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Jim Murphy takes Union fight offline

26 February 2014

4:59 PM

26 February 2014

4:59 PM

‘The cyber-nat activity is disgraceful. They will trash anyone who disagrees with them. Their intention is to make people keep their heads down. Salmond could stop it, but he doesn’t choose to,’ said Alistair Darling, leader of the Better Together campaign, last month.

Supporters of Scottish nationalism have dominated the web for the last five years, slinging abuse and hatred at anyone who dares to speak in favour of the Union. They began in the Scottish newspapers’ online comment sections, honed their craft via email and found full voice with the advent of social media. Twitter is the cesspool of choice for the ‘cyber-nat’ community.

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Last year Ceilidh Watson, a former Miss Scotland, appeared in a Better Together launch video and was instantly bombarded by Tweets questioning her mental status, sexual promiscuity and future career prospects in an independent Scotland. None of these William Wallace web-wannabees used their own name, hiding instead behind pseudonyms and pixelated Saltires.

By comparison the pro-Union campaign is, like its leader, rather retiring. But Scottish Labour MP Jim Murphy appears to have been fighting back – not online, but on the Commons floor. Witnesses report that he told the SNP’s Pete Wishart to ‘Fuck off, fuck off, fuck off’ during a division. Disgraceful, as Darling might say!

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Show comments
  • Angus_MacLellan

    You’ve been cybernatted , ahhhh

  • http://sothewordis.blogspot.co.uk Nick Bain

    As with any debate, there is a mix of voices and varying degrees of rationalism and intelligence on both sides. Just finished an article on this very subject. No woad or heads on spikes.
    http://sothewordis.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/an-open-letter-to-scots-and-brits-from.html

  • Calgacus MacAndrews

    The Calton Cybernat Chapter on Glasgow Green this morning, celebrating 200 days to go until the independence referendum.

    http://imgur.com/WEJBCuz

  • rjbh

    I, aLabour voter for more than 40 years, have become one of those aweful CyberNats that Murphy would wish to ..”Go Away” Murphy your a jackass, alas I realise you and those other “Scottish Labour” MPs are only interested in your own career prospects…If you really wanted Scotlad to be a better place to live in, you would bow the knee to Alex Salmond, instead of George Osbourne and Ed Milliband.

  • Maidmarrion

    This is clickbait ,I therefore assume the Spectator is in trouble.
    As yet no-one has shown evidence of ” the evil cybernats” – the MSM is feeding junk prose on the debate at the behest of an establishment scared stiff that the Scots will vote YES.
    Citizen journalists are beating the MSM into a cockit hat and fewer and fewer papers are being bought .
    Scots being denigrated by MSM journalists and Westminsters finest makes even the mild mannered angry – I sometimes wonder if the powers that be are trying to provoke a violent response so that they can brand those involved as terrorists and send in the troops.
    The death of democracy by fair means or foul.
    Prior to some eejit telling me to grow up , if I grow up much more and I’ll be in a box.
    Before I die I want to see my country free of Westminster/Washington foreign policies, free of WMDs and the leaking radio active subs. Free to use her assets to cure the ills of the nation
    I want it to forge a better deal for the young ,old and all points in between but especially for the children and grand children of Scotland.
    What’s not to like?
    And of course there is the BIG question of WHY , if we are such an evil bunch of anti English , deep fried Mars bar munching , ignorant scroungers , does Westminster want to hang on to us?
    It can’t be just our good looks!
    Denigrating your enemy , suggesting they are ignorant and sub human has always been a strategy of those who wish to wage war – even if it is only a war of words.

  • Tamas Marcuis

    In order to understand the No camp’s attitude towards opposing views, here’s an alternative viewpoint on another matter, Northern Ireland.

    In the mid sixties the province’s Protestant dominated police force started a war against the Catholic population. The Catholics though forming almost half the population had virtually no political power and no representation in the professional or economic life of Ulster. They protested and were crushed.

    Disorganised and with little access to weapons they began to fight back against the murderous violence of the Police and Protestant mobs who burned them out of their homes. At this point the British Army arrived supposedly to separate the two factions and re-establish order. After a short time though they began openly supporting the Protestants. This was mark by an incident where a peaceful march in support of equal civil rights was attacked by British troops with the deaths of many unarmed civilians. The claims by the British Government that their troops were fired upon were contradicted by the recordings of foreign news correspondents. The British public was repeatedly told the Government’s version through the State controlled new service the BBC. There continued another two and a half decades of violence as the British Army and Security Police attempted to beat the Catholic population into submission. Finally the Catholics were victorious and the British Government surrendered equal control of the province. The protestant population having lost a position of great economic and social privilege remain unsurprisingly bitter at their defeat.

    This is the Viewpoint of the troubles in Northern Ireland held by many outside the British Isles. It is as valid as the almost opposite held dogmatically by many in the UK. To even see this stated will drive many into apoplexies of rage. So rigid are British beliefs held it is impossible to hold a debate. You are hated and despised for even holding a different opinion.

    This just about explains the hard line NO supporters attitude to those they describe as Cyber Nats.

  • Chris Hobson

    Scots have always been backward put up a border at the river tweed and watch the implosion, I look forward to it.

  • abystander

    Why did Murphy become abusive?
    Because Wishart was noting who was voting for what.
    Imagine that, in a Parliament. Poor Jim. Such provocation.

  • abystander

    Was the chap who appeared in court in Edinburgh for tweeting death threats to the First Minister a cybernat then? Like the fellow who wished Salmond’s father would die of cancer on a Labour party facebook.
    What grown up believes this kind of thing is one way?

  • FrankieThompson

    Is it just me , or has Jim Murphy got a constant expression of bafflement on his coupon?

    • Hoots’n’och the noodle

      To me it looks more like a permanent offence-taken-and-I’m-going-to-whine-about-it-until-I’m-sick, look.

  • timinsingapore

    The tactics of the Scotnat pro-split brigade sound remarkably like those of UKIP. Is the Spectator going to do a similar exposée of Nigel’s gang?

  • Alister_Troup

    I read that there should be two referendums, the first to start the negotiations, the send to ask on these terms do you want to go ahead. To me it seems sensible as it is a case of a lot of what-ifs would be answered and I would be dealing with facts.

    It’s facts which seem in short supply at present – the statement “to be negotiated” or negotiations appears about 200 times in Scotland’ Future.

  • FrankieThompson

    Shy retiring Jimmy Murphy, brought up the hard way, sleeping in a chest of drawers with his brothers, in grinding Scottish poverty , before his family decamped to South Africa, and then fighting his way through the NUS and the Labour Party to reach the beknighted heights he currently strides ?

    That Jim Murphy?

    Put off by choice language?

    Never, sir, never !

  • asalord

    Poor old Jim’s losing it. He went crazy in the four-letter-words department yesterday in the house of commons lobby.

    • Wessex Man

      well any reasonable person would with loonies like you around!

  • Cymrugel

    Murphy just flipped his wig in the commons and screamed abuse at a n SNP MP several times.
    The No camp must be getting really rattled.

    • The_greyhound

      Yup.

      The shafting the SNP took at Cowdenbeath last month (couldn’t scrape 29% of the poll) coming so soon after the shafting the Salmond took at Dunfermline has rattled Unionists everywhere.

      Welcome to the real world.

  • Alex Taylor

    Just a few words for ‘trougher’ Jim F*ck Off!!, F*ck Off!!! F*ck off!!!!

  • Bill McLean

    Odd then that the only investigation into cyber nastiness by Dr Mark Shephard and presented as a paper to the HOuse of Commons found that unionist posterswere far more vitriolic than independence supporters. The propaganda flying off the shelves in English newsagents is becoming like Pravda!

  • Rockin Ron

    This is what will happen in the referendum vote. There will be a 60:40 split in favour of the No vote. The Yes campaign will switch tactics to claim ‘Devomax’ powers. If successful, they will thus secure greater independence whilst the rest of the UK continues to fund them. Clever tactics from SNP. They are looking beyond the vote, hoping for a win, but preparing to make the best out of defeat. The No campaign should be doing the same, but there is no evidence of that.

    To all Scots people, I would genuinely say, please vote No. We really are better together.

  • Maidmarrion

    It appears Mr Murphy is more personal in his abuse.
    ” F%ch off! F%ck off! F%ck off!”
    As someone below the line has mentioned all these high profile folk screaming
    ” cybernat abuse” have had their facebook checked by many and various and no evil cybernat abuse found.
    Interestingly the only tweet agin’ Sir Chris Hoy contained a reference to ” Braveheart” something only a stupid unionist ever does.

    • terregles2

      If he keeps up that behaviour he will be elevated to the House of Lords super quick.

    • Hoots’n’och the noodle

      Bravepanties is better.

  • terence patrick hewett

    Cybernat activity follows the classical definition of propaganda outlined by Leonard Shapiro:
    “the true object of propaganda is neither to convince nor even to persuade, but to produce a uniform pattern of public utterance in which the first trace of unorthodox thought reveals itself as a jarring dissonance.”

    Strategy has been obvious for years: It is to continuously provoke the English in the hope of getting a reaction, then feeding on the Scottish backlash.

    • Jambo25

      Proof, any proof of your contention please. The truth is ‘cybernats’ do not have to provoke the English. Resentment, patronisation and dislike of Scots from sections of the English population and much wider sections of the English based media has been there long before ‘cybernats’ were a gleam in the interweb’s eye.

      • The_greyhound

        Whining victimhood as recreation. Pathetic.

        • Jambo25

          of course because it disagrees with your point. Unfortunately, it tends to back up mine.

          • The_greyhound

            But you didn’t have a point, so it would be difficult for anything to back it up.

            • Jambo25

              Keep on digging sweetie.

      • terence patrick hewett

        Well Jambo the answer to yr first question is “observation.” An answer to yr secondary contention is that as a student, I shared a flat for 3 years with a Glaswegian Dr of Mathematics and not a cross word did we have. Plenty of chaff yes; but that is simply a rhetorical device employed by those that share a complex history. I have to say that over a lifetime as a professional engineer engaging his trade ove 4 continents; I have never encountered the hatred that you describe; but again plenty of chaff. But this is also true between inter-Caledonian and inter-English rivalry.

        As an English Catholic married to an Irish Catholic I rather have an interesting perspective on the history of our be-nighted islands and I have to say; rather a cynical one.

        Let us construct a simple mathematical model:
        Given that everyone has 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great-grandparents, 16 great-great-grandparents, 32 great-great-great-grandparents et al: and if we assume that there is a re-generation every 20 years, the after 100 years then we have 2 to the power 5 antecedents which equals 32.
        Go back 200 years the we have 2 to the power 10 antecedents which equals 1024. Go back 400 years and we have 2 to the power 20 antecedents which equals 1,048,586 antecedents. Go back 800 years and we have 2 to the power 40 antecedents which equals 1000 billion antecedents.
        Everyone has this ancestry: it is a physical impossibility not to have so the implication is that we are all related to each other. An erect p*nis apparently have no conscience whatsoever.

        Go well with God Brother: go well with God.

        • Jambo25

          So still no proof.

          • terence patrick hewett

            As I said “observation” I have no axe to grind.

  • saffrin

    Supporters of Scottish nationalism should turn their backs on Salmond as his idea of an independent Scotland is one dominated by the unelected tunnel visioned technocrat troughers in Brussels.
    Brussels, knowing the English are bent on leaving the EU, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to learn in years to come Salmond was/is a long term EU fifth columnist.

  • Tony Quintus

    The cyber-nats can be as nasty as they like, there are two simple facts which they cannot ignore
    1: The independence campaign look like a bunch of amateurs
    2: In the event of a Yes vote, it will be in the interest of the parliament of Westminster to set the most lopsided terms for the Crown granting Scotland independent nation status.
    The crown, via the Westminster government will set the Sea borders (determining the exact share of north sea oil Scotland gets, the gas is all well to the south), the Crown will dictate debt levels, set what remains crown property, like Faslane for instance, the ownership of governement buildings, including the Holyrood parliament. And if a post “Yes” vote Salmond wants an independent Scotland he will have to accept these terms, or the bill to grant Scotland’s independence will never get through westminster. Any attempt to unilaterally seceed would leave Scotland owning none of the organs of governance, a pariah state filled with madmen howling against the night.

    • CameronB

      Ever heard of international law? Think Scotland can’t survive without Westminster largess? Do you think England owns Scotland?

      A bunch of ‘amateur’ independence supporters (cybernats?), croudfunded over £70,000 in a little over 12 hours today, to fund the Scottish political blog “Wings Over Scotland”. Such is the level of public dissatisfaction with the pro-unionist bias and bile that is closing the debate down in both press and TV. I doubt you will hear anything of this spectacular achievement in tomorrows press or TV. There is still a month to go on the fund raiser if you would like to contribute.

      You need to employ far more critical thinking to the MSM’s disinformation, if you want to understand the indy-ref., That is also the only way you are going to shed that rather unappealing colonialist attitude you have there. For example, will Scotland be shut out of the EU or will she be uniquely fast-tracked in to the Euro,. Or is North Sea oil about to deliver a massive bonus to the UK economy, or is it a volatile commodity on the point of running out? These and many similar contradictions are published almost on a daily basis to defend the Union, because fear, smear, smoke and mirrors are the only tools available to Better Together a.k.a. ‘Project Fear’.

      THERE IS NO POSITIVE CASE FOR THE UNION

      • CameronB

        P.S. Do you think England also owns the Crown?

      • saffrin

        There is no positive case for an independent Scotland, espesially as Scotland’s hopes rest on anything but Independence.
        EU or UK.

        • Jambo25

          A lot of us prefer the EU. We’re sick of living in a state that does the kind of deals the Downey case brought up.

      • allymax bruce

        I attended a forum last night on Scottish Independence, facilitated by the Edinburgh Active Citizens Group, and one of the participating guests asked the panel ‘where did all our oil money go?’ To rapturous applause of the question, came the reply, by both Yes & No panel speakers, ‘it went on Polaris, M25, the refinance of a manufactuirng economy to a City of London finance-based economy, and, …. wait for it, ……. paying Westminster’s Debt !

        • The_greyhound

          Whose oil money? The Shetlands say it’s theirs, and once they’re off the nationalists will be cadging food parcels.

          • Bugger (the Panda)

            an old and readily disprovable canard.

      • Wessex Man

        NO OR YES I AGREE SO STOP WHINGING AND GET OURT THERE ON THE DOORSTEPS HAMMERING ON THOSE DOORS GETTING YOUR MOJO ACROSS, OR HAVEN’T YOU GOT ANY!

      • Tony Quintus

        There really is no such thing as “International law” only treaties and those willing to enforce them, no England does not own Scotland, the Crown however has Dominion over Scotland and retains ownership of most of the government assets Scotland would require as an independent nation. And until the Crown passes a bill though its institutions of government, in this case the Westminster Parliament, it will not be an international matter, it will be internal politics.

        THERE IS NO POSITIVE CASE FOR INDEPENDENCE!

  • dougthedug

    “The English, Welsh and Irish MPs were ok. They were actually quite charming, thinking perhaps I was only a temporary visitor. But the Scots were so rude. They shouted abuse in the Chamber and insulted me in the corridors. It got so bad the Leader of the House had to warn them to behave.”

    Winnie Ewing SNP MP, Westminster 1967 from an interview in 2009.

    Not much has changed in the Labour attitude to the SNP in Westminster then.

  • dougthedug

    Last year Ceilidh Watson, a former Miss Scotland, appeared in a Better
    Together launch video and was instantly bombarded by Tweets questioning
    her mental status, sexual promiscuity and future career prospects in an
    independent Scotland.”

    Strangely enough I searched on her twitter handle for abuse at the time as the reports of abuse from independence supporters concerned me but I found nothing. I did the same with Susan Calman when every paper told us that she was the subject of vile abuse and I also found nothing.

    It appears the cybernat is the online Macavity,

    “He’s the bafflement of Fleet Street, the Journalist’s despair:
    For when they reach the scene of crime – Macavity’s not there!”

    Though of course the MSM tell us he was anyway.

    • Auldreekie

      Not merely an absence of abuse: at least some of the allegations of ‘cyberbullying’ attacks have been traced back to no firmer evidence than unionist suggestions that such attacks were imminent.

  • rjbh

    Shock as Labour MP launches foul-mouthed tirade in House of Commons
    Yes Jim show us your true colours…

  • Roddy Mac

    Yet in these so called “cybernat” attacks not one shred of evidence not even so much as a tweet has been brought forward to back up these so called “attacks”

    The truth is ,even today the Establishment /Unionists control ALL of the MSM ,Broadcasting and control the message ,or propaganda if you prefer.

    The internet of course is another matter ,and being unable to control social media and the “message” the unionists lie about alleged cybernat attacks.

    In reality look at any UK newspaper threads and it is Unionists and especially the right wingers that hurl racist comments day on day.

    The MSM is verging on racist and stoking up a great deal of Anti Scottishness in our society

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/a-developing-theme/

    If you were to put the words ,Jew ,Black,Muslim in front of some of these attacks on Scots PC Plod would be knocking on many doors.
    Murphy’s action today is no shock or surprise to anyone on the side of Scottish Self determination

  • HenBroon

    The volume of the the vile comments made about Scotland has recently been cranked up, a perfect demonstration of the fear running through the ranks of Westminster seeking spines to ascend.If these comments were made about Pakistan most of the biased MSM would be in court. Spare us your pious bleating please.
    http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/2014/02/25/outraged-tunbridge-wells/

    • Wessex Man

      Oh dear, I’ve often wondered where you got your lunacy from and now you confirm it, dear old Derek Bateman the biggest conspiracy theorist in Scotland, you merely confirm my thoughts about you and allow the world a good laugh!

      • Maidmarrion

        All you ever do is sneer , perhaps you could find a more useful occupation that crowding every site about independence?
        After all you have already stated how delighted you will be when we leave – what more can you say?

  • CameronB

    VIRUS ALERT VIRUS ALERT!

    IT’S GENETIC!

    I’m looking forward to the day a Yes vote ‘retires’ you Mr. Murphy. You’re not exactly a March Violet are you?

    • Meg McLean

      Megaphone Murphy..once a member of the Socialist Workers Party. Now a pseudo tory.
      I am sad that someone I used to enjoy a fight with as he sold the paper on the steps of Strathclyde Union should sink so low and disgrace his teachers

      • allymax bruce

        ‘More moral than thee’? That’s a Labour Party epithet; and lie. I asked Ian Davidson if he thought ‘lyingcheatingconning/psychological warfare brainwashing propaganda’ was more moral than ‘puerile & vulgar’? He refused to answer! Jim Murphy only swore; everybody swears; so don’t get snooty. The sooner the Labour Party realises it cannot con Scots society with fake virtues of moral imperatives, the sooner they will become defunct; and we can all get on with honest politics! Labour is past-history; no amount of Labour Party psychological warfare ‘moralising the amoral’ epithets & lies will save them now.
        allymax.

      • Bugger (the Panda)

        I don’t think he ever graduated?

        • Meg McLean

          *sigh* Yes , he did.

    • loftytom

      Yes vote? ROFL

  • HenBroon

    The vile comments on line made about Alex Salmond/ Scotland/ SNP/ Yes voters, is made about the Pakistani nation would have most of these paers closed by now. However Scotland is fair game to the unionist biased foreign owned MSM. Spare us your pious whimpering unionists. Murphy is demonstrating all the traits of a cabal who know this is one fight they are never going to win. Resort to foul language and insults. http://derekbateman1.wordpress.com/2014/02/25/outraged-tunbridge-wells/

  • rjbh

    As one who likes to put in his tuppence worth as much as the next man, it seems to me that Murphy is unhappy with those who disagree with him. The best word for you Jim is “Bollocks” SNP supporters , or those posing as SNP supporters. Are entitled to their view as he is.

    • Wessex Man

      perish the thought that he might just be fed up with the loony tunes thrown at him daily.

      • Bob Waugh

        Perish the thought that he should have to put up with criticism at all.

  • Angus_MacLellan

    The so called ‘cybernats’ poison every forum they converge on. They started at the Scotsman, progressed to the Herald and are now attacking Alan Cochrane’s articles at the DT (among others). Their attacks are almost always on the man i.e. through these boards one finds that Alistair Darling was born in London (and therefore not Scottish).

    The ironic aspect about the ‘cybernats’ is that most aren’t even Scottish – many are incomers. Their focal point seems to be this site – the idiotically named ‘wings over Scotland’ AKA -Marxism central.

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/stop-this-sick-filth/

    • Derick Tulloch

      Provide evidence of this ‘poison’.
      Provide evidence that Wings espouses Marxism.

      sssss. sssssss. ssssssss. the sound of tumbleweeds rolling by….

      • Jambo25

        I would second your request. I am regularly referred to as a “maniac”, “zealot”, “fanatic” etc etc by some of the more persistent Britnats on here. I would suspect that you are as well. S)P for the Britnats and Engnats.

        • Michael Mckeown

          You want evidence of abusive cybernats while dishing out abuse? epic!

          • Derick Tulloch

            Unable to provide evidence of alleged vile cybernattery then.

            Michael is a diligent pupil, but is prone to rhetoric at the expense of evidence. He is willing, but must try harder. C-

            • Michael Mckeown

              You are providing the evidence yourselves but cant see it.

              • cynicalhighlander
              • Jambo25

                Still waiting to see your examples of my abusiveness. Where is it please?

                • Michael Mckeown
                • Jambo25

                  Still waiting. Simply putting up what appears to be my entire Disqus posting history isn’t proof.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Its the mother load.

                • Jambo25

                  Well point out what is specifically abusive.

                • Bob Waugh

                  Jambo, you have the temerity to question Those Who Just Know.
                  How very dare you?

                • Jambo25

                  I sometimes think that I live in a parallel universe to these people.

                • Wessex Man

                  oh please oh please be in a parallel universe!

                • Bob Waugh

                  I assume that like me you’re an Edinburgh man, but unlike me still live there? I’ve been living in Oxford for over thirty years now, and I have some good news.
                  These Kippers and Tory backwoodsmen are not as typical of English folk as they think; their utter lack of self-awareness comes from going round in small circles talking to one another. Most English people I have met have a very positive view of Scotland, quite a few want us to regain our Independence for positive reasons (unlike the “piss off” sentiments to be seen here) and I have often been asked why we haven’t done it along time ago.
                  After a Yes vote they will hopefully rise their voices.

                • Jambo25

                  My wife’s English. I worked in England for a number of years. I went to university in England and I have a lot of English friends. The thing is that there was always an ignorance of the Scottish reality even amongst some very nice English people plus a rather patronising attitude that came from that. The vast mass of English people were always very nice and hospitable but that lack of knowledge of Scotland has led to the weird ideas about Scots being ‘subsidy junkies’ , ‘anti-English racists’ that a growing number, it appears, of some English people have.
                  In addition to that there seems to be something genuinely nasty growing in parts of the south as well. It isn’t so much a simple anti-Scottish thing but a general breakdown of trust and a search for scapegoats. Jocks, Taffs, Northerners, public sector workers (especially teachers), immigrants and lowering over it all, that axis of evil, the EUSSR. I think this is down to a number of things. Economic dislocation, growing regional differences and mass immigration. Fling in the referendum as a last ingredient and light the blue touch paper.

                • Michele Keighley

                  Ah yes but Bob you live in Oxford – and Oxford is well known for it’s complete ignorance of what the rest of England is actually thinking. It was the same when I was there, we pontificated on how ‘England’ felt and would act and were amazed how emphatically they ignored us!!

                • Bob Waugh

                  Oxford is a singular pace, Michelle – you are right there – but there are others such. Last September I found myself in a pub in Liverpool being asked by a Scouser who’d worked on the rigs whether Alex Salmond was “really London’s man”. He was all for Scottish independence as it would “hit London” but was concerned we were not going to be sold short.
                  I was a bit nonplussed to have this put to me in England (I did reply that Alex is a committed patriot with a deep confidence in the people of Scotland being who they choose to be) , but my daughter (a student at Liverpool University) who was watching with amusement, later told me of a local saying “in England but not of it”.
                  I reckon that tale might stir some sentiments among the usual suspects…..

          • Jambo25

            1) What abuse? 2) Do you find calling people “maniac”, “zealot”, “fanatic” etc acceptable?

    • HenBroon
    • Andrew Morton

      Brilliant parody Angus!

    • ChuckieStane

      Angus, take a look at the postings by the likes of the delightful “Raw England” who regularly proposes war with Scotland. (He wants ethnic cleansing in England too btw). Nothing from a pro-indy poster that I have ever seen plumbs such depths. However, I do not in any way associate his unhinged views with the unionist camp.
      I don’t quite get your point about “aren’t even Scottish – many are incomers”. Scottish independence is nothing to do with ethnicity. Independence is supported by many Scots of varying backgrounds including many English. I would much rather live in a ethnically diverse Scotland with “incomers” than the ethnically pure country Raw England and his followers propose on these boards.

    • Bugger (the Panda)

      You just made that up.

  • MichtyMe

    The anti nat lexicon, even at this place, can be depressingly juvenile with a penchant for the personal, scroungers, fat, junkies subsidy/other, bucket of lard, whiners etc etc, yes it is all there, you know who you are and we can scroll back for the evidence.

  • Bob Waugh

    I’m a pleasant cyber-Nat (yes, really). And I’ve seen some ill-thought-out pro-indy postings. But most of the Scottish nationalist comment you get on the Spec is reasoned, it is just that it “comes from a different place” and seems to unsettle some of the usual crowd.
    I suggest you look at how they then react – the arrogance and condescension, as well as amazing levels of ignorance. Given that I think we are quite dignified and restrained really.

    • Michael Mckeown

      When you have a dear leader deciding for you that you will be sharing your currency and having open borders etc without the slightest bit of consultation then its only natural to get irritated with the SNP and those that preach its ways.

      • Derick Tulloch

        Ah, cyberbrits, dear dear cyberbrits

        Exhibit A ‘dear leader’.

        A reference of course to a genocidal dictator, by which the cyberbrit attempts to link First Minister with the North Korean nutjobs, and by association Scotland with North Korea

        Next!

        • Michael Mckeown

          Salmond is dictating to the rest of the UK but he is also dictating to you but you have not grasped that yet.

          A yes vote is not a mandate for the SNP to do anything at all but they have still made plans that they will execute that include issues not voted for from joining Scotland to the EU to setting a constitution and currency all without your explicite consent so yes its fair to imply Salmond is a dictator.

          Please stop and think before you attack those defending your rights.

          • Derick Tulloch

            None of the above, Michael.

            A Yes vote is a mandate to negotiate the terms of Independence. All the rest will be up to the Parliament of Scotland, which may or may not include the SNP

            Can we at least agree we can’t stand Murphy and the other SLAB hypocrites? I prefer an honest Tory, as at least you get what it says on the tin.

            • Michael Mckeown

              A yes vote is no mandate at all.

              ‘Should Scotland be an independent country?’ not ‘Should Scotland be an independent country and join the EU and use the £ while being a monarchy and authorizing a
              devolved government to take on the role of MP’s in negotiating Scotland’s standing with the world?’

              Now you are in denial here or you are just one of them that defend the SNP no matter what as even the SNP do not deny that they will join Scotland into the EU before independence and will set the currency before the first elections and will set the monarchy before the first elections also.

              Please stop and think before you attack those defending your rights.

              • Derick Tulloch

                All of those things are true.

                The point of Independence is that it will allow us to change things thereafter.

                Thank you for your kind offer of assistance, but I am more than capable of defending my rights.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  OK so they are true so you now admit you were wrong so thats good but since you were wrong about that what makes you think you are not wrong about getting choices after independence? Seriously how hard is it to get out of the EU? how many centuries does the monarchy typically last? does a currency really change each election?

                  The SNP are asserting a yes vote is a vote for them to do as they please and that is dangerous and needs challenging but the cybernats are only sowing the seeds to their own subservience by defending the SNP no matter what, you have your refurendum so you do not need to defend the indefensible so will you now agree, now you admitted the above are true, that Salmond is a dictator?

                • Derick Tulloch

                  Nope.

                  Rather than ‘Tweedy Tory in Golf Club rhetoric’ let’s look at what the Scottish Government have actually, publicly, committed themselves to:

                  “2.7 Following a ‘yes’ vote in the referendum, the Scottish Government will invite representatives from the other parties in the Scottish Parliament, together with representatives of Scottish civic society, to join the Government in negotiating the independence settlement and in ensuring the continuity of those public services which are in reserved areas”

                  Scottish Government, (2013), Scotland’s Future: From the Referendum to Independence, Edinburgh, Page 14
                  http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0041/00413757.pdf

                • Michael Mckeown

                  So they say but they are also out in the media telling everyone how things will be without any external help, think it through!

                • cynicalhighlander

                  Don’t worry MM not all Scots have the genetic deficiency which the Labour party Scottish leader says she and her other BritNats have

                • Michael Mckeown

                  No Scot is genetically modified, what made you think they were?

                • Wessex Man

                  will you loonies stop calling other Scots who oppose you Britnats, you sound like Nazis. They are every bit as Scottish as you.

                • terregles2

                  A large proportion of the YES campaigners are not members of the SNP. They are from the other four political Scottish parties who are campaigning for a YES vote.
                  You appear to have tunnel vision and seem unable to see past the SNP who are only one part of the independence movement.

          • Jambo25

            Actually, I feel completely undictated to by Salmond. If I disagree with any of the measures that you clearly don’t like, I’ll vote against the SNP as you are entitled to do.

            • Michael Mckeown

              When did you vote for an independent Scotland to join the EU?

              • Jambo25

                I haven’t but then I couldn’t vote against it until Scotland became independent. However, I wholly approve of Scotland joining the EU and the Euro for that matter.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  You cant vote against it at all as Salmond will, according to him, join Scotland in the EU before independence and without asking, do you still not feel dictated too?

                • Jambo25

                  Then if we don’t like it we vote Salmond out but then I would rather like it.

                • terregles2

                  I feel dictated to by Westminster especially as they have decided they will spend my taxes on Trident and HS2. They have also wasted my tax in the past on PFI schools and hospitals,
                  I would never vote for people like Cameron or Clegg or Miliband but I will get them anyway in the future if Scotland votes no in September.

              • CameronB

                As a supposed partner in the UK, Scotland is already part of the EU. We have not had the chance to vote on that one yet.

              • Meg McLean

                We have the sense to want EU membership. If England does not …bye..Mind you I doubt your prospective UKIP/Tory government will allow you or any other subject any say in that

                • Wessex Man

                  oh dear the last 18 comments are from Scots, yet you ‘doubt your prospective UKIP/Tory government’ who are you lambasting, why it’s a fellow Scot!

                  If and when you attain your ‘independence’ it will be none of your business who the Government in Westminster is.

                • Bob Waugh

                  It isn’t such already. Scotland gets the government England decides. i refer you to most General Election results since 1945.

                • Wessex Man

                  Rubbish, I suggest you look up the Cabinet number of the labour Government last in Office.

                • Bob Waugh

                  …elected, as in 1997 and 2003, on the basis of votes in English consistences.

                • terregles2

                  Tony Blair was elected on a landslide of English votes. He would have had a large majority even without any Scottish MPs. He had lots of Scots in his cabinet as did Brown but as Westminster is a British parliament that should hardly be an issue.

                • Meg McLean

                  I will get back to you in 3 years. Let us see what the future brings. We can have a wee contrast and compare then. It’s a promise

          • CameronB

            The White Paper is an outline of how the SNP, as acting Scottish government, plan to manage the transition to independence.

            This appear perfectly reasonable and responsible conduct for a governing administration that was returned with a overwhelming majority (in a PR system, no less). Would you have it otherwise?

          • Meg McLean

            Which rights would those be? We will have a written constitution and become citizens of our country (Scotland if you have not guessed) not subjects.

          • Tamas Marcuis

            Fact – you have had an open border with Ireland since independence.

            Fact – you had a currency union with Ireland for almost 60 years as well as a large group of countries under the Sterling Zone( look it up )

            Fact – SNP policy is to continue an open border, the UK government claims it will immediately close that border. Obviously border posts would only be on the English side of the Solway Water. Salmond pointed out the foolishness of this UK policy.

            Fact – The UK uses the Bank of England as a central bank. So despite the word England in the title it is not a specifically and solely English possession but a joint asset. The SNP has proposed continuing it’s existence. The UK has stated it’s policy is to take sole possession of the Bank. Salmond pointed out that international law in the event England refused to hand over or negotiate joint assets, would allow Scotland to walk away from any commitment to take a share of national debt. See break up of USSR and Yugoslavia for examples.

            So Scots makes a proposal and the English response has the tone of a wife beater saying ” you can only get a divorce when I say so, I’m keeping everything, you get nothing I don’t care what the law says”.

            • Michael Mckeown

              Fact: There has not been an open border since Irish independence.

              Fact: There was never a currency union with Ireland, Ireland pegged to the £ with no influence or UK central bank guarantee.

              Since your first two ‘facts’ were wrong I stopped reading.

        • Maidmarrion

          He used to pervade the Herald along with his pal OBE ,now we only have OBE and his ” I hate Alex Salmond ” outpourings – reminds me of Cochrane’s witterings in the DT.
          I find it astonishing that a so called ” quality” paper of Scotland accepts ad nauseam trolling by anyone – even one with an OBE.

      • Guest

        If you get bored with the “Dear Leader” title Michael here’s a few you might want to try on (but warning using them does not make you any smarter or Alex Salmond any less correct)EnglishComment당중앙
        (黨中央)Party CenterThe first of Kim Jong-il’s titles. Has been in use since 1973 after Kim was secretly appointed as his father’s successor and until it was officially announced in order to mention Kim Jong-il in press without calling him by name.[3]웃분Superior PersonThe title has been in use since the middle of the 1970s.[3]친애하는 지도자
        (親愛하는 指導者)Dear LeaderThis title was the most common one during Kim Il-sung’s rule.[3]존경하는 지도자
        (尊敬하는 指導者Respected LeaderThe title has been in use since the middle of the 1970s.[3]현명한 지도자
        (賢明한 指導者)Wise Leader영명하신 지도자
        (英明하신 指導者)Brilliant Leader유일한 지도자
        (唯一한 指導者)Unique LeaderThe title has been in use since June 1975.[3]령도자가 갖추어야 할 풍모를 완벽하게 지닌 친애하는 지도자Dear Leader, who is a perfect incarnation of the appearance that a leader should haveIn use since the mid-1980s on special occasions.[3]최고사령관
        (最高司令官)Commander-in-ChiefFirst mentioned in the middle of the 1980s before Kim was officially appointed as Korean People’s Army Commander-in-Chief.[3]위대한 령도자
        (偉大한 領導者)Great LeaderThe most common of current Kim Jong-il’s titles.[3]인민의 어버이
        (人民의 어버이)Father of the PeopleIn use since February 1986.[3]공산주의 미래의 태양
        (共産主義 未來의 太陽)Sun of the Communist FutureIn use since the middle of the 1980s.[3]백두광명성
        (百頭光明星)Shining Star of Paektu Mountain향도의 해발Guiding Sun Ray혁명무력의 수위Leader of the Revolutionary Armed ForcesIn use since December 21, 1991, when Kim Jong-il became Commander-in-Chief of the Korean People’s Army.[3]조국통일의 구성Guarantee of the Fatherland’s Unification조국 통일의 상징Symbol of the Fatherland’s Unification민족의 운명
        (民族의 命運)Fate of the Nation자애로운 아버지Beloved Father당과 국가와 군대의 수위Leader of the Party, the country, and the Army수령
        (首領)LeaderBecame common after Kim Il-sung’s death.[3]장군
        (將軍)GeneralOne of the most common titles. In use since 1994.[3]우리당과 우리 인민의 위대한 령도자Great Leader of our Party and of our NationIn use since 1994.[3]위대한 장군님
        (偉大한 將軍님)Great General경애하는 장군님Beloved and Respected General위대한 수령
        (偉大한 首領)Great LeaderWhen Kim Il-sung was alive, this title was used only to refer to him.[3]경애하는 수령Beloved and Respected Leader백전백승의 강철의 령장
        (百戰百勝의 鋼鐵의 靈將)Ever-Victorious, Iron-Willed CommanderIn use since 1997 after the 3-year mourning for Kim Il-sung ended.[3]사회주의 태양
        (社會主義 太陽)Sun of Socialism민족의 태양
        (民族의 太陽)Sun of the Nation삶의 태양The Great Sun of Life민족의 위대한 태양
        (民族의 偉大한 太陽)Great Sun of The NationIn use since 1999 after the new DPRK constitution was accepted in 1998.[3]민족의 어버이
        (民族의 어버이)Father of the Nation21세기의 세계 수령
        (21世紀의 世界 首領)World Leader of The 21st CenturyIn use since 2000.[3]불세출의 령도자Peerless Leader21세기 차란한 태양
        (21世紀 차란한 太陽)Bright Sun of the 21st Century21세기 위대한 태양
        (21世紀 偉大한 太陽)Great Sun of the 21st Century21세기 향도자Leader of the 21st Century희세의 정치가Amazing politician천출위인
        (天出偉人)Great Man, Who Descended From Heaven천출명장Glorious General, Who Descended From Heaven민족의 최고영수Supreme Leader of the Nation주체의 찬란한 태양Bright Sun of Juche당과 인민의 수령Leader of the Party and the People위대한 원수님Great Marshal무적필승의 장군Invincible and Ever-triumphant General경애하는 아버지Dear Father21세기의 향도성Guiding Star of the 21st Century실천가형의 위인Great Man, Who Is a Man of Deeds위대한 수호자Great Defender구원자Savior혁명의 수뇌부Mastermind of the Revolution혁명적 동지애의 최고화신Highest Incarnation of the Revolutionary Comradely Love각하His Excellency영원한 당 총비서Eternal General Secretary of the PartySince April 2012.[4]

      • terregles2

        How do you know who the First Ministwer will be after the first general election in an Independent Scotland.?
        How do you know which political party will win power in the first post independent Scottish general election.?
        Who is dear leader…?

    • asalord

      Well said,Bob.

      BTW: wingsoverscotland.com has just raised over £50,000 in 24 hours from voluntary contributions from cybernats.

      http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/let-s-finish-the-job

      • Michael Mckeown

        And the owner is laughing all the way to the bank, what a scam!

        • asalord

          Hello Michael. Great news about WOS, and this on the same day as unionist newspapers in Scotland show another sharp decline in circulation figures.

          • Michael Mckeown

            All papers show a sharp decline in circulation, it’s not the end it’s not even the beginning of the end but newsprint has had it’s day.

            • Jambo25

              The ‘Hootsmon’, a once really great paper, is going down to the tubes very rapidly indeed.

              • Michael Mckeown

                All of them are but their online presence is increasing, newspapers are dead, its all about interactive news these days.

                • Jambo25

                  I think the Hootsmon will be dead before a number of other titles.

                • cynicalhighlander

                  Its not just the the newspapers though is it!

            • Jambo25

              Apparently the joint circulation for the Herald and Hootsmon is now less than the Herald’s alone about a decade ago.

              • Michael Mckeown

                You cant make a political point out of this, are you trying?, as all newspapers across the UK are in the same boat.

                • Jambo25

                  The print media is dying but the Hootsmon is dying that bit quicker. I wonder why?

                • Michael Mckeown

                  It was bigger, the Scotsman is a union friendly paper but its demise has being going on for a long time now so its difficult to see any link if thats where you are going.

                • Jambo25

                  I used to be a subscriber to the Hootsmon but I packed that in some years ago. I don’t buy either the Hootsmon or Scotland on Sunday at all now. The only Scottish paper I buy and the only one I trust on the referendum is the Sunday Herald.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  The Herald are telling you what you like to here and they approve the comments you want to read but thats a marketing ploy and has nothing to do with trust. Trust no one.

                • Jambo25

                  The Herald is telling me what I want to hear with Marcus Gardham as political editor and people like David Torrance as regular columnists? Do you ever read the paper?

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Every day online, it’s a nat hang out that does the bare minimum to appear unbiased.

                • kris mcfadyen

                  You are wrong about that Michael. There is an OBE from Woking who regularly posts on the Herald website. Non of my posts that challenge him to tell what his real agenda is and which government department he really works for ever see the light of day.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  John’s posts are funny but on a serious note he is the only consistent poster over there with the rest thinking what ever the SNP think at that time.

                • Bugger (the Panda)

                  Aye, but who tells the OBEs what to think and say?

                • Michael Mckeown

                  He’s smart enough to form his own opinions unlike the flock off sheep over there that just post whatever the SNP think.

                • kris mcfadyen

                  Michael you seem to be missing my point. The OBE is far from funny. He is a nasty individuals. I have personally experienced this. He made a baseless complaint to my employer in an attempt to have me disciplined based on some of my posts.
                  He has an agenda which I believe to be sinister. Do you think that the UK security services do not covertly join the Indidebate? ?

                • john

                  I think you meant to say hear.

          • loftytom

            Erm, all print media is going down the tubes, though I hear that Bawjaws Eck will be producing a Caledonian version of Der Sturmer in time for the referendum

            • Bob Waugh

              I don’t suppose you have any evidence for that. I don’t suppose you fell any need to bother when “its only the Scots”.

              • loftytom

                I could tell you, but wee Nicola says I would have to kill you.

                • Bob Waugh

                  Aye, right.

        • HenBroon

          WOS is doing the job that our foreign owned press are gentically incapable of doing. Which is why the site has been under DOOS attacks for weeks. Scotland is laughing all the way to disuniting with over bearing imperilaist English toffs, who sneer down their noses at us safe on oil platforms in the North Sea whilst refusing to debate with our popular leader. Cowardice in not an attractive trait in any leader even an English one.

          • Wessex Man

            I rather think that you are the sort of Cybernat nutcase that Steerpike is referring to! Your hatred of the English people knows no bounds. your comments if stated about Scotland by a similiar English halfwit as you, would have you all up in arms demanding action.

            I rather fear for Scotland with people like you there no matter the result, you are turning any debate into soured milk, how will you all reconcile after the referendum?

            • Jambo25

              Having doubts about warmish bitter is enough to have one elevated to the status of English hater in your eyes. I actually quite like warmish bitter by the way. Any idea where I can get a decent pint of Bass? Is it still brewed?

              • Wessex Man

                now that’s just silly billy, why when this is all over I look forward to coming up to Scotland and chasing a couple of pints of English cider down with a decent dram or two

                • Jambo25

                  I am being serious about the Bass. It used to be quite widely available up here but I haven’t seen it for awhile either in Scotland or England. Is it still brewed.

                • Wessex Man

                  I’ve no idea, I haven’t actually seen it in years.

                • Jambo25

                  Last despairing call. Anybody know if Bass is still available in the Edinburgh area?

            • Cymrugel

              Come now.
              Since this whole thing started I have seen nats portrayed as racists and lunatics; Scots as fools and parasites; their country as a basket case that lives on the dole and largesse of England; their culture dismissed as a tartan joke; their assets either denied or claimed by England; Salmond has been portrayed as a would be dictator ( I mean seriously?) and the Scots in general have been treated with utter scorn and derision.
              This isn’t just the usual political rough and tumble. This is real hatred and contempt being displayed towards an inferior getting above their station.
              In fact I am coming to the conclusion that if the no vote prevails the kind of nastiness that has been displayed towards Scotland in the UK press has poisoned the relationship between the countries to such an extent that it will inevitably lead to the end of the union in the longer run. People are not going to forget this in a hurry.
              The attitude towards Scotland is that it is a subject nation getting above its place and which must be slapped down. No-one with any self respect is going to tolerate such treatment.
              Imagine the reaction in England if, having voted to leave the EU, that organisation threatened to cripple the UK economy in the way that Scotland is being threatened.

              • Bob Waugh

                Thanks. When the vote is done there will have to be some sort of settlement – either way – and balanced voices like yours will need to be heard.

              • Bill Kenny

                Come on, is’nt time you had that paranoia looked at??

                • Cymrugel

                  Don’t be silly and rude
                  Either engage in discussion or do something else.

              • Wessex Man

                Well we wouldn’t be demanding currency union with the EU would we, even if we had said the their currency was a millstone around our necks, ah well dream on.

              • St George

                The scots are the most racist piece of the UK read the judgment in Souster v BBC. They think Braveheart is a well researched documentary. How would the conceited SNP pay for the RBS 8 bn loss reported today? Scotland’s bank England’s debt? Don’t think so. Man up Salmonella. Happy to see the back of you and we will welcome your migrants. Most sensible scots are here already.

                • Maidmarrion

                  Trolling – pity it’s long past it’s sell by date .
                  Didn’t you know that the only folk who mention Braveheart are dyed in the wool unionists? As for the puerile reference to the First Minister – well , it’s grown whiskers and died a long time passing.

              • HJ777

                Tolerate what treatment, exactly?

                What ‘nastiness’ towards Scotland in the UK press?

                When did ‘England’ either “deny or claim” Scottish assets?

                I would say that it is Salmond and his ilk that are treating Scots with scorn and derision (not to mention the rest of the UK which he has threatened if it doesn’t agree to a currency union). If Salmond is being honest with Scots, then why did he spend £20k of public money trying to cover up the fact that the legal advice that he claimed to have received on Scottish EU membership simply didn’t exist? Why does his white paper make all sorts of policy promises but contain absolutely no assessment of the transition costs of secession? Why can’t he be honest?

              • Tamas Marcuis

                I grew up in Lithuania and never saw as much open spite directed at my people by the Soviet Government. Much of the twisted news reporting does remind me of the PRAVDA hacks. We all knew how to read the story between and behind the lines.
                In the old days this would be the preparation before a brutal clamp down on some group or republic.
                Are they prepping the English to support thuggish actions against the Scots?
                As if that has ever worked anywhere?

              • terregles2

                I quite agree with what you have posted. Many of us live and work beside English people in Scotland who have been campaigning for a YES vote. I have lots of friends and family in England and here in Scotland and I have never made any nasty comments about English people. I never would. I criticise and dislike Westminster government but would never denigrate the English people.
                Simply for expressing my support for Scottish self government I have been called a liar, hypocrite, nutcase, English hater and worse.
                There are a group who spout extreme hatred and ridicule of Scotland and the Scottish people especially if anyone does not share their opinion.

            • loftytom

              The cyber nuts know it’s all lost already which is why they’re spouting p1sh like “Quisling” to those who disagree with them.
              Ironic given the SNP’s stance in WW2

              http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may/09/highereducation.humanities.

              • Bob Waugh

                Suggest that you read the article with moire care (and perhaps with assistance). A great many older SNP members put on British uniform to fight Nazism and your smear is contemptible.

                • loftytom

                  Moire care? ROFL

                  There were damned few Essenpee types back then so don’t give me that “great many” drivel

                • Bob Waugh

                  I manage one spelling error; you show an inability to read with any care, blinded as you are by your arrogant prejudice. Motes & beams.

                • Jambo25

                  My dad served in both the army and the RN during the war. He left the RN as a CPO after service in the Atlantic, Arctic, Med and Indian Ocean against the Germans, Italians and Japanese. he was voting SNP towards the end of his life. Where did you serve?

            • Tamas Marcuis

              Not all YES supporters are Scots. Humza Yusef’s wife works for the campaign and she is English while he is of Pakistani decent. I am Lithuanian. My wife and daughter are also not Scots. There are SNP MSPs who are English, French and Pakistani. Some taking their oath in their original languages. They hold no opinions or ethnic feeling for or against the English having no particular history to bias them.
              For my part I just feel a little sad at the state of Miss Haversham like denial of decline in England. The entire country seems on the way to a big “Grey Gardens” with the Queen as the mother and Charles as Edie.
              How does your reasoning work now?

          • madasafish

            Record for most wacist post so far..

          • loftytom

            DDOS I think you mean. Keep wearing that tin foil Tam o’Shanter BTW.

          • D Whiggery

            Scotsmen were the most enthusiastic imperialists in the whole of the Union my friend. Trying to wash your hands of the bits of your history that don’t suit your narrative is in itself cowardly.

          • Fergus Pickering

            Over bearing imperilaist! iWhy are the Scots so illiterate? Imagine asking that question fifty years ago!

          • Janet

            My goodness, someone needs a hug.

        • Meg McLean

          Now really pet, who would trust a bank these days. Tsk tsk.

      • Meg McLean

        Over £70,00 now..Less than 24 hours. Does that alone not tell you how the populace of the greater part of Scotland feels?

        • Wessex Man

          yes and good luck in all your efforts, as an English Nationalist, I mean that most sincerely!

        • loftytom

          Naw. Last poll 49% piss off Eck, 34% fureedom.
          That’s you tellt.

        • Ariailla

          Well, the minority (the polls say this) know they’re the minority. And desperation is leading them to put their cash behind their cause. The rest of us just believe in democracy.

    • manonthebus

      I sometimes wonder who the pro-Independence commenters think they are trying to convince. I can’t speak for others, but I really don’t mind at all if the Scots wish to be independent and go it alone. Best of luck. However, one way or another, I doubt that things will ever be the same again, for good or ill.

      • Michael Mckeown

        Themselves.

        • asalord

          Fair comment,manonthebus.

      • Derick Tulloch

        For me, I come here for some decent debate with the Tory foe. I’m practicing for when the Scottish centre right revives, as it will, once Scotland is independent. And tweaking their ears for fun of course

        • loftytom

          Once Scotland is independent, there will be two blue moons in the sky and one in the midden.
          Don’t haud yer breath, nope actually do haud it.

      • terregles2

        I am sure that after independence Scotland and England will get on well enough as we will always be geographically and historically close. No reason for us not to be good neighbours.

      • Maidmarrion

        Thanks for the good wishes and a pretty sensible attitude to Scottish independence – perhaps you could tell the MSM to adopt the same kind of laid back attitude? And maybe start telling the truth too?!

  • Michael Mckeown

    The best thing to do with the cybernats is leave them to it as they are the gift to the union that cant help but keep giving.

  • Pootles

    Well, if he did, he’s twit. But we’ve seen plenty of unpleasant cyber-Nat postings even here, on sacred Speccie ground. The odd thing about that is that I would guess that most Speccie readers (e and paper versions) reside in Englandshire, so it doesn’t really matter what we think or say re the referendum. But that doesn’t stop the cybernattieloons. Barking.

    • Jambo25

      I’ve seen very few unpleasant cyber-Nat postings. I’ve seen a lot of bile from a few ‘usual suspects’ going in the other direction Pootles. You and I agree on most things on here but wouldn’t on this. I wouldn’t ream of being insulting towards you as you appear to be a civilised chap. However, as far as a number of the more vicious of the Britnats are concerned, all bets are off.

      • Pootles

        Yes, I’ve thought about this since posting. There have been rude types, but I wonder if I have been more affected by the fear that the longer the referendum campaigns go on, the more likely it is that there will be bad blood. It’s too much to hope, I think, that there will be an absolutely clear majority either way (and let’s hope turnout is much better than for Holyrood) , which raises the possibility of nasty recriminations post-vote. At least we’re not Ukraine/Crimea etc. Thank God.

        • Jambo25

          I can absolutely guarantee that there will be bad blood and it won’t only be nationalist inclined Scots who will start to get really rather anti-English. We have seen the kind of fairly standard ATL and BTL comments about Scotland and the Scots which has been coming, increasingly, from down south. We are well aware that most English people are OK but we also see the endless (seemingly) assertions that Scots are subsidy junkies, anti-English racists etc etc. We’ve also seen the standard allusions to Braveheart, haggis, deep fried Mars Bars etc. The other day, in the Telegraph, I was reading descriptions of us as “Sweaties”, “Porridge Wogs” etc.

          • Wessex Man

            I should have a word with those voices in your head if I were you.

        • Simon Delancey

          I sincerely hope that the turnout is good, because I can’t help imagining a majority voting “Yes”, but with a turnout of, say, 60%, so that the supposed majority is actually a mere 30% (or less) of the electorate.

        • terregles2

          There will be no bad blood we will get on with making the best of things whatever the result. I like many would be really disappointed if it is a no majority but it will be something we will accept and make the most of. I have taken part in many debates in my workplace and people have disagreed but it has not affected their friendships with colleagues. I have some friends campaigning YES some friends voting NO and a few still undecided. The result whatever way it goes will not change our attitudes towards each other.

      • allymax bruce

        Some old codgers just don’t understand artistic expression. Who are you to moralise? Get a life.

        • Jambo25

          allymax, I’m agreeing with you.

      • Wessex Man

        WELL WAKE UP THEN!

      • HJ777

        That’s because you’re one-eyed and only see what you want to see.

        • Jambo25

          And along you come to make my point.

    • allymax bruce

      Swearing is a fact of life; if done in an artful form, it is creative & informative. Some old codgers live in the past with their Calvinist diktats; moral superiority doesn’t come from not swearing. This is the 21st century; the sooner the older generation realise they are the ones out of touch with common reality today, the better it will be relating between generations.

      • Pootles

        Indeed, swearing is ‘a fact of life’, and I do swear. But, the emotional capital that is usually invested in political beliefs and argument means that swearing in debate – usually swearing at someone – risks creating and inflaming tensions to the point when democratic discourse is undermind, and the likelihood of agreement and/or the tolerance of other views is reduced.
        As for Calvin, you know, of course, that he never had much purchase here in Englandshire. How old are you, Alleymax? I’m 53, so I’ve a few more years before I join the ‘old codgers’.

        • allymax bruce

          Calvin is, as Calvin does; a rose is a rose, by any other name; your Anglo-Puritan ethic still survives. Pootles, old chap, I’m similar age to you; may-be I’m of different perspectives because I’ve studied the political arena so much, and found it completely devoid of any moral compunction. Politics today is insincere; it’s called realpolitix. As such there’s no moral imperative to political debate; emotional capital is a by-product of manoeuvre in political discourse now. It’s a new game, Pootles. enjoy.

          • Pootles

            The ‘political arena’ is, for the most part, just as you say. However, for that reasonably sized minority of the general population that takes an interest in politics, there is still, for most of them, a high degree of emotional capital involved. It is, therefore, best to attempt to conduct debates in a decent manner.
            No, I’m not an Anglo-Puritan. I’m Anglican, with High Church/BCP leanings. My wife, on the other hand, was FP, from the Islands; my late father-in-law a Minister. So I’ve a reasonable idea about Calvin.

    • Maidmarrion

      Would you like to paste a few of those “unpleasant cybernat ” responses – just a s proof???

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