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The Ukip posters will offend more Londoners than eastern Europeans

22 April 2014

22 April 2014

Globalisation is like a rising tide; we’re all living in our separate ponds with their own little social ecosystems until the floodwater starts to rise and turns them into one big lake. Many fish, especially, the big ones, are going to benefit but many will suffer in this frightening new world. It is that fear which Ukip’s new posters are aimed at addressing (or exploiting, depending on your view).

Sure, Europe is about free movement of labour, but that movement is highly imbalanced and has been for a number of years. Far more people are seeking to come from southern and eastern Europe to work in Britain than vice versa, and therefore that puts pressure on some British workers (let alone the question of infrastructure). If British plumbers and builders were moving to Poland or Lithuania in equal numbers then, yes, free movement would be beneficial to all. That is not the case.

Between first world countries migration is heaviest among the talented and successful, who have always been more mobile, and this gives people a misleading impression. Although migrants are more likely to be university educated than the natives, Britain still exports more graduates than it imports (at the last count), and migration varies drastically by country of origin. Migration from the second world (as much of eastern Europe still is) and even more so the third world has a totally different nature to that from, say, the United States.

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And media types who lament the ‘protectionist’ nature of Ukip rather ignore the fact that their jobs in the media are automatically protected from foreign competition because they require culturally specific skills; the BBC is not going to sack the Today team and replace them with some guys from Bangalore, however well they read English. That’s partly why people in the media are overwhelming in favour of globalisation.

More generally, support or opposition to Ukip’s brand of economic and cultural protectionism divides along class lines; the wealthy and educated have the most to benefit from free movement, and suffer almost none of the downsides (those new houses we desperately need aren’t going to be built on Hampstead Heath).

But the wealthy in Britain, more than in any other country, have also lost the idea of concentric loyalty, that is the belief that they have a duty to look after the interests of a compatriot more than that of a foreigner. This is sometimes called pathological altruism and has wider repercussions for levels of social solidarity and our ability and willingness to pool resources; although that term can be misleading, as it can be quite a selfish worldview dressed up as liberalism.

And people who feel morally superior for welcoming or employing an eastern European might want to ask them how they feel about it. Lots of Poles who came here in 2004 would like to return but feel trapped because of jobs, mortgages or relationships; that’s the nature of migration, a temporary thing that can become permanent and is often disconcerting and unhappy. The chaps who hang around my local park drinking Lech at 11 in the morning aren’t ‘winners’ that we Brits have benevolently chosen. Perhaps that’s why one in 10 Poles here who have chosen a party say they intend to vote for Ukip.


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Show comments
  • benpest

    Immigration only benefits the rich.It offers nothing to the working class only low wage or unemployment.
    As well as other social problems,, etc,housing hospital waiting lists,
    Letting alot of people into our country (especially a country thats a small island ) is not a good thing.
    It never worked out too well for the native Americans, or the australian aborigines.

  • trace9

    Tsk-tsk! Didn’t DH Lawrence write; ‘Fish, oh fish, so little matters, whether the waters rise and cover the Earth or fall into the hollow places – all one to you!’ Can he possibly have been wrong? Surely some metaphorical confusion above – personally, I’m looking for a nice hollow place tho’.

  • andyrwebman

    “But the wealthy in Britain, more than in any other country, have also
    lost the idea of concentric loyalty, that is the belief that they have a
    duty to look after the interests of a compatriot more than that of a
    foreigner.”

    Spot on. This idea of “look after your own” is what the lefties are calling racist. It seems that to avoid being racist, you have to be willing to bankroll the world!

    We need someone to loudly declare to the left the following

    “Actually, comrade plonker, the British people don’t care about your ridiculously over inclusive definition of racism. And we certainly don’t care to the extent that we’re willing to let our country run to rack and ruin to avoid being called “racist” by a bunch of lefties”

  • beenzrgud

    Let no-one be in any doubt, whilst there may have been some economic sanity in its early days, the EU is now a purely political project. Those at the top are working feverishly to paper over its ever increasing economic shortcomings. Anyone with even a passing interest in history will know that you can ignore economic reality for a time, but eventually it will burst forth. As Mr Farage pointed out this is not usually a painless process either. I think it best if we are not in it when it eventually goes pop !

  • The Laughing Cavalier

    During the NuLabour years it seemed that immigration policy was driven by the insatiable demand for cheap domestic servants of the chattering classes. Little has changed since then.

  • Bonkim

    Sound logic.

  • Jonathan Burns

    The Liberal Democrats need exterminated in the UK.
    The Tories and Labour need bringing down a peg or two.
    The Euro election is the best chance to do this and make them pay.
    Lets face it you could swap the three current leaders over to any of the other two parties and would anyone notice the difference?

  • Alexsandr

    will michael crick apologise for his slur that UKIP are racist? crick looked daft at the time. maybe he should be asked about this now?

  • saffrin

    There are plenty of EU trolls on this thread, none of which have one single positive argument to support our continued membership of the warmongering, positively anti-democracy, waistfull spendthrift, habitually lying, European Union.

    • LimesOut

      Not as many as hate mongering pro-UKiP trolls. £1.5 million worth of troll, lets calculate: 10,000 UKiP trolls / 1,500,000 hours / £1 per hour

      At least you are working for your upkeep, on top of your pension paid for by Eastern Europeans.

      • saffrin

        If LabLabCon didn’t import so many unwanted immigrants, our own unemployed wouldn’t be out of work.
        And if you really want to know who the hate mongers are, look at the last Labour Government and their European Union masters..

        • LimesOut

          If they were indeed unwanted, they would have joined much larger contingent of non EU immigrants in the dole queue. You admit, that they are working for their upkeep. Whats more, they are paying your pensions, you UKiP lot!

          • Patricia

            “Whats more, they are paying your pensions, you UKiP lot!”
            How can they if they are low-paid ? Who is paying their child benefits and who will pay their pensions ?

            • LimesOut

              I suggest that you get acquainted with real reality, instead of repeating this slanderous UKiP mantra over and over and over. The only real function of UKiP is to anchor eastern European immigration as poor, low skilled and diseased (sic!) and hence degrade them in social and economic pecking order.

              I wished that there could be a way to propel UKiP to power, then Brits would realise what they really wished for.

              • Patricia

                “…repeating this slanderous UKiP mantra over and over and over.

                The slander is coming from you and you are very repetitious.

                Nobody makes Eastern Europeans come to this country.

                Who Brits vote for in their own country is their own business.

                • LimesOut

                  That is another lie. English firms, English employment agencies and even special search parties were ferreting Poland high and low for the most desperate and ignorant labourers with nothing to loose, so that they can exploit them here. Remember famous search parties?

                  And to bully the vulnerable migrants without any repercussions, which by the way seems to be how you perceive the ‘just’ social order.

                • Patricia

                  “…agencies and even special search parties were ferreting Poland high and low for the most desperate and ignorant labourers with nothing to loose, so that they can exploit them here. Remember famous search parties?”

                  In an earlier post, you said Polish workers were better educated etc than UK workers – now you say the opposite !
                  Your arguments are losing credibility.

                • saffrin

                  If they had any credibility in the first place.
                  LimesOut is just another paid EU troll.

                • Patricia

                  “If they had any credibility in the first place.
                  LimesOut is just another paid EU troll.”

                  I think you’re right. Best ignore in future.

                • saffrin

                  UKIP is the future.

                • Patricia

                  “UKIP is the future.”

                  LO seems to think so – it’s doing a great pro-UKIP publicity job.

                • saffrin

                  Main Stream Media hatchet job more likes.
                  The EU paid for a massive propaganda campaign in Ireland to get the Irish to change their vote on the Lisbon Treaty remember?
                  If you think badly of UKIP now, you will positively hate them with all your sole during the 2015 general election campaign.
                  The EU is targeting UKIP because they have much support in the UK and obviously, any UKIP win will scupper the EU’s end-game goal to control (undemocratically)
                  well over 500,000,000 European citizens.

                  There is an old adage; “You shouldn’t believe everything you read in the newspapers”

                  .

                • Patricia

                  “The EU is targeting UKIP because they have much support in the UK and obviously, any UKIP win will scupper the EU’s end-game goal to control (undemocratically)well over 500,000,000 European citizens.”

                  Very politburo.

                  Seems to be that the pro-EU trolls semi-coherent comments are more likely to sway people to vote UKIP.

                • LimesOut

                  I am flattered, but no, Luve. I am just the humble Polish immigrant.

                • LimesOut

                  If you are getting confused, then you do not think logical.

                  And just to be clear, I was merely comparing average Polish immigrant to the average UKiP supporter, say Mr. Lampitt, true Brit born and bread in Zimbabwe.

                  58% of Brits consider UKiP despicable. In my experience, the percentage is even higher.

          • saffrin

            There are hundreds of thousands of UK jobs advertised across Europe that are not advertised at home, which is why EU migrants are finding the jobs our own don’t even get to know about and as for your comment regards pensions, our own unemployed would be contributing to that pension pot if our own were informed about the job opportunities our government keep for immigrant eyes only.
            .
            Furthermore, the lies you hear and read about from the government and media regards immigration is helping the economy is only based on the taxes they pay, without for a moment considering the unemployment and associated benefits claimed by those the immigrants displace. They also fail to include the over burdened public services such as the NHS, schools and social housing mass immigration has created.

            • cartimandua

              They never take into account in work benefits either. Only the top few % of taxpayers are actually net contributors.
              A family of 4 has to earn and pay tax on upwards of 60K.
              That’s only the top what 15%?

            • LimesOut

              First, EU immigration is only a small fraction of non EU immigration. UKiP’s obsessive blaming of only a small fraction of a small fraction of the immigrants, who happen to be the most accommodating and hard working of all, for every single long standing issue in the UK amounts to targeted bullying.

              The only function of UKiP which does not have realistic chance to attain any sort of real power, is to anchor very capable, willing and skilled immigration from eastern Europe as low skilled, poor and diseased (sic!) and hence degrade them in social and economic pecking order.

              British working classes and unemployed graduates of various gender study majors are just a tool, which really serves the interest of Asian and African ‘communities’ in Britain.

      • cartimandua

        Sorry you think Ukip can afford to pay people to be online? On what money?

  • Mike Barnes

    “But the wealthy in Britain, more than in any other country, have also lost the idea of concentric loyalty, that is the belief that they have a duty to look after the interests of a compatriot more than that of a foreigner.”

    I was amazed watching Kay Burley on Sky News this afternoon hassling Nigel because he wanted British workers to come first. She said it was discrimination and even racism towards Eastern Europeans. She had no sense of loyalty to her nation. This is a white, working class woman from Wigan who has been completely swallowed up in the London media bubble. Is her job under threat from an Eastern European?

    I wonder if any of her old pals in Wigan agree with her?

    • LimesOut

      I see that you are very angry about a wide range of issues, such as the EU, immigration, the EU, immigration, same-sex marriage, immigration, the EU and the EU.

    • cartimandua

      And the people who lose out may be of any ethnicity. So who in the eck does she actually care about?

    • Raw England

      London is a rotting, putrid Cancer.

    • sarahsmith232

      Watched her get herself into quite an exercised, puffed up state when going after Patrick O’Flyn ’cause old Nigel had made reference to the white working-class in his debate.
      She lives in a tiny little world, her performance was a put on designed to please and impress the media, self-appointed, ‘elite’, males (most of these males being about legitimately able to claim an ‘elite’ mantle as Mo Ansar is able to describe himself as a high status, intelligent and thoughtful, genuine representative of most of the UK’s Islamic community, you know a bit like that kind of a half-wit male). But these are non too bright, half-wit males that make up the bulk of her world.
      That female couldn’t be any more screamingly obviously a female that’s only and main focus of her daily activities is to the absolute best of her abilities, make herself really very pleasing to men. Isabel Hardman of this publication is another e.g of it, very dif’ kind of breed but the exact same consuming need within her to always calibrate her every utterance, her every gesture, her every behaviour to be as really very pleasing to the males in her world as your daily efforts can achieve.
      They’ll both be getting rewarded for it on a daily basis, their Metro ‘elite’ males will encourage them by telling them they find their views pleasing to them. I doubt either of these females would be able to consider whether this may insular and sheep-like.

    • shebamurphy

      If the woman had brains she’d be dangerous. I don’t think Andrew Neil or Paxman have much to worry about. Honest to God, how did she get her job?

    • andyrwebman

      Foolish woman seems to think we owe the world a living. And also no doubt believes that we have no right to make any demands about integration to whover comes here.

      • LimesOut

        lol! then congratulation to you, UKiP lot, for choosing your hate target so well!

  • LimesOut

    The title does not make any sense. There are 150K of Poles living in London. Most seem reasonably happy and settled. They may find your hypocrisy with regards to the level of education and drinking habits a bit disconcerting, but certainly they will laugh off lowbrow campaign designed to appeal to the most gullible and uneducated Brits. And maybe Pakistanis and Indian immigrants, but I sense that even they would be too smart to fall for this nonsense.

    Lay off your racist stereotypes.

    • cartimandua

      Those are just the people who will be shoved out of work by being undercut or their children will and they know it.

      • LimesOut

        We want good, well paid jobs, for which we have to compete with Asians nowadays. You can keep low paid jobs, if you like it so much!

        Oh wait, is canvassing for UKiP low skilled low paid job nowadays?

        • cartimandua

          No you will be competing with people from Europe with doctorates when you or your children go for what would otherwise be an entry level job.
          There is always going to be someone smarter and cheaper and keener.
          What happens with the “hard working” new arrivals is that naturally they work at a pace no human being can sustain.
          In India there are call centre grads sleeping at their desks.
          When is the time to protect everyone all ready here?
          Or to put it another way who is it you actually care about?

          • LimesOut

            Is canvassing for UKiP outsourced to India then?

            • cartimandua

              What has canvassing got to do with work? Canvassing is something people do on a voluntary basis.
              But again my question . Who is it the open borders crew actually care about? There will always be someone newer ,younger, cheaper, better educated, and keener turning up from the EU and beyond.

    • Patricia

      “Lay off your racist stereotypes.”

      The only person being racist here is you, with your slurs against the host nation and your offensive “LimesOut” avatar.

      • LimesOut

        I see that you envy Muslim minority of this country their special status, precluding any criticism. Seriously, you cannot expect that I would not respond to the barrage of lies, massaged statistics, twisted reality, slurs and targeted bullying, propagated by
        Refco-Farage-ThornInTheSide-Farage and then repeated ad nauseam by a band of UKiP zombies!

        If you want to hear real racist hate slurs and more, then you should go with me to the the well known London street market. I feared for health and life of mine and my six years old, when we went.

        And even more shame on you, because as a reader of this magazine you are most likely in AB, educated minority of UKippers. You should have known better.

        • Patricia

          “I see that you envy Muslim minority of this country their special status…”

          Where in my posts do you “see” that ? I’ve never mentioned Muslims !!

          “And even more shame on you, because as a reader of this magazine you are most likely in AB, educated minority of UKippers. You should have known better.”

          Well, if you are so superior, don’t read the magazine – it’s obviously driving you demented.

          • LimesOut

            ” it’s obviously driving you demented”

            Not sure how this is scored, but I may have won! yuppie!

  • I like Comb-over

    End this cold war nonsense. And look up PISA results! http://www.oecd.org/pisa/keyfindings/pisa-2012-results-overview.pdf

    Another article, which, just like UKiP and Farage, tries to anchor immigration from Soviet occupied countries as poor and unskilled, thus degrade Polish minority in social and economic pecking order. Hitler would be proud of you! Shame!

    • cartimandua

      One part of Germany has better results than the other because of “who” migrated to it.
      Try living near a town where there is little employment and a lot of Eastern Europeans on the dole and on the drink.

      • LimesOut

        I am not talking about German PISA results, I am talking about Polish results, objectively demonstrating education level in Polish schools and the intellectual capabilities of the Slavs.

        I am very sorry for your leaving conditions, but I seriously doubt if you could find the town you described in the UK, because there are very few Polish people on the dole and they tend drink far less than the average Brit, even after Farage and his clique are removed as the outliers.

        I can grant you, that Polish immigration tend to be younger and better educated than the average UKiP supporter. Perhaps that is the reason for the resentment?

        • cartimandua

          It is definitely in the UK and I live near its well known deprivation not in it. There are a lot of Eastern Europeans living there on the dole it bears out what I have been saying.

          They have been pushed out of work by even newer arrivals.

          In the crop picking areas people come and pick during the season and then go onto the dole and drink for the rest.

          In Wisbeach a third of the residents are not locals.

          They will all use services their taxes (if they pay them) will not cover.

          http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/from-venice-of-the-fens-to-magnet-for-eastern-european-workers-1.1660930

          Many migrants of course are also exploited.

          “Since 2004, 1.5 million eastern Europeans moved to Britain: a million have stayed. Poles fill one-fifth of all “packers, bottlers, canners” jobs, or nearly one in six of those in food-processing plants, according to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which campaigns against poverty and for social change.

          Given trends, one-fifth of the population in Britain will be foreign-born by 2020. A majority living in major cities, such as London, Birmingham and Leicester, will be non-white by then, says author David Goodhart in a new book, The British Dream.

          • LimesOut

            That is a blatant lie. If you are taking information from UKiP posters, you are bound to wake up with your hand in the chamber pot. Have a good day!

            • Patricia

              ” …you are bound to wake up with your hand in the chamber pot…..

              We have flush loos nowadays.

              • cartimandua

                Not where he is posting from apparently.

            • cartimandua

              You are not worried then about migrants being exploited as cheap labour then one wonders why. Are you a gangmaster?
              A “recruitment” agency?
              The Rowntree Trust is the most decent concerned organization going.

              • LimesOut

                I am very worried. But UKiP rhetoric is making their situation far, far worse. Even dangerous. They do not deserve this.

                • cartimandua

                  But your argument is shhh don’t speak about it. It just has to be stopped and that means out of the EU.
                  I was reading an article today about girls from Moldova “promised jobs” in various places.
                  You shouldn’t mention it eh?
                  Open borders mean nothing can be controlled adequately.

        • Patricia

          “I am very sorry for your leaving conditions”….

          You must mean “living” conditions.

          “that Polish immigration tend to be younger and better educated than the average UKiP supporter. Perhaps that is the reason for the resentment?”

          Can’t think why Poland isn’t enjoying an economic boom then.

          • LimesOut

            Because predatory capital from England robbed Poland blind after 1989. Thats why.

            • Patricia

              Say again ?

              • LimesOut

                Is the truth inconvenient for you and your great leader?

  • Agrippina

    The duty of the govt is to put the needs and interests of their citizens first. This has been forgotten by successive govts for the past 50yrs of uncontrolled immigration, that is why UKIP are a welcome sight in politics.

  • EM

    Uncontrolled immigration was introduced to the UK by the Labour party (Brown/Balls & Co) as a ‘back door’ form of wage restraint aimed at their ‘working man’ supporters. If only they realized it was their own party that did the dirty on them!

    • LimesOut

      UK Border Agency would not be able to control their worn bladder. Just as majority of UKiP activists and their 300 strong, senile electorate. HE, HE!

      Go ahead, take advantage of 12% voters turnout, help yourselves!

      • Penny

        This “He he” stuff is silly, frustrating and likely to be counter-productive. I’m an undecided voter whose been looking at online discussion boards because – as is often the case – you learn more from them than the MSM. Thus far the pro-EU debate seems entirely limited to name-calling. If you’re pro-EU then why not state its case instead of writing “he-he” at every turn?

        • Patricia

          “…This “He he” stuff is silly, frustrating ….”

          Yes, he sounds a bit like the Wizard of Oz.

          • Penny

            Even the Wizard of Oz eventually offered up a coherent plan, Patricia.

            We’re in the run-up to an important election and the level of political discourse seems limited to Farage’s wife, some posters and taunts of “ya-boo-sucks-you’re-a-swivel-eyed-looney-racist”. It’s been that or Clegg banging on about drawbridges being pulled up.

  • Jonathan Burns

    Right wing papers like this and the Daily Mail like to moan about problems, but when given the choice of the UKip who will do something rather than the Tories who will only talk about doing something, you pick the Tories.
    People increasing see you as nothing more than Good Cop to the Guardian’s Bad Cop, two faces of a Lego figure.

    • LimesOut

      What? The only role of UKiP is to anchor Polish immigration as poor and unskilled, thus degrade Polish minority in social and economic pecking order. And Farage also want to collect enormous MEP salaries, made possible by low voters turnout.

      They will never do anything for real. But I sense that you know that very well.
      Have fun posting!

      • Jonathan Burns

        I am someone who has been waiting years for the Tories to grow a backbone and it still hasn’t happened. Promises talking tough and the result SOD ALL!

  • swatnan

    Poland has declared that the Polish migration is officially over. And now that the Polish economy has been developed and there are more jobs in Poland for Polish workers, there’s no need for Poles to seek work elsewhere in Europe. In 5 years time I guess that’ll be the case for Romanian Bulgarian and Albanian workers too.
    The Polish PM also thanked Britain for looking after Polish workers during their stay in Britain.

    • Martin Adamson

      Of course he has! He and all the rest of the Eurocracy understand that they have to calm things down between here and the May elections so they are going to say what ever they need to do that.

    • Agrippina

      Yes and there was the labour MP on the Today prog, banging on about we need to be welcoming to immigrants and not closed off like Albania. How much more welcoming do we have to be, there are millions here, none have been put off.

      As to Albania, along with Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro & Turkey waiting to join the EU, no thanks we have no more room at the inn.

  • Your Correspondent

    Advising someone not to throw the entire contents of their wallet into the Thames is not cultural protectionism, it is plain common sense. As for what all this wonderful free movement of people is doing for Poland, well have read of the papers published in Warsaw. Of course by draining off the top tier of skilled workers from Polish society we are damaging their economy and creating labour shortages. These have to be filled from countries outside the EU like Ukraine. There is simply no coherent argument against the UK having full control over immigration. Remember how Nick Clegg was given the opportunity by both the BBC and LBC to calmly set-out all the advantages of UK membership of the EU. The fact that he couldn’t rather says it all.

  • Bert3000

    The UKIP posters will offend anyone who believes that they, or their children, deserve the opportunities offered by the freedom of movement in Europe. UKIP is the party of people who sit on their backsides and expect it all on a plate. Freedom of movement is of now use to them, because they can’t be bothered to take advantage.

    • Your Correspondent

      I think you are confusing UKIP with the Labour party.

    • Colonel Mustard

      No-one cares what you think about UKIP. Go back to the Guardian or whatever Lieborg fest you slithered here from.

    • cartimandua

      But they wont “benefit” at all. Those most likely to be displaced are not those with lots of other languages.

    • LimesOut

      Yeah, but they deserve all privilege ! Apparently Ed West believes that it is OK to discriminate against people from Soviet occupied countries. He is still fighting the cold war against ‘bad’ East Europe. He believes that the countries which were decimated and destroyed by Germans in WW2 should be still discriminated against in XXI century.

    • you_kid

      Good point – that freedom of movement aspect is much underrated in this discourse. It is of course the case that all those losers (particularly those of an advanced age) who never got/went anywhere in life now envy those who did.

  • willshome

    “Pathological altruism”? You are joking aren’t you? If you haven’t heard the dinner party crowing about cheap Polish builders then I really don’t know where you’re getting your meals. Greed and meanness among the middle classes and a total lack of interest in what they see as the “chavvy” white working class is at the bottom of this. Globalisation is bound to switch work to the cheapest location, whether it’s builders here or more clerical and scientific work to India. Capitalism at work – you asked for it, you got it.

    • sarahsmith232

      Great post, agree completely apart from your assessment of path’ alt’. I had a quick search for what it means, actually, no, he’s spot on. There’s been a recent book, on Amazon’s quick summary they list when altruism becomes destructive, suicide bombers being part of the list, ‘self-righteous political partisanship’ another.
      For a person to become self-righteous about their political beliefs they first of all have to come to believe that the opposers are worthless, yep, the middle-classes have got that part down. Check what the PA means, ’cause it’s not writing about something positive.

  • cargill55

    What a complete and utter load of garbage.
    UKIP is not protectionist.
    UKIP wants to move away from the protectionism of the EU , control Britain’s borders and trade freely with the rest of the world.
    As for cultural protectionism what on earth are you talking about?
    UKIP advocates immigrant assimilation as opposed to the multicultural extremism of liberal left ideologues.
    If you are going to write about UKIP the least you can do is learn your subject so you do not misrepresent.

  • Raw England

    Londoners will definitely be the most upset, because the vast majority of Londoners are foreign.

  • sarahsmith232

    Never heard of pathological altruism, so had a quick search. So, apparently this is a form of altruism that can become perverted and shows itself in the form of ‘self-righteous political partisanship’? Think that prob’ describes just about 98% of the Labour party. Step forward on certain former Home Secretary that justified their open-door on the grounds that ‘we were on the side of the angels’. Blunkett should forced to read that book. Thanks for the heads up Ed West, always interesting your pieces.

    • Martin Adamson

      No need for psychobabble to explain what happened. All that Labour MPs did was to simply sell out the people who had historically trusted them in order to advance their own personal fortune, favour and careers with the Eurocratic elite. It’s a story as old as democratic politics itself.

      • sarahsmith232

        Claptrap. You’ll need to understand their inner motivations to understand what they all are as politicians. When Blunkett believed himself ‘on the side of the angels’ due to their open-door he sees himself as that. He believes they are unquestionably of a higher moral order, when a person truly believes themselves on a divine mission they will be motivated to destroy whatever they see in their way without compunction, because they’ll see the opposers as the morally deficient, cruel, evil, unworthy of consideration block to their moral mission.
        This prob’ accurately describes the basis of their 13yr immigration policy, the idea that they’ve in anyway shifted on that is for the birds.

        • Agrippina

          I think they just wanted the immigrant voters!

          • sarahsmith232

            I know, I know, undoubtedly there was just outright conniving, underhand, shockingly unchallenged, gerrymandering. I would really need someone on the Left to have to explain to me the reason why Shirley Porter spending more on Westminster Tory voting streets is supposed to be a shocking and disgusting e.g of gerrymandering but wiping out, there is nothing left, most parts of the East End have literally nothing left, unreliable white working-class voters isn’t. I’m afraid I would need further explanation from Labour on that, ’cause that doesn’t exactly work for me logically. ****ing sick pieces of ****

            • sarahsmith232

              Ah yes, but then also, an enormous part of it is their deranged saviour complex, most of them have one, certainly Miliband has it in spades. Nobody to live in a society governed by a pack of unconnected to reality and absolutely, truly believing in their mission as divine Messiah put on the earth to save us.

          • sarahsmith232

            This always seems to happen, my reply has disappeared, sometimes they put in an appearance again hours later. But I did reply to that.

      • Donafugata

        Pathological selfishness, perhaps.

  • Donafugata

    Please stop this anxiety about what others might find offensive.
    As with the pathetic attempt to get illegals to go home, this attitude is the reason we have been invaded by the rest of the world, never mind the EU.

    And the meek shall inherit the earth, if that’s all right with everybody else.

    I don’t care if UKIP put Arbeit Macht Frei on their posters as long as they get the country back.

    • Cooper1992

      Unfortunately many on the left wing have been sheltered from real life and reality.

      They go about life with the sole aim of not wanting to ‘offend’ anyone, whilst at the same time looking for anything that could possibly be twisted to be labelled ‘offensive’. Then they whinge and moan that they ‘feel offended’.

      The ‘Post-Cold War Decade’ made way for the ‘New Millennium Decade’, which in turn has made way for the ‘Always Offended Decade’.

      • Colonel Mustard

        “They go about life with the sole aim of not wanting to ‘offend’ anyone”

        Not entirely true. They make an exception for anyone who dissents from their orthodoxy or who espouses conservative views. Then they are quite happy to offend, shout down, intimidate, hurl spiteful invective and above all incite hatred.

        Of course that is facilitated by their other primary attribute. Hypocrisy.

  • sfin

    Another good article…
    …but like most on this subject, is missing a very big point with regards to UKIP.

    The point is not immigration per se, but the fact that, whilst we remain in the EU, there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. A fundamental cornerstone of sovereignty, i.e. control of ones’ borders, has been given away without any consultation with the electorate.

    UKIP are merely using immigration as an obvious and very visible big stick to bang the gong for democratic accountability in general.

    Nobody actually argued, the last time we had a referendum, that the power of the individual’s vote would diminish over time, but that is precisely what has happened. Get that power back. Vote UKIP.

    • telemachus

      The point is not immigration per se, but the fact that, whilst we remain in the EU, there is absolutely nothing we can do about it.
      *
      Farage may know that but it is not what he is saying
      He is appealing directly to the BNP vote

      • sfin

        I’ve said this before in another thread, but it’s worth repeating:

        Your tired old insults of crying ‘racist!’ whenever someone expresses genuine concern that their indigenous culture is being subsumed, or at best diluted, by uncontrolled immigration ‘rubbing the right’s nose in diversity’, has served you well for over fifty years.

        Britain is beginning to wake up to the fact that it has been ruled, for all that time, by a left wing, fascistic, ‘intelligensia’ that actually despises this country and it’s ancient freedoms and tolerance. These ‘liberal elites’ loathe the idea of individual freedom and have always sought to promote collectivism (provided it is they who govern the collective, of course).

        Today we have the clegglet arguing that Nigel Farage is part of the ‘anti EU establishment’, whilst the lib dumps are a ‘insurgent, pro EU party’. Apart from being a toe curlingly, embarrassing lie, it smacks of the desperation of all of you who have hated and sought to destroy this country for so long.

        Your days are numbered.

        • telemachus

          And I have said before
          We are where we and we should integrate not antagonise
          I have also said before
          We need this influx of migrants to expand GDP and underpin the currently unfundable pensions
          *
          Please understand that the end result of Farage is race riots

          • Ricky Strong

            I think an unhealthy obsession with bombing and interfering with Muslim countries is more likely to incite riots… oh wait.

            • telemachus

              That kind of post is just where Farage is headed
              Christian fundamentalists, Muslim fundamentalists, Jewish fundamentalists are all reprehensible
              Wherever they are

              • Colonel Mustard

                In the scheme of things none of them as dangerous to the UK or as reprehensible as Labour fundamentalists like you.

                • telemachus

                  In our hearts we love our country through and through
                  We want it for all not just Osborne’s friends
                  We want to live to an honourable age in prosperity
                  And so we need the input from vigorous young migrants that Farage seeks to deny us

                • Colonel Mustard

                  That’s why you unleashed the biggest wave of immigration this country has ever experienced – “to rub the right’s nose in diversity”. In other words you sowed the seeds of the destruction of the country just to pursue your hatred of the Tories.

                • telemachus

                  Nothing to do with diversity
                  It is to keep folks like you in your accustomed Home Counties comforts until you die
                  You should be thanking us

                • Colonel Mustard

                  “The huge increases in migrants over the last decade were partly due to a politically motivated attempt by ministers to radically change the country and “rub the Right’s nose in diversity”, according to Andrew Neather, a former adviser to Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett. He said Labour’s relaxation of controls was a deliberate plan to “open up the UK to mass migration” but that ministers were nervous and reluctant to discuss such a move publicly for fear it would alienate its “core working class vote”. As a result, the public argument for immigration concentrated instead on the economic benefits and need for more migrants. He wrote: “Earlier drafts I saw also included a driving political purpose: that mass immigration was the way that the Government was going to make the UK truly multicultural. “I remember coming away from some discussions with the clear sense that the policy was intended – even if this wasn’t its main purpose – to rub the Right’s nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date.” The “deliberate policy”, from late 2000 until “at least February last year”, when the new points based system was introduced, was to open up the UK to mass migration, he said.”

                  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6418456/Labour-wanted-mass-immigration-to-make-UK-more-multicultural-says-former-adviser.html

                  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/6486629/Government-maladroit-on-immigration-says-Home-Secretary.html

                  And you are still peddling those lies about the economic benefits. In my humble opinion we should not be thanking you but waging war against you.

                • telemachus

                  I think this identifies you as an “excitable” right wing blogger
                  *
                  Neather, now comment editor of the London Evening Standard, said an article he wrote in the aftermath of the television appearance of the BNP leader, Nick Griffin, had been twisted out of all recognition.

                  “There was no plot,” said Neather. He pinpointed a shift in immigration policy in 2001, when he wrote a speech for Roche outlining changes to make it easier for skilled workers to come to the UK. The speech followed a sensitive report on migration from the Downing Street performance and innovation unit.

                  “Multiculturalism was not the primary point of the report or the speech. The main goal was to allow in more migrant workers at a point when – hard as it is to imagine now – the booming economy was running up against skills shortages,” Neather wrote in the Standard.

                  “Somehow this has become distorted by excitable rightwing newspaper columnists into being a ‘plot’ to make Britain multicultural. There was no plot. I’ve worked closely with Ms Roche and Jack Straw and they are both decent, honourable people who I respect … What’s more both were robust on immigration when they needed to be. Straw had driven through a tough Immigration and Asylum Act in 1999 and Roche had braved particularly cruel flak from the left over asylum seekers.”

                • Colonel Mustard

                  I am not a “blogger” but merely a commentator. Neather’s retraction followed the (all too brief) outcry about what had happened and merely shows the Labour’ party’s propensity for closing ranks and changing the story.

                  Neather said this, not me:-

                  “I remember coming away from some discussions with the clear sense that the policy was intended – even if this wasn’t its main purpose – to rub the Right’s nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date.”

                  What he actually said was just quoted not “twisted out of all recognition” so his later assertions are incredible.

                  There is nothing “excitable” about being concerned for one’s country’s future and appalled at the destructiveness, deceit and malevolence of a party that is supposed to stand honestly for the British working class.

                • andyrwebman

                  So – in order to fill “skills shortages” we import huge numbers of uneducated people from the third world?

                  Doesn’t add up to me.

                • Conway

                  UKIP does not seek to deny anybody vigorous young migrants, only to control the flow thereof and restrict them to people we actually need.

                • telemachus

                  That is not what your leader is saying and implying
                  Pure Powellism
                  Stop em coming and send em back
                  Griffinism

                • lily of the valley

                  So we have Griffinism and Powellism now, do we? That is really elevating those two. Still I haven’t seen you answer the question as to what happens when all the immigrants get old – who will look after them if not more immigrants?

                • andyrwebman

                  Are our own natives not vigorous? Millions of unemployed, many of them graduates.

                  We used to have the best educations system in the world – and one which cost much less to run than the modern one. Left wing meddling has left us with a hugely more expensive system that – according to you – can’t produce the “vigorous young people” that are needed.

                  What a way to wreck a country. Rot it from within, make it inefficient – then import millions into a crowded land to try and make up for it.

              • disqus_KdiRmsUO4U

                Have you not noticed that most Islamic fundamentalists are immigrants of one generation or another.

          • Raddiy

            ” We need this influx of migrants to expand GDP”

            NO we don’t!!

            Not if expanding GDP by immigration results in skilled manual workers seeing their hourly rate drop from £10 an hour to barely minimum wage due to massive oversupply of labour, and our communities changed beyond recognition.

            What sort of socialist supports a bizarre position whose only purpose is to drive down wages and consign large sections of our communities economically back to the 80’s.

            For the life of me, I cannot understand the rationale of your posturing considering your political beliefs. I just think you are a total bl**dy nutcase, who seemingly inhabits a world divorced from reality.

            • LimesOut

              You are living of the work and smarts of Polish people. If they were not here, your country would not function. Wake up!

              • Patricia

                “You are living of the work and smarts of Polish people. If they were not here, your country would not function. Wake up!”

                Eh ?

                And the name “LimesOut” meaning -British ?

            • telemachus

              The age demographic is such that our home grown spawned cannot support our health, social and pension needs as one third of the population threaten to be centenarians
              None of us may like it but only those countries that can attract vigorous young migrants will maintain a decent living standard until we die

              • Wessex Man

                Liar liar pats on fire!

              • Baron

                A fallacious argument that, telemachus, and short-sighted into the bargain.

                Those of the immigrants who have no intention staying, that’s the vast majority of them, only come because they get here for their labour more than in their home country, or anywhere else. They do not come to support our health, pension needs, that thought never crosses their mind. When someone else, somewhere else, (say) their mother country, offers the same or more they will leave. You can bet on it. What do you propose we do then ‘to support our health, pensions …ha?

                • telemachus

                  They will keep coming and only a proportion go back

                • disqus_KdiRmsUO4U

                  If the jobs really do exist then UK education and welfare MUST be changed.

                  Both appear to have been debauched by non judgemental ‘progressive’ liberal twerps.

                • andyrwebman

                  Have you not realised that sheer numbers of people is not the way to generate wealth? We need skilled people, but large numbers of unskilled people are useless.

                  We don’t have the jobs for them – and can’t, because the third world will undercut us.

                  We need intelligent people to create high tech industry – which is an argument for good schooling in the UK and selective skilled immigration.

                  Allowing huge numbers of people in will create dead weight – either amongst immigrants or existing unskilled workers. Also it pushes up the cost of rent, and therefore more housing benefit will be needed

                  Thus the welfare burden will be higher- both through more people, and a higher cost per person.

                  A more imaginitive way of boosting earnings is needed, one that can see the future, instead of “make more money with more people” – the height of crudeness.

              • freethinker14

                That’s an argument for targeted skilled migration, not open border mass migration.

              • lily of the valley

                What happens when the immigrants grow old? You are an idiot. We have 65+million in the country and neither the space nor the work to keep them all happy.

            • andyrwebman

              It’s naiive economics.

              Like “Duh – more people gives us more GDP so more people must be good, innit?”

              It neglects completely the fact that our industry does not benefit from unskilled workers any more – because we are a minimum wage economy, and outsourcing to the third world has proved more profitable.

              The only way we can generate wealth is to have industries with highly skilled people, ones that use technology to be competitive – 3D printing, robotic factories, etc.

              These can generate excportable wealth but don;t employ many people.Huge numbers of people just aren’t beneficial to the economy any more.

              To have a minimum wage economy with an oversupply of underskilled workers in a crowded island is an insane combination.

              • Des Demona

                Or perhaps it is having a minimum wage economy that is insane?

            • Kennybhoy

              “What sort of socialist supports…”

              So you are granting that restricting freedom of movement, restricting who an employer can hire, and de facto control of incomes are all socialist measures…?

          • Wessex Man

            are you going to come clean and admit that you were never a member of Ukip and certainly never stood as a candidate for them, you are liar and therefore none of your comments are valid!

            • telemachus

              Wessex
              You really are a comical man
              You pick a moniker to try to make us hark back to our Anglo Saxon antecedents
              Well remember they were all migrants from the EU who did not speak our language and were prone to violent outbursts with their sharp swords
              Remember also that we tamed and integrated them

              • Wessex Man

                tele you silly old fool much in the mode of a benny with a pipe more likely stuck in you gob, I chose my moniker because I was born and bred in that part of the country once known as Wessex, on a clear day I can see the Top of Mamlesbury Abbey, resting place of the father of England, the man who united country, this England.

                You on the other hand are a liar and boy what a liar.

                • telemachus

                  But son
                  You have no comment on the Anglo Saxon migrants that we integrated to our benefit

                • Alexsandr

                  immigration is a matter of degree. a few and they assimilate. a lot and they make ghettoes and cause sectarian strife.

                • telemachus

                  It entirely depends if you let them
                  We need to put positive effort into the process of integration instead of wringing our hands and letting racists like Farage hold sway

                • andyrwebman

                  We are descended from the Anglo Saxons – by definition, by being alive we are the winners.

                  But those in the native Celtic culture that was subsumed by Anglo Saxons would not have felt quite so happy.

                  Neither would the Aboriginal peoples of Australia, or the native American indians.

                  On the other hand, the Protestant Huegenot refugees who came from France in the 17th and 18 centuries are now fully integrated into the country.

                  The lesson is that Immigration can be a benefit, but it’s not universally so. Especially when you consdier that during the 19th centruy and part of the 20th Britain considered itself overcrowded and pursued a policy of Emigration.

                • telemachus

                  PS
                  You would do well spending your time rebuilding your fallen down Abbey or helping out the poor folk devastated by the floods last year that frittering time at this game

                • Colonel Mustard

                  You really are quite a piece of work. I hope your karma catches up with you real soon.

              • Colonel Mustard

                Who is this ‘we’? You mean the leftist scum who have spent barely a hundred years re-defining our history through lies and reducing our country to tears?

                • telemachus

                  My maternal grandmother is pure Welsh Celt

                • telemachus

                  We all have diverse origins in our makeup
                  Differences are apparent for but a flash of time in the grand scheme of things

                • Colonel Mustard

                  We are the English. Our national identity is 1,087 years old and is ours to hold as a birthright not for your Labour party to re-define for the purpose of their impositions on us without our consent.

                • dmitri the impostor

                  Then your grandmother can scarcely be ‘pure Welsh Celt’ can she, you moron?

                  Your stock in trade is not intelligent comment, it is micturition. Look it up.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Then if what you say is true England should be Wales and not England . . .

          • Conway

            Race riots are more likely to occur because of the policy of importing masses of people with incompatible beliefs without planning for the infrastructure to support the influx and at the same time shutting down all debate by screaming ‘racist!’ and ‘bigot!’, rather than by Farage opening up the debate.

            • telemachus

              But he is not opening a debate
              He is pursuing pure incitement
              I noted he had a black shirt under his great coat this afternoon

          • disqus_KdiRmsUO4U

            How the UK went from a nation developing true GDP increasing things like jet engines steam engines radar etc etc etc to needing ‘skilled’ immigrants from Poland and Romania is a complete mystery to me.

            Our public schools churn out lots of project (in the broadest sense of the word) managers but few skilled genuine GDP increasing.engineers.
            I think GDP is NFG

            • andyrwebman

              The left reformed education to make it more expensive, less efficient, and massively less pleasant for teachers to work in.

              Another way in which they’ve engineered this country’s downfall.

          • andyrwebman

            Suppose GDP is expanded by the influx of migrants. It doesn’t follow that the average British citizen will benefit. GDP is, after all, a measure of work done, not wealth gained.

            If the price of housing and rent goes up – as it inevitably does when there is increasing shortage, and is certainly doing now – then someone whose wage remains relatively static will feel poorer. Someone who is unemployed will feel even worse, as they will be less able to get a job.

            I have long argued agains this idea of “we need more people to generate GDP to fund our pensions”. It assumes – wrongly – that the only way to boost GDP is to have more people.

            Yet consider the nature of the British economy. We are a minimum wage economy, so are uncompetitive for industries which can outsource to the third world. Only skilled industries remain in the developed world – and these employ vastly fewer people.

            America is starting to win back some of its trade from the far east – but it is doing it with cutting edge high tech, eg. 3D printing. This makes cheap production possible and wins back trade, but unfortunately doesn’t employ many people.

            In Britain we have over 3 million unemployed with few job prospects – much of it amongst the young. I’d say that there would have to be a huge change in our position for us to be faced with a shortage of workers, even if we’re not generating the GDP to fund our pensions.

            Sadly, people are becoming increasingly less useful from an economic point of view, and this is made doubly unpleasant by the shortage of land and housing in this country.

            So, while we might need to boost our revenues, it is an hugely naiive suggestion to suggest that a huge influx of people would be beneficial. It’s quality we need, not quantity.

          • freethinker14

            Rubbish. The end result of the EU will be violent. You have this backwards.

          • sfin

            You still don’t get it do you? You and I can debate the subject of immigration until the cows come home and it won’t make the slightest difference to the policy applied to this country.

            It has been taken out of our hands.

            As things stand, the policy is in your favour as a (presumably) pro mass immigration voter. If that policy changed to zero immigration – there would be nothing you could do about it!

            As an aside, and dealing with facts rather than conjecture, we have already had race riots in this country – Toxteth, Brixton etc, including the beheading of a police officer who was carrying out his duties in policing, said riots, in Tottenham. All of these were a direct ‘rivers of blood’ consequence of the left’s policy of trying to achieve ‘diversity’ and ‘multiculturalism’ through uncontrolled immigration.

        • David A

          ” their indigenous culture is being subsumed, or at best diluted” :)))) Yeah dude say that to THE BEATLES. Or just to John Lennon. Or you’d better grow up and live in the present.
          Imagine there’s no countries
          It isn’t hard to do
          Nothing to kill or die for
          And no religion too
          Imagine all the people
          Living life in peace…

      • saffrin

        Nigel Farage is pointing out to the working class their jobs aren’t save while we stay part of the European Union.
        I realised that over a decade ago and that is why I, as a working class worker unit have switched my vote from Liebour to UKIP.

      • Penny

        I don’t think this “appeal to the BNP vote” or the accusations of racism really stack up, telemachus.

        Farage isn’t scraping the barrel in terms of projected votes but is either in line with or above the three main parties. This suggests that he is taking votes from LibLabCon voters. So if you want to accuse UKIP of racism you would also have to agree that those voting for him in May have, at some stage, voted for LibLabCon – thus, LibLabCon have had racists voters. Worse, really, is that these three parties, despite their claims of “loonies, fruitcakes and closet racists” are clearly trying to win these voters back.

        • telemachus

          It is pure 1964 Smethwick

          • Penny

            No it isn’t. Not least because the immigration in question is related to Europe.

            Anyhow, “Smethwick” – pure or otherwise – doesn’t answer the two points I made. This cannot be the BNP vote – the percentages are too high and the vote is distributed across those who have previously voted LibLabCon. So I say again: the three main parties are the source of the UKIP vote. If this is a protest or single issue vote (and we only have to wait a year to find out) then these voters – whom you are labelling BNP-types – will sink back into LibLabCon at the GE. I hope you’ll be as diligent in your condemnation then as you are at present.

      • freethinker14

        So Love of country = Racism in your eyes does it?

    • LimesOut

      You have 6 million illegal immigrants you can do nothing about. Border Agency would not be able to control their on bladder, let alone immigration.

  • fathomwest

    Does it matter who the poster upsets IF the message is correct?
    I notice the Labour lot are back with their old slur. When everything else fails label them R A C I S T S! I ask you. These people are both ridiculous and anti the indigenous population.
    Why Coffee House has to resort to this kind of juvenile and incorrect attempt at political point scoring is beyond me.
    What the LIBLABCON Alliance assisted by their friends in the MSM just cannot understand is that posters like these actually resonate with people because they have to live amongst what is portrayed.
    Grow up Coffee House. Yes criticise but, for goodness sake, adopt adult and correct criticisms.

    • Julian Kavanagh

      Er…why don’t you read the article rather than just the headline?

      Or were you so outraged by the headline that you just had to share your incoherent, frothing ramblings with the rest of us?

      • wayne

        Seems to me his comment is relevant, try reading it again. There is no indication that he hasn’t read the article. He’s just adding another point that is very relevant

        • Julian Kavanagh

          No he isn’t. He’s reading the headline and assuming it’s an attack on UKIP when it isn’t at all.

          • fathomwest

            How kind of you, Kavanagh, for being so superior that having made your rash and incorrect assumption, that I am a supporter of UKIP. When I was responding to what I believe the article to be, and that is yet another attempt to denigrate the indigenous people of this country. WAYNE gave you an opportunity to reconsider your stupid comment but you choose to think you know what people are thinking. You are the buffoon and I note that my comment, thus far, is supported by thirty four considerate people. Are they all Ukip supporters? you silly and ridiculous man.

    • James Allen

      Eh? The post is midly supportive of UKIP’s immigration policy, not anti-

    • Cooper1992

      *Sigh* You haven’t read the article have you?

    • I like Comb-over

      like who? This Pakistani guy? Since when he is indigenous? But he is asking for the right kind of immigration, presumably relatives from his village would satisfy his definition of ‘right’?

    • LimesOut

      Nobody labelled him racist on this occasion. Farage came out fighting off imaginary criticism even before anyone saw any poster of his. It was the campaign tactics, to get as much media attention and publicity as possible. Media are in cahoots, thats for sure. Each outlet reprinted his lowbrow posters at least 7 times since yesterday!

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