggest that many people on this earth feel greatly at risk from the actions of those two nations…….

      • Liberty

        Of course I do. The US and Israel are among the most multi-cultural societies on earth. The US has 12% Black, 17% Hispanic and Jews just 2.5%. Israel is 75% Jewish, 16% Muslim and others. There is no prohibition – except informally and certainly no violence against – those who leave Judaism, Islam or Christianity. Sure, the families and communities may not like it but it happens and the leavers have a good life. Muslims cannot immigrate to Israel without extensive vetting because Israel is a very small and crowded country, far too many want to enter and kill people. You may think that we could do with a bit of that. They let Jews in because so many suffer discrimination as you may have heard re. France lately and they certainly don’t go around blowing people up.

  • swatnan

    …. like it needs a hole in the head! The French have a secular Education System and have banned scarves and veils, and the world has not collapsed.

  • Alistair Moulden

    But the purge on faith schools has been going on here in the forgotten backwaters of North Wales for a while now mainly due to unaccountable local Government intent on destroying the needs of the society they are paid to support:- http://betweendenbighandkeele.blogspot.com/2013/10/st-brigids-people-power.html

    • Fred Scuttle

      I expect you yearn for a real, effective deity.

      • Alistair Moulden

        On the contrary, I yearn for freedom.

        • Fred Scuttle

          Freedom from the compulsory religious indoctrination of children?

          • Alistair Moulden

            No, just the freedom to choose.

            • Fred Scuttle

              You can choose to go to church on Sunday, if indoctrination is the requirement. As things stand, the only school in a village might be a religious one when most people don’t believe in any god. This clearly can’t continue.

              • Kitty MLB

                If this only school in the villiage was of another
                Faith, one that is medieval and barbaric then
                that would be a problem. But fortunately
                that is not an issue with our church schools
                and it will do the little darlings some good.

                • Fred Scuttle

                  Lying to trusting children is never acceptable.

            • rtj1211

              The freedom to impose on your children what you wish them to be exposed to??

    • la catholic state

      Bring in UKIP and sort them out.

  • Daedalus

    Our kids went to a CofE infants school, we did not know when we moved to the area, 100 miles from where we used to live, that by accident (and I do mean by accident) we had moved into an area with such sought after schools.
    Our kids have done really well from going there and I would have fought tooth and nail to keep it as it is. But 18 years on the times have changed, I now believe that all schools should be secular, no religion at all, nothing, nada. Not because I don’t want other kids to go to schools mine have benefited from but because it is the only way to prevent what has happened in Birmingham and now just up the road from us in Bradford. Schools should have a simple neat school uniform that has nil significance religiously and no one should be allowed to wear any religious tokens at all. Head scarves should be banned along with all the other paraphernalia that goes with “our culture init.”
    Its a poor do when it comes to this, but around West Yorkshire the whole culture is changing such that whole areas now resemble Karachi without the sun. There are no go zones for the people who used to live there and we now have families with the 3rd generations speaking English as a second language. Please FIFO, “fit in or f*** off” you originally came here for a better way of life and all you seem to be doing is bringing ours down to yours. Voting in many areas around here is seen as being very suspect.

    Daedalus.

    • Fergus Pickering

      Why not allow Christian schools and ban all schools of heathen faiths. It works for me.

      • rtj1211

        What works for you is not sufficient justification for anything.

        Homosexuality works for plenty of people and you would be in spiritual agony if you were ever subjected to it.

        • Fergus Pickering

          Subjected to it? What are you talking about? Do you mean have I been raped by a dirty old man? If you don’t, what do you mean?

  • JoeDM

    Education should be based on reason not any particular brand of ritual superstition.

    • la catholic state

      You won’t find much reason in state secular schools. You are told what to think there….and God help you if you don’t.

      • Dave Hogarth

        What do you mean? Children are taught subjects with factual content.

        • Bonkim

          who determines what are facts and what social brainwashing?

          • Dave Hogarth

            Nobody ‘determines’ facts. You seem to missing the point.

            • Bonkim

              Lot of information touted as facts turn out to be misleading, inaccurate. Facts have to be substantiated. We are brainwashed from the day we are born by the environment surrounding us and by those we come into contact with. Society, any society exerts a powerful force to conform, that distorts reality, breeds prejudice, and distorts reason.

              • Dave Hogarth

                I agree :)

            • Fergus Pickering

              No. You do not understand. Give us some examples of your facts. 2=2=4 won’t do. It is not a fact it is a given.

              • Dave Hogarth

                You want a fact, fair enough… lets start with 2!=4.

                • Bonkim

                  2!=2 Dave not 4

                • Dave Hogarth

                  Not when youre referring to logic is doesnt. You have interpreted the syntax as factorial.

                • Bonkim

                  I am at a loss – you got me there.

      • Bonkim

        I suppose the Holy Father gives you reason you cannot refuse.

        • la catholic state

          There is nobody to match the reasoning of the Holy Father.

          • Bonkim

            Have to agree given the hold they have on so many – a deal you cannot refuse.

    • Fergus Pickering

      A lot of ‘reason’ is ritual superstition. Stands to reason, fruitcake..

      • rtj1211

        Indeed, and much of it is to be found in Judaism, Christianity and Islam!!

        • Fergus Pickering

          You have no idea how argument works, do you?

  • http://www.readmypoems.co.uk Alison

    Leaning about faith is like dancing about architecture.

    • Baron

      How does one lean about faith, Alison?

      • http://www.readmypoems.co.uk Alison

        Ask the person who wrote the statement, or Melanie McDonagh who typed it up. It clearly says “Catholic schools are a place where children come together to lean about faith…” Presumably it is a bit like reeling and writhing.

        • Baron

          Alison, shame on Baron, you’re right. And thanks for bothering to tell the poorly educated Slav, who should read stuff more carefully (but most likely won’t).

          • http://www.readmypoems.co.uk Alison

            I just found it amusing, which shows how bored I was.

  • Bonkim

    No harm in Church or other religion-affiliated schools as long as they provide a state-curriculum and teach tolerance and equality to pupils and bear their costs. State funded schools should not be associated with any religion.

    • you_kid

      what a radical thought

    • JoeDM

      And all schools should have a secular core curriculum. They can then add the mumbo-jumbo as an extra.

      • Alexsandr

        the current national curriculum is far too prescriptive. but the lack of direction in free schools isnt enough. we need a middle way for all schools
        but there must also be direction on stuff like segregation of sexes etc.

        • Bonkim

          Just throw the equality act at the governors/Head teacher and take them to the courts.

        • telemachus

          Or stop all Free Schools and Acadamies and just have Schools

          • chudsmania

            Free schools are schools you berk.

            • telemachus

              As you well know schools are code for equal regulation and governance and management and resources of all educational establishments

          • Alexsandr

            Or stop all Free Schools and Acadamies and just have cr@pSchools

            • telemachus

              No
              Put resources into dragging up poorly performing schools
              *
              Beats putting resources into schools that can decide to fund school trips to Saudi Arabia

              • Colonel Mustard

                Your party never managed that in 13 years of hosing money at schools.

              • Inverted Meniscus

                You apply pressure by having competition. That way free schools drive poor comprehensives to closure and deliver their useless teachers to the dole queue.

                • rtj1211

                  Actually you apply pressure by imposing impossible financial conditions. Very good teachers with 30 years experience are forced out by Heads who want to cut costs by employing 25 year olds.

                  No evidence that good quality teachers wishing to complete 40 years of service are useless. Just more expensive than inexperienced ones. Quite possibly better too……

      • Fergus Pickering

        Plenty of mumbo-jumbo in the secular curriculum. I remember my daughter being in a minority of one when she argued that respecting foreign beliefs and customs did not override human decency. In other words she condemned many African and muslim practices upheld by the secular mind-set in the name of tolerance.

        • Kitty MLB

          Its a sad reflection on our education system,
          that being honest and stating a fact put
          your daughter in the minority.
          Its a pity others don’t have such gumption
          when up against those who put so little
          value on human decency.

        • rtj1211

          I was from the era of grammar schools and, when at University, I mildly suggested that the lives of mountaineering club members just might be more important than the ego of a dangerous young male driver, who had overturned a full minibus at 40mph on a sharp bend, mercifully with no serious injury to anyone.

          95% of the room were British and the rest were Western European.

          I was in a fairly small minority in thinking that this value was worth enunciating at an AGM, given the continuing dodgy standards of driving by young men.

          No evidence that the British uphold the values your daughter upholds (and I do too).

    • la catholic state

      We do not send our kids to school to learn state ‘morality’ ie social engineering and secularism. And neither do we want our taxes funding secular state schools. All Christian children deserve a Christian education.

      • Bonkim

        I don’t want my taxes spent on religious education in state or faith schools.

        • Fergus Pickering

          I don’t care what you want. I want was is right.

          • Bonkim

            You have your rights I suppose as I have mine.

          • rtj1211

            Spoken like a true pre-adolescent incapable of understanding the need to balance wants across a society……….

            • Fergus Pickering

              I cdon’t know what you are talking about. Sounds like bollocks to me.

        • la catholic state

          I don’t want to spend my taxes on sub standard secular state education. Bottom of the class in every way,

          • Bonkim

            You should emigrate to the Philippines or some other country where the Inquisition still holds sway.

      • Fred Scuttle

        Secularism allows religious nuts and normal sensible folk to rub along together. Once your favoured holy spook has been satisfactorily demonstrated to exist (shouldn’t be difficult for an omnipotent being) it is OK to teach it as fact to trusting children. Till then it has no place in any school except as an example of nonsense that some deluded people believe in.

        • Kitty MLB

          Ah, you have returned Freddie.Have you been
          away on some kind of religious retreat,
          I suppose not.

          • Fergus Pickering

            He might have been to an atheists church singing hymns to Richard Dawkins.There are such places I assure you, Kitty.Ther is no end to their deluded nuttiness.

            • Kitty MLB

              I hadn’t thought of that Fergus. He has been praying to the
              God of nothing, and now he has returned to spread joy and hope as he always does.

              • Fred Scuttle

                Here we have two examples above of how religion can adversely affect the ability to think coherently. It’s a tragedy for them and they don’t even realise it.

            • rtj1211

              And there is no end to the denial of the fact that the Catholic Church ostracised Galileo Galilei for using science to eliminate the mumbo jumbo of an earth-centred solar system, that the book of Genesis was superseded by the scientific observations of Charles Darwin, subsequently confirmed by thousands of observations over 2 centuries etc etc.

              The Christian Religion has pickled itself in a book written nearly 2000 years ago.

              The world moves on and the christian church is dragged kicking and screaming into modernity, just as most of humanity has exited that part of modernity for the next one.

              I’ll always uphold your right to your beliefs, but until you see Christianity outside the light of the unquestioning believer, you won’t understand how absurd your statements are about those who disagree with your arbitrary views.

              • Fergus Pickering

                The earth-centred system is not mumbo-jumbo. It is simply wrong. You seem to have trouble with the meanings of words. Mumbo-jumbo is what science is reduced to when you ask what was there BEFORE the big bang. For if there was nothing, then what went bang?

                The first chapter of Genesis was not superseded at all, since no-one but a fool has believed in its literal truth for ages. Nor was the tale of Prometheus superseded. Do you have any sensitivity to literature? No. Obviously not.

                Christianity f not based on a book. Where did you get that idea?

        • Fergus Pickering

          You mean lie man-made global warmig. That sort of nonsense?

          • rtj1211

            They learned from the Catholic Church and the solar system, didn’t they?!

            • Fergus Pickering

              I think your syntax is shaky which makes your statement nonsense. I can’t remember learning about te solar sysyem at school. I read about it. In books, don’t you know.

      • Daidragon

        There are no christian children. Just children. Adults put the religion in their heads. Secular education is the only way. They should even take RE off the curriculum.

        • la catholic state

          Baptised children are Christian children. We don’t want secular educatption……we are not secularists. Keep the thing for your un discerning selves

          • rtj1211

            Baptised Children are inducted into an arbitrary world without having given their consent.

            What you mean is that you adults consider those children to be your spiritual slaves on your plantation and that’s that.

        • Fergus Pickering

          Adults put the education in their heads too.

      • rtj1211

        Are ‘Christian Children’ really Christian or ‘sons and daughters of parents who wish to impose Christianity upon them’??

        Children deserve an education which allows them to explore the precepts, tenets and values of different religious/philosphical systems, rendering them most likely to choose one most in tune with their character, their temperament and the reality of their own generation.

        Sounds to me like you are a totalitarian. No doubt you hate the more totalitarian ranks of politics for espousing in the secular what you espouse in the religious sphere??

        • la catholic state

          Once a child is Baptised….that child is Christian. And there is nothing anyone can do about it. For totalitarianism in all its ugliness….look to your drab uninspiring secular state schools.

    • Adrian Bailey

      The church schools ARE state funded.

      • Bonkim

        Historic – part of the British scene and by and large accepted by the majority. Not sure if British faith schools actively indoctrinated pupils in their religions although establishing a broad ethos. Any that actively seek to impose foreign cultural and sectarian values are suspect. You may think that unfair but state funding should not be given to such. Will of the majority should prevail in a democracy.

    • Fergus Pickering

      Why not? Christianity is the state religion.

      • Bonkim

        that would change as most don’t give a damn about the COE which itself has transformed over the centuries/decades and sown the seeds of its own demise by deviating from the teachings of the Bible. According to the Bible Church and State cannot have the same ruler.

        • Fergus Pickering

          Since when was the Bible the arbiter of the Christian Church. We are not Jews of Muslims. We are not a religion of the book. Christ IS Christianity. Or were you not told?.

          • Bonkim

            No wonder Christianity is no longer thriving given that those who profess the faith have no clue to the basics.

            And Christians don’t have to be told by other humans – they can read it straight from the book – that is those Christians who believe in the Bible.

            • Fergus Pickering

              You are an evangelical protestant, I perceive. And sadly in error.

              • Bonkim

                Wrong on both counts. If Christ is Christianity surely the word of God should be taken as the guide – not some flowery tracts made up by worldly men and women.

                • Fergus Pickering

                  What kind of a Christian are you then? If you are not one then what do you know about it? And indeed what business is it for yours, as the Yorkshireman said to the Southerner at a Roses match.

                • Bonkim

                  It is everyone’s business to be aware of the world around them. How many varieties of Christians or Muslims or any other brands of religion are there in the world? Now if all claim to have the one and only true God on their side – who is right?

      • rtj1211

        That is not a valid argument. That become the case before universal suffrage and has certainly never been given explicit consent of the people.

        The lack of people sitting in church pews suggests that it might get rather short shrift, unless the only alternative was Wahhabi Islam.

        That’s the sort of nonsensical choice that British Establishment figureheads come up with every week in Whitehall, isn’t it??

  • Hexhamgeezer

    We don’t need !$lamic schools – simples.

  • Kitty MLB

    Is this dealing with extremism in Schools. And we do know what religion these
    people belong to and its not Hindus, Sikhs etc..
    One might say why should those who live peacefully suffer because of the intolerant
    but that is just the way it is. Can we just remove one without so much caterwauling
    especially from the Left.
    But yes this is a Christian country, our church schools must stay regardless of what happens to faith schools…and are there that many other faith schools? such as a
    Hindu school.

    • telemachus

      This is a multi-ethnic multifaith country
      Accept this and adapt
      Islamophobia has no place outside Egypt

      • Alexsandr

        there is no place in this country for a violent mysogenistic cult either. One that preaches that the penalty for apostasy should be death.

        • Bonkim

          You mean like how Christian justice was dispensed by the Holy orders.

          • Alexsandr

            I am not going to defend any religion as an athiest.
            but I think Christianity has grown up, unlike some other religions Posting stuff about atrocities from the past doesnt help much really does it?

            • Bonkim

              You mean Christianity as practised today has little bearing on the teachings of the Bible and as intended by Jesus Christ. I would agree with that. Which then allows the assumption that ones professed religion is more a political, cultural, and national label than a faith. Faith by definition is not rational – ‘grown’ up equates to accepting any and all deviations from the original teaching – regrettably some like the Islamists are still stuck in their time-warp and believe that their God in the one and only true God and his teachings recorded in Arabic and interpreted by their Mullahs the final word. Comparisons with the past is part of the story – only some faiths have yet to come to the present.

      • Kitty MLB

        Oh dear little wasp.
        This is a Christian country and those who move here except that and
        practice their own religions peacefully. Only those intolerant types
        who wish to take us back to the dark ages have issues. They have to
        accept others or return to their birthplace.
        Another thing. A phobia is a irrational fear such as a fear of spiders.
        There is nothing irrational about fearing those who may wish to send
        us to oblivion.

        • Alexsandr

          ‘A phobia is a irrational fear’ – quite

        • telemachus

          When I was a boy in Lacashire we were brought up to suspect the Irish but particularly the Irish Catholics and Catholics in general
          We were told that this was a Protestant country
          And Popery came in with the Irish immigrants
          (“the left footers in our midst were all micks and should get on a boat back to Dublin”)
          *
          So you see Ladybird we have come a long way
          Do not follow the herd and regress

          • Bonkim

            Lucky you were not lynched by the Holy Inquisition telemachus.

          • Colonel Mustard

            I always thought your upbringing must have been weird to turn you into the fellow you are. You shouldn’t presume that your experiences as a boy were universal but I understand that many socialist aversions and hatreds are reflected from psychoses rooted in abnormal childhood experiences.

            • rtj1211

              And many extreme right wingers suffer from the same psychoses.

              The only difference is the nature of the constructs to be found within.

              Your inability to confront the MIME complex which murders globally for private profit. Nothing to do with socialism, to do with facts.

              Your inability to link the CIA and MI6 to Osama bin Laden’s campaign in Afghanistan, the root of radical Islam today.

              Your inability to demand consequences for such behaviour whilst declaring all who dissent insane.

              • Colonel Mustard

                All of which rests on the presumption/prejudice that I am an “extreme right winger”.

                I’m not. I detest all politicians but Labour and their tribalist propagandists most of all – telemachus being an especially nasty example as his prolific comments here evidence.

                Cherry picking a couple of your own hobby horses in an attempt to excuse his behaviour here won’t wash.

                PS Please advise how I go about ‘demanding’ consequences. Can I also ‘demand’ consequences for what New Labour did here?

        • Bonkim

          Christianity in Britain spread during the dark ages when most people were illiterate and did what they were told by their superiors. People of Britain feared being branded witches and heretics if they did not toe the line and lived in fear of the red-cloaked terrors.

          • Hexhamgeezer

            Who were these ‘dark age’ ‘red cloaked terrors’?

            • Bonkim

              “Since Christianity was the dominant religion during the Middle Ages (in Europe), attempts to purify the church and society led to many Christian campaigns against other religions. These campaigns were led by bishops, scholars and warriors who made efforts to make the Christian world free of all the non-Christians. This included Jews, Muslims and Pagans and Gypsies. Jews in fact suffered the most as they were considered to be the greatest threat to Christianity.”

              Who the Re-Cloaked terrors were – research it out yourselves.

              • Hexhamgeezer

                Dark Ages 5-15th century?

                • Bonkim

                  Period spanning dark and Middle Ages – Period during which the Roman Church became supreme – yes latter part would the medieval times. Also whether you wish to define dark ages as a symbolic period of blind faith and lack of any intelligent questioning or according to the eras used by Historians. Either way the point was about the dominant Church and arbitrary justice dispensed for heresy.

        • Daidragon

          Thinking everyone that followed a certain religion is a terrorist who wants to send you ‘to oblivion’ isn’t just irrational, it’s paranoid.

          • Bonkim

            Regrettably acts of a handful blacken the rest. That is the human condition. People are fearful of their social organisation broken up or corrupted and being taken over by strange ideas and faiths; looking at the bitter fruits of some of these faiths at locations where they dominate, every reason to justify such irrational fear – as you say paranoia.

            • rtj1211

              Fear of organisations breaking up is only justified if the people running them are so useless and incompetent that they cannot withstand challenge.

              • Bonkim

                Best to be sceptical and ward off dilution. Britain has prospered over the past few centuries because of the ability to adapt and change which also involved building walls against undesirable influences. Everything has a limit. Yes collapse of Empire and slow waning of British influence in world affairs and also the ascendancy of Europe and the East, etc, driving people into isolationism.

        • rtj1211

          I was born here as a white male and do not consider the country to be the slightest Christian in terms of its acts and deeds rather than its tracts and creeds.

          It is a corrupt, warmongering, prejudiced, class-ridden society which would have murdered Jesus every day of the week, as he had the temerity to stand up for the working class and confront the Establishment head on.

          I have never voted for the Labour Party and doubt I ever will.

          I do ask you to consider how many countries we have threatened with oblivion when they have not threatened us first.

          Consider the lies we made up to justify our murdering. Consider our Pontius Pilate-style approach to UK-US relations.

          The murders carried out on Britons by radical Muslims are as nothing compared to the murders carried out by the British on entirely innocent, moderate Muslims overseas.

          If you can neither see this, accept this nor understand this, I think you need to ask whether you are of sound mind.

      • Bonkim

        We probably need a referendum to decide whether or not to deport telemachus and his tribe to Saudi Arabia.

        • Baron

          Why waist money on a referendum, a one way ticket should do it, Bonkim.

          • Bonkim

            Britain is a fair country and telemachus has his human rights.

            • Hexhamgeezer

              He isn’t human.

              • Bonkim

                But the British are humane! It is not cricket to do away with humans or animals without due process of law as they do elsewhere.

            • Inverted Meniscus

              He is a socialist nutter not human.

              • Bonkim

                All socialists are not nutters and British socialism has kept extremists at bay all through the past decades when Europe was infested by neo-Nazis.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Gordon Brown is a socialist nutter and did enough damage to this country to make the most extreme of dictators green with envy. Ed Miliband is also a socialist nutter and though utterly preposterous, is keen to inflict even more damage and misery.

                • Bonkim

                  I like Ed.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Not very patriotic then. Happy to see this country destroyed by a preposterous, sanctimonious, narcissistic, incompetent oaf.

                • Bonkim

                  Why should liking Ed or Dave be considered unpatriotic? British society will be destroyed by extremist and ignorant nutters calling others unpatriotic rather than by those that looking for solutions calmly and purposefully. Uniting people cannot be done by criticising those that don’t march to your call.

              • rtj1211

                Very dangerous ground defining humanity according to your political prejudice.

                Shades of Hitler and the Jews, that. Certainly far worse than McCarthyism in the USA.

        • Inverted Meniscus

          I predict a 100% yes vote.

      • Baron

        Why Egypt, telemachus? Explain, please.

      • rtj1211

        A phobia for moderate Islam, perhaps not. A phobia for extremist Wahhabi Islam is the place of every sane society on Earth.

    • Bonkim

      Doubt if Britain can be called a Christian country except in terms of history. One can also question whether Christianity as professed by the established Church and others who profess to be Christians is indeed that derived from the Bible. Easy to confuse religion with cultural traditions.

      • la catholic state

        If Britain wasn’t a Christian country….nobody would flock to it.

        • Bonkim

          I would have thought Lourdes would be better destination for those seeking Christianity.

          People flock to Britain for the Lolly – and not just heathens – many Catholics from Poland and Eastern Europe come here too – one assumes they would have found their Holy Fathers back home more accommodating of their spiritual needs.

    • Daidragon

      A christian country with less than 7% regular church attendance? Laughable.

      • Kitty MLB

        You don’t need to attend church to be a Christian,
        God doesn’t belong to the Church or those who use
        their God as a shroud to hide behind as they commit
        atrocities.

        • Daidragon

          The christian God demands worship. So you really DO need to go to church if you are a proper christian and not just a fascist pretending to be a christian.

  • Kaine

    “the best ones are beating applicants off”

    Surely a poor choice off words when discussing Catholic clergy and children?

    • JoeDM

      At least it wasn’t ‘w**king applicants off’ !!!

      Which may have been even more appropriate.

  • Robertus Maximus

    “The best ones are beating applicants off with sticks.”

    Well, that’s the death knell for Church Schools as far as Labour is concerned. As Quentin Crisp once said, “Never keep up with the Joneses. Drag them down to your level.” That is Labour’s motto in a nutshell.

    • telemachus

      Labour has plidged to revive further education with centres of excellence

      Stephen Twigg in 2012 said accredited centres would become models of excellence to tackle the skills gap and educational needs

      Labour would boost the status of technical and vocational training in England by accrediting a string of “national centres of excellence” in key sectors such as engineering and IT, Stephen Twigg, the shadow education secretary, announces on Wednesday.

      The aim would be to raise the quality and profile of the country’s premier further education colleges to that of the leading universities and their prestigious counterparts overseas. The colleges are responsible for training and educating a majority of the country’s young adults once they have left school.

      • Baron

        Labour fugged up bigger than big when they introduced cmprehensives. They should never be allowed anywhere near our children.

        • telemachus

          Before the comprehensives the top 11% got a good education
          The rest were consigned to the dustbin

          • Colonel Mustard

            You are lying for Labour again. The proportion of pupils in state-funded grammar schools was just under 38% in 1947 and 25% in 1965. The 11+ selected the top 25%. That proportion gradually declined as grammar schools gave way to comprehensives and general educational standards began to drop accordingly. The race towards educational mediocrity was instigated by Labour party policy.

            The 1963 Newsom Report was called for in 1961 by the Minister of Education in a Conservative Government to advise him on the education of pupils aged 13 to 16 of average and less than average ability. The Robbins report on higher education was also called for by a Conservative government about the same time.

            • telemachus

              Now Grammar Schools are just 4%

              • Colonel Mustard

                You dodge and weave yet again. Of course they are because your party abolished them.

                • telemachus

                  To the good of the majority
                  I am sick to death of the drive to elitism represented by the Free/Academy project of Gove
                  It leads for example to the Sparkbrook debacle for which Gove apologised at the weekend

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Which has absolutely nothing to do with your original lie that grammar schools only educated the top 11%.

                  Even so, the assertion that the abolition of grammar schools was “to the good of the majority” is highly debatable. Never mind, when your wretched party is back in power you can destroy the Free/Academy project and re-assert control over education by lefty ideologists and the unions to ensure an equality of misery and the death of aspiration for all pupils.

                  PS Some people are sick to death of you and what you represent.

                • telemachus

                  You cannot deny that one of the main drivers of the Sparkbrook mess was the independence drive pushed by Gove onto many of those schools
                  Unintended consequences Mustard
                  Unintended consequences
                  Would not have happened on the watch of the last Education Secretary

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  And yet more lies. You might like to take a look at Labour’s immigration policies to discover the root cause.

                • Fergus Pickering

                  I can deny it. I do.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  No to the detriment of all.

                • Fergus Pickering

                  Sick to death are you? Is it to happen soon? I will attend the funeral I assure you. To make sure you really are dead, that is.

                • Hexhamgeezer

                  A stake through the heart should do it.

                • Fergus Pickering

                  Make that two stakes.

                • Kitty MLB

                  No, the stake through the heart will not do, as someone said.
                  Tele is a cat. A cat sidlne from Celtic mythology, with the same 9 lives, in different clones ( as we know) and guardian of
                  the gates of the underworld. And with great powers and darkness within.
                  Just remember there is only one way to kill this cat, and good
                  luck old fellow with all that.

                • Fergus Pickering

                  Nine stakes?

                • Kitty MLB

                  No, I was gently moving you boys away from that idea. Tele
                  is not a vampire, he’s here during the day, And he’s not cold
                  blooded as he finds Theresa May attractive. So the Dracula
                  theory will not work. Just pop some Conservative blue blood
                  in his veins.. that might see him off, and you have to do it
                  Fergus, your older and wise, as well as flattery sometimes
                  working.

                • telemachus

                  May is attractive to men as a child is attracted to danger
                  I have recently described her as Dark and Howardesque
                  She is dangerous even to the evil
                  Ask Gove
                  *
                  Now let us talk Yvette

                • Kitty MLB

                  ‘ Howardesque’ You mean something of the night about her.
                  I don’t think so little wasp.
                  Why on earth would anyone wish to speak of Yvette, I mean
                  anyone who could marry Ed Balls clearly is of no sound mind.

                • Terry Field

                  She is fantastic – and she is dealing with a politicised, rotten, corrupt, unaccountable and dangerous police force that has been put of control by the incompetence and spinelessness of previous administrations,

                • Terry Field

                  I think the drive under Mr Gove – and excellent Education Secretary – is for the identification of talent and its application to excellence in training and work output.
                  I rather like excellence, talent being exploited, and the resulting elites appearing, strong and valuable.

          • Baron

            After the comprehensives, everyone who attended them was consigned to the dustbin.

            • Daidragon

              Funny how I know so many comp boys and girls who went to university then. Comprehensive schools have been a massive success. Massive. One of the greatest vehicles for social mobility in our history. They still continue to churn out the vast majority of our brightest and best undergraduates despite having being under ideological attack for the last 30 years.

              • Inverted Meniscus

                Yes what a success we have on our hands with some of the highest illiteracy rates in Europe. You socialist nutters simply don’t do honesty do you.

              • Fergus Pickering

                This is sheer assertion. Facts please. Of course most university students went to Comprehensive. 90)% of our pupils go to themj.

              • Colonel Mustard

                Yes, how is that Welsh Labour education thing going?

                The most recent Pisa international education tests, which are run by the OECD, ranked Wales bottom in the UK. Those 2012 Pisa tests in science, maths, and reading were taken by 500,000 15-year-olds in 68 countries. The OECD review said: “From an international perspective, the performance of 15-year-olds in Wales on Pisa is low overall, and there are too many students performing at low levels.”

                The Pisa 2012 reading and science assessments showed that almost one in five Welsh students did not achieve level two which is considered the baseline of proficiency at which students begin to demonstrate competencies to actively participate in life. The pace of reform has been too fast and lacks a long-term vision, an adequate school improvement infrastructure and a clear implementation strategy all stakeholders share. For mathematics this proportion was even higher, almost 30%. These levels are among the lowest in OECD countries.

                The Welsh Education Minister? Huw Lewis – Labour & Coop.

              • Baron

                Daigragon, there are still some who believe extermination camps were a massive success. It all depends where one stands, and how one defines success.

          • Fergus Pickering

            And now they all are. Bog standard as your mate Alistair Campbell said.

          • Damaris Tighe

            This is boll****. I failed my 11 plus & went to a secondary modern. I left with better A level results than my contemporaries in the local grammar & went on to univ. where I got a good degree. I wasn’t the only one who did well at our school. This is not to say that there was nothing wrong with the old system – maybe the 11 plus was at too young an age, or IQ tests are not the best way to assess intelligence. Also we had a great headmaster who encouraged us which is of course important. But why throw out the baby with the bathwater? Grammar schools empowered working class kids. There was far more social mobility in the 1960s than there is now & it’s getting worse (viz. old etonians in the gov.)

            • telemachus

              Congratulations
              But you must be fairly unique
              *
              There is in fact another
              A social dimension here
              Where the Governors in Birmingham have it right is that education is to mould the minds of our children
              The comprehensive project was to imbue egalitarian values throughout society

              • Damaris Tighe

                I was far from unique – I mentioned in my post that there were others at my school with the same story. I also met several people in later life who went to univ. from secondary modern schools, including my husband. But don’t let facts get in the way of a good prejudice!

                • Damaris Tighe

                  The comprehensive project indeed aimed to imbue egalitarian values in society, ie, equally uneducated. Except for the Eton boys of course.

            • Fergus Pickering

              The great England cricket Captain, Graham Gooch went to a Secondary Modern. So did Brian Blessed, the genial and heavily bearded actor who shouts a lot. I’m not sure what that proves.

              David Gower, whose team was blackwashed TWICE, attended a public school. Nice chap though.

          • Terry Field

            No. Untrue.

      • Robertus Maximus

        Labour is congenitally incapable of the raising the standard of anything. It is largely due to their cynical policy of mass immigration – not mentioned in any manifesto – that we have the problem in Birmingham. They are liars and incompetents and will bankrupt the country if (Heaven forbid) they win the next election. For an example of how they “raise” standards, look at Mid Staffs Hospital – and so many others – and the fact that TWO THOUSAND patients die each month from dehydration. That is the only thing Labour does with any efficiency – degrade anything they lay their hands on.

        • telemachus

          For Goodness Sake
          Stafford was unmasked by Burnham
          Before Gordon doubled the NHS budget countless thousands were dying on waiting lists and hundreds of thousands more waiting in misery on waiting lists
          50% of patients died on cardiac waiting lists
          Pensioners spent 5 years racked in pain waiting for a new hip
          Yes doctors and nurses in some hospitals have lost their professionalism
          *
          But read any local paper or the Daily Mail and yo will see that they have not regained it
          Which Secretary of State authorised payments for hospitals to kill patients on the Liverpool Care Pathway?

          • Colonel Mustard

            More lies for Labour from telemachus. Stafford was not unmasked by Burnham. Julie Bailey, whose mother died in the hospital in 2007, started a campaign, called Cure the NHS, to demand changes in the hospital. She was supported by the Staffordshire Newsletter, but the Public and Patient Involvement Forum and the Governors of the Trust were defensive.

            The scandal came to national attention because of an investigation by the Healthcare Commission. The commission was first alerted by the “apparently high mortality rates in patients admitted as emergencies”. When the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust, which is responsible for running the hospital, failed to provide what the commission considered an adequate explanation, a full-scale investigation was carried out between March and October 2008. Burnham only reluctantly agreed to a limited enquiry in July 2009 after voting against a full public enquiry.

            The Health Service Journal described this reluctance:-

            “Health secretary Andy Burnham has defended his decision to stop short of launching a full public inquiry into failures at Mid Staffordshire foundation trust, telling HSJ he thought it would be “distracting to managers”.

            Yesterday Mr Burnham announced there would be an independent inquiry chaired by Robert Francis QC to hear evidence from patients and families and identify lessons for the future. Mr Burnham told HSJ: “The demands were for a full public inquiry but my thoughts were that would distract the management.”

            Having already ignored 81 separate calls for an investigation into practices at the Trust, Hansard records show that in 2009, Andy Burnham and indeed most of the Labour party voted against a Public Inquiry into the Mid Staffs scandal.

            In early January 2010, a memo sent by one of Burnham’s junior Health Ministers to a senior boss at the CQC called for the report into Mid Staffs “to be careful about its language” and “given the political environment” (a few months before a General Election) Labour and Burnham wanted the report to be “largely positive”.

            Professor Sir Brian Jarman, of Imperial College London described the Labour health team as a “Denial machine”.

            The Wiki entry on this is a disgrace, carefully edited to remove criticism of Burnham and describing the scandal as occurring in the “late 2000s” to slyly implicate the Coalition. And now Burnham is trying to use Mid-Staffs to attack the Tories on privatisation.

            • telemachus

              You see most posters here read the Mail
              At least the website
              And know quite well that Hunt has not got a grip on quality
              Indeed by lambasting rather than supporting he is making things worse day on day

              • Inverted Meniscus

                More lies.

              • Fergus Pickering

                It appears you read the website too. Most real news appears in the Mail.

              • Colonel Mustard

                Once again you dodge and weave, responding to refutation with diversion. I have refuted two of your lies here this morning and instead of having the grace to admit that you were wrong and retract your assertions you just go onto another Tory attack angle. That more or less confirms that your original statements were deliberately intended to deceive and/or misrepresent.

                And you have the arrogance to insist that you are “reasonable”. You are not. You are a dishonest propagandist who writes lies for Labour.

            • Robertus Maximus

              What a good, well-researched comment. I recall the Mid Staffs protesters saying that when they held a protest outside the hospital and wanted to speak to Burnham, he swept past them and refused to even acknowledge their presence. He is a first class scoundrel (the moderator would remove my preferred word), but then there were so many in that New Labour government, just ask the people of Iraq – those that are still alive and still have their wits, that is.

              • telemachus

                We will take no lessons from those who try to score points over National Security
                Brown put in the magnificent investment
                This was a necessary precursor of Burnhams drive on quality
                *
                We need to get down on our knees to thank these two

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  That was a party political lie cast on behalf of the Labour Party, the party of lies, lying, liars, mediocrity, failure and deceit.

          • Inverted Meniscus

            And yet we heard nothing about it and nothing was done until the Coalition came to power. Labour the party of lies, lying, liars, mediocrity, failure, selfishness and deceit. Qualities perfectly encapsulated by Miliband, Balls, Burnham and the test of the scum.

            • Robertus Maximus

              As with Fergus, very well put.

          • Fergus Pickering

            Unmasked? They just kept on killing people throughot Labour’s tenure of office. Under the Tories the NHS was at least cheap.Under Labour it cost double the money and was no better. Under the Tories plus it has become better.

            • Robertus Maximus

              Very well put.

              • Fergus Pickering

                Thank you. I thought so too.

          • Baron

            You don’t get it, telemachus, the stuff you mention that Labour did is akin to the crew on the Titanic switching to bigger buckets to get the water out of the sinking ship. Where Labour fugged up, again bigger than big, is when they set up the NHS, a small replica of communism in the first place.

            This, my sparring partner, is the crime. The paradigm of ‘free at the point of delivery’ on which the NHS rests isn’t doable in real life, the NHS like the Red Menace of the East will also collapse. Rationing treatment through NICE ukaz will be seen even less palatable that allocating it by money.

            • telemachus

              Funnily enough I agree with you
              However the NHS is a sacred cow and change to a workable system will be difficult and could only be delivered by a socialist government
              Continuing to try and deliver everything via the NHS is unaffordable
              We must start the debate about what is NECESSARY as opposed to what is desirable
              There are many issues including whether an ageist policy which used to limit expense is in fact reasonable

              • Colonel Mustard

                That is arrant nonsense. We are in a propaganda war where anything proposed by the Coalition/Tories is ‘bad’ and opposed/misrepresented and anything asserted by Labour is ‘true’ and to be advocated with a lot of emotive guff.

          • Terry Field

            I recall the Labour Party massively increased the budget of the NHS. I recall they did nothing to improve its quality of management. I recall the vast majority of the funds went to the salaries and the conditions of the staff.
            I see since then there has been only modest increases in outcomes and overall performance.
            It is still run like an asylum, with no change in the fundamental lunacy of the structure and the funding method.

            • telemachus

              Yes
              What we need now
              Is a debate on what we can actually afford
              GP treatment is one thing
              But can we afford massive bills for chemotherapy in terminal cancer
              Can we afford liver transplants for alcoholics
              Can we afford to put new joints into elderly patients with very short life spans

              • Terry Field

                Thanks for the note. Re the health system, I would point out the simple truth that an insurance based system with a guarantee that the ‘poor’ (however defined)have equal access – not the US model but the European model – allows the individual to access and directly pay for health care he requires -demands -chooses – a combination of all three – and the cost of the premium then reduces his or her ability to buy other -more trivial – goods.
                That means the total spend on healthcare in those countries is greater than the UK, the populations buy more healthcare and less other goods and services than do the British, for equal values of income.
                That removes your problem about what ‘we’ can afford. It becomes a decision of the individual that is then simply accumulated together at the year end and the cost of the insurance system is then paid.
                Anyone who has lived in the UK and in European countries knows there is a world of difference.
                A VASTLY BETTER AND MORE RATIONAL SYSTEM THAN THE CRACK-BRAINED TAX-BASED NHS.
                Healthcare offerings will focus on demand as expressing need. That is the inverse of the British permanent poverty-based queuing system
                That is better represented in the European and US systems than in the UK.
                AN example – prosthetic hips and knees are a catch all design in the NHS but there are matches to need in Europe and the US – a more complex item in tougher alloys and metals for an athlete compared to an OAP. Result – they last MUCH longer than the British NHS pretty third-rate offering.
                The NHS is as flawed an idea as was Soviet communism. You cannot ‘manage’ your way out of structural and conceptual insanity. You scrap the system; get rid of it; replace it.

          • Alistair Moulden

            The misunderstanding of the Liverpool Care Pathway by a few health professionals and the subsequent bandwagon mentality of the Daily Mail has changed nothing. The fundamental aspects of the LCP remain and rightly so – it’s just that we are no longer allowed to call it the LCP by name. The LCP carried out properly
            by those who understand it (of whom many) gives dignity to the patient and their family when they most need it.

        • Terry Field

          I recall the Labour Party massively increased the budget of the NHS. I recall they did nothing to improve its quality of management. I recall the vast majority of the funds went to the salaries and the conditions of the staff.
          I see since then there has been only modest increases in outcomes and overall performance.
          It is still run like an asylum, with no change in the fundamental lunacy of the structure and the funding source.

          • Robertus Maximus

            I think your excellent point applies to everything the Left lay their grubby little hands on.

        • Alistair Moulden

          Well said – as Chris Patten said, “dogs bark, cats miaow and labour puts up taxes”.

          • Robertus Maximus

            For once I actually agree with Chris Patten. I must be in need of therapy.

      • Hexhamgeezer

        Steven Twigg? Epic comment fail.

        • telemachus

          Twigg was the Education Secretary that announced this on June 5 2013
          Not 2012
          I apologise

  • DaveTheRave

    No, isn’t the situation complex enough as it is?

  • la catholic state

    Also….Im not against the idea of turning secular state schools into Faith state schools when possible. It’s best if secular schools are the minority….as atheist children surely must be in the minority.

    • Kaine

      There is no such thing as a Christian child, any more than there are logical positivist children or Marxist-Leninist children. There are only children with Christian parents.

      • Bonkim

        and brainwashed without consent which is child abuse.

        • la catholic state

          I do not allow any secular school to brainwash my kids….though they seem eager to. Bluegh.

          • Bonkim

            With your church at hand why do you need schools to brainwash your child. Can a child consent to baptism?

        • Alexsandr

          or made to wear religious stuff they dont understand while too young. how can a 7 year old girl understand why he has to wear a head scarf? i thought the point of hijabs was to stop men having impure thoughts. about a 7 tear old? what ret.

          • Bonkim

            With paedophiles around – simple precaution I suppose.

            • Alexsandr

              hijab and tight jeans? thats gonna work.

              • Bonkim

                Wait until Quatar unveils the latest Islamic fashion at their International Football event.

                • Alexsandr

                  if they get to keep it -seeing there are questions about how they got the right to state it.
                  oh, sorry, thats waycist -sepp blatter says so.

                • Bonkim

                  Sepp Blatter’s chips are down. Circumstantial evidence is sufficient for me.

          • rtj1211

            And boys play cowboys and indians to emulate their fathers going to war??

      • la catholic state

        Yes there is. A Christian child is a child who has been Baptised.

        • Alexsandr

          just because you have been christianed does not make you christian. to be christian you have to believe Jesus died for your sins.

          • la catholic state

            First you have to be Baptised. If you are not Baptised….you are not Christian.

            • Alexsandr

              if you are not baptised you are not a member of an organised church. you can still be a christian.

            • Kaine

              Because my relationship with Jesus as my personal saviour is dependent upon a celibate man in a dress sprinkling water over my head.

        • Bonkim

          without its consent – that I would have thought was forced conversion = child abuse. True baptism when the young person is grown up and accepts the faith voluntarily – not because parents force it to in childhood.

        • Dave Hogarth

          You really are full of it. How about letting the child decide for themselves when they are mature? Or is that concept too modern for you?

        • rtj1211

          You mean the Christian Church as accepted that child into its community.

          That’s a very different proposition to the child giving their informed consent to become a member.

    • Bonkim

      You are as bad as telemachus and need to be deported to Brazil.

    • JoeDM

      All schools should have a secular core national curriculum. They can then add the ritual supertition stuff on as an extra.

      • la catholic state

        As long as that core curriculum is academic only…..then fine. But no state brainwashing, social engineering, immorality, or politicking.

        • rtj1211

          AS opposed to Catholic Church brainwashing (The Pope is Infallible is brainwashing of the highest order), social engineering (no condoms is social engineering), immorality (giving your body to one man for life without any knowledge of the implications of that statement is truly immoral) or poliiticking (the Pope going on any number of State visits to politic with State leaders is politicking par excellence)??

          • la catholic state

            The Catholic Church teaches the truth…..and all reason comes from it. Immorality, emotionalism discrimination and trite nonsense is the hallmark of a state secular school.
            I wouldn’t send a dog to some of them.

    • rtj1211

      I’m sure in this modern, secular world you will provide verifiable, independent statistics which back up your contention that ‘atheist children must be in the minority’.

      I would suggest that the only majority amongst children is that of agnosticm, they not being yet of an age where the abstract thought necessary to become truly committed to a religious faith is to be found within their minds.

      What you mean is, parents should have the right to indoctrinate their children in their faith of choice.

      It’s a viewpoint, but it’s one which only works reliably for the naturally submissive, rather than the intellectually curious……..

  • la catholic state

    I sincerely hope the Bishops mean that the Faith is taught and practised at Catholic schools. If not…..then we parents must make sure it is! Write letters to the Head…and most especially to Chair of Governors and tell them what you want. We don’t want secular schools dressed up as Catholic.

  • Baron

    We may need faith schools, Melanie, but what if some of the audience in the video below are teachers, should we embrace the values they say they all share?

    http://youtu.be/egjo70WM4Oc

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