Coffee House

Ukip’s poster campaign misses the point about the job market

24 April 2014

12:23 PM

24 April 2014

12:23 PM

‘Twenty-six million people in Europe are looking for work. And whose jobs are they after?’ asks the Ukip poster for the euro-elections, beside a Lord Kitchener-style pointing finger. Obviously, Ukip thinks the answer is ‘Ours’. But this isn’t true. Twenty-six million people are not looking for British jobs, but for jobs in general. And even those who do want jobs in Britain are not trying to take jobs from people who have them (though this might sometimes be the effect): they just want jobs. If Ukip is opposed to unrestricted EU immigration, it should direct its anger at the politicians who support this policy, not at the blameless people who, like most of us, want work. The poster illustrates a psychological problem for those of us — myself included — who would instinctively prefer not to be in the EU. The good reason to feel this way is because we want to govern ourselves once again and be a freer part of a wider world. Ukip has recently produced a respectable pamphlet along these lines. The bad reason is because of hating foreigners. In a referendum campaign, it will become clear which reason dominates the ‘Get Out’ side. If it is the latter, it will lose, and deserve to.

GoveThis is an extract from Charles Moore’s Spectator’s Notes in this week’s magazine. Click here to read for free with a trial of The Spectator app for iPad and iPhone. You can also subscribe with a free trial on the Kindle Fire.

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Show comments
  • rtj1211

    I think the point to make is that, if someone not currently resident here wants a job here, they also want a place to live, access to the NHS, primary school places for their kids etc etc.

    The employer who replaces indigenous labour with foreign labour does not pay the societal cost of that decision, rather reaps a profit whilst piling a net cost onto wider society (unless of course, equal numbers of people leave this country as enter it).

    Supply and demand says that house prices go up and rental rates go up (more accommodation seekers for a fixed supply), whilst salaries often drop (due to greater labour levels increasing competition for jobs).

    The thing is: you can bring in tens of thousands of immigrants in three months as employers. But as a council, a Government, a community, you can’t just whip up new housing that fast. It just doesn’t work like that.

    These are the issues that no-one discusses.

    I want all advocates of unbridled immigration to cost this out rigorously, fairly and impartially,

    I want the net cost to society per immigrant to be totted up (including increased welfare payments to indigenous people who either lose their jobs, can’t get a job or need welfare to supplement below-living-wage conditions; cost of new infrastructure requirements; additional cost to the NHS; additional cost for schooling etc etc; less the taxes paid to society by that immigrant in terms of income tax, NI, VAT, council tax etc etc – which includes contributions to taxes paid by companies courtesy of them contributing to company income).

    The only way a fair debate on immigration can happen is if that number is spelled out in black and white.

    And it must be a heinous crime to rig them, akin to a lifetime ban from public life or work in economic forecasting for anyone who deliberately manipulates the figures for petty political ends.

    Any chance of that happening??

  • EschersStairs

    I actually think Mr. Moore is presenting a false dichotomy.
    The very reason why 26 million EU workers coming into UK is a problem is because the UK has been stripped of powers of self determination.
    If there is increased unemployment in an idealised economy, the average wage will decrease (and so the number of jobs increase) to compensate for the original loss of jobs.
    I think I’m right in saying that the situation at present is that the highly regulated job market of the rest of Europe penalises more free market countries like the UK because European wages are less mobile and so cannot create more jobs, and so UK with more mobile wages will then bear the brunt of wage fluctuations as it has little/no control over how many people can come into the country.

  • James Allen

    Precisely. I am utterly convinced we need to leave the EU for a whole host of reasons, but I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable about putting my cross next to UKIP on the ballot paper. If only the Tories could show REAL leadership on this issue…..

  • Hexhamgeezer

    Today’s Lamebour Party Political for the Euro elections – not a single mention of Europe – not one. Move along Folks! Nothing to see Here!

  • jonathanprice

    UKIP’s use of Kitchener imagery is very inappropriate because he was an internationalist. Not only did he speak fluent French and Arabic, but he even served in the French army as a young man.

  • JackyTreehorn

    While agreeing that the poster campaign could be better, there is no point in directing their anger at the politicians because they don’t and have never listened to the British public, preferring to ignore our wishes and carry on down the federalist road in the hope that the longer we stay in the more chance they have of complicting our exit and saying it’s too late.

  • CHRISTOPHER WHITE

    The CHANGE was allowing 475 ( – 62 UK) MILLION people to come here to work if they wish. As I’ve said in another comment, this is like the inhabitants of Central America being allowed to move to USA without check – something no USA government would ever contemplate.
    The elite had its mantra of ‘free movement’ & tens of millions of lives are impacted. Clearly the nature of England has been massively changed by this & English youths face unemployment. As employers recruit firstly on attitude they have themselves to blame to some extent, but it is the same old story – massive harmful change which is portrayed as inevitable (see also DC refusing referendum on Lisbon Treaty because it had been ratified based on the ludicrous & deceitful ploy of claiming that treaties can never be revised).
    DC was forced into referendum. In 2011/2012 he had whipped against voting for a referendum & Jesse Norman’s superb campaign against the membership of the House of Lords being rigged to give LDs power for ever resulted in DC engaging in an altercation with him. There is clearly an enormous sense of entitlement & intellectual complacency.

  • Lady Magdalene

    Guido reports a poll showing that the electorate do not consider the posters racist, but hard-hitting and reflecting reality.

    Only the chattering classes object to them…. because they have no answer to the truths they point out.

    http://order-order.com/2014/04/24/public-says-ukip-posters-arent-racist-agree-with-farage-that-they-reflect-reality/

  • Rallan

    Charles Moores spineless “don’t say anything that might get noticed” attitude is worse than useless. It’s why we are where we are! UKIP isn’t about hating foreigners. It’s about making a difference, taking back control of our government and respecting the electorate.

  • foxoles

    Mr Moore, on the UKIP party political broadcast yesterday, the statistic was aired that 1.6 million jobs were advertised on the EU ‘jobs portal’ last year, for which *anyone* in the EU may apply.

    900,000 of those jobs were based in Britain. (For comparison 300,000 were in Germany and a magnificent total of 3 were in Bulgaria).

    That is what these posters are highlighting. Nothing to do with ‘hating foreigners’.

  • Ron Todd

    It is not the politicians jobs they will be after and it is not the journalists jobs they will be after and it is not the quango bosses jobs they will be after and it is not the public sector high ups jobs they will be after after and it is not the union bosses jobs they will be after . So nothing to worry about no problem don’t make a fuss.

  • callingallcomets

    Oh dear, disband UKIP, pension off Farage and touch your forelock as Mr Moore rides his horse over your cabbage patch. The DT’s tweedy pseudo countryman instructs his tenants to ignore UKIP for an offence which, he claims, is implicit within a poster. Unfortunately for the Sussex squire the serfs disagree

    http://order-order.com/2014/04/24/public-says-ukip-posters-arent-racist-agree-with-farage-that-they-reflect-reality/

  • Realpolitik

    This month over half of all jobs advertised by the EU are British jobs; 900,000 of them.

    This statistic alone renders this article redundant, sadly not its author.

  • cartimandua

    No one “hates foreigners”. Open borders are just a complete nonsense and the people who suffer most are the young and the low skilled wherever they were born.

  • Denis_Cooper

    http://order-order.com/2014/04/24/public-says-ukip-posters-arent-racist-agree-with-farage-that-they-reflect-reality/

    “April 24th, 2014

    Public Says UKIP Posters Aren’t Racist

    Agree With Farage That They Reflect Reality

    YouGov’s polling is conclusive: the public does not agree the UKIP posters are racist, offensive or ignorant, with 57% saying they are a hard hitting reflection of reality. More support them than oppose them.”

    “Also worth noting that 61% of 2010 Tory voters support the posters, with 68% of 2010 Tories saying they are a hard hitting reflection of reality.”

    Charles Moore should put that in his pipe and smoke it, if it is still legal to do so.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      It’s a wonderful thing, the innertubes. Some establishment media muppet spews out the smears, and within hours he gets chopped down at the knees.

  • Denis_Cooper

    “If Ukip is opposed to unrestricted EU immigration, it should direct its anger at the politicians who support this policy, not at the blameless people who, like most of us, want work.”

    Which is what UKIP is doing; your problem is that “the politicians who support this policy” include those in your favoured Tory party just as much as those in the other two old pro-EU parties; you think that if Tory politicians make a few “eurosceptic” noises from time to time then they should be exempt from attack, and hopefully eventually removal, by UKIP; but that isn’t going to happen, the leaders of the Tory party past and present have been thoroughly found out and it will no longer be so easy for that party to fool people.

  • startledcod

    ‘We want to govern ourselves once again and be a freer part of a wider world’ is the most succinct argument I have read for leaving the EU.

  • jamesbarn

    In 2005 the Tories put out a poster saying “Its time to put a limmit on immigration”
    In 2007 Gordon Brown promised “British Jobs for British Workers”
    UKIP supports both these sentiments bot the LIBLABCON were only pretending and now they have got the wind up because the Public have realised that their statements were lies in order to gain votes.
    I will be voting UKIP from now on

  • Fraser Bailey

    It would have been smarter to show a picture of Gordon Brown with ‘British jobs for British workers’ in a speech bubble. And then the headline ‘We couldn’t have put it better ourselves’.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      They’re trying to strip votes from all corners, and it’s likely best for them to treat LibLabCon as a political monolith, for now at least.

  • Fraser Bailey

    Yes, this is a bad and misleading piece of communication in an otherwise decent campaign. It belittles and demonizes good people across Europe, who simply want a job. They don’t want the jobs of British people, they just want to work.

    • saffrin

      So do the British people that are out of work, so why are our Government advertising 900,000 of those jobs across Europe?
      It would appear to me today’s Government want Brit’s on the dole. 900,000 more than already are.

  • Colin

    A Prince of the Political / Media Complex speaks. And, inevitably, when it comes to anything that upsets the cosy consensus, speaks rubbish.

    The poster is brilliantly simple, and judging by the reaction of the usual suspects, effective.

  • Raddiy

    The public would seem not to agree with you!!

    1200 people were at the Sage Gateshead last night to listen to Nigel Farage, all paid £2 for the privilege, half were members and half were non members. The 900 tickets for the ‘Peoples Army’ talk in Derby next month have already gone, and a similar take up rate is happening at other venues up and down the country.

    That is the politics of the people in action. The major parties can’t even get those numbers at their annual conferences. The people want action not words or abstract academic analysis, or nit picking to the far end of a fart of who to apportion blame. The government is to blame, this government, the last government, and every government stretching back to the treacherous Heath.

    Of course you cannot blame any individual for the open door policy, but we cannot ignore that there if there is a cause, then there has to be an effect, which together have sown the seeds, and has now resulted in a reaction from the public determined to put a stop to it.

    For all your fine words Mr Moore, you are just as culpable for the current state of affairs, because like the rest of the political and media establishment you thought your opinion was more important than the people, and now you are finding out that it isn’t.

    • Kitty MLB

      Excellent post dear Raddy, I know Nigel Farage speaks well.
      Do you remember me once telling you I bumped in to him in a pub, had a
      chat with him and he apologised for Cameron. I remember Peter Buss getting very upset about Farage apologising.

      • Raddiy

        Indeed KItty!

        He was in Yarm yesterday in my stomping ground and had a pint in the Black Bull , couldn’t get near him, so many people wanting to talk to him. You would have enjoyed the Sage last night, real people politics right in the heart of Labourland, all the local Labour worthies running around like chickens with their heads cut off, trying to ignore the reality of a 1200 audience.

        They had every half baked lost cause on display outside, Lezzers for Labour etc, etc, and the usual bunch of one brain cell factions. protesting. It was fascinating to watch kippers politely talking to the rentamob who didn’t seem to understand what they were protesting about, it was priceless. I told you that Labour would be our target going forward, and now it is happening.

        I have no doubt Peter Buss is still getting very upset, the trouble is ConHome has quietly banned most of the kippers, so he has nobody to moan about and blame.

        Glorious times KItty, glorious times!!

        • Kitty MLB

          I have some interesting news about the other place, and their barring- that Cameron would not approve of. but I shall
          tell you when this thread is not being read so much, I wonder
          what you and UKIP will do with that news.
          And yes, you told me that UKIP were after the Labour voter,
          but as always that party arrogantly has their heads in the sand.

        • Lady Magdalene

          They barred me – for no “offence” whatsoever ….. except I made it clear I was a Kipper.

          • @PhilKean1

            From what you and Raddy are saying, it could be why the site is like like a ghost town.
            .

            • Kitty MLB

              Oh I must spill, ( something has happened ) I was waiting for Raddy. Since the New Year
              they have barred a huge amount of people, who you Raddy
              and Magdalene will know and keeping a check on the remaining few.
              Although I do not post there anymore, at Easter I send greetings to a few, and immediately got a visit to my account
              and was barred.
              Yesterday I realise you can still use the report section, and
              I reported my barring, telling them to rectify this. I Pointed
              out that barring people with an opinion and criticizing Cameron
              will not win him an election or see off UKIP and I said I would
              speak to the correct government department about this.
              And instantly I found I could post.
              Maybe the government would not approve of this and they know it. Very interesting.

              • @PhilKean1

                The comment sections seem to have collapsed. A big shame cos we were having some good debates on there. I wonder if the advertisers will notice the lower participation?

                I still post there a bit, but only on the news-links section.
                .

                • Kitty MLB

                  I remember this time last Easter, there were hundreds posting and the debates were excellent. A huge amount from different parties. But so many have been barred- Even Saltire
                  the only Scottish Conservative person left- you’d think they
                  would keep hold of him. Its a shell of its former self , such a shame. Maybe if Tim stayed it would have been different.

            • Raddiy

              Phil,

              I think they are just taking a more loyal position. I was the same as Lady Magdalene, one day could not post anymore, I could have registered another account, but to be honest what’s the point, if they want to navel gaze and ignore what is going on around them, it is just delaying the reality that one day they will have to address the problem.

              Occasionally I have a look at the site, but as you say the comment threads are empty, there is the delicious irony that the loyalists who were calling for kippers to be barred so they could wax lyrical about all things Cameroon, have not bothered to fill the vacuum. If I was the owners, I would be less than happy about what the current editors have done to the site.

              Anyway onwards and upwards, bigger fish to fry these days.

              • Conway

                It was the same argument about banning the smokers – those who didn’t like smoke would flock to the pubs. In fact, all that happened was that the pubs lost custom that wasn’t replaced and many of them closed. You could say the same about Cameron’s crusade on homosexual marriage. He lost a lot of voters, but I doubt he’s attracted many, if any, replacements.

        • Kitty MLB

          I just had to spill about the vanishing people in the other place but I think I have popped it under Phil’s post below- please read.

  • The_Missing_Think

    “… it should direct its anger at the politicians who support this policy, not at the blameless people who, like most of us, want work.”
    _____

    It is.

    It’s a poster for the EU election in a months time.

    True or false? True, so the target is the ballot box, not humans.

    Clear yet?.. Ok…

    Additionally, the fact, that no-one has been arrested for inciting immigration hatred – via race hate laws – proves there has been no crime of incitement to racial hatred.

    Again, True or false?

  • chrisd87

    Quite right. UKIP seem to have a continual problem of using hypotheticals, which have no chance of actually happening, as the basis of its leaflets and campaigns – e.g. claim/insinuations that 28 million Romanians and Bulgarians may move to Britain. Perfectly correct that there’s nothing to stop them, but that doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. You tend to weaken your argument by using this kind of hyperbole.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      Actually, your sophistry is weakening your “argument”.

    • Lady Magdalene

      And I supposed Clegg’s (erroneous) claim that 3 million jobs would be lost if we left the EU isn’t hypothetical?

      • chrisd87

        Correct, but just because the ‘in’ side are resorting to distortions and dodgy stats doesn’t mean the ‘out’ side should follow.

    • Hexhamgeezer

      Better to call it a ‘principle’ rather than the more nebulous ‘hypothetical’. In principle any sub-literate Bulgarian peasant can turn up here, get his foot in the door and then import his copious brood despite ‘safeguards’ and DWP ‘rules’ (or window dressing as we call them)… .or substitute ‘principle’ for ‘law’.

  • sfin

    And you, Charles, like most commentators miss the entire point of this campaign.

    The point is not the fact that millions of Europeans want to come to Britain to enjoy it’s employment (or unemployment) benefits. It is the fact that you and I, as British citizens have absolutely no say in the policy. A fundamental cornerstone of our sovereignty has been completely removed from our (the electorate’s) power with no consultation whatsoever.

    In short, our democracy has always been about the people lending power, to an elected few, to exercise on our behalf. That elected few, over the last few decades have given away powers that weren’t theirs to give.

    UKIP want to repatriate those powers. I, for one will fight against the likes of Mandelson’s “post democratic age” – it is an evil worth fighting against.

  • the viceroy’s gin

    So you establishment bubble denizens are still calling UKIP bigots, then?

    How’s that all working out for you types these days?

    • Tim Reed

      Rather splendidly…for UKIP.

      Roll on May 22nd!

  • Mc Kenzie

    The UKIP leader Farage employs a German woman as his secretary – she has taken a job that could be done by a British worker – this makes him and his party seem like hypocrites

    • Julian Kavanagh

      It doesn’t make them seem like hypocrites; it proves that they are.

      • fathomwest

        Goodness me this is scraping the gutter. You should both be ashamed of yourselves. No wonder the Conservative Party is under the cosh with people like you in it.

    • @PhilKean1

      Hypocrites?

      As in calling UKIP’s posters racist not long after sending vans round London asking “illegal immigrants” to go home?
      .

      • the viceroy’s gin

        Oh my, you weren’t supposed to mention that. How uncouth of you. Harumph.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …but the good news is, everybody knows the Cameroons didn’t really mean anything by those vans. It was just an anti-detoxification talisman like all the good bubble denizens expected them to deploy. It was just empty posturing and rhetoric. They never meant it and they don’t mean it now. They were just posturing. Come on now, we bubble establishmentarians shouldn’t hold that against them, should we?

        So, everybody should just relax. It’s like the “referendum”. It’s just a marketeering ploy.

        Sheesh. Come on, people. Relax.

        • @PhilKean1

          I don’t need to comment. Much more enjoyable reading yours :-)
          .

          • the viceroy’s gin

            You do bring up a very serious point though. The Cameroons are too thick to understand the hypocrisy, the base hypocrisy, of this political approach. It corrodes everything they are, that they would be so stupid as to build-in such hypocrisy, directly into their foundational message.

            It is as if they are simply too stupid to develop a joined-up strategy, and thus they must scurry to and fro, grab-bagging feverishly, like reptiles.

            Many things prove that the Cameroons are unfit to govern. This is another. And it is a big one. They are simply too stupid to do mature politics.

            • @PhilKean1

              But who are the more stupid. The Cameroons, or the backbenchers who believe Cameron will offer them a vote to leave the EU – at the very same time he is signing trade agreements and opting into shared crime and justice competencies which is consolidating Britain’s place in the new Federal Europe?

              • the viceroy’s gin

                The smart backbenchers know he’s a sham. But what are they to do? The LibLabCon establishment holds the high ground, and will completely destroy them, if they surface themselves. They can only be an insurgency, and strike using asymmetric methods. They need to leverage large events, and can’t really create these. We’ll see if May 22nd become one such large event, and how much leverage it provides.

            • The_Missing_Think

              That’s what I’m concluding, it’s all about mental maturity.

              Specifically: if factual reality creates awkward or painful thoughts, the immature mind rejects the pain, by rejecting reality.

              The mature mind, grits its teeth, and deals with the problem, warts an’ all.

              FGM is a prime example, they are simply blocking having to face upto this problem by pretending it doesn’t exist… no prosecutions.

              Thus… questions of actual sanity are on the table.

              Surely to deny facts / reality… is to be insane?

              • the viceroy’s gin

                Not necessarily. Being an unprincipled, careerist, political hack would cover it as well.

                • The_Missing_Think

                  True for some I suppose… but… that doesn’t explain the tens of millions that aren’t as you list, but identicle in mindset.

                  They’re the real target of my comment. Not how they got there, but what they’ve actually become.

              • Hexhamgeezer

                It’s cognitive dissonance – as suffered by the saintly Ed of this mag…

      • Kitty MLB

        I thought Ed Miliband was the topic of the day. UKIP was Monday,
        The SNP was yesterday – cannot remember, Tuesdays. And now we
        are back to posters again… Yawn! Sorry but my intellectual equilibrium needs stimulating quite a bit. So what people give relatives
        a job, like someone employed a foreign nanny- who cares….Yawn.

        • @PhilKean1

          Ed, who? :-)
          .

          • Kitty MLB

            Very perceptive answer Phil. Hopefully we will all be saying
            the same next year, when Ed who ? floats away to his oblivion
            and we think of him and his party as a nightmare we have woken from and forgotten.

    • sfin

      I’ve never had any problem with politicians, of any persuasion, employing spouses, or other close relatives, as assistants.

      As Nigel Farage said – who else could you employ to sort your emails and adjust your itinerary at midnight…Modern politics is a punishing job- hours wise- it’s practitioners need the closest support they can get.

    • Raddiy

      Based on your analysis technique are we then to assume that the BBC, Civil Service, LibDem, Labour and Conservative parties are cess pits of paedophilia, as they still contain elected members and Lords, and employees who were present, complicit or indulgent of the Paedophilia Information Exchange, Cyril Smith, Jimmy Saville and all the rest.

      Hypocrites or kiddie fiddlers, now there’s a choice!!

    • Wessex Man

      oh dear!

      • Mc Kenzie

        I know the man is a fraud !!

    • Hexhamgeezer

      McFeeble

  • @PhilKean1

    .
    Would it be a contradiction to say we are witnessing a coordinated, unofficial campaign to tarnish UKIP’s name?

    I mean, what does – “they aren’t after our jobs” – mean? Is that like saying to the armed robber who shoots a guard whilst robbing his security van that – “sorry, I wasn’t deliberately targeting you, you just happened to be on duty today”.

    A desperate establishment appear to be getting into the very intricate world of semantics in their efforts to make UKIP’s cause seem irrelevant.

    That they aren’t specifically targeting our jobs in their effort to GET a job doesn’t help the life-long British taxpayer who is unemployed because an unlimited number of EU job-seekers are making it much harder for HIM to get a job in order to feed his family.
    .

    • the viceroy’s gin

      The good news is that the bubble muppets are acknowledging that the argument hits home, and that they have no response to it other than the semantic reductionism you mention, which is cheap, and stinks of establishment panic. Pass the popcorn.

    • Denis_Cooper

      Did you get my message from the other side of my watery grave?

      • @PhilKean1

        No, Denis. Can you fill me in?
        .

        • Denis_Cooper

          You posted a comment on the CH Newslinks in which you referred to people “jumping ship” from that website. I posted a reply that I hadn’t jumped ship but had just been thrown overboard by the captain, and without a word … I wondered whether the system would work so that you would still get a notification of my reply even though the comment itself was instantly vaporised.

          • @PhilKean1

            I didn’t see it. And I don’t get receive the email notifications like you and Elaine.

            I really don’t know what’s going on.

  • fathomwest

    But, take the three foreigners who have been employed by the LibLabCon Alliance.
    Are there no people in the thousands of Brits employed within the political movements who could not do the jobs? Of course not and this fact, alone, proves the UKIP case.
    Vote UKIP for honesty

    • Julian Kavanagh

      You fail to mention the rather important fact that UKIP are running a poster campaign about Europeans coming to take British people while the main 3 political parties are not. Otherwise your logic is impeccable.

      • Hexhamgeezer

        But Frage’ missus works over there and not here and so hasn’t come over here to take a brit job. Unlike Clegg’s wife/boss

  • Kevin T

    I don’t take the poster to be blaming foreigners, just accurately describing the situation. You’ll find few people in UKIP who blame foreigners for wanting a job. If Vlad from Warsaw comes her seeking a job, it’s not a problem and most people would say good luck to him. If Vlad and 1,000,000 of his mates come her seeking a job, it is clearly a problem and it can’t not affect our own job prospects and wages.

    The reaction to these posters is only helping UKIP. When I grew up, racism meant you hated people because of their race. Now we’re being told it means you don’t support open door immigration with every poor country within a thousand mile radius. As if we’re supposed to shrug our shoulders, accept earning 5 grand less than we used to and celebrate the diversity. Or, as Andrew Lillico implied in the Telegraph yesterday, blame ourselves for not particularly wanting to go and work in Germany. Remember, no one voted for this.

    • fathomwest

      I think Pakistan and India etc are a little further Kevin. Apart from that I agree with you.

      • telemachus

        What on earth has South Asia got to do with unemployment?
        *
        Your post however is important in showing that Farage has moved from Euroscepticism to outright racism
        *
        His strategy is to move into the North via the BNP vote and very clearly it is working

        • Kitty MLB

          Oh look Blake’s Rose has turned up in a caterwauling storm.
          ‘Thou has found thy bed of socialist joy, and thou dark secret
          love doth life’.. and all that. Leave lovely Nigel Farage alone,
          he needs to be in fine fettle to ensnare all your old- Labour
          voters up in to the North for his ‘ peoples army’. Are you saying the issues of respectable, hardworking traditional old – labour voters
          are suspect.

          • telemachus

            Farage is bidding not for the Labour vote but for the Griffin vote
            He has already got the defected Robinson(Tommy) vote
            *
            The suspect I have is that you do not actually believe in Farage but are besotted

            • Kitty MLB

              I suspect you are besotted, torn between, Nigel, The Colonel
              and Ed Balls. Telemachus must be in turmoil.

              • telemachus

                You well know there is no contest there
                Ed is a charismatic giant of the Left
                In 20 years we will whisper his name in legend

                • Wessex Man

                  you do tell them tele.

                • Realpolitik

                  Whisper it as we beg Greece for a bailout.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  To describe Ed Balls as a “charismatic giant” is beyond lunacy. You really are a total pillock.

                • Aberrant_Apostrophe

                  I think he was being unintentionally sarcastic.

            • Wessex Man

              I can’t believe you once had the b***s to stand for UKip as a candidate in the old days and now so disparage us, was it Nige or Godfrey that upset you so?

              • telemachus

                Godfrey from my angle was a great man
                He showed us where it was at

                • Wessex Man

                  YOU RACIST YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

            • Realpolitik

              Stop trying to paint UKIP in BNP clothes, Brown said “British jobs for British people” By your own logic your beloved labour party are avid racists!

              • HookesLaw

                But Brown was lying then like Farage is lying now

                • Bo Williams

                  Who was lying? Are you say Brown was lying when he said British are for British workers? Or Farage is lying when he says no, at the moment, British jobs are being taken by foreign workers?

                • Realpolitik

                  How is Farage lying?

            • JackyTreehorn

              He isn’t looking for the bnp vote cos there ain’t enough of them.
              The left are getting a wee bit scared because they know deep down t’up north UKIP will take the traditional labour common sense vote. Keep telling yourself they will only take dissatisfied Tories you might even be able to convince yourself.

        • sfin

          No, Telemachus, Nigel Farage’s strategy is democratic accountability.

          We are debating – in this case – immigration, and you and I can do nothing about the policy. It currently favours your view, but if that changes, there is nothing you could do about it.

          Even though I totally disagree with your view on this subject, I disagree more with the fact that, as a British citizen, you have lost all influence in exercising your vote to change policy.

          • telemachus

            The one thing I admire about Cameron is that he is in there with Merkel and taking steps to change things
            Farage huffs and puffs but it will come to nothing

            • Wessex Man

              No I reckon it must have been Nige that upset you when you were a candidate for UKip.

            • Realpolitik
            • Colonel Mustard

              We’ll see.

            • Kevin T

              What do you expect Cameron’s changes to come to? What significant difference can he expect to make? If after over 20 years we’ve not been able to change the Common Fisheries Policy, which hands our fishing waters to Spanish factory fleets, then what is Dave going to do?

          • Bo Williams

            The British people can do something about immigration if they really want to. They can vote UKIP and if UKIP get enough seats at the General Election they will form a government presumably with the intention of removing the UK from the EU.

            Or they can vote Conservative on the assumption that PM Cameron will keep his word and hold a referendum and if enough people vote to leave the UK will presumably withdraw from the EU.

            The fact that not enough people take these options suggests, no matter what they say in opinion polls, most people are not really that bothered about immigration. If they were they would vote for parties that seriously wanted to do something about it.

            That’s democracy.

            • HookesLaw

              Dim
              All you will get is a Europhile Labour govt
              All great parties are coalitions …. thats democracy
              Split the right wing vote and you let in the Left
              Thats democracy

              • Bo Williams

                You’ll only get that because not enough people care about immigration and EU withdrawal to make it a priority when they vote at a General Election. If most of the population believe leaving the EU is essential for the wellbeing of the country they will vote for a party offering that policy.

                It really is that straight forward.

            • sfin

              And what is not democracy is a major area of our public policy being decided by a technocracy in Brussels.

              Throughout it’s history the EU has been about salami slicing power away from individual nation states and consolidating it centrally – it would be naive to suppose it would stop at immigration.

              Immigration is not the issue here – democratic accountability is.

              • Bo Williams

                But the British people have the democratic right to vote to leave the EU. They even have a political party (UKIP) whose whole purpose is withdrawal from the EU. UKIP are gaining in popularity but have not yet reached 50% of the voters.

                If there are Labour, Lib Dem or SNP supporters who want to leave the EU they know when they vote for these parties that they will not give them the opportunity to hold a referendum. They obviously do not believe the issue is important enough to change their vote.

          • HookesLaw

            No he has moved to outright racism plus a dose of hysteria
            Millions a people are not looking for jobs here There are 28 countries in the EU plus Norway for their employment
            If we left the EU it would not improve job prospects.
            In terms of net migration l see that thousands of Ex Pats are now returning from Spain

            • Kevin T

              There are 2 countries in the EU which are both large enough to accommodate millions of immigrants and possessing strong economies. Us and Germany.

            • Bo Williams

              Millions of people have already come here looking for work since 2000. Why try to hide that fact? You should celebrate it. Shout it from the rooftops.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                He’d rather lie about it.

            • sfin

              And you totally miss the point of this campaign…

              …there is absolutely no point in any of us debating the subject of inter European migration. That area of policy has been removed from the power of national governments to decide and is decided by a technocracy in Brussels – Mandelson’s “post democratic age”.

              The point is this:

              Do you want to exercise the power of your vote and influence public policy in the country in which you live – or not.

        • Pootles

          And what was ‘the BNP vote’ before the BNP ? Oh, the ‘Labour vote’, the ‘working class movement’s vote’, the ‘socialist vote’. It’s nobody’s vote expect the individuals who possess the vote. The very fact that the Labour movement came to take those votes for granted, while at the same time colluding with the free-marketeers they clamed to oppose in the elite project that is globalisaton, has led to Labour’s loss of support. And about time.

    • Des Demona

      How is claiming that 26 million people in Europe are after your job an accurate description of the situation? Only on the ludicrous assumption that 26 million people in the EU want to come and work in this country.
      It is in fact risible fear-mongering of the worst kind.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        You know, your sophistry isn’t going to help your position much, lad.

        • Des Demona

          If you’d like to point out where I’m engaging in sophistry and the poster isn’t I’d be happy to re-examine my position?

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …a more efficient question is, where aren’t you engaging in sophistry, lad?

            • Des Demona

              Ah ok, you just wanted to use the word but actually have no evidence to back it up?
              There must be a word for that too. How about Duncan- Smithism?
              ” No I don’t have any actual evidence but I’ll just say it anyway and keep saying it until someone believes me”

              • the viceroy’s gin

                Your post is the “evidence”, lad.

                • Des Demona

                  Mmmmmm so you accuse me of putting forward what looks like a plausible argument but is in fact fallacious, but when asked to reason why you call it fallacious your argument seems to be ‘just because’.
                  Bit silly really doncha think?

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  No, actually, your sophistry is being dismantled quite well in this argument, lad.

                • Des Demona

                  Where? By you? lol your argument is ”it’s sophistry because I say so”

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  It’s sophistry because it’s sophistry, lad.

                • Des Demona

                  QED you have no argument sonny boy

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Actually, that’s false.

                • Wessex Man

                  i’ve got to say I admire your endurance.

                • Des Demona

                  Unfortunately endurance is no substitute for intelligence.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  It appears to be in your case. The point is not that 26 million will come but that they could and there is nothing anyone here could do to stop them. It’s about managing risk which the party you support appears to be entirely clueless about.

                • Des Demona

                  How utterly disingenuous. The poster sets out scare-monger by giving the impression that 26 million Europeans are after your job. That is the point. That is what it says. And your bluff and bluster doesn’t change that,

                  Anything to say about the 6 million Brits who live abroad? Should they have had restrictions placed on them? Not if you’re a little Englander obviously.

                  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6210358.stm

                • Kitty MLB

                  Are you another of the Telemachus many ‘ brothers’ or
                  identities – I cannot keep up with this place, some times.

                • Des Demona

                  I assume Telemachus is another poster who doesn’t necessarily swallow all the right wing propaganda here?
                  Sorry to disappoint you but I don’t know the chap.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  “And your obfuscation, bluff and bluster doesn’t change that,”

                  Hardly obfuscation, bluff and bluster. Merely reiterating the point that Farage has made himself many times. Which is perfectly true. There is absolutely no limit to the number of Europeans who can come here.

                  “Anything to say about the 6 million Brits who live abroad?”

                  No. Because they are beside the point. They live abroad and not all in one country and in countries other than within the EU. Their presence in those other countries and whether it causes any problems is for those countries to deal with and debate. Specious comparison, although one much favoured by online socialist pundits like you.

                  I treat the “little Englander” epithet with the contempt it deserves.

                • Des Demona

                  And your reasoning for the fact that there is no limit to the number of Europeans who can come here is a bad thing is?
                  Because you think limitless Europeans will come here? Because you think that young, vibrant workers who want to do well and grow our economy are worse than the ageing expats we export to drain other countries health services? That Europeans who want to come here are inferior to Brits who want to move to Europe? What?
                  So Brits who live abroad are beside the point? Why? Oh and they are problems for other countries to deal with?
                  And you treat my talking about little Englanders with contempt?
                  You need to open your eyes little Englander.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Now now. This is not about what I think. Your “presumption posed as a question” gambit won’t work. I am merely explaining the reasoning behind the posters and how they do not represent what you say they represent. In other words I am correcting your misperceptions or deliberate distortions, not making UKIP’s argument for them. I can see the point but that doesn’t mean I have to advocate it for them. I’m a voter not a party member.

                  My eyes are open, thanks, and have been open long enough to fully understand the machinations and verbal gymnastics of you and your ilk which always work on the presumption of always being right about everything and that anyone who dissents is always wrong. And when that dissent persists resort to ad hominem as you have done here. It’s politics and different opinions not a religious crusade against heretics, although I understand you are a “movement” not a party so I suppose a certain amount of quasi-religious extremism and fanaticism is to be expected.

                  I’ll ignore your nasty ageism. It is fairly typical of “progressives” who can’t wait for those who can actually remember the past they habitually lie about to fade away.

                • Des Demona

                  You honestly don’t see that your words show you up for the selfish little Englander that you are.
                  ”My eyes are open, thanks, and have been open long enough to fully understand the machinations and verbal gymnastics of you and your ilk which always work on the presumption of always being right about everything and that anyone who dissents is always wrong.”
                  And yet you rush in to attack me on the obvious presumption that you are right? No facts, no figures, just your opinion. You perhaps need to live a little.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  No, that is what you see my words as doing.

                  I have no presumption that I am right. Let me repeat this because you don’t seem to get it. You misrepresented the posters as suggesting 26 million ‘would’ come here. I corrected you that the posters suggest 26 million ‘could’ come here, which, however unlikely, is factually correct.

                  The relativism you introduced about British expatriates was a specious argument and you then extended that by suggesting that because I consider it irrelevant to the issue of the UKIP posters (how other countries protect their borders or deal with their immigration problems) that makes me a “little Englander”.

                  I have lived plenty, thanks, and I dare say probably more adventurously than you have or ever will, so I don’t need patronising.

                • Des Demona

                  I have no presumption that I am right. Let me repeat this because you don’t seem to get it
                  You really don’t see the irony. LOL

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Resorting to ‘LOL’ doesn’t strengthen your case.

                • Des Demona

                  Not answering any questions points or addressing any points certainly doesn’t strengthen yours

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Really? What points would those be then? The highly selective “questions” for which you have already prefaced your own simplistic answers? Like these?:-

                  “Because you think limitless Europeans will come here? Because you think that young, vibrant workers who want to do well and grow our economy are worse than the ageing expats we export to drain other countries health services?”

                  For which one might counter with “Are all Europeans who come here young, vibrant workers who want to ‘grow our economy'” or “Are all expats ageing and exported to drain other countries health services?”. But I’m not playing your silly game, that is all.

                • Des Demona

                  Why do you think these Europeans come here? To retire? As benefit tourists? The vast majority are workers, paying taxes, growing the economy. .

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Oh dear. I couldn’t possibly determine the motivation for each of the Europeans who come here but there are established issues with benefit tourists, health tourists and criminals, the bottom line being that with free movement across borders their motivation is not subject to any scrutiny or control. Only this morning there is a report about the incompetence demonstrated by our authorities in getting rid of foreign criminals.

                  I do wonder why so many leftists have this strange romanticism about foreigners and seem to go to extraordinary lengths to justify a foreign free-for-all on this relatively small island, with limited resources, an already over large population, over subscribed health and education, a creaking infrastructure and fragile logistics. I can only put it down to what is often asserted – that basically they must hate their own people.

                • Des Demona

                  Keep on dancing. The poster implies that 26 million Europeans are after your job – yes or no?
                  Is that a gross distortion of the truth? Yes or no?

                • Colonel Mustard

                  I am not dancing. Everyone sensible knows what the poster means. Rhetoric is an established part of political campaigning. 57% of people polled agreed that the posters were a hard hitting reflection of reality. Only 35% disagreed which were no doubt the usual Labour party suspects and their client rent seekers. Get over it.

                  http://order-order.com/2014/04/24/public-says-ukip-posters-arent-racist-agree-with-farage-that-they-reflect-reality/

                • Des Demona

                  Look a little closer at the results which are not based on questions like agreeing or disagreeing with Farage’s own statement.
                  50% supported the message 41% didn’t with 9 don’t knows;.
                  So half of those polled haven’t fallen for the scaremongering. Shame it isn’t more but in the absence of any posters attacking these gross distortions then the result isn’t surprising.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  It’s not scaremongering. It’s a simple fact. Anyone can come. Or are you one of those who insists that the influx of European economic migrants has been wholly beneficial with no downsides and no risks?

                  In fact with the economy on the upturn the risk increases, especially with the disparity in wages and standards of living across Europe.

                  “Support the message” is so ambiguous and the results so out of sync with the rest that I bet many of those who voted ‘no’ thought they were voting against Europeans being able to be “after their jobs”

                • Bo Williams

                  I don’t think even the most rabid xenophobe believes when they apply for a job at their local Tesco they are going to stand inline with 26 million other people.

                  However, they are aware that they could potentially lose out to a new arrival from Romania. Some people think this is a good thing. Some people think this is a bad thing. But as things stand any Romania can come and work in Britain and nobody can stop them.

                  Labour, Conservatives & Liberal Democrats think uncontrolled borders within the EU is the way forward. UKIP, along with most countries in the world outside the EU, believe countries should control their own borders.

                  The UKIP position would not be particularly controversial in virtually ever country outside of Europe.

                • Des Demona

                  Well that’s the free market economy. Are you for it or against it? Or does it depend how it affects you?

                • Bo Williams

                  It has its pros and cons. Not many other countries in the world open their borders to virtually unlimited people. India certainly does not, nor Japan, Australia, Canada etc.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  I’m not convinced free movement and the free market economy are mutually inclusive.

                • Conway

                  Moreover, the British job may not even be advertised in Britain. How about that for a level playing field?

                • Conway

                  It seems that many of the British who live in Spain have had enough and are leaving. When most British people have left the EU, what will your argument consist of then?

                • Realpolitik

                  Most of those 6 million are retired pensioners with money to spend, unlike the immigrants over here.

                • Des Demona

                  So they probably don’t pay tax and drain that countries health resources. Good for them.
                  ”unlike the immigrants over here”
                  You really think that? You think that Europeans coming here have no money to spend? You think some of the 3 or 4 hundred thousand French in London alone are sponging off the state? Or the Poles or Germans, or any other nationality when the figures show that the percentage of immigrants claiming benefits is way lower than the indigenous population?

                • Realpolitik

                  No, these countries aren’t a soft-touch like Britain.

                  I do think the majority of immigrants who come here to live and work don’t have any money to spend.

                  I wouldn’t think so many Germans or French, but certainly people from the poorer parts of the EU.

                  I’m sure the percentage of immigrants claiming benefits is “way” lower, I would be surprised if that wasn’t the case.

                • Des Demona

                  Are you not aware that the EU has a reciprocal health care agreement?
                  The majority of immigrants don’t have money to spend??? What do they live on? You agree that the vast majority are not claiming benefits so they must be earning and spending ,yes?

                • Realpolitik

                  My God, he’s cracked it. Yes they are spending a small proportion of the money they earn here to survive.

                • Des Demona
                • Realpolitik

                  How does that contradict ANYTHING I’ve said?

                  They might be good for our GDP, but tell that to the man on the street who can’t find work.

                • Des Demona

                  If you can actually find a man on the street who has had his job taken by an immigrant I’d be happy to.

                • Realpolitik

                  Look at our unemployment statistics, or just walk around you local town, they aren’t hard to find.

                  Why provide a source that has no relevance, and suggest it contradicts something I’ve said when it doesn’t?

                  Why then ignore my question?

                  Why are you so against our own people working?

                  Why do you think immigrants working here would boost our economy more than unemployed people getting those jobs?

                  Why do you think that millions of elderly pensioners spending their life’s
                  savings abroad is worse immigration than foreigners working here?

                  Why do you think immigration is more important than leaving the EU?

                • Des Demona

                  You seem to be making the flawed assumption that in the majority of cases if an immigrant has a job they must have either taken it from someone or prevented someone local from taking it.
                  But let me take your questions in turn
                  1) I’m not.
                  2) I don’t think that. Again you make the false assumption that our unemployed are either willing or able to do those jobs. If you bothered to read the link I gave you you would see that immigrants tend to have a far higher level of education than the bulk of unemployed people so it’s hardly the same job market in many cases..
                  3)Which would you prefer? Non productive ageing and costly immigrants or productive low cost immigrants?
                  4)I don’t. I think there are many reasons pro and con the EU. Xenophobia isn’t one of them.

                • Realpolitik

                  “You seem to be making the flawed assumption that in the majority of
                  cases if an immigrant has a job they must have either taken it from
                  someone or prevented someone local from taking it.”

                  Not at all, I’m stating the fact that in ALL cases this is the case, it has to be, it’s a scientific certainty.

                  1. You have provided a source which doesn’t contradict anything I’v said/

                  2. Our unemployed are willing and able to do these jobs. And the ones that aren’t should be paid more to encourage them to do the work.Why don’t you think it’s possible to train our people? That way not only are they not taking out of the system but are paying into it. WHAT A SOCIETY! Much better for our GDP than immigrant labour who send their money home, that’s for sure!
                  I think skilled immigration is important, I don’t deny that, but you are defending MASS immigration, both very different things.

                  3. I’d prefer using the 57 million we send to the EU daily to train our own unemployed and provide an incentive to do the jobs immigrants are doing.

                  4. there isn’t a single reason to stay in the EU, I can provide hundreds to leave. Xenophobia isn’t something UKIP stand for, they want controlled immigration. You know that, but you also know your argument is flawed so feel the need to be invidious.

                • Des Demona

                  You don’t seem to grasp there is very little correlation between immigrants and taking peoples jobs. The idea that “immigrants take our jobs” is ridiculous to anyone who thinks seriously about how an economy works. If a million people migrate to the UK, who is going to sell them food and clothes, build them houses, teach their children? When the population is larger there is more demand for workers. It increases demand and jobs.
                  1) what did you say? That immigrants have no money to spend? My source pointed out the huge net benefit they produce. Didn’t you read it?
                  2) Un-evidenced rant.
                  3) The EU funds a lot of training in this country together with agricultural, industrial and infrastructural grants. The money goes both ways.
                  4)Good for you.

                • Realpolitik

                  What’s more ridiculous is our unemployment is so high; yet we are still encouraging uncontrolled immigration.
                  I studied economics at Oxford and occasionally give lectures at secondary schools. I am well versed in Economics, clearly more so than you.

                  if 1 million people migrate to the UK there would be a huge oversupply of labour and our unemployment would rocket. They will buy food and clothes with the money that the English person could have earned and spent. They will not be able to buy knew homes as most of them are impoverished (and according to you don’t claim housing benefit) the majority live in squalid conditions with many other immigrants in shared accommodation. The tax-payer will foot the bill for their children’s education in one of our packed schools.

                  A larger population does increase the demand for jobs; but by having more people you are exceeding job creation. this is 4th form economics, it’s so basic.

                  1. They do have money to spend, but only the money that was already in circulation; which the unemployed British worker is losing out on. The source doesn’t contradict this fact.

                  2. A clear concede on your part.

                  3. hahahahahaha, good lord, do you have any idea what the CAP is doing to our farming community??????????? It’s beyond funny; if I were you I’ remove what you just wrote. the money goes one way and only one way.

                  4. I’m glad you’re not challenging it, it shows you know how flawed your argument is.

                  Now, seen as you can’t be bothered to contest any of my hard-hitting points, I see no benefit in continuing this conversation, your mind is already decided and you have chosen to ignore my strongest arguments, which by the way render yours laughable.

                • Des Demona

                  Your logic is entirely flawed. You assume that immigrants are mainly poor huddled masses living in squalid accommodation, which is sheer xenophobia. The vast majority come here to work, to add value to the economy and are a huge net benefit. If you ever did economics then you have been blinded by your racist dogma.
                  1) oh now you are agreeing they have money to spend. Finally. But you cling on to the contention it is money that would have gone to a British worker. Rubbish.
                  2)Huh? Why would I argue with an un-evidenced rant?
                  3)The CAP pays our farmers around 5 billion a year. What have you got against that? Add to that the 3 or 4 billion we receive annually for other projects and clearly the money doesn’t all go one way. Another lie.
                  4) Does it? In your dreams. You made a statement I can’t be bothered listing a hundred reasons for the EU but if you want to list a hundred against be my guest.
                  I’ve consistently demolished your ”strongest” arguments. What planet are you on?

                • Realpolitik

                  I find it exceedingly tiresome how you ignore any arguments that you know are incontestable; but which contradict your leftist dogma.

                  I didn’t say they were huddled masses, I said the majority are impoverished and live i shared accommodation that to you or I would appear squalid. The vast majority don’t come here with loads of money to spend, if any.

                  What exactly does this have to do with race? Do you know what racism is?

                  1. Please show me where I have EVER said they don’t have money to spend, my point on this was clear; they don’t bring money with them, they spend a small proportion of the money they earn and send the rest home. Unlike the retired pensioners who were the initial topic of discussion. My argument has been wholly consistent. please stop degrading yourself using lies, any third party can see that my argument has remained the same.

                  2. You wouldn’t argue with it because you know I’m right and you don’t have a leg to stand on. But by selectively avoiding that one point you validate all of my others, for that i thank you, but I’d thank you more if you addressed my “2,” argument.

                  3. Don’t spread lies on here, we pay 10 times that into this policy. The CAP has not only worked against our farmers but the CAP has worked against the long-term interest of consumers, the environment and it’s not only us many developing countries are being unfairly treated in world markets by the effects of import tariffs on food and export subsidies to loss-making European farmers The CAP is widely criticised as a classic example of government failure.

                  4. Just provide a single reason to remain in the EU and I’ll crush it in the manner I’ve crushed all of your other puerile arguments.

                • Des Demona

                  Oh good grief – you said it right here

                  ” I do think the majority of immigrants who come here to live and work don’t have any money to spend.”

                  So much for your wholly consistent argument. You are beyond parody. And on it goes.

                  ”I didn’t say they were huddled masses, I said the majority are impoverished and live i shared accommodation that to you or I would appear squalid. ”
                  Huh? And the difference is? Either way a grossly offensive statement that in no way bears any reality to the majority of EU migrants.
                  Ummmmm the UK contribution to the EU is about 14 billion a year – how in the name of all saints is that ten times 5 billion? And you say you did economics at Oxford.
                  This is too nonsensical for me to give any more time to. You have some delusions to overcome.

                • Realpolitik

                  You’ve just proved my point, “they come to live and WORK”, as they are WORKING they do have money to spend, therefore, unless you thought I was endorsing slave labour, you’ve proved the lack of ambiguity in my statement.

                  The difference is “huddled masses” was added by you to discredit my point that the vast majority are impoverished and live in shared accommodation. You added “huddled masses” in order to embellish what I said, there was no need for it. I think it’s fairly common knowledge that the majority of EU immigrants don’t have very much money and often live in sub-standard shared accommodation.

                  I meant the policy costs us 10 times that which we receive, you can see its a mistake as it doesn’t fit with the narrative, my error.

                • Des Demona

                  Just how ignorant are you? How can the CAP cost us more than our entire contribution to the EU budget? Stupidity of this magnitude doesn’t deserve debate.

                • Realpolitik
                • Des Demona

                  Ha! You’ll wait a long time. Made up figures from UKIP where even the writer says estimates vary wildly and can’t be proven – based on how much cheaper they estimate food could be sourced from non EU countries? You’re having a laugh.
                  The net cost to the UK of EU membership is around 5 billion a year. That’s less than half the international aid budget. Trade with the EU is 12 billion A MONTH – as much as with the rest of the entire world. And you want to jeopardise that because you don’t like the fact that a lot of ”foreigners” can come here if they want. Foreigners you debase as being largely poor and living in squalid conditions.
                  Keep drinking the Kool-Aid, hopefully the majority have much more sense.

                • Realpolitik

                  I’m sorry that those figures aren’t satisfactory for you. This is a fundamental issue, but not worth debating when you deny the truth.

                  If you’re so deluded that you genuinely think the bankrupt EU can afford to stop trading with its larges export market in the world just because we don’t bow before them then you are very naive. But I guess from experience any opinion that differs from yours is inelectally wanting, any sources; untrustworthy. But if you genuinely think the EU would stop trading then why on earth do you want these mentally unbalance goons running our country?

                  This is not only immigration

                • Des Demona

                  Deny the truth? Your problem is that you think hypothetical, selective and projected figures, which even the author admits to being flawed, is the truth.
                  What makes you think that the UK is the EU’s biggest export market? EU trade with non EU countries tops 17 trillion euros – on terms negotiated by the EU, second largest trading block in the world.
                  I didn’t say the EU would stop trading withy us, but as you should be aware we would then be subject to EU trade tariffs making us uncompetitive.
                  The head of the CBI and most of the CEO’s of multi national companies have said it would be a mistake to leave the EU. The only real argument I’ve heard for leaving is ”we don’t like foreigners coming here and we don’t like EU wide laws”.
                  Little Englander in a nutshell.

      • Kevin T

        That’s how many are unemployed in the EU and there are only so many countries with jobs. If you wanted to work in an EU country, where would you go? Spain? France? Italy? Greece? Romania? The majority of jobs advertised abroad are here and Germany.

        • Des Demona

          So? Do you want to move to France or Germany?

          • Conway

            Frankly, no. I love France and spend a lot of time there, but they tend to look after their own when it comes to employment and, to be honest, since it’s so difficult to fire anybody, most firms are very cagy about taking people on. The Germans I don’t necessarily see eye to eye with, although the country is beautiful.

            • Des Demona

              And no doubt the vast majority of people from other countries would feel similarly about moving here.

      • Realpolitik

        There are 26 million unemployed people, they are after every job, why wouldn’t they be? 900,000 out of 1.6 million advertised in Europe this month were British jobs.

        • Des Demona

          Because the vast majority of them wouldn’t consider moving countries to get a job. It’s not that hard, come on.

          • Realpolitik

            You clearly know more about the state of the Euro than me, but If I was unemployed and could see the economy of my country imploding, I’d have the sense to leave and work in a soft-touch country that will pay me 10 times what I would earn in my country, I’d even bring my elderly parents with me to take advantage of healthcare.

            • Des Demona

              There are so many logical fallacies in that statement that it renders it almost meaningless.

              • Realpolitik

                The world must be a confusing place for you.

    • you_kid

      We live in a competitive world – that is the situation described in full.
      Only socialists would want to revert to protectionism.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        You seem to be conflating unfettered immigration with protectionism. That would be a useless distraction.

        • you_kid

          ‘Unfettered’ is a myth. Who is not fettering it?

          • the viceroy’s gin

            Now you seem to be running away from your false conflation. That would be a useless diversion.

            • you_kid

              I outline what’s coming. You will follow that train of thought in your own time.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                You really should stop swapping nicknames, lad. It gets tedious. And you’re still a socialist nutter.

                • you_kid

                  A socialist exposed yet again.
                  It appears it is only you who enjoys the conceptual artistry of diversion.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  How many nicknames are you up to now?

                  And how’s the goat?

                • you_kid

                  I do not nick names.
                  No one has yet come up with the you_kid persona, I have.

                  You like my wind turbine? So do the UKIP front row, it appears.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Don’t be shy, lad. How many nicknames have you conjured up now? And how’s the goat?

                • you_kid

                  You_kid is unique.
                  it combines the fallacy of saying one thing and then sponging and troughing as much as you can from what you publicly criticise. Jeremy Hunt was not available to pose for my avatar.

                • Wessex Man

                  oh blow, I thought it was to show your age.

                • you_kid

                  It is, I am of voting age.
                  Be very scared of the you_kids.

                • Wessex Man

                  So you never though of going by the moniker of say I am an adult and sometimes, very rarely I grant you, say something adult.

                • you_kid

                  WM, you are a seasoned contributor to these pages.
                  Allow me to focus on what no one before has focussed on: you_kids.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Come on, come on. How many nicknames, lad?

                  And I’m worried about that goat. How is he?

      • The_Missing_Think

        Did you leave your doors and windows open all last night, or did you use “protectionism” to keep things good and safe? Ohh… what a surprise, you locked things… right?

        So you use “protectionism” on an individual basis, but you are against collective proctectionism for the competing society you are a member of?

        Why the convenient difference in morality… hhhmm?

        • you_kid

          What are you protecting yourself from? Theft?
          It would be a fallacy to conflate one with the other.

          I repeat what I stated yesterday: these ads are for losers.

          • The_Missing_Think

            Protection is protection, eg car seat belts, helicopters for ground troops, it’s a very long list, so no conflation.

            Stop protecting yourself with deflection tactics, and answer the question, more directly.

            • you_kid

              Protection from what? Theft?
              It would be a fallacy not to explore that simple question further.

              • The_Missing_Think

                You’re still trying to conflate and deflect because you have no valid rationale, moral argument.

                Just another void, Goodbye.

                • you_kid

                  Taking a job in an open market is not THEFT.
                  It is a deal between employer and employee.

                  Stop conflating what does not compare – bye bye indeed.

                • The_Missing_Think

                  I never once said it was theft, not once… so you’re hallucinating imaginery words again.

                  I avoid people that hallucinate words… sorry.

                • you_kid

                  Oh hello again, dawg.
                  You leave your house unlocked? Why?

          • Wessex Man

            why do you feel the need to come on the same thread and say the same thing, are you a loser?

            • you_kid

              Charles was inspired by my post yesterday and wrote this piece. Suck it up.

              • Wessex Man

                I rather think he was probably in shock.

          • DWWolds

            That’s not what a YouGov poll suggests.

      • Kevin T

        So let’s open the door to Africa and Asia too. I mean, why stop at Europe? Are you a racist?

    • Tom M

      My sentiments exactly.

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