Coffee House

Poll shows Yes camp are within striking distance of victory

27 January 2014

8:00 PM

27 January 2014

8:00 PM

‘It has given us a good, old-fashioned kick up the backside,’ said one member of the ‘No’ camp yesterday.

He was being charitable. It could end up being an awful lot worse than that. The ‘it’ in question was the new ICM poll which, suddenly and unexpectedly, has put the Yes campaign right back in the hunt for Scottish independence.

At a stroke, all those complacent certainties about the No camp wiping the floor with the Nationalists have been discarded and, this morning at Holyrood, the talk is of little else.

‘It is game on,’ said one Nationalist with a smile. Just to emphasise how important this new poll for The Scotsman newspapers is, here are the figures: Yes 37 per cent (up from 32 per cent in September) No 44 per cent, down from 49 per cent in September.

But – and here is where it gets really interesting – if the 19 per cent who said ‘don’t know’ are excluded, the Yes vote goes up to 46 per cent with the No vote on 54 per cent.

And there is more: when the ‘don’t knows’ were pressed further and revealed how they were ‘most likely’ to vote, the Yes vote creeps up again, to 47 per cent, with No coming down to 53 per cent.

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So here we have a proper, authoritative opinion poll, just eight months from the referendum, showing not just a marked improvement in the Yes vote but the gap between the two campaigns down to a slim six or seven per cent.

The fight now looks very different from the 60-40 or even 70-30 predictions that some people in the No camp have been making privately for the last few months.

It really is ‘game on’. This referendum battle is not over, not by a long way. Not only have the Nationalists closed the gap on the Unionists but they appear to have some momentum too.

Now, of course, this does come with the usual proviso that one poll does not a victory make. Indeed, we could be back to the more usual 65-35 split when the next few polls appear. But there is other evidence to suggest that the Nationalists are starting, just starting, to make progress.

While the attention of all of us media-political types has been focused on such weighty matters as the Scottish Government’s White Paper on Independence, on the utterances of Alex Salmond and the continuing tangles over Europe and Nato, at a grassroots level, the Nationalists have gone about things very differently. Convinced that the media is biased against them, they have ignored the public prints and gone out directly to the people.

Hardly a day goes by now when there isn’t a public meeting somewhere in Scotland organised by the Yes camp – there are actually likely to several, even dozens, on most days.

At each meeting, senior nationalists try the softly, softly approach, listening then putting their arguments across in as reasonable way as possible and it seems to be working – albeit slowly.

That is because the battle for Scotland’s future will not be won by the support of the committed voters of either side, it will be won by whoever manages to attract those 19 per cent of waverers in the middle.

It had long been assumed that the No camp would take most of these simply because the threat to the status quo would simply appear too big a step for most undecided voters.

And while this is only one poll, it is does reflect the first, faint tracings of a feeling that that assumption may not be quite as solid as it once appeared.

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Show comments
  • Rillian

    You idiots on here arguing with each other, Its our politicians who have not properly represented either the Scottish or the English. They’re the throats you should be going for, not each others.

    So easily divided and conquered, its pathetic.

    • Eric McLean

      That might be partially true if the South East and London were unhappy with their lot.

  • General_Patten

    Come on the YES camp you can do it. England supports you all the way!

  • Fraz Glencross

    I still think the no vote will win . Interesting though that so many yes campaigners have been dismissing other polls yet are keen to accept this one as valid. Hypocrisy of the highest order. Lets wait and see if its confirmed by the next poll. Lets hope not. God help us if yes wins.

  • http://wrinkledweasel-resurgam.blogspot.co.uk/ wrinkledweasel

    “Convinced that the media is biased against them” – that would be you, then.

    Not to mention The Scotsman, The BBC, etc.

    You need force feeding with deep fried onion pizzas, boy.

  • Eric McLean

    “Convinced that the media is biased against them, they have ignored the public prints and gone out directly to the people.

    Of course the media is biased, including the BBC.

    http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/8598-broadcasters-favouring-no-campaign-according-to-new-academic-study

    • Michael Mckeown

      You really did just link the SNP’s news site as a source of non bias material, absolute classic well done.

      • Eric McLean

        Actually, the study by the University is available if you prefer. Just a bit harder to decipher for the average quick reader.

        And since when did NNS get taken over by the SNP? Please tell.

        Let me know if you want a link to the actual study.

      • Eric McLean

        Classic? I think not. See below. 🙂

      • Suriani

        Better we stick with the unbiased pro-unionist media for the truth?
        There is a visceral black propaganda war being fought over this issue but despite the heavy weight of the “fear-factor” Unionist media the No vote is steadily softening. This latest pole simply confirms what people in the Scottish street are starting to think.

        • Michael Mckeown

          The latest poll was no different to others as the weighting altered so adjusting for that its the same old story.

          • Suriani

            Which is another way of saying this is a poll whose findings I choose not to like. Better get used to it. The British government is apparently using its embassies to disseminate anti-independence propaganda. Nothing fair in this war.

            • Michael Mckeown

              Get used to what the polls consistently and holistically showing the separatists have no chance?

              • Suriani

                Dissolving an obsolescent union isn’t separatism just practical common-sense allied to a desire to join the real world without a “chaperone” and become a popular, not self-selecting parliamentary monarchical, democracy. Even if there were a no, things will never be the same.The taste of freedom is sweet.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Ohh dear, well why is it you separatists are clinging on for dear life to the UK’s £ and the UK’s central bank and the UK’s common travel area and the UK’s military procurement?

                  The ‘taste of freedom’ seems to be a UK comfort blanket so why dont you grow a pair and seek actual independence?

                • Suriani

                  That is SNP policy, for the moment. Not a few disagree with clinging to nurse and would much prefer either a new currency or joining the eurozone. If we wanted a real comfort blanket a possibly revanchist England, with a Ukip political substrate, ,would not be first choice. The independence campaign is far bigger than the SNP, only the media choose to see it in that narrow perspective.

              • HandandShrimp

                Holistically? What are the polls now, crystal healing?

  • Owen Harmon

    Brilliant, and with the whining jocks cut loose, we can send the Welsh and the Irish packing as well. Without England to bank-roll their welfare policies and without English businesses and central government contracts being spoon-fed to them, Scotland can look forward to being fully independent, like Slovakia. Then they can get their begging bowl out and go to Brussels, where the Spanish will veto their accesstion to send a clear message to the Catalans.

    • Eric McLean

      As George Galloway would say “What a load of GUFF”
      Not even worth a decent reply.

    • Eric McLean

      I just looked at your profile – EDL and BNP?! When is the next march. Will you be wearing yon funny hat?

      • Owen Harmon

        I’ve never been a remember or affiliate to either of those groups. I’ll dust ff the silly hat for the World Cup.

        • Eric McLean

          Wow, but you speak both their languages? Bigotry and hate.

          • Owen Harmon

            You want independence for Scotland and think of yourself as being fair and democratic. I want independence for England and I’m a hateful bigot. That’s really progressive of you.

            • Eric McLean

              “….whining jocks cut loose…”

              You set the standard Owen. You want Queensbury rules… play by them!

            • Eric McLean

              And I will support English Independence. It’s correct and fair. But you show your ignorance by talking about Scotland as the being subsidised… We are not.

              • Owen Harmon

                Yeah you are. When you break away and lose things like BAe Systems, all that will be left is a huge public sector. Salmond’s numbers just don’t add up and when you factor in the Barnett formula being switched off, Scotland’s finances are going to be in a mess. Slovakia is a direct parallel, so have a look at the state they’re in when you cast your vote. The Scots want to be free of the shackles of Westminster but don’t want to be free from England’s cheque book.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Never, ever, do they factor in UK public sector jobs leaving or UK supported industry’s leaving as apparently for reasons unknown the UK will still use Scotland to build warships and collect taxes.

                • Jambo25

                  I presume that you are the Michael Mckeown, West Midlands who has been a constant correspondent to the Herald. If you are I would worry about your own neck of the woods before getting too worked up over the future of us Scots.
                  My bro-in-law used to have a very lucrative job working in the Stoke area but packed it in as he could see no useful task he was fulfilling as, in his view, there really was no local economy or hope left in the Stoke area. Virtually everything had gone. In addition some figures I came across, yesterday: possibly in this magazine, show that Edinburgh has, over the past year or so, create or attracted more private sector employment than Birmingham which has twice Edinburgh’s population. Aberdeen has, proportionately, been doing even better. Even Glasgow has better GVA figures than most comparable English cities. Perhaps it’s about time that you turned your mind and attention to something other than we Scots.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  You’ll forgive me for not taking advice from a Jambo.

                • Jambo25

                  Pity. It’s good advice but I suppose you’re a Tim or a Hun.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Did you ever stop to think that your brother in law is talking crap? I mean who gives up a ‘lucrative’ job because they ‘see no useful task to be fulfilled’? Did it also not occur to you that he had a lucrative job then left so clearly there are lucrative jobs to be had?

                • Jambo25

                  As it was he took a form of early retirement. He now makes about as much money doing private consultancy work. His point is still undeniable, however. Stoke is an economic disaster area. The wider West Midlands has gone from a powerhouse of the UK economy, in the 60s, to an economic basket case now. I note, that like many of the English contributors on this site you do not engage with the substantive arguments but merely lapse into insults when the going gets a wee bit too much for you.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  His point is he personally did not find his particular job satisfying that is not to say each and every job in Stoke is not satisfying.

                  The West Midlands is at the center of the UK’s car manufacturing industry so to say its a disaster area is untrue and knowing Stoke and having been employed in the regeneration of the area I know that your brother in law might not have been wrong but he is now so keep up with the times as nothing stays the same.

                • Jambo25

                  OK What is the biggest employer in Stoke? Mining, iron and steel, potteries. Last time I heard it was something like Betfair , Wonga or such like. How are Wolverhampton, Dudley, Walsall, Newcastle under Lyne etc doing nowadays?

                • Michael Mckeown

                  There are in excess of 2,075 companies from 38 different countries located in the region, together with approximately 180,000 local companies. Some of the largest and well known of these include Corus, Lucas Industries, The National Grid, Peugeot, E.ON UK (Powergen), MG Rover Group (now owned by the Nanjing Automobile Group), Royal Doulton and Wedgwood……………..

                  That was from a few seconds of google, surely you know what a search engine is for?

                • Jambo25

                  And what are the GVA, average income and unemployment figures? A fair number of the firms you name are shells of their former selves or are on their way out.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Look Jambo Scotland is but one of the UK’s economic regions so there really is little point in attempting to put down England’s regions as just one like the West Midlands is on par with Scotland and that leaves lots and lots more.

                • Jambo25

                  I’m not trying to put anyone down; just pointing out inconvenient facts that once powerful economic regions are now economic basket cases in grave danger of falling even further behind the more successful UK regions. Scotland is doing reasonably well at present. Wales, much of the West Midlands and North of England are doing rather badly.
                  The problem for these struggling regions is not Scotland or Salmond or the SNP but an overmighty London which is sucking the life out of much of England. You should worry about the growing and apparently insurmountable gap between London and much of the rest of England and rather less what we’re doing up here.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  What a hypocritical statement, how can you not be putting England down when calling its regions ‘basket cases’? Prove the region is a basket case and prove London is ‘sucking life out of much of England’ as until you do you just look like a nasty little separatist who clearly has never been to the places he talks of and only dislikes the areas concerned because his brother in law was early retired (code for sacked as he was no liked).

                • Jambo25

                  1) Try and work out how many English regions are actually economically improving within the present government’s ‘re-balancing’ agenda. How many are seeing real increases in industrial production? Compare the spread of GVA figures between the less favoured areas/regions such as the aforementioned Stoke and the more prosperous ones such as London, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Cambridge etc.
                  2) On London; look at the latest pronouncements by the IPPR on London’s effect on the wider UK and particularly English economy. Look at Professor Tony Travers’ recent description of London as a black hole sucking money and other resources out of the English regions. Neither are ‘nasty little separatists’. Tony Travers is a Londoner and professor at LSE. Finally, run the rule over the latest analysis of job figures which show the vast majority of new private sector jobs, in England, going to London and environs. Get your head round the fact that public sector employment has actually increase in London, over the past few years, while being ruthlessly pruned back in the North and Midlands.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  I’m not seeking to prove your jaded position I’m asking you to prove it yourself so do tell everyone just how some of England’s regions are ‘basket cases’ and how ‘London sucks life out of much of England’, regarding the latter it would be interesting what unequivocal evidence you have to show that London takes things that were intended for other places, I await with interest your substantive reply but do remember London returns a multi billion surplice.

                • Jambo25

                  I refer you back to my previous posting. How are previously powerful economic areas doing in terms of industrial production; percentage of economically active population; comparative GVA figures etc.? As for London. Go and look at the reports and statements from the IPPR, Professor Travers and others. They have a level of expertise rather in advance of yours I expect. If that isn’t enough for you start doing comparisons on per capita levels of infrastructure spending between London and other areas of England. You might wish to go back a few weeks to read an interesting article by this Magazine’s Alex Massie on this very topic.
                  You may wish to review how many of the UK’s major cultural institutions are based in London. How many are based outside London? How much is the per capita spend, on culture. in London and Birmingham for example? How many senior civil servants and equivalently paid government workers are based in London? How many elsewhere? How many quangos and government research units are based in the London/South East are? How many elsewhere?

                • Owen Harmon

                  De-industrialization has been pretty tough on Stoke, no doubt about that but JCB, phones4u and betfair do employ a large number of people. NPower recently made a lot of people redundant which won’t help the local economy much. The public sector is the biggest employer, the Hospitals, schools and local government offices. This is what the Scots should keep in mind if they keep voting for socialists. You could put a red cloak on a donkey in Stoke and they’d vote for it and then they wonder why the city is such a mess.

                • Owen Harmon

                  BAe Surface Ships was moved from Plymouth to the clyde as a not-so-subtle reminder to the Scots of what they will lose if they vote Yes. It is inconceivable that the Ministry of Defence would out-source military hardware to a foreign nation. On the plus side, if they do go it alone and close the submarine pens, that’s even more jobs and skills coming back to England.

                • Eric McLean

                  So why should you worry? You sound a little bitter.

                  You should concentrate on your own political and economic survival against Westminster thats sucking your blood.

                  Many well educated resents of Scotland have done the sums and concluded that Scotland can easily be independent.

                  In fact Cameron, Darling and Osborne have all agreed that “Scotland is viable”

                  All my family are in England. They get fed all the Westminster propaganda about the Scots as well. Up here? Well we go online and get our own information.

                • Owen Harmon

                  Well good luck and good riddance to you then.

            • Jambo25

              I think it’s the difference in tone between you and Mr. McLean.

              • Owen Harmon

                Mr. McLean has attacked me (or what his limited perception of me is) and failed to rebut or respond to any of the issues I have raised. He is typical of the Yes Campaign in that all they have is pathetic attacks against England and their battle cry of North Sea Oil, which wouldn’t even cover the cost of free prescriptions for a year. Please, vote Yes. You should be independent.

                • Jambo25

                  No, he simply isn’t as unpleasant as you in print.

                • Owen Harmon

                  I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware that stating plain facts would hurt your feelings.

                • Jambo25

                  Don’t kid yourself. Your existence or non existence means nothing to me. Just pointing out that you come across as unpleasant.

                • Owen Harmon

                  Well Jambo, you’re a real charmer yourself. Passive-aggression aside, got anything useful, insightful or interesting to contribute to this non-debate?

                • Jambo25

                  Never believed in passive-aggression. Straightforward aggression is what I believe in when it’s called for.

                • Owen Harmon

                  You’re very scary. I always feel a little creeped out around retards.

                • Jambo25

                  Ah! so now you revert to outright abuse. Well done.

                • Owen Harmon

                  Since you seemed unable to distinguish between passive and straightforward aggression, I thought I’d simply show you. No need to thank me, helping educate cave-dwelling Scots is something we’ve been doing for a millennium.

  • rod mac

    There is some appalling anti- Scottish posts on here.
    A vile “Little Britisher/English” jingoism that pollutes threads like this.
    To help educate the ignorant on here.
    Scottish Self determination is not fuelled by any kind of dislike of our wonderful English neighbours and friends.
    It is a loathing and disgust at the neo-liberal ,undemocratic ,corrupt patronage soaked Westminster whore of Parliaments.
    It is a reaction to the worst form of so called democracy in the developed world.
    It is a reaction against UK being the 4th most unequal country in said developed world.
    It is about the attack on the poor ,the sick ,the disabled ,the unemployed ,immigrants and the less fortunate in our society..
    It is a revulsion of the 800+ unelected Lords, bedroom tax ,, WMD ,illegal and foreign wars, an unfair voting system where only 800,000 out of 62 million people can in effect change the Westminster Government.
    If we YESSERs have a dislike ,disdain and loathing it is for the “Scots”that enrich themselves slurping in the Westminster trough while demeaning and betraying their own country of birth and their fellow countrymen and women

    • Colonel Mustard

      What and you can’t see the appalling anti-English bile in many of the comments too?

      • rod mac

        You sir ,are on the worst culprits of the vile anti Scottishness I was referring.to.

        • Colonel Mustard

          Really? Reading this thread I doubt that.

      • Eric McLean

        Where? Give us a few examples…

        • Colonel Mustard

          Try reading through this thread with the blinkers off.

          • Eric McLean

            Thats it? Really?

            You make me laugh.

            • Colonel Mustard

              No. It was one example. You asked where? I showed you. There are plenty more you can read perfectly well for yourself.

              Or maybe you think that comment is not “anti-English bile”? If so please proceed with your argument why it should not fit that category.

          • DougDaniel

            That’s not anti-English bile, that’s something called “a joke.”

            But I forgive you for not getting the joke. You *are* English, after all.

            • DougDaniel

              (And that was another joke…)

          • HandandShrimp

            No the original post implied that all the undesirables were on our side of the border. Daniel merely turned it around in a light hearted way. So in your book it is OK to say something like that if applied to Scots but racism if it turned around? Seems a tad unfair to me.

            • HandandShrimp

              PS I was not offended by the original post. I have seen far worse directed our and no doubt will again.

  • Gergiev

    Hurrah. No more “West Lothian” problems and far fewer Labour “rotten boroughs”. Scottish independence makes sense, and not just for Scottish voters.

    • hoddles

      You’ll still have West Glamorgan and West Belfast problems until you English get off your backside and do something about a lack of an English parliament. Typical English attitude to rely on Scots to solve the English West Lothian problem. They whinge and whine constantly but do nothing about it.

      • Gergiev

        Yes, you are right, the English have always relied on the Scots to sort out their problems for them.

    • CharlietheChump

      An Englishman totally agrees, all the best.

  • john

    I love the idea of the Scots going independent. Hopefully such “Commonwealth” countries as Canada, Australia and NZ will also go it alone. Maybe the punters in England will also realise how they are kept in servitude by the power base in W1.
    We need to move aggressively toward real democracy – end the royal nonesense, end titles, end the House of Lords. Today’s news of the royal spendthrifts only underscores the real problems to be addressed.

  • Vagabonda

    Could always bombard them with shortbread and small models of bears playing bagpipes.

    • CameronB

      I’m still trying to perfect deep-fried porridge. That will put the wind up them.

      • scotcanadien

        You’d be better trying to perfect ‘deep fried cheesy chip butties’, an English delicacy, which is now being subjected to criticism that there’s not enough fat in them.

      • Eric McLean

        That will put the WINGS up them you mean

  • Vagabonda

    Followed by war against Orkney/Shetland, the Scandies who own 65% of the N Sea oil. Salmon will need an aircraft carrier for that. Oh, hold on . . .

    • DougDaniel

      Salmon will need an aircraft carrier? Why would fish need an aircraft carrier?

      Oh I see, you can’t spell “Samond”. Sorry.

  • The Laughing Cavalier

    No matter what the outcome we, the English, shall still end up paying for the Celts.

    • scotcanadien

      “No matter what the outcome we, the English, shall still end up paying for the Celts.”

      That’s a joke the English cheapskates never pay for ANYTHING. They always try to freeload.

    • hoddles

      Scotland pays 9.9% of all UK taxes and gets back 9.3% of spending and another clueless English poster thinks that means they are subsidising Scotland. If you didn’t laugh, you’d cry.

      • Michael Mckeown

        9.3% of spending is a higher sum than 9.9% of UK taxes.

        • hoddles

          And rUK deficit per capita is considerably greater than Scotland’s. Please explain how, therefore, Scotland is subsidised by rUK

          • Michael Mckeown

            You implied that 9.9% of UK taxes is less than 9.3% of spending while calling someone ‘clueless’, I simply pointed out that in this instance you are clueless.

            • hoddles

              I implied no such thing. I asked how Scotland could be subsidised if it contributed 9.9% of all taxes and received 9.3% of all spending. Perhaps you can explain.

              • Michael Mckeown

                I already did, 9.3% of spending is greater than 9.9% of taxes.

                • hoddles

                  So who is subsidising Scotland if rUK has a far greater per capita deficit than Scotland (not to mention contributing 90.1% of UK taxes but getting back 90.7% of all spending)?

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Your confusing percentages here, there is a deficit so spending and taxes are not the same amount so cant be linked in percentage comparisons.

                • hoddles

                  I’m not confusing percentages at all. Scotland is in deficit. rUK is in even greater deficit per capita. I’ll ask you again. Who is subsidising Scotland?

                • Michael Mckeown

                  You are confusing percentages, your opening post was “Scotland pays 9.9% of all UK taxes and gets back 9.3% of spending” when spending and taxes are not the same total so cant be used in the way you seek to use them.

                  Scotlands revenue: £47.2 billion
                  Scotland’s expenditure: £64.5 billion

                  Source:

                  http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/03/1859

                • hoddles

                  Scotland revenue £56.9 billion with its geog share of oil. spending £64.5 billion. Deficit £7.6 billion, 5.0% GDP. UK with 100% of NS oil Deficit £121 billion, 7.9% of GDP
                  http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/03/1859

                  Who is subsidising Scotland?

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Scotland pays £47.2 billion of all UK taxes and gets back £64.5 billion of spending.

                  Not got the same ring to it without the percentages does it.

                • hoddles

                  Scotland pays £56.9 billion.

                  Who is subsidising Scotland?

                • hoddles

                  Scotland been in deficit since world financial collapse, like most countries.. rUK in even bigger deficit. Pre-financial collapse, Scotland largely in surplus and rUK largely in deficit. £64 billion handed over by Scotland to service rUK debt in last 32 years. Scotland in net surplus.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Scotland has been in deficit a lot longerthan that with perhaps only two surplus years in the last 30.

                  Scotland pays £47.2 billion of all UK taxes and gets back £64.5 billion of spending.

                • hoddles

                  So you think that revenues from NS oil in Scottish waters should not be
                  included in Scottish tax revenues. Why is that and whose revenues should
                  they be shown as?

                  Educate yourself: http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/you-paid-64-billion-of-interest-on-deb-that-scotland-didnt-need/

                • Michael Mckeown

                  GERS shows geographic oil figures, go educate yourself:

                  http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/03/1859

                • hoddles

                  Do you have problems reading? From your own source: “When an illustrative geographical share of North Sea revenue is
                  included, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at £56.9
                  billion (9.9% of UK total public sector revenue)”.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  But regardless the expenditure is still £64.5 billion meaning your percentage point was not one and you calling someone else ‘clueless’ was unjustified.

                • hoddles

                  Dearie me. Scotland contributes 9.9% of all taxes and gets back 9.3% of all spending. My question for the original poster and for you is how, therefore, is Scotland subsidised, and by whom.

                  As I’ve already said, I never get an answer from those who previously claimed Scotland is subsidised by the UK.

                  It is a nonsense repeated by the clueless. Those who are informed by their prejudices and/or by the Daily Mail.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  You seriously are clueless, because spending is higher than revenue then Scotland is being subsidies by the combined UK borrowing.

                • hoddles

                  It is in defici but it is subsidised by no one. I presume you think the UK is subsidised by the UK then.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Yes the UK is subsidies by the UK, who else would be doing it?

                • hoddles

                  LOL!

                • Eric McLean

                  Michael, your figures are disingenuous. If you want to state the numbers you are referring to and the source then Hoddles can debate with you properly

        • Eric McLean

          And Scotland pays billions interest on debt that they shouldn’t have.

          • Michael Mckeown

            Really? The borrowing runs the country so should the pensions not be paid?

  • Vote YES in Sept ’14

    I bet you lot down there would fight like in that scene in Four Weddings and a Funeral, get a grip.

  • TowerOfBabble

    I have yet to work out why the rest of us in the UK don’t get to vote on whether Scotland should leave the union.

    • CameronB

      England’s population is roughly ten times that of Scotland’s. This demographic reality has meant that Scottish votes have only affected the outcome of three UK general elections since WWII, Scotland’s votes might as well not be counted at general elections. Despite this, we are expected to contribute more to the UK Treasury than we get back in public expenditure.

      If the rest of the UK get to vote on Scotland’s future, the same demographic factors will come in to play. Scotland could vote 99% for independence, yet affect no change as the rest of he UK votes No.

      Colonialism is just so 19th century!

    • MatthewVic

      That would be like a referendum being held on whether the UK should leave the EU, but every voting age adult in every EU country having a vote in it as well. . .

      Have you worked out why that may be the case now?

      • TowerOfBabble

        Er, no. We do not share a political and financial interdependence with the EU so that is not a fair comparison.

        • MatthewVic

          Keep telling yourself that so you can continue with your politically silly statements 😉

    • Eric McLean

      Two people are married.
      One votes to leave.
      The other can have an opinion.
      But doesn’t have a vote
      Simple.

      What is difficult about understanding that?

  • hoddles

    Bile-filled posts from the English. What a disgusting lot they are.

    • David Kay

      another racist bigoted post from a racist bigoted scot

    • scotcanadien

      According to the Daily Heil they must be Cybernats. Although WE know they are BritNatz.

      • hoddles

        If Daily Wail wants to find Engnatz it need only look at disgusting English readers’ anti-Scottish comments on its very own pages.

  • Stewart Glendinning

    You’re mistaken if you think each and everyone of these these local grassroots meetings are being addressed by “senior nationalists”. They are being addressed by local activists, real people, often with no previous political engagement or party allegiance who have found a voice and belief in the case for Yes and the case for change. That is where the debate is being won with facts and passion. In South Ayrshire alone through February and April we have over 15 local meetings as we take our message to the villages such as Coylton, Annbank, Symington, Mossblown, Tarbolton and beyond. On the ground, taking the conversation to the people that is where the Yes campaign is gaining ground.

    • A. C. Inic

      The Blessed Nicola and Saint Alec along with their acolytes are reminiscent of the snake oil salesman who used to tour the Mid West selling potions which they claimed would cure every ill to the gullible and delusional and inevitably turned out to be placebos at best but usually had the effect of making the recipitent sicker but often had fatal results to the buyer, much like the nonsense spouted by the YES campaign. Forget Nationalism as a cure for the supposed ills that afflict the country and look at matters in a global context. A little pretendy parliament filled with pretendy politicians certainly is not the answer

      • terregles2

        Wonderful that the wee pretendy politicians in the wee pretendy parliament will be able to throw big real Trident out of Scotland. The wee pretendy parliament will be able to ensure that Scotland will never again be involved in big real wars like Iraq. When the wee pretendy parliament also throws out Trident it will be able to get on with the big real oil exploration in the Firth of Clyde.

      • HenBroon

        Ahh yes the name calling the sneering the negative rhetoric of the bully. Bullies are by their very nature very insecure frightened people. You have just demonstrated that perfectly. Scotlands independence is inevitable, it is time.

  • asalord

    British nationalists continue to squeal in desperation.

  • disqus_EjgKZ1VUFS

    I wouldn’t call it an authoritative poll,its interesting but nothing more. The poll was done for a right wing unionist newspaper,it was carried out by ICM so will very likely be weighted.
    And while the Mail wrings it hands about cybernats one look at some of the comments on here should clarify just who the real nasty side is.

    • asalord

      Well said disqus_EjgKZ1VUFS.

      The hypocrisy of British nationalists and British nationalist organizations like the Daily Mail are clear for all to see,except by British nationalists themselves.

      • Wessex Man

        I wish you had an education and realised that British is not English!

        • DougDaniel

          He’s not referring to English people exclusively. There are many British nationalists in Scotland – often seen waving Union flags and screaming “we arra peepul!!!” at Ibrox on a Saturday afternoon.

          Very revealing assumption, though.

          • Keir

            There are idiots in every football club’s set of supporters. You may also be surprised to learn that many Rangers fans (myself included) are Yes voters.

            • DougDaniel

              Nah, I’ve seen Rangers fans commenting on WOS that they’ll be voting Yes, just as there are (inexplicably) Aberdeen fans who’ll vote No. But it’s a nice, easy way to demonstrate the point to Wessex Man that “British nationalist” certainly doesn’t mean “English person”, since you don’t see many Union flags being waved at Pittodrie, Tannadice etc!

              • Paul Wilson

                There used to be a lot at Tynecastle but thankfully not any more.

            • terregles2

              You are right most football fans are decent but every club has a share of idiots. I have noticed that there are a number of football clubs on facebook supporting independence. Rangers included.

          • Paul Wilson

            Yes Doug and thankfully they are an ever diminishing minority.There are many Rangers supporters who endorse the yes message in fact it was Govan that gave the SNP their second ever MP in Margo.

        • hoddles

          “the island of England” English Tory MP on Daily Politics show today.

          • terregles2

            Unfortunately it is not confined to Tory politicians. I criticised the Westminster government on this forum and the response I got was a torrent of abuse accusing me of anti English bigotry.
            I asked them how criticising Westminster the government of every UK country could be anti English. I was then called a sanctimonious anti English hypocrite.
            I’m still trying to work that one out.

        • Paul Wilson

          It is the media and the fools at Westminster who think that Britain is England.

        • HenBroon

          “Andy Murray will win the Davis cup for England.” Screeched the Express and John inverdale.

  • Angus McIonnach

    The comments – usually full of hateful anti-Scottish bigotry – seem even more violently hateful than usual.

    Goodness knows what the comments will look like when polls put Yes ahead of No…

    • David Kay

      you cant see the anti english bigotry because of your anti english racism and its party time if the yes vote wins. But it aint happening and it makes me feel gutted, i’ll sob more tears than you when you vote to stay in the UK

      • Angus McIonnach

        “your anti english bigotry” – citation needed.

        • David Kay

          just take a look at the posts on this site from bigoted racist ungrateful scots

          • Angus McIonnach

            Oh you mean “you” as in other people that aren’t me. Cool.

            • David Kay

              no i mean ignorant scottish racist bigots like you

              • Angus McIonnach

                Where’s your evidence that I’m ignorant or racist? (I am Scottish – well spotted). Or maybe ignorance and racism follows automatically from my being Scottish.

          • Jambo25

            Supply examples anywhere even close to the unpleasant bile you are spewing.

          • Jambo25

            Supply evidence please.

          • Jambo25

            Evidence please.

          • scotcanadien

            Why are they “ungrateful”? You lot have been living off Scottish Oil for the last 40 years without the grace to say thank you.

            • Nicholas chuzzlewit

              We have been paying for RBS as well.

              • Eric McLean

                Not that old Chestnut. You really are a cad.
                Old chap. Old fellow.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  “Old chestnut” being something inconvenient to cybernats.

                • Eric McLean

                  Nick, you really are such a jolly fellow. I do love your spiffing japes. Makes me tingle all over. Wot.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  You simply do not have the erudition and deftness to marry wit, sanctimony and sarcasm in the same sentence. But you do serve a purpose albeit a rather sad one. You make me realise how lucky I am to be educated, privileged and living in England.

                • Eric McLean

                  Yes, ‘proud to be privileged’ says it all really

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  “Proud to be privileged” your alliterative rubbish not mine.

                • Eric McLean

                  Technically, perhaps.

                  But you win the motto by implication.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  You sad, sad little nobody.

                • Paul Wilson

                  Will you be saying that when you are living in a country that is bust?

              • Paul Wilson

                The money in the main came from the Americans and not England went to bale out the English side of the banks do some research before writing nonsense

              • A. C. Inic

                Dont forget it was a Scotsman who was in charge of RBS whose economics were on a par with the SNP

                • HenBroon

                  Ah yes the Scot who was called Sir and advised the English born failed Chancellor Darling on financial matters. It was also a Scot who set up the UKs Bank called the Bank of England. The same one who set up the Darien scheme. It was also a Scot who invented the steam engine, penicillin, tarmacadam, the rain coat, the bicycle, the pneumatic tyre, TV, logarythms,

                  The average Englishman, in the home he calls his castle, slips into his national costume, a shabby raincoat, patented by chemist Charles Macintosh from Glasgow, Scotland. En route to his office he strides along the English lane, surfaced by John Macadam of Ayr, Scotland.

                  He drives a car fitted with tyres invented by John Boyd Dunlop of Dreghorn, Scotland, arrives at the station and boards a train, the forerunner of which was a steam engine, invented by James Watt of Greenock, Scotland. He then pours himself a cup of coffee from a thermos flask, the latter invented by Dewar, a Scotsman from Kincardine-on-Forth.

                  At the office he receives the mail bearing adhesive stamps invented by James Chalmers of Dundee, Scotland.

                  During the day he uses the telephone invented by Alexander Graham Bell, born in Edinburgh, Scotland.

                  At home in the evening his daughter pedals her bicycle invented by Kirkpatrick Macmillan, blacksmith of Dumfries, Scotland.

                  He watches the news on his television, an invention of John Logie Baird of Helensburgh, Scotland, and hears an item about the U.S. Navy, founded by John Paul Jones of Kirkbean, Scotland.

                  He has by now been reminded too much of Scotland and in desperation he picks up the Bible only to find that the first man mentioned in the good book is a Scot, King James VI, who authorised its translation.

                  Nowhere can an Englishman turn to escape the ingenuity of the Scots.

                  He could take to drink, but the Scots make the best in the world.

                  He could take a rifle and end it all but the breech-loading rifle was invented by Captain Patrick of Pitfours, Scotland.

                  If he escapes death, he might then find himself on an operating table injected with penicillin, which was discovered by Alexander Fleming of Darvel, Scotland, and given an anaesthetic, which was discovered by Sir James Young Simpson of Bathgate, Scotland.

                  Out of the anaesthetic, he would find no comfort in learning he was as safe as the Bank of England founded by William Paterson of Dumfries, Scotland.

                  Perhaps his only remaining hope would be to get a transfusion of guid Scottish blood which would entitle him to ask “Wha’s Like Us”.

                  Jeez no wonder the English are so bitter and twisted.

            • revroy

              do you mean shetlands oil!!?

              • Paul Wilson

                Shetland is part of Scotland there is no demand for autonomy but if there is then Scotland would grant them it.

            • Nicholas chuzzlewit

              You are assuming that their has been absolutely no positive economic production in England, Wales and Northern Ireland for Forty years? Just because you have 25 ticks from a bunch of barking ‘cybernats’ does not make your ridiculous statement worth considering not least because oil has not been making a positive contribution for 40 years.

              • Paul Wilson

                Does your eloquent English help you to understand this stop talking pish.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  Take it up with Mr Carney. He pointed out yesterday that Scotland’s banking sector was 12.5 times the size of its economy with the commensurate number being 4.3 for England. He was also the chap that said you would have to cede sovereignty on fiscal and monetary policy to join a Sterling ‘area’. Assuming of course that you are allowed to. The man at the Treasury suggested that that would not be the case. Write to Mr Carney, Bank of England, London.

          • Paul Wilson

            I have read all the comments thus far and the only nasty ones are yours.

      • anncalba

        By chance, I was born in Glasgow, my parents English. My husband, from generations of Scots, was born in Carlisle, his parents from Glagow. So I am genetically English, but have a Scottish birth certificate; My husband is genetically Scottish, with an English birth certifcate. We now live in Scotland, though I (the ” Scot” by birth) spent 40 years of my life in London. How to vote! Well, we know how. Most Scottish politicians are incapable of running a parish coouncil, let alone a country.

        • Jeanne Tomlin

          Which Scottish politicians would that be? Michael Moore? Alistair Carmichael? That’s the lot that you trust to run Scotland is it? You have my sympathy.

          • anncalba

            Jeanne? I don’t trust any politicians, from which ever party or country, to run anything, do you? Michael Moore, Wee Eck, Nick Clegg, Barak Obama, and so on for ever – would not let any of them over my doorstep. So what’s your question again?

            • terregles2

              Think many of us have a low opinion of politicians but because you may not trust the politicians in Holyrood does not mean you have to stay with a worse lot in Westminster.
              After independende it will be easier to keep an eye on Holyrood politicians and throw them out if they let us down.
              Whether we like it or not we need to have some form of government therefore I would rather have one that the majority in Scotland vote for rather than one the majority in the rest of UK votes for.

        • Paul Wilson

          Of course Westminster and it’s many English politicians have done a grand job thus far £1.5 trillion debt super.

      • Paul Wilson

        Stop reading the biased mainstream press and go to sites like Wings Over Scotland, Bellacaledonia or newsnet Scotland and get the real picture of what Scots think.You might also learn something.

      • terregles2

        Vast majority of YES voters have only goodwill towards English people. You constantly saying otherwise will not change that fact.
        English people we like, Wesminster government we do not like.

    • Wessex Man

      oh do come it do you read these comments with one eye shut, we English have no nore control over halfwits than you Scots have control over the comments of Asalord and Jambo25!

      • Jambo25

        Once again; examples of my anti-English racism please.

        • Wessex Man

          anywhere you like on any comments you have posted over the years.

          • Jambo25

            So no examples?

      • Angus McIonnach

        “we English have no more control over halfwits”

        See that keyboard in front of you? If you dont press the keys, letters don’t appear on the screen. HTH

    • DougDaniel

      Kind of reminds you of a violent husband who’s suddenly realised he’s lost the control he once had over his wife, shouting “you’re nothing without me! Nothing! You can’t survive without me! You’ll never leave me, you don’t have the guts!”

      Come September, I suspect comments sections will turn into begging. “Don’t leave us! We can change! Give us one more chance!”

    • anncalba

      And there is no anti-English bigotry? Much of Wee Eck’s campaign has been based on bashing the English, and apart from that making totally unrealistic promises. But dare tell a Nat that you have some reservations, and you will get a mouthful of infantile abuse. So, placate them until the privacy of the ballot box.

      • HenBroon

        ” Much of Wee Eck’s campaign has been based on bashing the English,”

        Citation please?

  • Rockin Ron

    No will win by a sizeable margin. Why? Scots dare not turn off the lucrative money tap that is sucking Government cash into Scotland. Examples: Scots have free prescriptions and no student fees. How is this funded? By the UK taxpayer. So, the Scots won’t vote to end this healthy situation for them. Never mind the history, the emotions and the drama – in the end it comes down to turkeys not voting for Christmas.

    • Angus McIonnach

      Per head, Scots have contributed more to the treasury for every year of the last three decades. We more than pay for expenditure in Scotland.

      Try again old boy.

      • Rockin Ron

        Yes but free prescriptions and no student fees are visible evidence of the different experience between Scotland and the rest of the country. So, you may well be right (or not as there are different ways of presenting these figures), but what matters is perception and that perception is that Scots do well out of the Union. That will lead to a sizeable No vote.

        • Angus McIonnach

          “what matters is perception”

          Indeed. If the Yes campaign can get Scots to perceive reality rather than the insulting myths they’ve been fed, they a Yes vote is likely.

          • Rockin Ron

            Over to you then, ball is in your court to make the positive case for a Yes vote. Good luck with that.

            • Angus McIonnach

              This is already being done.

              • Rockin Ron

                Well roll on September 2014 then. Of course, if the rest of the UK had a vote it would be a massive win for the Yes camp.
                As it is, I think we are stuck with a messy situation of Scotland voting No and the rest of the UK eager to ditch Scotland. A lose lose if you will.

                • Angus McIonnach

                  “if the rest of UK had a vote bla bla bla”

                  That tired assertion isn’t backed up by actual surveys, but then you typed it so, no surprises there.

                  What I would recommend is, try and get yourself into the ‘phone a Scot’ program that Better Together are setting up, and then adopt this tone when speaking to Scots.

                • Rockin Ron

                  Calm down Angus. You are beginning to sound heated. Thanks for the ‘Phone a Jock’ tip. Sounds like a desperate stunt from the Yes camp.

                  As I said, I think we will end up with a lose lose situation, so much better to console one another than to get heated.

                  Hope that doesn’t sound patronising. You know what patronising means, I hope?

                • Angus McIonnach

                  Lame and childish.

      • Jambo25

        Per head, it’s probable, that Scots have put in more to the Treasury than they have taken out for the vast majority of the past 307 years since the Union.

    • DougDaniel

      I’m guessing you understand that Scots are “UK taxpayers” as well? So that stuff is funded by our own money, thanks.

      9.9% of all UK treasury revenue comes from Scotland.
      9.3% of all UK treasury expenditure goes to Scotland.

      “Do the math”, as they say in that former colony of the British Empire that (bizarrely!!!?!?!?) decided to run their own affairs rather than continue being ruled by Westminster.

      • Rockin Ron

        I’m guessing that people won’t give a fig about the figures which can be spun any way you like. It’s not the math that will win people but the knowledge that their precious free prescriptions and no student fees, etc may be threatened. In other words, perception will win out. It seems to me that current perception is that Scots get a good deal out of the Union. Therefore, why would they want out?

        • Dave Ward

          The figures are cold hard facts from the UK Govts own GERS report. We put in more than we get out and choose to use the pocket money we get back on socially useful and helpful things.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …same question for you, lad.

            • Dave Ward

              So glad I’ve met very few English people who can match your level of pure arsehole. Nice one lad, done well.

        • DougDaniel

          “figures which can be spun any way you like” – straight out of the book of “Things to say when you’re faced with inconvenient facts that you can’t dispute”. I’m not sure how “9.9% of UK revenue vs 9.3% of UK spending” can be spun in favour of the union, but whatever. You’re missing the point, though – the things you mention are already provided within the constraints of the Scottish Parliament’s budget, which is not going to get smaller with independence, because we’ll suddenly be in control of 100% of Scottish revenues.

          Independence will allow us to make better spending decisions in areas currently reserved to Westminster. So rather than having to contribute towards things like nuclear weapons that will never be used or a high-speed rail network that won’t even reach Scotland, we’ll be able to spend that money on things we actually value.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …like booze and cigarettes?

            • DougDaniel

              Ah yes, I forgot that nobody in England smokes or drinks.

              Surely you’ve forgotten “heroin and deep-fried Mars bars” in your highly-original satirical response?

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …well, no sense belaboring the point. I think we all know what you socialist jocks value, afterall.

          • Rockin Ron

            I get your point about the figures. They support your case. Big deal. Few will be influenced by that. What they will be influenced by is the threat, however little, that their concessions such as free prescriptions may be removed.

            The debate won’t be won by facts, because both camps can produce these by the yard, but by what people feel they will lose (or gain) by a Yes vote. Hence, I think there will be a big No vote, because turkey don’t vote for Christmas.

            • DougDaniel

              “The debate won’t be won by facts”

              Well, that certainly seems to be the approach the No campaign have adopted thus far. However, going by the trend in the polls (and anecdotal evidence of what people are hearing on the ground while campaigning, as well as the surveys carried out by the SNP when they contest by-elections), it’s not a particularly good strategy. People don’t like being taken for fools, and the increasingly bizarre and contradictory arguments put forward by the No campaign (“you’ll be chucked out of the EU, AND the EU will force you to join the Euro”?!??!) are turning people off in droves.

              The referendum is, in fact, going to be won by activists speaking to people in one-to-one situations and at town hall meetings. As Hamish’s article says, this is exactly why Yes are gaining ground. The “grassroots” support for the union is so thin on the ground that they’ve had to resort to getting people in London to phone people up and beg them to vote No.

              • Rockin Ron

                Well good luck with that. See what happens in September.

            • The voice of reason

              Then you are mis-reading the position based on your own perceptions . Its getting closer every day as shown by this poll – by September it will be very close and the more this sort of nonsense is spouted – the more likely it will be that the result is a vote for independence.

              • Rockin Ron

                You could be right. On the other hand I could be right. We can’t both be right. Either way, we will find out in September so I suggest taking this up later in the year.

            • Andrew Morton

              What a bizarre non sequitur.

  • CharlietheChump

    England votes No to Scotland

    • DougDaniel

      Gosh, with warm, embracing words like these, why on earth would we vote to get out of the union?

      • Wessex Man

        well please get out there and start campaigning rather than wasting your time here.

        • DougDaniel

          Strangely enough, I think my employers might have something to say about me ditching my work to go out and campaign during office hours.

          Rest assured though, I’m already very much involved with my local Yes group. You’ll be rid of us soon enough!

          • Wessex Man

            so you’ve not heard of that there is a time after work called evenings?

            • DougDaniel

              Indeed, but the phrase “well please get out there and start campaigning rather than wasting your time here” rather suggests the present, rather than the future.

              • Michele Keighley

                But … if you are so dedicated to your work, why are you on this commenting instead of working? I am retired before you ask.

    • terregles2

      You make it so hard to say goodbye. You better tell Cameron how you feel he keeps bleating that we Scots are part of the British family and he really wants us to stay. You better tell him that he is the only one who does. Please do it before he sends us the lovebomb that he promised. He intends to send celebrities up to Scotland to tell us how much we will be missed.
      Understandably we were a bit nervous when we heard that.

  • jazz606

    I was about to place a retirement lump sum with one of the big Scottish Life offices, but have decided to keep the funds south of the border because I have no idea of the effect that Scottish independence would have on these companies. Salmond and the Scots Nats appear to be economically illiterate and barking mad and I don’t want any exposure ( however small ) to their lunacy.

    • jazz606

      Replying to my own post !

      Yes, I know it’s bad form, but making the comment about Scottish based financial institutions above, prompted me to do a google search to find out how many of these there were. There are quite a few including some of the largest in Europe and the UK. I wonder what provisions these organisations have made for possible Scots independence, I hope they’ve got their heads out of the sand. Currently they are regulated by the FCA and to a lesser extent the BoE. What happens after independence ? Is financial regulation mentioned in Salmond’s ‘white paper’ ?
      These are important issues, maybe one of the Spectator’s or DT’s financial experts could comment ?
      I think that Salmond and the SNP are are bunch of crazies and I don’t want any of my assets within their jurisdiction.

      • Tom Hogg

        You “think” that Salmond and the SNP are a bunch of crazies? I’d have thought that a financial wizz like you would, as the saying goes, have DYOR and come to a definite view one way or the other.

        • jazz606

          Of course I have had a quick look and the proposed regulation appears at first sight to be dependent on Scotland remaining in the sterling area i.e. currency union. This appears doubtful, hence my question.
          In any event ‘ Scotlands’s Future – your guide to an Independent Scotland is just a wish list so I don’t place any reliance on what it says.

          • terregles2

            Mr Osborne only worked in a shop folding shirts before he went into politics. Think I would trust Salmond with my cash before I would trust Osborne.

      • The voice of reason

        If you remember back to last week Salmond was proved right about the position with regard to the deficit and who was responsible for it . The governor of the BoE is quite happy to talk to him and Swinney and I would imagine he’s not in the habit of talking to a bunch of crazies ( your words not mine) If you care to check the SNP Government have run a balanced budget for the lat 6 years since they are not allowed to borrow unders the terms of devolution which is a lot more than can said for recent UK governments of either colour. So I think we’ll mange to regulate our own finances just fine – however it would be better if there was a cooperative approach – and there will be because it just makes sense on so many levels .

    • DougDaniel

      Good to know, would hate to think we’re helping morons feather their nests.

      • jazz606

        I think you’ve got your ‘argument’ if I could call it that the wrong way round. It’s the ‘morons’ as you call them placing money with Scottish Financial institution who feather your nest.
        Do try and keep up.

        • DougDaniel

          No, they place their money in Scottish financial institutions, who invest it in things and give them back the dividends.

          You might want to get a financial advisor to help you decide where to invest your money, because you appear to be getting it confused with the concept of “charity”.

          • jazz606

            “…No, they place their money in Scottish financial institutions, who invest it in things and give them back the dividends..”…..less commissions and fees with which I have no problem. I don’t know why you’ve introduced ‘charity’ into the discussion.

    • The voice of reason

      I think you’ll find that Mr Salmond is a fully qualified economist and far better equiped to talk about the economy than Mr Osbourne but its entirely up to you what you do with your money – even if your reasoning is somewhat flawed

      • jazz606

        “… Mr Salmond is a fully qualified economist.”
        That’s right he worked for RBS and as First minister sent Fred the Shred an encouraging letter just as the latter was about to drive RBS off the cliff.
        Actually there is no such thing as a ‘fully qualified economist’ it’s not like being a doctor or an electrician where you can expect a basic level of competence. IOW having a degree in economics doesn’t necessarily imply any ability.
        Of course it isn’t a case of Salmond or Osborne its really a case of the FCA, UK Treasury and the BoE as against heaven knows what. If you read the white paper Salmond is relying on staying with sterling (a vain hope). I think you should do some homework.

  • Tony_E

    This would be a fantastic move for the English, so long denied any kind of self determination by the mechanics of the ‘West Lothian’ question.

    We won’t change the kind of politics we suffer until we reduce to smaller and more homogeneous voting areas. Once Scotland had become independent, the English could start to look at our own constitutional and democratic institutions with our own interests in mind.

    • Malcolm Wadia

      Tony,
      You’re absolutely right. As a ‘Yes’ supporter, I hope that Scottish Independence leads to a severe shake-up of democracy across this island.

      Our friends in England deserve better than the consitutional arrangements they have at the moment. We have an exit that is unfortunately denied to you but I hope you can achieve reform (though I wouldn’t hold my breath).

    • Paul Wilson

      That is precisely what the yes side have been saying in a 2 party system backed up by an unelected house of privilege how are things ever going to change for the regions of England they are not. Scotland is leading the way in breaking the cosy set up that allows the South east to suck the economic life out of the rest. Britain’s industrial base was sacrificed for the financial needs of the city and with it any hope of democracy. There is no democracy for the poor unless it’s I demand the right to be cold and hungry. Scotland will vote yes it has no choice.

  • McRobbie

    If, and its a big if, scotland votes yes then it will be a win win for the right. The tories will no longer have to face hordes of labour MP’s from over the border in the now english parliament and the pragmatic scots will soon realise that left wing polices do not encourage entrepreneurs and business and vote the capitalist right into power. It may take a decade but the scots are wise enough to know which side their bread is buttered on. Unfortunately it will take a few years of having no butter on their bread while the left in the form of either labour or the SNP ruin their economy.

    • DougDaniel

      1. There has never been an election where Scottish votes have turned a Tory majority into a Labour majority. If Labour win a General Election, it’s because they’ve won it outside Scotland. Bear in mind that the removal of Scottish seats also reduces the number of seats needed for a UK majority.

      2. I’m not sure Wales and Northern Ireland would agree that the loss of Scottish MPs automatically makes Westminster an English Parliament, not any more than it is now, anyway.

      3. The state the UK is in just now comes after three decades of unfettered right-wing capitalism (let’s not pretend Labour were socialist). Whatever the UK’s problems are, the capitalist right are clearly not the answer.

      Thanks for the patronising, clichéd “canny Scots” styled backhanded compliment, though. That’s why we’ll vote Yes, incidentally.

      • jazz606

        I don’t see that 59(?) lefty Scots MPs don’t effect the balance of power. We wouldn’t have the coalition without them.

        • DougDaniel

          Phew, thank goodness we avoided David Cameron and George Osborne controlling the government!

          • jazz606

            That’s it. You can join my ignore list.
            Byeeee.

            • Andrew Morton

              Given up, eh?

              • jazz606

                That’s right, us Sassenachs have no staying power although in my case I’m quite busy and have a low boredom threshold.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        No, you jocks won’t be voting yes. You lot prefer the suckling teat of socialist government, and that’s exactly what the idiots of Londonistan have been and will continue to give you.

        • CameronB

          This racist tag of “jocks” is particularly hard to counter. How does one insult the English, or indeed, polish a turd?

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …you may want to further explore your usage of “racist”, lad.

            • CameronB

              Is “jock” not a pejorative, implying an inferiority defined by ethnic difference from an assumed norm (being English)? Care to explain how that is not racist, dad?

              • Andrew Morton

                Strange that we have Jock, Paddy and Taffy, but there is no pejorative word for an Englishman. I wonder why that is?

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …you jocks won’t compromise, you’ll whimper, as usual.

  • Magnolia

    I think they will vote to go it alone and for the same reasons that I would probably vote for an independent Yorkshire at this moment in time and that is because the central elite are not listening. Society is not cohesive any more because liberalism has cut the family ties that bind communities together and individualism has paved the way for a nomadic way of life within a fully developed country.
    We have fractured along geographical lines and the invisible barriers are plain to see for those that are shut out of having a say over their beloved piece of land.
    It matters not that the nationalists are putting forward a useless socialist plan because independence means that the people can chose their own governance and they can easily get rid of them later on and replace them with a true Scottish government of their own liking which might even be radically conservative.
    Most of us in England have some Scottish roots and we will view the inevitable outcome with some sadness, much like an amputation.

    • HookesLaw

      You are barking. And looking at the political landscape in scotland it will be solidly Socialist if ever independent.
      But hysteria against the awful heathen central uncaring uselss central govt is just waht Salmond wants to hear.

      • Jambo25

        No it won’t. There is a right wing deficit, at present, solely because of the Tory Party. It has gone out of it’s way from the time of the abysmal Heath to make itself unelectable in Scotland. It has presented itself to the Scottish voter as a party solely of the English, suburban south over about the past 40 odd years.
        There is nothing in Scottish genes to say that we will always vote for the centre-left. In fact a party pushing a mainstream, mildly patriotic, Christian Democrat series of policies would do very well up here. A party representing the suburbs of the Home Counties won’t.

    • Andrew Morton

      There is some truth in that. You can come for holidays.

    • terregles2

      You raise some really good points Magnolia and it is such a nice change to have someone exchange ideas without being childish and nasty. Quite a few of my friends who live in England also say that they wish they had the chance to leave the Westminster government they are so disillusioned.
      Of course you are right Scots can vote out any government after independence and elect one that most suits our wishes.
      You are also right about the all of Scotland are extreme socialists myth. That is just one more sweeping assertion that is somewhat distant from the truth.
      Before the Thatcher government the Scottish Conservatives enjoyed a reasonable share of the Scottish vote.Interestingly some opinion is predicting that independence will result in an upsurge in Scottish Conservative fortunes. Like many YES voters I want independence but I don’t think it will affect my deep ties with friends and family in England. Ireland is independent and that does not affect my deep ties with my Irish family. Walking around Dublin for me is no different from walking around London. It will be the same after Scottish independence.

      • Nicholas chuzzlewit

        I think your view is naive in the extreme. You are walking around Dublin more than 80 years after Ireland gained its independence and it has evolved into a nation state in a less ‘globalised’ environment than would apply in the separation of England and Scotland. The reaction of the bond markets for example following a ‘Yes’ vote will be critical to the standards of living on both sides of the border. The recently announced guarantees by the Treasury in this regard are testimony to the reality and sensitivity of this issue. Should separation lead to a decline in the perception of the risk quality of UK debt then interest rates will rise and financial difficulties may follow. A lot of people will, rightly or wrongly, attribute the cause to Scottish independence and great bitterness will ensue. Obviously, I cannot predict the consequences of separation but to claim it will all be sweetness, light and brotherly harmony is naive in the absolute extreme. Cue scaremongering blah, blah, blah, sanctimony blah, blah, blah etc etc

        • terregles2

          I don’t think everything will be all sweetness and light after independence. I think both Scotland and England will face problems and challenges but then every country faces challenges and even if Scotland remains within the UK our future will not be all sweetness and light.
          We need look no further than this forum to see the resentment and dislike that many English voters have for Scottish people blaming us for every Labour government since the war. We are also called subsidy junkies and parasites. I think the great bitterness that you are afraid of already exist.
          I have faith in both Scotland and England and think both countries will do well after Scottish independence. It will be better for both countries and neither of us can blame the other for having a government that we do not like.

          • Nicholas chuzzlewit

            The drearily predictable reply of the practiced cybernat.

            • terregles2

              If you find my opinion predictable and dreary I am suprised that you rely to anything I post. I have never voted SNP but I am indeed voting YES. You seem to abuse anyone who disagrees with you and dismiss them as cybernats. With respect you are displaying all the characteristics of a Britnat.
              It is sad that you cannot exchange a point of view without being rude and confrontational.

  • Iain Hill

    PS Disqus must go!

  • anyfool

    Look at the Labour party polls, the Labour party has made no headway against what is to Scots a Tory government, the Scots are left with what appears to them a permanent Tory England which will eventually end up as a persistant Tory UK.
    That is the Question Scotland has to take into account, that could be helping the yes vote.

  • Iain Hill

    If it should happen,, how our laughter will resound after all the months of sneering complacency. But even then, will the Nosayers acquire any insight that this is part of the reason we want shot of you? Start to think of us as independent, friendly allies. We will probably still allow you access to your shooting estates!

    • Colonel Mustard

      After that comment I probably wouldn’t think of you as a ‘friendly ally’. Let’s hope a ‘Yes’ vote will draw some of the bitterness and hatred from anglophobes like you. Hopefully England, no longer saddled with Scots socialism in Westminster, might find its own path too.

      • terregles2

        You brought the awful Blair on all of the UK with an English landslide victory in 1997.

        • Colonel Mustard

          No I didn’t. I didn’t vote for him. He was Scottish too.

          • terregles2

            He wasn’t Scottish. Blair’s father was born to two Yorkshire actors father called Parsons. He was adopted by a Scottish couple called Blair. Blair’s mother was irish.
            Blair went to school in Edinburgh but he himself is a proud Englishman. Even if he were Scottish he came to power on a big majority of English votes. I have never voted Labour in my life so I take no blame for that dreadful little man.

            • Colonel Mustard

              Then don’t blame others for him as in your original comment.

  • swatnan

    All a bit ironic that Dave, 5th cousin 7 times removed from King George III, should lose us Scotland, just as King George lost us America.

    • HookesLaw

      Labour and devolution opened the gate. The NO campaingn is led by a socialist.

      • Jambo25

        The Tories opened the gate when they ceased to be a ‘one nation’ , UK party.

        • Colonel Mustard

          You can hardly blame them for not representing you when you didn’t vote for them! Cause and effect old boy. As the lady said “Scotland is a socialist country”.

          • Jambo25

            Try looking at it from the other end of the telescope. The old Unionist Party was the majority party in Scotland in the mid 50s. Part of ‘one nation’ Toryism. They were still running Labour neck and neck in the 60s.
            It was the Tories who slit their own throats by turning themselves into what looked like a particularly gruesome version of Esher Golf Club under the vile Heath then compounded the mistake by abolishing the ‘Unionist’ label, in Scotland, and replacing it with a one size fits all Conservative tag.
            They then went for broke by electing Thatcher and alienating, not just Scotland, but Wales, Northern England and many inner cities too. Thatcher, despite her unfortunate personality, could still have rebuilt the centre right position in Scotland by taking over and leading the devolution process. She could have kept control of devolution for the centre right and created a powerful Scottish equivalent to Bavaria’s CSU. Instead she proved to be, as far as Scotland was concerned, a narrow minded bigot. She and her party forfeited any claim on Scottish patriotism and left the Scottish Tories looking un-Scottish: a kind of colonial remnant. As a rather bright ex-Tory Scottish historian, Michael Fry noted, no European centre right party can hope to form governments without playing the patriotism card. The Scottish Tories cannot do that. Other, brighter, young Scottish Tories such as Alex Massie and David Torrance have made exactly the same point.

            • Colonel Mustard

              Precisely. But that is through your end of the telescope too.

              According to the Scots Parliament website the ‘Unionist’ label is still in use. At least they list the Tories there as such.

              • Jambo25

                Officially, they are the Scottish Conservative Party. They slavishly follow whatever central line is laid down by Conservative Central Office. They are literally dying out up here. There is a large Scottish centre-right vote with nowhere to go.
                In the last election for Scottish leader, one of the candidates, Murdo Fraser, did suggest that the name should be changed and the Scottish party move away from it’s English equivalent in order to start rebuilding, in a Bavarian CSU type way, in Scotland. He was immediately jumped on by a bunch of Tory Neanderthals led by Lord Forsyth of Gruesome. The eventual winner of this supremely unimportant election, Ruth Davidson, attacked Fraser’s idea but when faced with the hard realities of the Tory position, in Scotland, is now making tentative moves towards it.

    • Andrew Morton

      Sorry, I hadn’t realised I belong to you.

  • Maidmarrion

    Wonder if the Daily mail will pick up on any ” offensive ” comments here?
    Will they hound the likes of David whose comments are offensive to me? but then perhaps they ring a bell for DM readers and they find themselves comforted by his ignorance.

    • David Kay

      well if youre referring to me. I find the ignorant racist bigoted comments from scots even more offensive, and like most Englishmen, ive had enough of it and im giving it back. The Scottish National Socialists are typical of lefties, theyre good at giving it, not at taking it

      • HookesLaw

        A thick comment – music to salmonds ears.

        • David Kay

          thanks. job done on my part

          • terregles2

            I know you mean well but I can’t think of anyone who would be influenced on how they vote on Scottish independence by your silly schoolboy name calling.

    • asalord

      We’re all waiting for The Daily Mail’s next “Zinoviev Letter”.

    • Wessex Man

      They are as offensive to me as well but then so are the rantings of the usual rabid half dozen Scots who also live on these pages!

      • Jambo25

        Examples of the rabid ranting from a half dozen Scots please.

    • terregles2

      Perhaps David works for the DM

  • sunnydayrider

    After the Ashes debacle, something is going Englands way at last.

  • Colin

    Good!

    A yes vote is probably the only thing standing between the rest of the UK and the catastrophe of a labour victory, at the next general election. Bring on separation.

    • Colonel Mustard

      It raises an interesting question. Should Scotland, having voted for ‘independence’ and separation then be able to vote for a government in Westminster in 2015? The effect of a ‘Yes’ vote would not be immediate so it will create some interesting issues over whether a Labour government dependent on post-referendum Scots votes would continue to have a legitimate mandate after actual separation.

      • Andy

        It would not. Her Majesty would dissolve and summon a new Parliament.

        • W.mc Neill

          Are you OK pal. The Queen dissolve parliament? Not bloody likely, she lost all her powers long ago. Just like you’re losing yours with the bunch of dangerous Tory bastards we have in Westminster. Scottish independence will save the rest of what was the U.K.

      • Colin56

        The clear answer to that straightforward question is ‘No’. However, to avoid all the argument and shenanigans that any straight answer is likely to raise, the pragmatic strategy would be to allow the scots to vote in the 2015 election as they would, at that point, still be part of the UK; but to limit the term of that parliament to the day of Scottish independence, when a further election would be called in which the Scots would not be eligible to vote; and would best be held simultaneously with elections to the Scottish Parliament, so that both countries start off with a clean sheet.
        Best also to repeal the ridiculous fixed-term Parliaments Act, introduced by the cretinous Coalition to limit the power of Parliament to bring down the government except in very limited circumstances. Fixed term Parliaments result in lame duck administrations: you only have to look to Washington to see that.

    • BarkingAtTreehuggers

      Now, if someone would be accusing you of selling out your country for yet to be proven short-term political gain, would he be right?

      • Colin

        Nah. My country was sold out, years ago, by a Political / Media Complex, obsessed with short term gain. I’m more interested in the medium to long term. If the people of Scotland decide to vote for independence, then the chance for the rest of us to be rid of labour, for ever, is too good to miss.

        As I’ve written before, the British Left in general and the labour party in particular, have been responsible for every rotten outcome, every dashed aspiration and every lost opportunity, for the last seventy years. Every cloud has a silver lining.

        • BarkingAtTreehuggers

          Good luck with pointing out the last Labour government which relied on the votes from Scotland in order to get into power.
          You may be in for a double whammy: Scotland on its way out in 2014, a Labour-led government in 2015. But of course an above average performance of the UKIP at the May elections will deliver the much-needed comfort many will require before the hard truth hits them.

        • terregles2

          The dreadful Blair government had a landslide victory in 1997. England would have had that dreadful man in charge even without one single Scottish vote.
          He did have Scots in his cabinet but if Scots had been independent he would have had plenty of dreadful English people to run his government such as Prescott, Blunkett, Straw, Harman etc.
          Blair was elected on a massive English majority and unfortunately for the English there is no guarantee that it would not happen again after Scottish independence.

          • Michele Keighley

            When you say ‘dreadful English people’ are you suggesting that all English are dreadful? In which case I will call you out as a vile xenaphon.

            • Michele Keighley

              OR … did you mean to say ‘Dreadful government ministers who are English’ – in which case I suggest you revisit your English grammar – or should that be Scottish grammar in your case? Either way, you leave the reader somewhat confused.

              • Jambo25

                See my reply to you above. Pot, kettle, black etc.

            • terregles2

              I did not call all English people dreadful. Do not put words into my mouth. I have never insulted or denigrated the English nation ever. I have lots of English friends and family so I never would. Stop trying to make mischief.
              I was commenting on the dreadful Blair government and the dreadful people who governed with him. The dreadful Scots English and Welsh politicians in the Westminster government.
              The only reason I mentioned the word English is because so many have been blaming Scots for the dreadful Blair government and telling us Blair was Scottish. If you are looking for any anti English people comments from me I’m afraid you will have a long wait.
              I like most English people very much. Get over it.

            • Jambo25

              No, she wasn’t. She was saying that there would have been plenty of dreadful English people (She gave examples.) to take over from the dreadful Scots who were in Blair’s circus.
              Incidentally, the word you are looking for is xenophobe. I seem to recall that Xenophon was a Greek historian.

            • terregles2

              I am referring to Labour politicians all of them English Scottish Welsh. Stop trying to say I am anti English when I have lots of English family and friends.
              I never have and never will make an anti English person statement. There is enough nastiness in the world without you trying to add to it.
              A vile xenaphon what a malicious remark made only to try and cause trouble between Scottish and English people.

  • john

    Hooray – let’s go Scots!
    If they do it, it’ll shake up the Tory/Monarchist power base down in London and the rest of us can pick up the cudgels..

    • Eric McLean

      You are absolutely correct. England needs something seismic to shake up the corrupt Westminster system.

  • Daniel Maris

    Well I remain firm in my prediction of a Yes majority, as I have from the start. The closer they get to the finish line, the more emotion will play a part.

    • Iain Hill

      Let’s hope so.

  • David Kay

    i hate articles like this because it just gives me hope that England will finally get rid of that Scottish socialist parasite. But lets face facts, its not going to happen. No animal, not even a Scotsman, would bite the hand that feeds them.

    But if this post gets one undecided to vote “yes” then job done on my part

    • Daniel Maris

      You’ve obviously never fed a donkey.

      • David Kay

        i’d rather my taxes went to the Donkey Sanctuary to feed Donkeys than to Scotsman to feed his booze and smack habbit. Support Donkeys not Scotsmen

        http://www.thedonkeysanctuary.org.uk/

        • Eric McLean

          Have you ever been called an offensive bigot before?

          • David Kay

            no but ive been racially abused by Scottish bigots jealous of the English because Scots live in a cr@ppy country with cr@ppy lives and blame the English for everything. Im sure you kow the type of person im talking about

            • Eric McLean

              No please enlighten

              • Dicky14

                Sounds like the divorce cost him a bit.

                • AtMyDeskToday

                  Guaranteed a nice Scots lass stood him up and he’s never gotten over it.

                • David Kay

                  yeah your women are more manly than you so called scottish men. I’ll give your scottish girls credit though, they’re clever, all their tattoos are spelt right. But inking themselves with love and hate on their knuckles isnt very bright

                • terregles2

                  “spelt right ” grammar David grammar.

                • Eric McLean

                  Something made him bitter. Maybe she was a wee Glaswegian redhead LOL

              • HookesLaw

                Enlighten?
                No enlightenent from you 2 sad thick examples of Britishness. What a grossly pathetic and objectionable conversation you are having.

                • Eric McLean

                  You mistake me for British and a man that give a monkey’s cuss for your opinion.

            • AtMyDeskToday

              Enjoy your floods.

              • David Kay

                ive hated the floods. the floods of scottish immigrants ruining englands green and pleasant land

                • AtMyDeskToday

                  Actually the one thing you have a deep inner hatred of is yourself. Go on admit it, you’ll feel better.

                • David Kay

                  good heavans no. You sweaty socks have the deep inner hatred of yourselves and you blame the English for it. Its not our fault you have a mutant gene that turned you all ginger. Just get over it

                • AtMyDeskToday

                  “good heavans no”
                  Denying it will not make it better. Best you to talk to mummy about this, maybe she can help.

                • David Kay

                  no we English are real men, unlike you wimps of men in scotland. We have the English stiff upper lip and dont go running to mummy like nancy boys . But to Scotland, England is your mummy who you come running to, especially when you need money or bullies are attacking you, like when
                  icelandic fisherman attacked your fishermen in the 70s

                • AtMyDeskToday

                  Actually in your case I doubt you could get anything stiff.

                • David Kay

                  i get the stiff reality of my taxes being spent on ungrateful scottish socialists like you

                • AtMyDeskToday

                  Wrong again. Never voted Labour in my life. Deeply ingrained conservative. Do try to do better, this is becoming boring.

                • James Cammeron

                  Have you notice how all of a sudden you are just talking amongst yourselves 🙂

                • Wessex Man

                  Well I’m marking your posts down and I’m an English Nationalist. There’s absolutely no need to sink to the levels of bird brained vitriol displayed by clowns like Jambo25, AtMyDeskToday and Asalord

                • David Kay

                  thanks for your honesty.

                • Jambo25

                  Examples of my “brd brained vitriol” please.

                • Wessex Man

                  just go back and check your rants.

                • Jambo25

                  So no examples.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  Wether or not he is right or wrong would require detailed examination but he has suggested that everything you contribute is anti-English. Thus he has provided you with examples. Your bleating to the contrary therefore looks rather silly. You might add the word ‘specific’ but I probably need to explain what that means unless you have a dictionary.

                • Jambo25

                  So still no examples. I state that you b.gg.r sheep. I don’t have to give examples of you doing it. After all, me stating it is proof enough.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  It is not me making the assertion but Wessex man. Your example is therefore a complete non sequitur. I was merely pointing out your inability to recognise his suggestion that all of your contributions fall foul of his standards and that you might, perhaps, ask him to offer ‘specific’ examples. My suggestion that you must be a disappointment to your school is however gaining traction.

                • Jambo25

                  You don’t do this understanding writing thing very well: do you? I have been continually asking him for specific examples. You can read the results.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  As I said, not me asking for examples old boy just pointing out your ignorance and illiteracy.

                • Michele Keighley

                  Perhaps, it would mean you would have to read what you write with an impartial eye – not something I think you may be familiar with, unfortunately.

                • Jambo25

                  Examples of my anti-English bigotry then, please. You know, Ms Keighley, assertion is not proof.

                • Jambo25

                  So still no proof of his contention of any sort.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Says the idiot who mocks the innocent victims of flooding because they happen to live in England.

                • BarkingAtTreehuggers

                  Innocent? If the central politburo denies you essential dredging etc then who is innocent sitting on his/her behind?
                  This is an East German line of argument: ‘I could not do anything, the evil Tory centralist state would not let me.’
                  It took four (4) weeks to set up the pumps that have now finally been set up? How is that not centralist socialism in its purest form? Complete and utter incompetence.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  I have no idea what you are on about.

                • BarkingAtTreehuggers

                  No one is innocent other than children. When you give away the powers to look after your land to some obscure centalist government organisation, then grown-ups will only have themselves to blame. The rest is politburo-style socialism.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  No, still not with you I’m afraid.

                • BarkingAtTreehuggers

                  Humour me. I will respond by pointing out that exposing many of these outdated centralist (Tory) views are hitting home hard wherever we look. In this instance Owen Peterson is only seen in the flooded areas four weeks after the event. That beats even Bush jr. in New Orleans (!)

                • Colonel Mustard

                  I still think that people whose houses were flooded were in the main innocent and that to ask them mockingly to “enjoy” their floods because they happen to be English (whereas in fact some might well have been expatriate Scots) lacked compassion.

                • BarkingAtTreehuggers

                  Of course it lacked that, one provocation follows the other. The children are out and have filled this blog with irrelevances.
                  Yet the socialist and centralist politburo is exposed yet again for what it is.

                • Jambo25

                  In reply to the eejit who tars Scots as being booze hound junkies.

            • Maureen Luby

              Oh the level of your ignorance is astounding! Best to do some research before coming onto forums and spouting nonsense about something you very clearly know nothing about. As they say it’s best to keep quiet and be thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt.

              • David Kay

                listen sweet heart, you bigoted scottish racists are a bunch of digusting ungrateful money grabbing parasites and you do your research without manipulating the figures. Good luck with your independence. Youre up poo creek without English money. Thats why you need the EU. You want to suck the life out of german tax payers

              • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                ‘Nonsense’ can of course be defined as anything you happen to disagree with.

        • Iain Hill

          Tacky and racist.

          • Alexsandr

            cant be racist. scots are the same race as English, and indeed wuropeans.

          • David Kay

            scotsmen are arent they

        • tommy boyle

          David, learn to spell young man, learn to spell……before posting…….had you been educated in Scotland,you wouldn’t appear so dumb.

    • HookesLaw

      You talk the talk that Salmond prays for.

      • David Kay

        i talk the talk, but Salmond doesnt walk the walk

        • Eric McLean

          Best MP in the country according to the polls.

          • David Kay

            so was Hitler. He was a national socialist as well

            • Eric McLean

              And your point exactly?

              • David Kay

                well if you dont understand my point what can i say apart from what a waste of my tax money was spent on trying to educate you

                • asalord

                  Certainly the evil of British nationalism must be eradicated.
                  Scotland regaining its independence will go some way in achieving just that.

                • David Kay

                  British nationalism is something to be proud of, unlike the national socialist ideology that you scots embrace

                • Angus McIonnach

                  Man, you are a contemptible buffoon David Kay. I think you’ve edged out the “gin” guy in the nincompoop stakes. Sorry for the ad hom, but really, staggering.

        • Jambo25

          Any chance of putting that into English?

          • David Kay

            maybe if you went to school that was funded by english tax payers instead of hanging round parks drinking cheap super strength lager you would be able to understand english

            • Jambo25

              I actually attended a school which produced a couple of England’s recent Lord Chancellors, various cabinet ministers etc and punished bigotry and stupidity of your sort very vigorously.

              • Wessex Man

                as against your casual steady bragging racist ranting against we English?

                • Jambo25

                  Examples of my “bragging racist ranting against we English?” Incidentally, I doubt my English family or friends would wish to be included in any “we” with you.

                • Wessex Man

                  Thank you for being you.

              • David Kay

                so you drank super strength lager with red bull added. Very posh

                • Jambo25

                  One of my more eccentric fellow pupils used to try and sneak in the odd half bottle of Hock to have with his lunch, in the refectory, but a vigilant master put a stop to that.

              • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                So you must rank as a terrible disappointment by comparison. Boasting about one’s education on these threads serves only to make one look like a braggart and a fool.

                • Jambo25

                  Yes, you are right. I should have left Mr. Kay under his misapprehension that I spent my schooldays necking super strength lager. After all, in the view of English patriots such as Mr. Kay all Scots schoolboys, no doubt, do that.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  Self pitying victim hood is equally silly.

            • Jambo25

              It looks like I’m going to have to repeat this as it appears to have gone missing: so here goes. I attended the kind of school that turned out a couple of England’s more recent Lord Chancellors, cabinet ministers of both Westminster and Holyrood governments and also severely punished the kind of stupidity and bigotry displayed by your good self, Mr Kay.

              • Wessex Man

                So you are English, hang on a minute though there is no such thing as ‘English Lord chancellors, we have no Parliament.

                • Jambo25

                  lord Chancellor is a quasi-judicial post which is applicable to England. BTW, I’m not English: I just attended a Scottish public school which produced 2 Lord Chancellors.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  And that does what to enhance the relevance and veracity of your posts?

                • Jambo25

                  it was an a explanation written for the benefit of Wessex Man. Perhaps before you comment on something you should read what you are commenting about then engage your brain.

      • Wessex Man

        Hooky don’t you think that the Scot contributors here talk the talk of racism and hatred to we English, I pray they will make the right decision that we English have always been denied by your boss and Blair and Brown and break up this pathetic Union.

    • Eric McLean

      You’ve been reading too much Westminster propaganda. Scotland GDP per capita, 99% of England, excluding oil.

      • David Kay

        yes and you believe the nonsense that comes out of Salmonds mouth. England pays for Scotland.

        • Eric McLean

          Links, evidence, proof?.

          I cite the GERS report that demonstrates the contrary.

          • David Kay

            you can site what you want, you scottish parasites are sucking the life out of Englands finances.

            • hoddles

              Evidence?

              • David Kay

                The Royal Bank Of Scotland for starters. Theyre in the news today because they need another £3 Billion English pounds from the English tax payer. You Scots need to learn money doesnt grow on English trees

                • hoddles

                  RBS is owned by UK government. Not Scottish. Even when privately owned, only 10% of it was Scottish-owned. Anyway, £3 billion chickenfeed compared to what Scotland is paying for southern UK HS2.

                • James Cammeron

                  This is now an English bank (after the takeover), registers in Canary Wharf. Enjoy the debt.

            • Eric McLean

              You are reading too much Westminster propaganda

            • Eric McLean

              Oh…. and the word is cite not site!

          • Alexsandr

            well look at the barnet formula for a start.

            • Malcolm Wadia

              See reply to Lady Ding Dong: Expenditure is £1200 higher (but a lower % GDP), Income is £1700 higher. Unionists tend to miss out the second part for some reason.

            • Eric McLean

              I pretty much know the Barnett formula inside out. I have all the spreadsheets that are its source documents.

              They confirm that Scotland more than pays her way.

              Further, we spend more per capita on lottery, beer, cigs and gambling…. and get less than a fair per capita share of the tax back?

              You’d think the people who contribute the tax should have it spent in their community at least.

              • Alexsandr

                no. governments tax everyone and spend how it pleases. but the barnett formula was unfair cos everyone got more per capita than the english. And even that isnt right because London gets the loins share of english spend

                anyway by your argument you will be stopping the subsidies for the island ferries because the people of glasgow and edinburgh pay the most tax?

        • hoddles

          Let’s see your proof

          • David Kay

            turn the BBC Scotland TV news on. Its massively funded by the English TV licence payers.

            • hoddles

              Such total ignorance. Scots pay 8.4% of BBC revenue. 3% of BBC spending is in Scotland. You really are a clueless dolt.

              • David Kay

                absolute nonsense. BBC Scotland is massively funded by the English. You also get all the stuff made for Britain not just made for Scotland.

                When you get your indepedence i hope the BBC jam the signal to Scotland. You get enough freebies from the English you bigoted clueless idiot

                • hoddles

                  Do you know any facts at all or do you simply feed off your ill-informed prejudices?

                  Educate yourself: http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/psb/responses/mceihil_annex.pdf

                  Provides 8.6% of BBC revenue. Gets 3.7% of BBC spending

                • James Cammeron

                  Is that enough from this ignoramus? He has nothing to contribute to the debate but Bile.

                • terregles2

                  Well I stopped watching BBC or wanting any contact with them in any way after the Savile scandal and cover up.

                • Liam Carle

                  Are you 12 years old? How do you function in real life?

              • bobl

                If the Scots do vote yes, perhaps we could give them the BBC as a parting gift. With all their wealth the Scots will surely be able to spare 3.5billion a year for an old auntie.

            • James Cammeron

              Scots pay £280m in licence fee, only £82m is spent on Scots. programing. So prospects for better programming.

              • mdj

                100% of BBC output is viewable in Scotland, surely?

                • Malcolm Wadia

                  But not 100% of the jobs!

                • Jambo25

                  little of BBC’s output is viewable, in quality terms, anywhere.

            • Malcolm Wadia

              See figures below…

  • Colonel Mustard

    Aprés moi le backlash.

    Tee-hee.

  • swatnan

    I can see Scotland sitting quiite comfortably in a Nordic Alliance or Federation of Nordic States in a couple of decades time, more so than Nigel’s Little England.
    Scotland has a lot in common with the Scandinavians which surround the N Sea, Fish and Oil mainly; and Danish Crona could be he currency, and the Danes could also help out providing Scotland with a Monarch as well.

    • Colonel Mustard

      And they could even use Denmark’s tax rates:-

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Denmark

      They’ll probably need them when reality kicks in.

      • MichtyMe

        Should not mind, if we have Danish incomes.

      • Eric McLean

        The Danish tax rates are no worse than UK when you add in all our stealth taxes. On top, they have significantly better salaries and get better services for their money.

      • Jambo25

        That’ll be Denmark with higher living standards and quality of life than the UK?

      • Jambo25

        That’ll be the Denmark with the higher living standards and quality of life than the UK?

        • Colonel Mustard

          Is there an echo in here?

          I know you are one of those who always has an answer for everything but twice?

          • Jambo25

            No, but Disqus has been playing silly b.gg.rs with my postings today.

    • Swiss Bob

      Scotland has a lot in common with the Scandinavians

      Either Scotland has a lot in common with Scandinavia or the Scottish have a lot in common with Scandinavians, neither would be true though.

      • Eric McLean

        It’s all relative. Scotland has much in common with the Scandinavian countries.

        • David Kay

          yes like youre all 6ft and blonde like the Scandinavians. Err no youre not, your all 5ft and ginger

          • Kyle Mackay

            Sorry to spoil your image of Scots, I’m afraid I don’t fit your stereotype. You are right that I’m not 6ft though, i’m 6ft1, blonde hair too but I do have a ginger beard 🙂

          • Eric McLean

            Yes, and we eat deep fried confectionary apparently.

        • Tea and crumpets?

          I’ve visited all but Finland and the Faeroe Islands, I can tell you now, Scots do not have a lot in common, except they share a vast sea that separates them from the other, just like Enngland does. The whole “we can be the next Norway” is true, in terms of a success story, like any other Nation that is clever with it’s assests and improves upon itself. But Scotland has little cultural Heritage. Ironically Norweigen is the easiest language to learn for English speakers. And the newly elected government is a right wing, with a coalition of a more far right party. But I think the best argument the SNP have for them is Scotland has rejected the right. Which is very true. And a good grounds for the main case. But it’s not like Norway.

          • terregles2

            Scotland has little cultural heritage.? Can you explain that comment I am truly puzzled.

            • Tea and crumpets?

              My apologies, that was meant to be…share little cultural heritage with the Scandinavian countries.

              • terregles2

                Oh thanks for the explanation. I agree with what you said.

          • CameronB

            “But Scotland has little cultural Heritage.”

            That is a truly astonishing statement. May I hazzard a guess that you are not Scottish yourself?

            • Tea and crumpets?

              Sorry for the late reply. It’s now morning in New Zealand and I was being a lazy typist. Before you jump to conclusions, I have only been here a year, so I’m not a kiwi. The comment was meant to read. “shares little cultural heritage with the Scandinavian countries”. I’ll give you the found Lewis Chess set and a few other bits and bobs. But speaking as a half Norweigen, Scots do not have a lot in common. When I drive up the A82 and see all the Gaelic signs and folks wearing kilts, it doesn’t feel very Scandinavian to me. it was only 5 years ago Scotland was going to be the next Celtic Tiger in the Arc of prosperity more aligned with the Republic of Ireland than Norway. But just because the circumstances change you shouldn’t just jump onto another country because it suits you. You can say “look how well these other countries are doing, we can aspire to be like them~”. And I encourage you to vote yes. But please don’t pretend you have a lot in common with me, it’s quite insulting. By which I mean, you would probably be insulted If I called you British.

              • terregles2

                I have Scottish and Swedish roots but I really don’t see people in terms of their nationality. I get on well with most people wherever I travel in the world. I must admit wherever i travel in Scotland I never come across many people wearing a kilt.

                • Tea and crumpets?

                  Having roots vs lived and being a citizen of of another country are 2 completly different things. And your personality has never come into question. I’m sure your a lovely person, Just as I like to think of myself as a well-rounded happy chap that gets on with all kinds of folks. But my point being, I dislike all the comparrisons with Scandinavian countries, especially Norway as you might imagine, we are quite reserved so it suites my English half. On the kilt issue, it was more of a jib 😉 my apologies. Your right, the only time I have ever seen a kilt walked around as normal (i.e. not a wedding, bus full of tourists, or a piper) was in Stromness, where I didn’t see a single saltire on any of the boats or streets. Go figure. There were a few Celtic shirts around though.

                • terregles2

                  Sorry I don’t think I made myself very clear. My paternal grandparents were Swedish and I agree that it is different from living in a country. I just don’t think any nation is predominantly just any one thing. I have met many reserved Scottish/Swedish/English/ Spanish etc and also some really outgoing extrovert ones.
                  I don’t like comparison between any nations. We are all a mixture of different roots and at the end of the day we are all Jock Tamson’s bairns.
                  I don’t think Scots or any other nation are any better or worse than another. We are all a mixture of good bad and indifferent with different personality traits.
                  I attended a talk on independence by an Icelandic musician at a Celtic connections event. His humour and connection with the audience was not based on his nationality but on his personality.
                  I think most of the comparisons made between Scotland and Norway are made not on cultural issues but in terms of smaller countries being successful.
                  Norway as we know has done very well since they separated from Sweden and Norway has certainly managed their oil wealth much more prudently than Westminster who blew the lot.

                • Tea and crumpets?

                  Also, that reply was to the other chap, who seems to think of people in terms of their nationallity, even if you don’t.

          • Eric McLean

            I have visited and/or worked in all but Finland as well. I see plenty of similarities.

            I think the right wing will emerge in an independent Scotland as well.

        • Swiss Bob

          Their peoples like to spend their time completely plastered?

          • Eric McLean

            We share many common words. We eat herring. And we go out in winter in a T-shirt.

            What do you think?

            • Tea and crumpets?

              You also drive on the other side of the road, Eat fish and chips, have a different Monach, watch more than 1 BBC channel (i.e. more than world service) play rugby, wear kilts, play bag pipes, Have a poor ski season. Whether you like it or not, you have far more in common with the rest of the Britsh Isles. “We share many common words”? You share an entire language with the only country you have a land border with. You don’t have to convince me to vote yes. I would if I could. But you can’t start pretending your Scandinavian. Sorry.

              • Eric McLean

                Did I ever say we didn’t have anything in common with the English or the Irish ?? LOL

                You seem a tad defensive.

                • Tea and crumpets?

                  I just find it very confusing as someone who when lived in Penicuik (and will shortly be moving to Inverness) was always told by Scots I had nothing in common with them. They, presuming I am nothing but English, who but of course votes only tory. When the truth is I am half Norweigen and spent 12 years of my life in Fjørå. So now we have everything in common and were best of friends?

                • Eric McLean

                  Well, you are obviously a little bit sensitive and choosing the wrong friends… I suspect what you are hearing is a country, trying to wrest itself from Westminster control and conflating nationality with government policy that is beneficial to the SE and detrimental to Scotland.

            • Swiss Bob

              I think you don’t have a clue.

              None of the Scandinavians I have known as friends or colleagues would consider they had anything remotely in common with Scotland or the Scottish.

              You might as well compare yourselves to the DRC, you have the same life expectancy.

              • Jambo25

                Figures please.

    • Iain Hill

      Nice lady, and an opera lover!

  • The_greyhound

    Cowdenbeath tells a very different story. SNP down 13 percentage points at 28% of the vote.

    Just as well that Sturgeon and Salmond have got nice jobs lined up, shining Trump’s boots.

    • HookesLaw

      Yes a real vote

    • MichtyMe

      Hmmm… an ICM poll in the paper yesterday, SNP 43% Labour 24%

      • Nicholas chuzzlewit

        So 67% are in favour of leftist parties. Good luck with that.

    • Eric McLean

      Petty.

    • DougDaniel

      Yes, because Cowdenbeath was a vote on independence. Oh wait, no, it was a by-election to decide who to replace a recently-departed Labour MSP – the only constituency in Fife which didn’t fall to the SNP in 2011, in fact, which tells you something about the strength of feeling for Labour there.

      A lot of Labour supporters said “I’m voting Labour, but I’ll be voting Yes in the referendum.”

    • terregles2

      The YES vote is not a vote for the SNP many YES voters are campaigning from several other Scottish political parties.
      Cowdenbeath is staunch Labour it is far from being representative of all of Scotland.
      A donkey in a red rosette would win there for Labour. Some might argue that has indeed happened in the past.
      There are several other YES parties not just SNP.

  • Chris Hobson

    Good, and you’re not having the pound either.

    • Eric McLean

      Bet you we do. It will become clear shortly. Just like the dual passports.

    • DougDaniel

      Not your decision to make, I’m afraid. If you want us to pay our fair share of the UK’s debt (which we are under no legal obligation to do, since the UK Treasury has confirmed it will assume all the debt – but we want to play nicely), then you’re going to have to play a game of give and take.

      Difficult for unreconstructed imperialists to comprehend I realise, but that’s how the modern world works.

      • Chris Hobson

        Its OK scot i know youre depressed after having a failed miserable imperialist bankrupted venture yourself. Good riddance though good luck with the EU communists xx

  • LadyDingDong

    One can only hope the scots come to their senses and vote yes so we will be rid of the whining welfare-addicted socialists and can build a United Kingdom fit for the future. Whereas I would once have been a staunch unionist I am now sick to death of them and can’t wait for border controls. Unfortunately, the moment they get their independence, half of the buggers will head south.

    • chudsmania

      Eu membership , Euro currency , budget checks , i can hardly wait. Will put the West Lothian question to bed for good. Think i’ll stock up with popcorn , this could be highly amusing !

      • Eric McLean

        Indeed it may be amusing,but not like you imagine.

        • Richard

          Eric, get back to the New Statesman immediately!!

          • Eric McLean

            Why Richard? I have no particular allegiance to either. I like you watch the English Zeitgeist unfolding from two extreme perspectives.

            • Nicholas chuzzlewit

              Oh how very superior minded of you. The “English Zeitgeist” now that takes some beating. I think I will run a competition to see if any Scot can come up with anything more pompous and condescending.

    • MichtyMe

      Border controls, tee hee, what would they be, can’t control the existing entry points, criminals, terrorists and motley undesirables seem to have unrestricted access, yet some fantasize on a secure land border.

      • AtMyDeskToday

        One purpose a controlled border might serve is to keep out all the undesirables that want to escape England.

        • DougDaniel

          That’s a terrible way to describe English people.

    • Eric McLean

      Hardly a UNITED Kingdom.

      • Colonel Mustard

        Not with people like you in it that’s for sure.

        • asalord

          Bitter together,better apart.

          • Wessex Man

            well you would know having been bitter forever!

            • Ronald Anderson

              Ah gave up drinking that Greeneman Bitter when I came back to Scotland in the 70s I now drink a gid Pint of Scottish Heavy, an ah good Malt chaser,I,llbe able to afford a 1/2 pint of that after INDEPENDENCE, chin chin up.

          • Nicholas chuzzlewit

            Fatuous cliche alert.

        • Eric McLean

          You know me? Wow? I must check my Linked in and Google + more often.

          • Colonel Mustard

            Only from your stupid comments. Don’t get excited.

            • Eric McLean

              Oh dear… you are rattled.

              • Colonel Mustard

                Don’t be like that. I never get rattled. Think of my comments delivered as they are intended. Cold. Calm.

                • Eric McLean

                  Perhaps an name change then? Reverend Green perhaps?

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  Like I said, this requires deftness and wit. You do not have those qualities.

                • Eric McLean

                  Damn, you’ve been checking my o’level results.

    • dalai guevara

      Matey – you are Greek. don’t you think we know? You told us, remember, neotelepapadopoulos. Scots would be hard pressed to take ‘advice’ from you.

    • AtMyDeskToday

      Ah heaven. Another impetus for the YES voters.

    • Iain Hill

      You mean an Engerland fit etc

    • Rossspeak

      I,m with you – had enough of these whinging Scots. We can now frack for our own oil ( let them have the North Sea above Carlisle) – we can get rid of the above average welfare support they get from England – and, above all, get rid of the Scottish MP’s in the House of Commons.
      Puts different maths on the Tory/Labour balance – bet Cleggy is biting his nails!

      • Angus McIonnach

        “let them have the North Sea above Carlisle”

        Oh yes – the dry, hilly bit of the North Sea.

        • Jambo25

          People like our friend above aren’t exactly the best informed of God’s creatures.

        • Rossspeak

          I do apologise for being geographically vague – I should have looked up and quoted a line of latitude.
          How about re-instating Hadrian’s wall for it’s original purpose- that will do as a boundary line.
          Sick to death with sanctimonious Scots- when those of us in London and SE are leading the recovery, paying the lions share of the PAYE revenue and getting stuffed on house prices.
          If the Scots want independence – fine with us- you are welcome to the EU and Euro as well.

          • Angus McIonnach

            “I do apologise”

            No need – it was very amusing.

          • Nicholas chuzzlewit

            Oh no, the whole country is held together by ‘Scottish’ oil and the South East of England and London is a huge drain on Scotland and it’s unparalleled economic performance. Nice try but if you think will persuade any of these ‘cybernats’ otherwise well good luck with that. Regards a fellow SE taxpayer.

          • Dave Ward

            And yet yopu follow it up with more geographical nonsense. Unless you want Scotland to include most Geordies?

      • tommy boyle

        u dont frac for oil, u frac for gas…..eejit.

        • Rossspeak

          I am not a petrochemical engineer – but believe I am right in saying that the reason the USA will shortly become self sufficient in oil is that they are fracking for BOTH gas and oil.
          Would someone care to confirm I am not the “eejit” I am accused of being?

          • Richard

            You are indeed correct. The oil and gas in fracking is released under pressure from within the rock unlike normal wells where it lies between the rocks (that’s the easy stuff to get out.

            • Rossspeak

              Thank you Richard – don’t mind people disagreeing with my opinions – but marginally miffing to be called an “eejit” -( I presume that is Irish for one of limited intelligence)- when I have read many articles about Oil being fracked and so was fairly sure of my facts.

          • Nicholas chuzzlewit

            You are correct. He is an idiot.

        • Rossspeak

          tommy – note comment from Richard below – any chance of a retraction?

          • Richard

            I think radio silence will be observed whilst he finds out he is wrong !!

          • Neil MacKenzie

            On the oil or the eejit comment?

            Just asking…

          • Ronald Anderson

            Naw you are rite Rossspeak oil/gas fracking, want tae buy any drinking Watter, a wee bit extra fur Highland Spring tho

        • Nicholas chuzzlewit

          Yes you can. You and the 32 who voted you up are idiots.

      • Wands1962

        Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
        Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/abrahamlin109276.html#Mg7vY3Pd01ivsfJU.99
        Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
        Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/abrahamlin109276.html#Mg7vY3Pd01ivsfJU.99
        Dear Lady Dingbat et al ….. Sometimes ….. It’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
        Why would almost every Westminster MP be in an extreme panic to keep Scotland in the Union ? The answer is of course, because Scotland has subsidised the south of England for many, many years.

      • Makroon

        If the Scots vote YES, will they be allowed to vote in the UK election of 2015 ? If yes, Why ? If no, How will that work ?

        • Malcolm Wadia

          Makaroon, Scotland will not become independent until 24th March 2016 (allowing an 18 month window for negotiations) so Yes, they will vote in 2015 since any laws passed in late 2015 / early 2016 will affect them.

          However, all Scottish MPs will be out of a job in March 2016 (which kind of explains their motivations in opposing independence). I think it’s fairly certain that we will have a tory-led coalition in Westminster (given no opposition party has won without a 20 point lead at mid-term which Labour failed to achieve). In this case, no problem. If it’s a narrow Labour majority, then you may need new elections.

          I should point out though, only twice since 1945 have Scottish votes made any difference to the outcome of a General Election.

          • Michael Mckeown

            I’m wondering when Westminster announced it was clearing its calender to legislate for independence on the 24th of March?

          • Ronald Anderson

            Ah would,nt worry about that UK election it will be SNP MPs, then they will come back to Scotland after Independence

      • Alex

        Fracking would be a boon to the Scottish Economy. Its called an Oil industry for a reason and Aberdeen is choc-a-block with companies dedicated to it. They don’t just lift the stuff out the ground in buckets.

    • CameronB

      It certainly won’t be pleasant when England looses Scotland’s positive balance of payments. England (rumpUK), will only be able to honor her rampant national debt with even deeper austerity. Or a change of approach, away from the one party system .that is Westminster.

      Good luck.

      • Nicholas chuzzlewit

        Good luck with Royal Bank of Scotland and your share of the national debt. By the way, what do you propose to use for money?

        • CameronB

          Apparently you are unaware that Scotland is not legally responsible for the RBS debt. It would be quite strange if it was, as it was the light-touch regulation of the City that was largely responsible for the debacle in the first place, and it was Westminster and the US Fed. that were allegedly providing oversight. The bulk of the debt is held in America.

          I think it would be better for all, if Scotland were to share the pound. At least until we are up and running. After all, what would happen to sterling if it lost the support of North See oil receipts. Perhaps this is why Mark Carney is talking with our First Minister, to try and agree on the institutional infrastructure that will be required.

          • Nicholas chuzzlewit

            I do not need reminding by you of anything pertaining to the banking industry and am fully aware of where responsibility for the incubus of RBS lies. It has absolutely nothing to do with ‘light touch’ regulation and everything to do with ineffective regulation.

            • Paul Wilson

              Well you have just answered your own question haven’t you.

        • Leigh Douglas

          Funny how RBS becomes a Scottish bank all of a sudden after it collapsed, and there is a prospect of Independence becoming reality. I remember Blair and Brown calling it the jewel in the crown of UK financial innovation.
          However, Scotland has a minimal, if any, responsibility for the RBS bailout. RBS moved its trading and financial activity down to London, the debt was managed by the UK Government through the bailout. Legally, rUK would be liable for the RBS debt, as all debt must be honoured in the centre in which it was accumulated, i.e. London. So this argument is an old, tired one that has been comprehensively demolished many times.

          • Alex

            Hey. Don’t waste your time arguing.. Let the ignorant believe what they want if they don’t have a vote. Problem is there are folk in Scotland that still believe these myths.

            • Nicholas chuzzlewit

              You mean myths like RBS being registered in Scotland (36,St Andrews’s Square) under Scottish law thereby making it a Scottish Company. You might like to familiarise yourself with the RBS report and accounts. Iain Martin’s masterful book on the rise and fall of RBS is also well worth reading although there is a complete absence of convenient ‘myths’.

          • Michael Mckeown

            So you got no issue then with Westminster using its majority share in HBOS and RBOS to move the head offices and support centers south taking thousands of jobs and potentially billions in corporation tax with it or would that be ‘anti Scottish’?

          • Nicholas chuzzlewit

            So that big headquarters at Gogaburn and that Scottish executive was all a mirage.

            • Leigh Douglas

              No, the Edinburgh headquarters is primarily for administration, the majority of its trading activity occurred in London. That is a fact I’m afraid.

              • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                The board and executive of the bank were primarily Scottish and they directed and approved trading activities and acquisitions such as ABN Amro. That is a fact I am afraid.

                • Leigh Douglas

                  Utter rubbish. You don’t seem to understand, that Scotland and its government has no control over the banking sector, or 85% of the economy. That fact remains, that RBS accumulated its debt in London, as the UK government is responsible for the economy, it will be the UK government that is liable for the costs of that bailout.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  The Westminster parliament will dictate the terms of separation and you will get what you are given. It is naive in the extreme to believe otherwise.

                • Jeanne Tomlin

                  Westminster will ‘dictate’ nothing with another independent nation.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  Oh yes it will. You might vote yes but then the negotiations begin on the terms of separation and that happens at Westminster. Like I said, you will get what you are given by a Parliament in no mood to grant Salmond anything more than they are prepared to give him. Mark Carney said only yesterday that you will have to cede sovereignty in order to participate in a Sterling area. Or did you think Scotland would dictate monetary policy to the UK? You poor deluded idiot. This all assumes, of course, that you get a yes vote and not every Scot is as deluded as the likes of you.

                • Jeanne Tomlin

                  Which didn’t mean most of the financial activity was in Scotland. It was in London which is where the losses took place under London-made regulation. That is where the debt lies.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  So absolutely nothing to do with the Scottish chief executive, Scottish chairman, largely Scottish directorate and largely Scottish senior management. Besides, this is a ‘British’ institution and why should it be that only ‘British’ people living in England, Wales and Northern Ireland have to pick up the tab? And no, that does not contradict my own argument because those responsible for making the mess and those people left to pay for it are two different sets of people. Incidentally, the failed regulatory system which saw the first British bank failures in 150 years was instituted by one Gordon Brown who, correct me if Iam wrong, is also Scottish. I suggest you read Iain Martin’s (another Scot) book on the demise of RBS to get a fair picture of where responsibility lies. Finally, this “it all happened in London” rubbish is the most pathetic argument you could possibly mount. London is a place, it is the people who ran RBS who carry the responsibility for the mess. Now be a good ‘cybernat’ and get lost.

                • Jeanne Tomlin

                  Rant all you like. The legal responsibility lies where the transactions took place which was London. London was also where the regulations were made. The debt is not Scotland’s as much as you want it to be. Gordon Brown is a Scot but the parliament that set those regulations has 90% English MPs in it who passed them. Brown didn’t do that all by his lonesome.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  I think you need to familiarise yourself with the annual report and accounts of the RBS Group. It is ‘Headquartered’ at Gogaburn in Scotland and its registered office (now for the thick and deluded amongst you, this is an important address) is 36 St Andrews Square Edinburgh. The company is registered in Scotland under Scottish Law. It is a Scottish Company which was led and managed by a Scottish Executive, Scottish Senior management and a largely Scottish Board up to the point where disaster struck in 2008. The suggestion that all transactions took place in London is so risible and ignorant it barely deserves a reply but here goes. It is not the mechanical delivery of transactions that matter it is their approval. That approval came from a Scottish Execurtive of a Scottish registered bank. Similarly, the strategy enabling transactions taking place out of New York etc were approved by the Scottish executive of a Scottish registered bank.

                • Jeanne Tomlin

                  The problem is that financial law is a reserved matter. Being ‘registered’ under Scottish law is irrelevant. The regulations under which RBS operated were made by Westminster.

                  And the US didn’t think that where the delivery of transactions took place. That is why the US helped bail out RBS–with US funds, because a substantial percentage took place in the US. But since you know more about banking regulations than the US government, you might want to run and tell them they were wrong.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  I think you have a bigger problem convincing Mr Carney than you do with me. He pointed out that Scotland’s banking sector was 12.5 times the size of Scotland’s economy and that the commensurate figure for England was 4.3. So what does that tell you about where Ongoing responsibility for RBS lies.That was just after he told Bonnie Prince Bull***t (Salmond) that Scotland would have to cede considerable fiscal and monetary sovereignty should it wish to join a Sterling zone. He dumped an awful lot more cold water on you but you get the drift. Assuming of course you are allowed to join a Sterling zone and the man from the treasury (yesterday as well) he say no. Time for ‘plan B’I think and you need to persuade Mr Carney not me. Your latest effort by the way was really desperate stuff. Oh his address is BOE, Threadneedle Street, London, England. Good luck.

                • Jeanne Tomlin

                  LOL What he said was that if the SG and WM agreed on a Sterling Zone that the BoE would implement it.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  And the man from the UK treasury said FO. Now that made me laugh. As I said plan B. In any event, what kind of independence is it when you cede fiscal and monetary sovereignty to a foreign country. Surely you are not so deluded as to believe that monetary policy will be conducted primarily for the benefit of Scotland and not the 52 million people in the UK.

                • Jeanne Tomlin

                  Any amount of independence is more independence than we have NOW. We f’ing won’t pay for your Tridents or your HS2 or rebuilding your Westminster or billions for useless Lords in Europe’s least democratic institution. Thank you very much.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  Now who is ranting. Desperate stuff. Happy to take back our nuclear submarines etc. Incidentally, do you plan to join NATO? Surely not, that would involve relying on the nuclear deterrent and armed forces of England etc. or is that another one of those things that will happen automatically like joining the EU? By the way, once you start swearing and using capital letters (oh and it’s ballot not ballet) the argument is irrecoverably lost. Talking of losing, what will you do if there is a No vote? Sulk I suppose.

                • Jeanne Tomlin

                  I’ll worry about a No vote if it happens. Yes, I’m aware I made a typo–neither my first nor, one assumes, my last. When you’re reduced to pointing out typos, that is when the argument is irrecoverably lost. Some things can only be expressed with a good obscenity. I don’t hesitate to use it when called for.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  So foul language and no plan B. I pity you.

                • Jeanne Tomlin

                  It’s too bad that a single word upsets you so. You have my sympathy. As for a plan B, I suggest you talk to Westminster which refuses to make one in case of a Yes vote–or so they say.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  Up to you to come up with plan B. I am indifferent either way and could care less if Scotland stays or goes unless leaving has a negative impact on the bond market. Carney has done Westminster’s job for them.

                • terregles2

                  Monetary policy will not be conducted primarily for the benefit of Scotland. No change there then.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  No you hypocritical idiot it is currently conducted on behalf of the UK.

                • terregles2

                  That was hardly the response of an English gentleman. You are so rude and boorish.
                  Remember rudeness is a poor imitation of strength.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  Whatever, you remain a hypocritical idiot.

          • Michele Keighley

            I believe it was Alec Salmond that called RBS the jewel in the crown of Scottish Banking, and of course he should know, he worked for them, didn’t he.

            • Leigh Douglas

              Blair and Brown especially, trumpeted RBS success as it ballooned in size and gambling with peoples money. Yes Alex Salmond worked for them, but he wasn;t the one that could have introduced proper regulation to stop RBS from going under.

              • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                Yes he recommended that RBS take over ABN Amro “for Scotland”. That is a matter of public record although clearly truth and honesty do not figure very highly with the SNP and it’s cybernats.

                • Leigh Douglas

                  Whats your point? We all know he supported that take over, but he wasn’t the regulator was he?
                  And I am no cybernat, nor a member of the SNP, thank you.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  No but you are incredibly thick. RBS is registered in Scotland under Scottish law and that makes it a Scottish company. A failed regulatory system can be blamed for failing to identify bad practice and risk management but it cannot be blamed for the choices freely made by the Banks Executive, its Board and Senior management. Strategic and risk decisions were made by a Scottish Executive on behalf of a Scottish Company the fact that the mechanical side of some transactions occurred in London is not relevant to the question of residence of the business. By your logic, (transaction executed in London = responsibility of English citizens) the $billions of transactions contracted by the RBS Group out of New York are the responsibility of US citizens. Well the best of luck arguing that one.

                • Alex
                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  That is true although, to the best of my knowledge, it did not involve an equity stake from the US Government. It probably does not suit the narrative but RBS is, quite naturally, a hotter topic, in the context of possible Scottish independence.

                • Leigh Douglas

                  Provide your evidence for this, then I will concede I am thick and admit I made a mistake.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  Read the annual report and accounts you idiot.

                • Leigh Douglas

                  Okay lets give you some facts.

                  The banks were wholly regulated from London. They were only allowed to change the way they lend money by the Westminster Parliament who were following the neo-classical economic strategy of little or seemingly no regulation, and a no limits on lending strategy as long as the loan is secured against an asset. The joint architect of this economic strategy that helped to collapse the global economy was Alistair Darling now the leader of the ‘No’ campaign.

                  90% of RBS and HBoS UK employees were based in out-with Scotland so 90% of employers income tax was paid to Westminster, and not counted as Scottish or Scottish Government revenue.

                  Likewise 90% of the banks national insurance contributions were paid to Westminster and not counted as Scottish.

                  80% of the losses of RBS for example were generated from the banks London based operations.

                  As with all companies corporation tax is not considered regional and therefore the corporation tax paid by the banks is not considered to be a Scottish Government revenue, it is all paid directly to Westminster. Note: RBS paid £16 billion in corporate taxes from 1998 to 2007, NONE (note the emphasis) of this was counted as Scottish Government revenue.

                  And I invite you mull over this quote by Andrew Hughes Hallett, Professor of Economics at St Andrew’s University (a very distinguished commentator on economic affairs) and its worth providing in full.
                  “The real point here, and this is the real point, is by international convention, when banks which operate in more than one country get into these sorts of conditions, the bailout is shared in proportion to the area of activities of those banks, and therefore it’s shared between several countries.

                  In the case of the RBS, I’m not sure of the exact numbers, but roughly speaking 90% of its operations are in England and 10% are in Scotland, the result being, by that convention, therefore, that the rest of the UK would have to carry 90% of the liabilities of RBS and Scotland 10%.

                  And the precedent for this, if you want to go into the details, are the Fortis Bank and the Dexia Bank, two banks which were shared between France, Belgium and the Netherlands, at the same time were bailed out in proportion by France, Belgium and the Netherlands.”
                  Now, that utter tosh you said above is exactly that, tosh.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  Hilarious. You quote a professor I have never heard of from surprise, surprise, a Scottish university and I am supposed to take it as Gospel and the final word. Laughable. Mr Carney described the Scottish banking sector as being 12.5 times the size of the Scottish economy (England 4.3 times). Now that is somebody worth listening to particularly when supported by the UK treasury. RBS was a Scottish screw up from start to finish and you will carry the cost. Glad I made you waste your time writing all that meaningless crap though.

                • Leigh Douglas

                  Oh and also, RBS was bailed out by the US Federal Reserve and the Australian central bank. So the citizens of those nations have had to bear the cost of the massive bailout. US = £258bn. Based on the size of its activities in those nations. Also 80% of its losses were made in its investment division in London.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  Under Scottish management and direction. But you keep on dreaming.

                • Leigh Douglas

                  Here is some facts for you aswell.

                  The banks were wholly regulated from London. They were only allowed to change the way they lend money by the Westminster Parliament who were following the neo-classical economic strategy of little or seemingly no regulation, and a no limits on lending strategy as long as the loan is secured against an asset. The joint architect of this economic strategy that helped to collapse the global economy was Alistair Darling now the leader of the ‘No’ campaign.

                  90% of RBS and HBoS UK employees were based in out-with Scotland so 90% of employers income tax was paid to Westminster, and not counted as Scottish or Scottish Government revenue.

                  Likewise 90% of the banks national insurance contributions were paid to Westminster and not counted as Scottish.

                  80% of the losses of RBS for example were generated from the banks London based operations.

                  As with all companies corporation tax is not considered regional and therefore the corporation tax paid by the banks is not considered to be a Scottish Government revenue, it is all paid directly to Westminster. Note: RBS paid £16 billion in corporate taxes from 1998 to 2007, none of this was counted as Scottish Government revenue.

                  Also lets just look at what Andrew Hughes Hallett, Professor of Economics at St Andrew’s University, had to say.
                  “The real point here, and this is the real point, is by international convention, when banks which operate in more than one country get into these sorts of conditions, the bailout is shared in proportion to the area of activities of those banks, and therefore it’s shared between several countries.

                  In the case of the RBS, I’m not sure of the exact numbers, but roughly speaking 90% of its operations are in England and 10% are in Scotland, the result being, by that convention, therefore, that the rest of the UK would have to carry 90% of the liabilities of RBS and Scotland 10%.

                  And the precedent for this, if you want to go into the details, are the Fortis Bank and the Dexia Bank, two banks which were shared between France, Belgium and the Netherlands, at the same time were bailed out in proportion by France, Belgium and the Netherlands.”
                  It doesn’t matter if it was under Scottish or Martian management, rUK will have about 90% liability for debt and Scotland will have 10% debt liability. Simple. Enjoy.

            • Jeanne Tomlin

              Since you can’t even spell his name right, I rather doubt you can accurately quote anything the man has ever said.

        • Ronald Anderson

          Nicholas, way , way, behind the time,s try & keep pace with events, ah think Butlin,s will be making a come back in England, we Scots will be suning ourselve,s, on the beaches of Spain /Algarve, I,ll need to subsidize my neice,s Nephew,s & Brother,s in England with food parcel,s, but there again I will be able to afford it

          • Nicholas chuzzlewit

            You clearly have problems with apostrophes. The thought of all that white flesh burning on the Algarve is quite revolting. More importantly, blending wit, sarcasm and sanctimony requires erudition, deftness and education. Qualities which are clearly in short supply with your good self. Oh and I could buy and sell you with pocket change.

            • Ronald Anderson

              Nicholas, very perseptive of you,you another wan wie crystal baws, Ive bought & sold for most of my life,have you run a credit check on me, BMW got abig suprize last year to, knock yersel oot.pocket money indeed.

              • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                You poor sad little man boasting about BMWs. Like I said, your just pocket change.

          • Michele Keighley

            And I bet you are the first to complain about anti-Scottish comments – while spewing out this rubbish.

            • Maidmarrion

              Don’t see any anti English comment in Ronnie’s contribution and since you know nothing about him personally , I would ‘nt
              make daft wee sniping comments if I were you.

              What do you think of Lady Ding Dongs comment?

              It’s a wee stunner is it no??

            • Nicholas chuzzlewit

              Hypocrisy is par for the course witch ‘cybernats’.

        • Paul Wilson

          There is no share of the National debt Scotland is not legally bound by it. No sterling zone no debt simples.

          • Nicholas chuzzlewit

            You poor naive little man. You think that 8 million Scots will dictate to 52 million UK citizens. You really have been listening to voices on your head.

            • Paul Wilson

              There are just over 5 million Scots you fool away back to your public school and butt out whether we vote yes or not it has got nothing to do with you twizzle head you don’t get a vote.

              • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                As if I care how many of you there are you pointless little man. The fact remains that the few of you will not dictate to the many of us. Mr Carney rather rained upon your parade yesterday with all that ceding of sovereignty stuff and the man from the treasure said no on the question of Scotland joining a Sterling zone. Plan B for you I think.

                • Paul Wilson

                  At least I have a vote which makes me a little bit more important than you. Mr Carney rained on nobody’s parade. for a man that tries to make out he is intelligent you sure are doing your best to make out the opposite now go away you useless little troll. We will vote Yes and it is thanks to clowns like you.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  But what will you do if there is a No vote? Or do you claim to know the voting intentions of every voter in Scotland? I merely pointed out that the UK Treasury has said no to an independent Scotland joining a Sterling zone. It is no good a semi-literate troll like you shooting the messenger.

                • Paul Wilson

                  So you now claim to know how we will vote even though you don’t live up here. Let me help you here, it is called politics of course they have to say that it is a shot across the bows. Westminster still thinks it is dealing with the SNP from 30 years ago not the one of today who have experience of being in government with a finance minister of real talent in John Swinney. I know you don’t want to believe it but what do you think is keeping the markets from ditching the pound? That’s right the projected billions from the North sea. Are you aware that Westminster’s debt is bigger than Spain, Greece and Ireland put together that is the seriousness of the situation of course Scotland will be let into a Sterling zone Westminster has no choice. This isn’t a war here all Scotland wants if a yes vote is achieved is the ability to run our own affairs for ourselves the Westminster model isn’t working.I don’t want to see any parts of this isle impoverished that isn’t the aim but the facts are many Scots see Scotland as a country and not a region.

      • Michael Mckeown

        How does a ‘positive balance of payments’ occur when according to the SNP’s own figures Scotland runs a 3.4 billion a year deficit?

        http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/03/1859

        • Neil MacKenzie

          So without North Sea revenue Scotland (8.3% of population) contributes 8.2% of revenue to UK? Seems about right, but when we take into account oil revenues it positively changes our contribution and if oil is removed from Westminster’s revenues, it has the opposite effect.

          http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/03/1859

          The aim of GERS is to enhance public understanding of fiscal issues in Scotland. It estimates the contribution of revenue raised in Scotland towards the goods and services provided for the benefit of Scotland. The estimates in this publication are consistent with the UK Public Sector Finance Statistics for January 2013, published in February 2013.

          The key results for 2011-12 are as follows:

          In 2011-12, total Scottish non-North Sea public sector revenue was estimated at £46.3 billion, (8.2% of total UK non-North Sea revenue). Including a per capita share of North Sea revenue, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at £47.2 billion (8.2% of UK total public sector revenue). When an illustrative geographical share of North Sea revenue is included, total Scottish public sector revenue was estimated at £56.9 billion (9.9% of UK total public sector revenue).

          In 2011-12, total public sector expenditure for the benefit of Scotland by the UK Government, Scottish Government and all other parts of the public sector, plus a per capita share of UK debt interest payments, was £64.5 billion. This is equivalent to 9.3% of total UK public sector expenditure.

          In 2011-12, the estimated current budget balance for the public sector in Scotland was a deficit of £14.0 billion (11.2% of GDP) excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £13.0 billion (10.2% of GDP) including a per capita share of North Sea revenue or a deficit of £3.4 billion (2.3% of GDP) including an illustrative geographical share of North Sea revenue.

          In 2011-12, the UK as a whole ran a current budget deficit, including 100 per cent of North Sea revenue, of £92.3 billion (6.0% of GDP).

          In 2011-12, Scotland’s estimated net fiscal balance was a deficit of £18.2 billion (14.6% of GDP) when excluding North Sea revenue, a deficit of £17.2 billion (13.5% of GDP) when including a per capita share of North Sea revenue or a deficit of £7.6 billion (5.0% of GDP) when a geographical share of North Sea revenue is included.

          In 2011-12, the equivalent UK position including 100 per cent of North Sea revenue, referred to in the UK Public Sector Accounts as ‘net borrowing’, was a deficit of £121.0 billion (or 7.9% of GDP).

          • Michael Mckeown

            The question was “How does a ‘positive balance of payments’ occur when according to the SNP’s own figures Scotland runs a 3.4 billion a year deficit” so how does a negative number make a positive one?

            Why do all the separatists think spending and taxes are the same total amount?

            • Neil MacKenzie

              “They” don’t.

              The borrowing being done by Westminster (deficit) on behalf of Scotland is a far smaller than our population share of the national debt being attributed to us. With independence we will have the levers to grow our economy by means other than inflating house prices in London.

              When the electorate in rUK see what a success we make of independence it will surely lead to unrest and a better democratic settlement for the regions. That is my hope for our dear neighbours.

              • Michael Mckeown

                Even in your hypothetical scenario you still do not show how Scotland running a deficit means Scotland would be positive for the UK’;s balance of payments.

                • Neil MacKenzie

                  What hypothetical scenario is that?

                • Michael Mckeown

                  The scenario of “When the electorate in rUK see what a success we make of independence it will surely lead to unrest and a better democratic settlement for the regions”, how could you not know that since you typed it above?

                • Neil MacKenzie

                  Yes I did but why would it relate to rUK’s balance of payments?
                  My concern is Scotland’s economy, social justice and democratic arrangements not rUK’s.
                  My hope is that when your electorate see how popular social democracy works in Scotland that it will lead to a federal arrangement and devolved powers to the regions.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Thats the question I asked, why would it relate to the UK’s balance of payments?

                  ‘My electorate’ is the same as yours.

                • Neil MacKenzie

                  It doesn’t, if you’d read my first reply you’d see that both rUK and Scotland run a deficit but I suspect you already know that. With Independence we can change our own fortunes and futures.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  OK it doesn’t so now you just need to read CameronB’s post to see why the question was reliant.

                • Jeanne Tomlin

                  When Westminster stops running a huge deficit maybe we’ll be impressed by your concern that Scotland might run a small one.

                • Michael Mckeown

                  Westminster are starting to fix the problem it is the separatists that are in denial about the issue.

    • Malcolm Wadia

      Ignorance is all well and good but I prefer facts. From GERS, Scotland’s accounts:

      Spending per head in Scotland is £1200 higher than the UK (mostly due to services still nationalised – NHS Scotland and Scottish Water) but income per head is £1700 higher or to put it another way, Scotland represents 8.4% of UK population, 9.3% expenditure and 9.9% income. These numbers include a share of all UK expenditure (defence, debt interest, nuclear weapons and London Olympics).

      Overall, Public expenditure in Scotland is 42.7% GDP compared to 45.5% in the UK due to a 18% higher GDP/head in Scotland.

      Scotland has a budget deficit of 5% GDP compared to 7.9% for the UK as a whole.

      Historically, over the past 30 years (the period for which detailed data has been published), Scotland has run up £54bn of debt (about 4.5% of the UK’s £1.2tn debt) but over that period has made £64bn of interest payments servicing UK debt (a direct subsidy to rUK).

      I could go on but I think you get the picture.

    • mdj

      Last year a friend was fund-raising for a project in Scotland, which involved negotiating with a large number of well- established Scottish companies – what you might call their ‘Mittelstand’. They all had well-developed plans to move their HQ’s south in the event of a Yes vote.

    • AndrewMelville

      It is Inglish nyaffs such as yourself that give the independence side its momentum.

      • Michele Keighley

        … and idiots like Ronald Anderson who keep who us hoping you actually find the courage to go.

        • AndrewMelville

          Who is he?

          I’m torn. I think independence would be good for Scotland – culturally, I’m not motivated by the sums, although I think it would be a little better off. Great Britain is too imbalanced by England, and latterly by London.

          However, I like being British too and value most of what Britain is.

          The vile anti Scottish attitudes of some Inglish ( very prevalent among Speccie readers, sadly) make it hard to remember How wonderful it is to be British.

    • terregles2

      Oh dear bitter together. I am looking forward to a YES vote but unlike yourself I do not have any ill will towards anyone else in the remainder of the UK.
      I hope that Scotland and England Wales and Northern Ireland will all prosper in the future and all have more democratic governments..
      I have many family and friends in England and I know that you do not speak for most English people with those nasty remarks.

      • Paul Wilson

        Terregles at last someone who isn’t nasty most Scots feel the same way about the Rest of the UK we are not hordes planning an invasion we just want to run our country our way. No more no less.

        • terregles2

          Thank you Paul. I have never ever said anything nasty about any English people I never would. I have criticised Westminster government nothing else. The torrent of abuse I have had calling me all sorts of names and accusing me of being anti English is out or order. I have stopped posting anything now which I suppose was their intention.

    • Suriani

      There would not be a United Kingdom left to make “fit for the future”. It goes when we go. Find another name..

      • Ronald Anderson

        Disunited when the English / Welsh / NI, people,s, wake up & revolt againt Westminster lies deceit, now I dont want to see River,s of Blood,now who saaid that um, a ENGLISH man, THORPE.

    • sfin

      Totally agree with this…I feel genuine pity my Scottish kin, who are fashioned from the same steel as those who ran, and invented for the Empire…Unfortunately a, once great nation, has spent too long in the arms of socialism – and infected us all with it – giving us socialist governments out of all proportion to their numbers.

      Time to let them float away and create their “paradise”.

      • Nicholas chuzzlewit

        Very brave and honest reply. Good luck with the onslaught which will now follow from ‘cybernats’ like terreglas, asalord, jambo etc etc. they will not like this at all.

        • sfin

          Thank you – but I shall defer the ‘luck’ – their debating skills are not a patch on their forebears – and their hero, the spiv Salmond, is probably the first political leader, after Blair, that I would feel confident in taking apart in serious debate.

          ‘Serious debate’ is probably not forthcoming, I will grant you – although, even terreglas is capable of it when she thinks before posting…

          • Nicholas chuzzlewit

            Terregles has a first class degree in hypocrisy and sanctimony.

            • sfin

              Yes, she does come on here to “troll” sometimes – the mistake, I believe, is responding in kind. If you calmly, ask, specific, questions regarding their posts – you can discriminate between the mindless (ignore) and the professional ‘troller’. Terreglas is in the latter category – she likes to provoke (no bad thing?) – but bring the debate to a rational level, with intelligent questioning – and she is capable of contributing to serious debate.

              • terregles2

                Is everyone classed a troll who intends to vote for Scottish independence. if some find my wish for independence provoking then that suggests that they are anti democratic..
                Please do ask me any intelligent question that you like. I will be happy to answer any intelligent question.
                You cannot just accuse everyone of being a troll simply because they do not share your opinion. Please ask me an intelligent question.
                Perhaps while you are thinking of one you could answer an intelligent question that I asked Mr.Chuzzlewit that he has refused to answer.
                Why is it that when I criticised some policies of my British Westminster government I was accused of being anti English.? Does Westminster not represent all of us in the UK.
                Why would some see anti Westminster government remarks as anti English.?
                I look forward to your calm rational intelligent response.

                • sfin

                  Haaay! I knew I’d drag you out with that one! How’s it going? Ready for some debate?

                  OK – I totally agree with your standpoint on the shortcomings of ‘Westminster Government’ – I loathe the same – but do you honestly think that ‘wee eck’ is going to provide you something more ‘autonomous’ – the guy is a political spiv to his socks! He wants Scottish ‘independence’, he then wants to be the laird of the european region (lack of capitals, is deliberate) called scotland – how much ‘freer’ is that going to make you? – your political, economic and cultural policies decided in Brussels? – at least the English can make a decent fist of ordering a pint in Inverness – and can nod appreciatively as we’re getting our heads kicked in whilst doing so! Unlike the EU, who are, very quickly, going to send in an army to quell such insurrection …
                  Ideology is all well and good…but reality wins 100% of the time.

                • terregles2

                  You really haven’t dragged me out as I have not been away. I will not comment on Alex Salmond as I am not an SNP voter although I will be voting YES to independence . We don’t really know which political party will win the first Scottish general election it may or may not be the SNP. Alex Salmond is one man he will not decide independence it will be decided by all the people living in Scotland.
                  ” As we are getting out heads kicked in.” I thought you promised you would debate intelligently,calmly and rationally..
                  Interesting that you could not tell me why some Britnats take any criticism of Westminster government as an anti English insult, Also interesting that you cannot present any convinding argument for Scotland continuing to pass the running of our country to the Westminster government.

                • Kitty MLB

                  I am glad you will be voting yes.
                  We will be free of the moaning , as well as expensive Scots, and you can have all the
                  Annoying Labour Scottish Mp’s back too.
                  Although what will you do, join the euro,
                  they may have something to say about that –
                  well Spain already has!!
                  Also what about your military, you cannot have
                  ours, and last of all if it does not work out,
                  in the land of milk and honey can we have a vote ?v

                • terregles2

                  I am glad Kitty that you are also in favour of Scottish independence. It is good to know that we have support from England.
                  I am sure that we will both go on and build better more democratic countries.
                  You musn’t worry about what will happen to Scotland after independence we will be just fine no worries.
                  Long live an independent Scotland and long live an independent England.

                • Kitty MLB

                  Prehaps we should build another wall
                  to keep out all the painted faced savages
                  as Caesar called you 🙂

                • terregles2

                  Best not Kitty you might see too much with the boys climbing the wall in their kilts.

                • Kitty MLB

                  That’s the issue with boys, whether it be mountains,
                  a tree or a wall, they must climb them.
                  As for kilts, chaps always look very dashing in them,
                  although they must freeze to death. Anywhere that close to the north sea is not suitable for bare knees.

                • terregles2

                  Their bare knees are the least of it. Especially depending on whether they were advancing or retreating over the wall.

                • Nicholas chuzzlewit

                  No only people like you who pollute these threads with your sanctimony and hypocrisy. You tell her sfin!

                • terregles2

                  Nicholas you must stop being bitter just becasue I asked you a question that you were unable to answer. Do you think if you attack me and encourage sfin to do the same that nobody will notice neither of you could answer the question.
                  Calling me sanctimonious and hypocritical is not answering the question that I asked.
                  I asked you why you deem any criticism of the Westminster government to be anti English abuse.?
                  Your nasty name calling is not comme il faut for an English gentleman.

    • Ronald Anderson

      ladydingaling, I hope you realise, that we take all our money with us, my Family members in England, will be receiving big food parsel,s from me.

    • Paul Wilson

      I think the population shift will be the other way People from the south coming north to escape the economic wasteland that is Tory Englandshire.

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