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Ukip vs Tories vs Labour — how alike are the voters?

20 May 2014

9:31 AM

20 May 2014

9:31 AM

How similar are Ukip and Tory voters? Although the party hierarchies are keen to distance themselves from each other, there’s plenty of overlap in the opinions of their supporters. Firstly, both groups are enthusiastic about heading to the polls this Thursday. A few weeks ago, Ukip was slightly ahead of the other parties in the likeliness to vote ratings. Now the polling says they’re far more likely to vote than the Tories. According to the latest poll, almost three quarters of ‘kippers say they will definitely vote on Thursday compared to a little over half for the Tories:

The Tories and Ukippers have similar views on Faragiste warnings about Bulgarian and Romanian immigrants coming to the UK: they believe them. Although the prophecies of doom appear to have been false (according to the Office of National Statistics, who said that there were fewer Romanians and Bulgarians in work after transitional controls were lifted), more than a third of the public thinks that the warnings were right, and the official statistics are inaccurate. Ukippers and Conservatives are both a lot more likely to think the government is wrong than the 27 per cent of Labour voters who do:

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And what about Romanian and Bulgarians coming in Britain the first place? Both parties agree that the government should restrict their rights, even if it means breaking EU laws. Again, Ukip voters feel more strongly about this than Conservative voters, while Labour voters’ intentions are different:

Interestingly, there appears to be a disagreement over the rights of EU citizens to live and work here. In another YouGov poll, just over half of the public said they support the right of EU citizens to live and work in other EU countries. Breaking this down by political parties, 50 per cent of Tory voters support their rights but 65 per cent of Ukip voters feel the complete opposite:

The fact that Tory and Ukip voters share similar opinions may explain why senior Conservatives have tried to stop calling them names. But this hasn’t stopped them attacking Ukip the party — as seen by Eric Pickles’ remarks this weekend; he said Ukip were an ‘über-nationalist’ and ‘xenophobic’ party. But the strength of kippers’ opinions on matters of immigration suggests Pickles may have a point.

Matthew Goodwin and Robert Ford argue in their book Revolt on the Right that Ukip is moving beyond disenfranchised Tories, but the opinions between the two parties are still remain remarkably in line. On most of the questions above, the opinions of Labour voters are the opposite of Ukippers and Tories.

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Show comments
  • Marco Duz

    Hi all I am Italian, I have been working and living in the UK for over 8 years now. The point I am struggling with is if UKIP is xenophobic (definition of xenophobia from wikipedia: “irrational or unreasoned fear of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange”). The UKIP’s “fear of what is foreign” is quite clear to my eye, the question is whether this is irrational or actually rational. I don’t have anything against Romanians or Bulgarians, nevertheless many
    crimes in the UK are certainly related to people coming from these
    countries compared to people coming from Italy, Spain, France or
    Germany (which I suspect are the same as the brits?). I do agree with the UKIP rant on Europe limiting member’s state economical freedom (I believe in fact that BCE economic strategy is the main cause of the worst recession that has hit Italy since the WW2), but I firmly believe in a Europe where all citizens of members states can travel around Europe without restrictions. My concern started when eastern European countries were added to the European union (like Romania, Bulgaria etc). This move by Bruxelles bureaucrats was a clear move in my mind to allow cheap labour to enter other countries or the tax-free relocation of industrial production, favoring in fact the rich but not the poor. My view is that we should re-think Europe entirely. I do feel reasonably offended, after 8 years of being here, working and paying taxes, buying a house etc, and never breaking the law (beside a speeding ticked back in 2008) to feel like I could be stranded from the country, because Romanians “have an easy knife”. I am going to apply for British citizenship now, but only because I want to be sure I continue living the life I have so hard worked for in the past decade. I thought I would share the thought that many foreigners are indeed well integrated in British society, and they contribute to make the UK the great country it is. Way to make them feel un-wellcome!

  • Conway

    “the Office of National Statistics, who said that there were fewer Romanians and Bulgarians in work after transitional controls were lifted)” Fewer in work, eh? What about the numbers claiming benefits, then?

  • Leo

    Regarding Sir Nigel making negative comments about Romanians, there is a utube where Nigel actually takes on the Prime Minister of Romania, with his usual aplomb, telling him that his policies towards his own people, the Roma, were absolutely disgraceful. You can look this up. Funny how we don ‘t get to hear about this in the media.

  • Leo

    There’s not a cigarette paper’s difference between the LibLabCons. They’re ALL Europhiles and have sold the British Public out without asking us. Vote UKIP if you love your country before the EUSSR make 100% of our Laws in the UK. At the moment it’s between 75% and 92%. Shame on the LibLabCons.

    • HookesLaw

      A nice line in a stream of lies. Neither 75 nor 92 percent of our laws are made in the EU. Certainly the adage ‘patriotism is the last refuge of the Scoundrel’ is appropriate for you
      The Spectator is simply allowing itself to be a rabid Kipper talking shop.

      Its the tories who voted against the Lisbon treaty and who brought in legislation to trigger a referendum for any other treaty changes.

  • Smithersjones2013

    Oh dear is this little Sebby’s olive branch to Kippers in a vain attempt at trying to get them to return to the fold by telling them underneath all it we’re not that different?

    Things must be looking bleak for the Tories…..

    Taking a quick look at those polls it seems to me that in every case the Tory views are closer to Labour’s than to UKIP’s which brings us back to one of the core issues that divides Kippers and Tories (the the Tories are a parody of a Blairite Labour Party) now doesn’t it?

    The Tories wanted to own the centre ground. They are welcome to it. That they have lost the ground right of centre in doing so and now have to fight elections on two opposing fronts is their own fault…

    PS It is encouraging though to know that there is potentially another 10 to 20 points vote share that could be siphoned off the Tory vote under the right circumstances!

  • Leo

    UKIP are most certainly not Racists, Xenophobes or Homophobes. On the subject of Racism however, most countries in the EUSSR most certainly are.

  • you_kid

    EU citizens living & working in other countries

    That’s national socialism I say, right there, clear for everyone to see. There is no point denying it. Treaty of Rome rights are our rights and UKIP want to curtail them. Most of their supporters, if not all, are modestly pensioned off old moaners who have long withdrawn from all worklife activity. That just will not go together, that just will not wash. The next generation of you_kids will demand the same rights their dads and grandads have enjoyed. There is NOTHING ukip could do about it.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      Can any other of you socialist nutters translate this nutter’s gibberish?

  • the viceroy’s gin

    This Speccie kid is simply incoherent, and no reason to read this nonsense. So UKIP is a bunch of waaaaaaaycists, but then they’re also like everybody else?

    You are an ignorant and poorly educated stooge, lad. That is all.

    • you_kid

      Nats socialists, lad, that’s what you are – why deny it?
      Come out lad, come clean.

      Say it: I vote UKIP because I am a national socialist!

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …much like the above lefty stooge, in fact.

  • Slim Jim

    It would seem that the LibLabCon are becoming increasingly desperate, as their sanctimonious, cosy minority consensus is being challenged robustly. We have seen the smears against Nigel Farage, and this morning I received a leaflet through my letter box. It was written and paid for by someone called Tom Hollingworth, and it was asking me to ‘please read this before you vote’. It was a completely negative and pathetic attempt to pour scorn over UKIP’s policies, and it did not even suggest who I should vote for! I suppose ‘any of the above except UKIP’ was the point of this trash. Well, Mr. Hollingworth has wasted his money as far as I’m concerned, because guess which party I shall be voting for on Thursday?

  • Raddiy

    You persist with this Conservative/UKIP comparison , yet ignore the reality that across the main UKIP poliices EU, Immigration, Overseas aid, Green issues, fair treatment for England, Grammar schools etc, there is no left/right or Conservative/Labour axis.

    Only tribals who slavishly adhere to party before country mantra still think in those terms. To Kippers it is the policies that count, not the vehicle, UKIP is the current vehicle, but the message predates UKIP, and would postdate it if UKIP disappeared.

    The cat is out of the bag for the main parties, either start listening, or start losing, it is as simple as that, although I accept the tribal sheepie are probably intellectually incapable of understanding what is going on, and simply believe if you keep doing the same thing, you can hope that one day you might get a different outcome.

    Well good luck with that!!

    • Blindsideflanker

      Conservative, Labour, and Libdem parties have become captive for interest groups that don’t have the interests of the country at heart.

    • global city

      Excellent points!

  • RavenRandom

    UKIP and the SNP exist because of disenfranchisement. Some single issues, the EU, immigration, Scotland’s place in the union are such important issues that they needed specific policies and response from the big parties. The big parties ignored the public, thought they knew best and the public invented UKIP and the SNP in response.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      Actually, I’d say it’s the LibLabCon clones existing in the Londonistan bubble that have caused the backlash. It’s not about “single issues”. It’s the entire construct, and the clones who foster it. It’s LibLabCon in their entirety.

  • Denis_Cooper

    Last night on Newsnight Nigel Farage claimed that just over the past week 17 councillors had been ARRESTED on various charges, some quite serious.

    OK, so somebody may claim that it wasn’t 17, on their count it was only 15, but the point is that these are all people elected as councillors on the recommendation of the Tory, Labour or LibDem parties who have behaved in ways that have justified their arrest for REAL CRIMES.

    Meanwhile, during this election campaign maybe about the same number of UKIP candidates have been accused not of real crimes, but merely of THOUGHT CRIMES; and those people, fewer than 1% of all the UKIP candidates, have been assiduously drawn to the attention of the public through the mass media while the arrest of Tory, Labour and LibDem councillors has been largely ignored by the same media.

    And we know who has been principally responsible for trawling through the back stories of over 2000 UKIP candidates to dig up whatever dirt they can find, and we know who has been feeding the stories to the media, apparently even with an arrangement with the newspapers that they will be provided with a stream of salacious stories provided they go easy on the Tories.

    As I have repeatedly said, there are still many decent patriotic people who are members of the Tory party, and it may be asked how they will feel about the despicable behaviour of those leading their party; perhaps we will get some indication the next time that party publishes its membership figures.

    • Wessex Man

      I would agree with you entirely except it’s not just the Tory Party, both the Labour and Lib/dums have their own units to spread propaganda about Ukip assisted by all the major newspapers, who have always supported particular partries that in their eye can do no wrong, the Unions, especially Unison has prepared a crib sheet for their activists to compose letters to the press from.

      They behave this way because for forty or fifty years they have had a cosy time lying their teeth off to the British public and now they have been caught out.

      I realised this several months ago, when instead of debating political matters or economics their grobby supperters were just name calling in the letters pages and of course here in the same of the slimy Hooky and tele boy.

      When next the Daily Mail or Daily Telegraph whine about press freedom ignore them!

      • global city

        Exactly. The Liblabcon may be infuriating to see repeatedly written, but it is a real entity.

      • Conway

        It’s funny you should say that; we recently had a truly vile, fact-free, bile-filled anti-UKIP rant published in the local rag. It could have been taken word for word from one of the many troll posts on any Disqus forum. My first reaction when I saw it was that it had been copied and pasted from a script.

      • terregles2

        If UKIP continues to rise in the polls you had better get used to receiving more abuse and ridicule from the media.
        You will probably receive the same treatment as Alex Salmond and the SNP. Opponents will not take part in civilised debate they will only sneer and mock. Alex Salmond was called everything from the fat controller to Jabba the Hutt people in Scotland just stopped listening. If people will not engage in proper debate just ignore them they would not be doing it if your party was not gaining votes.

  • Denis_Cooper

    “Romanian/Bulgarian immigrants visiting Britain”

    Are you talking about “immigrants” or tourists “visiting”?

    We get loads of Japanese “visiting” as tourists, do you think they should all be classed as “immigrants” even though they leave the country after a few weeks?

    • Blindsideflanker

      I am afraid it is the political corruption of our language that attempts to twist definitions to accommodate their agenda.

  • Richard Eldritch

    It’s a shame really, Labour can pack their ranks with all sorts of loonys and they manage to rumble along, mostly because being of the far left is viewed at worse as excentric, wheres as being of the far right is seen as really beyond the pale. I hope one day that the torys realise that trying to be New Labour but a bit bluey-er was outdated before they came to power. Blairs awfull legacy has discredited the whole concept.

  • Swiss Bob

    UKIP is racist if it has racist policies. It doesn’t.

    People would rightly feel sick if there was a media campaign trying to smear anyone who supports the Labour party as peadophiles but it is with that exact same justification they are smearing all UKIP supporters as racists, who you might like to remember once supported Labour, Conservative etc

    • HookesLaw

      Its Farage who said he would not want to live next to a Romanian and smeared them with false accusations. So why should he complain at anyone commenting on his remarks.

      • @PhilKean1
        • HookesLaw

          I pointed out the errors in these figures yesterday. Fullfact and other sources show that they are bogus.
          The cashpoint story came from one source (based on some unseen ‘intelligence’) who has since left the police and there are no figures available to justify the claim.
          You are feeding your hysteria on lies.

          http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-romanian-crimewave/18207

          https://fullfact.org/factchecks/romanians_cash_machine_crime-29254

          http://ampp3d.mirror.co.uk/2014/05/20/3-problems-with-farages-romanian-crimewave-figures/

          • Colonel Mustard

            I wouldn’t trust Full Fact. It seems to be another “progressive” agenda group asserting its independence but suspiciously composed mainly of people from the Labour party, the Lib Dems, the Media Trust lot and the BBC, no doubt busily engaged in “leading beyond authority”. All these groups, quangos and fake charities seem to originate from or be inspired by the left, have a vision for how UK society should be engineered and produce statistics to support or promote that vision, boasting to the unsuspecting that they are “independent”.

            Channel 4 (not noted for its objective, unbiased stance) seems to regurgitate the Full Fact stuff, which is suspicious by itself.

            Even so the reports contain enough to suggest that there is a bit more to it than hysteria or lies.

            • HookesLaw

              There you go again. Not interested are you. You are simply happy to be manipulated and are so malliable you cannot see it.

              Whatever the ‘bit more’ is then that is what should be discussed. You do not seem remotely aware of the issue – ie grossly inflammatory statements base on ‘hearsay’ and false figures. No attempt at rationality at all.
              Whatever argument there may be over immigration is lost because of the nasty inflammatory kipper statements.

              • Colonel Mustard

                On the contrary I would say I am one of those who is not being manipulated. It wasn’t my idea that our sovereignty should be surrendered to a bunch of foreigners in Brussels, or that England should suddenly be deemed to be multi-cultural without a by your leave of those whose families have been here for centuries and self-identify as the English. Or that anyone turning up from any other country could claim benefits paid for by UK taxpayers or obtain services (including translation services) from the NHS without first contributing to NI. It wasn’t my idea to give away £11bn of borrowed money abroad when the residents here are told they must face ‘austerity’ because of government debt

                I was never asked. So don’t expect me to be happy about it. Some might be but that is up to them.

                • HookesLaw

                  So rather than admit that Farage has been lying to you you launch onto a new tack. The first one of which is wrong when it comes to sovereignty. Norway is not in the EU and it is actually in Schengen. As well as obeying EU rules including movement of labour as part of a ‘free trade agreement’.
                  Countries live by treaties and agreements. We would go to war if Norway was invaded.

                  You profess sanity but are hysteric.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Why is it a “new tack”? It is part and parcel of the same thing. Our sovereignty has been incrementally surrendered to the decisions of unelected foreigners and we haven’t been asked to give consent since 1975. Part of that surrendered sovereignty is an inability to control our borders so that there is no limit to the number of Europeans who can come here, regardless of their motivation and regardless of any consequences for the safety, security and well being of the nation.

                  Somehow, when other nationalities self-identify and flex their self-determination muscles that is accommodated with concessions and devolution. But when the English attempt to do it they are declared to be racist and described as ‘mongrels’.

                  I don’t care about Norway or Schengen. I care about England and the UK. For centuries we never had to ask leave of foreigners to trade or manage our own affairs. Why should we have to now? The Japanese don’t seem to have this self-destructive desire to dissipate their culture and self-identity. Is there a diversity of churches in Saudi Arabia demanding the right to ring their bells on Sundays?

                  And I don’t blame the immigrants for any of this. I blame the government which has failed to protect the heritage bequeathed to it and the home grown radical left who have worked relentlessly to deconstruct and bring chaos to English society.

                • HookesLaw

                  You don’t sound particularly believable to me indeed it all seems a bit whiney. All our trade deals would involve ‘loss of sovereignty’. Heritage bequeathed? Like Marks and Spencer? Founded by Jewish immigrants.
                  If you want to spout a tirade against the left then I am happy to join in but farage’s antics are going to let Labour back in.

                  And for what. Get real, not hysterical.

                  The point is the EU exists and out of the EU like Norway we would have a similar arrangement. Its where we might end up in all but name. It would be quite acceptable to me – but little real difference in EU trade reg terms and labour market terms. The danger we would have is being pressured into Schengen if we left and then had to cut a deal. Thats why its better to negotiate whilst we are still in – and when the Eurozone needs to agree its new terms.

                  I am happy to abide by the results of referendum in 2017 and you are free to vote how you like in it – based on facts and not hysteria generated by a chancer like Farage and his coterie of dubious cronies.

      • Colonel Mustard

        Well, he didn’t quite say that did he? What he actually said was:-

        “I was asked if a group of Romanian men moved in next to you, would you be concerned? And if you lived in London, I think you would be.”

        So you are one to complain about smearing with false accusations. The hysteria around this remark, which is far less prejudicial and more honest than some of Diane Abbott’s utterings, shows just what a problem we have with the ‘racism industry’ here. Are people now not permitted to be concerned or to express fear if those they feel threatened by fall within a specific identity group? Just who are the real victims Hooky?

        • HookesLaw

          wink wink nudge nudge. The facts are that Romanians for instance do not commit more crime than other Londoners. In fact they commit half the crime. So you tell me why Farage should be upset that Romanians live next door.
          His words were a smear. He can smear but reporting his words suddenly themselves become a smear in the warped mind of a Kipper.
          Indeed when called out about it he was forced to apologise – but was he bothered? No, because by bthen he had blown his dog whistle.

          If you want to justify Farage by comparing him to the odious bigoted Abbott then good luck to you. (and of course the press did call out Abbott over her remarks)

          • Colonel Mustard

            “The facts are that Romanians for instance do not commit more crime than other Londoners.”

            Is that true? Can you provide evidence for that? Reports (as linked above) suggest otherwise.

            • HookesLaw

              ‘The Daily Mail claims that “For every 1000 Romanians in
              London, 183 are arrested”. As the number of Romanians arrested is 800, it is supposed that the total Romanian community in London is around 4,300 persons… In fact, there are more than 60,000 people.
              So, in reality, for every 1,000 Romanians in London, only 13 were arrested, which – according to the figures presented by Daily Mail (“26 Britons per 1000 are arrested in London”) – is half of the arrest rate for Britons. ‘
              Needless to say that “arrested” is different from “convicted” or “charged”
              http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-ion-jinga/romania-immigration_b_4451633.html

              I posted and linked on the above and ,more yesterday. And some links on this thread.

              http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-ion-jinga/ukip-romania-immigration_b_5204688.html
              ‘According to data published by the Metropolitan Police, the number of Romanians charged with an offence in London in January 2014 dropped 3%, compared to the same month last year. In many cases Romanians are victim of crimes, with 543 persons in the first three months of 2014. As Don Flynn, director of Migrants Rights Network, told Jessica Elgot from the Huffington Post UK: “the figures contradict the claims made in some sections of the tabloid media that crime figures would rocket. If we take into account an increase in the size of the Bulgarian and Romanian populations in the UK during the course of 2013, then this suggests that crime rates are actually falling rather than growing.”
              ‘At the national level the figures are even more speaking for themselves: in the first three months of 2014 the number of Romanians convicted in the UK was 1522 compared to 1797 in the same period of 2013 (a reduction of 15%).’
              ‘…in Romania, if you are a politician or a civil servant, it is against the law to employ your wife as your secretary, if the job is paid with public money.’

              UKIP are distorting the figures and feeding hatred. You might be comfortable with that but I am not.

              BTW 5 million Brits are living abroad.L ets hope they are being welcomed – even though we know some of them are your typical east end thug.

              • Colonel Mustard

                Er, being charged with an offence is not the same as committing one. It depends on the crime being reported and the perpetrator being caught. Also the sources you are citing have a vested interest in denying the figures.

                The bottom line is that there shouldn’t be any Romanians (or any other foreigners) in the UK committing crimes and if we had control over our own borders and a stronger national identity not being undermined by the colonising left there probably wouldn’t be. Your argument is tantamount to claiming that we should not be concerned a house is on fire because it is only in one room.

                • anyfool

                  You are wasting your time with Hooky, he is coming out with assessed claptrap.
                  There is no statistic gathered in this country now that is not infected with political slants, it is to the detriment of the country, but there would probably riots if unadulterated data was used.
                  When the data for Romanians entering, was in one case based on a survey of five respondents, anything that Hooky says is absolute tosh, it is based on lies and deception.
                  Hearsay and personal experience would be a more robust guide than anything the government produces now.

                • Smithersjones2013

                  Indeed the poor soul has completed lost it. He’s even degraded himself to the point of snuffling around Liberal cesspits such as the Huffpost and the Guardian to prove his ‘facts’. Its so sad to see what has happened to the Tories in their desperate attempts to cling to power

                • HookesLaw

                  Shoot the messenger – believe lies – you condemn yourself out of your own mouths. The facts were based on the Daily Mails figures.

                • Smithersjones2013

                  That’s the same Daily Mail whose editor Paul Dacre described Gordon Brown as a ‘kindred spirit’ who was ‘touched by the mantle of greatness.

                  You really have been taken over by the dark side. Do you know what Stockholm Syndrome is?

                • HookesLaw

                  How many different ways do you have of avoiding the truth?

                  So in the post below Mr Kean is being disreputable quoting 3 Daily Mail scare stories to justify his warped opinions is he?
                  Has he been taken over?
                  How much more stupid can you get?

                  The point of course is the Mail was indeed running an anti immigrant scare story but got caught out on its own figures.

                • Smithersjones2013

                  Oh puhlease. How naive are you? There is no real ‘truth’ only various opinions and beliefs

                  As to Mr Kean’s actions That’s up to him. I don’t speak for him and don’t always agree with him and he doesn’t speak for me. However he doesn’t abuse me or others whose general views and beliefs are similar to mine.

                  Frankly given the squalid quality of the MSM these days (something you have often ranted about) I’m surprised you are now.peddling these views with such verve.

                  You want us to vote for politicians (Tory MP’s) who you repeatedly berate and now you ask us to believe media sources who you variously berate when it suits you.

                  If you ask me what would be really stupid is taking even the slightest notice of anything you said

                • HookesLaw

                  If you believe there is no real truth then you are a pointless entity.

                • Mike

                  Best check your own figures first as they don’t add up.

                • Mike

                  And its proprietor Lord Rothermore who in the 1930′ who backed Adolf & Benito.

                • Mike

                  Since the DM started its smear campaign you can’t trust anything coming out of that cess pit of liars !

                • HookesLaw

                  Hearsay. Well there is you with the finger on the pulse. But when it comes to you nutjobs talking to yourselves you can say anything and make it mean what you want. Heaven forbid a few facts should get in the way. fact are the last things you want.

                • HookesLaw

                  The bottom line is I can justify my comments and you and others cannot. And on a load of dubious data Farage sets forth a dog whistle of hatred and bigotry. You lap it up because you do not have a mind that can think for itself. You cannot see the dangers of all this inflamatory language.

                  One of the biggest groups of foreign nationals in our jails is Irish.
                  The point is – taken from Daily Mail figures – is that Romanians are less criminal than British. Romanian crime is falling (with excellent co-operation with Romanian police) and Romanian numbers are going down. Its you and Farage who is claiming the house is burning down with the wife and kids in it. So cut out the false analagy – thats as bogus as Farage is.

                  If Farage had not set this prejudicial hare running we would not need to talk about it. But Farage is grubbing for votes and you are cheering him on.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  “The bottom line is I can justify my comments and you and others cannot.”

                  Really? I’d just say we had very different views about being conservative. I can see the dangers alright but it isn’t Farage who is peddling them as “business as usual”.

                • HookesLaw

                  The conservative party is a broad church – it needs to be to keep the socialists out.
                  And I have justified my comments.

                • Mike

                  Now you’re having a laugh ! The Tories under Cameron is as socialist as Labour under Blair and the only difference is who funds them for their own self serving benefit.

                  Cameron has his mates in the city & banking whilst Blair had his unions but many in the country are now sick and tired of these unholy alliances and want change.

                • Jen The Blue

                  And I suppose Clegg’s 3 000 000 jobs at risk isn’t “dubious data”?

                  As I understand it, the arguments against immigration are that Britain (specifically England) is a crowded country and that mass immigration from alien cultures causes unease and tensions which we can and should do without.

                  That isn’t bigotted and neither is it a hatred of foreigners.

              • Mike

                To quote your own figures from two previous posts –

                60,000 Romanians living in London commit 50% of the crimes in the capital. Londons population is 8 million making the crime rate extremely disproportionate amongst Romanians. ‘

                Your figures, not mine !

          • Mike

            I think you dug yourself a big hole on that stat.

            If as you say, Romanians commit half the crimes in London, as a proportion of the population of London, there should be 4 million Romanians living in London if they were no more criminally minded than other groups.

            Are there 4 million Romanians living in London or do they all commute daily from Romania !

      • Swiss Bob

        There you go again.

        The Tory party was outraged by Labour’s smear operation against them but here you are doing the exact same thing.

        You should be ashamed of yourself.

      • helicoil

        -so did the Romanian woman on Jon Snow’s show -is she a racist too? I would dearly like to know because when I grew up racism was all about, well, you know -race not countries.

        • Alexsandr

          its a trait of the left, to reinvent language to suit their hysteria. so not liking foreigners is racism (no its not, its xenophobia) and not liking homosexuals is a phobia (no it isn’t. a phobia isn’t not liking something). and not liking the violence of some religions is a phobia -no ts not, its a justified fear. a phobia is things like being scared of spiders in the bath, something thats irrational to fear.

      • Smithersjones2013

        How can a Caucasian and nominally a European (‘We’re all Europeans now ~ just ask Brussels) saying he doesn’t want to live next to a fellow Caucasian and European equate to racism? After all assuming you are a Caucasian I assume just about every other Caucasian on here would not want to be your neighbour! Would that be racism too?

        Furthermore, how can you be Xenophobic’, when comparing and choosing between two foreign alternatives? I’ve always viewed xenophobia as not discriminating between types of foreigners its just a blanket fear of foreigners.

        So basically the smear is the slovenly use of perjorative labels by dim-witted nasty minded politicians and journalists and their empty headed hysterical groupies.

        Farage is guiilty of discrimination but far less so than those who peddle the despicable lie that is ‘positive’ discrimination (no discrimination is positive). After all from what I understand he is talking about personal feelings not party policy

        • HookesLaw

          You do not want to believe the facts and Farage can say what he likes as far as you are concerned.

          • Smithersjones2013

            No, I reject your sick twisted deranged interpretation of the facts….

            • HookesLaw

              There is no need for interpretation. You are the sick and twisted one. You prove it by denying the facts.

    • Kitty MLB

      Maybe UKIP are being very savvy, by making their EU campaign just about
      immigration instead of other issues such as business etc. Knowing that they
      will be accused of racism by the ‘ establishment’ and knowing others will
      come to their defence.

      • The_Missing_Think

        You like British people being controlled by non-British ‘commissioners’ then… yes or no?

        • Alexsandr

          you should have put ‘unelected’ between British and commissioners.

          • Wessex Man

            We’ve only got one now to accommodate all the new accession countries and that one, dear Cath has brought us very near, hopefully not, to war with Russia by trying to get the Uhraine into the EU.

          • The_Missing_Think

            No, because I don’t want to dilute, the question I’m asking.

  • Kitty MLB

    Tory and Labour voters are as different as chalk and cheese- And UKIP using the words Con/Lib/Lab to link them is somewhat amateurish and foolish and it makes people defend their own parties despite leadership.
    UKIP are closer to the Conservative voters in terms education etc etc and yet
    because of excessive immigration especially from middle eastern countries Labour
    voters feel closer to UKIP as these people generally have a detrimental effect on
    the lives of Labour voters. And disgracefully their own Labour Party MP’s disagree.
    A lot of Conservatives will vote for UKIP in the EU elections because of the way
    Nigel Farage handles Brussels and they will vote fore their own party in the general
    election next year. No idea what Labour voters will do.

    • HookesLaw

      The conservatives offer a referendum. Labour do not. Labour are socialists UKIP say nthey are not. So quite how UKIP can accomodate supposed labour supporters must be a mystery..
      Well its not really. UKIPs apeal to possible Labour voters is their racism. Its not the EU its not social matters its not economics. A while back labour faced an attack in their seats from the BNP. That was faced down because the BNP are a bunch of fascists. Meanwhile UKIP are making being bigoted and intolerant respectable by blowing out suitable dog whistles..

      • Blindsideflanker

        Mrs T attracted a lot of Labour voting white van men to the Conservative cause. So why shouldn’t another political party attract support from Labour?.

      • Kitty MLB

        Are you aware that whenever you use the word ‘ racist’ you are falling
        into a trap.

        • HookesLaw

          UKIP spokesman members and candidates say what they say. Most of it is pretty despicable and has nothing to do with economics and the EU. You tell me what it is UKIP are peddling.

          BTW – its the article above which is mentioning Bulgarians and Romanians. Why? You tell me what is the aspersion thrown against them by Kippers?

          • Kitty MLB

            Hooky, all parties want to win. Immigration is a highly emotive
            subject and the one UKIP chose for their EU election campaign. If you called me a racist, which isn’t nice others will instantly come to my defence and will say they will support me.
            Oh wake up and smell the coffee.

            • Wessex Man

              He drinks too much now, coffee, I mean phew, he could have started calling me a Hookist there for a second!

      • Blindsideflanker

        Is it racist to demand your rights under the UN’s Universal Declarations of Human Rights Article 15(1) Everybody has a right to a nationality?

        • HookesLaw

          Are you totally dim/ Do you really believe what you are saying. no one is taking away my right to a nationality.

          • Blindsideflanker

            Ah the personal abuse, must be hookesLaw.

            The EU wants to make Europe a place of regions not nations.

            To be a nation is to be sovereign, we are no longer that.

            And mass immigration seeks to destroy the concept of a nationality.

            So who is dim?

            • Conway

              The EU parliament building has on its walls a quote calling national sovereignty “evil” and saying the only cure is a federation of the peoples. I don’t want to be part of a region in a USE and I expect to have a say on it and not have it imposed on me.

          • Colonel Mustard

            Er, British law has conflated nationality and citizenship with race in order to define racism but at the same time refused to define ‘indigenous peoples’ as that term relates to the UN Declaration. For people who self-identify as English that combination is a very clear contravention of the articles of the Declaration. Most government forms recording ethnicity have a category of ‘white British’ but no single category of English.

            The concept of English nationality has clearly been a problem for the UK government with plenty of empirical evidence that it is conflated with racism and therefore undesirable or ‘inappropriate’. And yet at the same time other self-identified nationalisms in the UK have been promoted and pandered to through devolution. The English have never had a chance to come to terms naturally with the increased multi-ethnicity of the country (they have actually been tolerant to diverse ethnicity and a multi-ethnic rule of law going back to the 18th Century at least) because the vested interest race industry (mainly on the left) has operated from the outset on the basis of a government sponsored dictating, imposing and coercing of those terms. Much of the imperative for exaggerating the extent of racism in the UK in order to justify draconian solutions to the ‘problem’ was the same as that for imposing the mass immigration to ‘rub the right’s nose in diversity’. It stemmed from the radical, subversive left and was simply a useful, emotive tool for deconstructing Britain.

            The UN Declaration makes it clear that forced assimilation is a contravention of the articles and that governments should put in place measures to protect the self identity of indigenous peoples. Not only has the UK government failed to do that but it has actively colluded with those who even deny that the English exist and/or refer to them as ‘mongrels’ or a ‘mongrel nation’.

            • Blindsideflanker

              Just in case dim old HookesLaw hasn’t read the relevant UN declaration……..

              Article 7 – Indigenous peoples have the collective and individual right not to be subjected to ethnocide and cultural genocide, including prevention of and redress for:

              (a) Any action which has the aim or effect of depriving them of their integrity as distinct peoples, or of their cultural values or ethnic identities;

              (b) Any action which has the aim or effect of dispossessing them of their lands, territories or resources;

              (c) Any form of population transfer which has the aim or effect of violating or undermining any of their rights;

              (d) Any form of assimilation or integration by other cultures or ways of life imposed on them by legislative, administrative or other measures;

              (e) Any form of propaganda directed against them

            • Wessex Man

              Really Colonel, it’s Hooky you are giving a reply here to, you should know by now that he is as fanatical to the Tory party as any mad m***** is to bo****** us out of existance!

              • Colonel Mustard

                Well ok, but he is not like any Tory I recognise! It surprises me just how much socialist guff seems to have found its way unchallenged into that party and how badly “official” Tories seem to be at presenting any kind of viable alternative and challenging narrative to the lies of the left. It is as though the public narrative has surrendered to Labour party ideology when a good third of the actual population haven’t.

                • Wessex Man

                  Well they’ve had years of practise, all these years of calling themselves the nasty party that must be purged to be electable. That turned out to be another fine idea didn’t it.

      • Denis_Cooper

        Cameron “offers” an “in-out” referendum after a renegotiation which he already knows will be unsuccessful according to the criteria he himself has set out, when he will nevertheless campaign on the “in” side no matter that he has achieved nothing of any significance. Just like Wilson in 1975 with his “Britain’s New Deal in Europe”. Wilson was a shyster, and so is Cameron.

      • Frank

        I don’t know why you don’t understand it? It is quite simple, Dave can promise what he wants (including a referendum), nobody believes him. There, do you now get it?
        There is then the matter of the interview Dave gave (to Der Spiegel ? could have been another foreign newspaper) in which he said that no matter how Britain voted, he (David Cameron) was not going to give notice to quit the EU.
        As for the point about immigration, it is a matter of sovereignty. This may not matter to you, but it does to lots of people. You can call it racist to object to uncontrolled immigration, but doing that just demeans you.

        • Conway

          It was El Pais – Dave said, when asked if he would take us out, ‘no me gustaria’ (I wouldn’t want to).

      • keith

        were all those Essex voters in Harlow, Basildon etc, who had elected Labour MPs for years Socialist before switching when Maggie came along, how did the Tory Party accommodate them and they have now in most places gone back to Labour, you love a generalisations Hooky

        • HookesLaw

          Well people do switch – they are floating voters. Which brings us to the point about all great political parties being coalitions. Such coalitions form around the electoral platforms of the parties. How a supporter of a left wing party switches to supporting an extreme right wing party is an interesting question.

          What seems daft and dangerous is splitting the right wing vote and letting in a europhile labour govt. But then increasingly its clear Kippers are not bothered about Europe any more.

      • global city

        What a stupid point!

        Most people who vote Labour are not socialist…. a fair proportion of them are aspirational, a desire for which UKIP have solutions. Your cod student political analysis and bigotry is amusing, quite amusing.

    • Raddiy

      Kitty you are as out of touch with your thinking and analysis, as your party is!!

      • Kitty MLB

        Oh come on Raddy. I am hugely supportive of Nigel Farage, but he’s
        hardly ready to form a government in a years time, you have said yourself it takes time. They need to grow, win seats and win small battles before the war, and you have to chose your battles wisely.
        You will win the EU elections, which considering the opposition, its a easy win and UKIP are the best at handling the EU.
        I personally have no issue with a Conservative/ UKIP coalition.
        But if you can go it alone next year, then I apologise. And if I criticize UKIP
        its because political parties need it, even if they employ people who
        always agree with them.

        • Raddiy

          ” UKIP are closer to the Conservative voters in terms education etc etc and yet because of excessive immigration especially from middle eastern countries Labour voters feel closer to UKIP as these people generally have a detrimental effect on the lives of Labour voters.”

          Kitty
          I was simply commenting on this point you made. This argument is simply the media narrative, based on the post 2010 events, and is in direct conflict with the conclusions arrived at in the analysis carried out in the recently published ‘ Revolt of the Right ‘

          You live in the deepest Conservative southwest, I live in the middle of the Labour heartlands. I have campaigned and watched the slow growth of UKIP support amongst the old working class for 20 years. You have watched a lot of disgrunted Tories lose faith in your party over the last few years.

          Yes UKIP was set up by generally Conservative minded people, but has always had a solid backbone of working class support that is now growing apace.

          Go to any UKIP public meeting which recently attracted audiences of 1000+ people all over the country, and you would not feel like you were in any shape or form in a Conservative party. We are not the Conservative party MK2, never have been, and as each month passes our demographic increasingly represents all ellements of society, and that is how it should be.

          • Kitty MLB

            Oh I am sorry dear, Raddy, I muddled my words and they all
            came out wrong. I know your not Conservative MK 2 or Labour
            MK 2, you have your own identity. And I know A lot of working
            class areas of London who will be voting for UKIP who have
            never voted before, or have not done so for a long while. And
            indeed disgruntled Tories ( you should avoid them a grumpy bunch) never meant any offence old chap.

            • Wessex Man

              Kitty, you are too polite sometimes, Raddiy and myself don’t care if you want to be rude to us just do it.

              The fact that Ukip comes from right across the political landscape. Our UKip Public Meeting in Chippenham filled the Neeld Hall there to overflowing and we picked up loads of new members after the meeting. The Liberal Democrat Public Meeting in the same Hall, attracted four dozen people to hear Sir Graham Watson, the only lib/dem MEP in the South West currently, hopefully soon to be gone, talk a load of rubbish and erupt when he realise that there were sixteen of we UKip members in that four dozen.

              He was at that time, Sir Graham Watson, now after being attacked by ‘Republic’ of which he was apparantly a member, in The Western Daily Press has now reverted back to plain old Graham Watson in his Euro Election blurb, ah! Liberal Democrat principles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

              This in a west country town that was famous for it’s Westinghouse Railway Works and dozens of other major manufacturing centres that has voted Liberal and then Liberal Democrat for decades

              • Johnnywas

                Neeld Hall in Chippenham is a 200 seat venue, admittedly with a fair bit of space around the sides for seated talks, but still at best about the same size as the local Weatherspoons. So filled to overflowing seen in context isn’t the major triumph seen here. Especially when you realise the meeting was organised by the Bath & Somerset branch and comprised people from Bath & Somerset AND Wiltshire.

                Local branch meetings take place in a country pub, just outside Chippenham.

                I bet UKIP members and supporters tell great fishing stories.

            • Raddiy

              Nothing to be sorry about KItty, just keeping you up to speed on Kippering .

              A Kipper, is a Kipper, is a Kipper, whether it is smoked in Craster, Loch Fyne or Yarmouth, or whether it ends up as a bog standard breakfast kipper, a red herring, a buckling, a bloater, or a Solomon Grundy.

              They all start of as the humble herring, and our Kippers start of as the humble patriotic Brit.

  • altsegel

    Ukip is part of move to redefine the right and move away from the politically correct nostrums that have constricted political and social debate for a generation. How do we preserve and expand freedom of discussion, speech, faith and family? Does Europe help this? Is Iz-lam really compatible with the civil rights and practices we take for granted? How far should the state intrude onthe lives of us, Her Majesty’s subjects? How has it come to pass that weare barely ably to discuss subjects like global waning and homosexuality in public? A UKIP victory on Thursday will tell all the other parties that the game is up. The sanctimonious political discourse of the last millennia is done, found wanting, ready for ribald and bare knuckle dissection. .

    • HookesLaw

      A good list of your typical UKIP bigotries.

      • Colonel Mustard

        Not bigotries. The suppression of debate has done untold damage to the traditional freedoms of the British. This is the backlash. Those who have made careers from suppressing concerns and fears and manipulating our language are to blame for this inevitable outcome.

      • altsegel

        You rather prove my point – bigotry is the one consistent property of the secular left

      • Wessex Man

        Come on hooky babe why have you not commented on the ex Tory Mayor of Swindon using truly dsigusting vile language about disabled people, or you share his views you old Tory bigot you!

      • Tom Allalone

        It’s a list of questions. The fact that you define the asking of questions as bigotry tells us a lot about the state of intellectual freedom in this country. You are basically saying there are some topics that must not even be discussed.

      • keith

        hooky you still at it, but still not answered my questions from last month, but lets try another one is Dominic Grieve racist for saying Pakistani men were more likely to be involved in electoral fraud because of their cultural background, isn’t he the Attorney General and a leading light in that great party of yours

  • ButcombeMan

    Pickles does not “have a point”.

    It was just Pickles trying to be smarter and more subtle in slagging of those inclined to support UKIP.

    All of this attacking of UKIP supporters is self-defeating.

    It started with Cameron, as politically inept as anyone could possibly be. If you want to attract those voters back, do not treat them with contempt, rather attempt, but convincingly, to address their concerns.

  • Holly

    Maybe if countries in the EU were not given a ‘get out of jail free’ card by allowing their people to go elsewhere, so they can reckon, that’s X number less to have to worry about finding decent work, housing etc, they would have to develop their respective countries better, before letting them move around other EU countries who are doing a teeny bit better for their population.

    • HookesLaw

      They were not given a get out of jail free card. There was a long transition period which Labour ignored, thus making the UK the only destination available for New accession countries. Recent figures showed numbers of Romanians in UK had fallen.
      Its in our interest to see these countries grow and prosper as they are markets for our goods. And the economic migrants will return. The last figures showed 9 out of 10 new jobs going to British workers.
      If Farage has his way he will be exporting our car industy to places like Bulgaria.

      • Denis_Cooper

        “Recent figures showed numbers of Romanians in UK had fallen.”

        Have you read this note on the ONS report, which has itself been shown to be unreliable even for its stated purpose?

        “The estimates shown in this table relate to the number of people in
        employment and should not be used as a proxy for flows of foreign migrants into the UK.”

        • Frank

          I wouldn’t bother, that kind of guidance is ignored by the Tories, Labour and Lib-Dems as they just want to crow that Farage got it wrong and the numbers of Romanians fell.

      • keith

        hooky the ONS figures trumpeted by your establishment friends were comparing the first three months of this year and comparing them against the total of Romanians in the country, even you should be able to see three months against twelve is not a good analyses, perhaps you might want to see that the Romanians are the biggest percentage of the new self employed, nothing to do with getting around the new benefit regulations I’m sure, self employed can claim after a week of being here and the figures to look out for will be the new national insurance numbers issued in the last year that come out this week, then you will see some real numbers, not those spurious figures you like to quote

        • Conway

          Self employed selling the Big Issue.

          • keith

            there are now more self employed Romanians in this country than there are in Romania, according to IPPC

      • global city

        Paul Nuttal said just that the other week, but he was condemned as a bigot for saying so.

        By the way, Clegg has just tried to pull the patriot stuff again.

  • CharlietheChump

    What a surprise. Right and left don’t agree.

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