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Evangelically wishy-washy

18 April 2014

5:31 PM

18 April 2014

5:31 PM

David Cameron has said Christians should be more evangelical “about a faith that compels us to get out there and make a difference to people’s lives”. In an article for The Church Times he said he wanted to infuse politics with Christian values such as responsibility, hard work, charity, compassion, humility and love.

In recent years politicians have often been shy about talking about religion, reluctant perhaps to invoke the authority of God to score a political point. William Ewart Gladstone had no such anxiety, saying in 1832: “Restrict the sphere of politics to earth, and it becomes a secondary science”. In 1880, when he was campaigning for Home Rule in Ireland, he confided to his diary that “The Almighty has employed me for His purposes in a manner larger and more special than before.” Queen Victoria thought he had a mad glint in his eye, but his zeal did mean he never stood accused of political posturing. The Spectator quoted him admiringly in 1868:

“Mr. Gladstone said one thing in his speech on Monday night which should rejoice the hearts of all his political followers, whatever their faith. “In one sense,” he said, “he was not a friend of Protestantism, for there was a great deal of it circulating in this country that he was not, and never would be, a friend of. He trusted and believed that they had a unity of belief in the blessed person of our Redeemer and of humble trust in Him; but he contended that they were bound to deal equal and absolute justice, irrespective of any question of religious persuasion; and as to his own persuasion, that of the old-established Church of England, he would at once renounce it, if its interests required him to set aside the principles of common right as between man and man.” Mr. Gladstone has sometimes been accused of being more of an ecclesiastic than a statesman,—that is, of having a faith whose roots do not strike deeper than the ecclesiastical organization to which he belongs. We hope this sentence will confute that calumny, and show him for what he is, a man with a faith in Christ that is far deeper than his faith in any of the organizations for preaching the Gospel of Christ.”

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David Cameron chose his words carefully, doing his best to separate evangelism from a political crusade. It’s hard to hit the right note, as Margaret Thatcher found after quoting St Francis of Assisi (‘where there is discord, let me bring harmony’) outside Number 10. Germaine Greer was very indignant.

“If Mrs Thatcher had not simply found St Francis in her Dictionary of Quotations she would know that he was a ne-er-do-well, a lay about, a class traitor. He gave up the life of a prosperous merchant for the love of Lady Poverty. He dressed in the single garment of the peasant with no hose to his legs and begged for a living, and made of that a rule of life.

St Francis, who may be allowed to have been more intimate with God than Margaret Thatcher, certainly did not think that the free enterprise system was the best way to serve Him.”

Thatcher’s “insistence that her ideology was rooted in biblical morality goes a long way to explain the anger she aroused,” Damian Thompson noted in 1992 in an article puzzling over the religious beliefs of John Major and the other party leaders. Major’s friends and family didn’t seem to really know if he believed in God and when asked about faith on Radio 4, Major just started talking about ‘instincts and values’. Paddy Ashdown got into trouble with his Christian supporters by using New Age jargon, while Neil Kinnock spoke apologetically about his agnosticism.

“People can identify with a politician who talks regretfully about his personal failure to make a ‘leap of faith’. In any case, Kinnock is too shrewd an operator to leave it at that. His values, he says, have been strongly influenced by the passage in St Matthew’s Gospel in which Christ tells his disciples: I was hungry and you fed me, I was naked and you clothed me….‘As an article of social faith,’ concluded Kinnock, ‘as an objective for the conduct of life, I think it is very difficult to better that.’”

Kinnock managed a bit of selective Christianity rather neatly by not signing up to it in the first place. William Hague got himself into trouble by embracing it then picking and choosing his doctrines. In an article entitled ‘God, but not forgotten’, Digby Anderson took Hague to task over a lecture he delivered in 1998.

 “He makes it very clear that he is in favour of Christianity, at least his curious version of it. It’s a jolly good thing. Conservatives, he explains, ‘have always drawn on Judaeo-Christian ideas’. He is most appreciative of Christians’ past work for orphans, slaves and more recently drug addicts. And he knows of fine work being done offering people ‘peace’. He is not the only one to talk of Christianity like this today. He wants the charitable works and moral tradition it is alleged to produce, but shows not the slightest interest in the thing itself, the production process and the Chief Executive whose idea it all was. Rephrase that: he wants selected bits of its moral tradition. Mr Hague gives no indication that he knows what the Church is or what Bible teaching is. Even more alarming in a professed Conservative, he seems unaware of what authority and tradition are. Clearly they take second place to what people currently believe…It seems that the heir of the Conservative tradition, he who talks so much about Burke, is into pick ‘n’ mix morality.”

This Easter, Cameron has taken the Kinnock route, admitting in his Church Times article that he’s a bit vague on the more difficult parts of faith; “Faith is neither necessary nor sufficient for morality….but faith can be a guide or a helpful prod in the right direction – and, whether inspired by faith or not, that direction or moral code matters.” Perhaps this is the magic formula: evangelism with one hand, and a-religious platitude with the other.

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Show comments
  • ilpugliese

    What is peculiarly Christian about responsibility, hard work, charity, compassion, humility and love?

  • glurk

    Cant see why responsibility, hard work, charity, compassion, humility and love should be thought to be values only held by religious people.

  • Michael H Kenyon

    Humbug. Politicians wrapping themselves in religion is cynical even by their low standards.

  • jesseventura2

    Let us remember Tony the phony Blair removed the rest room/toilet cops and not very likely public school boys like Cameron and Clegg will replace them?
    Carry on cottaging and dogging?

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Face it, any criticism of Islam can, with a few modification, be applied to Christianity, especially Catholicism. Because all religions are equally illogical, their only purpose being to provide an emotional crutch for sorry-assed, weak-minded losers. And obviously the empowerment and enrichment of clergy. So get used to ridicule, derision and abuse you dog-collar vampires.
    Easter`s off, they`ve found the body.
    Jack, Japan Alps

    • Bonkim

      Utter rubbish Jack – my God is better than yours any day.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    For a moment there I thought I`d strayed onto the “Catholic” Daily Telegraph. But quickly realised that I`m still banned on the NeoCon Telegraph. Was it something I said? Let me back, I promise I`ll be bad.
    Jack, Japan Alps

  • http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Main_Page kefa

    Thus says The Lord your God, The God of Israel: My anger is kindled against you! For you have not harkened to My voice, and to My words you have not listened; neither do you heed the words given to the prophets of old, nor of this day, even to the forsaking of The One you call Christ, though you seek to call yourselves by His name… Shall I reward you for your disobedience, simply because you are called Christian?!
    My children, I have sent to you many in My own name, putting MY words in their mouths; and behold, I am sending 144,000 more, the witnesses. Yet you scoff and reject them, yea you persecute them on account of their words. Therefore, O disobedient generation who do call of themselves Christian, you are given up to refinement and shall pass through the fire, even the fires of The Last Week; you shall not be gathered… There shall be great wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    And so it will come to pass: Those who would be first shall be last, and those who were accounted as last shall be first. For every man, who thinks himself righteous, shall be left. For there are none righteous! No, not one!… Not one person or church… All is vanity and pride, complete vexation of spirit.

    For I have already told you that I require of you humility,
    A complete forsaking of your wills, walking in faith,
    Abiding wholly in the doctrine of Christ…

    Yet all you men in the churches abide in your own doctrine,
    Walking always in religion, and not in faith…

    For not one of you obeys God, in truth.

    I tell you, all religions shall fail! Not one shall persist! For The Salvation of God is nowhere to be found in the religions of men, nor shall one find Me in any denomination or church. Thus all your attempts to hold onto your self-righteousness are in vain, for every bitter and perverse doctrine of men shall burn in that day.
    My children, Christ’s church dwells within Him, and He dwells in the hearts of men. This is where My Son has rebuilt the temple, which has fallen down. Yet you seek outwardly in the world for fulfillment, mixing the things of the world with the things of God, polluting pure worship with the abominations of the pagan and the heathen… Desecrating My name and My glory as you continue segregating My Word, in an effort to maintain your own way.
    Therefore, be separate! Says The Lord of Hosts, your Redeemer. Come out from among them, and follow Me! My servants, take nothing with you, for I abide not in any church made with human hands… Why do you not understand My speech?! For I tell you the truth: Those who love anyone or anything in this world, more than Me, are not worthy of Me; and to be a friend of this world is enmity with God, as it is written… Stop stifling the Spirit!

    Know you not, that to celebrate and worship Me,
    In any way contrary to the Scriptures, is a desecration of My name?!
    And to mix anything I have given you, with the things of satan, is an abomination?!…

    My children, come out of her! The harlot has deceived you!…

    And you willingly commit adultery with her, reveling in all her fornications.

    You are fallen and given up to judgment, and shall endure desolations on every side! For I shall indeed correct and discipline even all those I love, with a strong rebuke and an outstretched arm. For you have not given heed to The Father’s commands, nor do you heed My correction. Thus I must bring My hand against you, that you may be humbled, that you may be broken atop this Stone, for by no other means shall you enter into My rest… Beloved, if I do not leave you to refinement, assuredly I say to you, you shall never enter in.
    For this is a very stiff-necked generation, a very hard-hearted people. And though these called Christian do seek to honor Me with their lips, their hearts remain far from Me. Therefore, I ask you, who do you serve?… The world, and all its adulteries against God? Or God, in spirit and in Truth, apart from this world? For as it is written: The day is coming, and is already here, when The Father shall receive the worship He really wants. For only by the power of the Holy Spirit shall one worship God as He really is… Thus the first harvest shall indeed be lowly, of the lowly; and the second plenteous, of the refined and penitent.

    Repent, therefore, and humble yourselves,
    That you might escape all these things
    Which must shortly come to pass…

    Repent, I say! Repent, in truth!…

    And now take up your cross and follow Me!

    And if you repent, yet return to those things of which you have repented, endeavoring not to change, has not your repentance become unrepentance? My children, if you come before Me repenting of your transgressions, in where you have not kept The Moral Law of The Father, and then continue in your transgression, forsaking The Law, have you not committed a greater evil? For you have made Me the author of sin, saying, “We are in Christ. We are free from The Law”… Desecration!
    Little children, hear Me: You are free from the curse of The Law, for you are indeed saved by grace and now live because of Me. Behold, even My own Spirit shall enable you to keep The Law. And though you are now free from the curse of The Law, which is death, you are by no means free to break The Law. Have I not said, “You are forgiven; now go and sin no more”? Therefore if you continue to transgress, and seek not to change your ways, you remain in unforgiveness, having lied to The Father in My name. Neither are you born again of the Spirit, for all those who truly repent receive of My Spirit, and strive also to walk in My ways… This is true repentance.
    For I walked in perfect obedience to The Father, I kept The Commandments, every one, and by My example were they fulfilled. Therefore, I ask you, if one forsakes The Law, how then shall he fulfill it? And if one forgets the Sabbath, how then shall he remember it, to keep it holy? Or have you forgotten My words also, where I said, “Do not think that I came to destroy The Law or the prophets… I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill.”

    I do not say then, that you shall walk perfectly, for I know you are but flesh…

    Rather that you should sincerely strive to walk in uprightness,
    A completion of your faith through obedience,
    Having received of the free gift…

    Even of the new heart, which I have given you.

    And by this shall you be judged, for I search the hearts and minds,
    And I know if you have been fully converted in your heart,
    Even unto your innermost parts…

    One who seeks to please The Father by all their doings…

    One who truly loves Me.

    My children, I shall speak plainly so you may be saved: Love one another. Feed the poor in spirit and in body. Visit the widows in their affliction. Uphold the fatherless. Speak to those in prison. Help the sick. Forsake these modern holidays; embrace God’s Holy Days, as I am their fulfillment and as they are written… Get understanding, get wisdom… And remember the Sabbath Day, yes the seventh day, to keep it holy.
    Obey all The Father’s Commandments, for they are holy, just and good… By My own Spirit shall you keep them, thereby revealing that you have truly received. And listen to those I send; you shall know them by their fruits and by their sword. For they come not to make peace but war in My members, even a great division, a sifting of the wheat for the harvest.

    My children, you grow too close to the tares… You are entangled! Uproot yourselves therefore, and be planted in the good ground, where the latter rains are abundant and all crops are harvested in their due season. Hurry now and regain the line, put your feet back on the path of righteousness, for My way is narrow… Go your own way, however, and you shall not be gathered.
    Therefore walk in Me, for I am The Only Path of Salvation, The Only Way to follow, and be truly set free! For only in The Truth Absolute shall one find respite and be gathered up to Heaven, even for one week and in the Day… My children, God does not change; His Word abides forever.

    For I am The Lord…

    And I shall have mercy upon those whom I shall have mercy;
    And I shall punish those whom I shall punish…

    Yet call on the name of The Lord, in these final hours of darkness,
    And you shall be saved…

    Behold, you shall see the angels of Heaven
    Ascending and descending upon The Son of Man.

    I am The Lord…

    HEAR ME!

    http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Refinement_and_The_Day_of_The_Lord

    • Bonkim

      Keep it short Lord – man’s ability to grasp such weighty thought is limiteed to seconds.

  • paulus

    On this most Holy of times, yous start arguing about stupid things. Is there no hope for this world.

    • http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Main_Page kefa

      Heed the warning from God…
      Thus says The Lord your God, The God of Israel:
      “I tell you, all religions shall fail! Not one shall persist! For The Salvation of God is nowhere to be found in the religions of men, nor shall one find Me in any denomination or church. Thus all your attempts to hold onto your self-righteousness are in vain, for every bitter and perverse doctrine of men shall burn in that day.
      My children, Christ’s church dwells within Him, and He dwells in the hearts of men. This is where My Son has rebuilt the temple, which has fallen down. Yet you seek outwardly in the world for fulfillment, mixing the things of the world with the things of God, polluting pure worship with the abominations of the pagan and the heathen… Desecrating My name and My glory as you continue segregating My Word, in an effort to maintain your own way.
      Therefore, be separate! Says The Lord of Hosts, your Redeemer. Come out from among them, and follow Me! My servants, take nothing with you, for I abide not in any church made with human hands… Why do you not understand My speech?! For I tell you the truth: Those who love anyone or anything in this world, more than Me, are not worthy of Me; and to be a friend of this world is enmity with God, as it is written… Stop stifling the Spirit!

      Know you not, that to celebrate and worship Me,
      In any way contrary to the Scriptures, is a desecration of My name?!
      And to mix anything I have given you, with the things of satan, is an abomination?!…

      My children, come out of her! The harlot has deceived you!…

      And you willingly commit adultery with her, reveling in all her fornications.”

      Excerpt from: http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Refinement_and_The_Day_of_The_Lord

      • Wessex Man

        get a life!

        • http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Main_Page kefa

          Thus says The Lord: …
          “There is no escape from His glory! For apart from His glory is only darkness and death; and without Him all life ceases, for He causes all things to be. The vastness of His being is not hidden; it shines forth, from the infinitely small to the infinitely large… Behold, God has no end! He IS The Creator! And I am your Carpenter, The image of The Invisible God, The Firstborn over all creation!
          By Me were all things created, both visible and invisible, in Heaven and on Earth; whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things that are and were created were created through Me and for Me. For I am before all things, and in Me all things consist. Therefore, take your mind and fill it with wonder and awe; take your instruments and seek out the answer, probe the earth and the heavens, and there you will find Me… For God is The Origin of Life! He alone is God, Creator of all things, known and unknown! And I am The Answer you seek, The very Meaning of Life!… The Only Begotten of The Father, God in the flesh, Immanu El.
          For all things are made, live, and come to their fulfillment, in Me… Yes, I am The Meaning of Life! I am Jesus and Christ, Lord and Savior, Yeshua The Messiah! YahuShua HaMashiach is My name, and you are in life because of Me! For I am He through whom you were made.”

          Excerpt from: http://www.trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=For_God%E2%80%99s_Glory%2C_All_Things_That_Are_and_Were_Created_Were_Created_by_His_Knowledge…_Designed_in_Perfect_Intelligence

  • http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Main_Page kefa

    Thus
    says The Lord YahuShua: Those who knowingly celebrate
    Easter, and its deplorable traditions, hate My resurrection.

    Thus says The One who sees, The One who
    knows: Join not in the error
    of the people, have no part in their sin… I am The Lord.

    For those who refuse My correction are foolish,
    and those who refuse to repent will walk through very dry places. For the pride
    of men is a heavy stone, which increases in weight each day it remains
    unbroken.

    Join not in the error of the people…

    Have no part in their sin…

    Says The Lord.

    http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Join_Not_in_the_Error_of_the_People

    _____________________

    “Yet in the pagan traditions of Easter, take no part; honor
    not the commandments of men[1]. For as
    I have commanded you regarding the December holiday, do likewise unto this
    holiday called Easter, for they are the same in My eyes.”

    Excerpt from: http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Regarding_the_Celebration_of_Easter

    _____________________

    “Come out from among them and touch not the unclean thing!… To replace Christ, with false good,
    is to partake in that which is called antichrist; and to honor The Christ with
    pagan traditions is a great desecration of His name!”

    Excerpt from: http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Worship_with_Gratitude_His_Birth%2C_and_Give_Thanks_for_His_Death_and_Resurrection

    _____________________

    “Know you not, that to celebrate and worship Me,

    In any way contrary to the Scriptures, is a
    desecration of My name?!

    And to mix anything I have given you, with the
    things of satan, is an abomination?!…

    My children, come out of her! The harlot has
    deceived you!…

    And you willingly commit adultery with her,
    reveling in all her fornications.”

    Excerpt from: http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Refinement_and_The_Day_of_The_Lord

    • manonthebus

      There should be two ‘l’s in revelling.

    • Wessex Man

      You really really do need to get a life!

    • Bonkim

      Have to agree with you there. Christmas and easter are Pagan as the established Churches – successors to the Roman Empire.

  • Mrs.JosephineHyde-Hartley

    There are truly only three Christian values as far as I’m concerned – faith, hope and charity ( ie caritas) – anything worth doing or having or being comes from these. And the greatest of these is charity ( but not the insidiously over-bearing and over-reaching modern, corporate type charity model).

    Blessed are the poor in spirit – for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven ( ie unity )

  • Smithersjones2013

    Sanctimonious hypocrisy aside (a common trait of the greater spotted upper class urban liberal elitist) If Cameron is doing God then he must be desperate. In many ways it suggest that Cameron realises he has lost the politics and now is flailing around looking for a schtick (in this case returning to his risible morality meme) to peddle.

  • crudcrud1

    I always thought the just shall live by faith and that we are saved by grace through faith and not works lest anyone should boast. What is not to understand?

    • Kaine

      Faith without works is dead.

      • Tom Tom

        Not clear if you are Protestant

        • Kaine

          Even if you are saved by grace, anyone thus saved should, by the nature of that salvation, act in a Christ-like manner in the world.

          It’s not that the works save you, it’s that being saved you’ll do the works.

  • @PhilKean1

    .
    This has everything. Hypocrisy? Opportunism? Blasphemy? Short-sightedness?

    It seems that religion is ok, as long as it is relates to the scriptures as contained in the Gospel according to St Gay of the Liberal-left.

    A lot of British people have abandoned the church because they feel they should take responsibility for disarming those who’d seek to make their particular faith Britain’s pre-eminent religion.

    So it comes as a great disappointment that the most short-sighted PM in living memory has opened the way for religious competition and equality in British politics.
    .

    • Kitty MLB

      Phil, you know that Christianity is being discriminated against in this
      so could country of that/ our religion. Islam seems to want dominance in this country, whereas Sikhs and Hindus have no issue.
      So regardless of views on Cameron or the fact he is doing the speech, we must speak up for Christianity . Yes less people attend church then they used to, but that’s the age we now live, but ask them and most will say they still have faith in God. And It was Blair who opened the gates.And the current
      Labour Party who now think of Muslim people as their new voters, as they
      have abandoned their core voter.

      • @PhilKean1

        Hi. I don’t think you quite understood what I was trying to say.

        There can’t be a race if there is only one competitor. Meaning that, be as it may that British people would never obsess about religion and cause misery and hardship in its name, there are people who the Liberal-left have allowed into Britain who very much would.

        Therefore it has fallen to all intelligent people of faith and spirituality to take it upon themselves to abandon open religious worship in an effort to stop the problems before they start.

        Their creed is that religion should play no part in British politics and in daily life, because it is the only way we stand a chance of preventing weak, appeasing, Liberal-left politicians granting ever-more concessions to the foreign religions that threaten the British way of life.
        .

        • Kitty MLB

          Thank You Phil, I didn’t quire get what you meant, I am
          clearly a little slow today. And indeed these Lefties have allowed other religions to dictate to us, we must always
          worry about offending them regardless of how much some offend us. And indeed our traditions and values now seem second place to others- which I know you have just said.
          Oh, if we do not speak again soon, may I wish you a very
          happy Easter and do not eat too much chocolate.

          • Alexsandr

            I am an athiest so dotn hold a candle for the church, but I see the issues with islam. I think we can crusade against islam without being christian.

            • Tom Tom

              You are an Atheist so you have a firm Belief in Non-Existence

          • @PhilKean1

            And a happy Easter to you, Kitty.

        • Rocksy

          How about we don’t let them in then we don’t have to pretend that they’re equal.

      • Tom Tom

        Attendance at Church is not a factor in Christianity. The Church does not exist in The Bible but The Congregation does

        • you_kid

          . . . and does the congregation of that state religion own all the church land?

          • Tom Tom

            What does that mean ? What does Land Ownership have to do with Christianity ? You are a fetishist for Institutionalism. The largest landowner is The State – what is The sTate ? Who is The State ?

            • you_kid

              The Church Commisioners and the Church of England own more than 220,000 acres combined. Who are these people? The congregation? Which Non-gregation?

              • Tom Tom

                So The National Trust has 630,000 acres and it was founded in 1895 not 1 AD. MoD has 600,000 acres. Pension Funds hold 550,000 acres. RSPB has 321,000 acres.

                • you_kid

                  I will have to spell it out for you today.
                  The Secretary of State for Culture, an money man [sic] is ex officio Church Commissioner. that is as the headline suggests

                  Evangelical wishy-washy.

        • Baron

          Good point, Tom. In the religious census of 1851, the church attendance was as poor as today (it varies massively from one part of England to another however), and the Church of England’s followers habit of going to church was the lowest.

    • Kaine

      The infatuation of the Ecclesiarchy with homosexuality is their own problem. Perhaps they should concentrate on something more productive, like tackling poverty.

      • Colonel Mustard

        Perhaps you should.

        • Kaine

          Perhaps I should what, honey-buns?

          • Colonel Mustard

            Tackle poverty instead of posting socialist garbage here, klansman.

            • Kaine

              It’s not an either/or situation. After spending my days with those living with mental illness or unemployment I need a chuckle, and you never disappoint on that front sweet cheeks.

              • Colonel Mustard

                Pleased to hear it klansman. We could all do with a laugh now and then to help us forget the po-faced socialists, their smug sanctimony and their determination to make us all miserable.

                You can have the last word. I know that it matters a lot to you klansmen to have all the answers to everything.

    • @PhilKean1
  • Kitty MLB

    Mr Cameron, people who have faith have morality as a guidance.
    those without faith believe they have nothing to answer to.
    No moral code.

    • Alexsandr

      rubbish. people without faith can live to a set of values. They just dont need a deity to have those values.

      • Baron

        You are right, Alexander, people don’t need a deity to have a set of values, the policing of the values in such conditions is by a policeman not Him. Here lies the bitchy part, one can kill the former, never the latter. Big difference, that.

    • Daidragon

      You’re as big a loony as those muslims you keep banging on about.

    • manonthebus

      That’s a very foolish thing to write. I now know you for a fool.

  • Fergus Pickering

    Of course faith is sufficient for morality. What can he mean?

  • telemachus

    On this Good Friday when we remember the death of Christ expunging our sins we must laud any politician that takes the Christian message and exhorts us to apply it to our lives
    *
    My problem is that I do not believe that his motive is anything other than party political

    • Fergus Pickering

      I suggest you keep your mouth shut about what you know nothig about. Though that would be a notable first.

    • Kitty MLB

      Yes, Telemachus we know your support for Islam these days, your
      new voters are your motivation. Please do not mock Christianity or the Prime
      Ministers speech. Wonder what insightful words the soulless Milipede has
      to offer. It is Good Friday, so do hold the tongue, thank you old chap.

      • telemachus

        My devotion to the Christian faith is what leads me to wish for accommodation with Islam on this most holy of days
        *
        I however decry the cynical manipulation of religion for political ends
        Tony Blair and Alistair Campbell understood

        • Kitty MLB

          We should show others respect that show us respect.
          And accommodate others who accommodate us.
          Its all about respect, and we as a Christian country are more then tolerant . and others take advantage of that fact.

          • telemachus

            They need to be taught and led
            We must not change from our tolerance

            • Alexsandr

              there is tolerance and there is lying on our backs and say please come and take me.

              • telemachus

                I believe in passive aggression
                We need to Will the future
                And then go out and persuade

                • Alexsandr
                • telemachus

                  Not only is that not how the reasonable read the Koran but all moderate Muslims have moved away from fundamentalism
                  The Islamophobia of Farage and others drive the moderates into the arms of the radicals

                • Alexsandr

                  sorry. what has Farage got to do with centuries of islamists trying to create a worldwide caliph. He is a minor politician in a minor country.

                  a phobia is a fear of something that you know cannot harm you, like a spider in the bath. Having a fear you could reasonably feel to be true is not a phobia, its a fear. It is certainly not a prejudice or hatred.

                • telemachus

                  Look at Turkey
                  A powerful advanced prosperous country
                  The Muslims there are moderate and wish to coexist
                  There are those in the West who would wish to drive them away

                • Alexsandr

                  not sure the christians have it that good in Turkey. Tho its true the fundamentalists have not made great strides in the islamification. Attaturk did well to make a secular state but its fragile.

                • Tom Tom

                  Ataturk is dead so is his policy

                • Tom Tom

                  Turkey is increasingly fundamentalist under Erdogan….you know zilch about Turkey

                • you_kid

                  Istanbul society is fully assimilated by the cities of Berlin, Stuttgart and Wolfburg/Braunschweig

                • Realpolitik

                  Which has more honour killings than any other country in the entire world.

                • Realpolitik

                  Turkey? The country which banned Twitter and Youtube? Hamas supporting? Daily honour killings? Is this the Turkey you’re referring to? You used the term “Moderate Islam” A term their dictator denies.

                  http://pamelageller.com/2012/04/moderate-turke-y-world-leader-in-islamic-honor-killing.html/

                  http://pamelageller.com/2014/02/turkey-done.html/

                • Tom Tom

                  Saudi Arabia funds Turkey’s debt-fuelled trade deficit

                • telemachus

                  Excellent
                  But it does not expect fundamentalist adherence
                  *
                  PS It funds most western debt by buying our arms

                • Tom Tom

                  It does which is why the CIA runs weapons from Libya to Syria via Turkey and why Turkish military advisers are inside Syria coordinating attacks on Kurds and working for Prince Bandar. Saudi funds the mosques in the UK……..you really know zilch

                • Realpolitik

                  Do you just ignore people who completely destroy your arguments? You
                  cited “Turkey” as a symbol of Islam working for a country, Turkey has
                  more honour killings than any other country on planet earth, do you want
                  this for the UK too?

                • Wessex Man

                  answer the question, you are getting as bad as Hooky with your pathetic smears of Farage, where was it you stood for UKip again?

                • telemachus

                  On the contrary
                  I find Farage a perfectly personable chap
                  *
                  In Much the same fashion as David Williams on Britain’s got talent.

                • Kitty MLB

                  Smearing of Farage just will not work,the electorate have made
                  up their minds. I suppose I must reluctantly wish you a Happy
                  Easter too, Telemachus.

                • jesseventura2

                  A majority of muslims are living and breeding like dogs?
                  Fantasy allah don’t pay welfare benefits?

                • 2trueblue

                  Where did you get that idea. The current government are trying to desecularise the country. It is not a benign situation.

                • Realpolitik

                  Islam is Islam, A is A. Everything in the Qur’an is the direct word of God, and given the hundreds of versus calling for Jihad it’s something to be feared. I have studied the Qur’an extensively during my time at University.

                • Realpolitik

                  “Islamophobia”? There’s no such thing, a “phobia” is an “irrational fear” there’s nothing irrational about it.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR9LVf_KMO0

                • Realpolitik

                  You’d have us running around tearing down 2000 year old buildings with no actual justification other then the cry of “the future, modern, progression” and then replacing them with structures made of a couple of sticks and tarpaulin or more likely Mosques lead by hate preachers.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  There is no such thing as passive aggression beyond a defiant shout just before the aggressive execute you.

                • telemachus

                  Passive aggressive is a well honed political tool
                  Viz Thatcher and the miners

                • Colonel Mustard

                  There is no such thing. It is an invention.

                • Tom Tom

                  It is a mental condition – see DSM IV……..Tele has been reading his medical notes again

            • Tom Tom

              Christianity is not tolerant

            • Realpolitik

              “Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.”

            • Colonel Mustard

              “They” would disagree. You are imposing on an other. If you think tolerance will defeat extremism you are sadly deluded. The current cowardice in the West favours appeasement. That won’t work either.

              • telemachus

                Tolerance to win the moderates
                Ton of bricks for the extremists

                • Colonel Mustard

                  So, back to duplicity then and not much tolerance for those you determine to be extremists. The essential contradiction of the left. To deploy real evil in the cause of defeating assigned evil.

                • Realpolitik

                  Why should we show tolerance to the most intolerant ideology on earth?

          • Tom Tom

            Not tolerant at all simply not prepared to stand up for any belief or values

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            It`s hard to define Britain as a Christian country any more. Sure, it has a long Christian tradition, but the number of practicing Christians is a single-digit percentage. In fact there are nearly as many practicing Muslims as their are Christians. Now that`s a scary thought.

        • Tom Tom

          There is no “accommodation”

          • you_kid

            Abraham is Ibrahim.
            That was fully “accommodated” centuries ago.

        • Colonel Mustard

          How do you reconcile your “Christian faith” and your Marxism with its relish for scorning religion and punishing dissent? Or is it more of that same weird duplicity that permits lefties to champion women as victims in Western society but ignore their perils as victims in Islamic societies?

          • telemachus

            “For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” (Luke 18:25),

            Jesus Christ and Karl Marx agree on this. Poverty is pure; the poor will enter the kingdom of heaven; the proletariat will win the class struggle leading to the inevitable final concluding stage of history: communism.

            • Kitty MLB

              Jesus and Marx would never agree on any
              matter, your one sandwich short of a picnic
              telemachus.Class struggle my foot.
              Labour fiddled whilst Rome burned –
              Literally. Whilst they sold off all our gold
              and became wealthy themselves.

              • telemachus

                Jesus and Marx both saw all men as equal

                • Wessex Man

                  and where was the seat that you stand for in Ukip?

            • Colonel Mustard

              Which doesn’t answer my question. There was more to Jesus Christ and Marx than agreeing about the shoeless children of Tower Hamlets.

              Marx wrote:-

              “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions.”

              de Toqueville wrote:-

              “Despotism may govern without faith, but liberty cannot. How is it possible that society should escape destruction if the moral tie is not strengthened in proportion as the political tie is relaxed? And what can be done with a people who are their own masters if they are not submissive to the Deity?”

            • Baron

              We, the unwashed, and all the prophets from Jesus to Marx, agree on what we want. We, all the prophets …. differ how to get what we want. On this, Marx and Jesus are light years apart.

              • telemachus

                The only actual difference is that socialism wishes to create heaven on earth while all the greate religions are willing to defer

                • Wessex Man

                  where did you stand for UKip as a candidate?

            • Frank

              The lesson of history is that the proletariat always get crushed by the boots of their communist superiors.
              The lesson of the bible, in my view, is that you have to have achieved inner revelation to get into heaven. The fact that you are rich, or poor is utterly irrelevant (believe you me, you are a long way from showing any signs of inner revelation).
              The lesson of blogging is that eventually we will all be delivered from your cod philosophies.

              • telemachus

                Mebbe you are correct
                Heaven is achieved by forgiveness of sins in those who repent
                Socialism will not forgive those unwilling to divest their riches

                • Wessex Man

                  and where was it you stood for a seat in Parliament for Ukip again?

            • Tom Tom

              You really must recall that Marx and Jesus were both Jews, but to understand what you quote requires an understanding of the mis-translation of camel from the Greek

              • telemachus

                In thinking of the world remember Jews, Christians and Muslims have the same god, the God of Socialism
                All the same

                • Wessex Man

                  and where did you stand for UKip?

            • Wessex Man

              Where was it that you stood for a Parliamentary seat for UKip again?

          • Wessex Man

            Well I think it’s because he really doesn’t believe in anything and just loves to come on these pages to argue about all things to pass his time.

      • Wessex Man

        Well it’s not Good Fridaty today and I don’t believe a wotd of it, Call me Dave is an opportunist who will jump on any passing bandwagon to try and stay in power.

        His next desperate throw of the dice after the European Elections will be to approach my party UKip to form an electoral alliance. Meanwhile north of the border the yes campaign steams ahead and his lapdog CBI is falling apart.

        • Kitty MLB

          Yes I know, but it was more the message then
          the unfortunate mesanger.And Good Friday
          was not the time for chastisement.
          Anyway, Happy Easter to you, and don’t
          eat too much chocolate.

    • Ricky Strong

      You seem to forget that religion is political. It took the teachings of ancient peoples who understood nature, love and compassion and it twisted their knowledge to enslave people. Religion accumulated vast wealth and power from this act, so any religion that dares to teach me about morality and love can go and f*ck itself. I’ll give Francis his due for the much needed changes he is making, but as a whole religion is poison.

      Can you imagine Jesus walking into the Vatican city and looking at the wealth, the opulence, the power, the pontifications. He would feel most unwelcome.

      • telemachus

        Without religion there are no absolutes
        We simply have societal expedience
        In Germany that became to remove the perceived pestilence of a whole race

        • Tom Tom

          Really ? I think you will find it had to do with Bolshevism = Jews and Financial Capitalism = Jews. It was logical if misguided. Anyone seeking to break the power of Financialisation comes into conflict with Bankers who were predominantly Jewish in Germany and Austria…….and those who built the SPD and KPD and CPSU were largely Jewish.

          It was very clear why, and it has been deliberate policy for 70 years to obscure those reasons and manufacture the “Racism” Myth to enslave majority populations

          • telemachus

            Absolutely not
            The holocaust happened because the regime lost sight of the sanctity of human life and there was no moral force able to ensure such understanding

            • Wessex Man

              well maybe but where did you stand for UKip?

        • Wessex Man

          and where did you stand for Ukip?

      • Tom Tom

        I think Vatican City is quite small as is St Peter’s and certainly quite poor in contrast to the wealth in The City of London or even Hong Kong. You clearly are a Materialist since you utter not one iota with respect to FAITH

        • Ricky Strong

          The city of London and Hong Kong does not claim to speak on gods behalf, the Vatican represents all that does.

          From my view point it seems like it’s the world’s religions that are obsessed with materialism. I thought they just had a simple message to spread, but I guess gold, power, money, silk and land helps get that message across.

    • Realpolitik

      You’re the George Galloway of The Spectator. You humour Christianity with your tongue in your cheek whilst sitting in your Tower Hamlets garret dreaming up fantasies of Shari courts ruling over our lands.

      • telemachus

        The poor folk of Tower Hamlets get more caring from our Muslim brethren than our Christian Nation

        • Realpolitik

          Probably because they’ve displaced the Christians.

        • Baron

          Moving to Tower Hamlet, soon, are you, telemachus?

          • telemachus

            Baron son
            Christians and Muslims live in harmony in tower Hamlets
            They did before and they do after the BBC attempts to stoke up inter community hatred thru Panorama

            • Baron

              You’ve made Baron’s day calling him son. If only, if only, my sparring partner.

              Still, you haven’t answered his question. You see, many of your phylum say things like the NHS is brilliant, but I go private, the comprehensive schooling beats everything else, but my kids go private …

              So, you moving to Tower Hamlets, soon?

            • jesseventura2

              And the benefits of non working black and muslim drug dealing robbing and raping ghettos?

        • Baron

          But the Christian nation still furnished the money, telemachus.

    • Tom Tom

      Only Believers have the Grace of God the rest are damned

    • 2trueblue

      Thinking about Bliar who side stepped the issue and then embraced it when it suited him, after he left office. What amazes me is that having presided over a government who practically secularised this country he was then accepted into the Roman Catholic faith.

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