Coffee House

It was the immigration issue wot won it for Ukip

26 May 2014

3:13 AM

26 May 2014

3:13 AM

Ukip have triumphed in the UK European Elections. The BBC project that Ukip’s national share of the vote will be 28 per cent ahead of Labour on 25 per cent and the Tories on 24 per cent with the Greens on 8 per cent beating the Lib Dems who are on the 7 per cent into 4th.

This is the first time that anyone other than Labour or the Conservatives has won a nationwide election in more than a century. Nigel Farage and his party has given the British political system a mighty shake this morning. They have demonstrated that, in these elections at least, they can put together a coalition that can defeat both main parties.

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The big development in this campaign has been Ukip making inroads into the Labour electoral base. The Ukip vote is no longer just made up of disaffected Tories worried about the loss of sovereignty.

Ukip has done this by putting immigration at the centre of its message. Ukip has a unique selling point on immigration because it wants to leave the EU. This means that, unlike the other parties, it can claim it would stop EU immigration into Britain. No other party can make that pledge because it is incompatible with the UK remaining in the EU.

There were, obviously, other factors behind the Ukip vote. The party undoubtedly benefitted from the anti-politics mood in the country, the desire to give the political establishment a kicking. While the fact that wages have stagnated under both Gordon Brown’s government and the coalition also contributed to the party’s appeal.

Ukip’s victory will lead to a lot of soul-searching in Westminster. Labour will wonder how they as the main opposition party have failed to win these elections; no opposition party has ever won a general election without winning the preceding European Election. For their part, the Tories will worry that they have lost the mantle of being Britain’s Eurosceptic party. As for the Liberal Democrats, this result shows just how far they have fallen nationally. ​


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Show comments
  • swatnan

    On a 35% turn out; nothing to crow about. Means that 1 in 3 didn’t even bother to vote.
    Not really a mandate for anything really. The wretchedness of British citizens to turn out is simply appalling, and needs to be addressed pronto. Why bother giving them the vote if they are not even bothered to exercise it

  • Ganpati23

    Racist, xenophobic and fascist anti-EU parties make gains across Europe.

    In a recession, some Europeans turn fascist.

    There you go.

    Two questions:

    1) Why is it only the right-wing nut-jobs that want to leave?
    2) What makes the ‘kippers think their protest movement is so far removed from the NF in France, the DPP in Denmark etc?

    I know you’d hate admitting you have anything in common with continentals who haven’t the decency to speak English, but you don’t really imagine that your voters aren’t motivated by the same fears as the other anti-EU nationalists, do you?

    Though given your record at self-delusion, I wouldn’t be surprised.

    • Bill_der_Berg

      Three questions:

      i) Why is it that you have never looked at opinion polls about public attitudes to leaving the EU?

      ii) Why have you not heard of Eurosceptic left-wing parties?

      iii) Why are you pretending to have compared UKIP, NF and DPP policies and found them to be much the same?

      Thanking you in advance for your answers.

      • Ganpati23

        1) I have. I get the yougov daily briefing, and there’s never been a majority for exit.
        2) I have, but they are a minority. It’s only right-wing populism that’s capable of building a large enough coalition to get noticed.
        3) I’m not pretending. Ant-EU, anti-immigrant, distaste for a metropolitan elite, fear of the other, petty-nationalist, large racist, homophobic, reactionary fringes.

        Not difficult, is it?

        • James Lovelace

          The BNP and the FN are socialists. Not too dissimilar from the socialists Mussolini who went on to form the Fascist Party, and the socialist Hitler who went on to form the National Socialist German Workers Party.

          But you Leftists refuse to recognise that fascism and national socialism are your siblings, not ours.

          UKIP are akin Geert Wilders Freedom Party in Holland and the Freedom Party in Austria.

          • Bill_der_Berg

            Nigel Farage has ruled out the possibility of belonging to the same bloc as the Dutch and Austrian parties because he finds them objectionable.

        • Bill_der_Berg

          I) You are wrong about that, but leaving that aside, if you have looked at the percentage in favour of exit, is it likely that they are all right-wing nut-jobs?

          2) So much for ‘only right-wing nut jobs’.

          3) So you were just spouting hot air.

          I knew that we would get there in the end.

        • Trofim

          Tony Benn was in favour of not belonging to the EU. Here’s another right-wing nutjob who favoured exit:

          http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7953438.stm

          In the 1970’s many lefties were opposed to the EU. And, could you let me know what you mean by populism? To me, it means taking notice of the masses. Used by the left it seems to a general term of abuse, like our old friend “racist”.

        • mohdanga

          Why is it ‘racist’ for the host population of a country to want to keep its own culture and customs intact? Do you agree that there should be massive white, English speaking, Christian immigration to India,Pakistan, Somalia and the Middle East, that the host population there should be forced to accept it, pay for it and not be allowed to criticize it on penalty of being arrested for ‘hate crimes’??
          Is having a ‘distaste for a metropolitan elite’ the new thought crime amongst you lefties?? Seems the metropolitan elite hold little regard for the vast majority of the citizenry so they deserve the ‘distaste’ they are getting.

    • No1important

      See I can’t take you seriously if you label those that want out of the EU as racist, xenophobic and fascist. I voted for the referendum party at 18 years of age, all I want is my say (i’ve never been consulted), the EU is anti democratic, corrupt, despotic, intrusive and an outdated over arching bureaucratic elitist model of government. There is no such thing as a European identity and no amount of pressure from a bunch of European ideologues can foist a pseudo European identity on 28 separate nations with disparate cultures formed on 2000 plus years of history.

      I am neither a racist or a fascist, I am just an ordinary everyday guy, I have no problem with Europeans they are people the same as I, but I do not wish to be ruled from a remote parliament that I can neither affect nor has any interest in listening to the people of Europe where it does not align with their own agenda.

      Over intrusive and controlling legislation proscribing everything from the labelling of food to working of internet search engines makes the EU less competitive, allowing fast uncontrolled movement of people from one part of the EU to the next creates social stresses because it puts strains on infrastructure, and services and cultural clashes. This is not racism it is common sense. UKIP are not anti immigration and neither am I, I am for controlled immigration of those that add value to our society and at levels our society can absorb and support.

      It is you that has the prejudice of those that for legitimate reasons do not like what the EU is and how it treats it’s citizens and tries to control their lives. May be it is you that needs to broaden your thinking.

      • Ganpati23

        Yes, you voted referendum, and I bet you have to hold your nose to vote Ukip given their views.

        Wanting to leave the EU is not racists. The ideology of the FN is.

        As are Farridge’s comments about foreign languages on the train, about Romanians next door, etc and all those tweets from Holocaust deniers, anti-Muslim rants etc from is members/supporters/candidates.

        There is a core (maybe including you) that are free market libertarians who want to leave the EU as the naively believe we can become Singapore, who don’t have a racist bone in their body.

        They believe in controlled immigration, and don’t care what colour or religion the immigrant is.

        But the two streams have merged.

        FN, from just being racist, is now getting the anti-EU and anti-metropolitan protest votes.

        Ukip, form being anti-EU, is now getting the racist vote because getting out of the EU means chucking out lots of East Europeans and nudge-nudge-wink-wink look at the tweets of our candidates, we think the same as you about Muslims.

        You could say that Ukip has been hijacked by racists if they didn’t pander so clearly to prejudice, nationalism and fear of the other.

        Now why do you think No2EU – the TU backed anti-EU campaign – which gives good, anti-EU people a home is doing so badly?

        It wants to leave the EU. It just doesn’t support racism.

        But they all voted Ukip instead.

        Including old labour voters whose interests would better looked after by the unions than a free-market city boy.

        Why?

        I dunno. Both hate the EU. One hates foreigners, gays and Muslims too.

        I wonder which one won……

        But nothing to do with racism, no!

    • Laguna Beach Fogey

      You’re clearly rattled by the UKIP victory.

  • Media Darling

    It is the lack of trust in the political process wot won it. At 34% turnout, only 10% of voters side with UKiP. The real issue here is how to get us, normal folks, to vote.

  • umberto

    It wasn’t immigration issue or racism. Iwas matter of national sovereignty.
    The illustrated left doesn’t understand because their model of State is the Soviet Superstate model, and they want the EU become a kind of Fabian Soviet Union Superstate and under-educated left wants just keep the Welfare Apparat that will no longer be possible because this cripto – dictatorial bureaurocracy and the cleptocracy of the soutrhern States will destroy the free enterpise economy, as itas in the Soviet Union. The common people discerning about all it, has voted UKIP

  • cartimandua

    “anti politics” should mean it is not the business of politicians to have an “opinion” on every facet of life. They should enable personal liberty and then leave it be.
    We must have a population policy not just about immigration but we need to stop paying people to have more than 2 children each.

    • Trofim

      It is, indeed, staggering, that we in the UK, and in the world generally, have a laissez-faire attitude to baby-making in the 21st century. I have a copy of The Observer magazine from the early sixties, expressing fears that the human population might rise to 3 billion.

      • Clibnarii

        Well actually I believe the native white population of the U.K has a birth rate of only 1.6, well below the replacement level. As for the various non-white communities in the U.K, it varies widely.

        According to the BBC its like this.

        Black (Mixed): 49%

        Black (African): 37%

        Bangladeshi: 30%

        Pakistani: 13%

        Chinese: 5%

        Indian: 4%

        White: 1%

        Black (Caribbean): 0%

        Basically, as I said, some immigrants groups are different from others.

  • global city

    The tories have only ever squatted on the mantle of ‘the eurosceptic party’. The Tories have been at the heart of the project, as they are the party of the national elite. I hope that come 2020 they no longer exist.

  • global city

    The most important fat that UKIP must press home from now on is that if their presence is allowed to dwindle away then so will the referendum.

    Decent minded Tory eurosceptics have to understand this also. Your leader has only contempt for your dreams.

    If UKIP disappear then so will the referendum… drum that into your heads.

  • Iain Hill

    Immigration is only one factor behind UKIPs success. Just as many people just want to protest about the crony governmental system and the corporate kleptocracy which has replaced democracy here and in Europe. We need to rid ourselves of a system in which every policy is viewed simply through a prism which identifies the potential for making a profit, usually at the expense of the public interest. A fairer distribution of benefits and financial burdens is long overdue. Bring on Piketty!

  • malkovichmalkovich

    Why An X For UKIP Is A Vote For Profit Over People
    http://thequietus.com/articles/15330-ukip-economic-policies

  • Lady Magdalene

    Just think how much better the result would have been for UKIP if the Electoral Commission hadn’t permitted the spoiler party
    “An Independence from Europe” on the ballot paper.
    I reckon that was probably worth another percentage point or two and may another MEP or two.
    Still – just more proof that the Establishment closed ranks to do whatever it could to try and prevent UKIP from winning …..and failed.

    • Conway

      Nattrass and Sinclaire still lost their seats despite the shenanigans.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Millipede, insect.
    Miliband, …
    As you were.

  • Laguna Beach Fogey

    UKIP are leading the national liberation struggle against the occupation government in Westminster, which uses immigrants as mercenaries and ‘shock-troops’ against the indigenous population.

    Quite a volatile situation, actually.

    • Clibnarii

      ^^^See, its people like you, being UKIP supporters, using such language, that makes people call the UKIP racist.

      • Laguna Beach Fogey

        Why do you support the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population?

        • Clibnarii

          Ethnic Cleansing implies a forced removal of the population through deportation or murder, that isn’t happening here. Your terms imply a war of sorts, any changes occurring in the U.K as regards demographics is largely non-violent, you down have hordes of immigrants breaking through walls wielding weapons.

          Limited immigration will mean that the ethnic consistency of the U.K will remain largely the same for a very long time. Calm down, I’m not suggesting we let the whole world in either. I’m just saying I don’t like the immigration policy of the BNP and such.

  • manonthebus

    I’m sure that the original idea of open borders within a limited number EU countries made some sense when we were at more or less the same level of economic activity. The problem is that the main cabal of EU members (less the UK) have encouraged more and more of the poorer European countries to join when they were clearly well below a level of economic activity that would add to the EU’s strength, rather than require huge subsidies from others. Now the inevitable has happened. Poor Europeans move to wealthier EU countries to take advantage of their success, without the consent of the people in those countries. At the moment, we in the UK have only one political party which wants to redress this issue. In order to oppose that party, the existing parties merely choose to accuse the new party of racism. That is their only argument. It is a poor one and isn’t cutting as much ice as it once would have done.

    • cartimandua

      Exactly. If the EU had been and stayed The UK, France, and Germany it would have been fine.

      • Conway

        It started out as Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemburg) before France and Germany joined. You seem to wish to exclude them in your version.

        • cartimandua

          Are those countries net contributors? We get along with all the northern EU countries very well but that doesn’t mean we want to pay for it all and once they included the poor southern countries and the post Soviet countries disaster all round.
          Poles are the largest foreign group in our prisons.
          We spend 35 million per year having to lock them up because Poland doesn’t have the capacity to do it.

          • Clibnarii

            To be fair, it also depends on the socio-economic level of immigrants. Even in poor countries, there are some educated, people who are capable of high earning jobs and paying taxes well in excess of what they take.

            I am talking about a cosmopolitan, educated elite, sufficiently globalization to be let into Britain and be expected to integrate. There is scope for limited and selective immigration into Britain.

            What the U.K has been doing is g is importing the foreign version of Chavs.

  • thresholdweller

    People speaking with different languages and dressing differently are the visible signs that there is rapid change in the world and many are frightened and insecure. I don’t hear UKIP say anything which can solve the insecurity. The left say plan and help people. The honest right say, you are own, get used to it.

    • mohdanga

      “People speaking with different languages and dressing differently are the visible signs that there is rapid change in the world and many are frightened and insecure.”
      Umm, this has always existed it’s just that the indigenous populations of Western Europe and the UK are fed up with millions of these 3rd world enrichers being allowed in, keeping their own customs, expressing disdain for the host population which support them. White immigration of the same magnitude to these non-white countries would be met with howls of outrage from the same dense PC politicians, media and ‘academic experts’ that push multiculturalism and mass immigration.

      • thresholdweller

        And UKIP would do what? What would they do about social care for the elderly, transport infrastructure, education, energy provision, the NHS, housing, the regions……….?

        • cartimandua

          You assume a great many things must be organized by government.

          • thresholdweller

            I’m quite happy for them to say openly, sort it out yourself. I’m not sure that many of their voters would be happy though.

            • Clibnarii

              And all non-white immigrants are muslims? Or all asians muslims?

        • mohdanga

          So continuing a policy of mass immigration, which is swamping all the programs you mention, will increase the effectiveness of these policies. OK.

          • thresholdweller

            Sometimes immigration causes problems, sometimes it is the solution. I’m afraid I don’t see the country as bleakly as you apparently do. England, the United Kingdom or Europe – a pretty good place to live.

            • James Lovelace

              “Sometimes immigration causes problems, sometimes it is the solution. I’m afraid I don’t see the country as bleakly as you apparently do. England, the United Kingdom or Europe – a pretty good place to live.”

              100,000 women/girls in Britain have had their genitals mutilated.

              10,000 white schoolgirls have been groomed/raped/prostituted by muslim gangs.

              332 muslims have been convicted of terrorism.

              Gay people have been forced out of east London over a period of 20 years.

              70% of British muslims want gays criminalised and “punished”.

              Electoral fraud is so bad in muslim areas, that 125 polling stations in Tower Hamlets had police there.

              All this with muslims just 5% of the population of Britain.

              50% of racist murders in the UK have white people as the victims (that means those who 3/20ths of the population are doing 50% of the racist murders, and these killers are not white).

              Over 50% of the attacks on jews in London come from immigrants/muslims/arabs.

              • thresholdweller

                I’m not sure about your sources for the figures that you quote, but certainly women’s rights are important and need supporting. Similarly children should, ideally, be able to grow up free from abuse in a loving, caring environment. People whose sexuality does not conform to man plus woman in life-long ties, should be allowed to develop relationships with those who share their enthusiasm. Fraud and corruption should be exposed and prosecuted.
                I don’t really hear UKIP speaking constructively about much of this. Their few policies often seem to be as superficially popular, but thin and changeable, as those I hear in many a pub. And I wouldn’t vote for them.

                • James Lovelace

                  References for all those statistics can be given. And if the media had been doing their job, everyone would know those stats and would have been discussing them for years.

                • thresholdweller

                  Haven’t these issues been discussed for years? Meanwhile, what would UKIP do positively about running the country? Roads, healthcare, the elderly, education, energy, …..?

                • James Lovelace

                  you, 18 hours ago:
                  “I’m not sure about your sources for the figures that you quote, ”

                  you, now:
                  “Haven’t these issues been discussed for years?”

                  If these issues had been discussed for years, you would have known about 100k FGM victims, about 10k grooming gang victims, about the universal (and violent) homophobia from muslims, about the high incidence of violent jew-hatred from muslims, about the 332 muslims convicted of terrorism.

                  When you are told that the stats you doubt can all be evidenced, you try to change the subject.

                  The point is this: the elite who run this country have ensured that all these things should be concealed by the media and not discussed. UKIP is a popular revolution AGAINST the elite.

                  I doubt most people who support UKIP know the facts about all the ways in which the polticians and the authorities have covered up the “cultural enrichment” from immigrants.

                • thresholdweller

                  Read the 2 quotes again. They do not contradict. Your figures may or may not be true. Hence I asked for sources. Or they may be urban myths. The issues have certainly been discussed ad nauseum, sometimes with light, always with heat.
                  But, to get back to my original point. We are living in times of rapid change with travel and technology making this inevitable. Many people will want to find a better life, whether it be Poles coming to Britain, British goiing to Australia, Africans going to Italy, Koreans going to the US…..Free markets provide opportunities but also bring insecurities. UKIP have exploited these insecurities, but I haven’t heard what they would do if in power about the major issues in my life – some which I listed earlier.
                  The issues you mentioned regarding Islam, don’t seem to fit the Muslims that I know. Of course, grooming is disgusting whether carried out by muslims, catholics, schoolteachers, TV personalities, singers in Welsh rock bands…. The vast majority of these groups are decent people, but there are bad apples everywhere. Terrorism needs to be dealt with whether it is Islamic, White Supremicist, Irish Nationalist or Loyalist, etc etc etc.
                  We have laws, police, courts etc to deal with the issues.
                  Now we could brick up the Channel Tunnel, send gun boats out into the channel, and protect island Britain. There would still be the issue of running the country and I would like UKIP to start talking about this.

    • cartimandua

      Its not a “feeling” its a reality that migrations create failed states.

      • Clibnarii

        Depends really, there have been settler countries built on migration. Even here in the U.K, Indian and Chinese students do significantly better than other ethnic groups (including White British) on A level results, no point painting everyone with the same brush.

        • cartimandua

          It depends on the A levels. If they are taking them in Hindi and Chinese….

          • Clibnarii

            Actually, the same study, done by Cambridge assessments, showed that Chinese and Indian students showed a preference for maths and science subjects vs. other ethnic groups.

            interestingly it shows the performance of those from mixed Chinese-White, or Indian-White backgrounds to be intermediate between those of British Whites and Indian’s or Chinese. All the data is here.

            http://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/Images/109903-uptake-of-gcse-and-a-level-subjects-in-england-by-ethnic-group-2007.pdf

            • cartimandua

              Some work was done recently on how Chinese language links quite easily to Mathematics.
              I don’t know about Indians other than my son recently had to have in his University group an Indian student.
              This group was doing a Masters in Engineering end of course project.
              The Indian student refused to do any work at all and copied things from WIKI as his part of the project possibly sinking the hope of 1sts for the rest.
              My comment actually referred to the wheeze where some kids are allowed to take GCSEs in their home languages.
              It makes the schools results look good.
              Pro immigration people then use those results to say “look how clever they are”.

              • Clibnarii

                So basically you have sample size of ONE and tell me there is one bad Indian student therefore there can’t be any good Indian students? I have studied with tons of Lazy White British students, what is your point?

                I repeat, as in the link I stated, If anything the heavy uptake of maths and science by Chinese and Indian students indicates that the these groups are taking on solid subjects and doing well in them. In fact, the study showed that Indian and Chinese students also showed a preference for English Literature vs. other ethnic groups.

                Look at page 51 of that document, neither Mandarin or Hindi is a preferred subject type for Chinese or Indian students respectively.

                Conversely, English Literature was one of the preferred subjects for White British students. So what we are seeing is that despite Chinese and Indian students not preferring to study their own language at GCSE and A level and despite White British students preferring to take up their own language at GCSE and A level, The White British students are being outperformed.

                If anything, as per the evidence, the advantage of taking a native language should benefit White British, not the Chinese/Indians, yet despite them taking English as one of their preferred subjects, even with this advantage, white British students are not able to offset the advantage that Indian/Chinese students have.

  • cargill55

    Watching chuka ummuna from labour on BBC continuing his appalling misrepresenting anti UKIP smears on UKIP immigration policy.
    They never learn do they, these Liblabcon anti British parasites?

  • misomiso

    Even now, after the UKIP earthquake, the main stream politicians will
    not talk about immigration, and when they are forced to talk about it
    they only off meaningless and cosmetic change, which will not give the
    UK control of its borders. They never mention the words ‘Freedom of
    Movement.

    Make them say where they stand on Freedom of Movement.

  • Lucy Sky Diamonds

    Cameron – benefits tourism has nothing to do with it. We dont want free movement full stop!

  • https://belasariust.wordpress.com/ solly gratia

    Why won’t the commentariat mention same-sex marriage? And not just that issue, but the way it was forced down our throats by the pressminster elites.
    It’s the democracy, stupid! to coin a phrase.

    • cartimandua

      Yes and most people are for it. That is one of those things which politicians should enable and then not have an opinion about.
      As long as the nastier faith groups “don’t have to” the nicer ones should be “allowed to” move along.
      They should however ban “covering” for “modesty” as it loads everyone else with the costs of the poor health it creates.

      • Conway

        If people are asked about “equality” they are going to say yes for fear of being labelled “nasty”. Except that “equal marriage” isn’t, in fact, equal at all. What should have been done was tweak civil partnerships if there were any gaps in pension provision, etc and leave it at that, not redefine an institution that had served well for centuries.

        • cartimandua

          Ukip should have enabled nicer faith groups to act on their faith and then had “no opinion”. No one under 60 will vote for them because it makes Ukip look like a group of stupid religious fwits and old buffers.
          Most people in the UK were and are “for” gay marriage for good reasons.
          Do the antis uphold freedom of belief for all or only for themselves?

        • James Lovelace

          None of my gay friends have taken up same-sex marriage or intends to.

          Some of my gay friends took up civil partnership. Most did not.

          Gays were not collectively demanding same-sex marriage. It is something that was used by LibLabCon to distract from the massive economic problems Britain faces. LibLabCon must be laughing at how easily distracted the Demos was.

  • rolandfleming

    Lib Dems came 5th not 4th as stated in first paragraph.

  • John Smith

    People are fed up with the EU! Those that voted for the Common Market, all those years ago, feel they have let the country down.
    By foisting this hopeless political construct on the people.

    Europe & its people are fine, its the way we have ceded political control to Brussels and unelected socialists

    • Wessex Man

      I never voted for it, I voted to get out of it, let’s not forget that lying cheating politicians from all of the then political parties conned most of the people!
      They never change, their children just take their place!

      • John Smith

        Benefit of hindsight is always useful Back then our economy was in a bad way after another attack of socialism

  • Blindsideflanker

    It was the stupid Cameron modernisers wot won it for UKIP.

    They thought Conservative voters had no where to go when they went off to do their metrosexual metropolitan thing, Wrong.

    They thought they could play fast a loose with immigration. Wrong.

    They thought they could fob off the electorate with a vacuous renegotiation. Wrong.

    • James Lovelace

      The LibLabCon cartel was happy with 40% of the electorate choosing to disenfranchise themselves and not vote in general elections.

      UKIP are drawing support not just from Tories. I have friends who were Labour, LibDem and even SWP who switched to UKIP. I’m sure that those who have not voted in past elections will also now start to wake up to the fact they are getting choice for the first times since Thatcher was stabbed in the back by her own party.

  • Trofim

    Actually under “immigration” as a cover term there is also Islam and Muslims. But when a media person sticks a mike under our nose, although it is just about permissible to say “immigration”, the I and M words are ones we still don’t feel able to mention aloud as things we have concerns about.

    • Shazza

      Unfortunately I cannot remember where, last week I read that now about 50% of Dutch Somalis now live in the UK or I would provide a link. Anyone know?

      Nail on the head Trofim, re the I and M words.
      Paris and other large French cities and nightly carbeques, attacks on Police, no-go zones for non-Ms and Police.
      Increasing attacks on Jews in Malmo, Sweden, France, Belgium and other European countries.
      Creeping sharia and I-tion of the UK and other EU countries.

      Farage has now legitimised discussions which were formerly considered taboo and for this I congratulate him.

      • James Lovelace

        The French media are banned from reporting on the urban terrorism in the “sensitive zones”.

        Some 10 years ago, the entire Somali population moved from Germany to Leicester, citing the fact that Britain places no restrictions at all on muslims.

        Even in London, over 50% of the attacks on jews are by muslims/arabs. I know jews who have already left London and gone to live in Israel and Canada rather than face the bleak future that jews in Britain and the rest of Europe face.

        • Shazza

          I fear we are watching The Fall of the Roman Empire all over again.
          The Barbarians are at the gates and none of our ‘leaders’ gives a s***.

          • Clibnarii

            May I suggest picking up a history book and actually analysing the detailed causes for the fall of the Roman Empire?

            By the way do you know who those “Barbarians” were that the Romans referred to? The Franks, Celts and Germanic tribes that went on to found the major nations of Western Europe and to sustain the legacy of Greece, Rome and Western Civilisation. Yes, those “barbarians” include the Celtic and Anglo-Saxons as well.

            • Shazza

              Before that legacy came to fruition, we first had to go through the Dark Ages.
              Yes, I am well aware of the history and what brought about the fall of Rome and it certainly was not just the arrival of the barbari (it actually means anyone who lived outside Rome, not our literal meaning now) – the Roman legacy survived because anyone who adopted Roman culture and civilisation was considered Roman regardless of country of birth.
              The literal barbarians who are now at our civilised gates refuse to adopt our superior culture and as a result, we will not emerge from the New Dark Ages which is imminent.

              That is the point I was making.And that our leaders are complicit in this .

              • Clibnarii

                A lot of them don’t that is true, but some, typically the more educated, with the higher paying jobs, do. I know 2nd generation non-European migrants, who don’t even know the language of their parents and are essentially disconnected from their native culture, whose mores are almost entirely British.

                But yes, at the other extreme, there are who live in ghettos and can’t speak English properly. However these generally tend to be the more working class immigrant lot. Taxi drivers and Kebab Shop owners and the like.

                Thing is, even in Asia and Africa, the more well to do, middle class types have more access to the fruits of globalisation and through it to western culture, not only through the media, but through travel and education, the latter either borrowing heavily from the west or based in the west itself, such people have an easier time adapting and in a couple generations, are more or less culturally integrated.

                As for the romanization, it took a rather long time, that could be measured in centuries, with citizenship being extended to various ethnicities in turn. In comparison, certain socio-economic and ethnic subdivisions of immigrants have integrated a lot more quickly into western culture. This is similar to the Romanization process amongst the Barbarian tribes, wherein it was the elites that got Romanized first.

                As regards the dark ages, it only affected the western half of the empire, and then again, it wasn’t the Barbarians who were primarily responsible for it. In any case, the eastern half, integrated the Barbarians almost seamlessly and it was these Barbarian tribes that would be vital in perpetuating the subsequent Byzantine Empire.

                The Barbarian tribes had always been there, and in the end, Rome needed to pick certain groups of Barbarians, who were pro-romanization, to help fend off other groups of Barbarians. These pro-Roman barbarians would keep alive the torch of Christianity (by then the Roman religion) and Greco-Roman civilisation in general into later ages.

                Even amongst certain ethnic groups, some tribes were susceptible to Romanisation and some weren’t so for example amongst the Germans, the Visigoths went in for Romanisation, while the Heruls didn’t. The same applies here. Immigrants are not a big homogeneous group to lump all non-Britons into.

                They can be separated into fine partitions, it is surprising the U.K doesn’t make those distinctions now, considering its empire was based in large part on identifying division in native societies and allying with some of those natives groups to form alliances with.

                Let everyone in? I’m not saying that? Cherry pick some off the top? That’s what is needed. The Tories have already made changes so as to allow this for non-EU immigrants. Notwithstanding of course all the undesirable immigrant sub-types that are already here and have ghettoized, but thats another matter altogether.

                • Shazza

                  Of course I agree with your historical precise, of which I am aware.
                  My concern is what you spell out in your last sentence. I cannot see any phoenix rising from the devastation that ideology is inflicting on our Greco/Roman/Judeo/Christian freedom loving values and civilisation.
                  I sincerely hope I am wrong.

                • Clibnarii

                  Hence my example of the Byzantine?Eastern Roman Empire, which didn’t undergo a crash in the first place. Rather it seamlessly integrated the “Barbarians”. I feel the the limited, yet significant number of immigrants who truly want to assimilate/integrate, should not be denied the chance irrespective of their race, ethnicity. As long as they also have productive jobs that add to the countries economy and exchequer on the whole.

                  Keep in mind that western culture, despite resistance to it in many places, still has an strong “soft power” effect on the globe, much like Greco-Roman culture had on Europe and the Mediterranean region in ancient times.
                  Yes some communities, are resistant to it, but on my travels I have met enough individuals, enraptured by Western culture, to know that at least for some, assimilation or at least integration is possible. This is true on all continents that I have gone to, albiet to varying degrees.

                  Even in Muslim countries, youngsters aspire to a western lifestyle and values, however over there the oppressive clergy keeps them down, as they do here in the U.K, which has allowed some minority groups too much power to express their own culture at the Expense of the local British culture, and ironically is used to oppress members of their own society, and prevent them from getting the freedoms that western society should endure. So for example

                  While there are a significant number of undesirables, we need some way to sort them out, this would also help prevent a demographic death spiral while avoiding a large number of immigrants who refuse to integrate. It would also allow the benefit of getting some highly skilled and productive citizens, without the expense of training them through quality schooling and University.

                  A good starting point would a suitably complex and difficult citizenship test. Followed by some a vetting process, to assess the character and willingness to integrate, of the person. Of course the latter part is harder to implement but worth at least, a casual look into.

                • Shazza

                  I appreciate your thinking but I still feel it is too late.
                  Please go over to Telegraph Blogs (not behind the paywall) today and read Andrew Gilligan’s article on the voting in Tower Hamlets. Please read the comments below and specifically the one by ‘jacque44’ and let me have your opinion!

                • Clibnarii

                  Did you mean this comment?

                  “Rhaman’s supporters on his self-pitying – “everyone is being mean to me” page – see him as a man persecuted because….. people are critical of his voting tactics. What this reveals is that his followers are completely ignorant of democracy. Read their comments and you will read the voice of genuinely aggrieved? Are they angry because they have been rumbled? Or are they simply so unable to cope with a free society, they simply ignore its existence? There must be something to be understood from these indignant individuals. Compulsory classes on the democratic system should be a part of the education system”

                  I agree, tower hamlets have become sort of a Islamic emirate in the middle of London, but that was due to foolish immigration policies that failed to distinguish between immigrants, thus letting in a lot of the riff raff, primarily of south asian muslim origin, who then came to dominate the region and impose their own version of society in the middle of the British Capital.

                  I remember an Indian Woman, who was not an immigrant, but rather a resident of her native country tell me

                  ” It is amazing what kind of people you have let into the U.K, we would not want such types people in our own neighbourhoods in India, yet you let them in so freely here”

                  My personal theory? The worst of the lot have got strong political lobby, while the limited number of non-troublemaker immigrants have gotten shoved to one side, truly, it is the squeaky wheel that gets the oil. I remember attending a talk by Gita Sahgal once on the links between the Islamic Right and the Anglo American left. Essentially moderates and those in the non-white immigrant community who wish to integrate, are essentially ignored by liberal parties in favour of the more fundamentalist lot opposed to social integration in the U.K. This is quite a common phenomenon the world over in all spheres, a vocal, militant subsection hijacks a political platform while countless quieter, non-confrontational moderates are pushed aside.

                  I live in the west country and like much of the U.K, the population is over 90% white, race relations are good and in such regions, to allow a select number of high value non-white immigrants would do no harm and enrich the local councils is immigrants of suitable temperament, education and tax paying ability.

                • Shazza

                  No. It was about the segregation in Tower Hamlets.

      • Clibnarii

        The problem with immigration discussions is that they tend (especially on the internet) to swing from one extreme to the other. From being taboo on one hand, to far right wing trolls, incapable of intelligent discussion, screaming and spewing venom at the other.

    • James Lovelace

      “the I and M words are ones we still don’t feel able to mention aloud as things we have concerns about.”

      Even MI5, facing the worst terrorist threat in Britain’s history, dare not name islamic terrorism as such. MI5 calls it “international terrorism”, even when all the people convicted were living in Britain, and most of them are British citizens, and the crimes were occurring in Britain.

      https://www.mi5.gov.uk/home/the-threats/terrorism/international-terrorism/international-terrorist-plots/arrests-and-convictions.html

      The elite have made sure that we are not allowed to discuss the real problems. Therefore we end up fighting battles where codewords must be used to identify the problems.

      • Trofim

        Thanks for the link. It will wisely used by yours truly.

  • TRAV1S

    Wrong, it was Nigel Farage wot won it for UKiP. He is the only major politician who believes in what he says, the rest sound like phoneys.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      LibLabCon won it for UKIP.

      • Alexsandr

        and the MSM including this erstwhile august organ.

      • Wessex Man

        well both did really and the BBC, which really really should fund itself from subscription.

  • Jonathan Burns

    Good news in Scotland: 2 SNP MEP Separatists v 2 Labour, 1 Conservative and 1 UKIP MEP Unionists.

  • Kitty MLB

    I as a Conservative lady would just like to be allowed to say well done UKIP,
    you removed the crown Labour expected to wear. As oppositions usually do.
    I am sure UKIP will rattle the EU as they always do and Nigel Farage
    is always exceptional in Brussels.
    It seem the Lib Dems in particular received a tremendous thrashing..
    I am absolutely heartbroken about the dear little English Loving tree huggers.

    • rtj1211

      The results show that the increase in the Labour vote was only 1.2% less than that of UKIP, the Conservatives lost 4%, the BNP 5% and the Libdems 7%.

      In other words it was a bad night for the Government and the BNP and a good night for the Opposition.

      I do hope you realise that with 24% of the vote, the Conservatives hardly ‘represent the country’.

      Something for the nice little Tory Lady to ponder up to the General Election……

      • Alexsandr

        look again at the results. Get the results by region. Labour are only high in the national table because of their NE heartland and London. So they are hardly representative of the country either.
        As far as I see it the only truly national party now is UKIP

    • Shazza

      Well said and as usual Kitty, I am in agreement.

      I must confess I am a tad nervous about Newark…..

      • Wessex Man

        so you should be!

      • Kitty MLB

        We shall have to hope for the best. But if someone else wins they
        need to prove how they handle a bit of real responsibility.

  • colliemum

    You know full well, James, that ‘immigration’ is tied in with our EU membership.
    To write now that immigration is what it was all about is evading the issue.
    Btw – what happened to the meme pushed by all you hacks about UKIP being racist because one of the points they addressed was uncontrolled immigration because of our EU membership? Are you stepping back because this result would mean we’re all racist now?

  • terence patrick hewett

    The big news from Ireland is the rise of Sinn Fein and the independents.

  • terence patrick hewett

    Great results from Wales and Scotland: even London delivered a seat.

  • EschersStairs

    Perhaps the accession of UKIP is also the demise of political correctness. We can live in hope.

    • telemachus

      So we can forget embracing ethnic minorities at work

      • EschersStairs

        The argument has never been about stopping. It always been about controlling immigration. Why do you persist with that straw man??

        • mohdanga

          Why should stopping immigration even be an issue? Should a country and gov’t not have the ability to determine whom and how many are allowed in? This nonsense that because immigration occurred in the past it should continue ad infinitum until the country is destroyed is ridiculous. Japan allows no immigration yet the press does not seem to have any issue with this.

          • EschersStairs

            Economically speaking, stopping immigration for developed nations is a sure way to speed up problems associated with an aging population. Not surprisingly Japan is also a perfect example of these problems.

            • mohdanga

              So when does the immigration Ponzi scheme end? The larger the population, the more immigrants are needed, who then put a strain on social services thus meaning even more immigrants jammed into a fixed space (not to mention the cultural and social ramifications of more non-western immigrants). Immigrants get old, their use of taxpayer funded social programs exceeds by a large amount the tax they contribute to the system…how is this beneficial?
              If a country were to allow one highly skilled immigrant in who contributes more than he takes then the system works. It does not work when one lowly skilled, lowly paid immigrant arrives with extended family of 10 in tow who immediately jump into the gov’t funded health, education and housing system.
              Japan’s problem is a falling birthrate, not a lack of immigrants. Western political elites think that importing 3rd world detrius will make up for the falling indigenous birth rate…it doesn’t work!!

              • Clibnarii

                All kinds of immigrants come from the 3rd world. Some are highly skilled and educated, and due to their well paying jobs contribute significantly more than they take from social services, ultimately its a question of money to pay for such services, though I feel this variety may a minority of the 3rd world immigration.

                Japan’s Low Birth rate, and resistance to immigration has put them in a 2 decade long economic slowdown. Controlled immigration would have relieved some of the pressure.

      • Grey Wolf

        Silly man, the comment was about Political Correctness.
        Why are you being deliberately provocative and / or facetious?

        • Wessex Man

          because tele ran of real debating points long ago.

      • colliemum

        Embracing anybody at work, ethnic minorities or not, surely is sexual harassment.

      • Lucy Sky Diamonds

        We dont have to hug and kiss them every morning!

      • Bill_der_Berg

        I have tried it and have not forgotten it. Her name was… never mind.

    • Alexsandr

      PC gets right up my nose. Terms that accurately and inoffensively describe people in the 70’s have been deemed insulting by the faceless lot. And the ‘right on’ term to use keeps changing so often an old f@rt like me cant keep up.

      • EschersStairs

        I can’t keep up either.
        But I blame that mostly on the fact that I can’t bear to listen to enough state sponsored media, and won’t consciously accept a lobotomy.

  • Grey Wolf

    Its a GREAT day for Great Britain!

    Lib Dems decimated for serially lying to their voters.
    Tory weasels licking their wounds.
    Labour sulking in a corner.
    Clegg probably hiding in a bathroom crying over the phone to Cameron, both afraid of losing their leadership.

    Good job, Nigel Farage!

    • telemachus

      Labour do not skulk or sulk
      Attack mode starts from here

      • Grey Wolf

        Yeah, but first lick those wounds clean

        • telemachus

          No
          Coiled ready to spring

          • starfish

            Coiled down more like..

          • Wessex Man

            very rusty

            • Icebow

              It’s pointless to keep responding to this creature. Alternatively, everyone could respond with ‘Hi Gollum! Have a nice day’ every time, until it goes away.

          • Bill_der_Berg

            Ed Milliband as Zebedee.

          • EschersStairs

            I think the phrase is “like a tightly coiled string”

      • terence patrick hewett

        Will they make the same mistake as the Tories? I think not.

      • rtj1211

        And Ed Miliband starts from the inestimably strong position of having personally overseen the Climate Change Act, without question the most corrupt, irresponsible and fiscally insane act carried out by any Cabinet Minister in my lifetime.

        • Shazza

          The Climate Change Act comes second to their disastrous mass immigration aka population replacement policy which was ruthlessly enforced on a reluctant and cowed indigenous population.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …and the Camerloons embrace both policies, both the global warmingist stupidity and the massive, unfettered immigration.

      • Lucy Sky Diamonds

        Put the gun against your head then and get it over with!

      • Alexsandr

        but chickup made it clear that it was the delivery of the message that was wrong, not the message. He is so wrong. the pro EU pro mass immigration anti democratic message has been rejected. If LIBLABCON dont rewrite their policies they are doomed.

      • David

        Ha! ha! how pathetic and desperate your statement. Is this another illegal war being planned or the BBC banning all non-socialists?

      • Bill_der_Berg

        Attack mode? Don’t say that. It may make people nervous after the invasion of Iraq.

      • Wessex Man

        more and more seedy propaganda then, oh blow!

  • Cosmo

    The reason the media is assuming it’s all about immigration is because thats all the media wanted to discuss pre-election day, in a vain attempt to smear Mr Farage and the party.

    • telemachus

      So the billboards were erected by the Guardian

      • Cosmo

        One of the problems with people like you, is that you see racism everywhere – except where it really is. You are a Spartist of the worst kind and a great reason to vote UKIP at the GE

        • telemachus

          The GE will focus as always on domestic issues and if Ukip try to peddle racism again they will look petty bitter and small
          *
          They have no other policies
          None

          • Wessex Man

            Ok tele, give us the new Labour manifesto for 2015, as we don’t know any of your party’s policies either, nor for that matter do we know the Tory or Lib/dums manifestos.

            I expect your party will be launching your manifesto at your Conference just UKip will at our Conference.

            Of course you may have a problem getting one out in time once poor old Miliband has been de-throned!

    • Kitty MLB

      Humble apologies if this is not correct.I am only a quite
      small Right Wing Tory Lady, so no slaying please.
      But didn’t the charming Nigel Farage make it about
      immigration. An imotive subject and this is politics
      all parties want to win …..

      • telemachus

        As a besottee you should know Emotive subjects
        *
        On the subject however, not just immigration but untrammelled racism

      • SirGalahadT

        Notice the fallacy

        If you are worried about immigration you’re automatically a racist, which means the topic of immigration can never be raised by any politically correct person.

        • telemachus

          If you are worried about immigration you’re automatically a racist
          *
          It absolutely depends how you articulate that worry
          The way UKIP do it is racist

        • Kitty MLB

          Oh I do like your moniker.Dear noble gentleman.
          I totally agree. We have been so stiffled for
          so long,that they would tell us what to think
          if they could.And as for political correctness
          oh where would we be without superior beings
          telling us how to behave.Heaven Forfend
          that we should be trusted as decent human beings.

          • SirGalahadT

            Thanks Kitty

            Of course, they do tell us what to think. That’s the purpose of the BBC, the 3 main parties, the education system, the church. It’s so subtle that we don’t even notice it.

            The status quo are there to guide us, and if we step out of line we’re racists, conspiracy theorists, loonies, etc

            And most of the time we’re in a tiny minority so we are no threat to anyone. It will be interesting to see how they attack Farage, because there’s no way we’ll be allowed to leave the EU.

            If voting made any difference it wouldn’t be allowed – Mark Twain

            • rtj1211

              More to the point should be how the people attack the Establishment, because the history of Revolutions is always about the overthrow of Establishments who, through bare-faced self-interest, treat their own people with contempt.

        • rtj1211

          Actually a lot of politicians are now saying, on the BBC, that being worried about immigration is NOT being racist.

          I think the tide has turned on that one……..

          • Clibnarii

            No, its not racist, being totally against the immigration of a particular race, irrespective of their qualifications, earning capacity and individual personality however, is racist.

            So as things stand now, if the UKIP were to take up the BNPs policy on immigration, now or in the future, that would be racist.

      • Wessex Man

        He only told the truth about immigration unlike the Tory Spin Machine manned by two brains and Georgie pudding and pie who tried to smear us all as racists!

    • serialluncher

      Ukip lead on immigration. Perhaps you haven’t seen their posters.

      • telemachus

        On immigration and racism
        Marine Le Pen and Farage are as one

        • SirGalahadT

          Didn’t you complain about someone else’s ad hominem attack somewhere?

        • Lucy Sky Diamonds

          And the people agree with them.

      • SirGalahadT

        People are worried about immigration.

        Remember that all three status quo parties are pro-EU, which means that anyone who’s worried about the fascist tendency of the EU had no voice.

        There’s a democratic deficit

  • cargill55

    The establishment didn’t quite do enough in it’s anti democratic extremism to stop UKIP winning .
    Misleading party names allowed on the ballot paper, smear campaigns by the MSM, what on earth will they try between now and 2015

    • telemachus

      It’s official
      Marine Le Pen and Farage to forge a new racist European alliance

      • cargill55

        Keep the smears coming , it’s clearly helping UKIP

        • Wessex Man

          Tele and Hooky are truly a gift to our wonderful party!

          • Wessex Man

            by the way, where is dear old Hooky?

  • Mike

    It wasn’t the immigration issue it was having no control over your borders or laws that won it for UKIP.

    In a nutshell, if you are outside of the EU, you can set your own immigration laws, benefits laws, welfare laws as you control who is allowed into the country and NOT some unelected eurocrats living in Brussels. People understand that and this is what won it for UKIP !

    • telemachus

      No Mike
      It was Racism and Immigration
      They have lowered the moral base of our country
      Fortunately at the GE folks think about the economy, health and education
      They will deliver reasonable caring government

      • cargill55

        Which UKIP policy is racist?

        • telemachus

          As I keep posting
          It is the tone
          The promotion of fear

          • EschersStairs

            So essentially your claims about UKIP being a racist party are unsubstantiated, and are instead based on feelings. It is unacceptable to use that kind of language with that level of proof.

            • telemachus

              Yes partly based on the feelings of ethnic minorities

              • EschersStairs

                No. Feelings are unfalsifiable, and therefore should not be used to substantiate a claim of racism.

                • telemachus

                  This is what was said in Germany when there was only a feeling among Roma and the Jewish population

                • EschersStairs

                  Tell me, when has Nigel Farage written a book claiming that the Arian race is supreme and all others are sub-human; that our economic woes are due to a conspiracy by the Jews, Romanians, Czechs or whoever, to bring Britain economically to its heels? Or that the solution was the wholesale destruction of global Jewry?
                  Get off your high horse. The two are so disparate that you debase the memory of the Holocaust by the comparison.

                • telemachus

                  Have you watched his performances in the European Parliament on YouTube
                  They start with overt denigration of Belgium and the Belgians about which the folks who voted UKIP would be horrified

                • EschersStairs

                  I have seen some and I honestly don’t recall anything of that nature. If you have a link please send.

                • telemachus

                  There are about 3
                  Suggest you scroll thru
                  I cannt stomach watching them again

                • Wessex Man

                  In other words you are lying again!

                • EschersStairs

                  I’ll look them up as you say.
                  But for a moment I thought, then how can you stomach reading the spectator, no, subscribing to the spectator? But I suppose you must have an awful good time stirring the hornet’s nest.

                • rtj1211

                  Oh do stop being silly. Farage was lampooning an unelected mountebank getting paid more than Obama who put on a performance so pathetic that he would have been sacked from any proper organisation on the spot.

                • Ingenious Cognomen

                  They start with overt denigration of Belgium and the Belgians about which the folks who voted UKIP would be horrified

                  Most UKIP supporters would be highly amused by someone mocking the dreary Belgians!

                • Alexsandr

                  I have lived in Brussels. What a hole.

                • Alexsandr

                  have you not looked up what race means yet you muppet. Race is defined as a different people with different physiological traits. African Negroes are a race, white europeans are a race. Roma and Jews are not.

                  Clearly the results last night show you are so out of step and wrong on so much stuff. And outside London and the North east labour were struggling.

                • Wessex Man

                  You are one sick piece of work, tell me party the BBC woman who said UKIp members should be thrown in a bath of acid?

                  Clue, it’s not UKip, Tory or Lib/dum!

                • Cyril Sneer

                  There you go, the left and their fear tactics.

                  You just complained earlier about the promotion of fear, when in fact it is you on the left that do this.

            • Kitty MLB

              Its wrong to call a party racist just like it was
              wrong for our much missed ex pm Mr Brown
              to call Mrs Duffy a bigot. Voters rallied
              around that lady, as they would anyone else
              insulted.Rather foolish of others to fall into
              that trap. But its clearly not done our lovely
              knight Nigel Farage any harm and the gentleman
              being a clever politician knows that fact.
              Use negativity to ones advantage…

              • telemachus

                The fact that the party is racist(see reply to Echers above) and the lady expressed bigoted views are of course not relevant

                • Kitty MLB

                  Mrs Duffy was not a bigot for asking a question
                  this is how Labour treats its core voters.But
                  maybe you are more concerned with the
                  votes who live here but hail from third world
                  lands.

                • telemachus

                  All have similar weight
                  The point is we must all exhibit tolerance in thought word and deed in our multicultural society

                • telemachus

                  All have similar weight
                  The point is we must all exhibit tolerance in thought word and deed in our multicultural society

                • Kitty MLB

                  We have always been a very tolerant country,
                  politicians take advantage of that.
                  Multiculturalism is fine, untill being English
                  Becomes a minority and we are abused for
                  defending our country.Labour just deplores
                  this country and with the help of the leftie
                  establishment has tried its hardest to
                  belittle The United Kingdom. So never say
                  we are not tolerant.

                • telemachus

                  What Kitty is Englishness
                  I keep posting about the continuing regeneration since AD43
                  We just cannot stand still

                • rtj1211

                  So you are a slave race proponent are you (the British are intrinsically inferior to others)….?

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Englishness is what I self-identify myself to own. I am English. Born in England as the son of English parents, the grandson of English grandparents and with English ancestors spanning nearly ten centuries. It is not for the likes of you to define my Englishness or to determine its prospects.

                  Or anyone else’s.

                  So back off.

                • MirthaTidville

                  Well said sir

                • Alexsandr

                  As you are so hard of thinking, I will explain. there is a massive difference between the small numbers who came in waves before 1997 and the massive influx since 1997. Its a matter of degree. A few is fine. A lot isnt.

                • Mike

                  Englishness is all about fair play, honesty and transparency, something that the LibLabCon artists dont have.

                  Being British is not taking your 8 year old daughter to some disease ridden third world country to be married to some 50 year old pedophile.

                  Being British is allowing your daughter to marry who she likes when she reaches the age of consent rather than killing her because she preferred someone else that you dont agree with.

                  Being British is not going off to Afghanstan to join the Taliban and fight against our soldiers and it certainly isn’t hacking down an innocent young man in the streets of Woolwich for the whole world to see.

                • Dutchnick

                  We really must respect this faith that has given so much to the world.

                • Mike

                  I assume you mean Christianity as although I am probably an atheist now, I respect and understand that western culture is based on recent Christian values unlike religions that force people into a 6th century culture.

                • Cyril Sneer

                  If you don’t know then you don’t belong here.

                • Mike

                  All should have similar weight but thats not how its works when preferential treatment is given to one minority group or another.

                • Jackthesmilingblack

                  But she is from Rochdale.

                • Aberrant_Apostrophe

                  Continuing to call a party ‘racist’ doesn’t make it true. In fact, any party that advocates controlling immigration, which affects only foreigners, is by definition racist, so that means Labour, the Conservatives and the LibDems are ‘racist’.

                • Giles Humphry

                  I’d have respected Brown so much more if he had said when asked “where are all these East Europeans coming from” “Well, I’m going to take a wild guess and say Eastern Europe”

            • telemachus

              No
              Google their previous prospective leader Thandi
              Listen to Farage on neighbours
              Analyse the stationing of anti-immigration posters next to Asian communities

              • Treebrain

                telemachus,

                ‘Listen to Farage on neighbours’

                Did you know that ‘Romanian’ is not a race but a nationality?

                • telemachus

                  Not sure the Germans took this distinction in Men Kampf and after

                • Alexsandr

                  there is a big difference between genocide and racism.

                • Treebrain

                  How would you know, or have you actually read Mein Kampf?

                  The Germans are well aware of the difference between nationality and race, as their immigration, naturalisation and nationality policies have reflected for decades.

              • Alexsandr

                why does that threaten anyone already here? No-one from UKIP has suggested repatriation.

          • SirGalahadT

            Please do yourself a favour and do some research on the origins of the EU, who its founders were, and what its agenda is

            Start here: http://www.eu-facts.org/en/ireland/from_auschwitz_to_brussels.html

            • telemachus

              One of the drivers was to prevent conflict between people
              Farage and Le Pen promote discord and will again lead to conflict

              • rtj1211

                The conflict will come from the EU iconoclasts trying to force disparate and unequal economies to exist under the same currency. Greece, Portugal, Spain, Southern Italy could not compete like that and the Germans were given the biggest economic bung in history.

                The prevention of conflict was achieved through trade, sporting and cultural exchanges in the main.

                By the time the EU State and the Euro were conceived, the threat of war between Germany, Spain, Italy, France and England was long gone.

                • logdon

                  The conflict will come from Muslims in Paris, Brussels, Malmo, Copenhagen and Bradford when they feel their numbers are sufficient.

                • Dutchnick

                  Quite right, inter EU immigration per se is not a problem the Muslim faith is. There must be no Islamic faith schools in Europe fully stop if you wish to arrest the rot.

                • logdon

                  I think that the Trojan Horse situation Birmingham is the tip of the iceberg.

                  Gove has to act now.

              • Alexsandr

                Did you read reek papers during the crisis there? I dont think being a german in Athens would have been pleasant then. It is fear of the unknown that promoted hatred. And a collapsing currency or collapsing EU would do the same. And make no mistake. The EU came very very close to collapsing.

          • Colonel Mustard

            That is not a policy but a subjective reaction by you.

            So you are lying. Again.

          • rtj1211

            I do hope you welcome a gypsy camp in your street and you personally clean up all the mess they leave.

            I do hope your job is ‘rationalised’ and you are asked to reapply for it for 30% less pay and lose to a migrant who can buy a home back in the native land for £10,000.

            Then you’d learn that it’s not ‘promotion of fear’ but confronting the decision to advance the interests of immigrants at the expense of people who were born here and wish to live here.

            If that were done against blacks, not whites, it would be called racism by your lot.

            But clearly, in your warped mind, white people cannot be discriminated against and hence no anti-white racism could possibly ever exist.

            You might like to examine your prejudices on that one, friend.

          • Mike

            By your yardstick LibLabCon are even more racist than the BNP was given the bigoted comments flying from their mouths over the past 3 months !

          • Cyril Sneer

            “The promotion of fear”

            The tool of the left.

      • Cosmo

        “Fortunately at the GE folks think about the economy, health and education” Which is why they would be foolish to vote Labour.

        • telemachus

          On the contrary we simply have to think back to the longest period of continual prosperity for a century after 1997

          • Cosmo

            That ended well didn’t it.

            • telemachus

              The banking collapse induced in the US was solved by Brown who engineered the climb out of the banking induced recession until Osborne slowed it down by choking capital investment

              • SirGalahadT

                “The banking collapse induced in the US was solved by Brown ”

                Comedy time

                • telemachus

                  No
                  We are thankful
                  As were the Fed

                • SirGalahadT

                  Have you ever looked into the founding of the Fed?

                  The Creature from Jekyll Island – created in secrecy by the International Bankers

                  Those guys are not on our side

                • Kitty MLB

                  Rather like the time Gordon Brown told the HOC
                  that he saved the world..that was hilerious. I

                • telemachus

                  Saved the World’s Banks
                  Almost the same
                  Think of the starvation of millions if he had failed

              • Alan Phillips

                Dang,,, I forgot that he saved the world, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5stftd5qv3M

              • Wessex Man

                Oh my word this dummy still thinks Gordo saved the world!

              • Cosmo

                One of the main causes of the banking collapse was the Clinton administration introducing laws that compelled banks to lend to high risk “minorities”. Another case of leftist idiots like yourself seeing racism where there is none and wrestling realty into submission.

          • Kitty MLB

            Any prosperity came from the excellent economy Labour inherited from the Conservatives. Labour through greed and
            incompetence soon wandered from the
            path of responsibility and rebuilt a doomed
            economy on sand.
            That smiling villain had so much fortune and
            luck fall into his hands and achieved so little.

            • telemachus

              So little?
              The rescue of the NHS and bringing our hospitals and schools from nineteenth century decay

              • rtj1211

                You mean the massive increase in wages for doctors, the massively corrupt overspend on PFI builds for new hospitals and the massive increase in drug prices because the pharma companies knew that the Labour Party was a soft touch??

              • Andy

                Oh yes the murderers of Mid Staffs.

                • Alexsandr

                  tell me. Why isnt Andy Burnham in Jail for manslaughter?

              • Colonel Mustard

                I think even a blatant propagandist like you would be stretching the truth to claim that the NHS and Education building infrastructure in 1997 was wholly 19th Century in origin.

                The first wave of BSF did not begin until 2005/6 and the wisdom and cost effectiveness of the scheme was questionable from the start. The National Audit Office noted management issues regarding problems in meeting targets, overuse of expensive consultants, and high staff costs (the Chief Executive and top four directors received about £750,000 pa in total). Of the £2.2 billion for BSF, £1.2 billion (55.5%) was covered by Public Finance Initiative (PFI) credits.

                Most of the major new building works were PFI-funded, which took the construction and facilities management (but not the educational provision) out of the financial control of Local Education Authorities because the construction and facilities management of a school became a source of revenue for the consortia involved for up to 30 years, even if the school is no longer needed.

                There were accusations that the relationship between the quality of infrastructure and the quality of pupil education was not clearly demonstrated; many of the schools at the top of the league tables were ancient schools with mostly ancient buildings. And some of the poorest countries in the world continue to demonstrate that the quality of education is not dependant on bricks and mortar.

                The selection of some schools for demolition and rebuilding was controversial; notably there were criticisms in the architectural press over the demolition of the brutalist Pimlico School, with many calls for the building to be protected by being placed on the register of listed buildings. The designs of 10 of the first 11 schools, including Pimlico, were granted planning permission even though they have been described by CABE as ‘mediocre’ or ‘not yet good enough’. They noted that it was possible to be selected for a PFI scheme without a high quality design.

          • Alexsandr

            anyone can promote a boom by unlimited borrowing. The only issue is when the time comes to pay it back.
            I wonder how many NHS trusts will go bust trying to pay their PFI liabilities.

      • Grey Wolf

        ”They have lowered the moral base”
        More weasel words to explain away the ignominious thrashing the mainstream parties have received at the hands of the electorate.

        • telemachus

          We teach our children tolerance
          What do our children glean from Farage

          • Grey Wolf

            patriotism
            sensible politics

            • telemachus

              little englandism

              • Grey Wolf

                So you are back peddling nonsense.

                • telemachus

                  Refute my statements then

                • Grey Wolf

                  What statement?
                  Your dismissing of patriotism as ”little englandism” is so trite and silly that it does not merit refutation.

                • telemachus

                  The brand of patriotism peddled by Farage is little englandism
                  Most of us celebrate the reinvigoration of our Great Nation by the immigrants
                  *
                  As the Romans, Anglo Saxons, Vikings, Normans, Hanoverians and Huegenots

                • Colonel Mustard

                  You are getting more ridiculous by the day. Your boast that “most of us celebrate the reinvigoration…” etc., is not just offensive but in the light of the election results absolutely wrong. 28% vs 25% little man. And if it was not for the foreign city state of London you would not have even beaten the Tories.

                • telemachus

                  The reinvigoration of Britain is self evident, pat Joseph and part influx
                  What you are saying is that some voter groups do not accept that

                • Colonel Mustard

                  What am I saying is that your proposition is refuted by the evidence of the popular vote. It is Labour running the “some voter groups do not accept that”. Your denial of reality won’t change that.

                • rtj1211

                  Reinvigoration as what, pray??

                  Disposable income of ordinary people is way down, witness the collapse of saving and the uncontrolled expansion of private debt, exclusive of mortgages.

                  If we are ‘reinvigorating’ our nation by emulating South America and headed toward favellas, then give me catatonia, any time.

                • Andy

                  And that was down to the immigrant vote. That was the whole point of the Fascist Labour Party’s policy: to gerrymander elections.

                • Alexsandr

                  but remember non UK citizens cant vote in a GE. So some of labours vote will evaporate in 2015

          • SirGalahadT

            to question the status quo?

            • telemachus

              It is “which status quo” that is wrong
              We have travelled a long way since “no blacks, no Irish”
              Now it is no Romanians
              And that is just a start

          • Colonel Mustard

            You brainwash children with left wing propaganda. England was always a tolerant country and needed no bad law from New Labour in that regard. Bad law that has incited hatred and stirred up sectarianism.

            • telemachus

              the Thatcher government steamrollered in the homophobic Section 28.

              The Act, which remained part of the statute book until Labour scrapped it in 2003, was as controversial and ambiguous as it was soaked in hate and deep prejudice.

              In one fell swoop, Section 28 crucially advocated censorship – preventing local authorities and schools from discussing (“promoting”, the hideous wording was) homosexuality or engaging in anti-bullying activities, sneered at “pretended family relationships”, and added insult to injury by linking homosexuality to “the spread of disease”.

              • Colonel Mustard

                So what. It was repealed. Let’s talk about unrepealed and damaging New Labour bad law instead.

                Your sidestep tactics demonstrate that you are incapable of facing reality or presenting anything other than silly, shallow propaganda for a rotten party. You are delusional and your “comments” increasingly deranged. Give it a rest.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            “The meek shall inherit the Earth?”

      • Kitty MLB

        Indeed the general election will be about the
        economy, health and education , so hopefully
        Labour must never be allowed to win.
        And as I have always said and a wise old kipper chum
        of mine who is very knowledgeable in this matter.
        UKIP will be the party of the working classes.
        Things have not gone too well for socialist chum
        of Millipede dear old Hollande as it….

        • telemachus

          This day is a day of triumph
          The bottom half need redress from the award of resources to the rich by Osborne and Alexander

          • Kitty MLB

            Its somewhat early dear little wasp or maybe
            I am struggling with your all knowing wisdom.
            but pray tell in English and not in telelanguage
            what is the doomed socialist rattling on about?
            Any good news for Labour is somewhat
            apocalyptic for other mere mortals..

            • telemachus

              Maybe for the top10% and metropolitan elite

              • Ron Todd

                metropolitan elite that will be the labour party leadership.

                • telemachus

                  They have their power base in the North

                • Raddiy

                  * Correction*

                  ‘ They had their power base in the North,’
                  Only somebody who knows nothing about Labour in the old tribal heartlands would be so complacent. Long may it continue.

              • Colonel Mustard

                Maybe you should study the election results. All over England the Tories attracted voters to the tune of 24%, only 1% behind Labour, and it would have been even were it not for the enclave of London with its huge proportion of imported Labour voters.

                Your relentless boasts and lies here are tedious. Give it a rest. Let others have a say without your constant harassment and bullying.

                • telemachus

                  Your point is irrelevant
                  UKIP overall overlaps the Tory constituency
                  The UKIP split of the vote in the 43 Tory marginal will deliver Downing Street to Labour(Scottish referendum allowing)

                • Colonel Mustard

                  My point is not irrelevant at all because it refutes your silly assertion. Labour gaining power by cynical manipulation of the quirks of the voting system is not the same as securing a popular mandate. You might squeeze into power but in England a large proportion of the ordinary electorate (not just the top 10% and metropolitan elite – who are mostly lefties anyway) will still hate you.

                • Kitty MLB

                  Labours in built advantage shows show undemocratic our
                  constituencies are. Lib Dems said they wanted to make that
                  more fair in their manifesto but we know how treacherous they
                  are. They also will not have the Scotland vote if they vote
                  for independence. I believe the government will not allow
                  Scotland to do that next year. Apologies if that is incorrect.

                • telemachus

                  You are correct my little ladybird
                  Scotland is the big threat
                  The best way to slay that is for us to keep out of it
                  Salmond can lose it all on his own

                • Kitty MLB

                  I feel Mr Salmond will win, little wasp ! And
                  on the subject of creatures. I do hope socialists
                  are nice to bats.I am awfully fond of them.

                • telemachus

                  Wasps sting
                  We use Lard to fry Ladybirds

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Wasps are also stupid enough to blindly follow the deceptive sweetness of jam into the jar where they buzz impotently around listening to the endless boasts of the Queen Wathp and not going anywhere ever again.

                • Wessex Man

                  Still wrapped up is your political pap of parties, neither of you have noticed that the disgusting campaigns your parties waged against UKip didn’t work at all. I just hope that the SNP and the Yes Campaign are prepared for the propaganda that will hit them full on about the beginnig of July.

                  Labour, Tory and the Liberal Democrats are isolated from reality and the general population that they will be unable to stop themselves doing it all over again.

                • telemachus

                  My mother told me
                  Pride comes before a fall

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Well you haven’t fallen yet. But maybe hubris doesn’t work like pride. Your comments are stuffed full of hubris and bursting at the seams with it. And God knows you and stinking Labour richly deserve a fall.

                • Jackthesmilingblack

                  Retribution: “Never put off to tomorrow …”

                • uberwest

                  Before you can fall, you have to learn to stand on your own two feet.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Even the BBC map showed the reality. The whole of England was blue and purple except for the foreign enclaves of the big socialist cities with their imported Labour voters and indigenous grievance peddlers. But what was surprising was the near half million insurgent UKIP and/or Tory votes even in those places.

                  How the left have managed the Great Con that they represent a majority of thinking in this country is quite remarkable. I suppose because their Long March has seized all the institutions by which the public narrative is peddled. Now in their shock and resentment they are falling back on abusing those ordinary English people who voted against them. By which they demonstrate their true contempt for democracy.

                  My interpretation of yesterday’s seismic event. Lots of English people tired of the left and tired of the causes of the left.

                • FrenchNewsonlin

                  Indeed Col and a very similar tale was told in France (and elsewhere) where the establishment shock is even more palpable and the outrage equally manipulative: with 24% of the electorate now being labelled “fascist” and “racist”. Standard fare from those for whom democracy is rule of the elite, by the elite, and for the elite.

                • telemachus

                  I decry bleating
                  Who cares if the voting system is fair
                  To win is all
                  You would do well to have listened to Chuka Umunna just now on Today

                • Colonel Mustard

                  You are a truly repulsive little man. You bleat all day every day about “fairness” and then boast “Who cares if the voting system is fair.” Ghastly.

                  And I have better things to do than listen to the smarmy words of the expensively suited and be-watched Chukus Yermoney, Labour’s token Obama.

                • telemachus

                  A comment worthy of Farage

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Thanks for the compliment.

                • Andy

                  Your comment was worthy of the Fascist Left **** you are.

                • Wessex Man

                  oh my word!

                • Alexsandr

                  you care nothing of democracy. A few weeks ago you craved a totalitarian socialist police state the the DDR, a view that disgusts me.

                • saffrin

                  I did and I was pleased to learn, through the words and insight of Chuka Umunna himself that Labour still have their head firmly wedged between the cheeks of their…

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  What another Labour liar.

                • MirthaTidville

                  Tele…if you are the forces of reason as you like to tell us just explain exactly why your lot didnt bash the Tories out of sight..instead you finished second less than 1.5% ahead of them. Now that is serious failure in anyones,bar yours obviously,book

                • telemachus

                  Labor rose from a low point of 2010 to increase from 10 to 20 MEP’s
                  The rise will be exponential from now on

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Keep telling yourself that.

                • Wessex Man

                  This is why we must all get on our bikes and go north of the border to give our support to our good friend the SNP, never again must Scottish Labour and Scottish Liberal Democrats be allowed to dominate UK politics!

              • Alexsandr

                Umm – Looks like the metropolitan elite were the only place that likes Labours message. They did less well outside the capital if you could be ar$ed to look at the detailed results.

          • Alexsandr

            it certainly is a day of triumph. The lack of a labour victory is a harbinger of defeat in 2015. And look at the regional results. If you look at England outside London labours showing is pitiful.
            And then people like chuck-up on TV this morning saying they have to get their message across better was so heartening. They have been proven wrong by the electorate, and if they do not eveolve then they will become extinct.

          • David B

            Tele, today of all days shows us how poor your political judgement is. It was less than a year ago you predicted, with absolute certainty, Ed would have called for an IN/OUT referendum to be held on the same day as the Euro Elections, with amendments put down on the Euro referendum bill, propelling Labour to victory.

            Never happened, in fact Labour wiped its peers to vote down the bill and then went into these elections with a policy of no referendum at all.

            So lets hope your current predictions are equally as wrong and that in less than 12 months from today, Labour have fallen to their biggest defeat in a general election, Ed Miliband has resigned as party leader and disappeared just like his mentor and the dear leader Brown and Ed Balls is an ex MP.

            Now that is a further which will be bright for everyone!

          • global city

            But Labour would not help with that, they never do and they never have.

            It is in their direct interest to maintain poverty in order to keep the suckers voting for them. Ameliorate the worst but never eliminate the problem. They know that if they did change the fortunes of the poor fewer would vote for Labour.

        • jesseventura2

          Yes and spot the difference between two very stupid looking men?

      • Darnell Jackson

        The thing that never sleeps

        • telemachus

          If we are to nail the forces of racist evil we cannot sleep

          • Colonel Mustard

            You are not nailing anything but just bringing the Labour party you advocate into public disrepute by demonstrating how deranged you are. Even they are not peddling the tripe you are bombarding this website with.

            • Icebow

              Why keep feeding this Gollumesque troll by responding to it?

              • Colonel Mustard

                Good question, well put!

      • Ricky Strong

        Oh look, another entire thread dominated by you. The majority of people on here share similar views and pay good money to view this publication, can you not just please accept that without spewing your vile socialist filth by making accusations of racism to anyone and everyone. I did say please.

      • Andy

        It was the racist and Fascist Labour Party that ‘lowered the moral base of our country’, which is why it should be a proscribed organisation.

      • Coastliner

        A ‘reasonable caring government’ – if by that you mean ‘Labour’ – yes they do care, but not about the indigenous Britons – only their imported third world voter base. My God – the thoughts of that treacherous champagne socialist shower anywhere near Downing Street should make any (real) British person with half a brain physically ill.

        • Colonel Mustard

          Labour – a duplicitous and scheming party, rotten in nature but amply represented by telemachus whose spiritual home is the SWP and whose politics are rooted in the GDR circa 1960. A review of his comments will reveal not just the dangerously barmy self-delusions and hubris of the Labour tribalist but the bodyguard of lies they depend on to peddle their tripe.

      • saffrin

        Exactly, and as open door mass immigration does so much damage to our economy, creating a property crisis, adding to an already multi-million plus unemployment mountain, let us not forget the education of our children as they are neglected by helpless teachers burdened with the problems of multi-language multi-culturism or the over stretched NHS as it struggles under the pressure of providing a health service to Europe’s tourism industry.

      • Inverted Meniscus

        Hilarious. To suggest that any party could lower the “moral base” ( whatever the f*** that is) of this country after the amoral scum who degenerated this country morally, spiritually, intellectually and economically between 1997 and 2013 is beyond parody. The arrogant filth of the Labour Party epitomise the reasons why ordinary, non racist citizens of this country are rejecting the ‘old gang’ of Westminster politicians in favour of parties willing to articulate their genuine concerns. The only thing Labour will ever deliver is economic disaster, moral decay, corruption and illegal wars.

      • Mike

        In an inverted sense I agree with you why UKIP did so well as it was stoking up of racism and mass immigration created by the left wing ruling elite that handed it to them on a plate.

        When you create racist policies (as Labour did) that disadvantages the majority that will create anger towards the ‘privilidged’ minority groups. You only have to look at Americas ‘affirmative action’ legislation to see how that failed. They tried these sorts of policies years ago to improve education among blacks to reduce crime or make absent ‘sperm donors’ responsible. Now, everyone including the minority groups accept they failed and all it achieved was an increase in resentment towards certain groups. Even educated black people are against it for the same reasons as educated whites.

        The UK is no different and the left have tried similar stunts by giving preferential treatment to every minority group they could think of irrespective of their abilities to perform. In the work place the policy that gave women a short cut to the board failed as most women didn’t want the stress of those higher positions even when given preferential treatment. The same is true of preferential treatment with ethnic groups who can break or ignore UK laws with impunity and when that race card is played they are let off.

        Affirmative action or preferential treatment is by definition a racist policy against the majority and coupled with mass immigration it just aggravates an already bad situation, its disingenuous to accuse UKIP of pushing racist policies when its the left wing fascists who are the real cause of resentment against some minority groups.

        Lets face it, at school if blonde haired girl had special treatment over brunette girls they’d be an outcry but if complaints against an asian kid having special treatment compared to a white kid, the majority are labelled as being racist. At a school in Swindon, a young fat kid was mercilessly taunted by an asian kid over his size and eventually the poor fat kid responded with what the left refer to as a racist abuse. These were kids just having a verbal spat but once again, preferential treatment just exacerbates racial tensions but people like you can’t see that. Its inverse racism and the left refuse to acknowledge its they who have stoked up this resentment and increase in racism or bigotry (as in Brown and that Labour supporter).

        All UKIP and others before them have done is open our eyes to whats going on and report inconvenient facts that the left would wish hidden.

        • Clibnarii

          The thing is though, while the bully was wrong, he was not guilty of racism, the bullied kid could have responded in some other manner, he brought race into it.

          • Mike

            Racism is in the mind and can’t really be legislated on in any realistic manner.

            Kids at school will call each other names and have done for centuries with adjectival nouns like carrot top for a red haired child, wing nut as I was called sometime because my ears stuck out and so forth. If a fat child called a red haired kid carrot top, that describes the ‘foe’ and its no different if the foe is described by your culture or ethnicity.

            Only the left have made it a race thing when in that particular case it most certainly wasn’t.

            Now here’s a fact the left would find hard to get to grips with let alone comprehend. A friend of my wifes had a bunch of Labradoodle pups (Labradors & poodle cross) some were blonde in colour and some were black. Feeding time comes around and its amazing that they self segregate into two groups at feeding time by colour.

            The left would probably accuse the owners of making them ‘racist’ but it was purely natural selection where all mammals will usually congregate with similar peers to themselves including four legged mammals.

            • Clibnarii

              One major flaw with your analogy, Human beings are not divided into breeds, while those dogs have been intensively bred to have great genetic variation, there is no scientific consensus of such genetic diversity amongst humans. A species whose genetic diversity is limited by the following

              1) Being a relatively young species, with limited time for differentiation
              2) Constantly migration from pretty much the start into each others territories, for example, Celt and Anglo Saxon language and cultures were introduced into the U.K from by outside peoples. Similarly we have the Altaic migrations across much of Eurasia
              3) The fact that humans develop culture, which shield them from natural selection which would lead to creation of distinct sub-species
              4)The fact that some time after their evolution, human beings went through a genetic bottleneck event, further reducing genetic diversity.

              Source: I student genetics in University, got a first too.

            • Clibnarii

              Reposting this here!

              One major flaw with your analogy, Human beings are not divided into breeds, while those dogs have been intensively bred to have great genetic variation, there is no scientific consensus of such genetic diversity amongst humans. A species whose genetic diversity is limited by the following

              1) Being a relatively young species, with limited time for differentiation
              2) Constantly migration from pretty much the start into each others territories, for example, Celt and Anglo Saxon language and cultures were introduced into the U.K from by outside peoples. Similarly we have the Altaic migrations across much of Eurasia
              3) The fact that humans develop culture, which shield them from natural selection which would lead to creation of distinct sub-species
              4)The fact that some time after their evolution, human beings went through a genetic bottleneck event, further reducing genetic diversity.

              Source: I student genetics in University, got a first too.

              • Mike

                I accept that many canine breeds have been intensively bred to their detriment but equally there are more mongrels around than pure breeds who are healthier as a consequence. That’s no different than when migration started amongst humans and racial differences like colour weren’t a social issue for mixing the races.

                As I posted before, my point was more to do with the apparent segregation of a canine litter based on hair colour which quite obviously couldn’t be racist in nature but is purely a natural gravitation of individuals canine or human to tend to congregate with similar people. The problem is if humans do it, its called racist behavior purely to substantiate their twisted logic.

                Perhaps the expression ‘the black sheep of the family’ should be looked at in more detail as that might give a clue.

                • Clibnarii

                  The thing is, while your observation is interesting, for it to be scientifically valid we would need multiple observations to be analysed in a scientifically valid manner with controls in place. Then if scientifically performed, such an experiment would have to be replicated multiple times and published to form a body of knowledge which would have to have widespread acceptance.

                  The thing is, human beings have culture, these often coincide with phenotype (appearance) differences. I know of people of other races who are nice, educated, people, fun to hang out with. They are sufficiently Anglicized/westernised and are quite pleasant to hang out with.

                  Conversely I know of of people of my own race, who due to either their personalities, interests or backgrounds, have little in common with me.

                  Just because someone is of the same skin colour doesn’t automatically make them my best friend and just because someone is of a different skin colour doesn’t automatically rule them out as friends either. Given that there is no scientific consensus of the role in genes governing behaviour in different ethnic groups, one must lean towards culture. For example, see what happens to whites when they convert to Islam, or the differences between Indians and Pakistanis, who though of a similar ethnicity are of different religions which affects their culture.

                • Mike

                  Quite what the real thrust of your post is baffles me unless you’re trying to elevate yourself above other posters here by being a member of a superior gene pool given your first in genetics.

                  My two points were very simple in that (a) racism is in the eye of the beholder and not up to some other person to judge what is in that persons mind, and (b) mammals like dogs can show pack mentality based on what we might call a colour preference or prejudice but the left wing chattering classes would call racist among humans.

                  My wife and I have been close friends to an Indian neighbour for many years now even though we both moved away from where we both met. If I skype him or vice/versa the joking first response is “hows it going snowflake” from him and “how are you you asian b******” from me. Of course this is just banter but can you imagine some left wing nutter hearing this. Firstly they wouldn’t understand the word “snowflake” but they certainly would call me a racist for my ‘greeting’.

                  I do agree that culture is what defines people and its religion that usually defines that culture first but I’m not sure what you are getting at when stating ‘look what happens to whites when they convert to Islam.

                  Anyone converting to another religion isn’t necessarily a good, bad or indifferent thing. They may change their nature for the better or worse as it depends on their genes in my opinion. The bulger killers for example were in my opinion born evil unlike other killers that might have some mitigating circumstance. Some people like me don’t need a prop to support us through life but some do need some invisible force to help them. Some religions are relatively benign and some elements are extreme and if you’re weak willed you may end up being radicalised as we’ve seen. In a nutshell, religion did or still does define a culture and culture defines the ‘tribe’. Colour is of very little importance today amongst humans compared to religion/culture.

                  Interestingly from my Indian friends perspective (and his friends), I saw far more hate towards Muslims than I ever have seen from Christians, but the educated left don’t want to talk about that do they as its only the white Christians minded who can be racist or bigoted.

    • Adrian Drummond

      Why is this so clear for most of us but seemingly unfathomable to Mr. Forsyth?

    • global city

      Yes, the europhiles steer and restrict the conversation to business because the points you raise would kill off any desire to remain in the EU if they where popularly understood.

      Monnet knew this, that is why he expressly instructed europhiles to couch everything in terms of economy and not political union.

    • umberto

      It wasn’t immigration issue or racism. It was matter of national sovereignty.
      The illustrated left doesn’t understand because their model of State is the Soviet Superstate model, and they want the EU become a kind of Fabian Soviet Union Superstate and under-educated left wants just keep the Welfare Apparat that will no longer be possible because this cripto – dictatorial bureaurocracy and the cleptocracy of the soutrhern States; will destroy the free enterpise economy, as it was in the Soviet Union, where the state owned economy was strangulated by the bureaucratic superstate.
      The common people discerning, or forewarning about all it, has voted UKIP

  • Tron

    London is another country. Who saw that coming?

    • telemachus

      We need to analyse this and learn
      UKIP is anti politics
      Politics is London centric
      We should move the centre of government to Manchester

      • rtj1211

        UKIP is anti apparatchiks.

        Perhaps we should move an English Parliament to the regions.

        I can’t see how conducting Foreign Affairs from Manchester would help really.

        You won’t get 200 nations to move their embassies in a hurry…….

        • Wessex Man

          why on earth not? I find Manchester just as welcoming as London, no no I don’t, I find more welcoming! I would say though the national parliament should be built somewhere to the north of Birmingham central to the Motorway system and the Airport and the MPs should all be housed in new barracks, thus cutting out second home problems!

      • Alexsandr

        if it goes anywhere it should go to Yorkshire. Heckmondwyke?

        • Andy

          The Fascist has no idea where Heckmondwike is !

    • Alexsandr

      if you look at the popular vote by region the UKIP vote is well into the 30’s in many regions. Only London pulls the %age down.
      Looks like UKIP is becoming the only national party, LIBLABCON withdrawing into their own ghettoes.
      And I am gobsmacked UKIP even made an impression in Scotland and Wales.

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