Coffee House

The Ukip ‘earthquake’ must provoke a proper debate about immigration

27 May 2014

12:09 PM

27 May 2014

12:09 PM

The ‘debate’ about immigration in recent weeks has failed to focus on the crucial issue – the sheer scale that immigration has reached and its inevitable impact on our future. Perhaps this week’s ‘earthquake’ will prepare the ground for a serious discussion of what has to be done while preserving our open society and economy.

The fundamental reality is that, under Labour, net foreign immigration was very nearly four million, while one million British citizens emigrated. Of Labour’s four million, only one third were from Eastern Europe, but those are the only ones that they mention. It cannot have escaped their notice that the other two and a half million are from outside the EU and are heavily inclined to vote Labour. Indeed, if they are from Commonwealth countries they do not even have to gain British citizenship to vote in our general elections.

The public debate has focused almost entirely on eastern Europeans. This may be because everyone is terrified of accusations of racism. It may also be because eastern Europeans are spread widely across the country and come to the notice of the general public. They are perceived as taking British jobs – as indeed they do. The legion of pro-immigration economists claim that other jobs will be created. Even if that were so, the prospect of some other job, in some other industry, in some other part of the country is of no help to a British worker who has a child in a local school and whose spouse or partner may well also be working locally. It seems that this dislocation of working peoples’ lives has until now escaped the notice of the commentators.

These same people, many of them traditional Labour voters, also find that their maternity units, primary schools and doctors surgeries are coming under pressure of extra numbers. The only response they have received from the metropolitan elite has been condescension at best or snide accusations of xenophobia, even racism, at worst.  No wonder they are furious.

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What about the ‘invisible’ two thirds of the immigrants who arrived under Labour? They mainly disappear into the city centres and join their own communities in conditions that are increasingly unsatisfactory but are still, usually, much better than in their home countries.

But they cannot be excluded from the debate.  In the long term their arrival in such numbers poses a serious problem of integration. Indeed, in parts of our major cities there is no indigenous British community with which to integrate. The foreign-born population has already doubled in twenty years. One academic study suggests that, in fifty years time, the white English will find themselves a minority in England. The public sense this and wonder in what kind of a country their children and grandchildren will grow up.

If net migration continues at the average level of the past decade, we will add ten million to our population in the next twenty years. That is a colossal number, with huge implications, both for our society and our environment. It is no use the immigration lobby assuring us that we have plenty of green fields that could be built over. Few people want to see that.  Even so, we will have to build one home every seven minutes to house new immigrants and their families. We may eventually build the houses but we will never sufficiently improve the roads that will become progressively choked with traffic in many parts of England.

The public can see this. That is why 77 per cent want immigration reduced, 78 per cent believe that England is already overcrowded and 85 per cent think that immigration is placing too much pressure on public services. This is the subterranean pressure, denied and even derided by Labour and the Lib Dems, that led to the UKIP earthquake last week.

Where next? The Lib Dems are finished on immigration. Labour are miles behind the curve, trying to shift the debate to the cost of living whilst proposing  trivial measures presented as reducing the threat to jobs. None of them will have any effect on the scale of immigration.

The Conservatives have been unlucky. A major effort to reduce non-EU immigration has borne a good deal of fruit but not yet enough. Meanwhile, they have been knocked sideways by a doubling of net migration from the EU that now approaches half the total.

We believe that EU migration from Eastern Europe, Romania and Bulgaria, and southern Europe will continue at least into the medium term. It follows that action must be taken to control it. Measures to deter benefit tourism are fully justified but most European migrants come here to work and will continue to do so. This may be evidence of a growing UK economy but these mainly low paid eastern European workers add little or nothing to our wealth per head, while adding substantially to the problems of overcrowding.

The public are not stupid. They will see that measures addressed only to benefit tourism are just camouflage and they will demand practical steps that will have a serious impact on numbers, both from the EU and beyond. That is where the true debate must now focus and it brings us back to the tension between staying in the EU and control of our borders. The government must now find allies in Europe to take forward proposals on this front. Given the election results in other EU countries, this may not be as lonely a task as it might have seemed in the past.

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  • http://twitter.com/JohnSydenham John Sydenham

    We could have a proper debate if racism of the second kind was exposed in the press.

    Many journalists and all of the established parties believe in the removal of Sovereign States in Europe. They believe this out of fear: fear of war, fear of diversity. These racist enemies of diversity hold forth with impunity.

    It is this fear of other races that has led them to the “final solution” of the eradication of social diversity from Europe. See Is Internationalism the Ultimate Racism?.

    The aggressive yob who supports his own country as if it were a gang is nowhere near as racist as these purveyors of a final solution to the race issue.

  • ArchiePonsonby

    With the greatest respect to Sir Andrew, whose company does sterling work – every time I see the words “honest debate” and “immigration” in a mainstream media article, I know, without even looking, that we are about to be fed the same old platitudes by the LibLabCon that they have chucked our way for at least sixty years!

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    “And so we face the final drama
    In the streets and in the fields
    We stand unbowed before their armour
    We defy their guns and shields”

    • George Smiley

      YOUR own final schizophrenic Valhalla, you mean?!

  • Mike

    The UKIP sucess wont and cant force a proper debate on immigration for the simple reason Cameron has to bend over to the ruling elite in Brussels. He has the means at his disposal to negotiate changes under threat of withdrawal but has bottled out of doing so.

    All we hear is pathetic bleats that his hands are tied by Brussels and there’s nothing he can do until after the GE. Without control of our borders and self determination, its business as usual submitting to the control freaks within the EU like some nervous virgin on her wedding night !

  • DaveTheRave

    Debate? We’ve been having the debate for over a decade, longer. Logic says that you could fit the population of the world within a small area of England. Sanity hints that this might be a tiny bit misguided. Clearly, it is time to act.

  • john king

    “and wonder what kind of country they’ll grow up in”.
    This is the most telling sentence that in my mind that has ever been expressed in print. I’m VERY family orientated and this situation is of constant worry to me.
    I’m sure i’ll be vilified and accused of racism and sundry mortal sins but I simply don’t care. I’m racist and I care only for my offspring.
    As far as I’m concerned the evil people in this country are the left.

  • Mara

    I live in Denmark and although our problems with immigration have not reached your level yet, we are well on our way. We have whole streets burgled by criminal gangs from Eastern Europe every day or brutal home robberies. As soon as the job is done they leave the country and are never caught. That is just one consequence of no borders and free movement. As recent elections have shown many people are totally fed up with the EU and politicians ignoring or not even adressing immigration problems. The only EU critical party who won the election is being called every nasty word you can think of like racist, extreme right, nazis or things worse. People voting for the party are regarded as less intelligent, less educated and somewhat primitive. We all want to leave the EU but will it make any difference? The whole of Europe is dominated by the EU whether you are a member or not. Look at Switzerland. Joinded Schengen (deal with the EU in return for what?) and lots of problems with too many immigrants in a small country. Norway pays a lot of money to the EU even tough not being a member in return for what?. The EU is dominated by communists and socialists. It is a threat to all free countries. They can stop trading with you or put all sorts of obstacles in your way and as we know them by now – they will because they have the power. So even though we all want to leave the EU, our problems will not be over. EU has to be destroyed from within. I just cannot see it happening.

    • Donafugata

      Mara, we have a serious problem in the UK and that is despite being an island and not being in Schengen, I dread to think how much worse that would be.

      The thing is, we must learn to ignore the name calling, racism is such an overused word now, it is becoming meaningless. If you remember that the people who call you racist are themselves quite demented, it really doesn’t matter.

      Name-calling is something most of us learn to deal with in the playground so ignore the language and let’s get Europe back for the people it belongs to.

  • pinkgunnergirl

    What are the measures that can be taken to reduce numbers from Eastern Europe? This article has not proposed any.

    The Tories are setting up a straw man when talking of benefit tourism, out of work benefit restrictions and deportations of the unemployed.

    1. Benefit tourism is non existent. Benefits in the rest of western Europe are more generous but unlike Britain are contribution based not Universal. There is no way of proving active benefit tourism and therefore no policies to be able to combat it.

    2. Out of work benefit restrictions proposed by IDS are insignificant and hardly effect anyone. That is why Nick Clegg is supportive, it’s nothing but dog whistling gesture politics. The numbers on these benefits JSA, Income support, ESA are very low and a 3 month wait for new applicants will make no difference at all.

    3. They talk of deporting the unemployed but I will bet my life that in 12months time not one Eastern European will have been deported despite many being unemployed for more than 6months and the fact that the number of homeless Eastern Europeans is rising very very fast. This is because the police and UKBA are not enforcing the rules and the legal system and judiciary will not allow this to happen. Also the language is opaque. Deportation can only happen if there is no “reasonable” chance of finding a job. Everybody has the “reasonable” chance of finding a job, so i repeat no one will be deported.

    The REAL issue is IN WORK benefits. Housing Benefit, Working Tax Credits, Child Tax Credits and Childcare tax credits. These are more likely to be claimed by EU migrants. It is access to these benefits that needs severely restricting, yet the Government & Opposition NEVER make reference to them. These benefits are costing taxpayers a fortune and ballooning the welfare budget. It is no coincidence that the rise of EU migration in the last 2 years, as mentioned in this article has seen the tax credits bill rise by £5 Billion pounds, as reported in the Guardian two weeks ago.

  • chudsmania

    You cannot have a serious debate about immigration whilst we are members of the EU. End of story .

  • Lucy Sky Diamonds

    Pffff now Tony Blair is interfering….Well obviously YOU aren’t bothered by immigration, are you Mr Blair? In your nice insulated bubble, away from all the trouble and strife caused by your open-door policy and your beloved EU’s ‘freedom of movement’ laws, you couldn’t give a stuff! It was you who flung open the gates and went touting for every bit of foreign flotsam you could find. It was your wonderful mates in the EU who passed laws to back this up, and it was you who made sure we couldn’t object to it without your ministers calling us ‘racist’ or ‘bigots’. Before your New Labour government came along, this country was still Britain – now parts of it resemble the back end of Karachi and some places are no-go areas for Christians. It was your lot that planted the seeds of this revolt, don’t you think you have rather a brass neck complaining about it?

  • andagain

    The public debate has focused almost entirely on eastern Europeans. This
    may be because everyone is terrified of accusations of racism.

    That’s the only kind of immigration that can be blamed on the EU. Why should UKIP care about any other kind?

  • Donafugata

    Apologies for the triplicate posting.

  • itdoesntaddup

    Let’s look at the data – such as we have. The ONS has recently admitted it undercounted on a net basis by 350,000 mainly A8 immigrants, and also that it has undercounted the number of children under 15 by an unspecified amount: if you’re wondering why there is a shortage of school places, look no further.

    The numbers moving for work related reasons have moved from a small net emigration (dominated by Brits and non-EU people, exceeding the EU inward net migration) to net immigration as inward EU migrants have surged over the past year, with 40% of them “looking for work” rather than taking up a definite job. Net, it accounts for around 30,000 out of the 212,000 net immigration across all nationalities.

    The family route is dominated by net inward migration from outside the EU (particularly from Old Commonwealth), although there has been an uptick in EU families joining their breadwinners. Measures to counter sham marriages seem to have proved ineffective as numbers are barely affected: the last time we had balance in this area we still had the primary purpose test. The slightly tougher financial constraints are perhaps shutting out a few genuine love matches, but little else. Overall, it accounts for around 40,000 of the total net immigration.

    Going home to live, no reason stated and other categories show a small net emigration.

    The big one?

    “Students”. On the basis of students accepted against those going abroad to study, it was 150,000 net immigration in 2013. Emigration of former non UK students was under 70,000 – whereas the numbers admitted when they would have started their courses were close to a quarter of a million. Grayling’s attempts to cut numbers by closing bogus colleges reduced intake by about 70,000, but it still leaves students as the big back door route into the UK.

    That’s a conversation we haven’t begun to enter into.

    • Muttley

      Is that University students, or does it include the vast mass of bogus language college students too?

      • itdoesntaddup

        It includes anyone on a Formal Study visa for over a year. It excludes “student visitors” on shorter visas, who may just happen to overstay and fall off the radar. The stats don’t count migrants who say they are coming for under a year – which equally applies to another hidden element – Mode 4 migrants who work on contract and rotate out every 12 months, while not having to pay full UK taxes.

        • Muttley

          Thanks. So basically we are talking about indefinite numbers.

          • itdoesntaddup

            I’ve not seen much attempt by statisticians to estimate visa overstayers in any category. The stats are still full of holes that even the census didn’t manage to plug – but you can understand why there is a move to abandon the census, and no attempt to do something really simple like add up the passenger numbers counted by airlines, ferries and Eurotunnel (which would only miss stowaways and other small flows e.g. private craft).

            • Muttley

              Thanks for you replies, very interesting – and somewhat depressing!

  • Laguna Beach Fogey

    What is to be done?

    Not only is mass third world immigration a form of ethnic cleansing and genocide of the indigenous population, but it will also lead to the ‘Lebanonisation’ of Britain, with all the violence, war, and partition that term entails.

    Rough times ahead.

    • Muttley

      I am so hoping I will be dead by then! Or maybe we can all emigrate to Russia, where they seem to have a clearer understanding of these things.

  • Muttley

    It is very unfortunate that the concentration has had to be on Eastern European migrants to avoid the accusation of racism. Non-integration of Asian minorities is just as much, if not more, of a problem for our cities but everyone is too scared to discuss it, let alone try to tackle it. Suppression of debate is very unhealthy in what is supposed to be a democracy. If we had been allowed a real discussion of the issues, this whole situation wouldn’t have arisen. Of course, Blair is largely to blame, but I also think that Cameron and Co were complete moral cowards not to tackle it head on. The result of all that is UKIP, whom I support, but the wimpish LibLabCons can’t complain it’s taking their votes – it’s their fault!

  • The Masked Marvel

    They come to Britain because their countries are crap, particularly that other two thirds. The problem is that too many of them then bring the crap along with them, and vote as their local chieftains instruct them. Exactly as they did in their crap home countries. Integration ain’t the half of it. But because these people have brown skin, the media and government have had a weapon with which to stifle dissent.

    No more.

    • Muttley

      I haven’t heard a single word about the Tower Hamlets meltdown on the BBC.

      • HappyinHerts

        No, nor have I. What with that and allowing a party calling itself ‘An Independence from Europe’ on the ballot papers the Electoral Commission have a lot of explaining to do.

      • The Masked Marvel

        BBC journalists and editors tend to demur from reporting these things too loudly, or at all, lest it encourage prejudice. The BBC often operate as if they believe it their duty to protect those people from the likes of you.

    • Donafugata

      Absolutely.

      They say they come here in search of a better life. If that were the truth, they would integrate and behave, dress etc. like us.
      That is what happened in the 1950s, and is the origin of a now, tabu acronym describing people from the east becoming westernised.

      As the numbers increase, so does confidence and the sense of entitlement because this is now “their” country.
      Immigration from Asia and Africa has damaged the country in many ways. From corrupt elections through to the shanties in towns of high density immigration, this country is gradually being transformed into the very places that the immigrants want to escape from.

  • The Blue Baron

    We’ve had the debate. It’s over. People want to see immigration significantly reduced.

  • black11hawk

    Various politicians and pundits keep appearing on television speculating as to why people are voting UKIP. Well, a good start would be to read this. People keep saying it’s about anger, disillusionment and apathy, well yes, but all those things are symptoms not causes.

  • GFK

    An excellent article by Sir Andrew Green, who for years was villified by the North
    London “bien pensant” and their pretentious followers, for his courage and
    honesty in bringing into the open and talking about the transformation of this
    country through uncontrolled immigration, with all the negative effects not only
    on Britain’s services and infrastructure, but also the destructive effects on
    the integrity and fabric of the British way of life and freedoms.

  • Raddiy

    There will be no real debate on immigration, change will only come by UKIP battering down the establishment group think, with the total destruction of one or more of the establishment parties, and by cutting off the ba**s of the others with a rusty knife.

    I have been campaigning in the Labour heartlands since the post Maastricht schism with UKIP, and even before with earlier groups. I can well remember the vitriol we have been subjected to, the linking of us with the BNP, people frightened to discuss immigration for fear of being accused of being racist. Our early support learnt that discretion was the safer option against the fascists in the Labour movement, and their paid for proxy thugs of UAF, Hope Not Hate, and other such anti-democratic groups. Of course we should not forget their paid up friends in the Conservative party such as David Cameron who has quite happily maintained his support of the UAF despite its violent anti-democratic politics. We have persevered and we have got tougher and tougher, and now the people are no longer afraid to say they support UKIP, or that they are against immigration. We have already had the debate, we have won the argument, and now we will implement the decision of the people, however long it takes.

    We have heard all the opinion for 20 years of our impending demise, all the analysis, all the chutzpah, which today has been replaced with hordes of media hacks falling over themselves, as they clamber over the fence to reposition themselves, their earlier predictions have proved to be a load of verbal diarrhoea, flushing down the bog.

    Here is a simply message to all those interested.

    We are the generation that allowed this to happen, we are the guilty generation, betraying the sacrifices of our parents and grandparents, and it is our duty as a generation to right that wrong, one day UKIP may become part of the establishment, but that is for the future. This generation will ensure that we will win this war, and put in place whatever is necessary to ensure that never again will the anti democrats be in a position to ignore the people, and give away our democracy.

    However long it takes, however painful it is, and whatever sacrifice is necessary, we will win this war, and we are under no illusions that to do so we will have to destroy the status quo first.

    • bugshead

      Well said, let’s effect change now before these mendacious clowns in government destroy the country entirely

    • Denis_Cooper

      I remember delivering leaflets some years ago, and a chap who was in his front garden took the leaflet and had a look at it, and then he glanced all around to make sure that there was nobody who could overhear him before telling me what he thought about immigration. It was as if we were in one of the Soviet satellites and you had to be very careful what you said and who you said it to.

      That is what these sh1tes have done to my country, which was once famed for its freedom of speech; they quite deliberately put it on the path to becoming a repressive society where nobody dared to speak their minds any more.

      And the Tories have readily joined in with this attempt to destroy free speech: yesterday I read this article by the Tory MP Sarah Wollaston:

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/10856282/Sarah-Wollaston-MP-Lib-Dems-and-Labour-should-back-the-Conservatives-in-an-EU-referendum-bill.html

      and see what she says:

      “For the first time I now hear, at some public meetings, people who feel comfortable to openly express hostile, xenophobic views reframed as “just speaking my mind”. Since when was that the British way? It’s a short step from there to broken windows and escalating hate crime.”

      • colinintokyo

        Believe me Denis, Sarah Wollaston is no Tory. She may, like Cameron, be masquerading as a Conservative but they only serve to show how we need to destroy this party.

      • Raddiy

        Exactly Denis, these tossers who think they can waffle and obfuscate to us have not the slightest understanding of what we have been through to get here. They have no understanding of our determination to destroy their corruption of our democracy.

        I watched a little old lady in Thurrock today on the news say quite openly and without fear that she voted UKIP because of immigration. The people are no longer scared, they no longer feel threatened to say what they feel, we can be proud as a party that we have beaten back the enemy within, and now we have to force them to change or destroy them in the process.

        Onwards to Newark and the 2015GE.

  • GFK

    An excellent article by Sir Andrew Green, who for years was villified by the North London “bien pensant” amd their pretentious followers, for his courage and honesty in bringing into the open and talking about the transformation of this country through uncontrolled immigration, with all the negative effects not only on Britain’s services and infrastructure, but also the destructive effects on the integrity and fabric of the British way of life and freedoms.

  • pandaha

    Chances are in 20/ 30 years from now the countries in East Europe will have caught up in living standards and many that are here will take their money and leave (unless they have married)

    Not so for other migrants. The issue is community isolation and we would have been wise to listen to Trevor Philips on the issue of sleepwalking into segregation. We cannot predict the future, but I hope it isn’t as bad as some imagine

  • jack

    Maybe we should give fast track visa’s to atheists and agnostics, and to the rest a reduced ( perhaps weighted) right of abode based on a test of the relative peacefulness of their beliefs.

    • itdoesntaddup

      Atheists have a violent record in the 20th century. Are you sure?

      • jack

        Atheism is not an ideology, philosophy or a belief system, and so it does not promote grouping that might cause societal instability.Yes, i am sure.

        • itdoesntaddup

          You better ask Joe Stalin and Mao about that.

          • jack

            communists did not kill in the name of atheism.

            • itdoesntaddup

              I think you should ask the persecuted churches and mosques about that.

  • Denis_Cooper

    Actually, apparently unbeknown to the political class, quietly among themselves and mostly in private, the general population have already had their broadbrush debate on immigration and the answer from the great majority is that we want it drastically curtailed or stopped altogether. Now the ongoing discussion is just over the details of the reduced quantity and much higher quality that we would be willing to accept as new citizens in our country. Not that this matters at all to most of the political class, who have their own opposing view and couldn’t give two hoots what we think; in fact they don’t even see this as being our country in the first place and can’t understand why we think we should have any say in the matter. So they must be made to do what we want, and short of violence that means consistently refusing to vote for them and thereby depriving them of the power to impose their weird and destructive ideas on the rest of us.

  • saffrin

    Under Labour, net foreign immigration was very nearly four million. Of Labour’s four million, only one third were from Eastern Europe, the other two and a half million are from outside the EU.
    telemachus has got some front posting on this thread.

  • bugshead

    Let’s be open and honest for once. Thank you Mr Green for pointing out that the massive volume of immigration from Pakistan, India and Africa which has flooded the country is what really really worries all of us. Also that it is almost all uneconomic and from alien cultures that have absolutely no interest at all to integrate or become part of UK society – except to the extent that it can get a slice of UK style benefits.

    • Alexsandr

      disagree. immigration from EVERYWHERE needs to be controlled. We somply don’t have re resources for more people.

      • bugshead

        Yes I agree, but the immigration models adopted by immigration ‘cultures’ like Canada and Oz allow for the selective and highly controlled and necessary movement of economically valuable migrants. Not the massive migration waves from the 3rd world that are entitled to free access currently

        • mohdanga

          “…but the immigration models adopted by immigration ‘cultures’ like Canada and Oz allow for the selective and highly controlled and necessary movement of economically valuable migrants.”
          I wish. I’m Canadian and see every day how our supposedly ‘selective and highly controlled’ system works and it is the opposite of how it is described (for the most part). We have imported large numbers of low skilled, non-English speaking immigrants who ghettoize themselves and require massive gov’t spending to support them, to the tune of about $20 billion a year. For every doctor from Delhi there’s 10 Somalians who offer nothing.

          • bugshead

            Mmm, actually it’s very similar here but we have to be extremely careful how we express our concerns and fears about this in case we are vilified as ‘racists’

        • mrs1234

          Canada has Sharia

  • Donafugata

    Following the success of UKIP and the FN it would make sense for them to form an alliance to destroy the EU from within, this is how politics works.
    However, the FN are perceived as racists so should Farage be seen to so much as greet Mme. Le Pen with a handshake, he will be torn to shreads by the usual culprits as being the racist they always knew he was.

    This country doesn’t need any more migrants, whatever their colour, whatever their provenance.

    • mohdanga

      The prosperity of a country depends on the skill and education of its population, the most economically desirable countries in the world are all small (the only exception being the US but this was a number of years ago before massive debt, deficits and tens of millions of illegal immigrants being given citizenship). Large populations do not mean a better society so the mass immigration racket is a fraud.

    • an ex-tory voter

      The BBC in particular will paint Mme Le Pen as racist because unlike UKIP (of late!) no voice will be raised against the slur here in the UK.
      For the BBC and their political allies it is necessary to paint Mme Le Pen as racist precisely in order to prevent any alliance of the French and UK anti-EU parties.
      They will do the same with any other anti-EU party which is gaining traction and who has no defenders here in the UK. Divide and conquer is their intention.

  • Kitty MLB

    Yes we no need to speak about immigration. UKIP suggest we will get our country
    back when we hopefully leave the EU. Yes. we might get our sovereignty back.
    But they know we have lodgers from Islamic countries who have infringed upon our
    country and wrecked its foundations. We are now a minority in our own country.
    At least those immigrants from within the EU are Christian and our neighbours and
    understand our western culture.
    If one speaks about immigration they must be honest about it and mention all of it and not just areas that suit their individual parties.

    • HappyinHerts

      If you read the comment from Pootles (below) you will understand how desperately difficult it is to have the debate.

      • Kitty MLB

        Yes I have read that, and yes as Pootles very wisely said its practically impossible in todays politically correct leftie obsessed country where we cower to certain minorities ( who are no longer
        minorities) to easily speak of this subject. And its difficult for everyone,
        Labour have created so much harm and wrecked this country.
        The people who threaten us with the most harm are those from outside the EU. So making everything about immigration from within the EU
        is being very selective with the truth. And pointing fingers at others does not change that.
        Some Muslims in this country are scary, to put it childishly, and this
        is our country. They are guests.

        • Alexsandr

          lets say it here loud and clear.
          DISCUSSING IMMIGRATION IS NOT RACIST.

          • Kitty MLB

            Discussing Immigration is Not Racist.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            But the Camerluvvies think it’s racist. That’s one of the reasons they’re being liquidated as a party.

        • Donafugata

          Well said, Kitty.

    • saffrin

      Ban Halal meat, they’ll soon move on.

  • Andy

    If you read the article in todays The Times penned by Hutton and Milburn you will see it is business as usual. The political class, as demonstrated in the article, believe we are all wrong so should change our wicked views.

    • Blindsideflanker

      It is pretty desperate stuff, Hodge saying all the political parties should close ranks over immigration and peddle an establishment line ( if they haven’t been already) would be a gift to UKIP.

      • Andy

        Oh I heard that daft cow droning on. See, none of them actually ‘get it’. However, Labour does have a vested interest. After all mass immigration was designed to pack the electoral roll in their favour and that seems to have worked quite well. Don’t know why the Fascist Labour Party bother with elections: they would much prefer dictatorship and a one party state.

    • Grrr8

      your views are wicked

      • Andy

        So glad you agree.

  • Fergus Pickering

    I don’t want any more muslims here. Is that racist? It is? OK, I’m a racist then. Racists of the World unite!

    • Denis_Cooper

      Islam is a religion not a race; so, no, saying that you don’t want any more adherents of that religion here is not racist.

      • Fergus Pickering

        But I most particularly don’t want the bloody-minded black ones from Somalia. There. That must be racist. I knew I could get there.

        • Denis_Cooper

          Well done!

    • mohdanga

      Where do I sign up??

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Adolf may have been a blackguard, but he sure had the right idea about …

      • George Smiley

        That neither the Chinese nor the Japanese are any more inferior or superior than the Caucasoid races of Europe?! I eagerly await your “white women” and other bizarrely-obsessive four-eyed Oriental diatribe.

  • Blindsideflanker

    “The Ukip ‘earthquake’ must provoke a proper debate about immigration”

    But as we see, what might be loosely called the Common Purpose crowd, have in the last day or so resurfaced and attempting to kill off any immigration debate. We have had Hesletine, Milburn, Blair all attempting to smear anybody who dares challenge mass immigration.

  • global city

    It is impossible. The issues of mass migration and border control always gets reduced to an issue of being anti immigrant. It has been done to UKIP, Blair was doing so today on R4.

    We cannot escape the prison crafted by the PC zealots and cultural Marxists on this one. Who will step into the fray, knowing that they will be crushed by the intolerant accusations and demonisation before they had got any point across?

    Anyone who is not a trot and a BNP member will take one look at the way Farage has been demonised (thanks for compounding this, MSM) and run for the hills.

    • Blindsideflanker

      Indeed, the BBC seems to be working its’ contacts book over time to get mass immigration proponents on the air. Last night Newsnight went off to Hesletines country pile to give him the opportunity to put the boot into UKIP and immigration control. This morning they got Blair on the Today program peddling his pro EU pro immigration, and this afternoon they got Milburn peddling the same.

      The BBC seems to be at the heart of moves to kill off any momentum that UKIP might have got over the EU and mass immigration.

      • global city

        Thee report at the end of last night’s BBC news at ten was also the most bizzare piece. It was basically saying that we are all now much more continental, except for the ‘scared’… and so this means that we should all welcome being in political union and debasing our democracy.

        It really was the weirdest eurospin I’ve seen for a long time

        • Donafugata

          I saw that and thought it ludicrous.
          The BBC pushes the lie that because you like a cappuccino you must be OK with mass immigration.

  • an ex-tory voter

    I read this article with equanimity until I reached the phrase indicating that the problem of mass immigration had been “denied and derided by Labour and the Lib Dems”. There is a word missing from that phrase, the word is “Conservative”.

    The Conservatives under David Cameron are only now waking up to the problem of mass immigration. And even now they are having to be dragged kicking and screaming towards it. Of course that is no surprise, why should they be bothered, like the rest of the political and media elite it does not affect them, their families, their salaries, or their employment prospects.

    Well actually at long last it is beginning to affect their employment prospects. But, it only does so because UKIP can no longer be writtien of a fruitcakes, loons and closet racists and have forced the subject of mass immigration and the destruction it is visiting upon the social fabric of the nation, into the open.

    As some pr-t once said “sunlight is the best disinfectant”. Ironically, the sunlight now falling on his government’s record on the subject of mass-immigration must be about as welcome as “an open coffin lid at noon” is to Count Dracula.

    • Blindsideflanker

      “And even now they are having to be dragged kicking and screaming towards it.”

      Hardly, Cameron is still playing his tricks and slights of hand, here trying to deflect people’s attention to benefit tourism and away from immigration.

      • an ex-tory voter

        Exactly my point.
        Cameron will not come willingly to this subject because he does not and cannot control EU immigration. Also he is unable to control non EU immigration due to the influence of the Human Rights Act and it’s interpretation by the ECHR. On immigration, he is stuffed but dare not admit it.

  • HappyinHerts

    ‘They mainly disappear into the city centres and join their own communities in conditions that are increasingly unsatisfactory…’ I had to go to Luton a couple of weeks ago and felt like a stranger, an interloper in a foreign land. In the back streets I could have been in a developing country. I came home, deeply upset, but told no-one for fear of being branded a racist.

    • bugshead

      Precisely. Luton is a little India.

    • mohdanga

      “I came home, deeply upset, but told no-one for fear of being branded a racist.”
      Which is exactly what the lefty, multiculti, mass immigration proponents in media, academia and gov’t want!! Not wanting to feel like a stranger in the land of your birth is not racism!

      • Muttley

        Before we can have any sensible debate on the issue, I think the word “racist” will have to be detoxified. It has, in any case, become somewhat debased by the knee-jerk frequency with which it is thrown around, but a lot of neurolinguistic programming has gone on around it which will be hard to break down.

    • mrs1234

      Luton, most London boroughs, huge areas of Yorkshire, Lancashire and the Midlands. In all these places it is easy to feel like the foreigner. I really would not mind so much if there was real integration going on but there isn’t and one can’t help but feel a threat that our culture and way of life is being undermined slowly but very surely with the help and collusion of so many idiots.

    • Mike

      Its probably worse in the slums of Slough where hundreds of illegal shacks have been built in back yards to exploit immigrants (illegal and legal). Ironically, its their own kind doing the exploitation and not white landlords !!!

  • Pootles

    ‘This may be because everyone is terrified of accusations of racism. ‘ May be ? If you work in any sort of publicly funded organisation – local authorities, school, FE colleges, police, NHS, universities – then it isn’t ‘may be’ it just is. People have mortgages to pay, families to look after, and voicing the sort of concerns that Andrew Green and Migration Watch do is the quick route to harassment, career damage and job loss. Welcome to the UK in the 21st Century.

    • HappyinHerts

      How right you are.

    • telemachus

      This is only right and proper
      Green’s reprehensible post is a flagrant attempt to focus the issue from Europe to keeping out the third worlders of clear different visual ethnic origin

      • Pootles

        ‘right and proper’ ? Just what is that supposed to mean?

        • telemachus

          Prior to robust equality and diversity minorities were mercilessly bullied
          That included comments on immigration usually concluding ‘send em home’

          • Pootles

            Bullying is dealt with by the standards of civilised and polite expectation that is generally accepted behaviour in most formal settings. Being free to express views on politics, society and the state fall under the heading of ‘free speech’. Do you remember that idea?

            • telemachus

              Expressing views on immigration at work in front of immigrants, if it were not in contravention of equality and diversity, would be ridiculous in terms of team building
              Anyone in my team caught at this would face instant dismissal

              • john king

                So.. Why exactly should the working class, (ex) Labour voters make them feel welcome? (your team)?

              • colinintokyo

                “in terms of team building Anyone in my team caught at this would face instant dismissal”.

                That about sums up what your lot have done to our society really doesn’t it?

              • Pootles

                What team ? What team could you possibly lead ? And you clearly have little knowledge of employment law if you think ‘instant dismissal’ is an option.

      • john king

        So…. you sign out and recommend you’r own comments.
        Are you that insecure?

      • bwims

        fcuk off!

    • an ex-tory voter

      That is exactly the intention of those who promote “political correctness”. Thus far they have been extremely successful, but they are building a problem which will inevitably spill out of their control and onto the streets, where yet more “spilling” will occur.
      Muzzling the masses only works until the masses reach their “tipping point” after which “anything” goes.

      • HappyinHerts

        I worked for a local authority for 40 years and didn’t know I was ‘institutionally racist’ until about 15 years ago when I and my colleagues began to be sent on diversity awareness courses. All funded by the taxpayers, of course.

        • an ex-tory voter

          All part of the PC muzzling process. But, the process has failed and as time goes on the pressure for change grows. The socialists / marxists have no more chance of destroying national identity than Stalin had of destroying the Russian Orthodox Church, or exterminating the kulaks.

          Every one of us knows our roots and holds to them, it is a natural human emotion. The politically correct slur of “institutional racism” changes nothing. You know “who” you are and “where” you come from, just as your father, grandfather and great grandfather knew before you.

          • HappyinHerts

            ‘Institutional racism’ is a slur. It began to be used on local authority training courses after the Stephen Lawrence murder. That was a heinous crime and the police work sloppy and corrupt, but it was deeply unjust to extend the judgement on a few police officers to all council staff.

          • Pootles

            I fear you are being optimistic here. Stalin did exterminate the kulaks, and the Orthodox Church would have gone the same way if it hadn’t had some use. Fortunately for it, the Church was well used to rendering unto Caesar, an playing the long game. But it was a dam’ close thing.

            • an ex-tory voter

              Sadly, you are probably correct about the “kulaks”.
              Thankfully you cannot exterminate human ingenuity, ambition and entrepenurial spirit. So, despite Stalin’s slaughter a “new breed” of kulaks has arisen. They may no longer be known as kulaks and they may no longer simply till the soil, or tend to livestock, but they exist still.

              • Pootles

                Yes, indeed, ‘sadly’ is the word. That it is insufficient goes without saying, but all that barbarism is too much for words. I have a copy Douglas Smith’s, ‘Former People’, which is about the extermnation (genocide, really) of the Russian aristocracy (a very broad class), but I just can’t bring myself to read it. ‘The horror !’, as Kurtz exclaimed.

        • john king

          My son’s a lecturer and on his “diversity” course he was asked, “how would you treat an ethnic”. his answer was….”the same as the indigenous”. WRONG. He was labelled racist. It seems that the indigenous are of the lower order as the ethnic MUST be treated with preference.

          • mrs1234

            It is truly as scary as that. About 15 years ago my sister had to attend such a course where she and her colleagues were lectured by a member of an ethnic community on how the English had to understand the ways of the large local ethnic community in their area. What would be deemed offensive, how they must greet them blah blah etc etc… when she asked if there was a similar course being run for members of the ethnic community to acquaint them with the ways of the English she was met with incredulity and an emphatic no.

            • 2trueblue

              We are reaping the benefit of such idiocy ever since.
              In France if your child can not keep up in the national language you are given a time to get them up to speed or find another school. There are no translators for parents, you either understand or you understand! We pander to those who move here and make no effort to learn the language or integrate. That is the problem.

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      So the only time you can safely risk speaking out on “sensitive” topics is after you are no longer in paid employment, or otherwise is a situation where you can be blackmailed into towing the line.

      • George Smiley

        Agent provocateur alert.

      • bwims

        The USA, much famed for its “protected” freedom of speech, whilst not having protected employment (unless you are “diversity”) are in the same position.

        People there get fired all the time for saying things deemed to be sexist, racist etc. So much for freedom of speech.

      • evad666

        Local and Central Government have long supported apartheid here in the UK by such methods.

  • you_kid

    Oh look, how this debate has moved on.
    Only a year back punters would have blamed Labour Labour Labour for importing immigrant labour when it was blatantly obvious that we had and continue to suffer from a dire skills shortage here and big employers are *demanding* the best competitive workforce they can find.
    When the big and small cheeses cannot find it here, then they will look elsewhere. Have the punters acknowledged that now? Have frequent and repeated TV broadcasts (Call Central, Shamless, Jay Oh’s indigenous kid chefs just cannot hack it, Va Bene – you are fit, go street mate!) and so on not conclusively described what is wrong with the British psyche? If so, good.

    • Swiss Bob

      Says the troll who certainly doesn’t live anywhere like Tower Hamlets but would happily condemn everyone else to.

      Add if it’s a skills shortage then why wouldn’t you be happy to have a points system? Is it because you are being, at best completely disingenuous or as usual trolling?

      • you_kid

        Sir, a points system works? Where, dare I enquire further?

        • Swiss Bob

          The concept of free movement of persons came about with the signing of the Schengen Agreement in 1985 and the subsequent Schengen Convention in 1990, which initiated the abolition of border controls between participating countries. Being part of the EU legal and institutional framework, Schengen cooperation has gradually been extended to include most EU Member States as well as some non-EU countries.

          So as usual you are dribbling.

          • you_kid

            Excuse me? Do we control our borders or not? Do we have passport checks from Schengen member states or not? Who is the loon here, loon?

            • an ex-tory voter

              “control” presupposes an ability to prevent someone entering this country.
              Merely viewing and or scanning passports before waving visitors through, does not demonstrate “control”.

              • you_kid

                Yes, it does demonstrate exactly that. You scan the passport, no flag or otherwise pops up, the passport holder enters the country. That constitutes ‘control’.
                I mean, what are you otherwise suggesting we do? Are you North Korean by birth or in spirit?

                • Alexsandr

                  I would suggest if they don’t have a proper offer of a full time job then they should be told to go home. Who looks for work these days by knocking on doors. You register with an agency or apply electronically.

                • an ex-tory voter

                  It demonstrates “monitoring” not “control”

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …you and all your sockpuppets are a flock of loons, lad.

        • colinintokyo

          They weren’t ‘fought’ for . . . who ‘fought’ for them?

    • Bill_der_Berg

      There is no reason to pay too much attention to the yelps of employers about skills shortages. Even an arch eurofanatic such as Ed Miliband has noticed on the most potent attractions of immigrant labour for employers. As he put it –

      “What chance of rising living standards for all when unscrupulous firms can
      exploit workers from abroad to get around the minimum wage?

      “What chance of giving everyone a fair shot when recruitment agencies are
      allowed to recruit only from overseas, excluding those in the area from even
      hearing about the jobs?”

  • saffrin

    A must watch. The loss of British sovereignty explained. 50 years of treachery

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyBr9RNx4k0

    • pandaha

      This video is scary

  • albertcooper

    It all seems too late !

  • Swiss Bob

    The Ukip ‘earthquake’ must provoke a proper debate about immigration

    This is the same dribble coming from all the Establishment, if they want to remain electable they better start actually DOING something, the time for talking is over as far as a large percentage of the electorate are concerned.

    • Kitty MLB

      Oh dear, those who place themselves on such a pedestal are always heading for a epic fall.
      the ‘ Establishment’ you mean those who others elect to govern a country,
      after winning a general election.
      How will you cope if UKIP become the party of the working classes and join
      the ‘ Establishment’ and they will have to. And how will you explain the real
      immigration issues.

      • Swiss Bob

        I’m merely making the point that lip service is hardly going to wash.

        If that’s OK with you.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          Well, ok then, but watch yourself, mister. We are.

          Yours truly and etc,

          Mistress May and her army of snoopers and sledgehammer-wielding apparatchiks

        • Kitty MLB

          That is fine dear chap. I hope Conservatives are also allowed
          to make a teeny weeny point also. Even if we are the Establishment. God rest our souls.

      • Wessex Man

        I would have thought that you don’t need telling but here goes. We are the most densely populated country in the Western World, we don’t have the housing stock to house all those who need housing, our schools are overwhelmed as are our hospitals.

        It’s all very well Call me Dave and Georgie saying how wonderful it is to have low pay Gardeners and nannies, we the rest of the population live in the real sinking UK!

        • Kitty MLB

          Really I never knew ! and Nigel never told me. I thought all
          our troubles were from within the EU. So we won’t be getting
          country back even if we leave the EU because of our ghastly
          lodgers from outside the EU…Silly little muddleheaded me !

          • Jacky Treehorn

            At least we will be able to control our borders and who can and can’t just turn up on our doorstep.

            • ArchiePonsonby

              And kick out terrorists even if they do have a pet cat?

          • colinintokyo

            Did you actually read his post, it would appear not.

          • Mike

            They are two sides of the same coin and I had hoped you would understand that. The politically correct left have inundated us with immigrants from outside the EU and whilst that issue is at least recognised to some degree, we still have unfettered immigration from third world states inside the EU that cost the country dear.

            EU & Immigration are inextricably linked whilst we cant control our borders.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            Revolution in Britain only comes once every 400 years, so don`t squander the opportunity, Britisher pals. Forget cleaning the stable, burn it to the ground.

            • George Smiley

              Agent provocateur alert. UKIP and the People’s Army are entirely peaceful. The slightest hint of violence is what Lib/Lab/Con, Brussels, the Neocons and the American garrison all want to declare martial law, impose a curfew and suspend democracy and the law in England.

              • Jackthesmilingblack

                For those that missed it, here`s an example of George`s writing skills:

                “Like most other right-thinking, reasonable, rational, patriotic-minded good true British subjects, I would be more than happy to believe otherwise and change my mind accordingly, if the mostly Pakistanis of—and the sons and daughters of the other never-entirely-been-that-welcomed guest workers now in—the West Riding of Yorkshire, Lancashire, the Midlands, Leics., Cambs. and Greater London and Middlesex were happy to do the decent, honourable and patriotic thing for once, instead of keep on block-voting back in the treasonous Labour, Lib Dem and George “taking-the-proverbial” Galloway lot!”

                All one sentence, note. Anyone got a clue what he`s on about? Couple of cans short of a six-pack doesn`t come close.
                Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

                • George Smiley

                  Obviously a schizophrenic when someone begins to equate writing a moderately-lengthed comment with being wrong, or with some kind of a crime or a mental illness; ditto for the “Jack, the Japan Alps Plonker” bit. What is that all about?! Who does he think he is?!

                  We ALL know that you learnt your “English” from YouTube and Yahoo!, “Britisher pal” ! Unfortunately, we are not all under-25-year-old American-English trolls like you are!

                • Jackthesmilingblack

                  You`re just making it worse for yourself by removing that last vestige of doubt as to your deranged mental state. Face it Jock, you belong in a mental health institution.

                • George Smiley

                  A Japanese schizophrenic trying to use a strange form of American English to insult a true home whilst calling himself “a Japanese Alps Brit”.

                • Jackthesmilingblack

                  And this is the deranged lunatic that presumed to correct the written English of other Internet correspondents.
                  What are you Jock, half Chinese, half Indian, half witted…?

                • George Smiley

                  Your English is otherwise horrendous but for your immaculate (but often American) spelling! Give it up and give it a rest! Never had been British, and never will be British (and you were banned from the stupid Guardian because you are obviously so much of an halfwit that you can’t possibly debate without almost-instantly resorting to vitriolic, ad-hominem personal abuse! Barring the odd bits of information gleaned mostly from David Icke and other conspiracy-theory sites, you obviously have largely nothing, sweet F.A., nowt to say!)

    • john king

      I think it’s more a case of look like they’re doing something.

  • Mukkinese

    “Earthquake”?

    You wish. with less than 11% of the electorate even bothering to go and vote for UKIP, yes and less for each of the other parties, it hardly shows a popular clamouring for an in-out referendum or any of the answers to the E.U.’s problems on offer.

    Another victory for apathy and the shallow, short-sighted lack of imagination that passes for politics today…

    • albertcooper

      Sour Grapes !

  • London Calling

    We have to talk about immigration without being accused of being racist first…..then we can have an adult conversation about the impact immigration has on our society and services………we have to care about what happens with open borders and population rsing beyond our means………..at last…bring the dabte on.:)

    • Grrr8

      but u are a racist dear boy, be loud and proud of it

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