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Will Labour and the Conservatives finally discuss the concerns Ukip has raised?

26 May 2014

11:50 AM

26 May 2014

11:50 AM

Ukip have come top of the polls for the UK in the EU elections. Now which of the two following scenarios might we most likely expect from the other parties?

Might the Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties, along with their amazingly loyal chorus-line in the British media, wake up sincerely believing that a ‘racist’ political party is now the biggest UK party in the EU? Do you think they will escalate a war against that party and the public who voted for them, such as would only be appropriate from anyone who actually believed that this country was now dominated and — in Brussels at least — led by ‘racists’.

Or is it possible that in the coming days Conservative and Labour leaders (and Lib Dem ones — if anyone can find any) will have to talk about some of the concerns Ukip has legitimately raised? Might they begin to talk about trying to fix our immigration problems and other issues that seem so insurmountable as long as we are members of an unreformed EU? And if this is the case might we, the British public, come to the conclusion that these parties and their loyal hacks never did actually believe that Ukip were ‘racist’, but merely kept saying so in the dishonest and vain hope that they would succeed in scaring the British people from what turn out to be mainstream and popular concerns?

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Show comments
  • http://semipartisansam.com/ SemiPartisanSam

    Don’t expect any serious discussion of the various important issues that UKIP raised – immigration, loss of sovereignty, impediments to economic growth – because you won’t get it. What you will get, what we always get, is a lot of patronising “analysis” of what goes on in the mind of a UKIP voter, and what the establishment parties can do to make them “see sense” and return to the fold:

    http://semipartisansam.com/2014/05/24/how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-nigel-farage/

    Trouble is, this time the polls show that many of the voters have no interest in returning to the ‘legacy’ political parties. They were not protest votes as such, because they were not lost by the Tories, Labour or the Lib Dems – they were actively won by UKIP.

    Winning back those voters means adopting the UKIP policies and language (or rather lack of political sheen and PR), which for various reasons the main parties are not willing to do.

  • dave244

    No matter how much they listen to the electorate they still have the
    problem of understanding what they are being told they think in the
    terms of party policies what they don’t understand is what electorate
    want above all else is honesty and as soon as we start to hear things
    like “we need to educate people” you know they automatically class the
    rest of us as idiots who need to be treated like children

  • Bill_der_Berg

    Ed Miliband has not been totally silent about the negative effects of immigration. He acknowledged that concern about immigration was genuine and was not down to bigotry. He also said that Labour had been wrong to ignore those concerns and he put this down to the Party being ‘dazzled by globalization’. He believed that the answer to those concerns was to ‘change the way our economy works’. (That was in a speech to the Institute for Public Policy Research in June 2012).

    More recently, he vowed to end the UK’s dependence on cheap foreign labour. (A strange thing to say, given that downward pressure on wages is one of the attractions of immigration to the pro-immigrationists).

    To my mind, the most interesting bit is the reminder that the Labour Party is a party of globalization, as are the Conservatives and Lib Dems. That being so, we cannot expect NuLab to make significant changes to their present policies, whatever they say to the contrary.

  • chris_xxxx

    As long as the UK is a member of the EU, there is nothing that can be done about the problem of immigration from the EU, including the low skilled and low educated who would have been refused entry if we had control of our borders.

    Freedom of movement for EU citizens is a fundamental right, which is written into the treaties. To remove it, requires 27 countries to agree, and there is very little chance of the East European countries agreeing to it.

    Experts on the EU, including Barosso and Hollande have said there is no chance of renegotiating treaties by 2017, if at all.

  • Kennybhoy

    Douglas Murray wrote:

    “And if this is the case might we, the British public, come to the conclusion that these parties and their loyal hacks never did actually believe that Ukip were ‘racist’, but merely kept saying so in the dishonest and vain hope that they would succeed in scaring the British people from what turn out to be mainstream and popular concerns?”

    Those “loyal hacks” included your boss and most of yer colleagues hereabouts Maister M!

    • James Lovelace

      The behaviour of the “liberal” elite show that they have never been interested in combating racism.

      Non-white people in Britain are (proportionately) responsible for far more racist violence than are white people. Yet the “liberal” elite ignore this.

      Combating racism and accusing people of being “racist” has only ever been a tool. The same thing applies to the slave trade. They are totally silent about the millions of black Africans enslaved by muslims in Mauritania and Sudan.

  • Agrippina

    Well I have just checked and the results are still not available for Tower Hamlets, that is prob why folks want to reform immigration. We resemble a 3rd world dump by letting folks behave in such an undemocratic manner and inability to conduct a count in a fair, reasonable and timely fashion.

    UKIP for reform.

  • Conway

    My money would be on the first scenario – they believe we have got it wrong and need to be re-educated.

  • Media Darling

    I agree with Salmond that UKiP was relentlessly beamed into UK politics by the BBC. Common Douglas, it’s so obvious!

    Despite of huge financial support from various donors (payback time), this party with distinctly 1930’s eugenics ideology, still managed to secure only as little as 10% of the nationwide support. That’s right. Only 34% of people wanted to play this dirty UKiP game.

    • Bill_der_Berg

      If Labour had half as much in donations from UKIP, they would have won every seat and had enough left over to mount another invasion of Iraq.

    • chris_xxxx

      And what ‘dirty little game’ is this? You fail to mention the onslaught of anti-UKIP articles in the main stream media for the past couple of months.

      • Media Darling

        Anti-UKiP articles? That is called crisis management.

        • chris_xxxx

          You didn’t answer the question.

    • Bill_der_Berg

      ‘Distinctly 1930’s eugenics ideology’? Are you sure?

    • James Lovelace

      “this party with distinctly 1930’s eugenics ideology”

      The 1930s enthusiasm for eugenics was found with socialists: the Fabians and the National Socialists.

      http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2010/12/british-eugenics-disabled

      The Left are nothing but liars and hypocrites and fascists.

  • Bill_der_Berg

    No doubt the accusations of weirdness will be heard but, as Dominic Lawson has pointed out, it’s the ones who pretend to be normal who can be the most dangerous.

    “In reality, Blair was anything but a normal bloke: his messianic tendencies were something that Dr David Owen (both a politician and an author of psychological papers) described as bordering on personality disorder. This was sensed acutely by that doctor of spin, Alastair Campbell, who devoted much of his work to hiding this aspect of Blair’s character .”

  • Michael990

    They can’t control immigration whilst we remain members of the EU. Open borders are one of its most fundamental principles. If they tried to introduce meaningful control, as opposed to mere window dressing, the human rights brigade would leap into action to throw it out.

  • Lady Magdalene

    LibLabCON can’t possibly start to discuss immigration; welfare controls for immigrants; the number of immigrants from the EU who are currently languishing in our jails; the volume of immigrant crime; housing overcrowding amongst Eastern European migrants; the impact a classroom full of non-English speaking immigrants has on British childrens’ education etc etc
    Because, according to them, that would be RACIST. And only nasty, plain-speaking UKIP are racists.

    • James Lovelace

      Exactly. The LibLabCon oligarchy and the presstitutes have enforced political correctness. Which means they can never explicitly address the issues which are driving people towards UKIP.

      We are in a proxy war. The success of UKIP is a product of the fascistic policies of the LibLabCon cartel.

  • Bill_der_Berg

    It is just possible that three main parties will be unable to avoid the concerns raised by UKIP. They will be keeping their eyes on the opinion polls. Much depends on whether the media keep gnawing away at the issues, like dogs with a bone.

  • Simon Fay

    There will be earnest remarks about the need for some sort of public debate, in much the same way firemen long-windedly discuss rescuing you whilst the flames enclose you, cutting off your rescue path. Kirsty Wark will be re-energised and seem distinctly more combative. James Naughtie will remark upon what an extraordinary few days it has been for the proliferation of subordinate clauses and his habit of answering his own questions.
    Etc. etc. etc.
    Too little, too late.

  • glurk

    Judging by the burbling response I got from the local UKIP candidate when asked a very simple question, ie: ‘And how will you achieve all these very creditable ambitions?’ UKIP havent discussed them either, let alone answer them.

    • Penny

      The run-up to a Euro election isn’t generally the time for political parties to expound domestic policies in anything but broad terms.

      Candidates are just local people hoping to be elected to serve their communities and, while knowing the policies of their party, are pretty unlikely to be privy to the finer economic details and strategies behind them. I honestly doubt that you’d get detailed responses about policies from ConLabLib candidates.

      • glurk

        Im aware of that. I was interested in what he was going to do about anything locally, except witter platitudes of the ‘when did you stop beating your wife’ ilk. I want a party to vote for, either in local or national government who’s policies and intended actions will make it worth the walk to the polling booth.

        • Bill_der_Berg

          My councillor, a Labour man, was absolutely hopeless. So was the Labour MP, but he did not last long.

        • Penny

          Having been a local councillor myself, standing in three elections, I have (obviously!) been a “candidate” three times. The last two were pretty easy in that I knew how councils operated and so I could talk in some depth about the issues. This is not the case for someone standing for the first time. Even if they are an active member of the community there is a great deal they will not know – simply because they are not yet privy to the swathes of information and prior discussions pertaining to each issue.

          In a broad sense this must have been true for Cameron and is inner circle in the lead-up to the 2010 GE. It was only after having won that they really understood how bad – economically – things really were.

          • glurk

            I dont vote for candidates out of soppy sympathy for them you know!

            • Penny

              I wasn’t suggesting you would or should. Realism is the point I was trying to make and it applies in every job. I don’t know many people who turn up to their first day of a new job with a comprehensive and experienced knowledge of the company and its employers.

              Any candidate you choose to vote for will, if s/he is a first-timer, present you with this same problem. It is really not going to be unique to UKIP.

              • glurk

                More fool me then for being continually hopeful.

                • Penny

                  It’s not a matter of being hopeful: it’s about being realistic. Not only because a new candidate is stepping into a different and unfamiliar job, but also because every issue really does come with those swathes of discussion and information I mentioned above that they’ve simply not seen – or may even know exists. It’s extremely difficult for an incumbent party to send new candidates on to the doorstep, fully briefed (they generally go with seasoned campaigners), but it’s downright impossible if your party has no representation on that council in the first place.

                • glurk

                  Your’e trying to persuade me that candidates are picked in bud, fresh and green out of the garden. Now pull the other one. Occasionally perhaps, local councils will throw an innocent fellow to be torn to pieces by the public for reasons of their own.
                  In my experience of local government, with rare exceptions, candidateship is basically jobs for the boys and for the professional committee sitters who are have a stranglehold on local government. You’re making it sound as if well reasoned argument, good intentions and a listening ear are what makes a good candidate, accompanied by a willingness to learn. Ive met one and one only local politician with these attributes. And kissed many many miserable old trouts in the process. Im beyond disillusion and no amount of justifying the cr@p local councillors spout will change my mind now

                • Penny

                  You really don’t have any idea how local candidates are selected. I do. Your experience is limited to your own area. Mine isn’t. I belonged to one of the three main parties so why you should think I’m “trying to persuade” or attempting to pull anything on you is beyond me. I’m simply telling you the facts.

                  The councils I’ve experienced are parish, town, district, county and unitary. I have not come across a single councillor of the “professional committee sitter” that you describe. They may become that way once they are councillors because sitting on committees directly or indirectly linked to the council is part of the job – for some. But, speaking for myself, I have not come across any who got into the job via the reverse direction.

                • glurk

                  You are more than likely right on all counts and in your experience, However, I can promise you that certainly here, in all parties, in the absence of new blood, this is exactly what happens. No-one else will get involved because discussions in chamber and decisions made are largely done on what seems to be a private basis and certainly do not reflect peoples wishes who live locally. People not only dont vote because they feel its worthless but they wont challenge the status quo either. Im certainly and innocent abroad here, despite my close friendship with some local councillors, one of whom is intending to democratise the process or die in the attempt, I know very well, having sat in more than one committee myself, that decisions in all depts are frequently made by the ill-informed and those with their own personal axes to grind and through factioning behaviour and outside pressure.
                  If Im stupid and ill informed for expecting better from an elected body, so be it.

                • Penny

                  No – I don’t think you’re stupid and ill-informed. One of the problems for all parties is recruiting decent candidates. So few people want to do the job. And I would agree that not only are there some with axes to grind, but a few who are in it for the wrong reasons – ego being the most frequent I’ve encountered. But more often than not, local councillors are ordinary people who are often not even politically motivated, but just want to help.

                  The frustration for quite a few is that, until they crash headlong into the system, they’ve no idea that helping can be extremely difficult and frustrating. It’s not that the system is necessarily wrong – it just comes with so many other institutions (e.g. police, social workers etc), so many rules (all necessary) and so many delays. I was a really hard-working councillor but time and again I’d encounter people who – because they were outside of the system – didn’t understand that getting a result is not always possible and even when it is, it can take time.

                  There are lots of issues about this subject that I could probably write a book because it’s not until your on the inside of it that you realise how little you knew beforehand – which of course leads to the obvious conclusion that few are going to understand your difficulties as a councillor!

                  Anyhow! Why don’t you consider standing for election yourself? For all I’ve said about the negatives, it is an interesting job.

                • glurk

                  I have thought of it in vague and disturbed dream, Im aware that a desire to help is often more imoportant but Im not cut out for it. Too little patience, a strong desire to bang heads together with the sheer distrust of motive and deep frustration with it after years in work. I watched one councillor friend struggle to help his community most of his life. He had massive support until recently, when he went to the County Council with strong support of the electing public but was still unable to achieve a great deal except , like you, a large knowledge of wheels within wheels. All I want from a local councillor is less chatter of the type I can hear in the pub and more ideas about committment and solutions. Sadly, the only person who provided any practical help with a simple problem which the local councils should have been able to sort out was our long-since disgraced Tory MP!

    • Wessex Man

      perhaps he /she just thought what a strange bloke, I have to get away from him!

      • glurk

        More than likely… just a shame I wanted to vote for his party really wasnt it!

        • James Lovelace

          Clearly they didn’t need your vote to win.

          So go back to voting for one of the faces of the LibLabCon cartel. They will give you what they didn’t promise (e.g. gay marriage). They will not give you what they did promise (referendum).

          • glurk

            I think I’ll stick to game shows. At least when they take you for a prat you stand a chance of getting something out of it!

  • pinkgunnergirl

    The internal migration problem in the EU is NOT caused by the free movement of people rule but by the EU enlargement policy. When the EU consisted of Western & Southern Europe, migration was balanced. It’s the enlargement to the hundreds of millions in the East that has pushed democratic consent for the EU in Western Europe to its limits and resulted in a vast migration from east to west. And who is the biggest supporter of EU Enlargement, who has pushed it more than anyone? The TORY party and their big business allies.

  • The Laughing Cavalier

    Will Labour and the Conservatives finally discuss the concerns Ukip has raised?

    No.

    • politikalme

      don’t be so defeatist!
      of course they will discuss them, and discuss them, and discuss them…
      what’s that? “do anything about them?”don’t be silly! 🙂

    • Alexandrovich

      Look, let me be quite clear, as I say, we are listening and must take on board the lessons learned. The British people are obviously concerned about something or the other and, once we find an effective way of appearing concerned also, we must revert to ignoring the overwhelming majority in order to implement the next stage of control.

      • James Lovelace

        “let me be quite clear, as I say, we are listening and must take on board the lessons learned.”

        If you were listening, you’d have made changes 15 years ago. We’re beyond caring if you are listening. We want to destroy LibLabCon.

  • Denis_Cooper

    “as long as we are members of an unreformed EU”

    You forget that the EU has already been reformed; surely you will recall Merkel doing that with her Reform Treaty, later renamed the Lisbon Treaty?

    • Conway

      Reform will only go one way – ever closer union.

  • Terry Field

    I predict Chuck’em de munee will be labour leader inside six months

  • dalai guevara

    What are these concerns, Douglas?
    Nations that are doing well do not vote for extremist far-right (or left for that matter) parties, countries which aren’t doing well are. How would you describe what is going on in France? How do you believe the international press is describing what is going on in Britain?

    • Colonel Mustard

      If you think UKIP is an “extremist far-right” party you are barmier than your comments suggest. That just shows how much the political landscape has been distorted by the real far left who have slithered here, there and everywhere.

      Who cares how the press describes anything. They are part and parcel of the problem not the solution.

      • Tom

        Usual BS today from the guardianista , I don’t think there’s a sane one amongst them.

      • James Lovelace

        Anyone to the right of Stalin is described as “fascist” and “far right”.

        Those describing UKIP as “far right” are aligned with Stalin, the genocidal murderer who inspired Hitler.

      • dalai guevara

        Have I suggested that, Colonel? When?
        What I have suggested however, in plain language, is for you to READ what it is that the international press reports about the situation we find ourselves in in Britain. Will you do that, can you do that even? It does not matter what UKIP is, what matters is what UKIP is perceived to be, internationally – simply because they are only present on the international stage. I trust you will get my point.

        • Colonel Mustard

          Garbage. Only you could argue something as ridiculously tenuous and convoluted as the true nature of British politics being determined only by how they are being reported in the foreign press, coupled with the usual attempt at a smug leftist put down.

          The connection between your second and last sentences in your first comment is apparent even if it is couched in far from plain language. You might instead have just quoted the foreign press concerned to make your point but instead you have to indulge in that ego-massaging guile that you know more about what is going on than anyone else and then wrap it up in the usual arcane and impenetrable guff.

          If smug and opinionated lefties commenting on blogs were a form of renewable energy the world would never have to worry about sustainable resources again. The relentless and apparently limitless expulsion of hot air across the whole blogosphere would meet all our heating needs.

  • DavidL

    The establishment parties are certainly going to need to up their game. One thing the last few months has shown is that the old “media training” game of answering the question you would like to have been asked, and using waffle to take the edges off everything you say no longer works. Mavericks, be it Boris, Farage or Mme LePen, cut through that like sharp secateurs, and the public has learnt to ignore it. So the establishment politicians need to mean what they say, and say what they mean. And if, in order to appear normal, they need lessons in how to eat a bacon sandwich, they need to “consider their position”, as they would put it.

    • Tom

      I share your concern,I hear what you’re saying, I’m as frustrated as you all this BS drives me nuts, peas in a pod and all rotten.

  • Grey Wolf

    I don’t expect Lab-Con-Lib to change at all. In fact, their lickspittle media managers will be told to dig up more dirt on UKIP.

    • Wessex Man

      only after they’ve tried the same thing against The SNP and the Yes Campaign, the little charmers.

  • Lucy Sky Diamonds

    HS2. Planning. Immigration. EU. Countryside. Urban sprawl. Everything that threatens England being England.

    We dont want them ‘talking’ about it. WE WANT THEM TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

    We want RESULTS.

    We want ACTION.

    We want you to DELIVER WHAT YOU BLOODY WELL PROMISE.

  • Lucy Sky Diamonds

    Nope. They wont touch free movement (which is what people want to end)

  • styants64

    Courtesy of the three lying Nation Wreckers Lib,Lab,Con Merchants, Britain has two and a half million out of work many who have jobs are low paid, houses prices out the reach for most young first time buyers, a high crime rate in our towns and cities, roads hospitals and schools overloaded and struggling to cope at times, a big trade in goods deficit and a massive debt of over a trillion pounds to pay substantial interest on probably forever, also a forecast of the population growth to 73,000,000 by 2020, and still millions of sheep like vote for them and it.

  • EHGombrich

    Ukip should start demanding more direct-democratic rights like in Switzerland where the conservative populace ist the absolute sovereign. That´s the only way you can check the leftist and globalist elites in every country.
    Next time there might not be a Nigel Farage who will single-handeldly save the British democracy. Therefore, Britain needs more of a semi-direct democracy like the Swiss.

    • Rhoda Klapp8

      The Swiss voted to end free movement. Their government cannot deliver, they don’t want to and they can’t get out of their deal with the EU on a piecemeal basis.

    • James Lovelace

      You are right. If UKIP fail, then it will be the end of democracy in Britain. By 2040, the muslim population of the UK will be 40% (for the past 50 years, the muslim population has doubled every decade).

      There is only a window of about 10 years in which we can save democracy. If we don’t then we face the UK (and many European countries) sharing the fate of Lebanon (which used to be described as “the Switzerland of the middle east”.)

      • EHGombrich

        You are probably right. As I am somewhat pessimistic, I fear that what we are witnessing all across Europe (especially in France) right now could just be the last attempt of an uprising of a desperate populace that knows that demographically something is going horribly wrong and that the future will be very grim.

  • Smithersjones2013

    Well from seeing people this morning ‘Chuckie’ (Umanna) was too busy doing his elitist clone impression and Miliband looked as if he had a bad case of indigestion (he had this weird smile as if he’d just done one of those putrid wet farts that makes everyone around suffer and he thought it funny but knew he couldn’t roll around laughing) .

    Cameron looked serious in a very postured manner and did his best to say nothing much at all. Given labour trials and the libdems tribulations he’s cearly decided the less attention that is brought upon UKIPs inroads into the Tories heartlands the better.That brings us to Wet Willy Eunuch (Hague) who lived up to his nickname and was as sterile and impotent as ever trotting out the same old drivel in that brain numbingly irritating nasal drone.

    As for Nick Clegg he’s doing a pimpernel. If he does not appear in a few hours expect Libdems to start a petition for search parties to be sent out to locate him. Meanwhile his party are absurdly trying to justify why their Turkey of a ;eader voted for Christmas and failing abysmally……

    All in all I think those who voted UKIP will be proved right in their support for that party because all the urban elitist establishment parties intend is lip service……

  • RavenRandom

    Nah, nearly every Labour politician misses the point; they trot out the “hard-working families cost of living crisis” robot speak and then lie by saying “we’re listening”, but secretly think, it doesn’t matter anyway as we’ll win because of the split right and dodgy boundaries.

    • Conway

      I suspect they may be in for a shock if they are expecting to win by default. If the “right” has any sense, they will vote UKIP to keep Labour out. A vote for Dave is a vote for carrying on Labour’s policies.

  • @PhilKean1

    .
    No chance. Their determination to remain in the EU under all conditions –

    – has united them behind a single very arrogant tactic : a refusal to acknowledge that the EU is the main problem and a strategy of trying to convince the pubic that they are supporting UKIP for other reasons.
    .

    • Blindsideflanker

      To be kind to them, they have managed to get themselves caught in the dilemma of having locked away so much of our sovereignty in the EU, they can no longer reflect the electorate’s concerns , but neither can they comprehend what needs to be done, that of getting out of the EU.

  • Blindsideflanker

    “will have to talk about some of the concerns Ukip has legitimately raised?”

    Yeah talk about it is all they are going to do , and if they are lucky, which is quite possible with the BBC, get to talk about immigration in an ineffectual anodyne way.

    The crisis our political classes have created is that having become custodians of EU treaties, and no longer representatives of the people, they can not reflect the concerns of peoples. As such, even if they manage to assuage peoples concerns with a slippery use of the English language this time, the problems that got people angry remain, and it will just come back and take a bigger bite out of them next time.

    Unfortunately for them it seems the deceit, lies, and spin have run their course, and though Cameron is attempting to deflect peoples immigration concerns onto benefit tourism, it would appear the people are having none of it.

  • Makroon

    Pretty stupid blog-post. The debate on immigration has been going on for a couple of years now, Murray must have his head stuffed into his nether regions.
    UKIP has already had a big influence, particularly on the Conservative party, but the influence is two-way – Farage has made strenuous efforts to disown the racist nutters who have tried to infiltrate UKIP, has strongly rejected an alliance with the National Front in France, and has actively sought ethnic minority candidates.
    Farage wants out of the EU, whatever the “reforms”, a position which polls tell us is still a minority view – most want to wait and see what concessions we can get. And Farage wants a strict immigration ‘points system’, which Labour and the Conservatives also say they now support.

    • allymax bruce

      Yes, and that means UKIP will not be taking UK/rUK out of the EU.
      That’s why i say, why hasn’t anyone been asking the obvious question; ‘why would an anti-EU UKIP want to be elected into the very institution they want nothing to do with?’

      • Makroon

        The obvious answer is that the Euro elections are considered pretty irellevant by most of the electorate, and therefore a relatively soft target, and they are decided by PR, which allows UKIP to build a profile and have it’s voice heard. Even in Scotland it seems.

        • allymax bruce

          Ok, Makroon, thanks for your developed argument.
          By the time UKIP are Established as the Third Party, the EU will have been ‘renegotiated’, with terms & conditions that will suit the overly centre-right Establishment bias, (Conservatives & UKIP); of which, erodes the lefty Labour ‘progressive’ ideals. Not a bad thing if you ask me, but, I’m still absolutely right about my argument; UKIP are conning people by telling them they will take UK/rUK out of the EU. Not going to happen.
          As for Scotland; having UKIP as the elephant in the room, plays perfectly into the ‘Yes’ campaign’s hands 🙂

          • Makroon

            I see the Scottish results as a small beacon of hope that the moderate right, pragmatic, pro-business, segment of the electorate is not quite dead and buried yet.
            It might persuade the NATS to stop flirting with a move to face left-corporate.

        • Wessex Man

          and then if you can please explain the vile campaign mounted against UKip by the sadly depleted ‘national’ parties!

    • disqus_KdiRmsUO4U

      quote: the debate on immigration has been going on for a couple of years now.

      OMG you must have been stuck in a revolving door in Labour or Con party headquarters.
      The objections to immigration have been steadily raising in tone for at least 20 years.
      Very little debate occurred because attempts to do so were and still are met with shouts of racist/xenophobe.

      Remaining in the EU as currently constituted is impossible if reducing mass immigration is the aim.
      The two just don’t go together.

      wrt to a points quota this is presumably to cover so called skilled immigrants but in truth is probably a cover to let in more financial spivs.
      As increases in educational expenditure have occurred the employemnt.for technicians engineers and scientists has reduced.

      How many managers can we carry.
      How many Uni’s churning out say grads in English Lit can we afford.

      • Makroon

        Are you Owen Jones ?

      • James Lovelace

        “The objections to immigration have been steadily raising in tone for at least 20 years. Where were you when the UAF were beating up the sensitive EDL types ?”

        Yep. Opposition to immigration has been among the top 3 issues for the electorate at every general election for at least 30 years. But we don’t live in a democracy, we live in an oligarchy.

        A few years ago I was BCC’d on emails between some BNP members. They were discussing their belief that the party was controlled by MI5, and that it was designed to make immigration an issue that was tied to racism and National Socialism.

        The EDL had plenty of non-white leaders and supporters. The media went out of their way never to report on this and to conceal the photographic and video evidence.

    • Alexsandr

      i am afraid the electorate have been duped over renegotiation. The EU will not give meaningful concessions. the poorer eastern countries will block it via QMV, Cameron will come pack with a piece of paper in his hand like Baldwin, but the concessions will be flim flam. Wilson did just that in 1975. But we know that trick now and are ready for it.

      • Conway

        I think it was Chamberlain, rather than Baldwin, but I know what you mean.

        • Alexsandr

          of course it was. thanks for correction.

    • Conway

      Well, if “most want to wait and see what concessions we can get” then they can’t have been listening to the bigwigs in the EU or they would know we can’t “cherry pick”, we’d need to have everybody agree (and they won’t), and nothing can be done about the move to a USE (something most people are against).

    • Bill_der_Berg

      The concerns raised by UKIP include loss of control of our bodies and the effect of mass immigration on demand for housing and schools. It’s true that Cameron has promised to use powers he does not posses to restrict the number of immigrants from the EU, and Ed Miliband is going to do something or other. That is not what is meant by serious debate.

  • cromwell

    The British people have found in UKIP an outlet for their understandable fear of their country been radically and irrevocably changed by mass immigration especially by followers of a certain religion whose god promotes the direct opposite of everything we hold dear. I am sure the politcal establishment will use fair means or foul to destroy UKIP.

    • anyfool

      The BBC line is mainly focussed on France with FN getting 25%, a massive earthquake in the eyes of the Gite dwellers among them.
      Not such a big deal about UKIP getting almost 30%, their attitude will be ignore facts, condemn anyone from any party who disagrees with the current consensus, and sneer at the voters who pay the licence fees.

      • Makroon

        Perhaps because the French are one of the two architect countries of the whole Euro project, whereas the Brits have always been dragging their feet and deeply sceptical ?
        Murray talks about the parties “getting the message”, but scanning the Kipper posts on here, the “message” seems to be many and varied.

        • Wessex Man

          jealousy will get you nowhere!

        • Conway

          Perhaps because the French are favoured by the CAP while the British have been shafted by the CFP and we’ve always been a net contributor could have something to do with our attitude? That and the fact that, for so many reasons (history, culture, legal system) we don’t fit in.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          So not a sharp message like you Camerluvvies then? You know, the global warmingism, massive tax increases, homosexual marriage, bombs away everywhere, spending like Laborg, and praying at the EUSSR shrine?

      • James Lovelace

        But the situation with the FN is more shocking. Here is a party with a long-established history of going against the dominant narrative of racism and anti-semitism, and it is the winner in France.

        By contrast UKIP are squeaky clean (despite the lies of the British media and disregard for true racism). Farage will have nothing to do with the FN (who, having dropped the racism, are now being described as “extreme far right”, such is the paucity of the analysis by the presstitutes). It is widely claimed that the PVV in Holland have gone down in popularity precisely because Wilders said he will work with Le Pen.

  • anyfool

    That idiot Miliband will not change, the witless fool was actually bragging that he beat the Tories into second place, second place is losing no matter which way you cut it.
    What idiot brags about losing, Miliband apparently, you really could not make it up.

    • allymax bruce

      “What idiot brags about losing,”
      Quite! While, nobody has asked the obvious questions about UKIP; ‘why would an anti-EU party, want to get elected to the very institution they want nothing to do with?’

      • anyfool

        So they can vote to shut it down, so they can vote against detrimental rules .
        So they can have a voice, you cannot fight outside the ring.

        • allymax bruce

          anyfool, I’m probably the most unwelcome commenter on this blog just now, but I’m still right; nobody is asking the basic question; the UKIP oxymoron.

          • James Lovelace

            No. You’ve always been unwelcome. Everywhere.

          • Kitty MLB

            You most certainly are not the most unwelcome commentator
            Ally.
            Nigel Farage has said in a interview that he wants to destroy the Conservative Party. leave the EU then leave politics himself. Sounds rather dare I say odd to me. And Conservative
            voters who are at UKIP will think the same. Some have issues
            with Mr Cameron but not the actual Conservative Party.
            I think someone is letting their little moment in the sunshine
            get to their head.

            • allymax bruce

              You really are a sweetheart, Kitty.
              Yes, Nigel surely is enjoying his moment in the sunshine.

            • Conway

              I have severe issues with the current Conservative Party as shaped by Dave. There is no way they’ll be getting my vote back.

      • Rhoda Klapp8

        Nobody asked this time because it’s a stupid question which has been answered long ago.

      • cromwell

        ‘why would an anti-EU party, want to get elected to the very institution they want nothing to do with?’
        Because in a democracy you have to get elected to implement the policies you believe in. True only the British parliament can get us out of the EU but the EU elections are a springboard for those of the upcoming British ones. If only the LibDems had delivered on proportional representation UKIP would hold the balance of power after the next general election if not an outright majority.

        • allymax bruce

          sorry cromwell, that just doesn’t add-up. First-of-all, UKIP is fundamentally an ‘independence party’; independence from the European Union. Thus, UKIP would need to win the UK General Election outright, to achieve their goal. Not going to happen; everybody knows that. Moreover, the Westminster Establishment duopoly, (Conservatives & Labour), have publicly stated they want to stay in the EU; there’s no way UKIP could ‘pact’ with either of these Establishment Party’s to demand an ‘EU-out’ policy as Coalition agreement. At best, UKIP could only project their G.E. ambitions towards a ‘negotiated reform of EU’; the route David Cameron is taking, (my advice btw!).
          As far as the European Parliament (EP), itself is concerned; taking into consideration the somewhat 7 EP Party’s, there’s absolutely no chance a minority of conglomerates, ECR, (Europeans for Conservative Reform), will achieve anything. Farage has made it absolutely clear he/UKIP will not conglomerate with Le Pen’s NF; thus, UKIP in EP will be a minnow. Moreover, where about in any of the EPP’s does it say on their label ‘anti-EU EP’? Sorry cromwell, but you are being conned.

          • cromwell

            “Thus, UKIP would need to win the UK General Election outright, to achieve their goal. Not going to happen; everybody knows that.”

            An outright win is not necessary for us to have a democratic vote on EU membership, balance of power with tory eurosceptics could do the job. And remember despite everything the MSM and the established political parties have thrown agen em UKIP have won the majority of votes in the EU elections why not in the mother of parliaments.

            • allymax bruce

              By the time UKIP are Established as the Third Party, the EU will have been ‘renegotiated’, with terms & conditions that will suit the overly centre-right Establishment bias, (Conservatives & UKIP); of which, erodes the lefty Labour ‘progressive’ ideals. Not a bad thing if you ask me. The MSM are working for The Conservatives. This is what I said a month ago; “Existential maximum exposure; that’s what Massie, and The Spectator are doing. They are giving Nigel maximum exposure, subconsciously telling us, the Public, there’s no other option, other than Farage, or, the Establishment Party’s. In other words, Massie is ‘building’ Farage ‘into’ power. Farage & The Conservative Party have got this whole shin-dig sewn-up.” (Spectator article: Nigel Farage is just Russell Brand for old people).
              cromwell, the whole UK is desperate to move to ‘the right’, and that’s what’s being ‘managed’ right now.

              • cromwell

                Depends what you mean by right, some may be socially conservative but politically left, some may be the opposite or any shade in between, but whether we are been conned or not UKIP gives us an alternative and if as you say it is a contrived alternative well, sometimes such things can take on a life of their own and lead where the instigators never intended.

              • Kitty MLB

                The Conservative Party will never do any deals or coalitions Ally. And anyone can throw stones when they have no responsibility. And when they have some we see how they deal with it.. Not everything can be about the EU.
                There are council issues, education , the economy, welfare etc
                The media are just enjoying there moment. As they because of the internet are a beast around a ever shrinking pool of water
                and are after every piece of red meat they can find.
                Real and everyday life is what affects the electorate, not
                what is said in the media.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                So your point is that people are stupid and don’t really want to vote for UKIP, but are?

            • Wessex Man

              We only need to take the place of the KLib/dums as seems likely in an Alliance with the Tories, which seems likely after Scottish Independence and the world is our oyster!

          • Rhoda Klapp8

            A PR election is the only chance for a new party to get its nose in. The uselessness of this toy parliament is not relevant. This is the only properly PR election in the UK. You contest it in order to build. To me the actual electing of MEPs only represents a few lucky individuals winning a lottery giving them a fortune in salary and expenses for no responsibility. They are no use to me.

            • allymax bruce

              Rhoda, this has all been about ‘moving the UK to the Right’; and I’m not complaining. The lefty Labour ‘progressive’ PC stuff really gets on my wick. I’m just saying, don’t expect to get out of the EU. David Cameron will get his ‘renegotiation’, and Nigel will come ‘on-board’; with a bigger ECR EP to boulster the ‘move to the right’ reforms in ‘Britain’, and in EP.

              • Conway

                David Cameron will get his ‘renegotiation’” I’m glad you put quotes around renegotiation, because it won’t be genuine, nor will it be in any way meaningful, although no doubt it will be trumpeted as a major success and used to try to con us into staying in the nascent USE, just as Wilson did in 1975.

                • allymax bruce

                  Annnndd, you can eat your words; news all around the European gov’s today says France, Germany, Denmark, UK, (and many many more!), all ‘renegotiating’ with David Cameron leading the discussions.
                  I’m surprised at you Conway; I never thought of you as part of the Village Idiot’s Loonies gang; Village Idiot, G-string, Inverted mucous, and ConVey.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              Au contraire, Farage’s YouTube thundering has been a catalyst for change, and quite useful.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            You certainly seem terrified of UKIP, lad.

      • disqus_KdiRmsUO4U

        Exposed yourself to a right kick in the slats with your question ..didn’t you ? hehehehehehehe

        • allymax bruce

          disqus_KdiRmsUO4U … We’ll see.
          Like I said, I always keep my promises. If I have to go on holiday, Sunny Lisbon is my destination.

          • Wessex Man

            of course you sre not the most unwelcome commentator on here Ally, theres Tele and Hooky and then you, don’t get ideals above your station!

            • Inverted Meniscus

              Don’t forget the rest of the cybernat nutters.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …and the herd of sockpuppets from that one socialist nutter.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Yes I have had quite enough of that gibberish spouting nutter for one day.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  How could I forget that green envirowhacko socialist nutter and his gibberish spouting menagerie of idiot sock puppets.

            • allymax bruce

              I may be the most unwelcome ‘on here’, but that’s better than being the most stupid; there’s you, the Village Idiot, then your side-kick G-string; inverted mucous ‘labouring in your rear’.

      • Wessex Man

        why ally to fight it from inside to try and talk it’s commands out of time, ah the glorious revolution.

      • Inverted Meniscus

        You mean like their seat in Scotland?

        • allymax bruce

          Your reply is stupid; it doesn’t make any sense.
          Why am I not surprised?

          • Inverted Meniscus

            So UKIP does not have an MEP in Scotland. Your behind the curve you thick worthless piece of scum.

            • allymax bruce

              Shouldn’t you be on the Scotchman; you’re an embarrassment.

              • Inverted Meniscus

                Coming from an SNP nutter that is hilarious.

    • Alexsandr

      labour have done badly outside london and north east england. They have ceased to be a national party.

      • Makroon

        I think Farage is right, Red will eventually be dragged kicking and whimpering to supporting a referendum, “but only if Cameron agrees to his demands on negotiation and the question”.

  • Ricky Strong

    Nothing will change unless we make it so, keep pushing, keep going and really stick it to the lot of them in the general election – we can all do our bit, we all know people who don’t bother to vote, if we can get at least five non-voters in that booth next year then we can force real change. Make it happen.

    • cromwell

      Hard work when your up against postal voting fraud in places like Bradford, London and Birmingham. No one rushing to fix that, can they be afraid of the religion of peace?

      • Ricky Strong

        Perhaps we should look to Tower Hamlets for an answer, still counting I do believe.

        • cromwell

          Indeed!

        • James Lovelace

          The borough where 125 polling stations had police outside. The borough where those police did nothing to stop the muslims gathering en masse and badgering everyone going to vote. The borough where the EU ballot paper was folded over to conceal UKIP as an option.

          • cromwell

            Islam and democracy are implacably opposed.

  • Rhoda Klapp8

    They did not want to listen or understand before. If they are shocked now, they may pretend to get it, but they won’t. Their concern now is to give the appearance of appreciating the problem, not to actually change anything material. ‘A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still’.

    Immigration, the EU, climate change/energy policy, foreign wars and multi-culturalism. The five issues where around half of the electorate can find no echoing opinion in the big two and a fraction parties. I can’t see how they can reach a position where they can convince us they have changed.

    The test? If all those useless bloody talking heads this morning were asked by their bubblemates in the media: ‘ Will you be reversing any policy, rather than telling us you are listening and that your current policies, if properly understood, are correct?’

    • Alexsandr

      chuck up certainly didn’t on bbc breakfast. just useless waffle about having to get their message better. So i think they will ignore the result and hope it goes away

      Expect a pic in tomorrows paper of millipede the useless clegg and the trecherous cameron standing with their fingers in their ears singing ‘la la la cant hear you’

      • telemachus

        Cameron was sound on Today
        He in a measured way said he had heard and that he would and could deliver a referendum after renegotiation
        Renegotiation has been made so much easier since these elections particularly with Le Pen in France
        Only Cameron can deliver anything like UKIP voters seem to want

        • RavenRandom

          Interesting change in tone Tele. Are you all right?

          • James Lovelace

            The fascist Left have seen the writing on the wall. They played the only card they had — the accusation of witchcraft (racism) — and it didn’t work.

            • telemachus

              May not have worked
              But true nonetheless

              • James Lovelace

                If you could, you would have burned every UKIP supporter at the stake. Including the black and asian ones.

              • Colonel Mustard

                Another lie. You have the audacity and arrogance to speak of truth whilst writing lie after lie after lie.

              • Wessex Man

                liar, liar what about the Asian councillors who resigned en block from the racist Labour Party!

          • telemachus

            My belief in Europe trumps all
            As of today I see only one way to stay a part and prevent Civil Unrest
            The Charismatic one could change all that

            • RavenRandom

              Thanks Tele I was getting worried until “The Charismatic one”. You do know that very few people see him as charismatic, more as an economy wrecking serial liar.

            • Andy

              Your belief in Fascism trumps all.

        • Colonel Mustard

          Tim Montgomerie has Cameron nailed:-

          “Spend most of your time as Tory leader ignoring the issue that matters most to your activist members: Europe. Launch your bid to be leader by promising to introduce a tax allowance for married couples and then, once you’ve won power, fail to deliver that pledge at four successive Budgets. Tell parents that they can set up any school they want as long as it’s not the one they most want, a grammar school. Stop Gordon Brown holding a honeymoon election in 2007 by promising to abolish inheritance tax but then put it up in office. Spend the general election campaign talking about an issue that no one understands — the Big Society — and don’t talk about immigration, an issue that three-quarters of voters do care about. Subsidise expensive renewable energies at a time when families are struggling to pay their electricity bills. Form a coalition with the Liberal Democrats even though 80 per cent of your members want you to lead a minority government. Promise not to reorganise the NHS, then reorganise it anyway. Oppose press regulation but then embrace it. Keep pledging to tackle European human rights laws but do nothing when Abu Qatada proves again and again that Britain is run by inventive lawyers rather than democratically-drafted laws. Insist that you want to reach out to northern and poorer parts of Britain but stuff your Downing Street operation with southern chums who attended the same elite private schools as you. And, just for good measure, insult people who normally vote for your party as clowns, fruitcakes and closet racists.”

          • Magnolia

            Agreed. Mr Cameron said on Today, this day of all days, when asked if ministers would be allowed an open vote and to openly campaign on out in his 2017 EU referendum, that party policy was to vote to stay in the EU after renegotiation, so ‘no’ then.
            I’m a eurosceptic conservative and I’ve always been one and I’m not alone. Do his words mean that there is no place in my party for the likes of me? Tory wets and modernisers (code for Blairite) only please and every one else move along…and they wonder why UKIP does so well.

            • Makroon

              A referendum is a referendum – everyone is entitled to vote as they wish, Cameron can’t/won’t tell Conservative members to vote ‘stay in’ on pain of ejection.
              Are you feeling unloved ?

              • the viceroy’s gin

                Do you have difficulty with reading comprehension? The contention above was that Call Me Dave on Today said the answer to those questions was “no”. Are you implying that he was lying, or the above commenter was lying?

            • Andy

              Exactly.

            • telemachus

              You will be crushed like UKIP
              Your role is to ensure the referendum
              The rest of us will ensure you lose it

              • SimonToo

                Why?

              • global city

                Did you not see what the leader of the new left wing party in Spain said about the EU?

                His leftism seems to be much purer than yours, but he sees things quite differently.

              • Wessex Man

                you and your dad.

              • ButcombeMan

                tele, you always amuse me, so lacking in basic political nous are you. Your glorious leader left the battlefield before the battle by refusing to debate Farage.

                When he does choose to engage he is going to have a real problem defending a system and political union which is impoverishing so many millions.

                So are you. The crisis in Europe is just beginnning.

                • 2trueblue

                  The crisis began a long time ago, now we are seeing how fed up the rest of them are. We are not the only ones fed up with the whole mess and the stealing of our democracy. It is certainly going to be interesting.

              • JackyTreehorn

                Speaking of losing, have you managed to wash that big L off of your forehead since Thursday?

            • HookesLaw

              Are you a minister? No. So you can campaign and vote as you like. Point is you will get a vote and campaign with the Tories. You would also get meaningful negotiations.
              Do you want to be a supporter of a party of zombie morons who all worship the same narrow policy? A big party contains various different views. They have to live together with that.

          • Makroon

            All of that Montgomery blather could be reduced to – went into coalition with the LibDems which tied his hands.
            The whole bloody country was crying out for someone to save the economy from bankruptcy, not leave the EU.
            This guy and his fellow-prat Iain Dale, are always wrong.

            • Smithersjones2013

              Oh so that’s the Tories problem then? They cannot multi-task. Well that’s not much good then…….

            • Colonel Mustard

              I think the Lib Dems were a good smokescreen for Cameron. I voted Tory in 2010 loyally and because I believed his guff about “sweeping away” New Labour’s nanny state. As ‘Liberal’ ‘Democrats’ that undertaking should not have been a problem for his coalition partners. Instead we got his sponsorship of Mary Whitehouse Mk 2 the odious Claire Perry and various other illiberal promotions.

              He did absolutely nothing to purge New Labour’s stay behind parties and “shadow government” so Grieve allowed Starmer to continue politicising the CPS and he even supported the continuation of the Mega Apparatchik Nicholson in the NHS and various other New Labour appointees. Plain stupid or covering the backs of fellow CP alumni?

              Lots of other examples and Montgomerie is spot on. Cameron is a slippery fellow, a spinner but a bad one, an atrocious “leader” who has done more dividing than uniting and an arrogant fool who doesn’t appreciate the difference between his personal values and his public responsibilities. Many of his “interventions” have been trite, ill judged or plain stupid. He is incontinent about spouting his views when to do so is unnecessary and unwise. Indulging in silly selfies with members of the public just brings his office into disrepute.

              • Makroon

                I agree with most of that.
                If he was a bumbling Eton chap (like Douglas Home), it would be kind of forgivable, but the giveaway is the way he surrounds himself with his inner circle of clone-cronies.
                Fortunately there are better men in the cabinet.

                • Wessex Man

                  come on then do tell.

              • Kitty MLB

                Sorry Colonel. David Cameron has many faults and has made mistakes. But he is a decent man who is somewhat naïve and
                easily manipulated by those who ‘ advise’ him and the Lib Dems. But yes he has allowed the Lib Dems far too much say
                and for them to have far too much their own way.
                Cameron most certainly is not a manipulative political player
                like Blair or as savvy and politically minded as Nigel Farage
                or Alex Salmond.

                • telemachus

                  Ladybird
                  Again you speak truths
                  You are absolutely right to identify Osborne as the problem

                • SimonToo

                  “He is a decent man who is somewhat naïve and easily manipulated by those who ‘ advise’ him”. So, definitely not Prime Ministerial material then.

                • Kitty MLB

                  David Cameron needs to trust his own judgement. And being
                  a decent chap and not playing manipulative political games
                  places him higher then most. And he can be trusted in a crisis. Can Miliband or Clegg. It takes more then popular
                  words and stone throwing and requires responsibility.

                • John Lea

                  If what you say is correct, can you please tell me why he said – in re to UKIP – that he didn’t make deals or pacts, when he is the leader of a coalition govt?

                • Kitty MLB

                  Cameron didn’t win a majority. We assumed the smaller party would work in the national interest. Coalitions may
                  work abroad but we prefer majorities and our own manifestos
                  instead of coalition agreements. The Lib Dems won just enough votes in a general election to go into government.
                  They also have seats in parliament.
                  I think in reflection Mr Cameron would have been better with a minority but the economy was on its knees at the time and
                  there would have been issues with the £.

                • Conway

                  I didn’t think Cameron had any judgment of his own; I thought he relied on focus groups. He certainly comes over as a man with no conviction. He’d pretend to believe in anything if he thought it would get him a vote.

                • John Lea

                  Yes, I think that’s pretty much spot on. Kitty’s response to my original question sounded like the usual party politlcal waffle. No wonder people voted UKIP.

                • Wessex Man

                  really Kitty, you don’t believe that do you, Call me Dave is nothing but an unprincipled opportunist gushing liar!

                • Aberrant_Apostrophe

                  WTF did the Tories elect him as party leader then? Could you imagine a major company appointing the head of the PR department to run it?

                • 2trueblue

                  They elected him because there was/is no one else. Howard failed, Duncan Smith failed, Hague failed, Unfortunately there was no one there. Who else is there? May seems to be the one man there with enough presence to actually add to the pot.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  I thought Cameron prevailed over David Davis because the latter was not “the right sort” don’t you know?

                  Sometimes amusing to look back:-

                  “Thursday’s televised debate underlined key differences in approach between the two contenders. Mr Cameron wants to set the general Tory direction now but not rush into details, concentrating on getting things right in the long term. But Mr Davis said the public wanted to know what Tory policies would mean. Voters had seen three Blair governments and were tired of the “era of spin”, he said.
                  “So frankly, this is the worst moment for the Conservative Party to imitate Tony Blair.” Mr Cameron denied claims from one member of the studio audience that he was giving only “waffle”. “Don’t make the mistake of trying to set out every day in this leadership campaign policies that will make us look ridiculous in five years’ time,” he said.
                  “Imitating Blair is producing a policy for tomorrow’s newspapers, that is what Blair has done.””

                  “On policies, shadow home secretary Mr Davis has suggested a referendum to demand full-scale return of power from the European Union to Britain. This would be followed by a second referendum after talks with the European Union, so voters could judge if he had delivered the goods. Mr Cameron said he wanted to see the UK take back some powers on social policy and employment policy. But he suggested the referendums idea was designed to win favourable media coverage.”

                  “Mr Davis has set out plans to produce £38bn a year in tax cuts by the general election after next. He said the Institute for Fiscal Studies had said Mr Cameron’s different approach – to share the proceeds of economic growth between investing in public services and having low taxes – did not mean anything.”

                  “The pair were also asked what counted more for a Tory leader: youth or experience. Mr Davis, 56, said he had taken on Labour’s big hitters but Mr Cameron, 39, argued that what really mattered was setting the right direction for the party.”

                  And we now know what that direction was.

                • 2trueblue

                  So, where from here?

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Too late I think. Wrong leader chosen. For all his faults Davis would have not have had the Eton baggage, he clearly rejected the Blair spin and would probably have resonated more with ordinary people in a similar way to Farage.

                • 2trueblue

                  Oh dear, better just go away and hide under the duvet?
                  I don’t believe that we are doomed. We are where we are and frankly the damage done by Liebore has still to be paid for. They totally wrecked the UK. I am hard pressed to think of any gain we made in the 13yrs.
                  They destroyed the chances for the young, by downgrading our education across the board, teenage pregnancies grew, youth unemployment grew, child poverty grew…….. I fail to think of one thing that improved in the 13yrs. We had professionals up north who blamed young girls who were being abused by calling it a “lifestyle choice”. We were left with problems that not one of them has taken responsibility for or offered any cure.

                  Listen to the arrogance now from Liebore.

                • miford

                  Totally agree. May’s got more balls than the rest of them put together.

                • miford

                  Yes Cameron seems a nice enough chap, but read this:

                  “And if any of you think we’re going to get a referendum – Think Again – THIS IS WHY CAMERON IS STALLING FOR TIME.
                  HOW CAMERON STILL LIES
                  Under the Nice treaty, any initiative/prospective laws or directives from the EU in the areas listed below could only be passed by “ Unanimity ”.
                  We can VETO EU legislation not in our National interests. So, Parliament at Westminster retains National Sovereignty in these areas.
                  But the LibLabCons, Cameron in particular, have not made this clear to the Nation, WHY ? ?
                  From 1st November 2014 under the LISBON TREATY, the right of parliament to legislate in these listed areas will be removed. The EU can pass its own legislation by ” qualified majority voting ” (QMV).
                  We will not be able to veto anything not in our National interest. Sovereignty gone !
                  There will be a mechanism allowing “ transitional arrangements ” up to March 2017 ONLY.
                  THIS is where Cameron is exercising an awful “ slight of hand ” on our Nation when he “ promises “ an in/out Referendum. He has been careful to say this referendum will not be before 2017, specifically (note the word) the “ END ” of 2017, by which time the below powers will be out of our reach to alter.
                  Look at the last competence. It says “ WITHDRAWAL OF A MEMBER STATE ”.
                  Ask yourself, if we have given away the right of withdrawal from the EU by March 2017, will a referendum at the END of 2017 resulting in a withdrawal vote, is likely to happen.
                  Cameron will be able to say, “Sorry guys ! !, I can’t do anything about it… the rest of the EU under QMV will not allow us to leave.
                  like a lobster which has wandered into a lobster pot, we will not be able to get out. Any referendum will be effectively meaningless!!
                  Clever, or what ! ! !
                  HERE ARE THE AREAS OF COMPETANCE BEING CEDED.
                  1. Initiatives of the High Representative for Foreign Affairs
                  2. Administrative co-operation
                  3. Asylum
                  4. Border controls
                  5. Citizens’ initiative regulations
                  6. Civil protection
                  7. Committee of the Regions
                  8. Common defence policy
                  9. Crime prevention incentives
                  10. Criminal judicial co-operation
                  11. Criminal law
                  12. Culture
                  13. Diplomatic & Consular protection
                  14. Economic & Social Committee
                  15. Emergency international aid
                  16. Energy
                  17. EU budget
                  18. Eurojust
                  19. European Central Bank
                  20. European Court of Justice
                  21. Europol
                  22.Eurozone external representation
                  23. Foreign Affairs High Representative election
                  24. Freedom of movement for workers
                  25. Freedom to establish a business
                  26. Freedom, security, justice, co-operation & evaluation
                  27. Funding the Common Foreign & Security Policy
                  28. General economic interest services
                  29. Humanitarian aid
                  30. Immigration
                  31. Intellectual property
                  32. Organisation of the Council of the EU
                  33. Police co-operation
                  34. President of the European Council election
                  35. Response to natural disasters & terrorism
                  36. Rules concerning the Armaments Agency
                  37. Self-employment access rights
                  38. Social Security Unanimity
                  39. Space
                  40. Sport
                  41. Structural & Cohension Funds
                  42. Tourism
                  43. Transport
                  44. Withdrawal of a member state
                  From Clive Eastern
                  Please, bombard your MP and MEPs with as much of your wrath as you can muster.
                  Spread this as wide as you can.

                  Thank you Cameron for being deceitful to the UK people

                  People and faces

            • Kitty MLB

              Everything has become slightly silly at the moment what with the EU elections. Which is about who makes the loudest noise
              in Brussels. The general election about who governs this country is a different kettle of chips.

              • Wessex Man

                you two are in danger of becoming made for each other!

            • the viceroy’s gin

              So basically your guy answered that call by adopting Darling’s budget jot and tittle and then hiking taxes massively. That it, lad? That’s what you think the “country was crying out for”?

              Do you understand why these muppets are being rejected? You’re giving the precise reasons, but it seems you don’t understand them.

          • Smithersjones2013

            Oh how Conservative Home has declined since Tim left…….He had some daft ideas but he could be very insightful when the mood took him.

          • General_Patten

            I have been saying for years that Cameron has shocking judgement. The above just covers a few examples. Add Defence spending & his Cast Iron guarantee.

          • Conway

            You forgot deny you had any intention of introducing legislation to redefine marriage, omit any mention of it from the Queen’s Speech and then get it through with the help of the opposition against the wishes of many in your own party. It isn’t UKIP that will destroy the Conservative Party; Dave is managing that quite nicely all on his own.

        • miford

          Yes Cameron seems a nice enough chap, but read this:

          “And if any of you think we’re going to get a referendum – Think Again – THIS IS WHY CAMERON IS STALLING FOR TIME.
          HOW CAMERON STILL LIES
          Under the Nice treaty, any initiative/prospective laws or directives from the EU in the areas listed below could only be passed by “ Unanimity ”.
          We can VETO EU legislation not in our National interests. So, Parliament at Westminster retains National Sovereignty in these areas.
          But the LibLabCons, Cameron in particular, have not made this clear to the Nation, WHY ? ?
          From 1st November 2014 under the LISBON TREATY, the right of parliament to legislate in these listed areas will be removed. The EU can pass its own legislation by ” qualified majority voting ” (QMV).
          We will not be able to veto anything not in our National interest. Sovereignty gone !
          There will be a mechanism allowing “ transitional arrangements ” up to March 2017 ONLY.
          THIS is where Cameron is exercising an awful “ slight of hand ” on our Nation when he “ promises “ an in/out Referendum. He has been careful to say this referendum will not be before 2017, specifically (note the word) the “ END ” of 2017, by which time the below powers will be out of our reach to alter.
          Look at the last competence. It says “ WITHDRAWAL OF A MEMBER STATE ”.
          Ask yourself, if we have given away the right of withdrawal from the EU by March 2017, will a referendum at the END of 2017 resulting in a withdrawal vote, is likely to happen.
          Cameron will be able to say, “Sorry guys ! !, I can’t do anything about it… the rest of the EU under QMV will not allow us to leave.
          like a lobster which has wandered into a lobster pot, we will not be able to get out. Any referendum will be effectively meaningless!!
          Clever, or what ! ! !
          HERE ARE THE AREAS OF COMPETANCE BEING CEDED.
          1. Initiatives of the High Representative for Foreign Affairs
          2. Administrative co-operation
          3. Asylum
          4. Border controls
          5. Citizens’ initiative regulations
          6. Civil protection
          7. Committee of the Regions
          8. Common defence policy
          9. Crime prevention incentives
          10. Criminal judicial co-operation
          11. Criminal law
          12. Culture
          13. Diplomatic & Consular protection
          14. Economic & Social Committee
          15. Emergency international aid
          16. Energy
          17. EU budget
          18. Eurojust
          19. European Central Bank
          20. European Court of Justice
          21. Europol
          22.Eurozone external representation
          23. Foreign Affairs High Representative election
          24. Freedom of movement for workers
          25. Freedom to establish a business
          26. Freedom, security, justice, co-operation & evaluation
          27. Funding the Common Foreign & Security Policy
          28. General economic interest services
          29. Humanitarian aid
          30. Immigration
          31. Intellectual property
          32. Organisation of the Council of the EU
          33. Police co-operation
          34. President of the European Council election
          35. Response to natural disasters & terrorism
          36. Rules concerning the Armaments Agency
          37. Self-employment access rights
          38. Social Security Unanimity
          39. Space
          40. Sport
          41. Structural & Cohension Funds
          42. Tourism
          43. Transport
          44. Withdrawal of a member state
          From Clive Eastern
          Please, bombard your MP and MEPs with as much of your wrath as you can muster.
          Spread this as wide as you can.

          Thank you Cameron for being deceitful to the UK people

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        • miford

          Cameron seems a nice enough chap, but read this:

          “And if any of you think we’re going to get a referendum – Think Again – THIS IS WHY CAMERON IS STALLING FOR TIME.
          HOW CAMERON STILL LIES
          Under the Nice treaty, any initiative/prospective laws or directives from the EU in the areas listed below could only be passed by “ Unanimity ”.
          We can VETO EU legislation not in our National interests. So, Parliament at Westminster retains National Sovereignty in these areas.
          But the LibLabCons, Cameron in particular, have not made this clear to the Nation, WHY ? ?
          From 1st November 2014 under the LISBON TREATY, the right of parliament to legislate in these listed areas will be removed. The EU can pass its own legislation by ” qualified majority voting ” (QMV).
          We will not be able to veto anything not in our National interest. Sovereignty gone !
          There will be a mechanism allowing “ transitional arrangements ” up to March 2017 ONLY.
          THIS is where Cameron is exercising an awful “ slight of hand ” on our Nation when he “ promises “ an in/out Referendum. He has been careful to say this referendum will not be before 2017, specifically (note the word) the “ END ” of 2017, by which time the below powers will be out of our reach to alter.
          Look at the last competence. It says “ WITHDRAWAL OF A MEMBER STATE ”.
          Ask yourself, if we have given away the right of withdrawal from the EU by March 2017, will a referendum at the END of 2017 resulting in a withdrawal vote, is likely to happen.
          Cameron will be able to say, “Sorry guys ! !, I can’t do anything about it… the rest of the EU under QMV will not allow us to leave.
          like a lobster which has wandered into a lobster pot, we will not be able to get out. Any referendum will be effectively meaningless!!
          Clever, or what ! ! !
          HERE ARE THE AREAS OF COMPETANCE BEING CEDED.
          1. Initiatives of the High Representative for Foreign Affairs
          2. Administrative co-operation
          3. Asylum
          4. Border controls
          5. Citizens’ initiative regulations
          6. Civil protection
          7. Committee of the Regions
          8. Common defence policy
          9. Crime prevention incentives
          10. Criminal judicial co-operation
          11. Criminal law
          12. Culture
          13. Diplomatic & Consular protection
          14. Economic & Social Committee
          15. Emergency international aid
          16. Energy
          17. EU budget
          18. Eurojust
          19. European Central Bank
          20. European Court of Justice
          21. Europol
          22.Eurozone external representation
          23. Foreign Affairs High Representative election
          24. Freedom of movement for workers
          25. Freedom to establish a business
          26. Freedom, security, justice, co-operation & evaluation
          27. Funding the Common Foreign & Security Policy
          28. General economic interest services
          29. Humanitarian aid
          30. Immigration
          31. Intellectual property
          32. Organisation of the Council of the EU
          33. Police co-operation
          34. President of the European Council election
          35. Response to natural disasters & terrorism
          36. Rules concerning the Armaments Agency
          37. Self-employment access rights
          38. Social Security Unanimity
          39. Space
          40. Sport
          41. Structural & Cohension Funds
          42. Tourism
          43. Transport
          44. Withdrawal of a member state
          From Clive Eastern
          Please, bombard your MP and MEPs with as much of your wrath as you can muster.
          Spread this as wide as you can.

          Thank you Cameron for being deceitful to the UK people

    • HookesLaw

      Relatively modest amounts of immigration relate to the EU.. . Large numbers involve students. Take away skilled immigration and Brits returning and the numbers are not the vast figures that kippers howl about.
      UKIP have a narrow victory in a 4 cornered contest. The biggest anti party gained and the biggest pro was marmalised. That’s all true. But 72% voted against ukips tirade. We can glean some comfort that about 9% of the voting age population trended towards ukips bigotry.

      • Redneck

        HookesLaw

        I don’t mean to be rude but how do I explain the very large number of non-Britons, both from Eastern Europe & the Thirld World, who now constitute around 25% of the neighbours on my street (24 houses / 7 families not British)?
        There were none 6-years ago. They average about 3-4 children per family, as best we can judge.

        Is this just an geographical anomaly peculiar to me?

        • AlwaysIntegrity

          Probably, when brits settle outside of the Uk they usually co-locate as well

          • Redneck

            Alwaysintegrity
            Thank you for your comment.

            I’m not sure co-location applies if they’re from different countries (not certain: may be two Nigerian families)?

            • Makroon

              “Last six years” ? Are you trying to blame ‘Neathergate’ on Cameron ?

              • Redneck

                Makroon

                Not at all. Just an observation of my street, clearly anecdotal, but one which I suspect is being replicated in many of the further flung corners of the UK which were formerly populated pretty much by “locals”.

                Just evidence, I’d surmise, of a ripple-effect of immigration now extending out to previously unaffected, more remote parts of the UK?

                • Makroon

                  OK, but from 1997-2007, the whole European economy was going pretty well, and the Labour government actively facilitated a big rise in immigration.
                  In recent years, UK unemployment has been declining, and now we also have fast growth, whilst most of Europe is stuck in the slow lane with high unemployment.
                  Given the free movement of labour in the EU, we now have about the most difficult possible conditions to try to stem immigration.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Stemming immigration is “difficult” because you Camerluvvies don’t want to do it, and haven’t even tried.

          • global city

            The ‘Brits working in the EU’ meme is a falacy.

            More than a million of them are people living in Spain on their own resources…. almost as many have homes in Florida… and many more live in Australia, Canada, etc. I am not aware of this being afforded by political union.

            So is the environmental issue. The next time a europhile proffers that guff should be asked how bad the environment is in Norway or Switzerland.

      • Smithersjones2013

        Ah but that 9% is more than Dave’s dismal 7%!

        PS I note you are comforted by the votes of Labour, Greens, Libdems, SNP, BNP et al. How close to them all do you feel that you feel comfortable counting those who voted for them? I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised that you ignore the bigotry and worse of other parties when it suits you……

      • Wessex Man

        get a life Hooky babe.

    • sarah_13

      Farage should be the winner based on his brilliant natural speaking style alone. His speech today at the intercontinental hotel was brilliant when he said that most of the media think that ukip voters are “retired half colonel’s living on the edge of salsbury plain desperate for the reintroduction of the birch who don’t cheer up until their first pink gin of the day”. Not only does he speak clearly on issues that concern ordinary people but he is self aware enough to see the humour in the caricatures and stereotypes thrown at him by the humourless media. Well done Nigel, I didn’t vote for ukip but if you were my MP I might.

      • Alexsandr

        when he is on have i got news for you, he is happy to laugh at himself and UKIP. that makes him a good guy in my book, not up his own ar$e.

  • FellowHQ

    Mr Murray, I think I speak on behalf of many people when I say ‘thank you’. You have been an almost lone voice of reason over the last month of increasingly hysterical attacks on UKIP. I give just one example of shark jumping – in the Telegraph, a final desperate plea not to vote UKIP because, errr, the paper didn’t like it’s cycling policy.
    This last month will not be forgotten even if we jump straight into rewriting history – something we’re seeing already by others in the media. Which would I pay a subscription to, Telegraph or Spectator? No question.

    • telemachus

      Farage HQ
      The media were correct to attack the reprehensible racist tone of UKIP
      I do not for a moment believe most of the voters are racist
      Now people have kicked they will vote for someone who can deliver
      *
      Sadly that is Cameron
      *
      But prhaps all is not lost
      We may be approaching the moment one

      • Colonel Mustard

        You are finished. Give it up.

    • James Lovelace

      I wish Douglas would see the writing on the wall, and would join UKIP. He would make an excellent UKIP MP and future leader of the party. He should realise that Thatcher was never a Tory, and join the new Thatcherite party.

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