Coffee House

After being Junckered, the Cameron circle now fear for the renegotiation

29 June 2014

11:42 AM

29 June 2014

11:42 AM

Getting Junckered was not an enjoyable experience for Downing Street. Not only has David Cameron lost his battle to stop the former Luxembourg PM becoming Commission President he has also discovered that Angela Merkel’s assurances to him can be trumped by her domestic political concerns.

Considering how Merkel is the hinge on which Cameron’s renegotiation strategy turns, this is worrying for him. As I report in the Mail on Sunday, members of Cameron’s circle are now contemplating that the renegotiation might not deliver enough substantive change for the UK to stay in. As one of those who knows Cameron best puts it, ‘They might plump the cushions for us but the train isn’t slowing down and the points are still set the same way.’


Cameron’s negotiating tactics will now become more aggressive. One Number 10 source says he will be ‘tough and harsh’. It will be made quite clear that without real change, the British public will vote to leave.

Eurosceptic Cabinet ministers regard this shift as necessary but not sufficient. One tells me that Cameron and Number 10 are ‘catching up with reality.’

The question now is, does Merkel try and make things up to Cameron? Will there be a series of measures designed to address Britain’s concerns in the coming months? If there are, then Britain’s EU membership is salvageable. But if there are not, it will be a sign that Europe isn’t prepared to do what’s needed to stop Britain leaving.

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Show comments
  • tolpuddle1

    Q. Cameron isn’t a Eurosceptic – so why is he pretending to be ?

    A. Because he’s an opportunistic bag of wind.

  • tolpuddle1

    Only a complete p**t would have been Junckered……oh, Cameron was ?

    “Cameron’s tactics will now become more aggressive” – i.e. “Do what we say or Britain will blow its head off.”


    Will Merkel try to make things up to Cameron ? Does she really need to ? – even though the sun never sets on our Glorious Empire and Britain is Master of the World…..oh, that was NINETEEN 14 ?

    Perhaps she’ll seek for this reconciliation with Britain with the German translations of such touching English phrases as FO or Get Lost.

  • cambridgeelephant

    It’s a pantomime waste of time and we all know it. Any changes will be entirely cosmetic and the choice is and will remain British abolition on the one hand or British self government on the other. Which is it ?

  • AtMyDeskToday

    There is an assumption in all of this debate that Juncker is a power in his own right. In reality he is a “made man”, the creature of his supporters. Assume he is intransigent on British demands for change and we vote to leave, and are clearly seen to make a success of it. Others look on with interest and think to do the same, in time Juncker is seen as the man who brought down the EU. Something he will be keen to avoid. Is Camoron smart enough to exploit this?

  • pobinr

    Corporatism = Anyone with power, clout & money gets to influence & shape policies and the voter is left at the bottom of the heap & counts for nothing.

    That is the EU for you >

    The EU is corrupt corporatism >

  • pobinr

    The EU and its big business sponsors are set upon a United States of Europe.
    Labour are pro EU sponsored by big business such as JML who donated £1.6m in shares.
    The EU is a corporatist’s dream brought to you courtesy of the left.
    ‘British Job for British workers ‘ Gordon Brown was having his strings pulled by big business when he opened the flood gates to cheap EU migrant labour that’s taken homes & jobs & led to 14% wage compression.
    Utter betrayal of the British working class & trade unionists.
    I can’t believe trade unions still sponsor the slabour party that now stands for cheap East European labour.

    Costa, Starbucks Pizza Express, hotleliers etc all benefit from an endless supply of min wage staff.
    The rest of us put up with more traffic congestion, the worst housing shoirtage since WWII & consequently highest prices in real terms, longer NHS queues, class with kids that don’t speak English.
    The social housing queue in Southampton is now 8+ years long.
    Every other name on the maternity cots is East European.

    I was speaking to Pole the other day at 11am.
    I asked him how come you’re not at work?
    He replied he ‘Couldn’t get any more chef work here’
    I said will you be going back to Poland then?
    He replied ‘No I steel beetar off here’ !
    On the dole !

    Retired East Europeans that have been here a years are entitled to their £120 a month pension topped up to around £500 a month UK pension paid for by us. We pay NI for 40 years to get a UK pension. They pay for 0 years!

    I bought a 2 flat that had had 6 Lithuanians living in.
    The new working class living like this with almost no overheads so undercutting wages for locals & driving down living standards for people with mortgages to pay & making slumlords & min wage employers richer.

    If you hate your country & hate democracy & you love more & more centralised control & love higher house prices & more overcrowding then don’t vote UKIP

    • livnletliv

      Was glad to see the owner of JML on the 6pm news a few nights ago saying he thinks we need to leave the EU, he is not happy with labours direction. He is not the only one, Ian Wallace said the same a few weeks ago when he left labour to join UKIP as well as many others who have left labour and gone to UKIP.

  • JonBW

    The real question is whether Cameron has the bottle – or the principle – to take us out of the EU, or even give us an in/out referendum.

    I don’t belive that he has.

  • black11hawk

    ‘They might plump the cushions for us but the train isn’t slowing down and the points are still set the same way.”

    I’m sorry, but who actually talks like that?

  • Conway

    So what we can conclude from this charade is that Merkel is untrustworthy (who’d a thunk it?), we have no influence in the EU whatsoever and there is no way that the EU is going to be deflected from its goal of turning itself into a federal nation. Score one for reality biting at last. Perhaps now we can leave and run our own lives.

    • livnletliv

      They know Cameron will do anything, all they need do is stuff enough of our money in his pocket.

  • lakelander

    It will be made quite clear that without real change, the British public will vote to leave.

    And in the all to possible event that there is a Labour government the British public will be denied a vote. Won’t that be frustrating?

    • Conway

      Given the EU’s past record, even if we do vote to leave we’ll be made to vote again – and again – and again – until we give them the right answer. We need to vote for UKIP to get us out. If enough people vote UKIP (and aren’t put off by scare stories about a Labour government) we’ll get UKIP in sufficient strength.

      • lakelander

        Well, I’m scared about a Labour government so will be voting Conservative, for all that party’s imperfections.

        • livnletliv

          Better to vote UKIP, unless you want more of the same. The liblabcons have had their chance, for the last 100+ years. May be the only chance.

    • livnletliv

      Very, when we all vote UKIP.

  • Denis_Cooper

    Well, Cameron could make a start now by proposing a small EU treaty change to take the system for appointing the EU Commission including its President back to where it had been for more than three decades before Major agreed to it being changed to give the EU Parliament the power to veto over any Commission proposed by the EU leaders on the European Council, part of his wonderful “Game, set and match for Britain” Maastricht Treaty.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      That would be the most effective follow-up he could possibly make. It would be immediate and topical, be principled, is tangible and understandable by the People, and would provide a locus for domestic discussion on EU reform in the main. It would be a political boon for the Cameroons, and their support would begin waxing immediately following a few simple statements and actions.

      That’s why Dave won’t do it. He’s a political deadhead, on top of all his other failings. He doesn’t even know what’s good for him, let alone anybody else. He’s simply not fit… and that is all.

    • livnletliv

      He prefers to blackmail us, can’t you just tell that blackmail is how he has got to be where he is.

  • Richard N

    Empress Merkel’s ‘concession’ to her obedient slave Cameron, who has the job of figuring out how to make sure Britain stays in the German empire calling itself the EU, was to say that ‘ever closer union’ will always remain – but the speed at which the victims are reeled in can vary.

  • Richard N

    After being defeated over Juncker, Cameron immediately said that he will do his supposed ‘negotiations’ – and will then campaign to stay in the EU!

    In other words, even if he gets no concessions, he will still campaign to stay in the EU!!

    So what happened to the ‘consequences’ he threatened the EU with, in his acting performance imitating a eurosceptic last week?!

    If this doesn’t tell you that Cameron is committed to staying in the EU, NO MATTER WHAT, then nothing will.

    The only question for Cameron is what crumbs of supposed concessions he and his masters in the EU will have to cook up to make sure Britain stays in the EU prison camp.

    • Conway

      Those “consequences” were of the same order as the claim to “not let matters rest there”.

    • livnletliv

      Even his own party said last week he plans to dodge a referendum.

  • pobinr

    Germany failed to control Europe in two world wars, but Mrs. Merkel will ensure that they will do so economically over these next few years. Their fangs are already well & truly stuck into Greece’s neck.

  • DaveTheRave

    I don’t think Cameron could get a satisfactory renegotiation. Nor could any ‘British’ PM. Even the deputy PM thinks there is a case for reform…(!)
    More and more this issue is becoming clearer: either we stay in and accept the direction towards ever closer union, or we get out as soon as.
    I choose the latter.

  • Mynydd

    Anyone who thought Mr Cameron could re-negotiate our terms with the EU in two years want their heads read. Nothing in the EU, no matter how small, happens in two years. The talks on hairdresser’s shoes took longer. In reality Mr Cameron is controlled by his back benchers, and for better or worse, he is looking after the interests of the Conservative party rather than the countries.

    • Tom M

      “…..The talks on hairdresser’s shoes took longer….”
      My favourite was the length of time it took them to decide the position of rear-view mirrors on tractors.

  • Lady Magdalene

    Cameron threw away his negotiating position by announcing many times that he wants the UK to stay in the EU.

    But it doesn’t really matter: the EU is not going to return our Sovereignty and that’s what we want. A few minor concessions and tinkering with the Single Market to make the EU more competitive is not going to achieve anything.

    We want our Sovereignty restored. We do not want foreign politicians and Eurocrats making laws in our country.

    It’s IN – and governed by the EU.

    Or OUT – and self-government.

  • Machina22

    I had him pegged as a closet pro-European who makes the occasional Eurosceptic pledge for this or that in order to placate his base. Maybe I’ve given Cameron and his cronies too much credit; maybe they really, truly are naive enough to believe the EU can be ‘reformed within’ and that proper renegotiation is possible.

    I would pity them for their sudden realisation that the EU will out-manoeuvre them at every avenue if it weren’t for the fact that they’re utterly moronic to have thought their plans could work in the first place. Have they not learnt anything from our relations with the EU since we joined?

    • Conway

      I think they were perfectly well aware of the impossibility of renegotiation, but they have such contempt for the electorate they thought they could fool us again and pull off a Wilson. Times have changed; we have the Internet and social media, plus we have become more cynical.

      • livnletliv

        Even if he ever did have a referendum, he would let millions of immigrants to vote, plus add loads of conditions. We all know he is as sly as a fox.Can not believe any British person can even consider voting for the liblabcon cartel.

  • Kitty MLB

    There was never going to be any renegotiations in regards to
    this country or EU reforms the moment the cowardly EU leaders
    chose Juncker.The know he is for a United States of Europe
    and not for individual countries.He’s deceitful and untrustworthy,
    they know this.They told Cameron in private that they know
    Juncker is wrong for the job and yet still act like sheep.
    Let them reep what they sow as we move closer to a EU exit..

    • Conway

      You should have stopped after “EU reforms”.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …but that would have eliminated the requisite Camerluvvie smokescreen.

    • livnletliv

      As far as Merkel is concerned Juncker is ideal for the job, more drunk the better chance he will not read the small print.

  • Mike Barnes

    “As I report in the Mail on Sunday, members of Cameron’s circle are now contemplating that the renegotiation might not deliver enough substantive change for the UK to stay in. ”

    So Nigel Farage and UKIP were right all along and the renegotiation was a pipe dream. That there is no way to take back powers and it’s one way traffic into a federal superstate.

    Quick get on facebook and find some racist Kippers, you’re going to need to try and discredit the party again.

    • John Byde

      British people to UK politicians: Repeat 100 times before bedtime: THERE IS NO NEGOTIATING WITH THE EU – LOVE IT, OR LEAVE IT!”

  • falcons1988

    Juncker has proved that there is no room for negotiation, we are either fully in or we are fully out.

    • HookesLaw

      We cannot be fully out. We have to live with the EU. Are you a car worker? Do you think car workers who benefit greatly from inward investment and the EU single market want to be fully out? We are not in the Euro so we cannot be fully ‘in’ and this is where negotiations will have to start.

      • Tony_E

        Every time you ask are commentators in the auto industry. But do you really think that we should he making huge decisions based on one industry?

        • southerner

          And they threatened to pack their bags if we didn’t join the Euro. Hey ho – we didn’t and they’re still here.
          Hooky is on the wrong side of every argument. Best just to humour him.

      • Wessex Man

        There you go with your lies again, we have debated this in great detail many times you liar six and half million European Jobs depend on Europe trading with us as you well know.

        The German, French, Spanish, Italian and Chech car manufacturers arn’t going to let the EU start a trade war with their biggest export market!

      • Conway

        Like the car workers of Ford who used to work at Eastleigh before the company moved to Turkey with the aid of an EU grant?

  • Chingford Man

    “(M)embers of Cameron’s circle are now contemplating that the renegotiation
    might not deliver enough substantive change for the UK to stay in.”

    Hear the echo of the dropping penny.

  • revkevblue

    Why did labour also not want Juncker as president?
    Because he will say it as it is, and that will make it harder for them to continue to blind side the electorate in this country with what the EU has in store for them in the Orwellian future, unless we vote UKIP that is.

  • Fred Smith

    It certainly makes it far harder for Cameron to pull a Wilson and sell nothing as a big deal.

    As for the fundamental reforms he’s been hinting at, they were never on the cards, as he’s been told consistently. As for the notion that this would all be cut and dried by the end of 2017 – plain silly.

  • misomiso

    He needs to come out and say clear as a day – an opt out of free movement. That will get UKIP votes behind him.

    He could also point out that in the EU’s new love of democracy, it currently takes 10 times as many MEPs to elect a British MEP compared to a Luxembourg one.

    • HookesLaw

      He has already said he wants changes to the free movement of labour and limits to so called ‘benefits tourism’. The existing rules can already be interpreted in this way. Free movement of labour for work is not a bad thing for our economy.

      • misomiso

        These arguments are incredibly dishonest and are attempts to muddy the issue on immigration by the pro-euros.

        We can have all the immigration we need IF we control our own borders! We can have all the immigration that the elected government of the day feels necessary. We can sign open borer arrangements with other countries, but we can also pull out of them if we want. We shouldnt be forced by european law to do things we do not want.

        The government of the day should decide immigration policy and it is undemocratic for past Parliaments to force us to live this legislation.

      • Lady Magdalene

        This is about Sovereignty.

        WE decide who comes and how many. That is incompatible with free movement, even if some of the incentives are watered down.

        We don’t need poor, unqualified, leeches from Eastern Europe.

      • Wessex Man

        go away you tiresome f***!

      • livnletliv

        May be YOUR economy.

    • Conway

      No, it wouldn’t – speaking for this UKIP supporter. I wouldn’t trust Dave any further than I could throw him with both hands tied behind my back and a muzzle on. Nor would I trust the EU not to say that we’d have an opt out and then claw it back when it was too late for us to do anything about it.

  • saffrin

    Well come on guys, who thought Cameron would do anything but make a fool of himself again?

    • monty61

      Indeed. We have been backed into a corner. We won’t get the essential reform now thanks to Cameron’s utter ineptitude, so are faced with the choice of leaving, or putting up.

      Given the prevailing mood and the amount of Eurosceptic disinfomation around the place, the safest bet for the country (god help us all) might be to vote Milliband and avoid a vote altogether.

      • Kitty MLB

        Utter rubbish, tell me what would Milipede have done,
        Cameron made it quite clear that the choice of that
        man would make reform within the EU impossible
        with Juncker apposed preferring less then the status
        quo and the renegotiations were never possible
        upon the EU chosing this deceitful little man
        who the people of the EU are against by the way
        and yet they still cowardly chose him.

        • robbydot

          Reform isn’t possible. The man in the chair makes no damn difference.

      • Wessex Man

        The reason your party is collapsing into itself`just like the Tories and the Liberal Democrats have is because the people of this country know we are not the guilty party that’s lying and smearing, that’s you and yours.

        Go on believing what you like, your party are going to suffer come the GE in 2015.

      • Conway

        We would never have got the essential reform anyway. If you don’t want to be in a USE then the only answer is to vote for UKIP, It’s madness to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

      • livnletliv

        Lol, you should give up the day job.

    • Kitty MLB

      Standing upto bullies is not making a fool of ones self.
      And what would you have done..Oh it doesn’t really
      matter now does It.

      • saffrin

        Cameron is playing up for the UKIP crowd.
        No one, not even he thought he would make a jot of difference.
        Had he meant what he said, he’d have invoked article 50 already.

        • Kitty MLB

          Oh dear, those EU elections and tv debates have really gone to the head..they were a vote
          against Cleggie. And honestly the leader of
          a legitimate party ( of which you are not, until
          you ever get a seat) and Prime Minister of
          the United Kingdom is far too busy running the
          country to play up to crowds of protesters,
          from verious groups who have no responsibility.

          • livnletliv

            Running which country?

        • livnletliv

          His spin told him he needed to be seen to get a bloody nose for us, (according to the Telegraph) because his spin thought he should make some kind of suggestion to continue robbing us for millions. And Cameron being an idiot thought he would go along with him.

  • Smithersjones2013

    So now Cameron’s dimwit cult have their ‘Eureka’ moment. Someone give them the prize for the most belated recognition of the bleedin’ obvious in this the century so far, idiots that they are.

    How many times do they need to be told? Merkel made it clear after this latest debacle that she does not see the UK leaving, she expects us to drag our feet but kicking and screaming eventually we will suffocate ourselves in the morass of ever closer union. That she completely fails to understand the contempt felt by many in this country for that whole maniacal despotic narcissistic vanity project or the cultural differences (a thousand years of perceived self-determination) that drives that contempt puts her in the same disconnected regions of deranged delusion as those in Downing Street still think that there is a deal to be done.

    The British people will never accept being part of a United States Of Europe and the European Union Oligarchs will never accept a dilution of their Ever Closer Union project. For Camerons village idiots to continue to try and reconcile these two opposing views is insanity. They need to decide which side they are on and given who keeps them in power they have little choice but to follow a roadmap to withdrawal from the EU. Not to do so will destroy the Tory Party.

    • Blindsideflanker

      We thought Cameron had got it on the leadership election, we thought Cameron had got it on Lisbon, in both cases it was clear he hadn’t. In light of his two failed attempts to show he has got it , would anybody lay a bet on Cameron that he has got it this time?

      From the evidence of his published renegotiating points people are in for a very bid disappointment.

      • Lady Magdalene

        The solution to the conundrum is to destroy LibLabCON: one Party at a time.

        The LibDems are on the floor. Let’s see if Call Me Dave would rather save the Conservative Party or be in the EU.

        • Conway

          I believe Dave would ditch the Conservatives (after all he isn’t in any way, shape or form conservative) to slurp at the top table in the EU.

    • helen campbell

      This is absolutely excellent. THANK YOU for putting it so well. Let’s all sleep easy in our beds tonight and not fret so much for rest assured, Britain will eventually come out of Europe (irrespective of the posturing and the prevaricating of Cameron et al). As for those poor sods over there across the Channel alas, they will go down together into that dark pit. Collectively and coming soon at a theatre near you do let’s all of us by all means watch unfolding in front of our eyes, the worst, the darkest period in the history of the European tribespeople -ever namely, the about to be United States of Europe! I predict a state in which its inhabitants will experience a wholesale loss of individual freedom and liberty.

  • Donafugata

    The Europeans don’t want us or like us, they just want our money.
    Should the prospect of getting out become a real possibility Merkel will do her utmost to prevent it. Germany, in particular, will feel the pinch.

    “Just when you think you’ve got out, they drag you back in again”

    • Rhoda Klapp8

      You can check out any time you like, you can never leave?

  • pobinr

    All the endless talk & debate!

    I work in science & I listen to Bach the distiller of the essence of musical craft.

    I therefore like to see things condensed down to their essence.

    Actually it’s all incredibly simple.

    Open borders & EU membership are OK if you like;

    1] Mass unemployment, austerity & democracy lost to ECB loan sharks in Med countries

    2] More & more control of our country given away to the emerging EU dictatorship

    3] Low population density E.European countries being further depopulated

    4] Cheap imported labour that drives wages down & take jobs from locals

    5] Classes full of kids that need special lessons in speaking basic English

    6] Being told it’s just Daily Mail fiction when we see it with our own eyes

    7] 28,000 or is it 5,000 Romanians I don’t care, held for crimes

    8] Higher house prices & rents due to increased demand

    9] More crowded surgeries & longer NHS queues

    10] Worst housing shortage since WWII

    11] More & more houses on greenbelt

    12] More & more road congestion

    13] Child grooming gangs

    14] People traffickers

    Why would anyone in their right mind want these things?

    I do not like any of these things so I vote UKIP.

    • DaveTheRave

      I concur. It’s all a stinking, rotten madness.

      • Peter Stroud

        I also concur, but voting UKIP will do nothing but register a protest, and perhaps, let Miliband into number 10.

        • Ricky Strong


          I think even the most ardent Labour supporter can see that Miliband and Balls is a recipe for disaster. I can see Conservatives and Labour on a rough par with UKIP holding the balance of power. If it is simply a protest vote then it is a very consistent protest vote.

        • Conway

          Not if enough people vote UKIP. Of course, if you keep trying to put people off voting for UKIP by scare-mongering, then you may indeed end up with what you fear. Better to tell them not to vote Tory so as not to split the UKIP vote and let Labour in.

        • pobinr

          No because Labour voters are waking up to the fact that Labour are Anti referendum, pro EU and pro immigration.
          Result = Mass immigration of cheap labour driving down wages, taking jobs, taking homes, making more traffic congestion and making slumlords & low wage payers richer.
          But that’s the opposite of Socialism isn’t it?
          Labour the party for seriously deluded people!

    • tolpuddle1

      Switzerland and USA are knee-deep in migrants. Switzerland and USA ain’t in the EU

      • John Byde

        24% of the Switz population is foreign or of foreign origin (just look at our football team), however the difference is is that WE THE PEOPLE control it, not the EUSSR or our lame politicians. A politician who behaved like Cameron over here wouldn’t last long!

        • robbydot

          If you control it why have you let so many in?

  • JoshuaCzajkowski

    It’s not like we’ve never tried, we’ve been trying to renegotiate since we joined, has it ever worked? The UK is now one of the fastest growing developed economies on the planet and is likely to become the 5th largest economy when it over-takes France in the next year or so. We can get what ever deal we want if we genuinely threaten to leave and put it up for a referendum. Do you really think European industry would let their governments harm their largest trading partner on the planet?

    • goatmince

      How many errors can one commit in one post, this must be deliberate.

      1- RPI inflation (are you still measuring it?) unequals ‘growth’.
      2- ‘We’ can threaten to leave? ‘We’ can put it up for a referendum? Why aren’t ‘we’ then, if it was that simple?
      3- ‘Largest trading partner on the planet’ – these are surely the US, China and Russia. How would that balance shift on a Brexit? Would we beat the US and rake up an even higher de facto trade loss?

      • Smithersjones2013

        Whilst i disagree with Joshua that there is a deal still to be done whilst remaining members(there isn’t) it is you who seem to be competing for the most errors in a post.

        Point 1 is not even coherent English

        Point 2 because the Libdems whose support has collapsed are blocking a referendum. They have no mandate to stop a referendum but they are blocking it anyway.

        Point 3 On current figures if we withdrew from the EU we would become their largest external export market. We take an enormous amount of EU goods into this country (proximity makes it very easy to do business). More than the US Japan or China or any other country. We are after all the 6th largest economy in the world and France and Germany are two of those above us.

        • goatmince

          1- You don’t know what RPI inflation is? Dear oh dear. You don’t understand that is does not equal growth? Dear me.
          How much more financial illiteracy must we take from you kind?
          2- then dissolve Parliament now if they do not have a mandate. How much more democratic illiteracy must we take from your kind?
          3- we would most emphatically not become that. That is the point. All financial services related to EU business would disappear in an instant. What would our trade losses be then? See point one for my closing line.

          • JoshuaCzajkowski

            Of course we know what RPI inflation is and CPI too. I don’t know if you’re a troll, someone who’s first language isn’t English or just an idiot…

            • goatmince

              Boy, now you are pushing it.
              RPI inflation isn’t growth awright?
              Get your facts right.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …get your sockpuppets right, you authoritarian socialist whackjob.

                • goatmince

                  Oh, getting abusive again, you OAP part-time loon? You need to get out of bed earlier if you wanted to be part of a discussion, Ranger Rick.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …is that the consensus of your sockpuppet army, lad?

                • goatmince

                  … that you need to get out of bed earlier?
                  Any of the Teletubbies will be happy to confirm that.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …now, do you and your sockpuppet army support the full fascist agenda, or are you still just sticking with the Levesonista level fascism for now, lad?

            • Inverted Meniscus

              Just a gibberish spouting idiot and a socialist nutter.

            • Wessex Man

              yes I think he is a troll, a very ill educated pompous halfwitted one at that.

          • Smithersjones2013

            1. Clearly you do not know how to write in coherent sentences and I am passed wasting my time trying to interpret the ramblings of illiterates (and arrogant condescending ones to boot)

            2. I agree but given the way our perverse democratic system works there is nothing that can be done unless Cameron decides to commit political suicide and whilst the man is an idiot I do not expect him to cut his own throat before he has to. There are times when one has to acknowledge realpolitik.

            3. Well if you want to make up scenarios to suit your argument then of course you can make your worldview sound coherent. There are massive costs to the sort of upheaval you are talking about and business will not take on such costs unless they are forced to. There is no reason to believe such extreme conditions will result from our withdrawal. It does not work in anyone’s interests.

            As for my ‘final line’ there is little point debating with tin foil hat wearing paranoid doom-mongers who think the world will end if we leave their beloved cult because they lack the intellect to see beyond their deranged little world.

            On the way out you’ll need to straighten your shiny hat. All that frothing has made it slip a little…….

            • goatmince

              1- So for a third time you will not understand that raising hard asset prices which is inelastic inflation does not constitute growth? Dear oh dear.
              2- ah, so you backpedal now, the true democrat that you are?
              3- ah, so you accept that leaving the EU would in fact result in massive onesided losses on our part (City losses), yet the imports will still magically keep pouring in? Can ‘we’ afford that?

            • Inverted Meniscus

              Don’t worry another one of his ridiculous sock puppets: Dalai Guavara, you Kid, dado trunking, barking at tree huggers etc etc will be along shortly to provide you with another dose of incoherent gibberish and socialist nuttery.

      • JoshuaCzajkowski

        ‘We’ aren’t threatening to leave because many of our politicians don’t want to…it isn’t that hard to understand is it.
        Also the UK is the Eurozones largest trading partner on the planet. They sell more to the UK than they do to the US and China combined. The UK also recently overtook France and the US to become Germany’s single largest trading partner. Do the research yourself.

        • goatmince

          ‘the UK recently overtook France and the US to become Germany’s single largest trading partner.’

          that means we are importing like never before. As I stated before – financial illiteracy is widespread.

          • Wessex Man

            no it’s slammed to a stop when it reached you.

    • Smithersjones2013

      Whilst our economic status gives us considerable power it does not give us the power to overrule the desires of the members of the EU (collectively the largest economy in the world) to see their infernal project completed unsullied. There is no logical or emotional reason of note to agree to the UK’s demands if your an EU Integrationist. The logical conclusion for them is to let us leave and do a trade deal which everybody is reasonably content with.

      • Conway

        One can but hope, but I don’t think the EU will give in gracefully. They don’t like us and our Anglo Saxon attitudes, but they do like our money.

  • RavenRandom

    Enough of the EU wants a federalist superstate, we want a free market. As I’ve said before, nothing wrong with either stance. We should get what we want by leaving and as a bonus govern our own country and control our own borders.

    • Kitty MLB

      Well clearly as the people of the EU are clearly turning Right
      there cowardly leaders have chosen the worse possible
      person they could chose, regardless of telling Cameron
      privately how wrong they knew Juncker was.
      Well Cameron was right to stick by his unpopular guns
      let the EU reep what they we move closer to the
      exit doors, they move closer to self destruction.

      • Conway

        I’m with Bomber Harris on this one; they have sown the tempest, let them now reap the whirlwind (and yes, I know his quotation wasn’t original).

  • @PhilKean1


    What makes pro-Federal Prime Ministers think they can perform this disingenuous juggling act –

    – and prevent it imploding before General Elections?

    “Plan Cuckoo” – Cameron’s strategy to get “Eurosceptic” MPs to unwittingly provide the means by which he can keep Britain in the EU under all conditions – was as guaranteed to unravel as another of his disastrous policy choices: promising to stick to Labour’s spending plans.

    In fact, there couldn’t be a more fitting parallel. Had he made the RIGHT choice in 2005, attacking Labour’s economic policy instead of copying it – he would have had credibility at the 2010 election and almost certainly gone on to win a majority.
    So, too, have many of us been arguing that he could have united the Tory party and the country behind a strategy of taking Britain OUT of the EU that would have won him a resounding majority in 2015.

    But why didn’t he? This is a tricky one.

    (1) – Is he so committed to Britain’s continued membership and full participation in economic and political union that he would rather lose the 2015 election than take Britain out of the EU?

    (2) – Would it be fair to speculate that, surely a man who didn’t have the intellectual capacity to know it was wrong to pledge to stick to Labour’s spending plans – might ALSO not have the necessary means to understand that there was no possibility of Britain staying in the EU under their no exceptions plan for economic and political union?

    (3) – Staying as PM, preferably in a Coalition with the Liberals, is the ONLY thing that really matters to him? Which could explain why his strategy, or – more like – strategies, have lacked coherence, credibility and direction?

    For example. Cameron has spent 4 years letting the inhabitants of our solar system know there is no possibility that he’d ever take Britain out of the EU.
    Then, after his fellow EU leaders take him at his word and disregard his concerns after his many reassurances of his commitment to the EU, Cameron hopes they will take him seriously when he hints that he may have to take Britain out if they elect Juncker.

    Take your pick. It is surely one or a combination of the above. However, the flaw that screams out at me is a complete lack of mental maturity.


    • Wessex Man

      Good grief!

      I reasoned in reply why I think that Cameron’s problems is none of the above now has ‘Hold on, this is waiting to be approved by Spectator Blogs, you couldn’t make it up.

      • Colonel Mustard

        It will probably be because of some word or partial word you have used. The moderation is American and some words or even partial words that are slang there but not here or vice versa get rejected. For example you can’t use the phrase “t*t for tat”. You can try identifying it by a process of elimination but it really is a PITA when words used in the main blog article are moderated in comments.

        • Wessex Man

          Thank you Colonel, I still think that Cameron is a W*****!

    • Tony_E

      I think you discount the prevailing wind at the time – in 2005 Gordon Brown was hubristically declaring and ‘end to boom and bust’ and the British media had bought into the idea that he was some kind of economic genius.

      To go against the prevailing wind would have meant a continual mauling by the BBC – but by sticking to Brown’s spending the Economy became a non issue for several years. allowing other areas to be the focus where they did make some progress.

      Now with hindsight that may have been wrong, but it was political strategy, no more, no less.

      I also think it’s very presumptive to think that staying in coalition with the Liberals is his main concern – he wasn’t elected with a majority and he isn’t likely to get one – but to look at it from the other side, would you prefer a Lib/Lab coalition? It’s the art of the possible.

      • @PhilKean1

        Sorry, but that isn’t even an argument. What happened to doing what is right and standing by your beliefs?

        • The_Missing_Think

          Re-read it, he resigned from the Tories because they were ‘doing what was right wrong and standing by your Labour‘s beliefs’.

      • Blindsideflanker

        There was a Labour prevailing wind because the Cameron Conservatives had thrown in the towel on the economy. They offered no resistance, they didn’t challenge Brown on his profligacy, in fact said that the economic argument was dead, and the 2010 election would be fought on social issues. I resigned my membership of the Conservative party in 2007 because I was so disgusted at their ‘sharing the proceeds policy’ . I believe there was sufficient evidence around to show that things were turning bad, and people know there was something rotten in the economic house of cards Brown had put together. All it required was someone with principle to show it up. Unfortunately the Conservatives had a couple of chancers running the party.

  • goatmince

    Let us not despair – the people will not forget how totalitarian, tyrannical and outright fascist the EU really is. In fact, people are now so scared of the EU and what it stands for, they no longer dare to set foot onto the continent. Our great leader Farage is of course above all that – he makes that journey past Cerberus every week. How he does it remains a tale to tell your children.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      …yes, let us not despair, your sockpuppet army promotes fascism at every turn, as ever.

    • girondas2

      What a strange and squalid little post.
      I am not scared of venturing onto the continent, yet I am opposed to membership of the European Union. I wonder how this could be so.

      Perhaps Tony Benn put it best:
      “My view of the EU has always been not that I am hostile to foreigners
      but I am in favour of democracy,”
      “When I saw how the European Union was developing, it was very
      obvious what they had in mind was not democratic. In Britain, you vote
      for a government so the government has to listen to you, and if you
      don’t like it you can change it.”

      Maybe the distinction that Benn made is too subtle for you