Coffee House

Without Scotland, the UK would be poorer both culturally and spiritually

31 March 2014

12:46 PM

31 March 2014

12:46 PM

If Alex Salmond gets his way, this country will be rendered asunder. Once you cross the Tweed, you’ll be in a foreign land. The fact that Salmond is so keen to suggest that even after independence there’ll still be a ‘social union’ between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom suggests that he knows that people are disturbed by this idea.

But one of the puzzles of the Scottish referendum campaign is how reluctant politicians have been to make the emotional case for the Union. Instead, Better Together and the government have chosen to concentrate on a series of technocratic argument. This is why Nick Watt’s story about a senior government minister conceding that there would be a currency union if Scotland went independent has been so damaging to the No campaign.

[Alt-Text]


It is now, though, time to start making the emotional, positive case for the Union. Both Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom will be poorer if Salmond wins in September and I don’t just mean economically. We’d be poorer both spiritually and culturally.

For the next six months, those on both sides of the border who don’t want this country to be broken apart need to unashamedly raise their voices in defence of the United Kingdom.


More Spectator for less. Stay informed leading up to the EU referendum and in the aftermath. Subscribe and receive 15 issues delivered for just £15, with full web and app access. Join us.



Show comments
  • Jackthesmilingblack

    “Without Scotland, the UK would be poorer both culturally and spiritually”
    But it wouldn`t keep returning Labour governments. How about it Wales, Northern Ireland? You up for going it alone?
    Jack, Japan Alps

  • Hexhamgeezer

    Surely we can all get behind ‘Batter Together’ and agree on a common batter basis with enough flexibility for local taste/traditions?

  • Michael H Kenyon

    Less socialism, less carping, less chippiness, less money sent north and received gracelessly, less sentimentality, and an influx of the talent who decide they can’t face more of the foregoing: Scotland, please say “Yes” to independence for England’s benefit. We won’t miss the thuggish (and sometimes literally) welfare-junkiedom which is Scotland outside the nicer bits of countryside, Edinburgh, and the west end of Glasgow.

  • sunnydayrider

    How on earth can the UK be poorer young Jamsie? To be rid at last of these whinging, ungrateful, mean of spirit, English hating Ludites can surely only enrich the UK. The only down side I can see is having a despot led third world country aross the border. Still, a re-building of Hadrians wall, around 20 metres high should do it, and a few customs posts should sort that.

  • FF42

    As a Scot, I would say Scotland would be culturally and spiritually poorer too, if it separated. It’s like marriage. You don’t have to be in a union. But it’s a positive, optimistic thing to do.

    • Jambo25

      If we separated from rUK what would I, as a Scot be culturally or spiritually deprived of.?

      • Jambo25

        Still waiting on an answer FF42

  • Smithersjones2013

    For the next six months, those on both sides of the border who don’t
    want this country to be broken apart need to unashamedly raise their
    voices in defence of the United Kingdom.

    Oh god please don’t. I think most of us can do without 6 months of hysterical exaggerated patronising spin in favour of an outdated and broken political construct………..

  • asalord

    Well, one thing’s for sure: whatever the referendum result this “united” kingdom is finished.

    • anyfool

      It certainly is if you take into account, the Scottish Labour MPs running Better Together think that they can govern the country better from Westminster.
      At the back of it they resent that the people of Scotland voted for the SNP, they will punish you for your perceived disloyalty if they ever get back in power, either in the UK or if yes in an independent Scotland. ( you have been warned )
      Remember that Labour flooded the UK with Third World immigrants because the working class had the temerity to vote for Thatcher, these decisions were taken when the top of the then governing Labour party was mainly a Scottish affair.

  • Ron Kane

    The problem is that the SNP stated this would be a debate on the merits and not emotions. BT agreed to this strategy and then the SNP started putting up pictures of kids and telling people a no vote would be like kicking your granddaughter’s teeth in.

    Who would have thought the Nats would be underhanded eh?

    • Jambo25

      Really? I must have missed that bit of the campaign.

  • Denis_Cooper

    The author doesn’t seem to be getting a very positive response here.

    Could that be in some measure because certain prominent politicians in the party his magazine supports went out of their way to stir up unnecessary antagonism between the English and the Scots in an attempt to attract English voters?

  • BarkingAtTreehuggers

    in other news: Frankfurt becomes Europe’s first (and major) Renminbi trading hub. Surely Holyrood will value the attraction of that?

  • RavenRandom

    Agreed. We would no longer be British. We would be foreigners to each other. I don’t think that has fully sunk in yet. I imagine it will as polling day approaches.
    Time though for devo max for all of us, English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland. The UK should handle defence, foreign affairs and other UK wide issues.

    • asalord

      What’s wrong with being foreign. I have a cousin who has just become a Canadian citizen. I do not love him any the less.

      • RavenRandom

        It might be fine for you to not be British and Scottish. For others the long history of being British; that Yorkshire and London, that Cardiff and The Lake District and all the other places of Great Britain are also their country and will be lost, will mean something to them.
        That it doesn’t to you I respect. I know Scottish and English people that do care about being British as well. For them and for me, this talk of separation represents sadness and loss.

        • asalord

          I’m sure the people of Scotland, and England, saw their independence pre-1707 as very important to them. Many will have bitterly regretted the loss of their nation’s sovereignty, and for many that loss will have been compounded by the fact they they had no democratic say in the matter. Thankfully the people of Scotland are now, after three hundred years, being given the opportunity to express their feelings in a referendum. The people of England, Wales and Northern Ireland deserve the same chance.

          • RavenRandom

            “I’m sure the people of Scotland, and England, saw their independence pre-1707 as very important to them.”
            You’re certainly right. And now many people in Scotland like being British as well as Scottish. The same is true in England. For those of us that enjoy the British identity this is a sad time.
            Presumably you accept that as a valid position, as I accept your position as being valid.

      • transponder

        I bet he’s dual-national: they don’t do either/or any more. I know: I’m Canadian by the vagaries of fate, and British by birth and upbringing, and American by choice and mature consideration, through the path of marriage.

    • Jambo25

      I already feel that

  • asalord

    The people of Scotland [and England] did not want an incorporating union in 1707.
    At last the people of Scotland [and, hopefully soon, the people of England] are being given a vote on the issue.
    The union has lasted three hundred years largely because of the successful exploitation of innocent peoples around the world by Scots, Irish, Welsh and English under the auspices of the union flag and the British empire.
    That empire is, thankfully, long gone.
    Only British nationalists, wanting the continuation of nuclear weapons and wars abroad, desire the union to continue.
    The union is no longer required.
    The people of Scotland will vote Yes in September; not just to the benefit of Scotland but to all former members of the “united” kingdom.

    • Nicholas chuzzlewit

      I should be most grateful if you would explain to me and any other UK taxpayers of joining a currency union with Scotland and thereby be expected, without being asked, to underwrite the newly issued public debt of a foreign country while being unable to limit the amount borrowed by amount or term. I have sought an answer to this question from many independence supporters but no reply has been received. By the way, I suspect we are quite happy to manage any foreign exchanged translation risk accruing from trade with Scotland.

      • asalord

        Nicholas, you’re asking the wrong person/people.
        It’s the British nationalists in Westminster you should be asking.
        As a Yes supporter I don’t care whether there is or isn’t a currency union after a Yes vote in September.
        If there is a currency union, or an independent Scotland continues to use sterling without England’s “blessing”, both will be temporary measures. Things will be on hold, mainly because of Edinburgh/London negotiations, till the second most important vote in Scotland’s recent history: the general election of 2016.
        By then things will be a lot clearer, both domestically [party reorientation] and internationally [currency, EU, Nato, etc].
        By then we will know the feelings of the people of the rUK; the 2015 Westminster election, after a Yes vote, will be most instructive.
        The people of Scotland will vote accordingly for parties who either want a continuation of sterling use, or the introduction of a new Scottish currency.
        In the same way you say “we” are quite happy to manage foreign exchange risk with Scotland, I say, “we” are quite happy, after voting Yes, to wait a couple of years or so to see how things develop.
        First things first: Vote Yes.

        • Nicholas chuzzlewit

          So you have absolutely no idea why Salmond wants a currency union with the UK. It is not a question for Westminster because they do not want one. Salmond seems to want a currency union pretty badly because he has threatened to walk away from Scotland’s share of the national debt if he doesn’t get one. So why is he so keen on a currency union? I don’t want your opinion, I want to know why Salmond wants a CU. By the way, you can carry on using Sterling for as long as you want because it is a freely tradable currency and there is nothing I or anybody else can do to stop you.

          • asalord

            “It is not a question for Westminster because they do not want one.”
            That assertion has been blown apart by recent revelations.

            You say you don’t want my opinion then you ask me why Salmond wants a CU. Erm, well, here’s my opinion of why Salmond wants a CU.
            Salmond wants a currency union, I believe, as a result of Westminster denying the people of Scotland a devo-max option in the referendum.
            Salmond wants, and has achieved, the position of being perceived as moderate and reasonable in the face of Westminster intransigence.
            The one word that sums up Salmond’s leadership of the SNP over the years is “gradualness”.
            The SNP has gotten this far because of small progressive steps. For Salmond, and many of his supporters, currency union is just one of these steps. He asks for it because it sounds reasonable. The No campaign is suffering accordingly because they sound very unreasonable. Once again Salmond has run rings around the British nationalists of Westminster.

            Whether Salmond sees a currency union, or use of sterling, as temporary or long-term is irrelevant because he will not be around for much longer and ultimately it is the people of Scotland who will decide through general elections in an independent Scotland.
            First things first: Vote Yes.

            • Nicholas chuzzlewit

              That was an awful lot of words to say nothing. What are the economic reasons for wanting a currency union as opposed to Scotland simply using Sterling independently? I don’t care about Salmond running rings around people and ‘gradualness’ that is all completely irrelevant to me. I just want to understand the economic not tactical reasons for Salmond wanting a currency union as opposed to using Sterling independently. So no more waffle just a clear economic analysis please.

            • Jambo25

              Spot on. Salmond’s on a win/win here. He either gets some nod towards CU in which case Westminster and the ‘No’ campaign look a bit shambolic or he gets a lot of shoutiness from down south in which case Westminster and the ‘No’ campaign look a bit shrill, vindictive and unreasonable. Its a particular problem for Scottish Unionists like Darling and Alexander. They end up looking like they’re ganging up with the London political class against ‘their ain folk’.

    • Najm-ud-Din

      “The people of Scotland will vote Yes in September” – how very arrogant of you to say so, asslord

  • abystander

    Generally when English people say British culture they mean English culture.

    Try this ( without resort to wikepedia)

    1 What is the county town of Clackmannanshire?

    2 What are the dates of James III ( to within 10 years either side)?

    3 Name three medieval Scottish poets?

    4 Name three 20C Scottish poets?

    5 What was the principal provision of the Education Scotland Act 1917.

    6 Who were the first ever outright winners of the Scottish football championship?

    7 Where is Cowal?

    8 How many a side in a Shinty match?

    9 Who was leader of the SNP in 2000?

    10 Which species is more commonly found in Scotland, pandas or Tory MPs?

    • Nicholas chuzzlewit

      Re question 6, I did not realise you have Football in Scotland. Have you ever considered getting a Rugby team? Our lads turned up last month and were greeted by howitzers, flashing lights, exploding bagpipes etc etc but no team. There were a few blokes in blue shirts scampering about in the mud but no team. All very odd and I supposed that it must be a cultural thing.

      • abystander

        Thank you,gentlemen ( or should that be ladies?)

        Kinda proves my point.

        They do not know us, and in so far as they do not know us they have contempt for us. Who would want to be in a political union with such?

        • Nicholas chuzzlewit

          No it proves that if you ask a lot of silly questions designed to belittle English readers you will receive the kind of contemptuous response your facile list of questions deserves. But you carry on feeling smug you sad little man.

          • abystander

            It is not my intention to belittle you. You seem to be able to do that on your own.

            At my school I was made to learn English history. if you are so damned “British” , then learn our’s.

            • Nicholas chuzzlewit

              Cannot be bothered with this self-pitying idiot.

              • abystander

                You are supposed to be “love bombing ” me.

                Just not getting those vibes.

                • Wessex Man

                  Why on earth should Nicholas chuzzlewit love bomb a miserable piece of work like you.

                  Here’s one for you- What Foreign King got his just deserts( topped that is) with 20,00 of his invading army at Flodden Field 500 years ago last year, an event we English weren’t allowed to celebrate so as not to upset his fellow countrymen?

                • Kitty MLB

                  Nicholas, is English and Conservative, so he must love bomb
                  Scotland, UKIP ( don’t growl) must love bomb Conservatives
                  and especially Labour. And Cameron has given up with the love bombs.. last time he tried that was with the huskies
                  and those poor creatures are still in therapy- they never got over it.

                • Jambo25

                  It was James IV and who stopped you. Nobody from up here.

            • Jambo25

              I wouldn’t want to be in a Union (Political or otherwise) with Chuzzlewit even if I was English.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      1. Don’t know, and as long as they can offer up a scoff, don’t care.

      2. Most Scots can’t count, so does it really matter the “10 years either side”?

      3. Er, no.

      4. Er, is Liverpool in Scotland? Well then George, John, Paul and Ringo. That’s three, if you’re a Scot.

      5. Whatever the provisions, they didn’t work.

      6. Bad calls and cheating and the bookies.

      7. Don’t know, but it can’t be in Scotland, as the name isn’t spelled like celtic flatulence.

      8. None, if somebody shouts “free booze!” nearby the pitch.

      9. A double-crossing chancer with delusions of grandeur? How’d I do?

      10. Come on, how are we supposed to tell the difference here, between these soft, furry numbskull animals?

      • allymax bruce

        Bravo !

    • Hexhamgeezer

      I reckon the average resident of East Kilbride or Easterhouse would only get no.10 but;

      4) The 2 blokes out of the Proclaimers and Andy Stewart

      6) Probably Dumbarton but def not Celtic/Rangers

      8) Loads – depends on how many turn up.

      10) Pandas – as long as the Zoo’s cash lasts.

  • Paul W

    They are not unwilling – just susceptible to the seductive collectivist propaganda that teaches them that, in Salmond’s socialist paradise, they can have their cake and eat it forgetting that some of the ingredients come from “down south”.

    I would rather they remained within the UK – we would miss them quite a bit and they may miss us more. Whatever, the future is best together.

  • Iain Hill

    There is no emotional case. We have little or nothing in common with warmongering, imperialist, neoliberal Bullingdon supporters.

    • Wessex Man

      Oh you sad, sad person you. Who was it who followed Bush into Iraqi and Afghanistan, why Tone Blair, a Scot along with Gordo ,a little local difficulty Reid and mad Martin. Then along comes Cameron ( I’m proud of the Scottish blood that pounds theough my veins) and bombs Libya.

      It’ll be a relief to be away from you war mongering Scots.

    • Najm-ud-Din

      Neither do the majority of us south of the border!

    • Hexhamgeezer

      Grrrrr! bleedin’ Fatcher

  • Doggie Roussel

    We’d be poorer both spiritually and culturally….

    Possibly and technically correct, but to compare the the two British cultures is like comparing a giant to a pygmy…

    Don’t ever pretend that Scotland has produced more artistic geniuses than the English: in art, literature, or music… the occasional drunken, priapic meteor has blazed across the firmament… Burns springs to mind… but essentially the Scots are dour, spiteful, miserable and both grudging and grasping in most of their manifestations.

    Giving the English a chance of partaking in a referendum on a shared currency is as laughable as its propounder, Alistair Darling, lickspittle acolyte and chancellor of the psychopathic and cyclopean Gordon Brown.

    There is never a chance that the Scots are going to vote to abandon the English milch cow that is housed in the dairy at Westminster… and were the insane and contemptuous, Darling, to be granted his wish for a referendum to include the English, there would be an overwhelming vote on behalf of secession.

    Darling needs to stop treating the English with such contempt.

    • allymax bruce

      The lack of ‘talent’ from Scotland after Industrial Revolution was down to ‘British Empire’ ideology; purposely sidelining the Scots. Look at how many, and what authors we have; we get to write comic books, space-magic, and ‘there’s been a murder’ thrillers; the ‘British’ publishers keep the talented Scots down, and ‘ordered’. Can’t have a talented Scot taking all the glory! Now, I wonder where the ‘Brits’ learned that sleight-of-hand trick ?

  • Liberty

    But it would prevent Labour ever getting a majority in the rump UK so that is a plus.

    • Doggie Roussel

      It certainly would… upon secession about 50 odd Labour MPs would disappear from Westminster…. bring it on !

  • Bonkim

    Have to agree with that. Scottish intellectuals and innovators were part of what put the Great in Britain.

  • Rhoda Klapp8

    Of course the real threat is that Scottish political pundits will never be accepted in England after the New nation of Scotland emerges. Nelson, Forsyth, Neil and all the rest will of course be returning to their native land. And that’s what James is REALLY worried about. No tory spad career then.

    • huktra

      We will never lose James and Fraser

    • HookesLaw

      They can be accepted if they live here and are UK citizens. I am not sure their comments would carry much weight if they are made as foreigners looking in.

      • Doggie Roussel

        Shame that your cretinous, lightweight and inconsequential opinions appear to favour secession… that’s a blow to us English, hoping for a yes vote.

        Dimwits, like you, are always the curse of a good cause.

        • HookesLaw

          Your egregious opinions are not worth a bag of spit. Your posts simply confirm the kipperesque policy of hate.

          • Doggie Roussel

            Never a reasoned response… just a vacuous insult …

            • allymax bruce

              Nah, I’m voting him up for the ‘bag o’ spit’ jibe; great imagery.

    • monty61

      I’m sure both are far higher calibre than the average Tory spad.

      • Rhoda Klapp8

        They always seem to me not to have much insight, not much ability to penetrate an issue.. Maybe because coffee house posts are shot from the hip. Maybe because some things must not be written in the Spectator.

        Fraser and JF, that is, not Brillo.

    • allymax bruce

      “Of course the real threat is that Scottish political pundits will never
      be accepted in England after the New nation of Scotland emerges.”

      Yes !
      iScotland would have to scrap the ‘British’ Establishment methods of maintaining the Elitist Class!

  • Malcolm McCandless

    James Forsyth makes the all too common mistake in attempting to personalise the referendum debate. This is not about Alex Salmond as former Lib Dem leader, Charles Kennedy was at pains to say at the weekend.

    Being lied to, being patronised, being threatened, being insulted, being denigrated, for that is how Scots feel they have been treated, is no way for unionists to have run this campaign. Do you honestly think that an emotional case for the Union is going to soothe things over with Scots now?

    How about an apology for the way Better Together have run this campaign, and while we are it how about some honesty as well. That certainly wouldn’t go amiss at this late stage.

    • Michael Mckeown

      How about an apology for spending over a million pounds of taxpayers money on the SNP’s manifesto dressed up as a white paper that is the biggest load of lies ever published?

      • JohnMcDonaldish

        And the money the Westminster Government has spent on all those position papers…? The money they’ve spent on lobbying all those foreign governments? Good grief!

      • transponder

        ‘the biggest load of lies ever published’

        No, that in fact is Obama’s new health system for America.

        • Kitty MLB

          The most honourable thing that man ever did.
          And maybe his mother would have survived,
          as well as poor people who cannot afford
          to pay. Maybe if the gun laws were changed,
          hospitals would be full of sick people
          instead of hill billies shooting each other.

    • Colonel Mustard

      “Being lied to, being patronised, being threatened, being insulted, being denigrated”

      I sympathise. I feel the same way about Westminster.

      • Rhoda Klapp8

        Some Scots don’t seem to realise that the Westminster class despises us all in equal measure.

        • Kitty MLB

          And the Scots do not realise Slippery Salmond is playing
          them like a fiddle.. the true politician that he is.

        • Jambo25

          I think we do. The difference is that the Scots have somewhere to go.

    • HookesLaw

      Pointing out the facts is not threatening or insulting. Pretending that a countetr argument is an insult shows that you have no argument in the first place.

      • Rhoda Klapp8

        Words almost fail. How about that beam in your own eye?

        • HookesLaw

          It is people like you who live in fantasy world.

          • Doggie Roussel

            And it’s people like you, who have a surfeit of self-belief, accompanied by a lack of intelligence and logic, along with a very loud voice, who are the curse of reasoned debate.

            • HookesLaw

              Don’t make me laugh.

              • Doggie Roussel

                You couldn’t make anyone laugh, you over-inflated bag of bile …

          • Rhoda Klapp8

            My point is proven. An insult instead of an explanation.

            • Barakzai

              It’s all very simple. Disagree with HookesLaw and one’s a fantasist, a Kipper, a fruitcake, or an ignoramus. End of.

            • Jambo25

              Par for the course from some of the gents on here. I used t try and be polite. Now I simply give as good as I get and better if I can.

    • Nicholas chuzzlewit

      All a question of personal perspective. Being told by Salmond that my country will have no choice but to enter into a currency union with Scotland and then threatening to renege on Scotland’s share of the National Debt if we decline, stirs up similar feelings of being “threatened, insulted, lied to” etc etc. The people of the UK, according to Salmond, will have to take his currency union without a vote on the matter and that has got some of us pretty irritated. A currency union is manifestly bad news for the UK taxpayer who can see no reason whatsoever why they should underwrite the newly issued public debt of a foreign country without being able to limit the amount or term of such debt. The suggestion that 8.3% of the population will dictate a key element of the economic future to the other 91.7% of the population smacks of stratospheric arrogance and dishonesty. Please do not suggest that the UK is desperate for a currency union to avoid forex translation exposures on trade because we have a much larger trading relationship with the EU than Scotland and manage that exposure very comfortably thank you. By all means demand an apology from the No campaign but the Yes campaign is every last bit as arraogant and dishonest.

    • Wessex Man

      You do realise the the Better Together Campaign are Scots don’t you?

  • anyfool

    What utter tripe, there is no emotional case to make, the thing that bound England and Scotland together was technical, Scotland joined with England out of financial nescessity , up till then they had a close relationship with England`s mortal enemy the French.
    The Empire kept these two countries bound together and since that started to unwind so have the bonds between the two countries.
    Twee fools spouting nonsense on Burns night in pubs around England were a creation of landlords, what other bond are you talking about, if you really had any emotional bond to the Scots you would be arguing for independence and not bleating on about a marriage of convenience that has reached its end.

    • HookesLaw

      Of course it is not tripe. We are greater than the sum of our parts. I guess this is the kipperesque tendency at work which hates everything and everybody.

      • Wessex Man

        My word Hooky, you are working overtime, any old excuse to knock UKip, you are truly becoming sadder by the day.

        • HookesLaw

          anyfool spouts his usual inventions. And it is a sad crass hatred at work.

          • Doggie Roussel

            Always the reaction of a mongrel which is getting a good and well-deserved whipping…. resort to futile and lightweight abuse.

          • Wessex Man

            Do you actually work Hooky, you seem to spent an awlful lot of time spouting rubbish here.

      • Doggie Roussel

        What is this new buzz word that you keep using “kipperesque” ?
        I can’t find any reference to it … or is it that you just fantasize about smoked fish ?

        Are there any other bizarre perversions about which you might care to enlighten us ?

        • Wessex Man

          Don’t, don’t ask!

          • the viceroy’s gin

            Yes, don’t ask. They’d surely involve front bench Camerloons and some truly disgusting activities.

      • allymax bruce

        You evince the Gestalt principle; in Psychology, it basically means no one mental function orders all. Rather, all the functions play their own role; of which leads to the result ‘more than the sum of its parts’. Basically Gestalt, in political terms would mean while there’s lots of little ‘functions’ (Representative Democracy), one over-riding function (Westminster Elite) can claim total/absolute authority. In other words, you espouse Marxism. Sincerely, allymax.

  • Kitty MLB

    Well slippery Salmond has been making it only about the emotional
    “his bitter within campaign” how horrid those Tories and the English are,
    how we can grab our freedom- the land of milk and honey.
    Playing to the lowest common denominator. Salmond doesn’t even lie straight
    in bed. Just a deceitful ego with his own agenda… I wonder if he and Tony Blair
    got on very well. He doesn’t have a clue what will happen to Scotland- its his own agenda.. Well good luck with your own currency, you can always join the Euro.

  • JohnMcDonaldish

    Oh aye, it’s all this Alex Salmond’s fault. Nothing to do with the millions of Scots who will actually be casting their votes on the 18th September. Wee bit late to make the emotional case but Justin and his mates might start by acknowledging that this referendum isn’t Alex Salmond’s or the SNP’s or the YES or NO campaigns’; it belongs to the people of Scotland. And they will give their answer soon enough…

    • Michael Mckeown

      And when they vote no you will respect the will of the ‘soverign’ people? Don’t bother answering as everyone knows you wont.

      • JohnMcDonaldish

        It’s sovereign and the term requires no inverted commas unless you don’t agree the people of Scotland are sovereign. But don’t let spelling or constitutional matters get in the way of a silly rant…

        • Michael Mckeown

          See you have no intention of respecting any other view but your own.

          • JohnMcDonaldish

            I respect other peoples’ views. But I take delight in winding up silly trolls. Grow up.

            • Michael Mckeown

              So when there is a no vote you will happily accept the settled will of the soverign Scots?

              • Colonel Mustard

                Of course that won’t happen. Salmond and the SNP are not going to stand down. If the vote is ‘No’ it will just be a successful rearguard action for Scots Unionists in the march of time. Devo Max will kick in anyway and incrementally reach a ‘Yes’ result in due course.

                The Monarchy will go too and we shall have a President eventually. ‘Progress’ doesn’t stop or go backwards. The foot is in the door and shoving harder every year. The resisters are dying out.

                • Alexsandr

                  If they get devo max, then we must have answers to the west Lothian question and the Barnett formula

                • Colonel Mustard

                  It will just be obfuscated in the usual way. The contempt and lies are now blatant. Until the English actually rebel against Westminster nothing will change. And there is no leader for them like Salmond.

                • Andy

                  Those two questions need to be answered regardless. We need and should have an English Parliament with exactly the same powers as the Scottish Parliament. And as to Barnett that should be abolished.

    • Alexsandr

      but its unfair that a union can be dustbinned without one half of that union having a say. And now the possibility of a referendum on the currency in eng/wal/NI if Scotland goes means the idea of a currency union will be dead in the water. If the scots want to throw their teddies out then they must expect some pain.

    • Nicholas chuzzlewit

      I confess I have no objection to Scots seeking independence and control over their own affairs. We are forever claiming to uphold democratic principles and so should not object when the opportunity to uphold such principles arises on our own doorstep. What I object to most vehemently however, is the suggestion by Salmond that the UK will have no choice but to enter into a currency union with Scotland. It is ludicrous that 8.3% of the population should seek to dictate to 91.7% of the population on such a critical economic policy. It is manifestly not in the interests of UK taxpayers to underwrite the newly issued public debt of a foreign country while having no ability to limit the term or amount of debt issued. We are already guaranteeing the whole of the existing national debt thus rendering Salmond’s, highly dishonourable, threat to renege on Scotlands share of the national debt. The thought of adding a wholly unlimited contingent liability to that commitment is unsupportable. By all means keep Sterling but not as part of a currency union thankyou. Why does Salmond want a currency union by the way?

      • JohnMcDonaldish

        Talk about being one-sided! Perhaps the concept that an agreed currency zone might be sensible from a rUk point of view has missed you? Salmond hasn’t said, at any point, that rUK would have no choice. Dissolving the Union necessitates a fair division of both liabilities and assets. Salmond has always said he would have Scotland take a fair share of liabilities; it’s Westminster that wants to hold onto the assets. A common view in Scotland is that Westminster doesn’t see Scotland as an equal partner in the Union and therefore not entitled to be treated as such.

        Why would we want to use our £? Do you really need an answer?

        • Nicholas chuzzlewit

          No because that was not the question I asked. Scotland is perfectly welcome to continue using Sterling because it is a freely tradable currency and there is nothing anybody in the UK could do to stop you even if so inclined. My question was why does Salmond want a currency union? Perhaps you could provide an answer without recourse to the unintelligible gibberish of your previous response.

        • Andy

          Couple of points. Sterling is the ancient currency of the Kingdom of England, so belongs to that Kingdom. The Scots Pound was converted at the very favourable terms in 1707 of 12:1 – Scotland was bankrupt. As Nicholas points out we the people of England are being told by you ScotsNats that ‘there will be a Currency Union’. You can’t even be bothered to ask us. You tell us. Well there wont be a Currency Union and the reasons have been clearly set out by the Chancellor, which has been endorsed by the Chief Secretary and the Shadow Chancellor. And what do you mean by ‘Scotland as an equal partner in the Union’. Last time I looked 91% of teh UK population lived in England not Scotland.

  • starfish

    Wrong. The SNP’s campaign is entirely founded on this line of activity. Proving that their flights of fancy do not hold up in the real world is the correct strategy

    • JohnMcDonaldish

      “Flights of fancy” Oh dearie, dearie me…

  • jazz606

    “…Without Scotland, the UK would be poorer both culturally and spiritually…”

    What utter tripe. Scotland will still be there, it’s not as if it’s going to be detached from the British Isles and towed away.

    • Rhoda Klapp8

      Correct. We still get plenty of Irish culture, and they left nearly a century back. Why, I believe Guiness is still available in some London hostelries.

      • Michael Mckeown

        Perhaps because Northern Ireland is still in the UK?

        • Rhoda Klapp8

          No, because the transmission of culture ignores national boundaries in this connected world. There is no cultural loss if Scotland goes. They will still be right here on the net. Of course I hope all the Nats will take their resentment elsewhere after independence.

          • Michael Mckeown

            What would they do with all the resentment after independence? Its not like it will evaporate as its been passed down from father to son over centuries.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …they’ll invade. They’re like Putin. They’ll strip naked and paint their faces blue and come careening down like the savages everybody knows they really are. 😉

          • Jambo25

            Well I’m a nat and while I’m typing this I’m listening to Lisa della Casa singing Vier letzte Lieder. A Swiss singer singing German music originally on a Japanese recording label. Regardless of what happens on September 18th I’ll still drop into the Tate, when I’m in London, to see the Turners

  • Rhoda Klapp8

    A union composed of a largely unwilling Scots population is no good to me, I’ll just have to call it English liberation and get on with it. If they wanna go (and it takes a majority to win the referendum, not just Alec S) then go they must, and I wish them sincere good luck.

    But somebody will need to do something about the problem of English self-rule no matter what the result.

    • Michael Mckeown

      An independent Scotland with a large population unwilling seems bad for Britain to me.

      • Wessex Man

        that doesn’t make sense, please expand, if they have referendum and vote to go how can a large populayion be unwilling?

        • Michael Mckeown

          The polling is close at currently around 40% for and the rest undecided or against so a yes on a 53% vote for example means 47% of the population would be unhappy.

          • HookesLaw

            But the point is a 53% vote the other way would leave 47% unhappy.

            • Michael Mckeown

              Indeed so whatever the outcome there is going to be trouble.

              • Hello

                No, if it’s No vote then they’ll be a transfer of powers and everyone will be happy for a while.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Why? The vote is to stay or go not get more powers.

                • Hello

                  Because if there isn’t then not everyone will be happy.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Not everyone will be happy anyway.

                • Hello

                  If there is a transfer of powers, they will be for a while.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Its really only immigration along with taxation and the military that are not devolved and these things wont be.

                • Hello

                  Yes, there’s going to be some taxation powers devolved.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Nothing thats going to upset the balance of things though.

                • Hello

                  No, but enough for both sides to claim victory.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  I’m not really sure how Salmond could claim victory in loosing but we know he is a chancer and the Scots have a large population of gullible people so he will try it on.

                • Hello

                  Transfers powers of taxation. Salmond: “blah blah blah….wouldn’t have happened without the referendum…blah blah blah…forced Westminsters hand…blah blah blah…bluff and bluster….nasty Tories…bluster bluster bluf…blah blah blah”

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …sounds like a plan.

                • Wessex Man

                  course it’ll be a victory, with Call me Dave in power willing to give away everything English to keep the Union, there would have to be a revolt in England for us to get equality.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Well those in the North could have voted for regional government but never.

                • Wessex Man

                  But never wanted to break our nation, England, despite the efforts of the Welsh toad Prescott and the unelected Tony crony Lord Falconer.

                  I’ll never forget his (Falconer’s) screwed up little Scottish face as he Screamed at us “watch my mouth, there’ll never be an English Parliament.”

                • Michael Mckeown

                  I live most of the time in England and to generalise I would say the English prefer less government and dont need the state to come round and wipe their arses whereas the Scots cant cope that well on an individual level and need to be micromanaged by the state.

                • Wessex Man

                  erm, that’s what I’m saying, one English Parliament, not nine Regional Assemblies, all with their ‘First Minister’ and Cabinet!

                • AtMyDeskToday

                  “I live most of the time in England”
                  That says it all, and this confirms it…
                  “and to generalise”.

                • Jambo25

                  +
                  Nice bit of racism from the economically failing West Midlands.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  I have shown you previously that the West mindlands is the UK’s most prosperous manufacturing region that is experiencing far more growth than Scotland but if you remember all you could do to counter it was say ‘my brother in law worked their but quit and now he makes more money’ but in any event it is not racist to describe certain Scots as lazy and incapable of thinking fr themselves.

                • Jambo25

                  You keep telling yourself that. Who knows? one day it might be true and its not racist for me to call you a self deluding twit: merely accurate.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Its true and you know full well I provided you with evidence but all you could do was talk about your brother in law who you claim left a ‘very well paid’ job because he was not ‘satisfied’ and if you remember I told you that was code for he had been sacked.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  Yes where is that arrogant little scumbag now?

                • Wessex Man

                  probably off on holiday with Tone the wife and Murduch’s ex, perfect loathsome.

                • Wessex Man

                  We the English will not be happy, I say a little prayer every night the they vote yes and go!

                • Hello

                  When the time comes, the English will essentially put up with it.

                • Wessex Man

                  When the time comes for what, independence? yes yes yes, Devo-Max, you’ll find that you’ve pushed us to far and we want change.

                • komment

                  vo Max is not on offer and after a YES vote the concept is redundant.

                • Iain Hill

                  We share that view. Thanks for your support!

                • Wessex Man

                  you’re welcome, I have offered one of your fellow yessers to come up and pound the streets with her.

                • allymax bruce

                  “I have offered one of your fellow yessers to come up and pound the streets with her.” (Wessex Man).

                  ?//// !! ?

                • Kitty MLB

                  Dear Ally, you really are an excellent Scot,
                  people are saying all sorts, and yet you
                  manage to retain humour and good manners.
                  Yet others easily throw toys out of the pram
                  if you say something about their parties.
                  Some , perhaps take politics too seriously :)

                • allymax bruce

                  Thanks for your kind words, Kitty; and you’re an excellent person too. It’s nice to chat to pretty people. I keep a sunny outlook, Kitty; even when it’s dull, foggy, & drizzly like it is today here in Edinburgh.
                  Yes, politics, because of the advent of www / internet, is now being scrutinised, and the veil is torn; we can now see what they used to do to us in the past, and the only real future for ‘conventional politics’ is to Modernise, and actually give us, the people, an honest Nation-State provision.

                • Kitty MLB

                  Sorry You have had miserable weather today,
                  its been very warm in the southwest.Athough
                  fog creates atmospheric charm in Edinburgh.
                  Its been so nice today , that we might go
                  for a walk after dinner.
                  Yes indeed, with 24Hr news and the internet,
                  politicans cannot hide clandestinely like
                  they used to be able too. Mind you
                  they use that as an excuse not to interact
                  with the electorate so much, they have
                  become lazy and media obsessed..

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Well, did you think the women were any less deviant than the men up there? Come on now. 😉

                • komment

                  Take the plunge, move to Scotland and vote yes.
                  You may find you want to stay

                • komment

                  That was Cameron’s decision, IN or OUT, nothing in between..

              • komment

                What trouble do you foresee and from whom?

          • Iain Hill

            Ergo totally unworkable…….ehm just like the UK?

        • Iain Hill

          Typical pro union claptrap!

          • Wessex Man

            typical regurgitated rubbish from you as usual

      • Rhoda Klapp8

        That large pro-union population will have an important role as a recipient of all the resentmernt currently heaped on the English, especially if things take a while to go right. (I can’t foresee an economic disaster for an independent Scotland unless they mess it up for themselves.)

        • BarkingAtTreehuggers

          …mess up like ourselves.

        • Fergus Pickering

          Which they surely will. Scots run Glasgow after all.

          • Jambo25

            That’ll be the Glasgow, which despite its problems, still has rather better economic stats than numerous big English cities.

            • Fergus Pickering

              What are you talking about? I think you are referring to some other Glasgow. The one that’s actually there..brrrr…

              • Jambo25

                Look at the comparative economic stats before you start.

      • Iain Hill

        Who is unwilling? Alas, the No vote only represents oppression and fear. Once voted, independence will receive unanimous support except for those who currently make a financial killing from the UK

        • Michael Mckeown

          Oh the delusions of the separatists…………….

          • telemachus

            The only delusion is that Socialist Scotland would ever leave Westminster in the lurch losing 41 Labour MP’s is fanciful

            • Colonel Mustard

              We’ll see.

    • telemachus

      Forget the Scots
      This is about an overall majority at Westminster
      Most Scots are Socialists and will see this

      • Alexsandr

        yes and they have been ruling over the English too long.

        • Kitty MLB

          ‘ Ruling’ is the correct word, Labour would like absolute rule-
          despotism!

          • telemachus

            You forgot the Gulag, Kitty

          • Andy

            Labour are just Fascists so what do you expect.

            • telemachus

              Fascists do not care
              We do

              • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                About yourselves. Labour the party of lies, lying and liars.

              • Kitty MLB

                fascists wish to dictate not care Telemachus.

      • Hello

        Most Scots are conservative, they just dislike the Tories, but don’t confuse that with them being socialists. Left to their own devices, they are more individualist than the English.

        • telemachus

          Do not think so
          Look at the MSP’s
          They are either Labour or the farther left SNP
          *
          Thank God

        • Kitty MLB

          As with everywhere else with all their caterwauling,
          as we know Lefties make the loudest noise.. empty vessels
          and all that.

          • rtj1211

            UKIP have made rather a loud noise the past 24 months. The DT made rather a loud noise for 2 years about the Coalition.

            I don’t think anyone would describe those two organisations as Lefties……

            • Kitty MLB

              Fair enough, everyone is making a thunderous noise
              at the moment, which will only get louder as the year progresses. Waiting for the hurricane to hit next may.

        • Jambo25

          I don’t know if we are more individualistic than the English but you are spot on about the essential centrist, even mildly conservative nature of the Scots. The Tories went in for a process of slow motion suicide, up here, from Heath onwards.

    • monty61

      Rubbish. Most scots are not and never have been ‘unwilling’. It’s infantile nonsense to suggest most of us ‘wanna go’ and simply panders to the equally infantile dreamers of the Gnat persuasion.

      • Rhoda Klapp8

        There are plenty right here. If Scotland is split 50/50 somebody is not going to get what they want on an important issue. This is one of those times when democracy is part of the problem, when two factions want opposing things which cannot be reconciled. Somebody has to lose. Vide Ukraine.

        • Jambo25

          That’s true at every election. Let’s just abolish messy things like elections.

    • HookesLaw

      Amazingly Mr Monty is right. There is no ‘largely unwilling’ population.

    • Richard

      English self rule – if only the day would come. Sick of Scottish MP’s distorting issues affecting England only (tuition fees for example, healthcare I could go on…..)

  • swatnan

    OTOH, Scotland would have the chance to blossom once it comes out of the shadow of the overbearing English. And the Scots have always been more European and Nordic than the English.

    • Kitty MLB

      Shetland has always felt more Nordic then Scotland, so she may leave you,
      You can always join your EU buddies and have the Euro ( as you cannot
      keep the pound) and you think England is overbearing, you have not seen a thing, that ballooned Ego as Le Presidente will overbearing-
      his birthday will become a nation holiday. He already treats Holyrood
      with contempt according to some here that knows.

    • Michael Mckeown

      The ‘English’ are overbearing? Obviously you met all 50 million of them before coming to that conclusion?

    • Swiss Bob

      Boo hoo, the horrible English What a pathetic bunch you SNPers are.

      GTF.

    • Colonel Mustard

      When Broon was Prime Minister it really didn’t feel like it was the English who were overbearing. There is no English equivalent to Salmond.

      It would be an interesting exercise to determine just how many MPs in Westminster are ethnically English without Scots, Welsh, Irish or any other ethnic elements in their ancestries. I suspect not many. I reckon more commonality would be revealed in the schools and universities attended than in ethnicity.

      Demonising the English is probably not the most edifying way for Scotland to blossom.

      • HookesLaw

        Of course there is an English equivalent to Salmond, he is called Saint Nigel.

        • Wessex Man

          wasn’t Nigel atacked twice when north of the border out on the streets, trying to save the union Hooky, while Call me Dave now travels there with armed guards. You are so sad.

          • Michael Mckeown

            Call me Dave always has armed guards.

          • HookesLaw

            Farage is an English Nationalist. Farage was promoting leaving the EU.

            • Kitty MLB

              Leaving the EU which we are not actually attached to
              as in geography and do not share a currency with..
              as well as it being a dying elephant in need of putting to sleep
              is quite different to Scotland leaving the UK.

            • Wessex Man

              Farage much to my annoyance, never has been an English Nationalist like me. It always makes me chuckle when I see idiots like you degenerating English Nationalism but promoting Scottish, Welsh, irish and Ukrainain.

              You sad person!

          • Kitty MLB

            Yes he was old chap.
            Some thugs in Scotland, hit him and made his lip bleed,
            but he didn’t want a fuss made of it..

        • Colonel Mustard

          I disagree. Farage leads UKIP not EIP and is not in the same league as Salmond anyway.

          Farage is also a Unionist.

          • Wessex Man

            That’s no crime and I say that as someone who wants English Independence but I’m English so can see another person’s point of view!

    • HookesLaw

      Where do you get that from? Just invention. Where are the scots ‘nordic’? Yorkshire is more Nordic than Scotland.

  • Bill McInroy

    ‘rendered’ asunder? Surely ‘rent’?

Close
Can't find your Web ID? Click here