Coffee House

Spectator TV presents Putin vs. Obama: whose side are the American right on?

31 March 2014

10:35 AM

31 March 2014

10:35 AM

Under the shadow of the Crimean situation, Harry Cole travelled to Washington DC to find out what American conservatives really make of Putin.

He asked attendees of this month’s Conservative Political Action Conference (CPac) who is worse — President Obama, or President Putin?


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  • viewcode

    I understand that there are many Spectator readers who dislike the EU. But to transfer that dislike to an approval of Russia’s actions is not sane. The EU is not to blame for Russia’s actions. Russia is to blame for Russia’s actions.

  • Aaron Jeethan

    I’m sure we can all imagine the following headline:

    Russian Supported Crowds Overthrow Mexican Government; America Has No Problem With That, Won’t Take Any Action

    • the viceroy’s gin

      Bad analogy.

      Apparently, the local European nations don’t seem to be too upset about matters close by them, and they’re the ones who count most.

      Whether the Russians could or would mount a revolutionary operation in the Americas, far away from their home region, is questionable. Back in the Sovs’ day, yes, but likely not today.

  • goatmince

    It astounds me that this correlation of fully congruent values of both Putin and Tea Party supporters (which has been pointed out on this very website ages ago) has not been picked up earlier.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      …you suck under this new nickname too, lad. And that’s a sheep, not a goat, you idiot.

    • Cyril Sneer

      I guess you don’t know what a goat looks like….

  • Doggie Roussel

    The American right are 90% hillbillys from the Midwest and Deep South… they probably think Putin is a new-fangled hamburger from the local McDonald’s… I have been into a bank in Lexington, Kentucky and when asked where I was from and replying, London, was asked whether that was London, Kentucky, or London Tennessee…

    America is a cultural and intellectual wasteland.

    • Bonkim

      That was a very rational response – many across the globe know little about people and locations just miles from where they live of have generalised/ strange views picked up from their media.

      As a stranger it is for you to make yourself clear rather that the locals to make the effort. You sound a little arrogant.

    • Cyril Sneer

      Nothing like an f ton of sweeping generalisations.

  • saffrin

    Once the USA and EU recognise the legitimate Ukrainian Government, the problem the European Union themselves created will no longer exist.
    The real question should be are those EU officials going to be jailed or even sanctioned for their actions?

  • KingGreen

    unlike Obama, who hasn’t been right about anything so far, Putin has actually managed to make some sense – like him or not

    • flintman

      The poor man’s been all at sea since his teleprompter ‘pled the fifth’.

  • Herman_U_Tick

    The headline led me to think that Obama and Putin had agreed to a
    TV debate similar to the one with Farage and Clegg.

  • MikeF

    Who would the American left suport if the President were still George Bush?

    • Tom Tom

      George Bush was never President: he was Cheney’s sidekick

  • Bonkim

    The American Right would prefer Putin who speaks in their language.

  • Kitty MLB

    Well the EU was created so there will be no more wars in Europe, hope that remains ,
    she also arrogantly voices her opinion making the situation even worse.
    The big ole USA is another warmongering country ( also not so much with lame duck
    Obama) she also thinks the USA is the worlds police and arrogantly voices her
    opinion far too often. So like someone else here I shall say neither, thank thee
    very much… not The wretched EU or the equally wretched USA…

    • Tom Tom

      Gorbachev wanted a “Common European Home” with Russia integrated into Europe: the US did not

  • Neil Ashley

    Loved the comment about the Nissan.

  • Hexhamgeezer

    Neither? America’s?

    • Kitty MLB

      I shall second that sir, neither !!!

  • JoeDM

    I don’t care who side the US right are on.

    What I know is that the EU has maintained a sustained campaign to destabilise the Ukraine which resulted in the over turning of a democratically elected government.

    • S&A

      ‘What I know is that the Russian Federation has maintained a sustained campaign to destabilise the Ukraine which resulted in a popular uprising against a corrupt puppet government’.

      Fixed so as to represent reality.

      • br14

        That “corrupt puppet government” was elected by 48% of Ukrainians.

        And since when does a President flee peaceful demonstrators?

        You do realise those snipers that killed demonstrators and police were hired by forces in opposition to Yanukovych? (As confirmed by the Estonian foreign minister).

        What you should have said was “Fixed so as to represent virtual reality”.

        • S&A

          ‘You do realise those snipers that killed demonstrators and police were hired by forces in opposition to Yanukovych? (As confirmed by the Estonian foreign minister)’.

          Is that a fact?

          I offer this for your education, in case you (a) are interested in reading beyond the RT website and (b) can manage long paragraphs and words.

          http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/30/exclusive-photographs-expose-russian-trained-killers-in-kiev.html

          • br14

            I listened to a leaked recording of a phone call between the Estonian foreign minister and Baroness Ashton in which he stated the snipers were organised by forces in opposition to Yanukovych.

            Are you suggesting the Estonians are in league with Putin?

            Unlike you, I believe everyone has an agenda. In an age of instant information, it’s a real challenge determining the truth. I’m fairly certain the Daily Beast is no more reliable than RT. Therefore I wouldn’t believe everything I read in either. Damn sure I’d be careful believing anything produced by an ex-CEO of Fox.

            I don’t read or speak Ukrainian so I have no idea if the RT claims about the Right Section are true. Though I note in the interests of accuracy the BBC did mention Right Section once.

            Try using what brain cells you have.

            Why exactly would Putin destabilise a government that was friendly toward him?

            Who stood to benefit from the murder of demonstrators?

            One thing is certain. It wasn’t Yanukovych and it wasn’t Putin.

            Putin was pretty clearly taken by surprise by the overthrow of Yanukovych – a President elected by 48% of the Ukrainian electorate. After all, surely the US and EU wouldn’t be involved in the overthrow of democracy?

            Personally I think he’s been trapped into giving the EU and US exactly what they want in Ukraine. They could never have been sure of a pro-West government while Crimea was part of Ukraine (it’s the area with the highest density of pro-Russian voters).

            • Tom Tom

              The Estonian FM quoted a doctor treating the wounded. Whether policemen or rioters the gunshot wounds were the same – to the heart or to the neck – and suggested snipers firing on both sides. Others report seeing men carrying sniper bags into a key building under the control of the rioters and in particular the man now heading up the Interior Ministry

              • S&A

                ‘The Estonian FM quoted a doctor treating the wounded’.

                Her name was Olga Bogomolets. She subsequently denied making any claim that the wounded had been shot at by anyone other than the government side.

                • flintman

                  Not really surprising is it. You’ve just informed the world (unwittingly) that neo-Nazi thugs have been assassinating people on both sides of the dispute to escalate the problem. Now they want to know where you live.

                • S&A

                  Or maybe the story was a bulls*** rumour from the start.

                  Have you got any comment at all to offer about all those sniper-y looking people in the SBU building?

                  Or is it another case of TL-DR?

                • Tom Tom

                  No she said what i said about the wounds –

            • S&A

              ‘I listened to a leaked recording of a phone call between the Estonian foreign minister and Baroness Ashton in which he stated the snipers were organised by forces in opposition to Yanukovych’.

              Paet relayed a story that turned out to be untrue. The supposed source of this story – a medic called Olga Bogomolets – denied that she made any claim that the protestors had been shot at by anyone other than Yanukovych’s goons.

              My link also refuted this story, which the Estonian F-M relayed as a rumour, rather than confirming it. Was it a case of TL-DR for you?

              ‘I’m fairly certain the Daily Beast is no more reliable than RT’.

              Right, so when Russia Today relayed claims about thousands of refugees fleeing Ukraine for Southern Russia – and then showed footage of routine traffic crossing the border into Poland – you believed that as well. And you didn’t bother consulting a map.

              ‘I don’t read or speak Ukrainian so I have no idea if the RT claims about the Right Section are true’.

              You have ‘no idea’ full stop.

              ‘Why exactly would Putin destabilise a government that was friendly toward him?’

              You might want to learn basic reading comprehension. I said that Putin had been destabilising Ukraine. There’s a country, and there’s a government.

              ‘Who stood to benefit from the murder of demonstrators?’

              Nicolae Ceausescu didn’t gain much from ordering his Securitate to shoot demonstrators in Bucharest in December 1989. Bashar al-Assad did not gain much from ordering his thugs to do the same in Damascus three years ago.

              Your point, caller?

              ‘Putin was pretty clearly taken by surprise by the overthrow of Yanukovych – a President elected by 48% of the Ukrainian electorate. After all, surely the US and EU wouldn’t be involved in the overthrow of a democratic government?’

              And surely someone wouldn’t be stupid enough to believe a fairy tale like that. But then you are clearly somewhat ovine in intelligence.

              • br14

                You accept any old drivel your preferred media supply and devour it without question. Because it suits your narrow view of the world.

                How for example, did the Estonian FM dream up this story?

                And what about the amazing power of those peaceful Ukrainian demonstrators, who manage to topple a President surrounded by armed goons. I bet the Occupy project would like to be as effective.

                And you call me “ovine”?

                You really shouldn’t resort to insults – no matter how “ovine” the intellect of your correspondent. It weakens your position and suggests you’re not entirely convinced about the power of your arguments.

                • S&A

                  ‘Ovine’ definitely works for anyone who swallows propaganda BS without doing the background work to check their veracity.

                  So yes, that insult does apply to you.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  It’s amusing that you, the pot, are making kettle accusations.

                • br14

                  The account concerning the Estonian FM is true. You implied as much in your earlier comments. Foreign ministers typically don’t transmit bogus reports to EU Commissioners. I haven’t mentioned any “propaganda”.

                  The FM described in some detail his conversation with the Ukrainian doctor, and her analysis that both demonstrators and police were killed by the same weapons.

                  The fact that later the renowned Ukrainian doctor was clearly persuaded not to confirm the account only serves to deepen the intrigue. (Perhaps she’ll make President after all).

                  Are you suggesting she is accustomed to lying to visiting foreign dignitaries? Or did the foreign minister invent the account?

                  The horse had left the stable. Two of the participants couldn’t deny the story because they were on the record, so they made sure the only other party involved denied the account. And you bought it. Because it is what you want to believe.

                  You’re living in a fantasy world where the EU is a bastion of democracy, and the USA would never engage in unlawful activity to achieve a strategic objective.

                  I’m afraid if there is any “propaganda” consumption going on here, it isn’t me doing the swallowing.

                • S&A

                  Right, let’s deal with this latest bout of cretinry step by step.

                  (1) Paet was relaying a rumour that was doing the rounds in Kiev. He did not pronounce on its veracity.

                  (2) The doctor who was supposedly the source of this rumour about opposition snipers firing on their own subsequently denied that she was.

                  (3) Your claim that Dr Bogomolets was ‘clearly persuaded not to confirm the account’ is speculation on your part.

                  (4) You still have to explain away the photographic evidence of Alfa group snipers (trained by the Russians) in the SBU building (under government control, also with close ties to the FSB) which I have shown you.

                  You remind me very much of a 9/11 truther. You are immune to evidence and logical reasoning. So be that way – just don’t be surprised that people like me don’t join you in supping the Kool Aid.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Again, there is no “photographic evidence” of your fantasized “group snipers”.

                  Well, unless you’re a drooling moron or a fantasist, then the family dog is in cahoots with the sniper team .

                • S&A

                  See my link.

                  Unless – as per your choice of moniker – you have a serious case of delerium tremens. Which might explain the quality of your commentary here.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Everybody already saw and rejected your link, lad. You better take it up with the family dog .

                  Again, there is no “photographic evidence” of your fantasized “group snipers”.

                  Well, unless you’re a drooling moron or a fantasist, then the family dog is in cahoots with the sniper team .

                • S&A

                  ‘Everybody’ = two, possibly three kooks who prefer a discredited rumour to photographic evidence of snipers preparing for work.

                  Which do you reach for first, lad? The tinfoil, or the Special Brew?

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Again, everybody already saw and rejected your link, lad. You better take it up with your dog .

                  Again, there is no “photographic evidence” of your fantasized “group snipers”.

                  Well, unless you’re a drooling moron or a fantasist, then the family dog is in cahoots with the sniper team .

                • br14

                  (1). He spoke one on one with the Doctor who happens to be from a famous family in Ukraine and was responsible for organising medical care for demonstrators and police alike. She had noticed the bullet wounds had the same characteristics regardless of whether to demonstrators or police. He was not relaying a rumour.

                  (2). Why would she change her story or lie to the FM in the first place? Or why would he get the story wrong when it was so significant?

                  (3). Correct. But it is beyond credulity to think that someone in her position would fabricate such an account, then deny it later. The significance of her account is enormous.

                  (4). The key sentence in the article concerns “a US Intelligence source”.

                  The author uses classic language of deniability. “the photos APPEAR to reveal the truth”.

                  And why would the Daily Beast get exclusive access to the photos if they were the real thing? Why wouldn’t the intelligence source publish them globally? How did the Daily Beast get exclusive access to an intelligence source in the first place?

                  And then there’s the big question. How on earth did US intelligence have someone on the ground – just at the point these armed men were in action?

                  If the photos were taken by some innocent bystander, how come they were given to the US Intelligence source and not published elsewhere?

                  Finally, why would Russian marksmen kill police as well as demonstrators? It’s not like they’re worried about their reputation.

                  Here’s another option for you…

                  http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/interior-ministry-weapons-found-at-former-right-sector-headquarters-in-dnipro-hotel-341642.html

                  One thing is certain. Whatever BS we’re being served up by both sides is simply propaganda.

                  “You are immune to evidence and logical reasoning”

                  If you can find some evidence I’d be happy to hear it. So far all you’ve done is provide one link to a highly dodgy article.

                  The voice recording I refer to is on the record, has been accepted by authentic by the Estonians, and calls into question the basis for what is essentially a violent coup to overthrow Yanukovych.

                  We can agree perhaps that he deserved to be overthrown. Though elections would have been in any case held within months and there is little chance he would have been re-elected.

                  By then of course, the EU would not have had financial control of the Ukraine (as they will now), and instead Ukraine would have had a larger and less constrained bail out from Russia. Hence the timing of the coup.

                  I’d just like to be sure in my own mind, before our elected leaders take us into World War III that we have a just cause. (I don’t think they will by the way, because they have what they want).

                • S&A

                  ‘(1). He spoke one on one with the Doctor who happens to be from a famous family in Ukraine and was responsible for organising medical care for demonstrators and police alike. She had noticed the bullet wounds had the same characteristics regardless of whether to demonstrators or police’.

                  The possibility there is that there was a blue-on-blue, and the snipers in the SBU building shot some of their own in the chaos. That is not incompatible with Bogomolets’ denial that the Maidan protestors were shot by their own people.

                  ‘(2). Why would she change her story or lie to the FM in the first place? Or why would he get the story wrong when it was so significant?’

                  She didn’t change her story. She did not allege that protestors were shot at by their own.

                  ‘(3). Correct. But it is beyond credulity to think that someone in her position would fabricate such an account, then deny it later. The significance of her account is enormous’.

                  Indeed. Everything you have said on this site is ‘beyond credulity’.

                  ‘(4). The key sentence in the article concerns “a US Intelligence source”.’

                  You’ve taken that out of context. The photos do not come from any Western intelligence agency, and their veracity is attested to by ex-SBU members.

                  It’s amazing what happens when you read an article in full, isn’t it?

                  ‘How on earth did US intelligence have someone on the ground – just at the point these armed men were in action?’

                  There is nothing in that article to suggest that there were indeed US spooks in Kiev at the time of the shootings. You have cherry-picked the sentence in which a ‘US intelligence source’ refers to the close links between the SBU and FSB, and either through intellectual dishonesty or stupidity have twisted that into a claim that they were not only present at the scene, but are the source of the pictures.

                  Is this another case of TL-DR?

                  ‘If the photos were taken by some innocent bystander, how come they were given to the US Intelligence source and not published elsewhere?’

                  See my point above.There is no hint (except due to your own illiteracy) that the footage and photos came from a US source.

                  ‘Finally, why would Russian marksmen kill police as well as demonstrators? It’s not like they’re worried about their reputation’.

                  Blue-on-blue, or acting as agents provocateurs. And as I said, the snipers were not necessarily Russians, but pro-Yanukovych security personnel.

                  If the photos were taken by some innocent bystander, how come they were given to the US Intelligence source and not published elsewhere?

                  ‘The voice recording I refer to is on the record, has been accepted by authentic by the Estonians’.

                  Let me repeat this point in the hope that it might permeate through the thickness of your skull. The Estonian F-M referred to a reported rumour. That is not the same as a statement of official government policy. And in case you haven’t noticed, the Estonians (like other regional governments) have not fallen for the BS about a violent and unprovoked coup against Yanukovych. No one has, except for eternally gullible souls like yourself.

                • br14

                  “The Estonian F-M referred to a reported rumour”

                  No he did not. Have you listened to the recording or read the transcript? The only reference that could be classified as rumour is that the doctor involved implied the snipers had been hired by opposition leaders. The primary point I was making is that the same snipers killed both demonstrators and police.

                  The point about the snipers being hired by the opposition is apparently now denied by the doctor who originally made the claim. Who knows why she has changed her mind. Evidently it took several days before she was available for comment.

                  Another doctor, (now Ukrainian Health Minister) also recognised the similarity in injuries, and suggested the actions were designed to topple Yanukovych. Though he believed the killings were initiated by Putin as part of a justification to annex Crimea. Which seems odd in the extreme since in doing so Putin has effectively lost influence over Ukraine.

                  http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2014/03/07/world/europe/ap-eu-ukraine-sniper-mystery.html?ref=world&_r=0

                  The fact is that the deaths caused the collapse of the Ukrainian parliament, and subsequently Yanukovych fled the country and was deposed.

                  Since Yanukovych woud have to be pretty dumb not to realise the impact of indiscriminate killing on his tenure as President, it’s a safe bet he was not behind the killings. (Especially since he was so fearful for his life and wellbeing he thought he should leave the country – hardly likely if he had the backing of the SBU).

                  Which leaves us with the reasonable option that the killings were part of a planned attempt to remove Yanukovych. Either by Russia as an excuse for an invasion, or by opposition forces as an excuse to install an appointed government.

                  Whatever the source of the photographs and video in the linked article, the fact is we have no proof they were taken on the day in question, no information as to their source, and no confirmation as to the contents. Any more than we do the Russian video of extreme right wing paramilitary forces in Ukraine making threats against Russian speakers in Ukraine.

                  What kind of person or organization would have had access to the SBU courtyard in order to take those photographs and acquire the video? And why having done so, were they released exclusively to The Daily Beast – a media organisation established by a major Democratic party supporter in the US?

                  What is clear is that a new Ukrainian government has been appointed – not elected – no doubt with help from the West – and their investigation into the killings is apparently being conducted by the same people the article claims performed the killings. Despite the fact there is now considerable negative sentiment toward Russia in Ukraine and the appointment of politicians less than sympathetic to the Russian world view.

                  “we are very worried that the people who are investigating are members of the bodies responsible for the shootings”.

                  Since we have little real evidence of what happened, we are left with no alternative but to work back from the results of this process.

                  And the outcome of these events is that a few weeks after Yanukovych rejected an EU bailout tied to strong austerity measures he was ousted from office.

                  This despite the fact that within a few months he would have been up for re-election.

                  The new Ukrainian regime has immediately acted to become linked to the EU and joint NATO exercises will begin shortly, thus posing a major threat to Russia influence in the region.

                  Clearly, those who desired closer ties to the EU felt they needed to act quickly. Partly to avoid being tied to a Russian bailout, and partly because an election in Ukraine would lead to an uncertain outcome.

                  Russia gets to annex Crimea – but in every other respect they lost out. They will now have a prospective NATO member on their doorstep .

                  And we’re supposed to believe that the EU and USA had absolutely no influence on events. Despite the fact that those events have considerably weakened Russian influence in the region.

                  Sorry I can’t buy that. It requires too much of a suspension of reality for this gullible soul to accept.

                • S&A

                  I have read the transcript of the call, and also seen that Paet (who – just to remind you – is not a native English speaker) is having trouble getting his point across to Ashton. Hence the mangled and confusing statement about the snipers.

                  As for the official Estonian position, you might have seen the following. Or maybe not:

                  http://www.vm.ee/?q=en/node/19353

                  #The recording of a telephone conversation between Foreign Minister Urmas Paet and High Representative Catherine Ashton that has been leaked online is authentic.

                  The conversation between Paet and Ashton took place on 26 February after the Estonian Foreign Minister’s return from his visit to Ukraine. His visit took place last week, soon after the end of street violence in Kyiv.

                  Foreign Minister Paet was giving an overview of what he had heard the previous day in Kyiv and expressed concern over the situation on the ground. We reject the claim that Paet was giving an assessment of the opposition’s involvement in the violence.

                  “It is extremely regrettable that phone calls are being intercepted,” said Paet. “The fact that this phone call has been leaked is not a coincidence,” added Paet’.

                  The last two paragraphs is a giveaway, isn’t it?

                  So much for your claim about the Estonians supporting the Maidan conspiracy theory. So much indeed for your statement about Dr Bogomolets backtracking from her original story.

                  As for your inane remarks about the source of the SBU photos, again, this is sheer waffle on your part. The ‘Daily Beast’ source strongly suggests that they came from opposition activists (and when regimes fall, all sorts of archival and photographic material becomes available), and that their veracity has been proven by ex-SBU officers. What part of that isn’t clear?

                  I know you’re going to keep flogging this decayed horse. I know that you choose to believe in the Machiavellian plans of Obama and Rompuy (I mean, seriously) rather than the real hegemonic intentions that Putin has towards Ukraine. I know that you’re also going to assume that rather than being fed up with a kleptocratic and corrupt government, you prefer to believe that the majority of Ukrainians are either fascists or dupes. Whatever. I can only suggest that you send your CV to RT. They seem to be running short of Anglophone stooges right now.

                • br14

                  I think we’ve done this to death. Thanks for enlightening me. You’re not going to move from your narrow acceptance of the superficial, and I’m certainly not persuaded by your comments.

                  The Estonians had no choice but to deny, and I heard the recording. He clearly understood the admitted rumour that opposition forces had engaged the snipers. His comments drew the word “interesting” from Baroness Ashton. Truly remarkable.

                  That conclusion by the way is reinforced by the current Ukrainian Health Minister – though his interpretation is that Putin arranged the killings as a means to topple Yanukovych.

                  You don’t explain how an “opposition activist” got access to record photographs etc INSIDE an SBU compound except to suggest it became public as a result of the regime falling. Which might have made sense had the article not claimed the individuals in the photos were destroying evidence. Bizarre. And even if it were true, why choose The Daily Beast – why not a major newspaper or even the Kyiv Post. I think we both know why.

                  My comments above have had their veracity proven by an ex-CIA official. :-)

                  By the way, Van Rompuy – a figure of fun for Nigel Farage – is in fact an astute and aggressive politician who isn’t averse to taking any and all opportunities to get what he wants. You should check out his history and in particular his record on democracy.

                  Anyway, thanks. If anything you’ve reinforced my sense there is intrigue behind these events. And I have to say, I now wonder whether Putin might have been dumb enough to overthrow Yanukovuch – seems highly unlikely but perhaps he is that stupid.

                  You might also want to read the following.

                  http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/367de268-8f41-11e3-be85-00144feab7de.html#axzz2xfBJYL2Thttp://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/367de268-8f41-11e3-be85-00144feab7de.html#axzz2xfBJYL2T

                • S&A

                  ‘You’re not going to move from your narrow acceptance of the superficial’

                  Says the man who didn’t do his homework on the Youtube clip he listened to.

                  ‘The Estonians had no choice but to deny’.

                  So they’re running scared of the big bad conspiracy linking the Ukrainian fascists with Baroness Ashton. This just gets better and better.

                  ‘That conclusion by the way is reinforced by the current Ukrainian Health Minister – though his interpretation is that Putin arranged the killings as a means to topple Yanukovych’.

                  So you’re basically admitting that the opposition didn’t shoot their own after all? Nice one. Incidentally, the Health Minister is also on record here.

                  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-snipers-that-caused-chaos-during-february-protests-in-kiev-were-russianbacked-says-minister-9179102.html

                  ‘You don’t explain how an “opposition activist” got access to record photographs etc INSIDE an SBU compound except to suggest it became public as a result of the regime falling. Which might have made sense had the article not claimed the individuals in the photos were destroying evidence’.

                  Back in November 1989 the East German Stasi made a stab of destroying all the incriminating evidence it had in its archives, but lacked the time to do so before the crowds turned up. There are precedents for these things happening, particularly when autocracies collapse.

                  ‘And even if it were true, why choose The Daily Beast – why not a major newspaper or even the Kyiv Post. I think we both know why’.

                  Er, because it’s an international news outlet that (when it was in print) produced the weekly ‘Newsweek’. And as for reasons why not, you appear to be speculating again.

                  ‘My comments above have had their veracity proven by an ex-CIA official’.

                  Really? Do tell.

                  ‘By the way, Van Rompuy – a figure of fun for Nigel Farage – is in fact an astute and aggressive politician who isn’t averse to taking any and all opportunities to get what he wants. You should check out his history and in particular his record on democracy’.

                  So this minor Flemish politician is a past master at black ops and completely deniable covert action, and has the ability to fool the world’s media and manipulate governments, is he?

                  This just gets better and better. It’s almost like a pandemic of stupid.

              • Tom Tom

                She never claimed to know anything about who contracted the snipers

                • S&A

                  And indeed, she also never claimed that the demonstrators had come under fire from their own side.

                  Thank you for proving my point.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            That Daily Beast story is bogus. Those photographs show nothing untoward, and certainly nothing that indicates an organized sniper effort, as the idiots are proclaiming.

            • S&A

              Nice one, Squealer.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …is that supposed to mean something to us, Pot?

                • S&A

                  It’s a reference taken from something called ‘a book’.

                  I made the mistake of assuming that you might have read one. At least one without coloured pictures in it.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …again, is that supposed to mean something to us, Pot?

                • S&A

                  Yep, it means that you’re a moron.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …no, that term is reserved with you fantastical drooling morons who fantasize that disjointed reports and some scattered collection of photographs is supposed to mean something.

                  Like you, you drooling moron.

                • S&A

                  Wow, such a witty put-down. From someone who can barely string a sentence together.

                  It’s 4.40pm by my watch. When did you start hitting the sauce?

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …have you checked with the family dog yet, moron?

                • S&A

                  I am trying to decode this reference.

                  I think it’s something to do with ‘the hair of the dog that bit you’. Which might have something to do with the complete incoherence of your comments.

                  Still, if you’re sozzled, it must be difficult to type, mustn’t it? And it might explain why you keep repeating yourself, if you’re seeing double under the influence …

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …just go to his usual spots, and when you find him, ask him if he has delusions about secret sniper teams and such.

                • S&A

                  Well even by your standards that was spectacularly incoherent.

                  You thought of giving AA a call?

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …he’s likely too well adjusted and intelligent to believe such insanity, even if you do.

    • Guest

      The EU never actively sought to overthrow the Ukrainian government, this was a product of a collective which primarily identified with the ‘people’ of Ukraine. Whether any revolution can truly be representative of all the people is always a matter of contention, but there is no doubt that:
      i)a vast majority of people were dissatisfied with the government
      ii)any ‘elections’ were not truly democratic when conducted in an atmosphere of hostility and state antagonism of opposition

      iii)the use of disproportionate force against protestors
      The state did not wield any form of true public support, and whilst the overthrowing of the government might not have been a ‘good’ thing in terms of the stability of the Ukraine, we can be certain of two things:
      a)the EU never caused it, it was the product of public anger against the state
      b)Russia’s response in moving unidentifiable military units into the region were threatening and illegal

      • the viceroy’s gin

        i) You have no proof of this assertion.

        ii) We’ve seen worse, and approved by the bien pensant crowd, too.

        iii) That cuts all ways, and thus is a non-discriminator.

        a) You have no proof of this assertion.

        b) Russia had treaty rights to have military units in that region, and these were already in place, and not “moved”. They may be threatening, but they are legal, and your assertion is proven false.

        • Curnonsky

          Your last assertion assumes that all those heavily armed men in combat gear who took over Ukrainian government buildings and military installations were just simple, ordinary citizens? Come off it.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            First, I made no “assertion”, and merely posted known knowns.

            Second, I “assumed” nothing, least of all your fantasies, and merely posted known knowns.

            Third, thoughtful people don’t “come off” known knowns, because they’re thoughtful people, unlike you.

            • Curnonsky

              Your “known knowns” were last seen driving tanks through the gates of the Ukrainian military bases.

              • Tom Tom

                I doubt they drove tanks …..maybe APCs

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …which, as I say, they have treaty rights to do, lad.

                • Curnonsky

                  “Treaty? I don’t need no steenking treaty!”

                  V. Putin

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …maybe not, but as we know, he has one. It’s a known known.

                • Tom Tom

                  Clearly not, the one the US signed with Gorbachev was violated by NATO

          • Tom Tom

            Russia can station 25,000 troops in Crimea by treaty……I am more concerned with Turkish soldiers arming rebels in Syria and providing artillery support with Erdogan trying to start a war for NATO to fight and keep him in power…….crumbling Ottomans and Russia facing threats from the west do not make for happy outcomes

      • Colin

        So, you don’t think that the EU’s sudden, public, about face on the credibility and legitimacy of Yukashenko had anything to do with the escalation of violence in Maidan Square?

        After all, when he was considering taking the EU’s money, he was apparently OK. But, as soon as he decided to take Putin’s money, he was a pariah and a despot and had to be removed at all costs.

        • Tom Tom

          It was Privy Sektor that overturned the Agreement brokered by France, Poland and Germany within hours

        • goatmince

          Yet, now that the Russo-Scottish navy have what they want, it is now increasingly likely the rumpUK-raine will get what they want.
          Beautiful, it’s a deja vu.

          • Colin

            ???

      • Tom Tom

        It was Privy Sektor which did it, the rest were bystanders

      • br14

        “ii)any ‘elections’ were not truly democratic when conducted in an atmosphere of hostility and state antagonism of opposition”

        That might be true were it not that the previous elections organised under the same process elected a Euro friendly president.

        One thing is certain, Ukraine no longer has a democratically elected government but rather one organised by the West.

        And the loss of Crimea almost certainly guarantees the election of a Euro friendly government. I wonder if they’ll face the same austerity measures Yanukovych rejected?

    • tjamesjones

      then get off this blog entry. You are off topic.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        Are we to assume that you believe this “blog entry” is something other than whimsy, and actually has a “topic” ?

        • tjamesjones

          guess so viceroy, i guess so.

      • Tom Tom

        Who actually give a damn about the “American Right” ? Most of it seems
        to be former Trots who have mutated into Fascists in the US Political
        Machine. The rest were duped by Bush and Cheney and then spewed out

    • Curnonsky

      Odd, then, that the citizens of Ukraine are not occupying Maidan square in protest at this moment? Perhaps they have been brainwashed by the formidable EU propaganda, espionage and sabotage machine? Are Rumpy and the mad Baroness at this moment wearing matching Mao suits and stroking cats in their supervillain lair (located under an extinct volcano somewhere in Luxembourg)?

      Thanks heavens you have seen through their evil game!

      • Tom Tom

        They are stunned by cuts to pensions and 50% increase in energy prices…….

      • goatmince

        dumbest comment so far – both these clowns hold no actual power.

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