Coffee House

Jose Manuel Barroso: “Extremely difficult, if not impossible” for a separate Scotland to join the EU

16 February 2014

2:48 PM

16 February 2014

2:48 PM

Jose Manuel Barroso has said before that Scotland would have to apply separately to join the EU if it became independent. But his remarks today on the Andrew Marr Show were far more pessimistic about the prospects of that application being successful. After the three main Westminster parties blew a hole in the reassuring argument that Alex Salmond has been making so far that Scotland could keep the pound, Barroso effectively reminded Scots this morning that a ‘Yes’ vote won’t just mean ‘Yes’ to independence, it will mean ‘Yes’ to leaving the EU too. He said:

‘First of all, I don’t want now to go into hypothetical questions. What I can say is the following: we respect the democratic process going on; it’s for the Scottish people and for the British citizens to decide about that, that future of Scotland. What you said is perfectly right – in case there is a new country, a new state coming out of a current member state, it will have to apply and – this is very important – the application and the accession to the European Union would have to be approved by all the other member states.

‘I don’t want to interfere, I repeat, on your referendum here and your democratic discussion here, but of course it will be extremely difficult to get the approval of all the other member states to have a new member coming from one member state. We have seen that Spain has been opposing even the recognition of Kosovo, for instance, so it’s to some extent a similar case because it’s a new country and so I believe it’s going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, a new member state coming out of one of our countries getting the agreement of the other [existing member states].’

 

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Unsurprisingly, the SNP haven’t taken it well. Finance Minister John Swinney called Barroso’s remarks ‘preposterous’ on the Sunday Politics:

‘President Barroso’s remarks are pretty preposterous this morning. He’s set out his position linking and comparing Scotland to the situation in Kosovo. Scotland’s been a member of the EU for 40 years, we’re already part of the European Union.’

This is an interesting way of applying for membership. And an interesting way of viewing the Union: Swinney says ‘Scotland’s been a member of the Eu for 40 years’, but it’s Britain that has been a member. Barroso is saying that the EU regards the distinction as significant, even if the SNP doesn’t.

In a sense, the EU question is even more serious than that over the currency, as the SNP doesn’t have the wriggle room to set out ‘other options’ as it did after George Osborne, Ed Balls and Danny Alexander ruled out currency union between the rest of the UK and independent Scotland. And the choreography of this latest intervention from Barroso, straight after that cross-party pact on the pound and Mark Carney’s speech on the currency union, is extremely helpful to the ‘No’ campaign.


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Show comments
  • Thomtids

    I don’t see how, if Scotland is identified as a constituent part of the EU by its “membership” of the UK, England can remain as a constituent of the EU if Scotland leaves the UK.
    Our membership is either as a “married couple” or not. If by seceding from the UK Scotland ceases to be a part of the EU and will be required to rejoin ab initio then, surely, England’s membership is revoked also.
    If not, why not?

  • Jambo25

    Rather than simply flinging insults back and forward might I suggest that people go onto You Tube and access the hours of testimony, from various academic experts and EU insiders. Even those who have Unionist sympathies do not agree with Barosso. Don’t believe me, however, do as I suggest above.

  • SimonToo

    If you dissolve a union, neither part is “the remainder”. If only one part is allowed to remain a member of the EU, why doesn’t England and Wales keep the pound sterling, and Scotland keeps the EU membership. If England and Wales want to be members of the EU, they can apply to join in the fullness of time.

    • Tim Reed

      Not quite the case, I think. The United Kingdom consists of 4 components. Scotland would be deciding to leave that union. The union itself would remain intact, albeit with one less member.

      • SimonToo

        If you dissolve the union of Great Britain, the foundation of the union with Northern Ireland is dissolved. It is not united with England & Wales; it is not united with Scotland. It is united with Great Britain so if you dissolve Great Britain, Northern Ireland is no longer united with anywhere else. (Unless you are suggesting that it will be in two unions : one with Scotland and the other with England & Wales).

  • Vector

    Isn’t this a bit like joining the Warsaw Pact in 1989?

  • Tom M

    I would be surprised if Barroso knew where Scotland was.

    • http://www.DNotice.org/ Dean Jackson

      “I would be surprised if Barroso knew where Scotland was.”

      Jose Barroso knows where Moscow and Beijing are, and that allows him to sleep well at night. I intend to give him severe insomnia.

  • Alex Creel

    Its at times like these when he’s standing up for European democracy that I’m really glad I voted for Barroso…oh wait…

  • http://www.DNotice.org/ Dean Jackson

    For those of you not in the know, the EU will soon collapse (Moscow & Allies have already tasked the implosion of the EU, or haven’t you noticed the dire economic situation in the EU yet?):

    “Editor’s Note: The phrases ‘From the Atlantic to the Urals’, ‘From the Atlantic to Vladivostok’ and ‘From Vancouver to Vladivostok’ are interchangeable in the strategists’ lexicon. In the course of his Nobel Peace Prize Lecture, delivered in Oslo in June 1992, Gorbachev said: ‘Our [sic] vision of the European space from the Atlantic to the Urals is not that of a closed system. Since it includes the Soviet Union [sic], which reaches to the shores of the Pacific, it goes beyond nominal geographical boundaries’. Note that Gorbachev, who had been out of office for six months, referred to the Soviet Union, not Russia. In an interview on Moscow Television on 19 November 1991, Eduard Shevardnadze continued speaking as though he was still Soviet Foreign Minister: ‘I think that the idea of a Common European Home, the building of a united Europe, and I would like to underline today, of great Europe, the building of Great Europe, great, united Europe, from the Atlantic to the Urals, from the Atlantic to Vladivostok, including all our territory, most probably a European-Asian space, this project is inevitable. I am sure that we will come to building a united military space as well. To say more precisely: we will build a united Europe, whose security will be based on the principles of collective security. Precisely, collective security’. These statements by key implementers of the strategy reflect the central strategic objective of asserting ‘irreversible’ Russian/Soviet hegemony over Eurasia, thus establishing the primary geographical component of the intended World Government.” — ‘The Perestroika Deception’, by KGB defector Major Anatoliy Golitsyn.

    http://www.spiritoftruth.org/The_Perestroika_Deception.pdf

    and here’s more on the upcoming “Atlantic to Vladivostok” union…

    http://www.russkiymir.ru/russkiymir/en/publications/interview/interview0004.html

    When the new “Atlantic to Vladivostok” union materializes, Communist strategists will have achieved two goals, (1) the further isolation of the United States in the world; and (2) the disbanding of NATO.

    The Communists want a United Kingdom should Scotland NOT want to join the EU upon independence, however I want a Union Jack with the cross of Saint Andrew on it to destroy the still existing USSR…

    Take a look at these pictures out of Russia…

    http://www.airliners.net/photo/Russia—Air/Antonov-An-12BK-PPS/1584360/L/

    and

    http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/su-47-berkut-russia/p6041-su-47-berkut.html

    Then for Russian Naval vessels, take a look at what’s still appended to the bow (enlarge picture)…

    http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/9225/

    Those pictures were taken in 2009, 2004 and 2013, respectively, not before the “collapse” of the USSR. As you can see, the distinct Soviet era nationality emblem of the Communist Party…the distinct-designed Red Star… is still present. That political symbol of the Soviet government would have been immediately removed in early 1992 if the “collapse” of the USSR were genuine. As the legal emblem of the USSR and the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, the distinctive Red Star nationality emblem can only be present if Communists are still in power in Russia and the other 14 republics that made up the USSR.

    Take a look at what’s still on Aeroflot aircraft…

    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2013-8/31/316500.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/316500/vp-bdn-aeroflot-airbus-a319/&h=853&w=1200&sz=342&tbnid=LpEalOG0f8GrcM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=142&zoom=1&usg=__G489DWC7zsP5bnmGg5-Pi0QB8xs=&docid=xUpoGn9FHxnMDM&sa=X&ei=evRRUtGuJNGs4APLsoDICg&ved=0CC4Q9QEwAA

    Note the Soviet emblem of the hammer & sickle stenciled on the Aeroflot aircraft’s fuselage!

    Now, for the main paper of the Russian Ministry of Defense…

    http://www.redstar.ru/

    “Krasnaya Zvezda” is Russian (no kidding!) for “Red Star”, the official newspaper of Soviet and later Russian Ministry of Defense. The paper’s official designation is, “Central Organ of the Russian Ministry of Defense.” Note the four Soviet emblems next to the still existing Soviet era masthead, one of which pictures Lenin’s head, the man who removed the independent Russian nation from the map, supplanting it within the new nation called the USSR (the USSR being the nation that was to one day include all the nations of the Earth, incorporation taking place either by violent revolution or deception)! Those Soviet emblems and Lenin’s head can’t still be next to the masthead of the Russian Ministry of Defense’s newspaper due to their association with the Soviet Union and its ideals of world revolution; the nations of the world constituting the Soviet Union!

    The fraudulent “collapse” of the USSR (and East Bloc) couldn’t have been pulled off until both political parties in the United States (and political parties elsewhere in the West) were co-opted by Moscow & Allies, which explains why verification of the “collapse” was never undertaken by the West, such verification being (1) a natural administrative procedure (since the USSR wasn’t occupied by Western military forces); and (2) necessary for the survival of the West. Recall President Reagan’s favorite phrase, “Trust, but verify”. Notice that not one political party in the West demanded verification, and the media failed to alert your attention to this fact, including the “alternative” media. When determining whether the “former” USSR is complying with arms control treaties, what does the United States do to confirm compliance? Right, the United States sends into the “former” USSR investigative teams to VERIFY compliance, yet when it’s the fate of the West that’s at stake should the collapse of the USSR be a ruse, what does the United States do to confirm the collapse? Nothing!

    In addition, the KGB agent Quislings that controlled the Russian Orthodox Church before the “collapse” of the USSR are to this day still in control. They were never identified and thrown out of that institution after the “collapse” of the USSR. The same is true for all other religious institutions in the other 14 republics of the USSR, including East Bloc nations, proving not only co-option of those religious institutions, but that the “collapses” of the East Bloc and USSR were disinformation operations:

    http://sofiaecho.com/2012/01/17/1747052_eleven-out-of-15-members-of-bulgarian-orthodox-churchs-holy-synod-worked-for-communist-state-security

    For those unfamiliar with this subject, the “collapse” of the USSR in 1991 was a strategic ruse under the “Long-Range Policy” (LRP). What is the LRP, you ask? The LRP is the “new” strategy all Communist nations signed onto in 1960 to defeat the West with. The last major disinformation operation under the LRP was the “collapse” of the USSR in 1991.

    The next major disinformation operation under the LRP will be the fraudulent collapse of the Chinese Communist government. When that occurs, Taiwan will be stymied from not joining the mainland. This is why China is buying up gold all over the word. It is believed that China currently has 3,000 [metric] tonnes of gold. When China has 6,000 [metric] tonnes it will have the minimum gold reserves necessary for its currency, the yuan, to replace the United States’ dollar as the world’s reserve currency, that is after the fraudulent collapse of the Chinese Communist government (the United States gold reserves is approximately 8,133.5 [metric] tonnes).

    For more on the “Long-Range Policy”, read KGB defector Major Anatoliy Golitsyn’s books, “New Lies for Old” and “The Perestroika Deception” , the only Soviet era defector to still be under protective custody in the West:

    https://archive.org/details/GolitsynAnatoleTheNewLiesForOldOnes

    http://www.spiritoftruth.org/The_Perestroika_Deception.pdf

    The following is an excellent brief three-page introduction to Golitsyn and his significance in understanding Communist long-range strategy:

    http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/archived/looking.htm

  • Jambo25

    I think before commenting on this article and Barroso’s answer to Marr it might be an idea to read John Palmer’s piece in today’s Guardian. Palmer (Love him or loathe him as a Guardianista.) probably knows as much about the technicalities and mood music of the EU as anybody alive. His assessment of both the statement and Barroso is utterly damning and probably not what the average ‘Speccie’ reader wants to see.

  • justejudexultionis

    This is not secession by Scotland but the creation of two new countries out of one existing one: in which case, both iScotland and rUK will have to reapply for membership. To require iScotland to renegotiate entry while allowing rUK to continue as a full member would surely represent a travesty of international law.

    SAOR ALBA – AN DRASTA!

    • Wessex Man

      “I believe in angels in everything they say”

    • serialluncher

      But Barroso didn’t mention that. The issue is based on politics – not legal paperwork or what you think it means. They want to make an example of Scotland – pour encourager les autres like regional nationalists in other EU member states.

    • Mike

      As England is a net contributor to the EU its highly unlikely that we would have to re-apply and even if we had to go through the formalities, it would be a slam dunk. The EU needs our contribution and Germany would NOT be willing to pick up any shortfall if we were ‘kicked’ out.

      For Scotland, its a completely different scenario as regional separatist groups across the EU will be demanding equal treatment if Scotland is let in without any fuss. Who knows what the consequences in Belgium of Spain (as an example) will be if their separatists get going !

  • aurila

    rubbish, the EU will take anyone that is vaguely European

    • Tony Quintus

      Perhaps, but the Scottish application would not be fast tracked and certainly not maintain the current UK opt outs.

  • serialluncher

    Salmond and the Yes Scotland campaign is absolutely totalled. I thought he was supposed to be canny. If I were a Scot I’d be dead nervous about having him in charge.

    • justejudexultionis

      That’s not what the polls say. All recent polls have indicated an increase in support for YES, and we can expect that to continue through to September.

      • serialluncher

        Those polls are from before the Barroso bombshell. I suspect many SNP supporters are in denial, trying to convince themselves that this is all smoke and mirrors and somehow it’ll be alright on the night. Others will have grasped the gravity of the situation. Nobody I know in England supports providing a guarantee to the Scots should you leave especially given the counter-productive threats from the fragrant Nicola Sturgeon.

  • Hillymudmash

    Alex Salmond, aged 18:

    “Mum, Dad, I’m leaving home. I’m independent now. Oh, and if you don’t do my laundry every week, you’re a bully.”

  • Trapnel

    Who elected emperor-for-life Barroso?

    • M2

      Funny that Farage asked the same question and was chased out of Scotland by people calling him a racist

      • justejudexultionis

        Farage isn’t a racist (his wife is German) but he is just another public schoolboy from the south-east of England in the pocket of his City paymasters.

        • Wessex Man

          oh my word He’s a racist because his wife is from Germany, you do come up with them!

  • e2toe4

    Alex Salmond’s referendum ‘campaign’ may in reality be more directed at the post-referendum Holyrood election, apparently being designed to speak to his core and ‘near’-core vote rather than to the people he needs to win over; those people not in agreement with him initially.

    That endless assertions cannot successfully take the place of hypothetical aspirations is as obvious the man and woman on the Clackmannanshire omnibus as to everyone else.

    I feel interpreting this as a weakness misses the real point.

    In the last couple of days every major political party in the UK has said they WON’T negotiate over ‘sharing’ the £, Barroso is saying what he IS saying, more major retailers are saying prices WILL rise, and while these and more of the same type of things may well start to impact on the minds of unconvinced Scots voters..and the polls…….. that doesn’t mean he loses.

    At least not in terms of the real aim of the campaign anyway, which seems to be more clearly aimed at shoring up that ‘high tide’ vote, achieved last time by the SNP at Holyrood, than persuading the unpersuaded that independence is desirable.

  • M2

    I expect the separatists to tell us that they never really wanted EU membership anyway; that it was just a trap that the clever Mr Salmond set up and the unionists fell right into it. Now that EU membership is denied Mr Salmond is free to pursue what he really wants – a political union with North Korea

  • CharlietheChump

    Oh dear, so we’re stuck with them, whining and all.

  • Michael Rossi

    So we’re out of the EU either way then – a yes vote meaning, according to Barroso it’s impossible to rejoin, and a no vote followed by the proposed EU referendum in 2017 where Scotland’s vote is irrelevant in mathematical terms (ie if England votes to leave then even if all Scotland voted to remain it wouldn’t make the slightest bit of difference)

    • HookesLaw

      If all Yorkshire voted to leave and all the rest of the country voted to stay it would be the same democratic outcome.
      BTW
      What might be more interesting is if Shetlands vote overwhelmingly No in the referendum and the rest of Scotland were for some strange reason to vote Yes.

      • Michael Rossi

        True but Yorkshire is a region of England not a country as Scotland is. As regards Shetland – that would be interesting but polls show it being not much different from the rest of Scotland in terms of voting intentions. If the scenario you describe were to come about then the people of Shetland would have to make their intentions clear – but for themselves and their own interests not to please the wet dreams of divide and conquer types who find it politically useful to say “but ah, what about Shetland and Orkney”.

        • HookesLaw

          Last time I looked Yorkshire was part of Great Britain. So is Scotland. We all went into two world wars together.

          • MichtyMe

            We went into war together with many States, Nations and Peoples, even the Bolshevik Soviets….SO?

          • Michael Rossi

            Yes indeed and something we should all be proud of (fighting together in two world wars) – my point is simply that the UK is a union of nations, not simply a union of regions. Hence separate teams in the Commonwealth games etc. It’s perfectly true that if there’s a no vote in September and a yes to leaving the EU in 2017 that EU minded Scots could hardly complain, a democratic vote would have happened fair and square. My original point still stands though – if Barroso is to be believed an independent Scotland would find it impossible to rejoin the EU (although a fair dose of politicking is going on with his statement) and if Scotland is still part of the UK in 2017 then regardless of how it votes the result will be decided where the majority of voters reside, ie England. That’s simply a hard numerical fact, not a complaint (as I said, if Scotland votes to remain in the UK it’d be hard to make a serious complaint about an EU withdrawal). That hard numerical reality also puts paid to the ridiculous notion that without Scottish Labour MPs there’d be permanent Tory government in a Scotland-less UK.

          • Wessex Man

            I doubt you went to war anywhere, you strike me as the type who send others to war!

        • Fergus Pickering

          What makes Scotland a country? Because you say it is?

          • Michael Rossi

            No, clearly not because I say it is – a mixture of history, international recognition / interaction and a body of people whose national identity at least in part is based upon associating with that defined land mass and culture (in its broadest sense). I’d certainly call Scotland a nation as I would England – those nations through the various machinations of history grew up and coalesced. The Act of Union in 1707 was signed by two sovereign parliaments and that union didn’t dissolve those nations. I’m not sure to be honest how I’d differentiate between a nation and a country, if there is a difference.

        • e2toe4

          The Glasgow side really hate the Edinburgh side and vice versa..and the Highlands and Islands can’t stand the central belt..there was an enormous outcry when dualling the A9 got binned so John Swinney could hand over £500M to Edinburgh City council. The idea Scotland is some mad hobbit land where all live in joy and harmony is both delusional, and really, a bit demeaning to scotland.

          • Michael Rossi

            I’ve not come across anyone who thinks Scotland is a land of perpetual peace and harmony, although if they did, I agree, they’d be delusional (and demented). Still, regional and city rivalries are normal in every country (Liverpool and Manchester come to mind; Oxford and Cambridge). So the word hate is too strong.

            • e2toe4

              You are right…’hate’ is too strong a word… I’ll withdraw that for sure.

              My point was to make clear the point you also make — the same rivalries within Scotland that ARE there in any country, and are one reason the polls show such strong support for staying together in the UK rather than splitting up and going it alone with the SNP.

              The main point though is just like Alex Salmond you create false conclusions from false premises– that in the event of an in/out referendum Scotland will be ‘out anyway’ as the population is insignificant in overall size.

              But the idea that England, Wales and Northern Ireland will just vote all one way, to leave, while Scotland would vote the opposite way, is far from proven…indeed it’s possible there may be a very close split vote and the block voting Scots (obviously voting to leave) could swing the entire country out…or perhaps obviously voting to stay could keep the entire UK in.

              Unlike you I don’t know how the voting in the referendum, if ever held, will go…

              • Michael Rossi

                I should have made clear (and apologise for not doing so) that I didn’t intend to say that Scotland would vote one way in the EU referendum and the rest of the UK, merely that should a situation arise where a majority in England vote one way and Scotland another then indeed due to population size it would be irrelevant. I guess i was being fatalistic in my comments, not claiming absolute and certain prescience. you are of course correct to point out that the vote in such a referendum is far from certain. Indeed in reality I doubt there would be a block vote in Scotland. Given where we are politically though as the UK, should one part influence the result as you describe I can imagine that will be a lot of agro and pointing ot fingers, alas

      • saffrin

        That’s a scary thought if true. If Yorkshire had it’s way we could all end up Pakistani.

        • HookesLaw

          Ah – its taken a long time but you have managed to bring in Pakistan.
          Under Saffrin’s Law we must now close this discussion.

          • saffrin

            They might force Allah on us.

          • Two Bob

            Green party mole alert!

        • Tony Quintus

          That would be strange considering the county is circa 90% white british

  • alabenn

    So the EU can de facto take the citizenship away from Scots, who have been European for thousands of years and citizens of this body since joining over 30 years ago.

    This will be good to know if any country wants to remove citizenship from more recent arrivals to their shores.

    • HookesLaw

      How can the EU take Scottish citizenship away from the citizens of an independent Scottish nation?
      Of course it cannot and your words are bunkum.

      • alabenn

        You are now acting like a typical leftie, deliberately misconstruing words, citizens of this body, is what I said.
        After all were people not told they are EU citizens, I do not suppose you would really care to correct your erroneous missive.

        • HookesLaw

          Whose a lefty?
          ‘So the EU can de facto take the citizenship away from Scots’ – is what you say.
          I repeat how can they take Scottish citizenship away?
          As someone else points out EU ‘citizenship’ is open to EU members. Scotland leave the EU – it is not an EU member.

          • Daniel Maris

            “open”…a typical misue of language. EU citizenship is compulsory for all citizens of member states. It is for the EU to explain how one can be an EU citizen one moment and then have it taken away from you by the EU.

            • HookesLaw

              Yes ‘open’ is the wrong word.
              If someone – in this case Scotland – leaves the EU it loses its right to EU citizenship. It will gain it by successfully applying to join. ‘Scotland’ is not in the EU. A new state would not be in the EU ergo its citizens would not be EU citizens. The EU is not taking anything away. But you have had all this explained to you – and you are not listening.
              An ‘EU citizen’ is a bogus term anyway.

          • M2

            There is no such thing as “EU citizenship”. You are a citizen of a EU member state i.e the UK. If you choose to leave the UK you are no longer a UK citizen, thus your connection to the EU ends. Simples

            • Conway

              Good point. Vote yes!

              • Wessex Man

                none of us are citizens, we are subjects, carry on Hooky!

          • Two Bob

            I dont know whos a lefty, but we all know who is a phoney Tory. Nudge nudge wink wink.

      • saffrin

        If Scotland vote yes they won’t be an independent nation once they rejoin the EU.
        Why do you think Brussels forces third world immigrants on us if not to destroy ALL sense of national identity?
        You really do have your head in your a** Hooky.

        • HookesLaw

          I am trying to keep things simple. The irony of Salmond wanting (at least originally) of wanting to leave the UK and join the EU and the Euro has not I assure you been lost to me. No one is forcing third world immigrants on us. The situation might be different if we have to join Schengen as part of some fancy trade deal as postulated by Saint Nigel.

          And disconcerting though the image may be I can also assure you that I can see further with my head up my a** than you can with your binoculars on the top of Blackpool Tower.

  • FrankS2

    An independent Scotland would be treated as a new state and need to apply to join join the EU, Says Barrosso. Might not same apply to the remainder of the post Scotland UK?

    • mahatmacoatmabag

      hopefully it would & that Scotland will be accepted for membership and mercifully for the rest of the UK our application gets Rejected !

    • MichtyMe

      Yes, the UK parliament would have created the two states within the the EU and the only way for one or both to be out is for the EU unanimously to decide to do that, most unlikely.

      • Michael Mckeown

        The UK parliament simply cant unilateral add new member states to the EU I’m afraid so based on that fact your argument fails.

        • HookesLaw

          Yes. The UK parliament in fact cannot unilaterally create any states. It would allow Scotland to secede but its then up to Scotland to decide what to do with itself – it could apply to join the USA for instance.

    • Nicholas chuzzlewit

      That would be nice but sadly the UK will remain part of the EU.

    • Damon

      Of COURSE not. That would effectively entail expelling England from the EU. To give one reason, out of dozens, why that wouldn’t happen: the Germans are anxious to keep us in.

      • Conway

        Indeed! Without our cash they would be bankrolling the whole thing.

      • Mike

        As we saw with the Euro bail outs inside the EU, when it comes to money and their master plan, EU rules can be torn up to try and keep the Eurotrain on the tracks. As much as they might like to, they wouldn’t dare try and kick England out as they need our money so desperately.

    • Daniel Maris

      Of course it should. But it looks like there is an alignment of interest against that happening.

  • ryongsong

    It would be a funny situation where all the Scots remained EU citizens (they have UK passports) but their country is not in the EU. A bit different from Kosovo, IMHO. And a bit of a nightmare for all the non-UK EU citizens and businesses in Scotland.

  • BarkingAtTreehuggers

    Let’s face it – Barroso said nothing again (!), but even if we assumed for once he did then (a) he will not be in position to confirm anything when D Day finally comes and then of course (b) – he either is an eejit or he isn’t.
    You cannot have it both ways.

    • Alexsandr

      depends who is yanking his chain. Merkel?

    • HookesLaw

      He is giving his opinion, read what he said. He is suggesting the likeliest scenario.

      • Two Bob

        Go and kiss him then.

        • Wessex Man

          what sort of stupid comment is that? Barroso would break the land speed record, Hooky would never get near him!

  • allymax bruce

    Well, if John Swinney isn’t bothered about what Barosso says, then neither am I. I trust John Swinney more than I trust the slimey Marxist lackie Barosso!
    Like balloon face, Sanctimony, and Sanctimonious git, Barosso neither has the qualification, nor the expediency to disclaim iScotland’s transition into the EU; none of them will be in the position to negotiate iScotland in the EU ! This is only more pathetic Westminster lackies lining up to scaremonger Scots & Scotland. Besides, maybe with all the current troubles because of Barosso’s ineptitude as European Commission errand-boy, the shambolic Lisbon Treaty, and the curent dislike of the ‘current set-up’ (Barosso!), by other member states, maybe iScotland would look twice at joining the EU !

    • Alexsandr

      iscotland. and ihaggis and isporran. i spose to go with you iphone,ipad and ipod.

    • anyfool

      Barroso is a non entity , he is just a mouth that opens and shuts, what comes out between these two actions bears no resemblance to reality, like Osborne and Balls on the pound, the real reality is that if Scotland was treated as these two fools say, the economy of both countries will be all but destroyed.
      Scotland will have to reflect on its belief that the Scottish Labour party actually stands for Scotland, it is nothing short of treacherous.

      • Michael Mckeown

        He is largely a non entity and I would compare him to a puppet that says whatever the combined EU member states want him to say because lets face it he is not getting the opinion he has from thin air.

        • HookesLaw

          That is the point – he is just giving the received wisdom of the rest of the EU states. The future membership of the EU is down to the current membership and Salmond cannot expect automatic entry.

          • Michael Mckeown

            The separatists dont seem to be getting the point though, not unusual I know.

      • Tony Quintus

        What he is, is Spanish, and given that it would most likely be Spain that nixed Scottish entry into the EU I think he can speak with at least som authority.

    • Wessex Man

      You live in this little cosy dream world where everything is nice and soft and everyone loves you scots because you all are so soft and loving and Hooky now wants to be known as MacHooky.

    • e2toe4

      John Swinney gave Edinburgh Council £500M without any oversight or attention.

      3 years later when they had blown £420M for absolutely nothing, in a panic he blackmailed the Council into borrowing another £276M (total cost with interest £700M plus over the 30 year payback time)

      He did this by saying the council would have to pay back the final installment of the original £500M.

      Now Edinburgh has half a tram track, a congestion and pollution problem..is hundreds of millions down for decades ahead and all because John Swinney handed over a suitcase full of cash with no strings.

      Oh and as well as handing over the money to Edinburgh and then thinking no more of it….and annoying everyone who felt it could have been better spent on the notorious A9 road North to Aberdeenshire and Inverness…the SNP have sat through 2 ruling administration coalitions during which the disaster has snowballed ever onward … steadfastly saying ‘they are not in favour of it’…

      There’s ineptitude and ineptitude and like many in Edinburgh the experience of SNP politicians saying one thing and doing another, or in the case of John Swinney and his colleagues doing absolutely nothing until it was far too late, has been a sobering one.

      There will be a public enquiry and it ought to have been started by now but of course it is being delayed until after the referendum.

      • allymax bruce

        John Swinney was in a lose/lose situation; he wasn’t able to rectify the situation until it had all been lost! Scotland’s Finance Secretary did the best he could in a terrible situation; not of SNP’s fault! The trams project was going to fold, with the trams project only 30% complete; what was he supposed to do? In the future, local authorities will be ‘tethered-to-Constitution’ protocols; if this ordinance was in place then, the trams fiasco wouldn’t have happened, and John wouldn’t be getting any stick for trying help Edinburgh in a horrible situation. I love Edinburgh, and see it going from strength to strength now. There’s some really top class Councillors here, and new protocols coming up that will benefit Edinburgh. I’ve seen a few big city’s, but Edinburgh is going to be one of the biggest & most popular around the world. Incidently, I think we have a lot to thank John Swinney for; instead of trying to play the blame-game, when none of the blame was John’s!

        • e2toe4

          No he wasn’t in lose-lose.

          For starters he handed the original cash over with absolutely not a single string attached. The government had no mechanism at all in place to check it was being spent well as the project developed.

          This wasn’t just ‘fresh air’ money it was money from elsewhere in Scotland just handed over and then walked away from.

          It was an unpopular decision and the only comment made at the time by the Finance Minister was that there would not be a penny more—not ‘We’ll also be checking and monitoring how our money is being spent to ensure value.”

          Once the project had disintegrated there were three options presented to the council…one was to stop at the edge of the city centre –this would have been cheaper, AND have the enormous advantage of not creating MORE pollution in the city thanks to the annexation of MAIN roads for the use of the tram.

          But instead Mr Swinney forced the council to incur total borrowing of another £700M to ensure pollution, noise and congestion was increased by taking the traffic of the main routes and stuffing it down domestic household streets.

          He didn’t save the project..the project is dead… the trams will trundle for some years, but the city is facing problems that the administration refuse to admit and prominent amongst the administration at National and City level are the SNP.

          I love Edinburgh but everything about it that is good was created by an enlightened city council a couple of centuries ago.

          Even the present hapless bunch can’t make a complete mess of the good work of the past…thankfully they are so useless they can’t even do that properly–but sunk in a state of denial they are trying their best.

          Have you seen the Caltongate proposal???

          Anyway in the context of this debate I just wanted to point out that John Swinney and the SNP are not some other worldy custodians of virtue beamed from planet perfect……when they finally get dragged into a forensic public inquiry, there are facts that will be examined rigourously

          • allymax bruce

            I can see you have delicate opinions on this matter, so I won’t argue with you; my opinions are broad & look at the big picture. As such, we would be discussing the situation from different perspectives; generally getting nowhere. If I remember correctly, there ‘were’ strings attached; those that the City admin’ had already signed to contract; John could do absolutely nothing about that. The bigger picture is that the Scottisg Gov’ stepped in and saved what was going to be lost at an enormous cost; with nothing at all to show for the money already spent by the City. But now, we have a trams system that is modern and like those of other European cities. Like I say, we’ve got a lot to thank Scotland’s Finance Secretary John Swinney for. When I give my children their pocket money, and they spend it on cheap stuff that breaks easily, then come to me asking for more money to buy the proper stuff that doesn’t break easily, should I give it to them? The analogy works in all relative aspects.

            • e2toe4

              The big picture is what politicians love to look at…. the fact is John Swinney isn’t to blame for the shameful way the project was built on the need to cover up the displacment of pollution from main through routes into domestic streets. (65%..that IS two thirds..originally preidcted to be worse off)

              He IS to blame for handing over £500M with no, nada, non, nein, nyet, zilch oversight..here’s the suitcase..£500M…just take it…… cheerio..give us a ring when the tram’s finished…

              John Swinney didn’t give the kids more money for stuff that doesn’t break easily..he forced the kids to borrow the cash to finish a half-line project by building the very worst final one and a half miles —that cause the most pollution.

              It’s a quadruple whammy of ineptitude that will cause more deaths and chronic childhood respiratory conditions…unless you’re one of the people that seem to inhabit Edinburgh Council’s executive suites, and can believe ‘Pollution is bad’ and ‘WE don’t have to worry about pollution’ at exactly the same time in the same brain cell.

              No worries…. we have a crap fragment of a tram system, that CAUSE MORE pollution from from LESS traffic miles, through more congestion in more domestic streets (not the now Pyongyang style deserted old main roads) and it isn’t even modern anymore.. it’s so late now that more modern systems (no poles blocking the castle views) are being built..AND we have twice as many carriages, twice as many rusting metal poles, wires, rails and everything else all bought at the start so that nobody could ever say stop.

              AND the former £2.5M a year ‘operating contribution’ from the last 1 and a half miles section from Haymarket to York Place plucked from nowhere when it was needed a year or two back to justify building it is now revealed to be a £3.5M to £4M ‘LOSS’ for ever and ever and ever…that to add to the £22MPLUS wonga loan repayment every year from now for the next 30 years..

              I wouldn’t call my views delicate or opinions… the day the tram starts trundling will not be the end of the problems….

  • Kitty MLB

    Although I deplore Burrosso and deplore the EU even more
    the wretched man is just stating a fact.
    As pointed out today already ,The UK is within the EU ( unfortunately) An independent Scotland
    will be breaking away from a EU country ( perhaps she might like independence
    from both- she how she gets on)
    By being part of a EU country, she has all that is needed to join.
    Its just a case of dealing with details and a small independent country needs
    to apply like every other country does.
    Fully aware this is helping Cameron though, not too sure about Burrosso
    and Cameron being in cahoots though.

    • Michael Mckeown

      “By being part of a EU country, she has all that is needed to join.”

      Except a central bank and financial regulator etc…………

      • HookesLaw

        Correct – the numpties as ever live in a world of their own.
        The point is all those countries with seperatist movements will not like to give Scotland a get out of jail free card. Spain for instance plus Belgium and even Italy.
        And whilst some here might view it differently for now – why should the EU give an additional vote to an English speaking country. Who can blame them for thinking that Scotland along with Ireland and the UK would be creating a block vote?

        • Alexsandr

          god you are right about the Belgians. The Waloons and the Flemish hate each other. If any capital investment is made in Flanders, then the same has to be done in the Walloon bit. even if not appropriate.
          at Brussels Midi station the french is above the flemish on the signs. at Nord, the Flemish is on top. at Central, they change em round once per year.
          there is a small german speaking bit too.
          and to go completely off topic,
          and in Belgian french they dont do soixante-dix , quatre-vingts etc but do septante, octante and nonante. same as the swiss but who use huitante for 80

          • Conway

            It isn’t only the Belgians. The French have Breizh (Brittany) to worry about. I don’t know why somebody voted you down – the Belgians do say septante etc and they do have bilingual signs.

            • Makroon

              Nah. The Corsicans might get ideas though.

        • e2toe4

          Good point re the block vote..maybe we could do some temp North, South West, East Midlands, West midlands, Cumbria (home of the brave land of the free) etc separatist stuff then when everyone gets in we could vote to close it down

          • rtj1211

            I think it’s the White Rose county who have the most active bunch of secessionists.

            • e2toe4

              Whatever…we could just get enough areas to indyref..vote out..then when the EU is stuffed with tiny countries all in on the same basis as Scotland will be in according the ‘I thunk it therefore it is’ Salmond rule we can all vote for whatever we want..

              Have to move quickly though as the Germans and French could go down this way…Hesse, Brandenburg, Saxe-Coburg…Saxe AND Coburg… Alsace, savoy, Languedoc, shorterdoc…they’ll need to hold the Council meetings in a decent sized football stadium…..

        • Makroon

          Ha-ha, you make us sound like Scandinavians !
          The independent-minded islanders of north-west Europe don’t do “block votes”.

      • Nicholas chuzzlewit

        And a currency.

        • Michael Mckeown

          And citezens…………….

    • allymax bruce

      May be you’re right, Kitty. Maybe iScotland are waiting until,the current EU member states scrap the horrendous Lisbon Treaty, and wait to see what amazing wonderful Bureaucracy the EU comes up with to replace Lisbon! Like ‘Lisbon’, Barosso is just as much loathed! Westminster really are bringing on a series of dud-subs to scare us; not!

      • Alexsandr

        but the reality is despite the lagalese in treaties is that the commission, and the eu parliament will decide whether scotland is an EU member and thet will be based on what those people would get out of it. If scotland really want to be in the EU (Why???) then they had better start buttering up the other countries and the commission.

      • Kitty MLB

        We know you haggis eating , kilt wearing Celtic warriors are not scared- hardy types who wander the Highlands day and night
        Yet perhaps the real enemy is actually Alex Salmond,
        who is using the anti- English hysteria to his advantage hoping
        it will cloud their judgement.
        Its more about getting away from England then what is best for Scotland- the old grass is greener on the other side saying!

  • Daniel Maris

    As I said on the other thread… this will cause some of you anti-EU pro-unionists a stress headache! :)

    I think again this shows the SNP’s miscalculation. They should never have conceded that they were seeking separation rather than dissolution of the union, just as they should never have joined the fate of an independent Scotland to that of the English pound.

    I said that many months ago and I think events have proved me right in that
    the two grievous blows in the last week have come on currency and post-separation status re the EU (where England Plus will, the SNP have conceded, be the “successor state” and Scotland the supplicant).

    How things will go now remains to be seen, a lot will depend on the alchemy of feeling and interest that take place in the hidden parts of a nation of millions.

  • Fraz Glencross

    Salmond should tell the Scottish people that joining the EU will mean we
    will be compelled to join the euro. He won’t though as he knows it will
    all but guarantee a no vote. He should also explain why its not ok to
    be ” bullied” by Westminster but ok to be bullied by Germany and the EU
    or has he not noticed whats been happening in Greece,Portugal,Spain and
    Ireland?

    • Jambo25

      Actually, quite a lot of us would like to be in the Euro.

      • Conway

        Who is “quite a lot of us”? My French friends would quite happily ditch the euro and go back to the franc!

        • Jambo25

          Then if you can persuade the French electorate feel free to do so.

      • James Strong

        Maybe so.
        But surely the right way forward is to tell the electorate truth in advance of the referendum.
        That is the only way either a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ vote will be valid.

        • Jambo25

          I’m not running the Yes campaign.

    • Steven

      I have a question, and I am probably wrong in my thinking. If Scotland do break away from the UK and NI then we are classed as a new country, is this not the case ith England, Wales and NI? Also if Scotland breaks away we have to reapply to the EU, why then does England, Wales and NI not have to reapply? Surely if a country leaves the union the same policy doesnot apply as to the one that already exists with Scotland as part of the UK?

  • OriginalChris

    Of even greater significance is the fact that Barroso exposes Cameron’s promises on a renegotiation by the UK with regard to the EU as not only virtually impossible, but a sham:
    http://www.ukip.org/newsroom/news/1167-barroso-exposes-cameron-s-renegotiation-pledge-as-sham

    “Barroso …revealed that any significant reform in Europe would require treaty change and must be unanimous. He also stated that the UK government had presented absolutely no plans for renegotiation to the EU and that free movement of people, which allows open door migration between EU member states, is a fundamental principle of the single market and cannot be changed.”

    “It’s clear isn’t it? He says one thing back at home to his cabinet, his backbenchers, his voters and the British people, but is doing quite another thing when he goes over to Brussels. Here is a man who is trying to convince the general public that he can somehow reform the EU and yet the Commission President has said absolutely no proposals have been put forward and any renegotiation of significance would be virtually impossible as it would require all member states agreeing. He also repeated that the free movement of people was not up for grabs. All Cameron is doing is spinning a line back home to try to stay in power.”

    • OriginalChris

      As a postscript to the above, Farage states:
      “What was also startling was Barroso revealing that the EU were waiting to see if Britain’s position will change in the next Government. He clearly thinks Cameron is out the back door along with his sham referendum pledge and sham renegotiation promise after the next general election.” (Links as above).

      • HookesLaw

        No, what he is saying is he hopes is that UKIP will split the right wing vote and let in a europhile Labour Party.
        Farage’s remarks are pathetic even by his standards.

        • asalord

          Leave Nigel alone. He’s doing a great job for the independence movement in Scotland.

          • HookesLaw

            Not just Saint Nigel – just all the tea party far rightwing nutjob loons.. Salmond is desperate to see them shouting their ignorant mouths off. he is desperate to be able to suggest to the Scots that the english do not want them.
            For the record I want the Scots to stay. The Union is good for us all. I want to see sane right wing Scots voting for a same right wing Conservative party.
            But if Scots vote No then good luck to them, we the rest will get along quite capably without them. And the rUK electorate will quite rightly be demanding that they be put first.

            • asalord

              Even if Scotland votes No the “united” kingdom has been terminally damaged by the numerous threats from Osborne and his allies and the ludicrous doom-laden stories printed every day by the press.
              And seven months more!
              Let’s face it,HookesLaw,the union is beyond saving.

              • Michael Mckeown

                A threat is a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done whereas a fact is is something that has really occurred or is actually the case, it is actually the case that the rest of the UK will not be engaging in underwriting the Scottish economy should Scotland decide to leave the UK.

              • HookesLaw

                Lets face it you are whistling in the dark. The Union will come out of the referendum unchanged. Osborne has made no threats that is your invention.
                If threats have been made it is by Salmond who makes endless demands and assumptions of the rest of the UK who are perfectly entitled to decide who if anybody shall share their currency.

                • Makroon

                  These cyber-NATS are going to be even more irate when the other shoe drops – i.e. some offers of enhanced devolution, probably much closer to the referendum.

      • Kitty MLB

        I am somewhat tired of always hearing the words renegotiations,
        there will never be any renegotiations, as Angela Merkel
        said herself, all the countries will want it.
        As far as the next government is concerned, heaven forfend,
        it is Labour, yes the position will change, they have made that clear.

      • Makroon

        Of course, that’s what Barroso & co hope for. On Cameron’s side, he can’t do a thing on formal negotiations without Clegg’s assent, which is ever so slightly unlikely.

    • Michael Mckeown

      Mr Cameron is clear on the issue, if his party win an overall majority in the next election then that will be taken as a mandate to change the EU or leave if change is not forthcoming, as the next election has not happened he has no mandate to begin now, come back in 2015.

    • HookesLaw

      There are going to be treaty changes though, the Euro is going to see to that, and when Cameron made his speech on this subject a while back this was the point he made and said thet the UK would need to renegotiate its position.
      Closer integration of the Euro nations within the EU will create a different position for the UK and require some sort of revisions.
      But if we negotiate and if the EU says NO then we will still have our referendum and people can vote on what is the outcome.
      The point we need to bear in mind is that if we then leave and join the EEA and have some associate status with the EU like Norway then whilst that will be different and may protect and retain the independdence of our financial sector – it will not make that much material difference to anything else. Indeed it had better not otherwise all our car industry will be relocating to Bulgaria.

      • Alexsandr

        Oh change the record hooky. There is nothing anywhere that says we have to be in the single market, EFTA or anything. If we leave the eu our rlationship with it can be written on a clean sheet.

        • HookesLaw

          Why don’t you and the other nutjobs change your record?
          Do you really think that we can stay out of the single market? All of a sudden you do not want to be in the EU or in the EEA or in anything.
          Do you really think we can continue to get all our inward investment if we are out of the EU and single market? Do you think we can keep what we have? You are no better than Salmond in offering a pig in a poke.
          A clean sheet? Suppose the EU do not want to write anything on it?
          You are an absolute fool. And an even bigger one if you thing all the British whose jobs are dependent on EU based investment will vote to come out. All you will create is division.

          • fubarroso

            Why do suppose the EU would not want to write on a clean sheet? Do you think they will no longer want to trade with their largest market? No longer want to sell us all that plonk, all those Mercs and Beamers?

            • HookesLaw

              Under what terms? Why should they offer any terms different to Norway? They can export their beemers somewhere else and build their cars somewhere else as well.
              Your professed certainties are paper thin.
              Who would have the stronger hand – a country of 60 million or a group of 400 million with some of them more than happy to take our inward investment and take our existing factories away from us.
              You are plain stupid. You may not like me calling you that but to base your entire predictions of the economic health of our country on a paper thin fantasy prompts me to say it. And of course this is exactly what Salmond is doing with Scotland.

              Let me repeat we may somehow leave and still be in the single market and/or have some associate status but it would be virtually indistinguishable from what we have now (except no vote on EU decisions of course).

              • Alexsandr

                tell that to BMW. I expect you will get very short shrift.

                and bosch, siemens, danfoss, french/italian/spanish wine industry, interbrew, aldi, etal.

                • HookesLaw

                  You live in hope. Your pretence is that the reverse is not true. You seem to thionk we can do something else but that BMW (on the margin of what they would not sell to us) could not.
                  You offer nothing but a pig in a poke. Great uncertainty.

                  I repeat leaving the EU but joining the EEA and staying in the single market might be viable but effectively little different from now. But leaving the single market would be absurd and dangerous. I am dealing in reality not your fantasy. Thank you and good night.

                • Les

                  For the last time, you can’t join the EEA! Membership is confined to EU and EFTA member states.

              • fubarroso

                Our exact exit terms would be negotiated during the ~2 years+ specified in Article 50 of the TEU (ex. Lisbon Treaty).
                It maybe that we end up as members of EFTA/EEA for an interim period until we find alternative markets. The idea that the EU member states would immediately refuse to trade with us (“sell their Beamers elsewhere”) is ridiculous.

                Your analogy with Scotland is farcical. Scotland currently benefits from being part of a transfer union under which the rUK subsidises their free prescriptions, free university places etc. The EU does not subsidise us, quite the reverse. We are a net contributor and the paltry amount they deign to feed back to us has to be spent as the EU dictates rather than on sensible things like flood defences.

                As for not having a vote on EU decisions I suggest you take time out to read this:

                http://www.brugesgroup.com/TheNorwayOption.pdf

                • HookesLaw

                  It is not farcical. leaving the EU for …. what? is as much a pig in a poke as Scotland voting to leave the UK in 7 months.

                  ‘…it maybe that we end up in EEA/EFTA for an interim period until we find new markets…’ just about sums up how farcical your notions are.

                  ‘maybe’ ‘interim’ ‘new markets’ (like everybody else is not after them) – what a load of old guff.

                  Oh and…
                  ‘This week saw the opening of the Tywyn Coastal Defence Scheme, a £7.6M flood defence project that will protect 78 properties in the North Wales town (see £7.6M coastal defence scheme opened at Tywyn).
                  Forty-six per cent of the funding for this project was provided by the European Union’s (EU’s) Regional Development Fund (ERDF).’
                  http://www.nce.co.uk/opinion/jo-stimpson/uk-flood-schemes-may-benefit-from-european-funding/8613240.blog

                  If we end up like Norway (maybe no bad thing) we would still have to pay into the ERDF as part of the single market.
                  I repeat – only a fool would walk away from the single market. I suggest the only way we would end up like Norway is if the Eurozone EU rules presented a danger to our financial sector.

                • Conway

                  I thought you’d said goodnight!

                • fubarroso

                  “I suggest the only way we would end up like Norway is if the Eurozone EU rules presented a danger to our financial sector.”

                  ..which they quite obviously do. Of equal, if not more import, is that the EU poses an immediate and lethal danger to our national sovereignty.

                • Les

                  You can trade but not free trade. You would have to negotiate the terms of trade, like EFTA and the EU (the EEA) has negotiated individually with countries like Morocco and Israel.

                • fubarroso

                  I am aware of that, which is why Richard North proposes joining EFTA/EEA as an interim solution. Unlike the EU, EFTA/EEA membership does not preclude signing free-trade agreements with countries outside the association. An exit via Article 50 allows adequate time for an agreement acceptable to both to be reached, which will probably mean our applying to EFTA. If you watch Dr North’s interviews with Norwegian and Icelandic politicians on YouTube, with the exception of those angling for EU membership, which their people soundly reject, they do not seem averse to our becoming members.

                • Jambo25

                  Oh Christ, here we go again. Scotland almost certainly pays more into the UK pot than it takes out. There is a point that since all of the UK is in budget deficit that means that Scotland’s deficit is probably just smaller than rUK’s. However, no matter how you cut it, Scotland is not being subsidised by the noble English taxpayer.

                • Jambo25

                  Do some checking. All of the UK is in deficit. That’s what Gideon’s being doing his pieces over for the past few years. Scotland actually has a lower deficit than the rest of the UK. rUK is subsidising no one.

              • fubarroso

                the fact that you keep on repeating the “3 million jobs would go” and “no vote on EU decisions” mantras, despite both of your arguments having been dissed on here several times, identifies you as a Tory/LibDem shill. I suggest you take some time out to read Dr Richard North’s treatise on the subject. He has far more knowledge of the workings of the EU/EFTA/EEA than you will ever have:

                http://www.brugesgroup.com/TheNorwayOption.pdf

            • Michael Mckeown

              Scotland is the EU’s largest market?

              • fubarroso

                Does my moniker seem Scottish to you then? I’m talking about the rUK if Scotland decides to Scotexit UK.

          • fubarroso

            Membership of EEA/EFTA will no doubt be necessary for an interim period to have uninterrupted access to the single (shrinking) market; perhaps as long as a decade or so, during which this country will be able to find alternate (growing) markets and resume its traditional role as a global trading nation. Finding an alternative to what amount to only 8% of our export market should not prove too difficult.

            • Michael Mckeown

              You cant join the EFTA without the express permission of all EU states.

              • fubarroso

                Rubbish. Joining EFTA requires the agreement of its member states. Iceland, Norway, Liechtenstein and Switzerland. None of which are members of the EU. If you meant the EEA then yes, it would require agreement of the EU member states (excluding Croatia) plus Switzerland. However I doubt they would refuse at is would be rather like cutting off their nose to spite their face.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  It requires approval of the EU as it allows EU free trade, it would be odd for EFTA to unilaterally dish out EU free trade agreements!

                • fubarroso

                  EFTA provides for access to the EU single market only though EEA. It is possible to be a member of EFTA without being a member of the EEA. Switzerland is not a member of the EEA having preferred to negotiate bilateral agreements with the EU.

                • HookesLaw

                  And might membership also require joining Schengen? Have you thought of that or is that just one more likely EU demand that you can airily ignore as the might EU cowers at our feet willingly subservient.

                • Conway

                  The we’d have to be more like Switzerland, which isn’t in the EEA but has bilateral agreements (and has just voted to limit immigration because they are not in the EU, although they are part of Schengen).

                • Les

                  All EFTA members are in Schengen.

            • Les

              You can’t join the EEA. You have to be a member of EFTA or the EU. Getting into EFTA may be just as hard to get into as the EU because they don’t take anybody. The sole existing members have been members since the 1960s or 70s (the UK was one of the founding members).
              And you can’t apply to EFTA as a stepping stone to the EU, either – you have to adhere to its principles.
              I sincerely hope EFTA member states are reading posts like this so somebody can officially set you straight.

            • Makroon

              There you go again – making up silly fantasies on the hoof.
              Is that in the next UKIP manifesto too ?

          • Alexsandr

            if you spoke to me like that in person i would break your jaw you arrogant biggot.
            Cleggs 3m jobs at risk from leaving the EU has been shown to be complete rubbish. We can trade OK with the Eu wothout being in their clubs. because we are net importers from the EU. and most of our economy is domestic or trade from outside the EU. Without the payments to the eu and the myriad of regulations it imposes, we will be a more productive economy.

            • HookesLaw

              Typically you do not like the truth. Sorry you are so weasely upset.
              You come on here and spout utter rubbish and along with all the other hysteric nutjobs hope to work yourselves up into a nice agreeable freinzy of xenophobia and expect me nor others say nothing?
              Then when you don’t like being contradicted you descend into threats.
              You are the ‘biggot’ who refuses to even consider the clear downside to your arguments.

              I am sure the Spectator out of its own prejudiced opinions would like this place to remain a hotbed of frothing nutjobbery – they must pardon me for intervening.

              Your notions about a more productive economy are marginal (in case you haven’t noticed I am being polite there). Is Germany not a productive economy? Is Norway in the EU. Does Norway obey EU regulations? Is Norway in Schengen? Does Norway pay into EU regional funds?

              You live in a fantasy world and you need to wake up.

              • Alexsandr

                I think if you look through all my posts I do not have to resort to insults to make my points. Calling people nutjobs, and saying their opinions are utter rubbish, which you have habitually done just undermines your argument and makes you just look barking.

                • HookesLaw

                  Looking through your posts you repeat rubbish – rubbish like it will be OK to walk out of the EU and it not affect the economy.

                  Fundamentally the EU out rightwing loony nutjobs who regularly howl at the moon and prop up each others prejudices on here refuse to admit that if we were to leave the EU the most obvious likely scenario – membership of the EEA will be very little different from now. Indeed it might make us vulnerable to joining Schengen – a ‘bad thing’ in my opinion.

                  This is the great deceit of Farage and his camp followers.

                • Alexsandr

                  i rest my case milud:-

                  you repeat rubbish
                  rightwing loony nutjobs
                  howl at the moon
                  prop up each others prejudices

                • HookesLaw

                  You cannot answer the facts you are faced with. New entrants to the

                • Les

                  You cannot be in the EEA without being either a member state of the EU or EFTA. And you have to apply for membership with EFTA, have your application ratified unanimously by existing members.

                • fubarroso

                  Camp followers? Oooh ducky!!

                • Wessex Man

                  It’s only because he’s losing the argument and his wits, make allowances for his b*******!

                • Alexsandr

                  cant be bothered. losing my will to live :(

              • Les

                Norway is in Schengen. Norway does pay into EU regional funds through the Financial Instrument, and pays on top through a separate bilateral agreement with the EU. Norway does obey European regulations due to the framework agreement whereby EFTA members adopt EU policy (human rights, environment, working hours directive, etc). Next question?

      • Conway

        Some of our car industry (Ford from Eastleigh) has already relocated to Turkey (with the aid of an EU grant). All we need from the EU is a trade agreement. We do not need it to produce an inch thick volume of regulations relating to cabbages. Should that be required, I’m sure we’re capable of doing it ourselves.

  • asalord

    Perhaps the most important thing about Osborne’s intervention was the eager support it got from Ed Balls and the Labour party.
    Many traditional Labour voters in Scotland will have looked on in disgust at this sickening alliance. The labour party in Scotland are in a mess.
    More votes for the Yes campaign.

    • HookesLaw

      If Labour voters in Scotland had wanted independence they wouild have voted SNP. Because they are by definition Labour voters they did not. Indeed whilst we cannot prove it I think we can be pretty sure that many SNP voters do not want independence but simply want to register a protest.
      As it stands given the vast uncertainties about just about everything (plus the only marginal upside at best) – only a raving idiot would vote Yes.

      • asalord

        Your last few words proves once again how political discourse in England is so out of kilter with politics in Scotland.

      • Alexsandr

        just because people habitually vote for a party doesnt mean they wholeheartedly support every policy of that party. Unless they are a troll. But you know all about trolls dont you?

        • HookesLaw

          You do.
          I suspect most people are fairly ambivalent voters. People will vote against what they fear most.

          And very few people can agree with every single policy of a great political party because they are themselves coalitions. I disagree with many conservative backbenchers, believing them to be thick. Only kippers believe everything they are told by Saint Nigel and his amazing sunlit backside.
          One other thing I believe is that you are nothing like as clever as you think you are.

      • mahatmacoatmabag

        only raving idiots voted Blair & Labour into power 3 times in a row & without Blair’s connivance their would be no Scottish Assembly to divide & weaken the UK into provinces more easy to control by Brussels

        • HookesLaw

          As Tories said at the time devolution was a pandoras box.
          There are idiots around that is true. Otherwise no one would vote for Europhile labour. The Scottish assembly does not weaken the UK. Its essentially just a giant and thus wasteful local govt. An independent Scotland will not materially weaken the UK. We can get by, but we are better off together.

          • mahatmacoatmabag

            we will do much better when we leave the EUSSR

            • HookesLaw

              How? And if we stay in the single market we will not be much different. It may be quite a good idea (or may be not) to simply be in the EEA – it might be necessary to protect our finance sector – but it will make little difference.
              Only a fool would suggest we leave the single market.

          • Conway

            I have to admire your chutzpah! “europhile Labour”? Yes, Gordon Brown sneaked off and signed the Lisbon Treaty in a back room, but who was responsible for taking us in (Heath), signing the Single European Act (Thatcher) and Maastricht (Major)? What did these three PMs have in common? They certainly were europhile (until Maggie woke up) but they weren’t Labour.

  • FF42

    The end result in the case of a yes vote is not in dispute: an independent Scotland in the EU. The negotiations with RUK will wrapped up reasonably quickly because both parties want to get them over with. The negotiations over the EU could drag on for years. For comparison, those with Croatia took ten years. It could take as long for Scotland to get the European council the European parliament as well as 28 governments to not only agree the accession terms but individually enact the treaty changes that allow the accession. That would be ten years of uncertainty and chaos

    • Wessex Man

      true but it would be all Scotland’s uncertainty and chaos, though no doubt President Salmond will blame it all on those wicked English!

      • CraigStrachan

        President Salmond, you say? I think he sees himself more as Alexander IV, King of Scots.

        • Kitty MLB

          The rather rotund Salmond is sitting somewhere now
          saying ‘ I go and it is done, the bell invites me’
          I just hope he does not start wandering around with
          scull, has anyone seen the fragrant Nicola recently?

          • kris mcfadyen

            Not sure if any of you actually live in Scotland. If any of you do so, you are obviously detached from reality because most Scottish people see our FM as being a highly skilled extremely intelligent politician. There is no UK political leader capable of getting the better of him in a debate about Scottish Independence.
            If any of you had the slightest modicum of intellectual ability you will recognise that the biggest threat to Scotland’s EU membership is the IN/OUT referendum being promised by the Tories and shortly by Labour too.

        • Nicholas chuzzlewit

          More like Bonny Prince Bull***t.

          • HookesLaw

            First Comrade Salmond is doing nicely on the protest vote gravy train.

      • Michael Rossi

        I’m sure you’re very wicked :)

  • asalord

    First we had threats from Osborne now we have threats from Jose Manuel “I’m scared of Catalonia going independent” Barrosso.
    It’s too good to be true. keep ordering Scots to vote No and they will definitely vote Yes.

    • Michael Mckeown

      Everything that contradicts Salmond is ‘scaremongering’ to you but for something to be ‘scaremongering’ you need to prove it to be false so do tell everyone why the president of the European Commission is lying.

      • asalord

        More please,Michael. Every little helps.

        • Michael Mckeown

          So why is the president of the European Commission lying?

          • asalord

            “…so do tell everyone why the president of the European Commission is lying.”

            So do tell everyone where I used the word “lying”

            • Michael Mckeown

              You used ‘scaremongering’ and in order to scaremonger he must be saying falsehoods ie; lying.

              • asalord

                so do tell everyone where I used the word “scaremongering”

                • Michael Mckeown

                  In your first post that you edited a second ago, troll.

                • asalord

                  Oh dear oh dear. Now who’s lying.

                  British nationalism at its finest.
                  Keep going though,Michael. As I said,every little helps.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  You are most likely because you failed to grasp the concept of scaremongering despite it being your favorite word.

          • Alexsandr

            cos his friends in spain dont want catalonia separating from spain.

    • mahatmacoatmabag

      Barrosso is from Portugal, was their PM, Catalonia is a Spanish province

      Will there be a Postal Vote in the Scottish independence referendum?

      If so there is a real possibility of Labour & the TUC organizing a large No vote

      the Wythenshawe and Sale East by-election proved their considerable skills in organizing victory using the Postal Vote given a staggering 42.2 per cent chose to vote by post & determined the outcome for their party

      • HookesLaw

        The by election had a very short timescale. Postal votes changed nothing.

        • mahatmacoatmabag

          the suspicion is it did & either way they honed their skills in organizing & carrying out fraud on a mass scale

          • HookesLaw

            I suggest you put your proof to the Electoral Commission. Or shut up.
            For what it is worth I do not believe in postal voting and think it should be restricted to the disabled or extreme elderly and infirm.

            • Wessex Man

              Listen gobb zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

        • Alexsandr

          the short timescale meant parties didnt have enough time to put their message across before the postal votes were returned. postal voting is an invitation to fraud and should be restricted to the infirm and those with a genuine documented need to be away on polling day.

          • mahatmacoatmabag

            Have you noticed that there is never a Postal Strike or Go Slow when Labour needs to win a by-election or a big block of crucial inner city constituencies during a G.E. ?

  • MichtyMe

    There would of course have to be a unanimous decision to remove Scotland from the territory of the EU before it could apply for readmission, how is that going to happen?

    • Michael Mckeown

      The residents of Scotland vote to remove themselves from the UK later this year.

      • MichtyMe

        The referendum vote is just a big opinion poll, it is the legislature of the UK that votes to create the two sovereign states in place of the one. An act of the UK cannot affect the territorial integrity of the EU.

        • Michael Mckeown

          Of course it can, if Westminster legislate that London is no longer in the UK then London is no longer in the EU.

          • MichtyMe

            There is a procedure in EU law that permits a member state to leave, there is no process for a territory to cease to be part of the EU.

            • Michael Mckeown

              Yes there is, a member state simply gives notice to quit and if negotiations have not happened within 24 months then the member state is no longer a member.

              • MichtyMe

                You have misread me, yes there is a process for a member state but there is no procedure for Scotland, a territory.

  • Whyshouldihavetoregister

    “Barroso thinks that distinction is significant, but the EU doesn’t.” Shurely “the SHNP doeshn’t”? – Ed.

  • Rocksy

    If we can have a cast iron guarantee that an independent Scotland would not be accepted into the EUSSR, I wouldn’t feel as concerned if there is a Yes win.

  • Ricky Strong

    You have to admire his courage in using the term ‘democratic’. Must have taken a lot of coaching to not vomit after saying it.

    • Michael Mckeown

      The only democracy regarding joining the EU is that all existing members must unanimously agree.

      It is not the case, nor has it ever been, that the applicant country unilaterally decides that it is a member as that would be undemocratic.

      • rtj1211

        Perhaps it is time to say that ‘no country can unreasonably withhold membership from any nation which satisfies the conditions for being a member’?

        that means that if Scotland’s economy is up to scratch and they agree to be bound by the rules, then pathetic little despots afraid of secessionists in their own nations can’t veto.

        • Nicholas chuzzlewit

          Well good luck with that one.

  • CraigStrachan

    Might be time for Alex Salmond to take some legal advice on the EU membership question. And publish it.

    • saffrin

      It might be time for Alex Salmond to tell the truth for once.

      • CraigStrachan

        I doubt he could tell the truth if it fell out of a clear blue sky into his lap and gave him a lapdance.

    • e2toe4

      Quite.

      • MichtyMe

        The European and External Affairs committee of Parliament has been taking evidence on this in recent weeks, with a lot of advice from european legal experts and much of that would suggest that Barroso’s opinion is mince. It is all available on the Parliament website in the committee archive.

        • e2toe4

          All that is happening is that the various assertions stated as inevitable outcomes, are being exposed as not being inevitable outcomes–they are debatable, at best.

          Barroso’s opinion isn’t as weighty in the context as the Whitehall advice on currency union, but both interventions show the issues are not the clear cut ‘done deal-no possible alternatives’ as presented by AS,NS and JS.

          The decision isn’t going to turn on any single issue, and any single person’s opinion—not even Alex Salmond’s.

          But in respect of the idea put forward by Nicola Sturgeon that ‘they wouldn’a dare’ in respect of currency union because of transactional costs involved–that is just pitiful in the light of the advice published which considered the currency costs issue when arriving at a view that specifically balanced this issue and it’s disadvantages against the advantages.

          As you indicate by the ‘suggest’ and the ‘much’ the matter is debatable… not as certain as has been asserted unilaterally by the SNP

    • Makroon

      Of course, the EU would find some way to accommodate an independent Scotland in the EU, whatever Barroso says before the referendum.
      The point is, the EU would hold every single card in the negotiation – on the Euro, on “membership fees”, on “economic oversight”, on Schengen, maybe even another cheeky bid to have “Scotland’s oil and fishing rights” declared an EU resource.

      • rtj1211

        I guess it depends on whether there is a court in Euroland that can hold the European Executive to account if they treat Scotland in a discriminatory way as compared to Greece, Romania, Bulgaria the Baltic nations etc etc.

        If there isn’t, then do you really want to join an anti-democratic club of apparatchiks anyway??

  • anyfool

    The speaking clock has more say than Barroso, he was spouting a line that throws up more questions than answers, how exactly would they eject Scotland, they have not even got a consistent line on it.
    He also said that Cameron has room for manouvere on repatriation of powers by indicating talks on treaties are possible.
    In both cases he said the diametrically opposite position in the same interview.

    • Michael Mckeown

      Its really simple, Scotland votes to leave the UK then because Scotland is not a member state it is therefore not in the EU.

      A list of member states to assist you:

      http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/index_en.htm

      • MichtyMe

        That is as absurd as saying that the Scottish Parliament could unilaterally remove Dumfries and Galloway from the UK.

        • Michael Mckeown

          Facts are Scotland is not nor has ever been an EU member state as has been proven by the link above.

          Should Scotland leave the UK then it is no longer part of the UK’s EU membership, its not rocket science.

          • MichtyMe

            That Scotland is not a member state is irrelevant. For Scotland to be outwith the jurisdiction of the EU and its residents to lose their EU citizenship would require EU decisions.

            • Michael Mckeown

              You are having a laugh here, the fact Scotland is not a member state is the point of Scotland being outside the EU should it leave the UK.

              EU jurisdiction applies to member states only.

              • MichtyMe

                “leave the UK” this is political babble, the parliament of the UK is to legislate to create two sovereign states of equal status, the member state has partitioned itself.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Partitioning is a good analogy and partitioning is to split territory so as we know “If a territory of a member state ceases to be part of that member state because it has become an independent state then the treaties would cease to apply to that territory.” [European Commission response to an independent Scotland]

                • MichtyMe

                  Perhaps you should have watched th evidence to Parliaments European and External affairs committee in recent weeks. Graham Avery, European Commission, Hon Director General, involved in the UK’s and numerous other membership entries say that position was “perplexing and absurd” Professsor David Edwards, former judge of the European Court of Justice also stated his oponion that Scotland would not required to leave the EU.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Its not about the rent a profs its about simple facts and the facts are Scotland is not a member so to become one it simply has to join as joining is the only way to become a member.

                • MichtyMe

                  I am a EU citizen, I have a passport with European Union on the front, will you explain to me the legal process that will remove this.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Sure, The Treaty Of The Functioning Of The European Union States “Citizenship of the Union is hereby established. Every person holding the nationality of a Member State shall be a citizen of the Union. Citizenship of the Union shall be additional to and not replace national citizenship.” in other words you are an EU citizen so long as your country is a member.

                • MichtyMe

                  So not happy with “rent a profs” perhaps Viviane Reding, European Commission “there is no law that says that a territory should leave the EU if it becomes independent”

                • Michael Mckeown

                  You’re nuts, the EU is based on treaty’s that apply to the signatories, Scotland is not one of them!

                • e2toe4

                  Give yourself a medal for trying anyway … and welcome to the world of the cybernats. incredibly committed to a world view untrammeled by logic, unaffected by common sense.

                  ‘There’s no law saying….’ is a favourite. “We have legal advice…” used to be another… but they don’t use that so much since the last time they stood upon an assertion of having legal advice it turned out to be from ‘Makey, Uppey and Fib’

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  Scotland departing from the UK which is the member state.

                • Les

                  Yes, you will have Scottish citizenship. On the day that Kenya became independent, all people born in Kenya or qualifying residents who chose to become citizens became citizens of Kenya. You may have to wait for your new passport to be issued, but you will NOT be stateless. Which is the only requirement of the ECJ, that you are not made stateless.

                • Les

                  Graham Avery used to work for the EU, and David Edwards used to be a judge. Both were expressing opinions without any authority. The SNP read their opinions online and used those to frame their arguments without ever having consulted either one. Then, caught with their pants down in 2012 when a Scottish MEP challenged them to present the legal opinions they claimed to have gotten, they admitted they had not sought legal advice.

                • HookesLaw

                  No it is not. It is voting to let Scotland leave. How can the UK parliament set up another country?

            • HookesLaw

              You sound like the black knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail – shouting defiance as his limbs are being cut off.

              Pretence is no defence against reality.

          • Kitty MLB

            Indeed, The United Kingdom is a EU state,
            an independent Scotland will be a new small country.
            Clearly Wee Eck, needs a rocket somewhere.

            • HookesLaw

              A rocket up the same place that the sun shines from out of Farage.

              • Kitty MLB

                Perhaps you small boys should stop playing with rockets,
                they are dangerous.

                • HookesLaw

                  If rockets are dangerous then I suggest you stop introducing them into the conversation.

        • e2toe4

          I know this is pointless….. but the analogy is Dumfries and Galloway voting to leave Scotland and then saying they will remain as a country in the EU along with Scotland…and if that causes confusion then that’s okay because it means Dumfries and Galloway AND Scotland are both equal—- EITHER both ‘in’ or BOTH ‘out’–

    • Holly

      They are not as bothered about Scotland remaining as a member, because the money comes from Westminster.
      Will we have to ‘contribute’ the same amount if Scotland votes ‘YES’?
      IF so WHY?

  • Michael Mckeown

    John Swinney the swindler said ‘President Barroso’s remarks are pretty preposterous this morning. He’s set out his position linking and comparing Scotland to the situation in Kosovo. Scotland’s been a member of the EU for 40 years, we’re already part of the European Union.’ and obviously there is a big mistake over at the EU as they forgot to add Scotland to the list of members for 40 years:

    http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/index_en.htm

    • Jambo25

      Read John Palmer’s piece in the Guardian before writing anything else.

  • telemachus associates

    Tub of lard knows well that Spain will threaten the veto to keep the Catalans in line.
    He is on a hiding to nothing.

    • e2toe4

      Belgium, French and Spain with Basques…. as well. In the last couple of days somebody has pushed the mirror over and it’s smahed the smoke machine..

  • Michael Mckeown

    Well what can be said? He is obviously completely wrong and knows nothing at all as obviously unlike the SNP he wont have talked to the EU member states concerned……….. meanwhile the SNP meltdown continues.

    • kris mcfadyen

      Keep up the same old nonsensical mantra Michael. Cameron and Miliband will have the UK out of the EU Tout Suite following the 2017 General Election.

  • Tom Tom

    He may just have fired the starting pistol for Catalonia to declare Independence. This man is an imbecile and Portuguese, you might think he would consider the effects on Spain of such stupid comments. If an Independent Scotland has to apply to join the EU then so must England because The United Kingdom will no longer be the legal entity that voted in the 1975 Referendum

    • anyfool

      The UK, Germany and France will decide on what happens in the EU, Spain and the rest will beat around the edges, but that about the limit of their powers. money always talks, democracy and the EU are polar opposites.

      • HookesLaw

        You are aptly named.

        • anyfool

          The staggering wit that you can sometimes conjure up is wonderful to behold, its a pity it is not matched by your powers of reasoning, please tell me any actions by the EU that are anywhere resembling democracy.
          If every MEP in the election coming up were anti EU and voted to wind up this cancerous entity, they would not have the power to make it happen.
          The blindingly obvious evades those who choose not to see.

          • Kitty MLB

            Indeed, that staggering wit of his.
            You could both have a battle of wits, but as you can see
            he is unarmed.

            • Andy

              I wouldn’t go quite that far myself.

              • Wessex Man

                I would!

          • HookesLaw

            My staggering wit – which I readily acknowledge – is not as great as your monumental stupidity. Please do not take this out on me – someone has to tell you.
            Strangely you and others want us to leave the EU but by your own admission we are one of the big three who make things work and tell the others what to do. This seems a good deal.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …yes, you socialists do relish telling others what to do.

            • Lady Magdalene

              There is precious little evidence, when it comes to the running of the EU, that we have any influence at all.
              Unless of course, our EUphile stooges in Whitehall and Westminster think that “influence” means doing whatever France and Germany cook up between them.

    • CraigStrachan

      It’s pretty clear that rUK would be the successor state. But even if you’re right, and both parts of a broken UK would have to re-apply, you nicely highlight how much uncertainty and disruption would follow a Yes vote.

      • Wessex Man

        We can only hope! The Scottish Nation severing all ties to the UK and the UK being free from the EU all in one day! Halleliujah!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        • HookesLaw

          And a total disaster for our economies. What a dope you are.

          • Alexsandr

            Really? how?

            • HookesLaw

              As I have outlined before at length.

              • Wessex Man

                Ok dopey, let’s keep it simple so you can keep up. Your mob and the Lib/Dums keep quoting the three million jobs lost if we leave the EU- which is a lie according to the man who first said that- three million jobs in the UK depend on trade WITH EUROPE NOT JUST THE EU- his name is Martin Weale and he is a direactor of the National Institute of Econmic ans Social Research.

                What you and your cronies don’t say not ever is that six and a half million EU jobs depend on average yearly exports of twenty eight and a half billion more euros than UK exports to them.

                Now I know you are as thick as two short planks but I don’t think the EU would chance adding six and a half million more workless to their already massive numbers just to prove you and yours right!

          • Holly

            I am sure we would get over it.

            I am quite looking forward to it, and hope with all my being that the lazy, trouble-causing MSM push this for all it’s worth.

            We would save a fortune, get rid of UKIP, the EU, Scotland, all their mediocre Scottish MP’S, and would never have to hear Bozo in our Parliament ever again.

            • HookesLaw

              If Nissan closed the Sunderland plant? ‘Oh of course they wouldn’t’ How do you know? And what about all the extra investment our now successful car industry might expect? And other inward investment? Are you a mind reader – just how do you think say potential Chinese investors would react to us cutting ourselves adrift from the EU? The EU is going to lie down and let us take all their inward investment are they?

              You and others offer nothing more than a pig in a poke and as I repeat but clearly people are too bigoted to take in – IF we leave the mainstream but stay in the single market (EEA) to protect our finance industry (and this may indeed happen and be necessary according to how the Eurozone integrates) then there will be effectively little difference from now.
              Again I repeat –
              This is the big lie from Farage and his sycophants (he does not have followers) – and UKIP are increasingly interested in Intolerance not ‘Independence’.

              And febrile frothing over this merely splits the right wing vote and lets in europhile labour. And for effectively nothing.

              • Wessex Man

                This would be the same Chief Executive that said if we didn’t join the Euro he would close the Sunderland Factory.

                This would be the Chinese who said when the EU attempted to impose trade barriers on them they would shut their markets to Europe and the EU caved in overnight would it?

                If you and your sycophantic mates who worship at the foot of Call me Dave hadn’t split our vote Thursday we would have had our first Westminster MP.

                The big from the Tories is that under them there will be a referendum in 2017!

                • Alexsandr

                  ‘hadn’t split our vote Thursday’

                  so 10,000 postal votes had nothing to do with it then?

                • Wessex Man

                  Yes those as well, when you think about it we could have had a blinder!

              • Conway

                Since Ford upped sticks from Eastleigh (in the EU) to Turkey (not yet in the EU) with the aid of an EU grant, I hardly think we need to worry about threats from big business. If it suits them they’ll leave anyway, whether we are in the EU or not.

              • Les

                Sigh…the UK and/or Scotland can’t stay in the EEA if (they) leave the EU. The UK cannot rejoin EFTA having left the organization in 1972.

    • Andy

      Not so. Your view is incorrect in Law.

      • allymax bruce

        No, you’re incorrect! Tom Tom is correct; the UK is a United Kingdom, being Dissolved, and, not by secession! That’s the crucial part; seceeding states are ‘seen’ as the ‘leaving state’, and thus would need to ‘re-apply’. iScotland is not seceeding, but Dissolving the 1707 contract, thus, are absolutely not subject to current EU ‘direction’ as the slimey Barosso alluded to. As well as a sleekit slug, Barosso is a cretin!

        • HookesLaw

          No you ae wrong.

          • allymax bruce

            That’s quite a strong argument you’ve got there Hooky!

            • Damon

              Allymax, honestly. Do you really think EU states give a tinker’s —- about Acts of Union in 1707? You will be seen as a secessionist state, and that’s all that matters. Spain will block, or at least delay, your EU accession with all the force at its disposal, as will any EU state with a “regionalist” problem. It’s not a question of what’s fair; it’s a question of what will happen.

              Be all means vote Yes if you wish. No-one disputes your prerogative to do so. But do please be honest with yourselves about the consequences. Telling fibs to others is scarcely admirable. Telling increasingly desperate fibs to yourselves is a sure recipe for tears.

              • HookesLaw

                Allymax represents a regrettably strong trend in wishful thinking that we find around here.

              • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                You can lead a horse to water etc etc

              • allymax bruce

                “Allymax, honestly. Do you really think EU states give a tinker’s —-
                about Acts of Union in 1707?”
                Maybe, the EU doesn’t give a tinker’s, but that doesn’t invalidate my comment. The EU, will have to deal with the surety of the situation, not what it wants to think or do. The fact is, Scotland will vote Yes in 6 months, and, according to the Treaty of Union 1707, then both iScotland, and rUK will either be IN, or OUT of the EU.
                Besides, it’s not only iScotland Barosso needs to apologise to, there’s many many EU member states already very very unhappy with Barosso, the Lisbon Treaty, and the set-up of the unaccountable European Commission. Change IS coming; and that suits both iScotland, and David Cameron’s rUK; mark my words!

            • Andy

              Northern Ireland is also a Kingdom. And Scotland does not ‘Dissolve the 1707 contract’. The Union of Parliaments was created by an Act of Parliament, so only Parliament may dissolve it – and Parliament is ‘Be it enacted, by the Queen’s Most Excellent Majesty, with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons in Parliament assembled . . . . ‘

            • HookesLaw

              Its the best there is.

            • P_S_W

              You honestly think most of us actually care if we’re forced out of the EU? I think an awful lot of people will be asking you to vote Yes if that really was the case.

              • Kitty MLB

                Indeed so P-S-W.

            • Nicholas chuzzlewit

              It does have the virtue of being correct.

            • monty61

              LOL. (in a good way).

        • Holly

          So you reckon that the EU will give up our financial contribution to the EU, until both bits of the UK re-apply?
          Can’t wait to see that.

          IF that is the case, surely England must have a vote in any ‘breakaway’ referendum as well.
          Can’t wait to see that either.

          See how daft it is becoming.

          • Nicholas chuzzlewit

            Sadly Holz I don’t think he will.

          • allymax bruce

            Your 1st para’; It is what it is, Holly, and nothing will change it.
            Your 2nd para’; that’s not a ‘surety’, (like the Dissolution protocols in para1 is a surety), that’s an assumption your making based on sentimentality.
            Well, Cameron wants a new EU Treaty; maybe he’s all for Scotland, and rUK being OUT of the EU; even if by ‘default’!

        • Alexsandr

          so 10m sweaties decide whether the other 50m in the UK stay in the EU. This democracy lark is good isnt it?

          • Nicholas chuzzlewit

            Scotland has a population of 5.3 million the Rest of the UK is around 55million. Your point remains apposite.

            • Alexsandr

              thanks for correction.

              • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                Sorry if it seemed pedantic but the arrogance of these people assuming that they can dictate to 91% of the UK population is staggering.

                • Les

                  They seem to think they can dictate to the entire European Union!!

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  I don’t think anybody wishes to “dictate to the whole EU” but may wish to renegotiate certain terms of membership. The strength of thar negotiating position is very debatable save for the ‘nuclear option’ of giving the UK what it wants or we will pull out. Scotland’s negotiating position would be even weaker having no effective ‘nuclear option’ to pull out. Indeed, Scotland would have to try and join first.

          • allymax bruce

            It could come to that, Alexsandr. Like I said to Holly, maybe UK PM David Cameron is going to move rUK out of the EU by default. What a victory for his Conservative Party that would be!

            • Alexsandr

              What? Cameron and his cronies want to stay in the EU. The whole Westminster bubble want to.
              Why the scots are so worried about being in the EU beats me. what is the attraction of this undemocratic behemoth to Scotland?

              • allymax bruce

                I’m not fussed about being in, or out of the EU, Alexsandr; the point I’m making is, Barosso is a cretin, spewing out misinformation. The complexitie sof the situation means both rUK, and iScotland both hold very powerful EU cards. And, Barosso doesn’t like it!

    • HookesLaw

      The 75 referendum has nothing to do with the EU’s view of the UK. Basques have been firing pistols for years over independence. barroso is just pointing out a view facts and difficulties for Scotland – well Salmond really.

    • BarkingAtTreehuggers

      Has anyone considered the option that Scotland was in fact ‘sold’ to the ECB in return for Bank of England failure? A massive transfer of assets to confirm a new world order now HQed from a shiny new establishment in Frankfurt?
      We cannot deny this is rather impressive…
      http://www.presseurop.eu/files/images/article/Wolf-D-Prix%20.jpg?1366982529

      • allymax bruce

        And Scotland would be the center of the European universe?

        • BarkingAtTreehuggers

          No no no, stick with that thought for one moment – how would you go about the entire thing IF my premise was indeed the starting point?

          • HookesLaw

            ‘premise’ is rather a strong word don’t you think.

          • allymax bruce

            I was ‘accommodating’ your argument; look at the word ‘center’ I used!

      • HookesLaw

        What are you smoking?

      • Holly

        You reckon Salmond could be capable of planning this?

        All he has been spouting is, when we are ‘independent’, we will keep the pound sterling, and remain an EU member…..
        Oh, and the TV debate….Can’t forget the TV bit eh.
        You are easily impressed.

        • BarkingAtTreehuggers

          Why is Salmond ‘planning’ this? Cameron is.
          The asset transfer hypothesis is not that difficult to understand, is it?

    • The Laughing Cavalier

      In that case, we might get lucky and be thrown out.

    • e2toe4

      That means we already have to be kicked out because bits of Dorset and Devon have washed away reducing the former UK…………..blah blah

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