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The Sunday Herald says ‘yes’ to Scottish independence. Which newspaper will be next?

4 May 2014

11:44 AM

4 May 2014

11:44 AM

If you are going to declare a clear political affiliation, you might as well do it big. In cricketing terms, if you are going to slash at the ball, slash hard — and that is exactly what the Sunday Herald has done this morning. ‘Sunday Herald says Yes,’ is the front page headline above an illustration by artist and Nationalist Alasdair Gray.

Page one is the declaration and page three is the explanation. The whole of page three is devoted to an editorial setting out the reasons for the Sunday Herald’s decision to come out for the Nats. It is a pretty good and well-argued exposition of the Yes case, acknowledging the potential problems of independence but concluding that the referendum is ‘the chance to remake our society in a more equal, inclusive, open and just way’.

The editorial also insists: ‘We state our opinion not in an attempt to persuade our readers.’ That is probably true. What the Sunday Herald is undoubtedly aware that many unionist readers will not be persuaded of its arguments and may actually quit the paper as a result of today’s move. So this is actually quite a canny appeal to the readers of other papers who believe passionately in independence to switch over to the Sunday Herald.

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For some time, there has been a gap in the market in Scotland. Most of the newspapers are firmly unionist. Some – like the Scottish Daily Mail – have already made it clear where they stand by declaring their full and unequivocal support for the Union. Others, like The Daily Telegraph and The Times in Scotland appear more to have a unionist bent while not explicitly endorsing the No camp – at least not yet. As a result, the perceived bias of the Scottish media towards the No camp has been eating away at senior Nationalists for a while.

Always ready for a conspiracy theory, there are many Nationalists who use their anger at the ‘unionist press’ to justify their failure to take a lead in the polls or convince enough Scots to support independence. And it these Nationalists that the Sunday Herald is now pitching itself to. There is a big constituency out there and the Sunday Herald will hope to attract readers from other, more unionist, Sunday titles as a result.

But the one big question which remains, following the Sunday Herald’s Yes Scotland endorsement, is whether any other papers will do the same. It is possible that some may do so. The Herald (the Sunday Herald’s daily counterpart) may declare for independence but, if it does, it will not do so until much closer to the referendum and only if the editors believe the paper has something to be gained from doing so.

It is a similar position at The Sun in Scotland which famously declared its support for the SNP at the last Scottish elections. If the referendum campaign heads decisively in the Nats’ favour in the final couple of weeks then The Sun may see that as a bandwagon it wants to join but it will almost certainly not make that decision until it absolutely has to. At the moment, then, there is just one newspaper in Scotland committed to a Yes vote: The Sunday Herald but whether it is destined to plough a loan furrow from now until September 18 remains to be seen.

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Show comments
  • Charlie Berlin

    As a European foreigner I say :
    Get Your indepedance , or You will end up with the Euro currency paying for bankers mistakes in eastern and southern European countries !
    Even small countries can be independent ; like Switzerland .
    The Scotts I have met , are hard working , honest people , who can stand on their own two feet !
    Good luck Scottland , I will be glad to change money , when I come as a tourist to visit Your great country !

  • John Feury

    Independence would mean no credibility for the Scottish pound abroad, this would be a real uphill battle. Re : Oil, According to a scientist it will last around twenty five years not forty, so that’s going nowhere. And what about the huge tax increase to pay for Independence, the list goes on. It won’t be the way Salmon says it will be. To cap it all no more commonwealth games. Seems to me Independence means, Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

  • Charles Christensen

    This will be the first time that the people of Scotland will get a vote for the future of the people of Scotland so lets not waste any votes .
    I would like to wake up on 19 September 2014 knowing that we were free to make our own way in this world and make friends with who we think we’re nice people not to be the richest country but the happiest .

  • Brian W Marshall

    The EU. I voted against it first time round and if there was a referendum tomorrow I’d vote against it again. I’ve seen nothing in the last 40 years to make me regret that decision.

  • William Haworth

    Maybe the Union was just an 300-year aberration in the 1500 year history of rivalry and war between Scotland and England. It’s just a shame that no-one seems to be saying what great things we could accomplish if we stayed together. It’s as though our politicians think that planning for next week makes them great long-term thinkers.

  • Doggie Roussel

    All that ever comes from Scotland is the clenched fist of grievance or the outstretched palm for another subsidy…

    • Richard Ferguson

      If you are going to nick lines from Leo McKinstry – and adapt them for other places – please at least have the decency to attribute them.

      • Doggie Roussel

        I have previously acknowledged to Leo McKinstry, personally, the provenance of his original comment on Northern Ireland… so, you nit-picking, chippy little nerd, I suggest that you go and stick your head up a dead bear’s bum…

  • Doggie Roussel

    As an example of the Scots’ economic genius, the building of their wee pretendy parliament (Billy Connolly) was initially budgeted at £ 4-10 million …. the final cost… over £ 400,000,000…

    And who paid for over 90% of this… you guessed it…. the English taxpayer….

  • Rory Hamilton

    I discuss how a revealing week in the media impacts on the independence question http://rorycshamilton.blogspot.co.uk

  • Hexhamgeezer

    Aa din’nae why but vote Aye sez Northumberland

  • Conway

    I wonder which newspaper will come out for UK independence?

  • swatnan

    Trust the Morning Star. There are a lot of communists and hard Left in Scotland.
    Could see the revival of the CP in Scotland as the 3rd largest Party.

  • dougthedug

    Only one sunday newspaper out of all the press, radio and TV stations in Scotland supports independence and it gets an article in the Spectator because it’s so unusual.

    the perceived bias of the Scottish media towards the No camp

    “Perceived”? Aye right.

  • Jonathan Burns

    The Sun will no doubt wait to see who is winning before supporting Yes or No.

  • dougthedug

    At the moment, then, there is just one newspaper in Scotland committed to a Yes vote: The Sunday Herald but whether it is destined to plough a loan lone furrow from now until September 18 remains to be seen.

  • dougthedug

    Others, like The Daily Telegraph and The Times in Scotland appear more to have a unionist bent while not explicitly endorsing the No camp – at least not yet.

    You’re declaring that there is still doubt about the allegiance of the Telegraph and the Times to the No camp?

    Hamish, you card, that is the funniest spoof line I’ve seen in the Spectator to date.

  • Jonathan Burns

    Well seeing as the Sunday Herald only has circulation around 23,000 it probably needs the backing of Nationalist Nutters to keep its circulation stable.

    • Sam Mitchell

      what a bitter …or should that be better… little reply…. why is someone a nutter in Scotland when Brit Nats….. are as you have clearly pointed out…. such voices of reason and fairness???

      • Jonathan Burns

        If it wasn’t for the delusion that oil was going to solve all your problems, Salmond wouldn’t have given up the day job.

        • Sam Mitchell

          Oil… Fishing… Renewables… Forestry… Agriculture…. Tourism… Whisky… all the vat revenue from branch operations in Scotland… all the TAX from same… including those companies who trade in the UK.. pay no tax… but hope to trade in Scotland where they will find some new and very interesting rules … and if they do not want to play here anymore… well what an opportunity for Scots entrepreneurs…… so… afraid you are a little out in your thinking…

        • Sam Mitchell

          Oh… we can forget about the whisky income… fishing.. agriculture… renewables… the export of 25% of our energy resources south of Carlisle…etc those parts of Scotlands profits that are reported in the london HQ of companies that for the moment have branch outlets in Scotland…. so… the 1.25 TRILLION of oil money at todays prices… is not of any value to HMT.??? face up and deal with it…

    • terregles2

      Is anyone who wants to have their country governed by the people who live in it a nutter?
      If passing the government of your country to the larger country next door was a good idea I think more smaller countries would choose to do that.

      • Jonathan Burns

        It is okay for Cybernats to brand No supporters traitors and Quislings but when they get a taste of their own medicine they don’t like it up them.

        • terregles2

          Jonathan don’t curse the darkness light a candle.
          Most people who wish independence are reasonable people who love their children and pay their taxes.

          When you bluster in and state that ” they don’t like it up them” you seem to be doing what you accuse them of.
          I am a YES voter but I respect the opinion of anyone voting NO. I am sure we all believe we are choosing what is best for Scotland.No need to be so rude and aggressive.

          • allymax bruce

            “don’t curse the darkness light a candle.”

            You should be given an accolade for your poetry on this article. I’m impressed.

            • terregles2

              Unfortunately I cannot claim that quote. I think it is biblical or some proverb.
              It is very apt though especially for this forum…

          • Doggie Roussel

            Still simpering away, you old bat…

  • Malcolm McCandless

    Let’s see, who in the media is supporting the No camp?

    Daily Record, Sunday Mail, Dundee Courier, Press & Journal, Sunday Post, The Scotsman, Scotland on Sunday, Daily Mail, Mail on Sunday, Daily Express, Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, The Independent, The Spectator, The Times, Private Eye, ITV News, Channel 4 News …….. and not forgetting the BBC, yes we must not forget the good old impartial Beeb.

    Who are sitting on the fence?

    The Herald, The Sun and the STV.

    So the Sunday Herald has certainly stuck its neck out. The payback will be an immediate increase in sales as the Sunday Herald will become the newspaper of choice for those who support independence.

    There is not much profit being in the No camp.

  • Ian McKellar

    Puzzled though the article fails to mention the Daily Record which after the Sun has the largest circulation. Part of Mirror group, since the War it has always backed the Labour Party

  • Grey Wolf

    Higher truths in civilisations have been emotional truths, not rational. Tribes and nations have arisen and fallen and have been subsumed in or separated from another through history.

    But what I find in the Scottish independence debate is way too much focus on mercantilism and book-keeping. Is the birth of a sovereign nation a matter of a few hundred bucks per capita here or there?

    • terregles2

      Indeed some people seem to know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

      • Inverted Meniscus

        And the award for fatuous platitude of the year goes to you. As you are taking such a high minded attitude you couldn’t possibly seek to offload the cost of Scottish independence onto those who do not get to vote in the matter. Cue: ” why do you wish to harm Scotland and the rest of the drearily predictable rubbish.

      • allymax bruce

        OOOOH!
        That was a good one!
        Kudos.

      • Doggie Roussel

        Oscar Wilde, I believe… who also claimed that There is no sin except stupidity…

    • Inverted Meniscus

      Fine then you and your fellow Scots can find the ‘few hundred bucks’. I mean, I cannot believe somebody so high minded and principled as yourself wishing to pass those costs onto people who will not have a say in the independence referendum. Or is that one of the “higher truths” that will be studiously ignored. Sanctimonious rubbish.

      • Grey Wolf

        Clearly, your fevered mind cannot interpret things correctly.

        Fyi, I am not Scottish, I wish our Scottish brethren would choose to stay with us and, finally, what I have stated above is critical of the independence debate / discussion that one hears on pop media.

        • Inverted Meniscus

          More sanctimonious rubbish. I am perfectly happy for the Scots to vote as they see fit. I have, however, no intention of meeting the costs accruing from that choice when I have not been given the opportunity to exercise my democratic rights.

          • Grey Wolf

            Idiot, I have no interest in knowing what you are or are not happy with. Get thee gone!

            • Inverted Meniscus

              I suspect I am far better educated than a sanctimonious moron like yourself. Now get lost.

              • Grey Wolf

                Blowing your own trumpet, hung up on a single word ‘sanctimonious’ and nursing the obsessive need to have the last word in every exchange – you are a witless dolt.

                PS – If you do wish to continue this exchange, rather pointless now, I am game. Bring it on. I have all the time today.

  • John Sutton

    most of England backs Scottish independence as well -the sooner the better!

    • terregles2

      I agree John. Many of my friends in England tell me that Scotland would be mad not to escape from the incompetent Westminster political chancers. They say that they wish they could vote to escape as well.
      Hopefully after Scottish independence all of the English electorate will put pressure on Westminster and give them the shake up that the political system needs.
      Everyone in the UK deserves so much better than the politicians that we have in Westminster at the moment. truly dreadful.

      • Wessex Man

        You don’t see terregles how you wind up any English Ubions left here with the extra soundbite you always have to add. It’s water off a duck’s back to me as I want Scotland to go as well as Wales and NI. A radical English view but still valid. The incometent corrupt Westminster is not Westminsters fault but the people who ply their trade there which includes all Scottish, Welsh and NI MPs and lobbyists and researchers.

        The English base of this out of date UK Government is most certainly not the fault of the English people.

        You sometimes make very good case by saying less.

        • terregles2

          I really could not agree with you more. I think Westminster is totally discredited. The Westminster parliament is made up of politicians from Scotland, England Northern Ireland and Wales. When I find fault with Westminster is it not obvious that I am including all four countries ?
          Westminster is a UK government I am really at a loss to know how criticism of Westminster can ever be interpreted as criticism of English politicians only.

          • Doggie Roussel

            The poison of Low Scotch malice… Paul Johnson, the Spectator 2nd September 2000…

      • Doggie Roussel

        More simpering, patronising smugness from the oracle of the North… do you have an inexhaustible supply of platitudes to inflict upon us ?

        I truly hope that there is a Yes vote… but I fear it is extremely unlikely.

        In the event of independence it is going to be a tantalising prospect to see the Scots funding: their own defence forces, inland revenue, Defra, justice system, health service, border authorities…. the list is endless… you are going to make Mongolia look like the land of milk and honey.

        The best bit is that, should it happen, we will be shot of over 50 Marxist MPs in Westminster.

  • GordonMcDonell

    I’m Scottish and intend to vote No for fairly pragmatic reasons. However one thing I do hope in this development is that the Sunday Herald might become the focal point of the Yes campaign rather than the completely amateurish (and vaguely unpleasant) style of campaigning we’ve seen at the likes of Wings Over Scotland – a popular nationalist blog, for those who aren’t aware of it.

    Whether you like the Sunday Herald or not, it is at least committed to basic journalistic standards. Wings Over Scotland on the other hand is a kind of vehicle for ad-hominem attacks against anyone who sticks their head up on the No side, conspiracy theory gibberish about the entirety of society being biased against independence, and cod analysis that has all the hallmarks of a bad undergraduate essay.

    • asalord
      • GordonMcDonell

        …?

        • Inverted Meniscus

          Ignore him. Just a barking mad cybernat.

          • Sam Mitchell

            Is that a Brit Nat cybernat?

            • Inverted Meniscus

              So why does Salmond want a currency union?

              • Sam Mitchell

                A.S. has thought this out…. he has had years of thinking this through…. he has had the efforts of TWO nobel laureates to assist him… along with some really sharp political brains….. so I can not answer it…. I can answer that the mixture of EU countries that are in a C.U. all seem to manage in one way or the other…. please do not start banging on about Greece…. we all know that was an accident waiting to happen…. and the Germans simply bailed out their own banks who had the loan papers associated with that…. BUT… if we were to deal in Turnips… I wouldn’t care….. BUT… A.S. has to keep some of the less patriotic onboard…. monarchy… friendship…. nato… etc… so… whether you disagree with his motives or not…. he is head and shoulders above anyone at westminster…. head & shoulders…

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Gibberish. Learn to write in complete sentences, avoid ridiculous ad hominem attacks and people might engage seriously with you.

                • Sam Mitchell

                  Oh… your so conventional…. loosen up sailor…. this is not serious…. YOU do not have a vote…. you are not an undecided who needs to have all of it explained in factual detail…. you are simply another Brit Nat who openly displays his dislike of Scots & Scotland…. BUT… who will not write to his MP telling him what you want… instead you try in your best vocabulary and written english to keep the UK dream alive… by posting on favourable sites… the Spectator is hardly radical!!!…

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  I am not a nationalist of any sort. I do have an interest in the break up of the UK as it currently stands because I do not want to pay the associated costs. I do not hate Scotland or its people but am entirely indifferent to both. You are an irrelevance.

    • Theuniondivvie

      For something amateurish, rabble-rousing and ‘undergraduate’, you seem overly concerned about the mere existence of Wings Over Scotland. Perhaps as a confirmed No voter you should be concerning yourself with the online discourse that your side is engaged in rather than a site that you suggest is turning people away from independence (nice anecdote btw). After all the polling lead about which you appear to be so complacent has halved in 8 months.

    • Sam Mitchell

      This is what the majority of Scots do not understand of your position…. which means that you are open to ridicule…. whether you like or dislike the messenger…. it is the message…. it is the fact that of the UK government… there is only ONE member of that governments party in Scotland…. so… does the remainder of all those Scots who did not vote for this lamb… was their vote a complete waste of effort… can you name me one other country in this world where this form of democracy exists?… can you point me in the direction of any country where living standards have decreased since the finding of OIL and its revenue flow??….

      • terregles2

        Scotland is the only country in the world to discover oil and became poorer.
        Squandered by the incompetent Westminster politicians for over thirty years.

        • Richard Ferguson

          Er…how do you work that one out? Go on, please explain how Scotland got poorer between the 1960s and now?

          • terregles2

            I didn’t work it out Richard. I am only repeating what the Westminster and Bettertogether campaigners have told me.
            They said that Scotland has always been subsidised by English taxpayers and really is a bit of an economic failure as a country.
            I must admit I was a bit puzzled as I have only ever heard of countries who found oil becoming really prosperous.
            It would seem that Scotland is unique. It discovered oil and remained a poor country that could only survive by Westminster handouts.. You would need to ask a Westminster politician to explain the reasons for that. I am only repeating what I have been told.

            • Richard Ferguson

              Scotland’s GDP per capita – adjusted for inflation – rose approximately 2.5 times between 1969 when offshore oil was first discovered and 2012.

              • Doggie Roussel

                You are banging your head against a brick wall, Fergie… the Scots aren’t noted for their high IQs…

                • Richard Ferguson

                  Not even worthy of a response.

        • Doggie Roussel

          Scotland didn’t discover oil… multi-national companies did and Westminster decreed that the operations should be based in the economically destitute Aberdeen… rather than from, say Tyneside.

          Most of the oil deposits are in international waters.

  • Tamas Marcuis

    The media has been exclusively supporting the NO campaign. Consequently the NO campaign has been getting away with outrageous lies. There has been a complete lack of any scrutiny of any statements from the government or the source of what has been declared unbiased opinions or information.

    Some of the worst have been the claims that child mortality would skyrocket and people would die without the NHS. The fact that the Scottish NHS has always since it was setup 2 years before the English & Welsh NHS been a seperate organisation was completely ignored. English people continuously comment on all the money supposedly going to Scotland when the UK governments own figures show its Scotland that pays money into England and that’s excluding North Sea revenues. The media has allowed a completely false view of the relationship between Scotland and Westminster. The facts are simply not presented to the English public but instead a fantasy tale is spun that allows many to stroke their egos and sneer at “whining Scots”. Claims and statements are regularly printed and broadcast that could not be repeated if the word “Scots” or “Scottish” was taken out and replaced by “blacks” or “Pakistaniis”.

    The result is now that many people in Scotland don’t believe this referendum has been fair and democratic. They believe that the UK Government has sunk to voter intimidation and campaign fraud particularly in the use of the BBC. The BBC has been revealed as having actively publicising a Conservative fake grassroots (astro turf) campaign group for the NO side which has no such organisation. Not only where all those involved connected to the Government they also hired a PR company that went on to hire actors and musicians as supposed members. It is not even known for certain if the publicity news reports about the group made by the BBC were after it’s supposed launch a few days ago. All has resulted in the appearance of the government owned broadcaster claiming neutrality while producing government sponsored propaganda. That they have given so much screen and radio time to a fake organisation while completely ignoring the the now very large grass roots campaign on the YES side has been well noted.

    The UK government and media have almost discredited peaceful democratic progress. You did that before in Ireland and quite a few places around the world.

    • GordonMcDonell

      “many people in Scotland don’t believe this referendum has been fair and democratic”

      If by “many” you mean a small band of conspiracy theorists that group around the rabble rousing gibberish put out by Wings Over Scotland (and their friends) then fair enough. However the idea that ordinary Scottish voters believe the entirety of the media is waging a secret conspiracy against independence is completely ridiculous.

      In fact, almost every Yes supporter I know is a completely reasonable individual that simply thinks independence would make us better off. They’re completely alienated by the kind of ideological war some people are attempting to wage over the subject. I know one, for instance, who as a moderate Yes supporter went on one of these sites with a few honest questions and within ten minutes was on the end of a self-righteous lecture about how she was a conduit for Better Together propaganda. If people think that’s a good way to win someone over to the cause then they need their head checked.

    • asalord

      Well said, Tammas. The recent BBC story about noborders – a “grassroots” organization according to the BBC – is a classic in the long line of unionist deceit.
      http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/05/bbc-propaganda-hits-new-all-time-low/

      • GordonMcDonell

        Or another in a long line of articles moaning about the minutiae of a fluff piece on the news and pretending it somehow constitutes proof of a grand conspiracy to bamboozle people into voting No.

        • Auldreekie

          No, nobody could mistake it for a mere conspiracy. When, for example, the editor of Scotland on Sunday tweets his allegiance to the Labour party and opposition to independence, it comes as no great revelation.

    • Auldreekie

      Too true about the unionist media’s bias and lies.

      It’s there again today, on the front page of Scottish edition of The Sunday Times.

      Despite David Trimble’s specific rejection of the report by the BBC, that he said, during an interview, that Scottish independence would be the biggest threat to peace in Northern ireland – you can hear his denial here….

      http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/9136-former-ni-first-minister-attacks-bbc-over-indy-ni-peace-threat-claims

      ,,,,,the Sunday Times happily repeats the allegation today, with Jason Allardyce ridiculously claiming that he ‘told The Sunday Times’ what he denied the day before.

    • Inverted Meniscus

      Oh just stop whining you ghastly little boor.

      • terregles2

        If you cannot post a coherent response and can only resort to personal abuse you do not really add much to the debate.
        Tamas expressed an opinion there is no need for you to respond with such venom.

        • Inverted Meniscus

          How richly ironic from the person who never debates but offers only vapid platitudes whenever a difficult question is raised. Why should the UK pay any of the transition costs following Scottish independence and what possible advantage is their to the UK entering a currency union with a foreign country? Your answers are invariably: 1) why would you wish Scotland any harm, 2) it will all be subject to negotiation by clever people, 3) you should be more optimistic, 4) Westminster is corrupt. But debate or rational answers never.

          • Sam Mitchell

            well it will be subject to negotiation… ONLY as I have posted… your little lot are NOT ALLOWED ( big writing ) to talk… mention… email… text… phone… whatever…. as your political masters seem to think that it will all go away on Sept the 18th… plus by not talking… they take away any advantage that the YES camp can have by proving themselves capable…. which… in reality would be fairly easy going by the reaction to some flooding down south… and…. you should be more optimistic…. you are so conventional Brit Nat… it’s boring… loosen up…
            westminster is unbelievably corrupt… do we genuinely need to go through the list…. and unfortunately the English have accepted this…. WHY???… that is more the relevant question….

            • Fergus Pickering

              Westminster is unbelievably corrupt? Compared with whom? Westminster is far less corrupt than most European Governments and far less corrupt than the rulers of Glasgow. And as for the European Union, don’t even think about it.

              • Sam Mitchell

                I agree that the labour party who RAN Glasgow is a byword for dubious practice… but are you being serious when you compare it with westminster… the sq mile… the metropolitan police… their union…. the bbc … the h. of l… etc etc etc… and I can recognise that you are angry … but this one little local labour party who fight each other for the crumbs from a small table is as nothing when you look at the present state of the English establishment…. and as for the EU… I do not think I will bother to reply on that… yet.. strangely… westminster and especially the labour crew are quite willing to keep the whole show on the road…

                • Fergus Pickering

                  I do not want to keep the show on the road. I want if OFF and in the ditch. The Scotch whinge I will ignore. I lived there long enough to be quite immune.

                • Sam Mitchell

                  I have lived and worked throughout the world…. and the Aussies some it up beautifully… although they alone are the only race who do not use profanities when describing the English attitude…. it comes in two versions…. “”whingeing poms “”…. or …” whingeing bloody poms “”…

                • Fergus Pickering

                  I don’t think the Ozboys differentiate. Scots and English are alike Poms, whingeing or not.

            • Wessex Man

              All this is quite true but you never answered any of his pointd, this is a trick normally done your more strident co-commentors.

        • Fergus Pickering

          It does not appear to be a debate. Only a lot of Scotchmen agreeing with each other. But since they are Scotchmen I doubt if it will last long. Independence for Shetland!

        • Doggie Roussel

          Christ, more trite simpering from the oracle of the Gorbals…

  • The_Missing_Think

    “… concedes a referendum to the Scots… but not the EU”
    _____

    That’s comparing apples to oranges.

    The anti-union SNP got the votes to form a majority governent in 2011, they won. (apples). One year earlier, the equivalent anti-ünion party recieved a paltry, well feeble, pathetic 3%, with LibLabCon hoovering up 95% of all votes cast, UKIP lost. (oranges).

    To be a valid comparson, UKIP have to match SNP’s outrageously brilliant success in the ballot box. And not before.

    Yes, I know it’s mis-named UKIP, and not ENP or EIP, but that’s not my doing, so UK votes must be won, due to its stance and name.

    And I fully understand why the Scottish UKIP vote peaks at 1%, it’s because they own a proven SNP bagpipe, hence the tune called, the jig danced, and all due to their votes.

    Which means, my lion bunny kippies, you have to bite the bullet, and face the fact that the Scottish ain’t going to EVER vote UKIP ever, whilst they own the SNP. Therefore, independance is a good thing for UKIP, and union is a massive inherent disadvantage in GEs.

    Deal with it, don’t whine about apples and oranges being different.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      Pointing out flagrant and flaunting hypocrisy is not whining, fyi.

      • The_Missing_Think

        No hypocrisy, the Scottish people forced Westminster’s hand, via the ballot box in 2011, whereas, the English stoically vote ‘My party, right or oh dear me, never mind, here’s the vote anyway’.

        There’s your hypocrisy.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          Yes hypocrisy. One vote, limited to one group’s participation, is approved. Another group isn’t allowed a vote, of any kind. Both these happenstances are acceptable to certain muppets.

          That’s what we call hypocrisy.

          • Sam Mitchell

            No… thats what I call …. as our Australian cousins so aptly put it….. Whinging Poms….

            • Wessex Man

              Well that would be true if the English people wanted Scotland to stay in the Union, we don’t!

              • RolftheGanger

                Your government do – and prove it by the unscrupulous lengths to which they are prepared to go.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  As opposed to ‘honest Salmond’ who will not admit that the reason he wants a currency union is to prevent Scottish debt trading at a premium to UK debt and leading to higher mortgage rates etc for Scottish residents. The same chap who spent public money trying to cover up the fact that his legal advice on EU membership did not exist. There are utter scumbags on both sides of the argument so do not claim that it is an exclusively Westminster issue and that the SNP are paragons of virtue. My favourite occurred when the idiot claimed a CU was vital to avoid translation risk on cross-border transactions. I mean no corporate treasurer in Britain has ever had to manage those risks before.

                • RolftheGanger

                  Standard Project Fear party line.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  I am economist by training and have spent a long career in the City. I know how debt is priced and without a currency union, Scottish debt will trade at a premium to UK debt. You have no record as an independent borrower, will likely receive an initial rating of Single A and have repeatedly threatened to repudiate Scotland’s per capita share of the National debt. The market will price Scottish debt accordingly. I have no sympathy with the unionist cause and want Scotland to become a foreign country. I believe Scotland will survive perfectly well although in the absence of a CU, it will cost you more when borrowing money. My only interest as a UK taxpayer is to ensure our politicians remain emphatically opposed to a CU and that the vast transition costs will fall solely upon the taxpayers of Scotland. Vote Yes is my recommendation but have the honesty, integrity and decency to pay for it yourselves and leave the UK taxpayer alone.

                • allymax bruce

                  “I am economist by training…”

                  I don’t believe you ;prove it.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              Sorry, lad, but pointing out reality isn’t whinging. And when that reality is hypocrisy…

          • allymax bruce

            How’s ye’r G-string? Getting on yer nerves; certainly gettin’ on oors!

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …are any of you jocks capable of speaking intelligibly?

  • Greenslime

    Let’s just get the chainsaw working on that border. I can’t stand any more of this whining and it will be no great loss.

    • Inverted Meniscus

      Good point but watch out because the cybernat nutters will be here like an avalanche of bile, hurt feelings and dissembling fantasy any time……….now!

      • GordonMcDonell

        As someone who will vote No I think it’s easy to forget that we’re in the majority North of the border – and have been in every legitimate poll conducted on the subject since the campaign started. Even among those who will vote Yes the brand of idiotic pig-headed nationalism that’s so visible on the internet only accounts for a small percentage of voters.

        Beyond that I’ll admit it’s pretty embarrassing being a Scot on the internet at times. There’s a brand of campaigning on the Yes side that seems to have more in common with a religious movement than a political one: independence is a no brainer, anyone who raises even the slightest objection is the enemy, all of society is waging shadowy secret warfare against them and so on.

        • Inverted Meniscus

          Well said Gordon. I have, foolishly, engaged with some of these ‘head cases’ on the subject of a currency union and post-independence transition costs. The responses defy belief. A currency union is a good idea because it is a good idea as far as these idiots are concerned. The fact that the UK taxpayer via the Treasury may not want to guarantee the newly issued public debt of a foreign country without being able to limit the amount and term of the debt raised is regarded as a combination of racism, bigotry and a sadistic wish to do Scotland harm. Likewise, the vast transition costs arising from splitting the hundreds or even thousands of agencies required to run the country such as defence, HMRC, ATC etc etc are deemed for the account of the UK or that favourite sop where no answer exists: ‘subject to negotiation’. No consideration is given to the fact that 91.7% of us will not be voting on this issue and thus why should we pick up the costs? No sane, rational answer is ever forthcoming from the SNP headbangers who infest this site. Good luck to you Gordon. It is good to know that the cybernat cretins do not represent every opinion in Scotland much as they would like to.

          • Sam Mitchell

            oh dear… another Brit Nat cretin…. so… currency union…. please explain how Luxembourg…. which is in a currency union…. and Malta….. which is in the same currency union has such different financial systems?….. and also please explain how you can foresee the “” vast”” transition costs that the inhabitants of No 11 do not wish to discuss with anyone North of Carlisle… and have issued a blanket ban on the lowest of low civil servants raising this issue with their counterparts in the North?…. do you have a glass ball?… so… if your little lot are not willing to talk… how can any cretin …other than yourself… provide any answers????….

            • Inverted Meniscus

              The UK taxpayer has no wish to underwrite the newly issued public debt of a foreign country without having any control over how much money that foreign country borrows and for how long it borrows that money. Also, we have no intention of acting as lender of last resort to your banks. Transition costs will be incurred as a result of having to split up the armed forces, HMRS and the thousands of other agencies of government you vote, we dont, you pay. Now why do you think a CU is a good idea for the UK?

              • Sam Mitchell

                Sorry … but you need to refer back to your friendly B.of. E. which issued some form of decree a few months back…. just before the combined tories at westminster said Scotland could not use the pound…. ( we had not realised that it was solely Englands)…. that… the B.of. E. would be responsible for ALL debt… 100% responsible…. which means Scotland will walk away CLEAN… although there are some diehard nats who wish us to take on a percentage per capita of the UK growing debt…. 8.9%…thankfully this group is diminishing by the day….
                AND… as I have posted… your little lot of oxbridge nonentities are not allowed to talk to any of ours…. so the question of costs…. responsibilities is one that you can ponder till the cows come home… unless you are connected within the system then perhaps your glass ball knows something of the facts involved…. HOWEVER… trident is going…. so you need to factor this in before 2020

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Utter gibberish. By all means continue to use Sterling it is a freely tradable currency and there is nobody in England, Wales and Northern Ireland who can stop you. What we will not have however is a currency union. No per capia share of debt means no per capits share of assets. Incidentally, try borrowing money having repudiated Scotland’s share of the National Debt – good luck with that. Lenders tend to keep clear of potential borrowers they deem to be defaulters.

                • Sam Mitchell

                  unfortunately I do not have the Standard & Poors comment or the Fitch’s comment on hand… I wish I had…. BOTH state that Scotland would have a TRIPLE A credit rating…. both stated this within the last three months….Google it…. does south of Carlisle have this??? and … what ASSETS… your country is in debt and growing by the second…. given that Gideon and his crew PROMISED to lower debt….. again Google it… it was in some manifesto…. But… what can you do…. seriously.. I wish it was different… if only the English would do something more practical than moan…
                  and the defaulting thing is not a concern…. Greece…. Spain…. Italy…. ALL with less assets than Scotland…. sure all paying over the odds … but surviving…. and… I have to say… Scotland will not be going down the road of bailing out banks…. we will appoint liquidators first…. apportion blame… make those responsible shoulder their risks… not reward them…

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Great so why do you want a currency union with the UK?

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Both do not state that at all, both state the rating would be favorable beginning with a likely A.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Oh don’t bother him with such petty matters like the truth. Besides, he doesn’t do sentences but ‘communicates’ via inarticulate, ranting gibberish.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Its ironic that the lie he was spreading was started by a Herald journalist.

                • Sam Mitchell

                  why should we have to borrow… when the bank of England simply prints the stuff… why can Scotland not do the same… and what ASSETS?…. your growing debt mountain…. some diplomatic enclaves… seriously what do you still own that hasn’t been sold off to foreign “investment”… and… google the credit reference agencies who ALL state that Scotland will start with a triple A rating… But… all this is beyond my deep understanding…. I just appreciate that we will no longer be part of your westminster elitism…

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Could any other cybernat nutter translate this cybernat nutter’s gibberish because he seems incapable of writing a sentence?

                • Sam Mitchell

                  even more insults… why is it that you are so conventional… is there a public/grammar school education lurking deep… why should I not write in whichever fashion I wish… is there a law now that states you can only write to “” inverted meniscus”” who is apparently afraid to sign his name … in a standard uniform set of words that must have a comma or a period at some point in a sentence… or is it that by using insults you can avoid giving any TRUTHFUL answers to questions or points posed??… and the symbol of cybernat…. thank you… thank you… so inspiring… like the increasing by the hour… mountain of debt that can not be described as an asset… unless you are Greek…

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Try Cyrillic lad we might understand your cybernat nuttery then. You certainly cannot communicate in English laddie.

              • Sam Mitchell

                as it will save your companies the extra costs involved in changing up their devalued pounds into whichever currency we Scots eventually settle on… But… why is it that you do not answer the point about each and every EU country that is in a CU yet somehow… manages to run their own tax systems… their own expenditure…. but who benefit from the single currency.. and an inflation rate that the UK can only dream about… especially when you have a monopoly of energy companies ripping everyone off with their accountancy practices…

            • Wessex Man

              I see what you mean Inverted Meniscus, the one above this comment displays all the charateristics of those mention by Margaret Curran in David Maddocx’s article in yesterday’s Scotland on Sunday. I wonder what these ranters feel about Gavin McCrone’s view that they should go back to the ‘merk’ after they win independence

              • Inverted Meniscus

                I am guessing that was meant to be addressed to me as opposed to that nutter.

              • Sam Mitchell

                Personally I do not care whether we use …turnips… as long as we are well clear of your rising indebtedness…. and I notice you scorn what I say but again as per usual …can not answer the question…. so so typical…

        • Sam Mitchell

          please keep on repeating this to yourself…. especially after Sept the 19th…. it will perhaps make it all seem so much easier to swallow…

        • Greenslime

          I am pleased to hear it. I don’t want Scotland to go. My antecedents are Scottish and many of my family speak Gaelic as their first language. But I am just becoming tired of this constant whining. Much of it is nasty and racist and, more often than not, wrong. You cannot even discuss things with a lot of Nats, let alone debate them. It’s like arguing with a wife when everything you say, do and think is wrong but they have never ever been difficult or unreasonable. Been there loads of times. Bored with it and tolerance level is zero.
          Quite frankly, if the majority of Scots decide to vote Yes to be ruled by people like that, good luck to them. I suspect saner heads will win over but I also suspect that that will not be the end of it.

          • Sam Mitchell

            So what has gaelic speaking to do with this?…. and those who can not speak gaelic are not allowed to whine??…. is the combined voices of non gaelic speakers who are finding out more of the truth daily causing some form of disturbance to your multilingual status?…. so.. it is pointless trying to explain the facts of life to you…. I simply hope you enjoy your acceptance of the open cesspit of corruption that is westminster…. the bankers who sat up and planned their scams…. of the Hillsborough cover up…. or the shredding by undercover officers… or Murdoch and his followers…. or the tax funded extravaganza of the bbc…. or any of the countless pile ups that westminster have encouraged… IT schemes that never work… etc etc…. but gawd forbid that any Scot Nat should moan about it…. as these posts are all from level headed Brit Nats who never moan about their subsidy of Scotland or A.S. and his self serving dictatorial ambitions… or of some Scots wanting a currency union…. how silly of them to moan…

            • Greenslime

              Sort of proves my point really. Trust you play off the front tee old girl!

              • Sam Mitchell

                again… another small minded Brit Nat who fails to answer the points… instead lives in the past where he is back at primary school… calling names… then running….. can not admit that what I have posted is the truth… or was there no corruption… no cover ups… no Hillsborough… etc etc etc etc… grow up sonny…

      • Sam Mitchell

        Not a bit of it… you flatter yourself….. we are leaving by democratic mandate…. citizens south of Carlisle can only watch and…. moan…. we are leaving you to the little choice you have… we are leaving you to your corrupt westminster…. your dodgy bankers … your dodgy financial regulator… your dodgy church…. your dodgy bbc… your dodgy EU referendum…. your dodgy Ukip…. as …we have through the SNP been given the opportunity to leave this unequal union… unfortunately…. some of us would have liked to have stayed…. but… the whining that comes from a system that allows you NO CHOICE……that has been all but accepted as hard fact by the multi ethnic citizens of a country that bears three sleeping lions within it’s crest and can only find the comments section of digital web sites to vent their …. moans… is… as the Russian foreign minister said…. a little island of no consequence….

        • Inverted Meniscus

          QED.

  • Mark McIntyre

    Wishing all the ‘British rags’ would follow suit !

  • duyfken

    This article and the stance now taken by the Sunday Herald seem to take the matter as one of newspaper circulation, regardless of the real issue.

    • Michael Mckeown

      Seems to me it can only be about circulation and advertising, newspapers are dying so the Herald needs to get all the Scottish government advertising that they now have but the trouble is the advertising is only as sustainable as long as the SNP are in office so it is likely only ever going to be a sticking plaster on a burst vein.

    • Will Rees

      Was a smart move though, as the article suggests No is a large constituency to leave without a voice. Will be voting NO but am glad there is a media voice for the other side. Hopefully will help cause the whole media to raise their game. Debate in pubs beats anything on the telly….Smart phones mean people can back up their points with data in real time. Hopefully the impasse the two conflicting visions of an Independent Scotland can be whittled down a bit.

  • RavenRandom

    I begin to hope for Scottish independence, as it will ultimately spare the rest of us from Miliband’s socialist back to the 70s lurch.

    • Michael Mckeown

      Every cloud…………….

    • Inverted Meniscus

      Agreed. I am otherwise indifferent to Scottish independence, no longer visit the place and am generally irritated by whining SNP cyber odiots who lay blame for all their country’s misfortunes at England’s door and claiming they will be an economic superpower after departure. With EWNI picking up the tab of course via payment of transition costs and the ludicrous suggestion of a currency union. On the other hand, the Mail ran a short article on the prospects of Gordon Brown becoming First Minister of Scotland. Now that is a prospect the ‘No’ campaigners could get behind! Should that calamitous, for the Scots, take place that would give the rest of us a good laugh after sighs of relief that that maniac would now be less likely to damage EWNI.

      • Sam Mitchell

        I am so pleased that our leaving will not cause you any tears… unfortunately …. if you had the bottle to write to your MP stating this and that he must implore dave and his allies to follow your example…. we in Scotland would not have to endure the same old fear campaign that your leaders are trying so hard in persuading us ( Scots ) not to leave…. BUT.. as you clearly read the daily fail and no doubt followed their ridiculous piece on the gordo becoming some form of MSP and therefore that Scots would see this fool as some form of saviour… you are most certainly a citizen of la la land…
        also…. it is more than clear to us that the oil wealth that has been squandered over the years by successive westminster parties… and will shortly no longer feature within the shrinking but debt ridden GDP of rUK.. has not assumed the throw away aspect you have applied to it as Gidde is determined to hold onto our massive input whatever the cost…..

        • Inverted Meniscus

          And yet for all that you are desperate to enter a currency union with the UK. Now why would that be?

          • Sam Mitchell

            we are not desperate…. we will continue to use the pound until the Scots pound takes off… as it will… OIL… Reusables… Forestry… fishing… agriculture…. tourism… whisky…. etc etc…. plus all those branch operations in Scotland will now be taxed in Scotland …not from their London HQ’s showing up as part of Londons GDP… or wherever…. as will all the VAT which we do not see a penny of… etc etc…

            • Inverted Meniscus

              Trust me, I will be delighted when Scotland is a foreign country.

              • Sam Mitchell

                Ah… so it is you Alister… we could tell it was all becoming too much for you… have a lie down somewhere sunny and come back for the removal on Sept the 19th… what’s it going to be…. Baron Darling of Naechance

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  The Champagne is in the fridge and will be opened to celebrate your departure.

                • Sam Mitchell

                  Thats good…. but it won’t be half of the party that will be going on here…

                • Wessex Man

                  David Maddox, Political Correspondent of Scotland on Sunday, ‘The yes campaign is trying to de-legitmise critical voices in the indepedence debate, making people and businesses afraid to speah out according to the Scottish Labour secretary.’

                  His article is a very good read, still availabe featuring a Curran’s fears and the bullying tactics that the Scots CyberNats campaign of intimindation. These are so often displayed here on any discussion where people like Sam Mitchell seek to close down any comment that hey don’t like.

                • RolftheGanger

                  Translated:
                  “We used to have it all our way and can’t take it when the formerly subservient insist on arguing back”

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Yes and the idiot cannot even write in sentences.

                • allymax bruce

                  Maddox is a shill liar; Bronwyn, of-whom, was in Atlanta (CNN), told me so.

                • Sam Mitchell

                  Bullying… oh I am flattered…. how can an infirm pensioner raise the ire of such distinguished cretins as wessex man… only by pointing out the ludicrous flaws in his ill thought out posts… and please demonstrate where I have “closed down any argument”… I am amazed that you have not the gumption to reply without resorting to your obvious no campaign tactics… accusing someone of bullying… how silly… ask gideon/ed/ & the ginger tom about… conspiracy of bullying…. not allowed to use the pound… thought we Scots would run off frightened…. really…

                • allymax bruce

                  Yeeeaahhh! (waiving arms in celebration).

                • Doggie Roussel

                  Or even waving, Ally, me old china…

                • allymax bruce

                  Doggie, today has been a day of reprisal; ok, you got that one. That’s what happens when I post pie-eyed!
                  But I still think it should be spelled ‘waiving’.

                • Doggie Roussel

                  Yes, my vision of Utopia… an England shot of the Scotch, the EU and the LibDems…

                • allymax bruce

                  You’ve got more chance of winning the Eurovision Song contest.
                  But you’re well shot of the Scotch; get yer bet on!

          • Sam Mitchell

            apparently it is for the Englanders benefit….. those who wish to remain trading with us….. though I am beginning to sense a backlash…

            • Inverted Meniscus

              Spare us any more of your cybernat gibberish lad.

              • Sam Mitchell

                again I thank you for this heartfelt compliment… unfortunately as you have shown through your colonisation attitudes you seek to avoid answers… like why we have branch company organisations like M&S.. Asda.. Morrisons… Tesco… BP etcetcetc.. who all take a profit from their operations in Scotland…. who then subsequently report this as part of their overall profit in usually London HQ’s and therefore will find that should they wish to continue trading north of the border will have to declare this profit made in Scotland available to Scottish Tax…. which will mean… they will pay this in …horror of horrors… pounds…. unless they in turn set up a book keeping establishment within Scotland…. or… decide to leave … either way… in order to assist this these companies we are… unlike the no sayers…. being helpful… I await your next put down with excited anticipation…

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  More gibberish lad. Didn’t they teach you how to write in sentences and paragraphs at school lad? Any idea what a comma or a full stop is lad? They really should teach you cybernat nutters to communicate in English lad.

      • terregles2

        It is a pity that you are so spiteful and vindictive. Thankfully most English people are not like that. Many of them who live in Scotland are campaigning YES. We wish a change in government but have no malice towards our English friends and neighbours. That would give the rest of us a good laugh.??? What kind of talk is that.?
        People who try to stir up hatred between Scots and English will never succeed. We will choose another form of government but will never respond to any nastiness from any quarter.

        • Inverted Meniscus

          Spiteful and vindictive yes that really sums up somebody who, God forbid, doesn’t want his country to enter into a currency union with a foreign country. As I said no debate just vapid, self pitying platitudes.

          • terregles2

            I really do wish that you would have more faith in the Westminster team who will negotiate with Scotland post independence. Tiny little Scotland will bully the big country next door when the negotiations start. Don’t think so. I know Westminster politicians are inept but the are not stupid they will fight had for a good deal for EWNI.
            How could it ever be otherwise.?
            You are ten times bigger than us. To suggest that you will lose out on anything is silly.

            • Inverted Meniscus

              I do not think we will lose out I just want somebody, anybody in Scotland to be honest enough to admit that all the costs will be for the account of Scottish taxpayers.

              • terregles2

                I don’t quite understand why you would care if you are not going to be living in Scotland.
                As you know that you will not lose out in any separation package then it is up to all the people living in Scotland to decide whether or not any independence costs will be money well spent or not.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  We will lose out if any of the costs associated with separation fall at our door. I could care less about what happens in Scotland. It is a complete irrelevance as long as myself and fellow EWNI taxpayers are not required to pay any of the bill. You also conveniently ignore the fact that the No vote is still in the lead.

                • terregles2

                  Well if the NO vote is leading then your questions are most probably hypothetical and you have nothing to worry about. In fact you have nothing to worry about whatever the result of the referendum.
                  Onwards and upwards.

                • Doggie Roussel

                  Yes, straight to Lala Land …

                • Wessex Man

                  Will you and my mate terrgles pleasestop referring to the UK as EWNI it is and will still be the UK.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Apologies Wessex. I normally insist upon it being called the UK but use EWNI when making the point that it is the taxpayers from these nations who should not pick up the bill if the exUK , hopefully, becomes independent.

          • Sam Mitchell

            I can not understand why you are so dead against this…. as it will eventually help you…. once it becomes apparent that Scotland is doing very well … and that the uni fees are still free… that elderly healthcare is free… prescriptions are free…. or simply funded by the Scots taxpayers…. who will not be paying taxes for HS2 or the non usable nuclear arsenal… and that these funds will be used for the citizens of Scotland… whatever you are… THEN…. perhaps the English citizens will seriously take issue with westminster…. perhaps Scotlands difference will be the spark…

            • Inverted Meniscus

              Fantasist.

              • Sam Mitchell

                of course to you it is “fantastic” to think that far ahead… when it would be possible for the growing inequality gap will lessen if not disappear… clearly your pre conditioning can not allow such visions to enter your small & shrinking world…

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Wow, a month later this cybernat nutter comes up with a reply. Keep listening to those voices inside your head lad.

                • Sam Mitchell

                  Im sorry its been a month but work and travels make it difficult to keep tabs on all the inconsequential posts…. and again… the cybernut… please explain this … did the daily fail sponsor your usage of this… as you seem to be hooked on it… I have noticed that anyone who DARES disagree with your daily fail conventionality earns the status of cybernut…. I have to explain here that amongst the twittering class this title is seen as de rigueur …. with points awarded…. dependent on the status of the provoked… like a certain champagne socialist lord will earn you 3 points… should he use your favourite word… and .. given that there are so many lords that fall into that category that is why the awarded points are so low… editors earn 5 points…. frocking vicars 10 points… still keep trying…. Im sure you will eventually work it all out..

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  I just don’t have time for inarticulate cybernat gibberish lad.

        • Doggie Roussel

          Stop patronising us English, you ghastly old bat… If you weren’t so blatantly dim one could almost accuse you of attempting irony… but sadly,no chance…

    • the viceroy’s gin

      Dave is going to be lurching right alongside him, just as he has been.

  • MaryRStephens

    It is extraordinary that a government that concedes a referendum to the Scots people on membership of the United Kingdom should deny one on membership of the EU. http://num.to/5276-6089-5094

    • Wessex Man

      er, it’s nothing to do with the UK Government and all to do with the EU, who have time after time told Alex Salmond that Scotland would have to apply to join the EU. He has in thepast denied this and has in the past said that he had written assurances that Scotland would become a member auyomatically and now can’t ‘find it.’

      I and I’m sure many people in England would love you to achieve your independence, just stop blaming us for imagined grievances and get on with it.

  • Albert Tatlock

    I wonder if the Sunday Hearld asked their employees and shareholders if they agree? I seem to remember the Yes Campaign criticising the CBi in Scotland for declaring for No without asking their members?

    • Will Rees

      Editorial position is editorial position. Which makes the BBC’s continued membership just about acceptable (nothing to do with the Editors). Though will be dragged up by unions and UKIP alike from now on. As for Yes criticising, if they didn’t consult (I believe they had 50 members input on their White paper response that caused the kerfuffel), that would be entirely justifiable. Its supposed to be the voice of industry not telling industry what it thinks. Bad enough its stuffed full of quangos.

      CBI credibility is at an all time low

    • ChuckieStane

      According to the Editor, interviewed yesterday, the decision to back Yes was cleared with the American owners.

      • Wessex Man

        oh I like that!

      • the viceroy’s gin

        So Obama gave the go-ahead, did he?

        The thick plottens.

  • Colonel Mustard

    That position is unassailable. That a people should have the right to self determination regardless of the consequences. it applies to Scotland. It should apply to England. And it should apply to the United Kingdom and the EU.

    It is extraordinary that a government that concedes a referendum to the Scots people on membership of the United Kingdom should deny one on membership of the EU.

    • Michael Mckeown

      To be fair the government have not, what they have said is to get a referendum on the EU the people must vote in a majority Conservative government so they will have the mandate to hold a referendum because right now they have no mandate and are lumbered with the Liberals who wont support self determination.

      • Colonel Mustard

        To be fair I was referring to government in the non-party sense, e.g. no party in government has conceded a referendum since the 1970s despite many changes to the EU “project” affecting our sovereignty and self determination.

        Understand about the Tory undertaking and constraints from coalition but their conditional promise is neither conceding nor denying.

        • Michael Mckeown

          That’s the trouble with coalitions but I do think Cameron’s promise is sincere though but I suspect he will be hoping for a no vote should the referendum materialize.

          • Colonel Mustard

            I thought his promise to “sweep away” New Labour’s nanny state was sincere. But even so there seems to be fuzzy uncertainty over just how renegotiation and referendum will be progressed and reconciled. Even most recently Cameron deployed a form of weasel words over “In/Out” and a “looser relationship with Brussels”.

            • Michael Mckeown

              For me if the referendum were tomorrow I would vote yes to leaving but I kind of like the idea of a renegotiation before the vote as it could make all the difference to staying but then again I suspect the EU as a whole will have none of it and that will only serve to increase the amount of yes to leaving votes.

              • Inverted Meniscus

                A pretty sound and accurate assessment methinks.

              • GordonMcDonell

                I’m not particularly pro-EU – I’d define my position as “pragmatic” more than anything else. However for me the problem is about how you define self-determination. Like it or not, the single market matters for our economy and the EU is where the rules are made which govern it. We’re actually “compelled” to do very little in the EU beyond agreeing to joint regulations to facilitate free trade and of course free movement of labour (which brings economic benefits in my view, but I understand some people disagree). That’s why we have opt outs in countless different areas, such as Justice and Home Affairs, the euro and whatever else.

                I think it’s easy to reject the EU out of hand, but it’s a dilemma for the government as to how you approach it. I don’t think it’s any great surprise that from Thatcher onwards every government has supported staying in. I know in Norway there’s a constant feeling that being integrated with the EU by default, yet not having any decision-making power, is the worst of all worlds.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …that would describe everybody associated with the EUSSR, wouldn’t it?

                • GordonMcDonell

                  People regularly make odd statements like that without defining what they actually mean. If “nobody” has any decision-making power in the EU then who makes the decisions? If you’re trying to imply that the Commission makes all of the key decisions then that’s one of the great myths in British politics.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Actually, that was a question, and no more undefined than your statement that evoked it.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  “I don’t think it’s any great surprise that from Thatcher onwards every government has supported staying in.”

                  That is not correct. Heath took us in and Wilson held the referendum that kept us in on the basis of his own government’s propaganda:-

                  ‘Her Majesty’s Government have decided to recommend to the British people to vote for staying in the Community’

                  HAROLD WILSON, PRIME MINISTER

                  You can read the rest of his arguments here, the one about sovereignty is interesting given everything that has happened since:-

                  http://www.harvard-digital.co.uk/euro/pamphlet.htm

                  You are also doing what many EU supporters do. Which is to suggest that free trade and agreements about free trade are inseparable from the project to create a European federal super state – a political entity that establishes top down governance rather than mutual co-operation. Not buying that.

                • Wessex Man

                  Our belonging to the EU protects British Trade and exports, British proganda division, David Cameron.

                  China has now banned all British cheese imports, Western Daily Press 03.05.14.

                  Some protection there.

                • Wessex Man

                  I’ve not rejected it out of hand, I’ve studied it deeply, None of the rules, regulations, directions or directives are made by the European Parliament they are formed by the un-elected EU Commissioners and rubber stamped by the Parliament. I’ve been there and it in action you can yourselves as a guest of your MEPs and see it in wonderful action.

                  The EU Commisioner Viviane Reding has already confirmed Nigel Farage’s assertion that 70% of Bristish laws are now made in the EU.

                  She has also said on the 14th February 2014 that “the British are too ignorant and not capable of making a decision and should not have a referendum on EU membership.”

                  I don’t really want to be ruled by people like that and nor should you.

              • ButcombeMan

                If I really thought there could BE serious re-negotiation over relationships within Europe I would be for it.

                I am convinced there cannot be such a reorganisation because the forces that are ranged against it will do their very best now to deny any democratic accountability,

                Cameron is missing a trick, he could lead the Europe wide representation of those millions for whom Europe is not working, put Britain at the heart of that movement. He would go down in history.

                Sadly he lacks the leadership ability or the vision. He will be a one term PM of Britain-quickly forgotten

              • Wessex Man

                There will be no negotiations, Barrsoso, Van Rompuy and Merkel have all said there will not be negotiations so why on earth does Cameron keep promising them and a referendum and why do you keep believeng him?

                • Doggie Roussel

                  Because he’s just telling another lie !

    • terregles2

      There is only a Scottish referendum because the SNP started to gain more votes in Scotland. If they had not been voted in then the Scottish electorate would have been ignored by Westminster. If Westminster had been fair with Scotland in the first place very few people would have voted SNP.

      • Colonel Mustard

        Serious question. Did the rise of SNP votes lead to devolution or devolution to more SNP votes? In England any party calling itself the English Nationalist Party, regardless of aspirations and policy, would be vilified and impeded from day one. It would be described as “racist” and “divisive”.

        There is a fundamental difference in the way that Scottish (and Welsh) nationalism is treated in Westminster. But it is in part due to that arrogance that conflates British with English and then peculiarly applies guilt and polemic only to the English as a separate identity.

        Westminster rolls out its concept of Unionist Britishness but has had to accept a degree of nationalist sentiment in Scotland and Wales for fear of giving offence – hence devolution. But they have no such qualms about England because the subversion of national identity to political ideology here is at a much more advanced stage. And the conflation of British and English allows Westminster to be complacent about any representation of the English and to dismiss any concerns about offending the English (Clegg does it all the time). How Westminster parties dare to talk about ‘one nation’ after the differences created by devolution is beyond reason.

        None of it is logical or even handed. The messages are mixed because the Union itself has no clear delineation and partial devolution has created a muddle. If Scotland secedes from the Union there will be an even greater issue of national identity for England. Politics will no doubt try to suppress logic because the suppression of English nationalism seems to be the policy of all three main parties. Without Scotland it will be interesting to see how they manage that.

        • Inverted Meniscus

          An excellent and balanced assessment Colonel on a subject worthy of debate. Utterly wasted on terregles, however. She does pro Scottish Nationalist assertions and urges a kind of vapid acceptance upon the rest of us but she most certainly never debates or sees the other side of the coin. Ask her who will pick up the transition costs following independence or why a currency union would be good for the taxpayers of England, Wales and Northern Ireland and the response will be utterly predictable. ‘Why do you wish Scotland harm’ in a whining self-pitying tone and it ‘will all be alright if you put your faith in Westminster politicians to negotiate a fair settlement’ These, of course, are the same Westminster politicians that the idiot will have decried as corrupt, incompetent etc in a earlier sentence. Dont waste your time and energy on that ‘Tartan Telemachus’.

          • Richard Ferguson

            Unfortunately that is the tone of the debate and it won’t change. I’d love it if both sides could come out and say “These are the key weaknesses in our arguments in this deeply complex and contentious issue. We acknowledge them”. Instead the vapid and corrupt sterility of Westminster is mirrored in a Caledonian counterpart with an extra dose of economic quackery attached.

            To paraphrase Kissinger, it’s a pity they both can’t lose.

            • Inverted Meniscus

              Thank you Richard, I think that encapsulates the problem nicely. The SNP economic vision for Scotland post independence is the most utterly dishonest portrayal I have witnessed in a long while and matched only by the economic follies of Westminster politicians. Osborne has however got one thing emphatically and unremittingly correct and that is that there must be no currency union between the UK and Scotland. It would be the most callous betrayal of UK taxpayers who will have no say in this debate via the ballot box. Salmond knows that he can wave around a hundred predictive reports from S&P, Moody’s etc promising a triple A rating but nothing will stop Scottish debt trading at a premium to UK debt without a currency union. He knows this because sensible people have told him so but to admit it and the implication that Scottish mortgage rates etc would rise above those in England, Wales and Northern Ireland will hole him below the waterline. Thus we will never get an honest debate.

              • Richard Ferguson

                I agree with much of what you are saying but It is worth noting that Salmond can adopt sterling. There are various mechanisms (eg, currency boards) and examples (“dollarisation”) which suggest which technically it is feasible.

                However, any economic entity using the currency of another economic entity surrenders control of monetary policy the outcomes of which are, well, let’s just say, beyond considerable. Mention this to nationalists and they head off to fantasy economics island – which provides a rare breath of humour for participants in the dismal science.

                Equally, the views and responses of Alexander, Osborne, Balls & Co. are also economically sub-literate.

                I was always surprised that the debate on this subject stagnated so rapidly. Given that Salmond and the trio I mentioned above all have strong backgrounds in economics. I can only assume that the reason for this is that is that (a) the public can only cope with so much economic theory or (b) the ancient universities of St. Andrews and Oxford and their respective economics departments are more rubbish than one might have thought.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Right on the money Richard if you will forgive the pun. The only way a CU will work is if the UK had complete and unfettered control of Scottish fiscal, monetary and expenditure policies I.e. What we have now and that would hardly be independence for Scotland. In answer to your questions, in my opinion many of the public conflate use of Sterling with a CU and hence the debate descends into the ridiculous ” it’s our currency as much as yours ” v “no it isn’t , you voted to leave” . Few seem to appreciate that Sterling is a freely tradable currency and Scotland can use it for as long as it likes. Few understand the role of the BOE as lender of last resort and once again the argument turns into a ” it’s our central bank as well” v ” the clue is in the name” and a stand off ensues. It seems anomalous to me that the UK would underwrite the debt of a foreign country and act as lender of last resort to its banks. No doubt some kind of complicated ‘smoke and mirrors’ compromise could be constructed but such constructs rapidly collapse under the weight of their own contradictions and the diverging monetary and fiscal objectives of the participants. In the end a clean break is probably better and a compromise simply ‘kicks the can done the road’ and a bigger problem will eventually emerge. I studied at one of the institutions you mention and it houses some very clever people. A long career in the City has taught me to temper theory with practicality and that politicians deride and markets decide. The debt raised by an independent Scotland will almost certainly trade at a premium to UK but that is a truth for Mr
                  Salmond that simply cannot speak its name.

                • Richard Ferguson

                  I only jest in respect of Hull, sorry, I mean Oxford….;-)

                  I too had a lengthy City career. The horribly direct experience of the Asian Financial Crisis and the collapse of the Argentine Convertibility System – and a Masters dissertation on the two subjects – left me deeply sceptical of politicians and their views on currencies. Still, perhaps after September, I might have to re-acquant myself with living in a frontier market again….

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  I know the feeling well. I am now retired and thus have too much time to contemplate recurrences of such dreadful events. One thing I am certain of is that the politicians will ignore sound professional advice, assuming they have the brains to seek that advice in the first place and make a royal mess of this situation. The long suffering public will pick up the tab and the idiots on the extremes of this debate will squabble over the wreckage.

          • terregles2

            Good heavens….. I never even saw my lips move there. I have a two thousand word essay to finish today. Would you like to compose that for me as well.?

            • Inverted Meniscus

              I was having a debate with a civilised chap called Richard Ferguson and then a vapid cretin intervened.

              • Richard Ferguson

                Steady Inverted – these forums are generally awful for this kind of stuff – and possibly what prevents many people from engaging with what constitutes a “debate”. Always best simply to ignore it and not be riled by it.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  True but that particular SNP Troll particularly irritates me. A never ending stream of vapid rubbish and whining: “why do you wish Scotland harm”? I don’t wish anybody harm I simply like difficult questions to be confronted with rational analysis rather than the pathetic propagandist drivel of that Troll.

              • terregles2

                You are such a charmer. A sense of humour is also very attractive in a man.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Shouldn’t you be writing an essay? Don’t bother with Harvard referencing because you won’t provide evidence and a rational analysis thereof. 2,000 words of mindless waffle should take you no more than 15 minutes and then you can devote your time to whining, waffle and dissembling rubbish for the SNP as usual.

              • Doggie Roussel

                Vapid is too kind…

        • allymax bruce

          “Serious question. Did the rise of SNP votes lead to devolution or devolution to more SNP votes?”
          Don’t mean to butt-in, however, I would ask your question in a different nuance; how long did it take for the Westminster gov’ to collapse under their own stiffle to Scotland’s Right to Self-Determination; votes, or otherwise?

          You know, as well as I do, Westminster have been trying to ‘scuttle-the-Scots’, for nigh-on 100 years. Only the SNP ‘happened-to’ make good on their show, promises, and strength. It came from stalwarts like Robert Bontine Cunninghame Graham, John McCormack, Douglas Young, Robert McIntyre, Jim Sillars, Alex’ salmond etc; Westminster is the ‘illegitimate’ government, and you know it!

          • the viceroy’s gin

            Here’s what we know, and it’s your future, if you jocks do somehow decide to pull yourselves off the socialist teat of government (which I doubt will ever happen):

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzYm3ig7tak

        • terregles2

          These are interesting points that you raise. I think the rise of the SNP vote is a bit of a mixture. Without doubt Devolution would never have happened if there had not been a rise in the SNP vote. Why would anyone bother to set up devolution if there was no significant rise in the independence vote. Once people have seen what the SNP have done in Holyrood they quite liked what they saw and the SNP vote increased. SNP are far from perfect. They are politicians and will always make mistakes as they all do but overall they have done reasonably well in Holyrood.
          Welsh and Scottish nationalist parties are called that because it simply means that both countries want to have self government as individual nations. It has no other meaning. If for example Scotland had no Scots living here but say only English or Irish or Welsh. it would still be called Scottish nationalist because it refers to the governance of Scotland not the individual people who live in Scotland.
          England has never had a political party who have English independence as their main policy. If such a party were formed though it could be called the English National party because it would only be referring to the independent governance of England and not the race or nationality of people living in England.
          I hope that after Scottish independence the English will start to take more pride in their history and culture. The only time Englishness seems to be celebrated now is in football or a royal wedding.
          There is so much more for English people to be proud of.

    • allymax bruce

      Scotland’s ‘position’ is absolutely legitimate; tell me how many Scots voted to force this horrendous ‘union’ together?
      Moreover, tell me how many English voted to force this horrendous ‘union’ together?

      Get with the programme old man.

      • Colonel Mustard

        Er, perhaps you should re-read my comment more carefully. I was stating precisely that the Scottish nationalist position is legitimate – unassailable by any argument about the consequences real, imagined or predicted. No need for the ageist ad hominem.

        • allymax bruce

          Ok Colonel, my apologies; *deemed reprimanded.

          Back to the future; well, you shouldn’t write backwards; what is it with yoos ‘intelligent’ English, you always write in chiastic fashion?
          Where did you learn to do that?
          Who taught you to do that?

          It doesn’t make any sense, especially as the reader is not reading your writing from right-to-left, but from left-to-right.

  • Michael Mckeown

    Just noticed my pre approved status has been revoked over there so it seems along with supporting the separatists the newspaper has censored the critics of independence but still I think they will be the only one.

    The advertisements on today’s Herald are telling, the overwhelming majority are from the Scottish governments departments!

    • Sam Mitchell

      At one time…. ALL government adverts were carried by THE SCOTSMAN…. regretfully this once proud newspaper is not a shadow of it’s former self…. over and above it’s abhorrence of Scots and Scotland… it openly displays a form of nationalism that is offensive to most Scots…. therefore…. if you fly with the crows…..

      • Michael Mckeown

        Most Scots according to all credible polling support the United Kingdom, where are you getting your sources from?

        • Inverted Meniscus

          Voices inside a troubled and deluded head.

        • Sam Mitchell

          Certainly not from Polling as I can demonstrate four questions within the YouGov poll of 26th May that were posed in such a fashion that they could only be answered in a negative position… one in particular was regarding pensions… which allowed a choice of two options… BOTH unfavourable to a positive break up … and my sources are from the canvassing of Dumfries… Castle Douglas… Kirkcudbright… and a dozen smaller village’s throughout D & G…. but… we still need to convince more of the negativity of westminster…. although the corruption of the place is well known…

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