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As the Yes side rises in the polls, Scotland prepares for a Neverendum

23 April 2014

1:37 PM

23 April 2014

1:37 PM

I suspect I might be one of the Scottish journalists Iain Martin considers keen to make a melodrama from the independence referendum. Ten weeks ago I warned in this magazine that Alex Salmond could well lead Scotland to independence. Stuff and nonsense some folk said then. Well, perhaps. But nothing that has happened since has persuaded me I was wrong. 

Sure, the polls still show the No side leading but the general picture is clear: the Yes side are closing the gap. Of course there’s no law demanding that current trends continue indefinitely but, nevertheless, these are nervous times for the Unionist cause.

And for good reason. Consider the poster at the top of this post. It’s by far the best advertisement released by either side. Clear, simple, powerful.

Also, of course, mildly misleading since sensible Unionists do not dispute the notion Scotland could – after an awkward period of adjustment – make a pretty decent fist of life after independence. Can’t isn’t the real question. Should Scotland be independent is a different matter. Equally, does Scotland need to be independent? Self-evidently not since, by Salmond’s own estimation, it is a happy, successful, attractive place already. Could be better, perhaps, and might even be so after independence but scarcely intolerable now.

[Alt-Text]


Too often, however, Unionist politicians and the Better Together campaign have given the impression that independence is, ipso facto, a daft notion only nincompoops and dreamers could possibly favour. Perhaps. The country suffers no shortage of nincompoops and is amply stocked with dreamers too.

Some negativity is to be expected. It is the No campaign after all. Nevertheless you can have too much of a good thing and the Unionist campaign has become imprisoned by its own negativity. It risks becoming dreary. I say this not because I’d like it to be more exciting because that’s the sort of thing political journalists like but because there is a real risk that voters will simply cease listening to new warnings of disaster around the corner. There they go again…

Perhaps I spend too much time talking to and reading nationalist voters and this distorts my view of the referendum. Be that as it may, it is not difficult to find Yes voters. There are a lot of them out there and they’re not going anywhere.

There is a school of thought arguing that Better Together should have saved their biggest artillery for the final few weeks of the campaign. Offer a positive, uplifting, vision of the the Union’s future and then, in the final stages, nuke the Nats with negativity. See all these good things we enjoy already and by the way you might want to consider some of the costs and drawbacks that are an inevitable price of independence. They have, generally speaking, chosen the opposite approach.

It isn’t working brilliantly.

Sure, the balance of probabilities still favour a No vote but the days when Unionists dreamed of a 70-30 victory have long gone and will not return. 60-40 is the limit of their hopes these days and privately many concede they won’t reach that mark either. 55-45 will now be reckoned a decent result but it’s not an outcome that will settle the matter. Not even for a generation.

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Show comments
  • Andrew Leslie

    For the ‘balance of probabilities’, it’s worth keeping an eye on the bookies. Odds on a Yes vote have dropped and dropped over the last months and now stand at 2:1. Those of us campaigning for a Yes vote sense that the tide is turning: People are increasingly questioning the tactics of the No campaign, as doom and gloom appears to be the only card they are capable of playing. People south of the border – politicians and journalists alike, have never quite caught on to the strength of the grassroots campaign – bolstered by facebook and twitter – perhaps because there has never been the equivalent, since, maybe, Gladstone’s Midlothian campaign. We shall spend the next months ‘normalising Yes’ – you need no longer be afraid to contemplate a different future for your country.
    It’s actually quite inspiring to be part of this. Politics suddenly matter. Governance matters. Change matters.
    A lot of us are asking when is England going to wake up to this, and start questioning whether she needs to be mired in same old, same old?

    • Richard T

      “We shall spend the next months ‘normalising Yes’ – you need no longer be afraid to contemplate a different future for your country.”

      Well that’s hardly a new departure, the entire Indy campaign is based on just that soothing non-specificity, with a bit of ‘Westminster Tories’ dog-whistle stuff thrown in for the true believers.

      The problem is, it’s a false prospectus. The knee-jerk shout of “doom and gloom” every time another gaping hole in the edifice is politely pointed out keeps things bubbling along nicely, but I wouldn’t get too cocky about the prospect of the smoke and mirrors lasting all the way to the voting booths.

  • Auldreekie

    This is for Alex, if he gets past all the tit-for-tat.

    You’re right about the ‘neverendum’ if there’s a no victory. There is an aspect to the whole issue of independence, now, which is not recognised by many of the commentators in the London media: you hint at, but don’t spell it out.

    It is this: Scotland has changed, and drifted out of the UK establishment’s range of influence, The UK will never be the same again; too many of the Scottish population have got used to the idea of a Scotland without Westminster and Whitehall interference.. A substantial proportion of the Scottish population thinks that the country’s future lies in independence: a solid majority, assuredly, believes in maximum devolution, at the very least. And too many have enjoyed this sense of democracy, of aspiration and the possibility of new ideas, in contrast to which the UK seems dull, anglocentric, locked in the past, ever nostalgic, blinkered, failing and just plain dead. Independence is inevitable, because for Scotland it betokens life.

    • Richard T

      In reality, of course, the “London media” is very conscious of Scottish perceptions of difference, and aspirations for increased self-determination. I can’t speak for the red-tops, but certainly the broadsheets and Auntie address this ‘deep background’ to the referendum with some regularity.

      Whether or not independence is inevitable is a matter of opinion, but the notion that the rest of the UK is unconscious of the tension between autonomy and the minimum constitutional/institutional integrity of a union is simply wrong, and the product, ironically enough, of Scottish self-absorption and parochialism. We see it even in seasoned political commentators, who seem quite unable to see rational UK self-interest as anything other than a punitive assault on Scottish rights.

      In the immediate context though, the question is why, if the Scottish electorate is yearning for fundamental change, the Yes campaign is focusing quite so relentlessly on telling the electorate quite how seamless, painless and limited the consequences of Yes will be. From shopping in Carlisle to a huge array of continuing shared institutional arrangements to – absurdly, at this point – the insistence that the entire UK political and bureaucratic establishment and commentariat is ‘bluffing’ about a Currency Union, the message is “don’t worry, you’ll get to have your cake and eat it”.

      Plainly, if the SNP-dominated Yes campaign feels the need for this kind of obfuscation and dishonesty, it is not confident that the Scottish electorate is ready for hard choices or negative consequences. Personally, I think they’re right in their assumption that Sillars-style fundamentalism simply won’t sell at this point. And I don’t think that the shell-game will survive hard scrutiny by cautious, risk-averse voters, whatever narrowing polls might tell us about general sentiment.

      I agree with you that inherent tensions between autonomy and union will survive anything but an unlikely overwhelming “No”.

  • john

    After the Scots vote yes, can we have a refendum on the monarchy?
    The swing to the Independence Yes camp shows that popular opinion is not where the pundits thought it was. Same about the royals, I believe the anti-royal camp would stage a pretty good fight and rock the comfy asumptions of the London elites.

  • http://Thegrouse.tumblr.com The Grouse

    To give wee Eck credit – he has presented a version of independence that boils down to “let’s keep the good bits but get rid of the Tories” which is always going to be an appealing message in Scotland given historical voting patterns. Personally I think independence will lead to Scotland being a socialist republic within Europe and likely using the Euro. That of course is not what is being presented or debated and instead we get comforting propaganda that of course you’ll keep the pound, have the Queen as head of state, continue to watch the BBC and Coro and have your existing pensions and benefits safe guarded. The no campaign has so far failed to present a positive message for the future of the union – particularly to the social media generation and therefore left itself open to a view that independence can’t be any worse than the status quo.

  • roger

    So if they vote ‘no’ they get asked again and again but if they vote ‘yes’ they don’t get a chance in a few years to undo a mistake, not logical.

  • DaveTheRave

    Perhaps the people of Scotland should be asked to vote again, just like the Irish when they made the ‘wrong’ choice? In all seriousness (the last remark WAS serious!) let Scotland do what it wants, all this endless talk about the destiny of 5 million people when the 50+million of England are ignored, considered irrelevant, or just what remains of the ‘UK’. Huh!

  • EschersStairs

    Scotland has been a weight around England’s neck since at least Edward I, and England a pain in Scotland’s rear from David I. Scotland’s claim to self-determination is legitimate, and the converse of that argument is true also.
    Both are quite capable of having a constructive relationship outside the current cantankerous political union. Economic agreements could be formed that would avoid step-changes in the existing economic union. And the difficulty of separating is fictional if we assume that the UK has even the slightest capacity for developing intelligently structured beaurocracy.

  • Fernando5

    I know the ‘No’ side are jittery but
    I can’t see the ‘Yes’ side winning myself. This is not an issue where people vote tactically or
    take a lucky punt. Families will find members living in foreign countries. I look at the fundamentals and the
    fundamentals point to a big win for the status quo. There is no great historic
    grievance unlike Ireland and the Union has been a resounding success for at
    least a couple of centuries. At the very least separation will disrupt the
    Scottish economy in the short-term and cause many to worry about their jobs. To
    the extent that oil will finance a higher standard of living that is at best
    short-term. I can’t see them getting more than a third of the vote.

    • pjh64

      Sadly there’s no prospect whatsoever that Yes will win. They’d need to be 10 points ahead at this stage to have any chance, and they’re not even close. As the vote draws nearer, voters will tend to fall back to the safety of the status quo, just as an opposition party needs a big lead before a G.E. as some of that lead normally evaporates.

  • Rossspeak

    I have really had enough of all this – and fervently hope that Scotland votes YES.
    They are welcome to wee Alex and his lies and falsehoods – provided that the BOE sticks to its guns and denies an Independent Scotland -which keeps the pound- central bank backing the markets will pull the ceiling down in weeks.
    PLUS – we will be rid of the Scottish MP’s in Westminster.
    I fear , however, that the Scots will vote NO-with their cautious wallets in mind.

  • scotcanadien

    “there is a real risk that voters will simply cease listening to new warnings of disaster around the corner.”

    We stopped listening a LONG time ago and started laughing.

    “There is a school of thought arguing that Better Together should have
    saved their biggest artillery for the final few weeks of the campaign.”

    Not much of a campaign strategist are you? BT shot its bolt early in the year hoping to halt the YES advance because, they, we, know, you SHOULD know that the YES campaign will begin to steamroller NO during the last few weeks of the campaign just like the SNP has always done.

    “Offer a positive, uplifting, vision of the the Union’s future”

    What a pathetic statement. There is NO “positive, uplifting, vision of the the Union’s future” in existence. England, WM, are busted flushes heading for another bust around 2020 after the cheapskate Fat One’s housing boom to gain re-election has run its course.

    • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

      It’s good to see you’re making a hard-headed, considered approach to such a momentous decision. I’d hate to see people in Scotland voting on the basis of starry-eyed promised land.

      • Derick Tulloch

        No, not romance: money. It’s always about money. Scotland has subsidized the UK financially for as long as records exist – into the 1890s. In the 1920s and 1950s less than half the tax raised in Scotland was spent here. The rest was siphoned off for ‘Imperial Services’. The situation is closer now, but we still have uses for the £4bn or so we send south every year. Yes for a decent pension!

        I don’t know why Alex Massie won’t get off his knees and join Wealthy Nation or the Scottish Democratic Alliance? Have a bit self-respect and a hard headed look at your nation’s finances Alex. If the right has a case in Scotland, let’s hear it and stop expecting the English to do the work for you!

        • Wessex Man

          You teller of little pork pies merchant, you, before you had the Barnett Formula, you had the Goschen Formula that ran from 1888!

          Even to today EU money sent to aid deprived areas of England was diverted by Cameron to Scotland ‘because it’s good to share’ what he should have said was’I don’t want to go down in history as the Prime Minister who lost the Union, and will give them just about anything to keep this corrupt Union together!’

          While the majority of the English people want to see you win and become ‘Idependent.’

          • Derick Tulloch

            No, with respect (genuinely – you do get a decent quality of debate on here in Tory Central), both Goschen and Barnett only give us a small proportion of our own money back.

            All through the 20th Century only half the taxes raised in Scotland, were spent in Scotland. That is just a fact. All that time Scotland was suffering massive emigration. Totally unecessary.
            http://wingsoverscotland.com/before-the-oil-the-deluge/

            As the Financial Times noted, Scotland would be 11% better off financially on day one. That is a small loss to England’s finances, and a large gain to Scotlands, proportionally

            http://archive.today/vcQ78

            • Wessex Man

              That’s like telling me to go to the BNP site for racial tolerance data!

              • Derick Tulloch

                The difference is the Reverend Stuart sources his data. Unlike Ye Nuckle dragging hordes. Read the link.

  • Radford_NG

    A Salmon victory will be on a narrow margin.The majority of Scots will not actively vote yes;many who do will be EU aliens.Scots in England and elsewhere,such as in the great Scottish Dominions of Canada and New Zealand,do not have the vote.It appears the Scottish Scots in the Highlands and Islands are the most pro-union,along with women and the young.It is the old guard in the [ex]industrial lowland who are pro-nationalist.

    In the event of independence-within the EU,which is what Salmon calls for-we should remember it will still be Westminster that represents the majority of Scots and while not pandering to the Nats.we should not take a negative attitude to the Scottish people.

    • Maidmarrion

      The man to whom you refer is called SALMOND – Mister to you.
      If you can’t be bothered to even get his name correct why should anyone give what you write any credence whatsoever.

      • The Laughing Cavalier

        With or without a ‘d’ there is something fishy about the man.

        • allymax bruce

          You’re just jealous; or, tell us what is ‘fishy’.
          If you don’t know, or can’t say, then it’s you who is introjecting your own fear.

  • swatnan

    OK, I’m convinced. Que sera sera, what will be will be.
    What the British Isles needs is a massive political earthquake to shake it out of its complacency; and this could be it.

  • RavenRandom

    If Alex is right it’s welcome to Quebec. You can’t keep asking the question until you get the answer you like. If Scotland chooses to stay in the union, I for one don’t want to have to go through all this crap again in 10 years.
    If it’s close but Scotland stays, it’s time for a comprehensive federal settlement for all the countries of the UK. And that includes disenfranchised England, the only one that doesn’t get its own parliament.

    • Jonathan Burns

      I have to agree the UK should go federal, however as usual the Labour Party messed up and the Conservative did sod all.

  • you_kid

    You just cannot prepare for failure other than by concentrating yet more artificial
    asset wealth in the capital city.

    • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

      Huh?

      I can tell the words are English, but I haven’t the faintest idea what you’re trying to say.

      • you_kid

        When the realm is about to shrink (yet again) what you do is concentrate the wealth in the centre. A typical home in SW1 (artificially) increased by £250k in value last year alone.

        • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

          Oh. I see. Thank you for the clarification.
          I still haven’t the faintest idea what your point is though.

          • you_kid

            bless

  • rod robertson

    Oh dear Alex ,you still are in denial ,there will be a YES vote and by a very handy margin I am going 60 -40 in favour of yes.
    Unlike you sitting wherever that may be I am one of those non Party affiliated YES Campaigners.
    Day and night I see first hand the positivity in the YES side and the anger at the negative bile and lies of Project Fear.
    Only those in the Westminster ,MSM bubble believe that bringing out Gordon Brown and placing him in front of a very carefully selected audience in a location kept quiet for fear of any YESSERs arriving and asking difficult questions of the man who single handed, destroyed British pensions and who now with the help of his mates in the undemocratic and frantic British media spewing his fear at Scottish pensioners of the disaster of a YE Vote.
    You lot do not get it ,especially the journos that only arrive in Scotland for the Edinburgh Festival or the bi annual England Ruby International.
    You Alex need to get into the streets ,tonight and every night in halls and community centres throughout Scotland there are debates and discussions open to all and invigorating the entire nation
    The optmisim of what can be is out trumping the prophets of doom and gloom.
    There will be no Neverendum the YES Vote will prevail.

    • Jonathan Burns

      Oh dear copy and paste Nat. If you do nothing but attend Flat Earth events you will find overwhelming support for a flat Earth.

    • Doggie Roussel

      Ga ga, or what… what is the ‘bi annual England Ruby International?’… as a doctor, I would suggest that you get checked out for locomotor ataxia.

  • Jonathan Burns

    The usual Spectator level of journalism, Yes I’d making headway in online polls, however there is very little change in face to face polls.
    It is easy for a Yes to infiltrate online polls but very hard to do this with traditional polls.
    Then again you still support the Tories so journalistic competence is hardly your thing.

  • Kitty MLB

    A List of Questions that Scottish people have, Salmond is yet to answer.
    1) The currency union, he cannot keep the £ and why would he want to,
    he says Scotland will be ‘ oil’ wealthy, and he wouldn’t have the fiscal levers he keeps on about if the BOE and the UK treasury were in control, and if they joined the Euro
    Scotland would be the main source of cash for the EU.
    2)How much will mortgage payments be going up by.
    3) How much will pensions be devalued by.
    4) The price of Food
    5)If Business’s move south or change because of taxes- what about jobs
    6) The expanding welfare budget
    7) What will happen when the oil reserves and other natural resources have gone.
    8) Trident- Scotland will be left vulnerable.
    There is still a deep suspicion of independence, and I am sure there will be more
    polls to come. But Independence means just that, no support-financially or otherwise
    the English will not allow it.

    • Adrian Burns

      8) Vulnerable to what? Vulnerable to not getting a nuclear strike because we have a submarine base on the West coast?

      Who would Scotland need to deter with Trident? In fact, who does the UK need to deter with Trident? Which countries or agencies that might launch a nuclear strike would be deterred? None, because the only ones that would ever get to that stage would be a terrorist group that somehow got hold of a nuclear device. Would they be deterred. No.

      They’re an expensive and pointless waste of time.

      • Jonathan Burns

        If you are a NATO you have to accept nuclear weapons in your territory chuckles.

        • Jambo25

          No you don’t chuckles.

          • Jonathan Burns

            It is called don’t ask and don’t tell re nukes.

            • Jambo25

              Most NATO states are non-nuclear. Some NATO states will simply not allow nuclear weapons on their territory.

        • Adrian Burns

          Like Canada?

          • Jonathan Burns

            The Canadian’s don’t need to use Sterling and they might well regret not having nukes if Russia grab any more of the North Pole. Don’t worry Scotland will be safe under the BIG BLANKET the SNP have the Green Party knit.

      • Andrian Harsono

        It is perfectly normal to disavow nuclear weapons and remain part of Nato. Denmark and Norway have shown us that, but an independent Scotland trying to expel the Trident from their soil is a whole different thing. It’s not the end of the world, but will be very frowned upon by the alliance for refusing to participate in burden-sharing.

    • Wessex Man

      Kitty, most of those questions are none of our business, let the Scots have their ‘Independence’, it will be none of our business until the negotiation begin after and the UK side of the negotiations had better hold their nerve as the Fat Controller threatens doom doom and doom if we don’t let him have his way on every single issue.

      • Doggie Roussel

        The ‘Fat Controller’… brilliant and replaces the Tub of Lard…

        • scotcanadien

          Are you still living in the Land of Nod? The”Fat Controller” is SO…O last year.

          • terregles2

            Always a sign that the person who denigrates anyone’s personal appearance has nothing worthwhile to say.
            Most people grow out of that behaviour in their teenage years.

            • Wessex Man

              Much like Scotscanadian, who hopefully will find something useful to do after September.

              • allymax bruce

                That’s all you do on this forum; run-down other commenters. Get a life you pathetic clown.

        • allymax bruce

          Pathetic Imbecile.

          • Wessex Man

            Well if you actually read my comments you would find that i support the Yes Campaign, I just feel sorry for sane Scots that they will have to put up with fools like you and Scotcandian after they win the referendum.

            • allymax bruce

              No, you ‘groom’ the online Scots; that’s different from pretending you agree with them. You weirdo!

      • Kitty MLB

        Well it might be our business if the British taxpayer
        was in some way disadvantaged because Salmond
        is a sly old fox and Westminster are not on their
        Guard, when all these messy negotiations take
        place over the coming years. Besides some honest
        talking needs to start.

        • terregles2

          Kitty I can understand your doubts about the competence of Cameron and his feeble government to deal with anything. They cannot even handle the economy never mind any negotiations for the dissolution of the union.
          Try and be positive though. Hopefully England will find some competent people to take part in the English cross party negotiation team. Cometh the hour cometh the man.

          • Wessex Man

            It’s not just England you know, it’s the United Kingdom.

        • allymax bruce

          Nonsense. It wasn’t Scotland’s business when we had the Poll-Tax forced on us as guinea pigs. Illegal Iraq war, WMD’s, Financial Crash, Bedroom Tax; just a few oppressive policies imposed on Scotland by Westminster. Who said this was a ‘Union’? I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.

          • Wessex Man

            Go and lie down in a dark, calm down, have a cry and stop being so precious, it’s not all about you you know, you imbecile.

            • allymax bruce

              You “Go and lie down in a dark”; imbecile !

              • Wessex Man

                Who taught you a new word?

          • Andrian Harsono

            Do not think that somehow anti-Tory sentiment is unique to Scotland. There are also plenty in Northern England who got screwed over by Mrs. T in the 1980’s and there are millions all around the UK who opposed the war in Iraq and there are still efforts today to drag Tony Blair to court.

            As you can tell, I am very much a Unionist. Divorce is not the answer. The optimal way forward for Scotland is devo-max, where Scotland can form their own domestic policies without ever having to worry about the Tories ever again but at the same time be under the overall umbrella that is the UK, complete with Nato, EU, G8 and G20 membership.

            In the event of a “No” vote, it would be political suicide for Westminster not to devolve more powers to Scotland, that would just be daft for them and I would support demo-max fully.

    • MichtyMe

      If you want answers to reasonable questions you can peruse the Governments White Paper where it answers 600+ And the No people have to answer lots of questions about Scotland’s future in the Union if the vote No. But they will not or cannot, on taxes, interest rates, prices, welfare etc etc, Will we be in EU in the future? will the UK join the euro? will there be more changes to pension provision, what will be the consequences of the UK defaulting on its titanic debt, will London abolish Scots Law and impose sharia law and on and on, get the idea.

      • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

        Seems to me the answers are pretty evident. Will we be in theEU in future? In the short term, yes. The long term is something we’ll have top argue about. Independent Scotland, it seems clear, will be out for the foreseeable.

        Will the UK join the Euro? Well, what do you think? Neither will Scotland any time soon, though God knows why you’d even want to.

        Pension provisions: almost certainly, but independent Scotland will have to also, as your very own, dearly beloved, Gordon Clown elaborated just yesterday.

        National debt default? Hasn’t happened yet, and don’t imagine Scotland will get to walk away without it’s fair share.

        Answers to reasonable questions: I don’t know what question could actually be more reasonable than “What will be your currency,post independence?” For all your 600 answers, you don’t have an answer to that one. You’ve produced three to date, none of them very credible,

        How will you defend yourselves? How will you protect your borders? How will you organise your intelligence services? None of this had been considered.

        • MichtyMe

          How would we defend ourselves? I suppose much in the way all other states in Europe do, many with less capability than Scotland. If you could suggest a credible threat I could try a more detailed answer.

          • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

            Yes, quite possibly. But you don’t have any plan for how you’re going to do it.

            Armies doing just happen. Your proposed defence budget is a fantasy. Their are no officer-training facilities in Scotland. No specialist-training facilities in Scotland. The only military medical service in Scotland is a company of part timers in Glasgow.

            It’s all very well saying, “We’ll defend ourselves like this or that,” but HOW are you hoping to do it? Nobody knows anything about nuts and bolts; just reveries about submarines and Tornadoes, and redirecting the Scottish regiments of old. I mean, what kind of radios will they use? What kind of rifle? What uniform will they wear, and hire much wIll it cost? Nobody has a clue.

            • MichtyMe

              There are many studies and plans for and Independent Scotland’s defense.

              Here is one from the Royal United Services Institute.
              http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-19955309

              • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

                Brilliant. You know, I could write a report on how Scotland’s defence might be organised. But what is your independent government going to do? Are they going to adopt this plan from the Royal United Services Institute (I note that it says no submarines, which is not what the SNP’s manifesto says)? Will they adopt somebody else’s plan? Will they take the Mauritian option and have no military at all? What?

                Nobody knows. For all the decades of aspiration, nobody in the SNP has actually thought this far down the line, about this, or about numerous other serious questions.

                • Alexsandr

                  what about creating a revenue service, network rail, air accident and rail accident investigators, a mint, postal service, secret services and radio interception, a CAA, driver and vehicle licensing, immigration and border control, embassies.

                • Doggie Roussel

                  hey, that’s going to cost a few bob !

                • Wessex Man

                  NOOoooo don’t say that and turn them off!

                • Derick Tulloch

                  All of which will be spent here, rather than as at present in London. Except embassies of course. Bags I Ambassador to the Bahamas!

                • allymax bruce

                  Now ye’r getting the idea.

                • Derick Tulloch

                  We could use Nimrod for maritime surveillance. Oh….

              • pjh64

                You only need to defend something that’s likely to be invaded.

                • Doggie Roussel

                  Or even worth invading and conquering… I can’t see many sovereign nations wanting to annex that poxy statelet, Scotland…

    • Sunshine Pete™

      The English will not allow it? Cameron/Clegg/Miliband are not about to ask the English, and surely nobody thinks our political class will suddenly become bellicose about defending the interests of England?

    • allymax bruce

      I didn’t even bother trying to read your nonsense; greetin-faced gits; get your own ‘house’ in order, don’t bother Scotland with your petty grievances.

      • Wessex Man

        dear Allymax idiot, please calm down, I don’t want to be paying for you to have Heart Surgery.

        • Kitty MLB

          This is so unlike him.

          • Wessex Man

            no it tends to happen in the afternoon, just after he’s woken up.

            • Kitty MLB

              But, he’s like my Scottish metaphorical big brother, he doesn’t usually bash me over the head. Would give him a big hug but I have a feeling that he would bite me at the moment.

            • allymax bruce

              Ha! Now that’s funny; being condescending for you, is funny for me.

        • allymax bruce

          Get lost you cretin; no pleading to me will get you quarter!

          And, you don’t pay for anything in Scotland!

    • Derick Tulloch

      1 conflating two different things. Scotland will use the pound.

      2 not by anything

      3 they will go up (see OECD pensions at a glance – only Mexico pays a worse state pension than the UK)

      4 Scotland is a net exporter of food.

      5 they won’t. why would they? And if so, do you really think a gap in the market will go unfilled.

      6 no idea what you are on about

      7 we will make things and, like, sell them. Scottish GDP per capita without oil is 99% of the UK’s. See Standard & Poors recent report

      8 I’m actually giggling at that one. Under the UK Scotland has no surface ships based here, no maritime surveillance and virtually no ground forces.

      We don’t need financial support. How many times do you have to be told this?

      Overall fail. 1/10 for effort, 2/10 for punctuation. Kitty has talent must try harder

      • Kitty MLB

        Its a little early to be drinking the Whiskey for
        breakfast( You are not keeping Englands currency,
        you will have to invent you own)
        Those questions were not from me, they were from
        some Scottish people afraid of Emperor Salmonds
        new eutopian dream .
        Oh and learn some manners.

        • Derick Tulloch

          1412. The year fourteen hundred and twelve AD.
          The year Scotland adopted the Pound Scots as her currency
          Manners? I apologize if you thought that rude. But your list was mince, missus.

          • Wessex Man

            ah Derick, you were getting on so well with Kitty as well.

        • Derick Tulloch

          Apologies if you found that a little nippy.
          It’s just that we have heard all these spurious questions a million times before, and it gets tedious

          • Kitty MLB

            I apologise, recycled questions are rather wearisome. Also
            sorry for suggesting you drink whisky for breakfast. Mind
            you I have had whisky about 10am when in Scotland during
            mid-winter after a long windswept walk on Mull ( friends live there) warms you up very quickly.

      • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

        1. Okay, so Scotland continues to use the pound illegally. It is dependent on individuals sending BoE bank notes back to Scotland. Does this sound like a stable economy to you?

        Scottish banks might continue printing their own notes, but with no official backing from a central bank, it will effectively be a new currency of very little value. Inflation will soar, rendering all those Scottish manufactures that you mention in 7 increasingly uncompetitive

        In that situation, Scotland will also have no central bank. The Scottish government won’t be able to issue bonds. You won’t be able to control your interest rates, you’ll have no control over the money supply. That hasn’t worked out terribly well for Europe, has it? Short of printing money, it’ll also struggle finding sufficient money to pay the national debt, and if it defaults, the interest rate will shoot through the roof (that’s your mortgage, we’re talking about). High inflation combined + high interest rates = economic disaster.

        This proposal to use the pound illegally is lunacy, and anyone who says otherwise either doesn’t understand basic economics or is in denial. You should be very worried about this.

        2 and 3: Gordon Brown just a couple of days ago spoke about how mortgages, pensions and benefits would be negatively affected by independence. The Scottish government currently operates a deficit, subsidised by the UK. Post independence, those subsidies will almost certainly stop. Without a central bank, and therefore unable to borrow, the Scottish government will have to cut sharply. Of course, Salmond’s bribes of free child care and so on, are simple fantasy. Independent Scotland with an illegal currency will never be in a position to deliver.

        5: Numerous businesses have stated their intention to move out, included Standard Insurance and RBS. The SNP’s policy is to ditch Trident, so that would be a few thousand other jobs gone.

        7. Apart from oil and gas (which are running out; peak oil was achieved some years ago, and Scotland extracts only about two-thirds of what it used to), what does Scotland have a strong manufacturing ability in? What major industries does Scotland actually have currently, apart from ship-building for the Royal Navy, (which is unlikely to continue post-independence)? Can you run a country on whisky? Wind energy is uneconomic without heavy subsidies, so exporting that would seem a non-starter.

        Assuming the SNP’s dream of joining the EU were realised, you’ll be a small economy on the periphery of Europe, trying to compete with Germany and Holland; rather like Ireland, Greece, Portugal, Cyprus. Exports of Scotch would probably continue to do well, although, if Scotland has rampant inflation, it’ll find it increasingly undercut by Irish and American whiskey, and Japan, the world’s largest whisky producer, might well decide to muscle in on Scotland’s markets. But you can’t run a modern economy on whisky.

        8. The SNP has no clear plan for Scotland’s firm defence, and what is written in the manifesto is essentially a fantasy. Scotland has no officer-training facilities, no specialist-training facilities, the only military medical service in Scotland is a company of part timers in Glasgow. No thought has been given to the equipment to be issued to Scottish soldiers, and for all that the independence manifesto daydreams of resurrecting the old Scottish regiments, constructing new barracks has been overlooked. It goes without saying that nobody has attempted any serious mathematics.

        Given the probable economic consequences of using the pound illegally, I doubt Scotland could afford a military in any case, much less the squadrons of Tornadoes imagined by the manifesto (Scotland also has no combat-aircraft training facilities)

        Independent Scotland WILL need financial support, for many years to come. If it can’t issue its own currency, properly backed with a lender of last resort, it’s pretty much destined to be a basket case, I’m afraid.

        Without a central bank, you won’t be able to join the eurozone either.

  • CraigStrachan

    I’m sticking with 61-39 NAW.

  • Bill Cruickshank

    Never thought I would agree with you on anything Alex, but I think this article is spot on. I actually think YES is in a slight lead at the moment. I predicted a 60/40 split in favour of YES about a year ago, but I am now thinking YES could go higher. Of course that latest prediction is based on nothing more than experience of political campaigning over 40 years, instinct and speaking to people from all over Scotland. Only time will tell of course, but there is little doubt that there has been a big swing to YES since the turn of the year.

    • Doggie Roussel

      One can almost sense the pursed lips and the tightly-clenched buttocks as the sage of Haddington squeezes out another patronising and presumptuous edict.

      You will be very welcome to your poxy little statelet, come September, when there will be a humongous celebration of finger-pinking, self congratulatory and aggrieved Scots celebrating a very short-lived New Dawn.

      • Bill Cruickshank

        Really don’t see the point of such abuse.

        • Jambo25

          He really cannot help it. He’s fairly representative of many English right wingers and Unionists.

          • Maidmarrion

            You mean he has some form of Tourettes syndrome?
            How perfectly awful for him.

            • Jambo25

              I think its a bit more worrying than that. I’m quite happy to post under my real name and location in various publications but there are some where the abuse and the general use of language is so extreme that I would never dream of doing so. They are mainly sections of the right-wing London based MSM. There seems to be a lot of barely suppressed anger about down south. Far more, strangely enough, than I find in day to day conversations about the forthcoming referendum up here.

        • Maidmarrion

          Empty vessels Bill!

      • allymax bruce

        Doggerel.

        • Wessex Man

          that’s a big word for you.

          • allymax bruce

            But it describes yoo-and ye’r-lot very well!

            • Wessex Man

              still a big word for you.

  • http://blog.widmann.org.uk/ Thomas Widmann

    If No wins by 55% or less, I do expect a new referendum will happen within ten years.

    On the other hand, if it’s a Yes (even if it’s a narrow victory), I expect most people from the No campaign to start fighting Scotland’s corner relatively quickly. This is because I don’t know of many countries that after independence have had a large group of people trying to undo the divorce. As far as I know, nobody is campaigning for reunification with the UK in the Republic of Ireland, the Slovaks don’t pine for the good old Czechoslovakian days, the Norwegians like their independence and have no desire to reunify with either Sweden or Denmark, etc., etc. Ukraine might be an exception, but that’s due to the differences between the eastern and western halves, and Scotland is surely more similar to Ireland, Norway or Slovakia than to Ukraine.

    • ChuckieStane

      Good points Thomas.
      What people fail to realise is much of the solid “No” polling is not from existentialist unionists but rather from staunch Labour voters who hate the SNP, not Scotland. Many commentators are perplexed by the lack of activitsts for No when the polls still show majority support. The silent loyal-to-Labour block partially explains this. The Conservatives and LibDems similarly have loyal supporters toeing the party line on the referendum but who will embrace independence if democratically chosen and see new opportunities.
      The likes of Jackson Carlaw have exeplified this when he said that although against indy, he would be fighting for Scotland’s interests immediately after a Yes vote.

      • CraigStrachan

        I’m sure everyone will embrace the result of the referendum as an expression of the democratic will of the Scottish people, which will be definitive on the question of independence.

        • Derick Tulloch

          If it’s Yes.
          No will simply result in the whole business dragging on unless you are going to ban elections
          Let’s get it done and dusted this time
          Independence is the only stable end point

          • CraigStrachan

            Either Yes or No will settle the matter.

            • Derick Tulloch

              We can do this all day. Yes will settle the matter, No will only prolong it.

              • CraigStrachan

                It sounds a bit like your saying you’ll accept a result you like, but not one you don’t like.

                Have you heard of this awkward little thing called democracy?

                • Derick Tulloch

                  Of course we would accept the result.
                  And then immediately begin campaigning again for another referendum and an Yes vote in that.
                  Democracy.

                • CraigStrachan

                  Well, I suppose the Scottish people will be able to deliver their opinion about another referendum in the UK general election of 2015 and the Scottish parliament election of 2016, both of which will be quite tricky for the SNP after a NO vote.

                • Derick Tulloch

                  Likely outcome would be yet another ‘one more heave’ from Labour, which would miserably fail. Followed by a stonking SNP majority in 16, and another referendum. Meanwhile the UK will be getting weaker, as it has done for decades. We shall see.

                • CraigStrachan

                  I’d be surprised if the SNP even campaign on a referendum pledge in ’16. (Which makes sense, as they’ll have just been told NO, and asking again so soon would be rude).

              • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

                That rather depends on the size of the majority. If it’s a close No, I’m sure the Yes camp will continue.

                But if it’s massively No (as in the AV referendum), holding a new referendum in the short term would be a bit pointless.

                I know the EU is fond of doing so, but it’s generally considered an undermining of the democratic process to keep re-running referendums until the desired result is achieved. If Yes should mean Yes, No should mean No.

                • Derick Tulloch

                  Agree with your first paragraph. Disagree with the second.
                  Independence is the stable solution, and tens of thousands of people like me will keep at it, with humour and patience, until we get there.

  • JonBW

    Why aren’t the English electorate allowed a say?

    Many of us would like to see an end to the Union.

    • Jambo25

      Then demand that you have a say. Stop whining.

      • Wessex Man

        OK this is not right we want a vote in the Scottish Referendum or it’s cancellation or we will go to the Court of European Human Rights!

        Or on the other hand maybe not and just hope the Scots vote yes!

        • Jambo25

          if you want an end to the Union then demand it.

          • Doggie Roussel

            We are not given that privilege… unlike you over-indulged Scotch parasites !

            • Jambo25

              Presumably, judging by he above reply, because you are too stupid and lazy to do anything than spray puerile insults about.

            • scotcanadien

              Well the English are the most parasitical shower on earth. Preening,
              precious, pretentious, puffed up little blowhards, with an overblown
              idea of their self importance. Been living off Scotland for the last 40
              years and have neither the grace nor wit to be thankful. And a very apt
              phrase to describe them is … “if you meet an arsehole in the morning
              you met an arsehole, if you meet arseholes all day you’re in England.”

              • Derick Tulloch

                I disagree strongly with that. England has aresholes, Scotland has arseholes, everywhere does. But most aren’t
                And I know that Scottish Independence will be good for England, just as Norwegian Independence was good for Sweden (once they stopped sulking)

                • allymax bruce

                  The cringe bites; and you decide who the ‘arseholes’ are?

                • Derick Tulloch

                  No cringe.
                  Yes I do

                • allymax bruce

                  That’s the biggest CRINGE I’ve ever seen! And that’s saying something.
                  Enjoy your cringe; it’s a one-way street.

                • Wessex Man

                  Obviously you and Scotcanadian as usual.

                • allymax bruce

                  The online groomer strikes again!
                  Watch out for the Village Idiot, his plan is to find out where you live, what you do, where you go; he’s grooming you!

                • scotcanadien

                  Stop pandering to them. Arseholes like them will never vote YES no matter how nice you are.

                • Derick Tulloch

                  We all have to live together afterwards. I know they won’t vote Yes, but I want them to accept the Yes vote with good grace.

                • scotcanadien

                  You are joking. These people are missing a connection or two. They will NEVER accept a YES vote with good grace. So best to take the p1ss when we have the chance.

              • Wessex Man

                what a childish little ditty from such an immature little mind.

                • scotcanadien

                  And doggie bendover is OK?

          • Wessex Man

            We’ll just have to leave it to industrious people like you now as it’s too late, the rate that the ECHR works. So all we can do now is wish you Yes Campaigners well and offer to come up and doorstep with you.

            • Jambo25

              I’m being serious. I don’t agree with much you post but you are right that the people of England are getting a raw deal in terms of representation but you really have to pressure those who are responsible and they are the overcentralising Britnats at Westminster.

              • Wessex Man

                I agree entirely, That’s why I am trying to get my party to to take on board for the 2015 GE manifesto a Parliament for England. thanks for your comment and now back to the idiots.

            • allymax bruce

              Oh, so you are not happy with your Westminster government; and you complain to Scotland, of whom, are voting to leave it!
              You’re an imbecile.

              • Wessex Man

                where did I say that Allymax idiot?

                • allymax bruce

                  You moan about Westminster all the time; you don’t even know what you post. You’re a cretin.

        • scotcanadien

          See my comment above about the Ukraine Referendum. And I absolutely hope with all my being that your last sentence will be true and that we are shot of you and your ilk forever. Losers and whiners.

    • rod robertson

      Basically because you are lazy and have sat on your bahookies allowing 30 years of Neo Con idiots to take over the asylum in Westminster.
      You want a say ,form a political party get some traction like SNP.

      • Doggie Roussel

        There are over 50 non-representative Scots in that Westminster asylum that you refer to …. and the sooner we are shot of them, the better !

        • Jambo25

          And only 533 English MPs. We Scots have obviously got you outnumbered.

          • Doggie Roussel

            You halfwit !… our 533 English MPs have absolutely no say in what goes on in that make-believe institution in Holyrood… you Scots have your brains buried somewhere below your belts… get real, for God’s sake…

            • scotcanadien

              At least we have some brains. English clowns like you have f1ck all. And at least Holyrood is governed by politicians who have an overall majority, not like the Zoo in London which is full of chimpanzees, sloths or dinosaurs.

              • Wessex Man

                Get out of bed and say that you half-witted fool!

              • Michele Keighley

                You are disgusting

                • scotcanadien

                  I presume you also think Doggie bendover is disgusting too?

          • Alexsandr

            but the scottish have skewed the westminster parliament, giving Labour majorities against the wishes of the English. The voting on purely English matters -education, health etc. If Scotland vote No then the West lothian question and the Barnet Formula need revisiting.

            • Derick Tulloch

              Could you perhaps help us out with a few references to those occasions when the Scots have given Labour majorities when England didn’t vote Labour?

              • Wessex Man

                Every single minute of every single hour of every single Meeting of the Labour Cabinet 1997-2000, including the Devolution of Scotlabnd and Wales and the English Regions and that’s just as it’s written up, as you well know!

            • terregles2

              In 1997 Blair won 419 seats. He had a majority in parliament of 167 seats. Without the 56 Scottish seats he would still have had a landslide victory. Still the myth persists that Scotland forces a Labour government on England

              • Inverted Meniscus

                Equally, without Scotland’s 41 Labour MPs the Conservatives would now enjoy a clear majority at Westminster. The mathematics cuts both ways.

            • Jambo25

              No. Scottish MPs have only swung election results a couple of times since WW2 and then only marginally. England nearly always gets the government it voted for. That is not the case about 50% of the time for Scotland.Check electoral results since 1945. The one valid complaint that people in England have had, recently, is that Scottish Labour MPs should not have voted for variable HE fees in 2004. The initial post-Dearing vote on HE fees was in 1998 when there was no Scottish Parliament so Scottish MPs not only had a right but a duty to vote. The last vote; putting fees up to £9,000 pa was completely unaffected by Scottish MPs. Scotland, since WW2 has had hundreds of laws, parliamentary orders and other regulations wished on it by essentially English majorities.

    • Doggie Roussel

      Spot on… JonBW !

    • scotcanadien

      Why didn’t you ask for a vote in the Ukraine’s Referendum? That would have had the same validity.

      • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

        Hardly! Don’t be so obtuse.

        • scotcanadien

          You are the obtuse one wanting a vote in an election in which you have claim to vote, just like in Ukraine. Maybe you wanted a vote in the Quebec Referendum too?

          • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

            I don’t actually give a toss, to be honest. I just think that suggesting that England is no more relevant to Scotland than it is to Ukraine (or Quebec) is a really stupid comment.

            • Wessex Man

              You have to make alowances for idiots like this person, they become confused playing computer games all day.

      • xDemosthenesx

        The levels of moronic trolling you are reaching is quite impressive, in a way. If you can’t see why England might have an interest in a union between England and another country then you need to slap yourself repeatedly in a dark room.

        • Wessex Man

          that’s one of his favourite pastimes!

      • Wessex Man

        What are you on about you half-wit? You want a vote in that as well do you?

        • scotcanadien

          “half-wit” “half-wit” “half-wit” “half-wit” “half-wit” “half-wit” “half-wit” “half-wit” The new original West Head Banger compliment. Did they kick you off the Telegraph? He doesn’t even understand English. Why don’t you come to our side of the pond and get a few lessons.

          • Wessex Man

            so you’ve changed location have you? months ago when you unfortunately first appeared here and I said what’s Scottish Independence got to do with Canada? you said you were residing in Scotland, has Alex Salmond kicked you out ?

            • scotcanadien

              Oh no I haven’t. I am still resident (and voter) in Scotland, although I occasionally have to visit arsehole country for research purposes. Quebec is my home on the other side of the pond where I will return next year.

              • Wessex Man

                ah, bring border control!

      • ArchiePonsonby

        Mark my words, this will run and run, just like the Quebec situation! What is it now, three referenda on separation, at ENORMOUS cost? The only result has been constant demands on the rest of Canada under threat of separation with the predictable result of the Quebec tail wagging the Canadian dog! Meanwhile companies flee the province turning it into a basket case.

        • scotcanadien

          Quebec a basket case? You should go and have a look at it. It is the most booming and richest of all the Canadian Provinces. Typical ignorant Englander.

          • ArchiePonsonby

            Richer than Alberta? Pull the other one!

    • terregles2

      You can form a political party that has in their manifesto Independence for England. If enough people vote for it then England will have independence. That is what we are doing in Scotland.
      I would love to see an independent England and have always been disappointed that nobody has campaigned for it.
      The union between Scotland and England in 1707 is a union that either country can choose to leave any time it likes.

      • Wessex Man

        Not when Blair and Brown refused to read the petition haned in to Downing Street in 2007, we can’t!

        • terregles2

          You will not get political change with petitions. Someone has to form a political party and when enough people vote for them they will be in power and they will be the ones that decide to refuse or accept petitions.
          Was UKIP not founded in 1993?. I may be wrong but think it was round about then.
          Look at how popular they have become in such a short space of time. I am sure if someone founded an English independence party they also could be popular and gain power.
          There are no problems only solutions. If you want political change you have to make it happen. That is what people living in Scotland are doing.

          • Wessex Man

            You’ll have to come down and advise us as to how the Devolution Act came about.

            • allymax bruce

              Why?
              Can’t you figure it out dor yourself?
              Cretin.

              • Wessex Man

                Are you Scotscanadian in disguise, no can’t be he’s too intelliegent.

                • allymax bruce

                  And you’re ‘intelliegent’ ?

                  Moron!

              • Wessex Man

                Erm, half-wit, you never had to put in a petition or effort, Gordon Brown and his fellow Labour Scottish Cabinet Ministers did it for you, as a matter what have you ever done for Scottish Independence, anything at all?

        • allymax bruce

          Get a life you clown; stop bleating-on about your pathetic voting rights, and do something about your own country.

          • Wessex Man

            Your not even original are you Allymax idiot? you wait for someone like terregles or Jambo25 to post a comment then copy it, how sad!

            • allymax bruce

              i am the only allymax bruce; absolutely original.
              You, on the other hand, are an ignorant cretin; that barely passes as the Village Idiot.

    • Makroon

      Actually, the more interesting question is – what is the use of a monarchy which refuses to stand up for the unity of it’s realm, because it is too frightened of losing it’s Scottish estates ?
      Our “crown prince” is great at sounding off about conservation of animals, but nary a word about conserving his United Kingdom.

      • Derick Tulloch

        The United Kingdom will remain as the 1603 Union of Crowns is not what we are voting on. Dissolution of the 1707 political union doesn’t affect that.
        There is a wider question as to the function and powers of the Head of State, but that is for another day

      • Michele Keighley

        You – the people of Britain – took away the rights and privileges of the monarch going so far as murdering one and fighting a civil war to curb the rights of any monarch to interfere with parliament. You got what you wanted and called it democracy.

        You cannot now complain that the monarchy does not ‘stand up for the unity of it’s realm’ when your ancestors have made it impossible for them to do so.

      • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

        Being unelected, the monarchy does not involve itself in trying to influence or undermine the People’s democratic choices. That’s what the government is for. And, indeed, referendums.

        Crown prince? What an strange idiom. Why don’t you just call him Prince Charles, or the Prince of Wales?

  • FF42

    The problem with the No campaign is that they are not making a positive case for the benefits of Union for Scotland. There are many:

    A shared currency with no transaction costs or risks; a single market with one system of regulation; bank deposits guaranteed by an institution with a track record; more reliable pensions; easier for English companies to employ Scottish workers; easier for Scottish companies to sell in the rest of the UK; cheaper food bills and more. This represents a lot of wealth that Scotland would be giving up to become independent.

    Against all those, there are no equivalent benefits to independence. None at all. The problem is, you start saying you will lose this and that and it will all be very expensive and difficult. People’s eyes glaze over. Independence has a simple message that you cannot argue with: let’s be masters of our own ship.

    I think Unionists have to go back to back to the Better Together theme. Yes, independence is fine, but we’re beyond that. How do we work better with our nearest and most important neighbours? We won’t come up with a better arrangement than the one we have already. Let’s make it work better.

    The Unionist vision competes with the Independence vision. Neither is right or wrong. It depends on how you see the world. But I would say the Unionist vision is the more outward looking, aspirational vision. But the case needs to be made.

    • Derick Tulloch

      ‘More reliable pensions’ In the UK! You are joking aren’t you
      I used to have a final salary pension.
      Thanks for nothing Gordon Brown

      UK state pension replacement rate for average earners 37%
      OECD replacement rate for average earners 67%

      • Wessex Man

        Derick, just which country does Gordon Brown live and always has, it wasn’t just you that had your pension wrecked by him. Let’s stick to reasonable debate, he has much to answer for if only he would along with Tony Blair.

  • terregles2

    While unionists were giving Alex Salmond all their attention and all their criticism they failed to realise that the YES campaign was never really only about Alex Salmond and the SNP.
    There have been meetings for months now throughout Scotland in Community Centres. Libraries, Colleges, Universities, Town Halls etc. Both the NO and YES campaigners at these meetings have been listened to and the facts and figures that they have offered have been checked by individual people. There has never been such an involvement in any political issue before in Scotland.
    The YES campaign is now a movement made up of people from differing backgrounds and different political aspirations.
    The NO vote thought that all they had to do was discredit Alex Salmond to halt the wish for Scottish independence. It looks like they may well have been wrong.

    • Shinsei1967

      By “facts” you mean things like Scotland will have a sterling currency union.

      Which simply isn’t a fact.

      Which means that all other “facts” deriving from this – that Scottish banking will be underwritten by the Bank of England, that Scotland will benefit from the UK’s low interest rates etc – are also simply not facts.

      • rod robertson

        Like all naysayers ,especially those abiding outwith Scotland you just do not get it ,or have any answers.
        Those that will give us the YES Vote are not interested in the technical lies of you unionists.
        Threats about currency ,invasion ,companies fleeing Scotland , Russia invading no EU ,no NATO , No membership of UN are just laughed at ,much like your comments on threads like these.

        • Doggie Roussel

          Literacy is obviously not high on the agenda of the new Scottish utopia…

          • terregles2

            Doggie you haven’t told us yet the location in Glasgow Central station of the anti English graffiti. The duty station manager that I spoke to had never seen any. You must tell me where it is and I will pass on the information.

            • Kitty MLB

              You actually asked did you, had a feeling you
              might do that 🙂

              • terregles2

                I know the station staff quite well Kitty and I usually have a chat with people I meet every day. Glasgow is such a small city it is easy to meet the same people quite frequently.
                If I thought anyone had written anything nasty about any nation in my city I would indeed take steps to have it removed,
                I mentioned to the station manager that someone had complained about anti English graffiti and we was a bit puzzled. He had never seen or heard of any.
                The station staff are taking quite a bit of pride in Central at the moment with the Glasgow hosting of the Commonwealth games. They would deal with any graffiti if it was there.

                • Wessex Man

                  course you do, I bet you have a cup of tea and scone every single day with them even if you arn’t travelling.

                • Kitty MLB

                  English Breakfast Tea and Scones from Devon.

                • terregles2

                  Although Devon scones and cream are delicious eating them every day would be too many calories. Once a week perhaps.

                • Makroon

                  Just make sure the scones aren’t from the People’s Soviet of Cornwall.

                • terregles2

                  No scones too fattening.

                • Wessex Man

                  Oh no, I bet you go to the Gym before you go to work as well!

                • terregles2

                  Are you sure we have never met on one of your Scottish trips.?
                  I do go to the gym but at lunch time.

                • Wessex Man

                  Then we may well have, I find it the bestway to keep the weight off, You haven’t said yet when you want me up to doorstep with you.

                • terregles2

                  Just tell me when you want to come and I will arrange time off work. I will have to keep an eye on you though in case you write any nasty anti English graffiti then tell Doggie where you saw it written.

                • Wessex Man

                  My dear, how sad that you would think I would do anthing like that! I can’t make May for obvious reasons and the first week of June is out after celebrations but I’m yours after that just say when and where you want me.

                • Kitty MLB

                  Hmmm! the quiet ones are the worse, we never know. It might be a cunning plot. Oh don’t forget me dear dormouse, I shall
                  be venturing into the bleak foreign wilderness of Scotland as well. Someone needs to protect Englishmen from these tough
                  Scottish women. In days of olde they used to wear the intestines of those they defeated around the waste like a belt,
                  and unfairly its the men who are thought of as brave warriors.

                • allymax bruce

                  Hmmm; you should know!
                  Why are yoos engerlish always complaining?

                • Kitty MLB

                  Ally usually speaks to the Latin bit flowing through the veins,
                  he would have remembered.

                • allymax bruce

                  No, enough is enough; no more cursory/customary sleights of Scots And Scotland!

                  But you think it’s ok for Fergus Pickering to slander Scots & Scotland with scurrilous myth-making?
                  And, you think it’s ok for your ignorant imbecile friend Wessex Man to constantly deride Scots, Scotland, and anyone who supports iScotland; Ally speaks of the Passion flowing through his veins.

                • Kitty MLB

                  And the Ally that speaks of the passion flowing through his veins, introduced me to the beautiful and tragic Madeleine of
                  Valois and the handsome and the much maligned gentleman
                  who will become her husband, for the shortest of times.
                  No one but Ally ( whose soul I would recognise, if it were here ) could have introduced me to her.

                • komment

                  Leave Wessexman alone Alymax, he is doing a great job for the YES campaign, let’s have more of his recycled rubbish.

                • allymax bruce

                  kermit, for you, I will leave him alone.

                • Kitty MLB

                  I am coming too, but mainly to buy some lovely Shetland Sweaters ( the most warm, natural and cosy in the world)
                  Oh, and some tweed for trousers, not forgetting Salmon and venison. Might also visit my friend on Mull and do some walking. Wessex Man will think I am no use at all – instead of battling I will be doing my own thing and no graffiti not even on the odd mountain.

                • allymax bruce

                  ‘Shetland sweaters’. Make sure you get sheeps wool; you have been known to confuse wool with fur.
                  I remember you from the Scotchman 4 years ago!

                • Kitty MLB

                  Hello Ally, hope you had a nice Easter, I never get fur and Wool mixed up ( although both equally warm, but fur should remain on animals ) and you do not know me from Adam,
                  although that should be Eve.

                • allymax bruce

                  Oh, I think I do; Eve. Adam told me all about you.

                • Makroon

                  Don’t you mean Salmon and Sturgeon ?

                • Kitty MLB

                  Oh yes indeed, I shall return home with a fish platter, with a Cameron jellyfish and some
                  delectable and delicious smoked kippers
                  to add to the platter when I return.

                • Wessex Man

                  You’re a naughty girl Kitty!

                • Kitty MLB

                  No, I am not always on my best behaviour. And I don’t know
                  what’s wrong with my poetry loving Cetlic Warrior above,
                  but he has been taking a swipe at me with his sword several
                  times and yet he has never done it before- maybe this is an imposter. And don’t believe what he says about that Adam
                  a bit of a twit if you ask me- could not tell the difference between a apple and a pear. Eve should have dumped him.

                • Wessex Man

                  We’ll all have a good laugh about this after September Kitty.

                • allymax bruce

                  He has inside info’ from Westminster security, that he’s manipulating. He has probably hacked your phone.

                • Wessex Man

                  How did you know that?

                • allymax bruce

                  Coz ye’r a creep weasel ignorant rude scumbag; that’s how I knew it.

                • Kitty MLB

                  Oh so you never insult England or the English do you,
                  well the other Ally might not have, but your giving it a go. Are you his evil twin ? much preferred the other and you talk to me as if I am a stranger… thanks for that. You
                  will not notice but I have been defending you over Easter
                  but never mind. I am just English so it doesn’t count.

                • allymax bruce

                  Why are you prevaricating? I am Ally; and there’s no need for you to be comparing me with anyone, or any thing like an ‘evil twin’. To me, that’s only you exacerbating your attempts to deflect my status referred-to in my previous comment; that while you are ‘mostly’ polite and courteous to me, (apart from your horrid comment), you partake in sleights and slander of my, Scotland’s First Minister Alex’ Salmond, and my, Scotland’s Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon? The smeering coming from your compatriots is severely grievous. We, Scotland, don’t do that to you, so why do you think you are allowed to do it to us?

                • Kitty MLB

                  Oh for goodness sake, I am hardly polite about Cameron,
                  and I have APOLOGISED- do you want blood ? I shall write a letter to your first
                  minister and deputy first minister apologising for my rude
                  comments. And I am ALWAYS polite and courteous to you,
                  and have never made a horrid comment. Maybe you have
                  forgotten that you made me a honorary Scottish person because I have a Scottish sense of humour, and you and
                  I generally get on well – but never mind, besides you will just
                  disagree.

                • allymax bruce

                  Actually, Kitty, I will accept that letter of apology you cite you will write to Scotland’s First Minister, Alex’ Salmond; if you do that, it will prove to me you really are the genuine Kitty that is a wonderful and sincere person. My friend.

                • Wessex Man

                  You certainly know how to handle this half-wit Kitty!

                • Wessex Man

                  please, please watch the blood pressure, your rants against anything English are the rantings of a child or a drunken old fool which one are you?

                • LeoLeo

                  “The smearing coming from your compatriots is severely grevious. We, Scotland, don’t do that to you, so why do you think you are allowed to do it to us?”

                  You are joking! The Nats smear anyone who questions their absurd statements about an independent Scotland. Or asks any difficult questions. Or was educated at Eton. Or thinks the UK should continue to subsidise an independent Scotland. Or was born English and has the “impertinence” to imagine they have the right to an opinion on such an important issue.

            • Doggie Roussel

              The Actual location is revealed in a very good book, Faintheart by Charles Jennings which is an extremely funny and well-written expose of Scotland and the Scottish.

              I heartily recommend it.

              • terregles2

                Oh so you yourself did not actually see any graffiti anti English or otherwise written on a wall at Glasgow Central. station
                Glad we got that one sorted out.

              • allymax bruce

                Does it have your phone number underneath it?

                • terregles2

                  I think it was published before the year 2000. I would suggest that Doggie might like to read Blossom by Lesley Riddoch but perhaps it would be too relevant to the year 2014 for his taste.

          • komment

            In your case neither is comprehension, no point being able to read if you can’t understand what you read.
            That’s what comes of a diet of NO campaign junk food.

        • Derick Tulloch

          Actually having speakers for No literally being laughed at at public meetings, when they dare to attend one, seems to be common. It certainly was the case at one I attended recently organized by Stirling University students. There was 250ish in the audience. And the No speakers were being laughed at openly by the audience. When that happens, the game’s a bogey.

          • Makroon

            You should go to a UKIP meeting and make the case for the EU, and then see how much change you get from that.
            The people who attend these meetings are political junkies, who won’t be the ones who decide the issue.

            • Wessex Man

              Have you been to a UKip meeting? Junkies we are not, like a pint though!

              • Derick Tulloch

                Fair enough!

          • komment

            Yes the games a bogey, perhaps. But surely the NO campaign have painted themselves as the bogey-men by their negativity. The NO vision is exactly what it says on the label, a NO vision.

        • LeoLeo

          The man in charge of the EU has said that Scotland would not “automatically” be able to rejoin. All new EU entrants are expected to commit to the Euro and joining Schengen (which would incidentally mean we would have checkpoints on the UK/Scotland border). The leaders of all major UK parties have said they do not support a currency union between the UK and an independent Scotland. In what way are these “technical lies”….? To the rest of us they just sound like facts.

          • Derick Tulloch

            Hmmm. A Shetland perspective on ‘not automatically’ in the EU. Which is a load of cobblers, but let’s run with it.

            May 2016, Independence Day. Scotland not in the EU. All those hundreds of Spanish, Portugese, French, Dutch and Danish fishing vessels will be required to leave Scottish waters, That Day. We’re gonna need more fishery cruisers. And fishing boats. I can live with that!

            • LeoLeo

              Hmmmm. It may be a load of cobblers but until you can explain why it’s a load of cobblers I’m going to believe the man in charge of the EU when he says it’s not a load of cobblers.

              Oh, and even if negotiations are completed in 18 months and May 2016 is Independence Day you’re not going to be expelling any fishing boats from Scottish waters unless your new government is prepared to dramatically increase the SNP’s proposed defence budget.

              • JPJ2

                “The man in charge of the EU”-presumably you mean Barroso- has no power at all when it come to deciding who is in the EU

                • LeoLeo

                  He seems to have a much stronger grasp of the process to be followed and what the requirements are than Mr Salmond does.

        • Inverted Meniscus

          Nevertheless, he is correct. There will not be a currency union between the UK and Scotland.

      • scotcanadien

        Why do you torment yourself. Scotland WILL use the £ whether you and England like it or not. Scotland doesn’t need YOU, YOU need Scotland.

        • pjh64

          Feel free to use the pound, dollar, euro, groat of shekel. The choice will be yours.

          Down here in the south of England, we’ll be sorry for several minutes to see you go , but I expect we’ll somehow scrape by without the oil money and move on.

          Good luck!

          • terregles2

            Thank you for your good wishes. I am sure both Scotland and England will do well after independence.

            • pjh64

              Quite agree. Independence is the best thing that could possibly happen to Scotland, and to a similar degree, England too.

              Certainly the Union has run its course and needs to be dissolved. A vote in England for independence can’t come soon enough.

          • Kate

            That’s nice. Thanks.

        • Alexsandr

          any country can use the £. Panama uses the US$. but unless a country has its own currency or a currency union, it will find borrowing impossible. And to set up a currency union you need the agreement of all parties. You cannot bully your way into a union. And a RUK government would have to think what its electorate would say about signing up for a union.
          Anyway, a country in a currency union is not truly independant, especuially when its a minor partner. So Scotlands fiscal policy (notably PSBR) would be decided by a foreign country. I am at a loss to understand why scotland wants this.

          • scotcanadien

            What a load of absolute bollocks. Scotland can use the £ without rUK’s permission WITHOUT a currency Union. The £ is an International tradeable currency therefore ANY country ANYWHERE can use it as its currency and there is nothing that rUK could do to stop it. You should read Finance 101 before you come here and make a fool of yourself. You’ll be telling me next that Panama isn’t independent, or Germany, or France et al who all use the Euro.

            • xDemosthenesx

              Dear lord, it is not hard to grasp. You can use the pound but why on earth would you want to since you won’t have any say in what the BOE does? See the Eurocrisis disaster for what happens in that scenario. Just create a currency. Painful at first, but at least it will be yours and free.

              I fervently hope that the Scots vote yes and that the rUK aggressively defends its interests – but I fear that I will be disappointed on both.

              • terregles2

                Don’t be so negative.

              • scotcanadien

                Couldn’t give two ficks what the BoE does. Scotland wouldn’t be following its modus operandi merely using £ outside CU as a means of exchange, barter …. WM is taking you lot into penury after your next housing bubble bust in 2020; Scotland will then RE-value £ to a £Scots. You’re another who needs simple financial lessons.

                • xDemosthenesx

                  So you suppose that borrowing money on the financial markets using a currency that you have no control over will work out well for you? As in how well it worked for Spain and Greece? Or do you think that independent Scotland will somehow be immune from borrowing? It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that an independent Scotland and the rUK will diverge in strategy, probably pretty quickly.

                  Don’t know what your small man syndrom anger is all about, I cannot wait for the Scots to push off – there is actually very little downside for the rUK.

                • scotcanadien

                  “Don’t know what your small man syndrom anger is all about,”

                  The only small men I see here are English, always projecting their own failings, and by God they have them in Spades, onto the more intelligent of the world’s ethnic groups.

            • Wessex Man

              oh dear frothing at the mouth again, you really are a nasty unpleasant piece of offal arn’t you?

              • allymax bruce

                The Village Idiot blurbs!

                • Wessex Man

                  you don’t have to keep putting yourself down so allymax idiot, I’ll do it for you.

                • allymax bruce

                  You coundn’t put an imbecile down; all you do is post stupid ignorant comments about other commenters. You never talk about anything to do with the article; you’re the idiot.

                • Wessex Man

                  I do wish you would learn to read my comments before passing such comments, perhaps with one eye shut before your first drink.

          • terregles2

            I am at a loss to understand why anyone would think that Scotland is best governed by the incompetent rabble in Westminster.

          • Kate

            I guess we (supporters of Scottish independence) want to stay in the £ initially as it’s easiest and simplest. There’s going to be a lot of work to do sorting stuff out, and it would be good if we could put off our final currency decision for a few years. Like Ireland, Australia, etc. did when they left Westminster. Seems sensible. In the longer term I’d imagine we’d either have our own currency or join the Euro, but who knows what the political landscape will look like in 2020 or 2030, so the decision that needs to be made will be made dependent on the circumstances of the time.

        • Wessex Man

          don’t torture yourself so, go and have another sherbet and a little lie down.

          • scotcanadien

            Watch it Westie Head Banger, You’re now stealing my best lines.

            • Wessex Man

              Oh come on that was just a throwaway!

        • Timple

          Can the rest of the UK tell the Scots they can’t expect to share the £ but at the same time tell them they must share the £ debt (all £900 billion of it)? Seems a bit inconsistent.

          • allymax bruce

            Everything the Union owns; a proportional amount is Scotland’s.
            The Bahamas, the Provincial rights to Canadian coastal waters, all the small island outposts, all the foreign embassies, Falklands oil, the BoE, even Trident!
            Typical Westminster boorishness for Osborne, Balls&Co to try bluff and bluster threats.

            • Wessex Man

              And all the debts associated with all those things, my dear mate Allymax idiot.

            • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

              No, you’re completely wrong on that one, I’m afraid.

              I’m frequently surprised at the number of people who seem to assume that Scotland is a separate country from England, that just happens to have a combined parliament. That’s a misapprehension.

              Since the Act of Union, the country is the United Kingdom. England and Scotland are merely administrative divisions of it, as are Livingstone and Derby. Foreign embassies, Trident missiles, and so on are the property of the United Kingdom. Scotland, being an administrative region of the UK, has no greater claim on such property than does Derby. Or Galloway. Or Blackpool.

              The same reason applies to Scottish assumptions of being automatically admitted as a member of the EU. Scotland is not, and never has been, an EU member, only an administrative region of the EU member known as the UK.

              The same could be argued about North Sea oil, I’m afraid.

              For the record, Canada is an independent country. The UK has no “provincial rights” over its coastal waters. Prior to independence, it was a dominion, being an autonomous colony. I’m not sure Britain has had any rights to its coastal waters since the nineteenth century.

              • allymax bruce

                No, you are completely wrong; regardless of what you’d like to think!
                I’m right, and there’s no argument about it. Why? Because I know more about this than you; and I’m not going to waste my time explaining all over again to you.

                You must now resign yourself to be associated with The Village Idiot (wessexman).

                • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

                  I really doubt you know more about it than I do. And in my experience, there are few situations about which there is truly “no” argument; especially in matters of law.

                  I would also add that people whose chief method of argument consists of hubristic assertion and insolence rarely know much about anything.

                • allymax bruce

                  It doesn’t matter to me, that you doubt, all I have done is replicate your ‘hubristic’ assertions, from your original comment to me. As for ‘insolence’; why are you resorting to insults, rather than argument?
                  Moreover, if you think posting reply comments, (on a political debating forum), that consist of nothing other than rebuttal, hubristic assertion, and pomp (without the circumstance), I would also add that you don’t even know who you are; nor what your arguments should be.

          • Inverted Meniscus

            No it is not. Scotland is perfectly welcome to use Sterling for as long as it wants to. Indeed, there is absolutely nothing the UK could do to stop Scotland doing so. What is not on the table however is a currency union between the UK and Scotland. That would require the UK taxpayer, via the treasury, to underwrite all newly issued public debt without having any control over the amount borrowed or its term. Scotland would not want to underwrite the debt of a foreign country and unsurprisingly, neither would the UK.

          • Kate

            No. No they can’t.

          • http://www.CaerphillyPreserves.co.uk/ No Good Boyo

            The pound is the currency of the UK.If Scotland wishes to leave the UK, that’s up to them, but, as a new foreign country, it has no right to continue using the currency Without controls over Scotland that would essentially invalidate any concept of independence, Scotland would be free to spend, spend, spend, leaving the Bank of England (that is, the English taxpayers) to pick up the bill. This is precisely what happened in the Eurozone. Basically, it involves a lot of risks for England, and few benefits.

            Much of the national debt has been incurred and spent in Scotland. Scotland has higher levels of benefits and healthcare spending than England, and receives substantially more than it contributes in taxation. Why shouldn’t Scotland pick up that part of the bill, at least?

        • ArchiePonsonby

          I rather suspect that the rest of the UK might want a say on whether you are able to use the pound or no! Just saying.

          • scotcanadien

            The rest of the UK should only have a say if there were to be a formal Currency Union. (But you won’t get a vote on it anyway from WM). If there is NO Currency Union and Scotland uses the £ WITHOUT a Currency Union rUK has no say in the matter since £ is an International Tradeable Currency which any entity can use willy nilly.

            FFS how many times do you lot need to be told something before it finally registers?

      • terregles2

        With respect unless you have been at several debates you cannot really know what questions are being asked nor indeed what the answers are.
        Scotland is as capable as any other country in the world of having self government. We will rise to any challenges and problems that we will face in the future. The idea that Westminster is better able than Holyrood to govern Scotland is complete nonsense.

        • Inverted Meniscus

          Agreed but it cannot impose the costs of transition onto the UK taxpayer.

          • terregles2

            Why would you assume that would happen ?. The EWNI negotiating team might not be as weak and innefectual as you fear.
            Although in fairness I wouldn’t have much faith in Westminster politicians either.

            • Inverted Meniscus

              On the basis that they will be representing 91.7% of the UK population, I would he so. That however is entirely irrelevant. The point is that Scottish residents will be, quite reasonably exercising their democratic rights to vote on whether or not to leave the UK. The huge transition costs arising from that are not a matter for negotiation they are solely for the account of Scottish taxpayers. That is completely separate from a per capita division of assets and liabilities of the existing UK. The taxpayers of England, Wales and Northern Ireland did not initiate this process and thus should not and must not be saddled with costs incurred solely at the behest of Scottish residents. I must say I find this constant ‘subject to negotiation’ language to be wholly misleading and evidence of a total unwillingness by the SNP to confront vital issues for fear of scaring the voters.

              • terregles2

                The SNP are quite happy to confront any issue they are asked about. The YES campaign now though has more non SNP members than SNP members. The YES campaign is now a movement of cross party campaigners. The YES campaign website is happy to answer any question about anything.
                I cannot understand your fixation with costs that will be dealt with at the negotiations. I know that Cameron and company are pretty useless and ineffectual but what makes you so sure he will not protect the interests of EWNI. Why would he agree to anything that was unfair to EWNI. I know he is very unimpressive but others will be there to hopefully keep him right.
                Personally I am not worried about what it will cost Scotland. It will be money well spent to prevent the useless Westminster parliament from wasting the revenue that we send to them from Scotland. They have squandered all the oil money for the last 40 years. If you say that EWNI will not pay any tramsition costs how do you know that the Westminster negotiation team will not say the same thing.?
                Try to be more positive. I know it is difficult when the UK Prime Minister is a bit of a drip but do try. It will all work out ok. Many countries have negotiated their break up with Britain in the past. there is nothing new about it. In fact the UK government has great experience in doing break ups. It is our first time so Westminster will probably be better at it than us and probably get you a good deal.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  You seem to be confusing the distribution of assets and liabilities which would be subject to negotiation probably on a per capita basis and the issue of transition costs which will not be the subject of negotiation. The other countries you allude to did not share air traffic control facilities, customs and revenue, etc etc etc with the UK. These will all have to be split at the sole behest of Scottish residents and they must carry the attendant costs. The costs must not be allocated to the UK and are not subject to negotiation which you seem to believe is defined as: “it will all work out fine in the end”. Some of us feel forced to take a slightly more realistic and worldly view of what will be a very bitter and divisive process.

                • terregles2

                  Well I would agree that Westminster are not behaving very well at the moment. Their latest claims that Scotland is only entitled to 8% of the oil in the North sea is not doing much to build an amicable separation.
                  It is silly to try and speculate what way everything will be split. It will be decided by legal experts not keen amateurs,
                  I would not worry about England losing out on anything Westminster has a long history of dominating other countries and getting the maximum wealth from them.
                  I am sure though that ulitmately common sense will prevail and a fair and honest settlement will be reached.
                  Personally I would not mind losing a bit on any deal. It would be worth it to get rid of Trident from Scotland.

              • allymax bruce

                Nah, that ‘cost’ to negotiate the Dissolution of UK assets is built-in to any future expenditure/costing by the Westminster government in office. Same as the decommissioning of the out of use oil rigs, and nuke power stations in Scotland; Westminster has already ‘factored-in a cost for both to happen Same applies to Dissolution negotiations. Indeed, Westminster came out and said exactly that 6 months ago; in their address to The City.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Nah to use your vernacular. Those budgets were not drawn up on the basis that Scotland would become independent. There should be a per capita division of assets and liabilities but all transition costs will be for the account of Scotland. How could you possibly accept such a dishonourable and dishonest arrangement whereby UK taxpayers were forced to pick up the cost of Scottish residents exercising their democratic rights .? By all means vote for independence but the costs and consequences good or bad are yours alone. You would not, I hope, buy a new car and then send the bill to an unknown resident of England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

                • allymax bruce

                  “How could you possibly accept such a dishonourable and dishonest
                  arrangement whereby UK taxpayers were forced to pick up the cost of
                  Scottish residents exercising their democratic rights .”
                  You/we paid for the bank bail-out, didn’t you? Don’t be so naive.

                • Wessex Man

                  I rather think it’s you being naive.

                • Kitty MLB

                  The type of answer I knew you would give. Being the chap
                  of integrity that you are Ally.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  I really hope you are being sarcastic.

                • Kitty MLB

                  Whoops ! wrong thread- don’t ask, its one of those days.

                • allymax bruce

                  I love you too, Kitty.
                  Now remember and write that letter.

                • Kitty MLB

                  Its done, my word is my bond.
                  I still disagree with him and don’t trust him,
                  but I shall do so politely.
                  And by the way they will either think I am
                  bonkers or a spy from Cameron, but never
                  mind.

                • allymax bruce

                  You have my word I’ll never doubt you again, Kitty. I’m so glad we can put that behind us; God bless you & yours. Ally

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  Yes of Scottish banks and I am not naive enough to want to do it again although that is entirely irrelevant to this issue. The costs of separation will be wholly for the people of Scotland. You will incur them and you will have to pay them. You would not buy a car and then send the bill to your neighbours and the same principle applies here.

                • allymax bruce

                  We, iScotland, wouldn’t have bailed the losing baks out in the first place; why do you think RBS are getting ‘squeaky bum time’? In-deed, we, iScotland wouldn’t have let the banks run-wild with their FSA UK Westminster Public financed wild-cards in the Casino banking system!
                  iScotland won’t be sending you any bills for what we take-on as an Independent Nation, but you & us, will be paying for the Dissolution of said compiled Insitutions.

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  So you incur these transition costs without any reference to UK taxpayers and yet we have to pick up those costs? No. The costs are entirely yours. Your vote your bill.

                • allymax bruce

                  The UK ‘incurs these Transition costs’; what is it about this fact, (UK Westminster gov’ statement to The City 6 months ago), you don’t understand? Just get used to it; you lost!

                • Inverted Meniscus

                  You have chosen to vote for independence and the rest of the UK will have no say in the matter. The costs of splitting up public institutions are therefore Scotland’s alone. If you bought a car you would not expect your neighbour to pick up part of the cost. The same principle applies here. The costs associated with independence are yours.

    • HJ777

      But they have successfully discredited Alex Salmond, as you acknowledge.

      When he is asked any question for which he has no adequate answer, his stock response is “scaremongering” , “bulllying” etc.

      And the realisation will slowly sink in.

  • BigAl

    It is going to be messy whoever ‘wins’ as there will be about 50% of the population who are aggrieved at the result.

    • Doggie Roussel

      And we all know about the Scotch perception of grievance, don’t we ?

      • John Banks

        Nice to see another ignorant loser on the comment boards..

        • Doggie Roussel

          Please expand your answer… on my many visits to Scotland I have always perceived a grudge against the English and a constant Scotch inferiority complex…

          I have always put this down to the Scots having to endure longer winter nights, a never-ending drizzle and mist and a diet of porridge, haggis, some fine whiskeys and many deep-fried Mars Bars and Irn Bru.

          The screech of bagpipes, as the epitome of Scotch culture, the incoherent but sublime ramblings and poetry of Burns… although his realisation of the cultural restrictions of Scotland drove him to an early death from a surfeit of alcohol and sexual indulgence… which have yet to be acknowledged.

          My lasting memory of Scotland is the graffiti daubed on the wall of Glasgow Central, when alighting from a train; F**k the English

          That just says it all….

          • John Banks

            Keep it up, you’re only making yourself look more and more like what I said above.

            • Wessex Man

              no he’s not, he can’t be a loser because he won’t be allowed to vote in the referendum.

              He has the exact same rights as you to post a comment and his comments prove that his experience in Scotland is the same as many other English people and for you to deny it says more about you than him!

              • scotcanadien

                Why don’t you f1ck off and go campaigning for your Fascist friend. Maybe get some credibility, at least in England.

              • Maidmarrion

                I take it you are one of the misguided to whom I refer.

                • Wessex Man

                  I don’t know, who were the misguided?

              • allymax bruce

                You’re another loser.

                • Wessex Man

                  are you my mate then?

                • allymax bruce

                  Yeh, sure!
                  I’d happily take you out to get slaughtered!

                • Wessex Man

                  oh dear your childish remarks shame Scotland!

                • allymax bruce

                  Offer still stands; let me know when you ‘come to do our bidding’. And, stop stalking all the Scots commenters, you weirdo, you come across as a online groomer!

          • scotcanadien

            The largest inferiority complexes are found amongst the English. Why do you think they constantly try to denigrate other ethnic groups and races? It’s called Projection. A person projects onto other persons his own lack of self esteem or other desirable traits he lacks because it makes him feel good. Scots have no inferiority complex, if anything they have a superiority complex, at least towards the English. And that is what upsets them.
            For example the French, Germans et al like the Scots don’t give two flying f1cks about the English, because the latter are unimportant.

            • Doggie Roussel

              Wellington and Nelson gave the French a thoroughly good thrashing, which put them firmly in their place and has never been reciprocated and Churchill gave the genocidal Germans (Nazis) an even bigger hammering and, as a result of which, they now seek to control Europe by stealth.

              You, Scotch, meanwhile, are little but a sideshow on the European stage and soon to be transported by your presumptive arrogance to the level of, say, Gabon or Outer Mongolia.

            • Wessex Man

              hur hur hur, your wit knows no start, you half-witted fool, your grasp of the subject in hand is at best based on hate not reason, Jambo25 and terregles2 are actually prepared to put forward reasoned arguments for Scottish independence, which I agree with even if Jambo has a bit of a rant occaionally but you? You are better off in the playground!

            • ArchiePonsonby

              Quebec much?

          • Maidmarrion

            If you treat any nation to your particular vision of them , I think you will find that they will show less restraint than the scots .
            I would take out lots of travel insurance if I were you – it can cost plenty to have a broken anything fixed.
            And we all wait with baited breath for the exact location of the graffiti .
            I regularly travel via Central station – no graffiti have I seen indeed as stations go it is clean ,fresh and welcoming with a very helpful staff.
            You wouldn’t have the temerity to make such a thing up would you?
            I am saddened to see that there 11 misguided folk recommending your post .I assume these are folk who don’t and preferably won’t visit Scotland.

            • Michele Keighley

              Nice to know that there are some tourists who won’t be made to feel welcome. Oh well, some things never change. I was made to feel totally unwelcome when posted to Leuchars in the 60’s at the age of 17 so I know what it feels like. Makes a lasting impression when you are filthily abused just for your accent and you can’t understand why. I have never forgotten it and doubt I ever will.

          • allymax bruce

            “My lasting memory of Scotland is the graffiti daubed on the wall of Glasgow Central, when alighting from a train; F**k the English…”

            Does it have you phone number underneath it Doggie?

          • terregles2

            A surfeit of alcohol and sexual indulgence…!!!! …What’s not to like,

      • ArchiePonsonby

        “It is never difficult to tell the difference between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine”. P.G. Wodehouse.

  • Theuniondivvie

    ‘Also, of course, mildly misleading since sensible Unionists do not
    dispute the notion Scotland could – after an awkward period of
    adjustment – make a pretty decent fist of life after independence.’

    ‘Scottish Conservatives full of pessimistic idiots’ shock.

    Panelbase Sep.’13

    Q1. Do you agree or disagree
    with the following statement:
    “Scotland could be a successful,
    independent country”

    Cons
    No, I disagree – 83%
    Yes, I agree – 8%
    Don’t Know – 9%

    • alasdair buchanan

      Pretty accurate article . The once mighty Conservative & Unionist party in Scotland have behaved like ostriches with their collective heads stuck in the sand .The Yes campaign have , and still are , cultivating a mass grassroots campaign

      • Redrose82

        Hold on – it is the Labour party who have most to fear from a YES victory. A lot of us Conservative supporters see a lot of positives arising from such a result.

        • pjh64

          Exactly. Quite a percentage of we English are hoping and praying for a yes vote too.

        • Wessex Man

          Your lot saw a lot of positives in making Cameron leader and look where that got you!

          • Redrose82

            Well I didn’t. I voted for David Davis as I was a member of the Conservative party at the time. Since then I have become disillusioned by what has gone on under Cameron’s leadership. However, I do accept that he has been somewhat shackled by being in coalition with the LibDems and would like to see what he would do if unfettered by those idiots. One thing I do know is that, disappointing as he has been, he is an infinitely better prospect than the only other possible alternative – a Miliband led Labour government.

      • Doggie Roussel

        Let’s hope so… England should celebrate with a Bank Holiday, marking the date …

        • allymax bruce

          Haven’t yoos engerlish given the banks enough?

          • Wessex Man

            just do one.

            • allymax bruce

              Ha!
              What a pathetic teenage jibe; get lost, and get back to your GCSE homework.

              • Wessex Man

                hur hur hur you are side splitting!

  • WatTylersGhost

    If the Scotts vote “Yes”, Cameron will simply call another referendum, until a “No” is achieved. That is his EU loving way of holding these votes.

    • rod robertson

      I am afraid Cameron does not have enough soldiers in hid puny army to attempt such a tragedy.

    • pjh64

      Cameron will be laughing all the way to Westminster if the Scots vote “yes”. Labour will be the ones demanding a second vote.

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