Coffee House

Now Margaret Thatcher is being drawn into the Scottish independence debate

5 January 2014

2:45 PM

5 January 2014

2:45 PM

It may be more than 23 years since she last held office but the late Baroness Thatcher has now been drawn into the battle over Scottish independence – by the Nationalists.

In fact, the real surprise is not that Alex Salmond has decided to invoke the legacy of Thatcher in his crusade to break up Britain, but that he has taken so long to do so. Lady Thatcher has long been seen by the SNP as the perfect recruiting tool for Scottish nationalism. They have always liked to portray her as a public sector-slashing, industry-destroying, remote, anti-Scottish Tory.

So when papers emerged last week under the 30-year rule showing that Lady Thatcher had tried to cut a swathe through the Scottish budget in 1984, the Nationalists seized on it. A spokesman for Mr Salmond described the revelations in the papers as ‘astonishing’, not just because Lady Thatcher tried to cut a massive amount from the Scottish budget but that this was concealed from Scottish voters.

Today the Scottish Government has followed this up with a first-person piece by Mr Salmond in the Scotland on Sunday newspaper, which was published this morning. This not only builds on the SNP’s message from ‘Thatcher papers’ published last week but shows how the Nationalists intend to use Lady Thatcher’s legacy through the campaign.

It also demonstrates clearly how Mr Salmond intends to try to draw David Cameron into the same arc of fire, painting him, not just as the heir to Thatcher, but as someone who is planning to do exactly what his predecessor tried – and failed – to do. This is what Mr Salmond says in Scotland on Sunday:

‘Today, I have written to David Cameron, following last week’s revelations that the Tories hatched a secret plan to cut Scotland’s budget in the 1980s. This confirmed what most Scots already knew – the Tories can’t be trusted with Scotland’s finances.

‘If there is a No vote in September, this is what they would do. Their target is to cut Scotland’s money by £4 billion. Cameron’s 18-month guarantee of just a few weeks ago is blown apart by these revelations. The evidence of the past should be taken as a warning for the future.’

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This is canny yet it is also more than slightly disingenuous. Mr Salmond’s argument seems to be this – a Tory Prime Minister wanted to cut Scotland’s budget 30 years ago so it stands to reason that a Tory Prime Minister today will do exactly the same thing. This may not stand up to any proper scrutiny as a rational argument but it is clearly one that Mr Salmond believes will win him votes.

It suits the Nationalists to invoke the ghost of Thatcher and her legacy because they believe she remains the hate figure in Scotland that she once was. But is that really true?

Among political diehards and those who fought all those battles back in the 1980s, Lady Thatcher is still hated – we saw that in the way that some people on the fringes of politics reacted in such a tasteless and sour way to her death last year. But Mr Salmond has already extended the franchise down to include 16 and 17 year olds for the referendum. This means that there is an increasing proportion of the electorate with no personal recollection of Lady Thatcher as Prime Minister. Really, voters have to be at least 40 years old to really remember what the Thatcher years were like in Scotland.

What this Thatcher tactic does is confirm the increasing prevalent view that Mr Salmond’s strategy for the referendum is now relying on one simple premise – if you don’t like the Tories, vote for independence.

The Thatcher factor is just an extension of that one argument but whether Lady Thatcher still has the power to mobilise Scottish opinion in the way she once did remains open to question.

There is one other interesting aspect of the Government papers on Scotland which emerged last week which has had not quite so much attention from the Nationalists, though. This was the revelation that the Scottish Secretary at the time, Sir George Younger, not only fought the calls for Scotland’s budget to be slashed, but he was largely successful in achieving that.

The papers show that Sir George stood up to his then Prime Minister, argued against the demands that he cut a chunk out of the Scottish budget and succeeded in protecting it, almost in its entirety.

Here was a Conservative Secretary of State, standing up for Scotland and protecting its budget – now that’s not something that Mr Salmond is ever likely to crow about.

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Show comments
  • Darth Smith

    i hated that f inbitch scotland doent need england. english are just pack robbers stealing scottish resources and money f them

  • thecreature

    ” a Conservative Secretary of State, standing up for Scotland and protecting its budget – now that’s not something that Mr Salmond is ever likely to crow about.”

    You can be sure it won’t be – there won’t be another Conservative Secretary of State for Scotland, ever – that role will continue to be given to Libdem frontmen, (despite the fact that during their election campaign they promised to abolish the very post they now fight over) until Scotland gains independence. It will be an interesting sight watching whichever Libdem holds that post negotiate the terms of independence with the Scottish Government after a Yes vote – hmmm, who to be loyal to – the people of Scotland you are supposed to represent, or the Westminster government who gave you your high position – but only for another 18 months? Tough one that. I see the current post holder already has his coat on and made his excuses.

  • Terry Field

    Poor Margaret, being drawn anywhere near Scottieland.
    It should be allowed to disappear into the mist, brigadoon – like.
    Along with its poisonous socialist MPs and Nesbitt-like backers.

  • Eric McLean

    The only disingenuity is in this article itself. You have twisted the intention of Salmond and the SNP, beyond parody.

    From the McCrone report, to the blocking of the papers on devolution, to this recent evidence of Westminster treachery and manipulation… It is hegemony at best.

    What it clearly shows is that Westminster cannot be trusted.

    Salmond is right to remind and alert residents of Scotland that Westminster has a track record of lies and deceit and will continue to work against Scotland’s interests in the event of a ‘NO’ vote.

  • glurk

    Perhaps Margaret will haunt Salmond……

  • dalai guevara

    “This is canny yet it is also more than slightly disingenuous.”

    Of course it is canny but it will work, simply because we know that ‘fear’ always works for some. Now that Darling strategy is played straight back to him.
    By the looks of all this I predict a nine months of utterly brilliant whiff-whaff, amigos. Bring it on.

  • MichtyMe

    Yes it is history and it is no surprise that Thatcher wished to reduce Scotlands funding. However what is revealed in the release of these 30 year old papers is that consideration was given as to how this could be done with the public kept unawares. A wee insight into government operating with dishonest secrecy.

    • itdoesntaddup

      You mean they were looking to see if the money could be spent more cost effectively? How absolutely shocking!

    • jazz606

      “…..Thatcher wished to reduce Scotlands funding…..”

      Whilst at the same time imposing cuts in English expenditure.

      Salmond will draw on any anti-English sentiment that he can to bolster the predudice which is the real driving force behind the YES campaign.

      • terregles2

        YES voters do not hate English people. The SNP have some English people within their party and Many English people living in Scotland are YES campaigners.
        A YES vote is against being governed from Westminster not against English people.
        I have friends in England who say they wish they had the chance to vote against the Westminster system and the undemocratic House of Lords.

  • asalord

    Thatcher [and her policies] deserves credit for boosting the independence movement in Scotland.Cameron is no Thatcher,of course,but he’s doing his best to carry on in similar vein.In political attitude and philosophy both define the fundamental differences between societies in Scotland and England.Whether Cameron finds the nerve to debate with Salmond,or not,these differences will become ever clearer the closer we get to the referendum.

    • Tony_E

      Why would Cameron debate with Salmond? Why should any Englishman – who doesn’t have a vote in Scotland’s independence?

      Salmond is desperate for a bogeyman, and he wants Cameron to be it – a Tory trying to ‘stifle Scotland’. As far as I can see, all it does is prove that Salmond knows he can’t win a majority of his own people with a sentient argument. So he has to find another way.

      I would much rather see an independent Scotland, because it would level the playing field in England against those who use Scots votes to decide English matters. But I somehow doubt I’m going to see that in my lifetime.

  • swatnan

    Leave the poor woman in peace; she’s got enough to deal with.
    The Scots are going to find it pretty difficult to unravdel 300 years of history, and if they do decide to declare UDI then they will have only themselves to blame.

  • Careering Off

    Surely there’s another explanation for this curious history “lesson”? Just suppose that Salmond doesn’t really care if Scotland votes for independence at all, just as long as the “yes” vote is pretty strong? In this case, without any further effort on his part, he secures on a plate “devo max”, ie even more powers to spend public money and so an even stronger position for himself, without the extra accountability which independence would bring. Of course, power isn’t much use without money, preferably arriving on his doorstep with minimal accountability. But this depends on a grateful Westminster – Tory- or Labour- led – desperate to show “magnanimity” by, at the very least, maintaining the Barnett formula intact. What better way to ensure that than by raising the spectre of Lady T?

    • Alexsandr

      after the referendum, we need to ensure the barnett formula is revisited to ensure the non-english part s of the UK only get their fair share, and also sort out the west lothian question. and the numbers of MP’s from the devolved areas.
      I think english MP’s should sit in a grand committee to decide on English matters. They should elect an English main minister to run the england only departments, and appoint ministers for those departments.. we don’t need another set of troughers to sit in an English parliament, the ones we have will do..
      but of course we need the redrawing of constituency boundaries sorting too so parliament reflects reality

      • allymax bruce

        ‘After the referendum’, Scotland will be Independent!

        • Alexsandr

          well I hope so, but I aint betting on it….

    • allymax bruce

      The abuse Westminster dishes out to Scots & Scotland is what you call ‘Devolution’; if you think Scots & Scotland want that abuse ‘maximised’, through Devo-Max, then you’re not really thinking this through properly.

  • Albert Tatlock

    Yes, The Scots Nationalists will do well to remember that they walked into the division lobby with Mrs.Thatchers Conservatives to bring down a socialist government that the Scottish electorate voted for.

    So, whilst they’re arguing about Scotland never getting the government it voted for seems they were happy to defeat one it did and put in the Conservatives to boot.

    It was 18 years before Scotland could ever conceive of devolution never mind independence after that.

    As gentleman Jim Said “…It’s like turkeys voting for Christmas..,” and so it proved.

    • Paul Bethune

      Selective history there Mr Tatlock, unfortunately 1979 brought precious few heroes.

      The SNP abandoned Labour for good reason, they skewed the 1979 referendum, you can thank George Cunningham for his 40% rule.

      • Albert Tatlock

        Not selective at all, it’s what happened, and I have to say it comes as no surprise that the SNP are happy to conveniently ignore the truth.

        The facts are, 11 SNP MP’s walked into the division lobby WITH Margaret Thatcher, and defeated a socialist government that Scotland had help elect. The vote was lost by just one vote. Other notable groups to vote with the Tories that day the DUP, and The Ulster Unionist parties.

        Meanwhile the Welsh nationalists voted with the Government.

        and them’s the facts, Squirm away

        • Paul Bethune

          So Labour didn’t stitch up the 1979 devolution referendum and were completely blameless. Gotcha.

          • Albert Tatlock

            God bless ya Paul, While you’re working on option and supposition, you’re getting beaten to death with the facts. Even the Irish Nationalist abstained rather than vote with Thatcher.

            Let me leave you with the words of the day;

            “We can truly say that once the Leader of the Opposition discovered what the Liberals and the SNP would do, she found the courage of their convictions. So, tonight, the Conservative Party, which wants the Act repealed and opposes even devolution, will march through the Lobby with the SNP, which wants independence for Scotland, and with the Liberals, who want to keep the Act. What a massive display of unsullied principle! The minority parties have walked into a trap. If they win, there will be a general election. I am told that the current joke going around the House is that it is the first time in recorded history that turkeys have been known to vote for an early Christmas.”

            Squirm away.

            • Paul Bethune

              You’re still dodging the reason why Albert.

              • Albert Tatlock

                I have to say it’s typical of the SNP to try to blame their duplicity on someone else rather than take responsibility.

                The SNP should apologise to all those miners, steel workers, ship builders for what they did that day.

                A generation of unemployed lie at the feet of the SNP, and as such the SNP have no moral Authority in this matter.

                • Paul Bethune

                  Duplicity ha! that is rich for someone defending the stance of the 1979 Labour government!

                • Albert Tatlock

                  So just so we’re straight about this; the lazy argument that Scotland never gets the government it votes for is dead, because when it did the SNP were happy to vote it out.

                  Good, another SNP lie buried.

                • Paul Bethune

                  That’s a rather strange analogy. The 1979 Labour Government screwed the population of Scotland, regardless of whether they voted for them. Just because they were voted by a majority (the first in how many decades Albert?) in Scotland meant nothing as it was quite clear like every unionist government – they were not interested in democracy, all they cared about was retention of power.
                  For all of Maggie’s faults, what you see is what you got with her. Labour’s government of 1979 were wolves in sheep clothing to the Scottish electorate.

                • asalord

                  Labour betrayed the people of Scotland with their undemocratic 40% rule in 1979.
                  It’s sickening to hear Labour politicians boosting how they brought about devolution to Scotland in 1997.
                  The people of Scotland brought about devolution – twice! – it was not achieved by a bunch of unionist lapdogs in Westminster.

                • terregles2

                  What has the SNP and the 1980’s history got to do with a vote for independence. This is 2014 it is a vote on self government not a popularity contest for the SNP.

                • jazz606

                  Much as I hate to intrude on private grief.
                  Those miners and steelworkers would have lost their jobs anyway.

                • allymax bruce

                  I think you’ll find it was the trade-Unions that forced the hands of The Conservative government. Like the recent Grangemouth debacle, Labour’s trade unions went well out of their way to ‘destroy’ any good relations between Ineos, and the workforce; I think, (with good reason), it is now the Neo-Liberal mandate to ‘destroy’ ‘Britians’ blue-collar workforce. A Marxist ideal, through Communist means.

                • terregles2

                  Just as well that people who are not happy with the SNP in the 1980’s now have the Scottish Labour for Independence the SSPand Patrick Harvie etc to vote for after they vote YES in September.

    • allymax bruce

      Not so, The SNP ‘walked into the division lobby’ because they saw an opportunity to put pressure on ‘the socialists’ in gaining ‘favour’ for ‘devolution’; and so it happened next ‘socialist government’!
      SNP political opportunism at Westminster, is a merely tool for the greater good of Scottish Indepednence. SNP favoured a ‘rainbow coalition’ with the ‘socialists’ last time out, but Crash Gordon rejected it. Seems The Conservatives are ‘taking’ their’ political opportunism’ now in their evidential want to rid Westminster of approx’ 50 Scottish Labour MP’s!
      Politics, is politics; by any other name; Albert.

  • Daniel Maris

    You need a sub-editor: “since she LAST held office” implies she might do so again!

  • Thomas Hay

    I did not hate Thatcher. The only problem is that Scotland did not vote for her, nor Mr Cameron for that matter. The Telegraph might scoff and tut – but I want Scotland to get the government they vote for – and I want Scotland to be run by the people who live and work in Scotland. Its called democracy,

    • HookesLaw

      You live in Britain. You vote for British governments which give Scotland money to spend in accordance with the Barnett Formula and which before devolution elected a disproportionate number of MPs.
      The complaint should be with us because since devolution there should be fewer MPs proportionately.

      Your argument is inept and hackneyed.

    • Holly

      And in the end they stopped voting Labour as well.
      So I see no problem with Scotland ‘going it alone’.
      The BIG question is..Have the majority of the public up there got the guts to live through half a dozen years of god knows what, while Salmond gets his act together with the nuts & bolts that independence will inevitably throw up?

      No one sane thinks one day we vote and the next day everything is sorted, currency, the Scottish share of the debt, Europe, defence etc.
      Salmond makes it sound so simple, but there are other countries and other leaders involved, which Salmond sort of…erm…airbrushes out of the equation for some strange reason….Maybe he thinks the Scottish public look on him as he does himself….Some kind of Mr Wonderful.

      The Scottish are not as daft…Yet they did elect the bloke who offered them independence. The question for the SNP is, did they vote for the SNP for independence, or were they just as sick of Labour as they were the Conservatives?

      • dalai guevara

        this is precisely why political or even economic arguments matter not in the end. All that matters is how those eligible to vote f e e l.

      • terregles2

        Scots in September are voting on independence not on Alex Salmond. Almost every country in the world has self government why should Scotland be the only country unable to govern ourselves?. There are several parties campaigning on a YES vote and after independence we will have an election and decide what government that we want. That may or may not be the SNP.
        Nobody is suggesting that Scotland will be an instant rich utopia. We will face challenges like every country does. The difference is we will be in control of who we elect to run our country. it makes no sense to pass all your revenue and all the important decisions to the country next door to deal with. If it was a good idea more smaller countries would ask their larger neighbouring country to run their government for them.

    • Tony_E

      And many of us would like to see the same for England.

  • asalord

    “The papers show that Sir George stood up to his then Prime Minister,
    argued against the demands that he cut a chunk out of the Scottish
    budget and succeeded in protecting it, almost in its entirety.”

    Younger was forced to accept a doubling of the cuts targeted at Scotland, with Scotland’s block grant being reduced by £60million over the 1985-88 period.

    • HookesLaw

      Shocking that Scotland should take its share of any af the nation’s public spending cuts. Never mind that Scotland has aleways got more than its fair share of public spending.

      • Paul Bethune

        How does 9.3% of public spending equate to the contribution of 9.9% in public revenue?

      • Alexsandr

        but hooky, they dont believe the barnet formula is unfair to the English.

    • HJ777

      £60m is about £12 per person in Scotland, i.e. next to nothing (even in 1985 money).

    • itdoesntaddup

      So that was a massive £15m per year on average, or less than £3 per head.

  • itdoesntaddup

    The irony?

    Salmond is arguing for a 100% reduction in Westminster spending on Scotland. Isn’t that what independence means?

    • asalord

      Aye.And a 100% reduction of Scotland’s revenues, including Scottish tax-payers’ money, being wasted by Westminster on weapons of mass destruction and illegal war in the Middle East.

      • HookesLaw

        Hopeless. How much will an independent Sacotland’s defence budget cost it?
        Scotland is part of Britain. Scotland elects an enormoius number of MPs to the party that was in government when we quite legally invaded Iraq.

        • Paul Bethune

          £2.5 billion Hookes for a Scottish Defence Budget (p14 Scotland’s Future). That’s £800 million less than the £3.3 billion Scotland currently contributes to the MOD budget yet will still be more than what is currently spent in Scotland (Philip Hammond, statement to the House of Commons – 05/03/2013).

          • HookesLaw

            2.5 billion? You will get nothing for that. Where will you train your officers ? Where will you service your fast jets (assuming you want any); where will they be bought from; how old will they be?

            Norway spends about 4.3 billion. Per capita it spends more on defence than most countries in the world, but then Norway has ambitions to be a bit more than Ruritania. Norway’s budget allocation for equipment procurement alone is half your 2.5 billion. It is planning to buy F35s. Is Scotland? Can Salmond tell us how many ships and planes an independent Scotland will have. How big or how fast will they be?

            Norway has troops serving in Afghanistan.

            Clearly Scottish ‘independence’ means relying on England for its currency its head of state and its defence. And putting in a good word for it with the EU as well.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …yes, and we know you socialist Camerluvvies intend to stay fixed onto the EU, all your referendum lies to the contrary.

            • Paul Bethune

              Wow, I never thought I’d see Norway being used as an argument AGAINST Scottish independence! Norway has the highest defence budget in Europe lol! It also has the privilege of being an independent country for over 100 years and having the time to build up such a defence budget. Norway also has access to the largest pension fund in the world, which it created through the wealth of its oil exports. Coincidentally where is the UK’s massive oil fund?

            • Jambo25

              read the SIPRI figures for defence spending and see exactly what £2.5 to £3 billion per year will get you.

            • terregles2

              Well we will not be going to war with anyone so we will not be too worried about how big or fast our war toys will be.

          • starfish

            The point isn’t what the SNP says it will pay but what it will need to pay to fund the level of armed forces it claims it will resource

            The figures just don’t add up

            Some good analysis on this blog -but it is all unionist project fear propaganda I expect

            http://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.co.uk/

            More academic stuff on RUSI

            Anyway SNP trolls will rubbish it as usual but other regulars may find it interesting, especially the discussions about C2, Joint Enablers, training etc

            It is more complex than the SNP’s white paper would have you believe, especially when you factor in the costs of relocating some chunky bits of defence infrastructure

            • Paul Bethune

              It’s been verified by military experts as a cost effective defence force. What you need to differentiate from is that an independent Scotland will not be looking to project force in the world like the UK Government currently does.

              • starfish

                which ‘military experts’ and which defence cost modelling experts producing, say, a 10 year resource plan? cost effective defined how?

              • itdoesntaddup

                The Scottish government will have to bear the entire cost of military protection for its offshore installations. It’s no use pretending they can simply raise more taxes from oil to cover it – the oil price is the oil price, and if you raise taxes, you’ll simply shut in production – as Osborne found out the hard way.

                • Paul Bethune

                  Military protection aye. Tell me how much military protection there is now to PRIVATELY owned oil rigs?

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Whatever it is, the jocks will have to pay for it.

                  Not to mention, responsible Western nations are obligated to provide something towards anti-piracy efforts off the coast of Ethiopia, etc.

                • Paul Bethune

                  Gin, you forget that as a barbaric, slavering sweaty sock; I am a pirate.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Let me explain something to you, lad. The Londonistan types perfected piracy to a near science, loooooong ago. You jocks best not press your luck here. They might just sub-contract the piracy to some Ethiopian warlords, and lease them dockspace in Newcastle, where they’ve been itching to get back at those Cromwell-loving jocks for going on 4 centuries now.

                • Paul Bethune

                  I don’t know if that was funny in your head, or if you’re genuinely bonkers. Either way, calm down auld dear and have a toffee.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  I’m plenty calm, lad. However, I’d recommend you jocks take that post to heart. There is far more in play here than you imagine, as you frolic about.

                • Paul Bethune

                  Londonistan pirates, Ethiopian warlords, Cromwell-loving jocks – it’s like a story from Abe Simpson and no, not the president ;-). All you’re missing is some cowboys, Nazis and a zombie apocalypse for your senility to resemble some form of parody. Well done auld yin on making those buttons make the screen move. You’re not completely useless.

            • Jambo25

              You can also find RUSI people who will say the exact opposite so snap. Denmark, Austria, Portugal etc seem to have no difficulty providing adequate defence forces for themselves.

          • Terry Field

            You could not stuff a capercaillie for that!!!!

        • Jambo25

          As much as it wants to cost it. That’s the point of independence.

          • Terry Field

            Yippeeeee
            Sod off!!!!

            • Jambo25

              You’re comment says more about you than I ever could.

      • http://atoryblog.blogspot.com Man in a Shed

        Remind me which nationality was the PM, Chancellor at the time ?

        • David Kay

          they were both sweaty socks. This is why england needs to get rid of war mongering scottish socialists.

        • terregles2

          He was British. Better together tell us we are all part of the same country. We are all one big happy UK country all living happily all treated equally and all proud to be British.

      • Terry Field

        You lot would not defend a patch of heather. Losers.

    • Mynas

      Correct. Instead of living off the pocket money England chooses to allow us, we could earn our own way. It would be good for us and for you.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        Yes, it surely would. Unfortunately, it’s never going t0 happen, because the jocks are forever comfortable on the suckling teat of socialist government, and will never give it up.

        • telemachus

          All good socialists want the Union
          Not least because the north of the border MP load is vital for our victory which will give us reasonable government for the next 15 years

          • Andy

            There is no such thing as a ‘good socialist’. All socialists are wicked and evil.

            • telemachus

              In your warped world of the Guillotine and the rope caring and reasonableness must seem wicked

              • Andy

                ‘Caring and reasonableness’ are not terms that can be applied to Fascists like you. As I said there is no such thing as a ‘Good Socialist’. Socialism, by its very nature, is a wicked and evil belief. And it has murdered millions of people, all in the name of ‘caring and reasonableness’. Indeed under the last wicked and evil Labour Government we saw your ‘caring and reasonableness’ in its true light. Just exactly how many people did you lot murder in Mid Staffs ? As I say, wicked and evil.

              • Colonel Mustard

                People in glass houses, etc.

                First, examine what your “caring and reasonableness” is really about. Hint:- the evidence is in your own record of comments here.

                Wicked doesn’t begin to cover it you hypocrite.

              • Terry Field

                HE is nearly correct.
                Socialism is quite profoundly evil.
                But some socialists are not unpleasant, just disconnected from reality.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            The “north of the border MP load” sounds like something you’d find in a baby’s nappy.

            • Daniel Maris

              Hmmm…weird.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …you mean, your socialist nuttery?

            • telemachus

              You refer to the SNP SMP’s

          • terregles2

            The dreadful Blair government were elected with a massive landslide a majority of 179.. Even in 2005 Labour would have had a 43 majority without any Scottish MP’s. If you are waiting for Scotland to deliver a Labour government then numerically it is almost impossible. It is also worth remembering that Labour are now very unpopular in Scotland.

            • Terry Field

              Indeed, insane behaviour can occur anywhere and often does.
              The result of Blair and brown.
              Simple.
              Catastrophe.

        • dalai guevara

          You see, I can tell when you are using reverse psychology and when you aren’t, tovarishch. This is why I voted it up with the right button.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …and speaking of government-teat-suckling socialists…

      • http://atoryblog.blogspot.com Man in a Shed

        Its ironic that the only way to prove to Scots how good a deal they have enjoyed at the expense of poor regions of England is independence. How else to end the chronic dependence that has created the Alec in wonderland socialist dreamworld in Edinburgh.

        However there are wider issues and ties that bind.

        The challenge to Unionists is how can Scotland be made to grow up within the Union?

        • Jambo25

          And yet Scotland has a higher economic participation rate than England. strange that.

          • http://atoryblog.blogspot.com Man in a Shed

            What’s your definition of economic participation and why is it relevant ?

            • Jambo25

              Those involved in work in some way either as employees or as individual business people.

              • http://atoryblog.blogspot.com Man in a Shed

                Are we including the public sector here ?

                • Jambo25

                  Yes.

                • Terry Field

                  The removal of vast numbers of Scottish public sector jobs after a leave vote would show you jus how little your economy actually has of any worth at all.
                  Tragic, but undeniable.
                  I understand there is a new high-tech shortbread biscuit being developed by BAE but they will not put it into production when you leave – they have indicated that the work would be switched to a new Rich Tea and it would be produced ‘somewhere in England’.

                • Jambo25

                  Hate filled drivel.

                • Terry Field

                  No, truthful, and you have no stomach for anything than you socialist syndicalist corporate state Salmondic horror.
                  No hate- but a clear statement of your rock-garden’s future.

                • Jambo25

                  Are you a bit mental; or totally so?

                • Terry Field

                  You just can not cope with someone who is robustly disinterested in the Scottish problem, and does not care if they stay or go, but on balance would prefer to see them go.
                  Do you need to be loved or something.
                  Do you nee to adjust your sporran or something??
                  Wind got up your kilt?
                  Bagpipe a bit saggy today is it?????
                  Dougal wheer’s yon trousers!
                  Le the wind blow high!

                • Jambo25

                  Totally mental then.

                • Terry Field

                  Up your trossocks

                • Sam the man

                  Outside of London And the South East, Scotland has the third highest productivity of all nations and regions of the UK according to the index of GVA from the ONS and even excluding oil Scotland has 99% of UK GDP per head of population, again stats provided by the ONS.

                  Still your Daily Mail copy and paste gibberish is quite amusing, you have a fine career as a host on Talk Sport ahead of you.

                • Terry Field

                  Must you whine on about the size of your productivity willy?
                  I could not care less how ‘productive’ you all are – just go and ‘produce’ on your socialist own!
                  And do it today!
                  PLEASE!
                  (by the way UK productivity is dreadful by international standards so you are a slightly less hopeless little beggar).

                • terregles2

                  It’s a laugh reading a lot of the gibberish and anti Scottish tirades. Jumping with igorance they are.
                  Don’t suppose they would know where to find GERS figures far less understand what they mean.

        • Sam the man

          If you had even the remotest clue about Scottish politics you would know that the SNP have merged the eight historic police and fire services into one force each to save money (something UK governments tried and failed to do in England because they bottled the fight with the police federation and ACPO), merged individual colleges into regional colleges to save money, frozen council tax and want to cut corporation tax, and are heavily criticised for falling numbers of teachers and nurses. Ask your Labour buddies trying to save the Union for you, the SNP may be many things, but socialists they ain’t.

          • http://atoryblog.blogspot.com Man in a Shed

            This is one of the most sinister things the SNP have done. No nation should have just one police force. Alex getting his jackboot in in early before casting of …

            • terregles2

              Jackboot… what a disgusting comment and an insult to all the oppressed people in the world who have been unfortunate enough to suffer the fear and torture under a dictatorship.
              Salmond is a democratically elected politician to suggest otherwise is spurious. It is as offensive as the people who called Thatcher a dictator. Criticise a politician for their policies but anyone talking of jackboots in any western European democracy should think about the people who have suffered and are still suffering under jackboots.
              We might not like people who are elected but that is democracy. Argue against their policies but don’t ever suggest that we cannot vote them out of power.

            • Sam the man

              Labour also were in favour of a single force, The Association of Police Superintendents and eventually ACPOS, the Police Federation, the Tories and 5 out of the 8 forces leaving only the Lib Dems as major opponents. No threat of industrial action or major public outcry after a long consultation period and debate that took at least a year before the Bill was passed. I assume you knew all this and choose to overlook it? Only a total idiot would comment on an issue he knew very little about.

      • Terry Field

        Please DO go and earn-your-way.
        PLEASE!!!!!!!!!
        As soon as you can.
        But look at the map – most of the hydrocarbons are not yours – they are ours!!

        • terregles2

          That must be another of the awful Tony Blair’s policies that you support.He moved the Scottish maritime border up from Berwick to Carnoustie in 1999.
          Of course Westminster has never been known for decency and integrity. Fortunately after independence the oil production in the Firth of Clyde will be free from the Westminster control and management.

          • Terry Field

            I loathe blair but if he did that GREAT!!!!!!
            You lot went bust with the Darian and could not turn down a share of the Empire but since then your wode-ridden dog-in-the-mange bitterness has – thank God – propelled you to independence.
            Its OUR oil.
            It’s YOUR shortbread.
            Losers!!!!!!!

            • terregles2

              You should put your energy into working out how you will balance your export figures when all of the whisky and other Scottish exports that leave from English ports and are counted as English exports can no longer be included in your trading figures.
              If you didn’t know the appalling Blair cheated Scotland out of maritime territory then you really are politically ignorant and should perhaps confine your comments to topics that you understand.
              I realise though you are just on a schoolboy wind up. You gave us a good laugh but probably best if you get back to your homework.
              Hope that you haven’t damaged your !! key

              • Terry Field

                Silly man.
                I gave up on Britain years ago and left, after watching the insane socialist destruction and corruption of a once great nation, and one you sleazy wode-drenched folk battened on to when things were going well and you were stuffed by Darian.

                • terregles2

                  Harris Tweed jackets.. Mmm …that’s another thing you have in common with the awful Blair. In fact you sound a bit like him in some of your rants.

          • Lewis King
  • asalord

    Thatcher,for all her faults,would not have hesitated for a second to go to Scotland to debate with the leader of the SNP on the matter of independence.
    Cameron is gutless.

    • starfish

      No. He senses a pooh trap of immense dimensions

      Why give Salmond even more Tam o’ Shanter shaking opportunity with a sassenach from Eton/

      SNP plans are unravelling as people ask not unreasonable questions about the assumptions behind them and their deliverability

      • dalai guevara

        What assumptions and assertions might those be?
        In Charles Moore’s most recent piece in the DT he has clarified beyond doubt that this precisely applies to both sides. Neither side will publicly clarify anything – because they can’t or because they don’t want to?

  • Curnonsky

    First Salmond will have to convince the public that Cameron has anything at all in common with the Iron Lady.

    Good luck with that.

    • Paul Bethune

      lol they’re both Tories, that’s enough.

      • ButcombeMan

        Are they? Thatcher was,

        Cameron is a pale imitation, gutless, never was Tory, which is why after 50 years of supporting them I will be voting UKIP along with very many other ex Tories. (and anyone else along for the ride).

        I cannot identify, however hard I try, what Cameron really believes in. There IS no discernible Cameronism, just an enormous vacuum.That is why I would agree, he is the heir to Bliar.

        • dalai guevara

          Only Tories will forever lose sleep over your excuses.
          Everyone else will just vote with their feet.

        • HJ777

          I would say that Margaret Thatcher was really more of a Classical Liberal than a Tory. This explains why she wasn’t popular (until she kept winning) with the traditional Tory grandees who rather looked on her with disdain.

          Of course, she changed the Tory party hugely, to the extent that we now think of her as a ‘proper’ Tory. However, Cameron is, I would say, closer to the ‘traditional’ pre-Thatcher Tory party.

          • Jambo25

            Thatcher was not a traditional British/English Conservative in any way. Socially she was liberal and in economic terms she was a fanatical free market liberal. She was an unpleasant ideologue. Just as much as the loonies on the left.

            • HJ777

              Better than being unpleasant and confused like you.

              • Jambo25

                Nice to see you’re engaging with the argument.

                • HJ777

                  What argument? You think calling Margaret Thatcher ‘fanatical’ and an ‘unpleasant ideologue’ constitutes an argument?

                  That explains a lot about your posts.

                • Jambo25

                  No, that constitutes an opinion and one which is widely held in many parts of the UK.

                • HJ777

                  That pretty much sums you up.

                  All opinions and no coherent arguments.

                • Jambo25

                  So you give me your reasoned argument why Thatcher was the greatest thing sliced bread. Noticed you haven’t done that yet. Go ahead: knock yourself out.

                • HJ777

                  I never suggested that she was, so I am hardly likely to present such an argument. That may be why I haven’t done that yet.

                  She made a considerable number of mistakes, but she was not ‘an unpleasant ideologue’ – indeed, in many areas she was rather pragmatic and she was certainly not ‘fanatical’. Broadly speaking she was correct economically despite her government making several serious mistakes (of which I have been critical).

  • Paul Bethune

    Thatcherism lives on through Cameron and Osborne.

    • Holly

      YEAH RIGHT!!

      IF ONLY!

      • Paul Bethune

        All 3 are (were) self serving scum so my point stands.

        • Smithersjones2013

          I think your comment says more about you than anything.

          • Paul Bethune

            Smithers evidently you like destroying industry and reaping tax benefits on the already financially secure. The ‘I’m alright Jack’ types in this country are the reason class and inequality are as prevalent now as they were when Seebohm Rowntree was around. And still you learn nothing.

            • HookesLaw

              You are an ignorant frothing howling at the moon mad bigot. And sick with it.

              • Paul Bethune

                Hit a nerve did I Hookes 🙂

                • Hexhamgeezer

                  You couldn’t hit a cow’s @rse with a banjo.

                • Paul Bethune

                  Managed to get one up yours it seems 🙂

            • HJ777

              Of course, if you had actually looked at the economic record, you would know that industrial output increased substantially under Margaret Thatcher’s (and John Major’s) government. It only stopped growing in 2001 and fell sharply in 2007/8.

              There was record inward investment in Scotland under her government – in the electronics industry, for example

              • Paul Bethune

                Of course HJ777! Maggie never decimated entire communities across the UK. She never used the proceeds of oil exports to give tax breaks to the filthy rich and to cushion the deindustrialisation of manufacturing Britain.
                Of course Silicon Glen absorbed all the fall out from losing the mining and steel industries.
                It must be lovely up there on planet Tory, where the poor are kept together like cattle.

                • HJ777

                  You seem to be a stranger to facts, preferring to invent your own.

                  Manufacturing output increased under Margaret Thatcher:

                  https://timetric.com/index/production-index-manufacturing-sa-monthly-uk-ons/

                  As for the mining and steel industries – they were hugely loss-making and inefficient. This was not a situation that her government created, it was one that it inherited. Do you really think that she should have plundered our national wealth in order to subsidise inefficient loss-making industries? Where would that have got us? Had they not been nationalised and loss-making she would not have had to act to cut their subsidies – which shows they were failures of state socialism.

                  Incidentally, the rate of coal pit closures was more rapid under the preceding Labour government.

                • Holly

                  Oh god, don’t tell him that it’ll do his head in.
                  Facts are never really taken on board by some folks, except when it was Bozo spouting off about how fantastic the financial sector was for coming up with ‘new ways’ to rip people off.

                  Anyone who did not see 2007/08 coming in 2006 were either financial ‘experts’, politicians or journo’s.

                • Paul Bethune

                  Output increased and yet the manufacturing sector as a major component of the economy and society dropped as a whole. You can cherry pick facts but the knock on effects of her polices created the benefit scrounging system we have in place today. Generations on the dole. Unemployment was higher than the great depression, the social impacts of that are still being felt today. But we all know Maggie polarises opinion. To you, she was a champion of neoliberalism, to me she was the enemy of the poor.

                • HJ777

                  Manufacturing output has been decreasing as a percentage of GDP in every advanced economy for decades. However, in absolute terms it increased under Margaret Thatcher’s government as it has in most countries. What was unusual was that under the last Labour government it fell substantially, ending about 10% lower than the level they inherited and, as result, employment fell extremely rapidly.

                  In what way am I ‘cherry-picking’ facts? You are simply ignoring them. You don’t say what you would have done faced with low productivity nationalised industries making huge losses.

                  And what does “society dropped as a whole mean”? It’s just a nonsense statement.

                  I am perfectly prepared to, and have, criticised many of Margaret Thatcher’s policies but the fact is that on the economy she was broadly correct – in contrast to the governments that preceded and followed her. The figures present a very clear picture.

                  In my opinion, big government is the enemy of the poor. The number of people living on less than 40% of median GDP shot up under the last Labour government despite a huge increase in government and welfare spending (and you’ll recall that Brown referred to welfare spending as “the price of Tory failure”).

                • Paul Bethune

                  H, manufacturing output is calculated on the basis of the combined productivity and value added to goods manufactured. Just because things the UK were making sold for more does not mean the size of the sector increased. We all know it had been declining steadily since the fifties. Under Thatcher’s formative years that decline saw a rapid acceleration. That was my original point – the deindustrialisation of manufacturing Britain.
                  And you’re cherry picking facts by saying that because output increased in manufacturing, the sector actually improved under her watch, when the reality is there very little manufacturing in the UK anymore, and she did more to accelerate that than any of her predecessors.
                  The social impact of the deindustrialisation of Britain has been well documented, I am not going to write an essay so will keep it concise. Maggie took the jobs away and did not replace them.

                • HJ777

                  In fact, it is generally reckoned that output grew faster than the raw figures indicate, and employment in manufacturing shrank by less because various non-manufacturing functions are increasingly outsourced.

                  “And you’re cherry picking facts by saying that because output increased in manufacturing, the sector actually improved under her watch, when the reality is there very little manufacturing in the UK anymore, and she did more to accelerate that than any of her predecessors.”

                  No, you are merely making assertions, whereas I am relying on facts. Manufacturing output grew under her government – the decline in output only happened under the last Labour government. When Major left power we had the largest electronics industry in Europe (much of it in Scotland). Output has halved since then. But you are still entirely wrong to assert that there is very little left in the UK any more – there isn’t enough, but there is still a surprisingly large amount – I know this because I work as a consultant to various engineering manufacturing business. There are thousands of small ones through medium ones (eight out of eleven F1 teams, for example) and many large ones all the way up to the big car manufacturers, the aerospace industry (ours is the world;s second largest), etc.. Half our exports are of manufactured goods.

                  You are living in a world of your own prejudices, rather than one of facts.

                  As for ‘Maggie took the jobs away and did not replace them’ – are you really so childish to think that she is responsible for every woe of industry? Was it her fault that the NCB and British Steel were inefficient and losing huge amounts of money? That BL was a basket case? What was she supposed to do – tax everyone else and put other people out of work to prop loss-making industries up?

                • Paul Bethune

                  No assertion, historical data is on my side, manufacturing as a comparable to GDP declined by 5% through the Thatcher years, and from that figure it has declined by a further 6% in the 20 years since. You’re skewing it down to manufacturing output and comparing that as the be all and end all figures to use. Engineering is but one slice of the manufacturing sector! What about heavy industry, what about the manufacturing of raw materials, that was decimated by Thatcher policies and for reasons you have outlined. But she did nothing to encourage economic growth in these communities, she left them to rot.
                  I don’t blame Maggie for everything, but I do blame her for rapid deindustrialisation and having no plan b for those communities affected.

                • allymax bruce

                  So, what you are saying, is, it’s not ok for coal, steel, & ship building industries in Scotland to be ‘loss-making’, but it is ok for ‘the City’ banks in London to be ‘loss-making’?
                  If it is ok for the super-rich to be ‘bailed out’ by the tax-payer, why is it not ok for the super-poor to be ‘bailed out’?
                  What price do you put on profits, at the expense of throwing whole towns, communities, & families into unemployment?
                  Westminster lives in its own little bubble; time for Scotland to be Independent.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …it’s long PAST time, but it’ll never happen, unless you jocks have changed your socialist teat suckling ways recently.

                • terregles2

                  I expect the Margaret Thatcher fan club will even present us with an inspirational reason why this great British patriot chose the tax arrangements that she did for her 12m Belgravia mansion.

                • Holly

                  And under Labour we were all kept together by either debt, benefits or both, while they imported foreign workers they could ensure voted for them, and a dependent underclass who dared not vote for any other party for fear of losing the ‘way of life’ Labour had given them.

                  That is nothing to be proud of, and an apology from Labour IS due.

                • Paul Bethune

                  Holly, seriously I am not a supporter of the red Tories.

                • Holly

                  But Bozo & Balls were as far away from anything you could remotely call Tory.
                  Blair was just the ‘front man’.
                  Underneath it was the same old, buy now pay later, brigade.
                  They didn’t know or care what they spent money on, all they were fussing about was how to get a more useless, not fit to clean toilets, moron into No 10.
                  Without our permission, and the first chance we got, without being called racist, little Englanders, we booted them out!

            • Holly

              So where does Bozo, Balls, Miliband & Co come in to your chart of self serving scum?

              How utterly selfless do you reckon these three artichokes were when it came to re-building Britain….My god they had thirteen years to do something…Anything, but they just sought power for themselves, no matter what the cost, and well and truly ground everything into nothing.

              Whatever you think of Thatcher she was nothing like as self serving as the shambolic, evil, lying, selfish Labour lot who STILL rely on their hatred of anything Tory, just to cover up their own betrayal of the British people during their time in government.

              Labour are lazy bar stewards who find it easier to pull someone/something else down, rather than try to build themselves up. Labour have nothing to say, and even less to offer. And you can guarantee, even if they did they would never be able to do it, because they have proved time and again they are cr@p.
              They are unfit for government.

              • Paul Bethune

                Honestly Holly, I couldn’t care less about Labour, you’re preaching to the converted.

                • Holly

                  Glad to hear it.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      If Salmond is comparing Thatcher with Call Me Dave the muppet, then he’s even dumber than we know.

      • Paul Bethune

        Comparing what? Political ideology or political character? Both are very different and on the latter I would agree, gormless Dave does not have a scratch on the late Lady Thatcher. But both pursue a collective political anecdote to serve the individual and not the community.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …so you’re as dumb as Salmond, then.

          • Paul Bethune

            If you consider Salmond dumb then I will take it as a compliment.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …I don’t doubt you would, judging by your posts.

              • Paul Bethune

                In the future when I am looking to be judged by a bunch of old reactionary self serving dinosaurs, I’ll come looking for you gin 🙂

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …yes, but in order to go looking, you’d have to detach yourself from the suckling teat of socialist government, and that will never happen as we all know.

                • Paul Bethune

                  If by socialist you mean liberal then yes, I like boobies.

                • HJ777

                  Since when were socialists ‘liberal’? Socialism is a collectivist creed and thus cannot be described as ‘liberal’ – it is exactly the opposite.

                • Paul Bethune

                  I am a social democrat that believes in a mixed economy, is that too hard for your little black and white mind to fathom?

                • HJ777

                  You’re a polite chap, aren’t you?

                  I didn’t comment or speculate on what you are – but you equated being socialist with being liberal, which is incorrect. Liberals do not believe in collectivism, they believe in individual rights and freedoms.

                • Paul Bethune

                  Eh?
                  Uhm no. You equated that to me. I never said anyting of the sort, I merely said I like liberal teats to suckle on. Liberal as in FREE.

                • HJ777

                  You plainly don’t even remember what you wrote.

                  So let me remind you:

                  “If by socialist you mean liberal…”

                • Paul Bethune

                  Oh my god do I have to actually explain to you what I meant… I mean come on HJ777…
                  If he had said liberal teat to suckle on rather than socialist then yeah… you happy now mr banter killer?

                • HJ777

                  Trying to get out of the fact that you were clearly confused by making out it was ‘banter’.

                  You’re not fooling anyone, you know.

                • Paul Bethune

                  Boobies is banter no? lol

                • allymax bruce

                  “Since when were socialists ‘liberal’?”
                  It’s a Counterpoint title; like Labour saying they will improve education, (Education Education Education), but actually run the education of the masses into the ground. Thus, Neo-Liberalsim, is in fact Marxist Capitalism.

  • telemachus

    ‘ Lady Thatcher has long been seen by the SNP as the perfect recruiting tool for Scottish nationalism. ‘
    She destroyed English Society
    Why not let her destroy a United Country

    • Smithersjones2013

      From ‘political necrophilia’ to putrid political detritus. Afternoon tellytubby still living in the past are we?

      • telemachus

        No doubt you are as sick as I am at folk invoking this fallen woman of UK history
        Salmond is in fact welcome to her

        • Smithersjones2013

          I’m bored to tears of witless political pygmies trying to blame Margaret Thatcher for ever political woe that has occurred since the birth of man. It only demonstrates how impotent they are in comparison. She did things that they evidently are incapable of coming close to matching. So instead they whine……

          • telemachus

            I wholeheartedly agree Smithersjones2013

            She did things that they evidently are incapable of coming close to matching
            If you admire destruction of all the values we all hold good, how could anyone disagree

            • Colonel Mustard

              That is just your opinion and is not objective. I look forward to the release of Blair and Brown’s secret documents. Oh dear, they have been shredded already.

              I wonder which “civil servant” in Kew decided to release those documents with the spin that has been put on them? A Common Purpose alumnus and Labour party supporter no doubt.

              We are being manipulated and one only has to follow your comments here to understand the mind set behind that manipulation.

              • allymax bruce

                “I look forward to the release of Blair and Brown’s secret documents. Oh dear, they have been shredded already.” (Col’ Mustard).
                The Snodown revelations coming out this year will ‘show’ Bliar for the duplicitous liar he is. The ICC will be ‘asked’ to act by more than 3 European nations. Watch this space!

        • Colonel Mustard

          Salmond is welcome to all the Scots Labour MP’s in Westminster and that is what is taxing you, little man. The greatest threat to any socialist is the risk of losing power over us.

    • Hexhamgeezer

      zzzzzzzz

    • starfish

      She destroyed English Society = hyperbole

      Labour achieved far more damage with its assaults on criminal justice and personal frreedom, deaths in the NHS, un controlled immigration, unnecessary wars and financial ineptitude

    • Colonel Mustard

      The usual tripe. As Mr Starfish points out the destructive assault on English society by Labour and its various mutants has been far more destructive. Who might have guessed in Mrs Thatcher’s time that within a generation we would be living almost in an Orwellian nightmare where people were arrested for telling jokes and our choice of lightbulb was determined by some unaccountable, unelected bureaucrat in Brussels.

      One only has to follow your comments here to appreciate how dangerous socialism is. You are simply the heart and soul of the Stasi here and now in England. Everyone should remember that when voting.

  • Fergus Pickering

    What about the Duke of Cumberland, eh? A typical Englishman who murdered millions of innocent Scots. When will they be avenged?

    • Holly

      So, hopefully, the Scottish people will be chomping at the bit to ‘rid the English’ of their miserable existence, and vote for an independent Scotland governed by the likes of Salmond/Labour?
      Makes me laugh out loud at the very thought of it…..
      Ain’t NEVER gonna happen!

      • Ubik1970

        “What about the Duke of Cumberland, eh? A typical Englishman who murdered millions of innocent Scots.”

        It’s enlightening that Mr F Pickering’s comment so far has 5 up arrows. I think a lot of Nationalist supporters are increasingly living in fantasy world and are fast losing a grip on reality. Scottish Nationalism has become an obsession, and a delusional one at that.

        • terregles2

          I don’t think Mr Pickering’s votes were marked up by Sottish people as he was making a fool of recent complaints about the release of the 30 year old papers.

      • terregles2

        Incredible that you can predict the future. Have you got tonight’s lottery numbers.?

  • Smithersjones2013

    This is canny yet it is also more than slightly disingenuous

    I hadn’t realised political necrophilia was so popular north of the border? If this doesn’t prove what a regressive throwback living in the past Salmond is nothing will.

    Enough said…….

    • Makroon

      I don’t see what is so surprising, the whole Nat argument rests on ancient tales and myths of Scotland being beaten and subjugated by the evil Saxons (whilst at the same time being proudly resistant and independent) etc etc Scottish soldiers being the exploited “Mamelukes” of the empire etc and on and on ….. more myth-making and toshery is entirely in keeping with their schtick.

      • Jambo25

        Drivel.

      • terregles2

        Nobody voting this September cares about the past we are all looking to the future and the chance to build a better Scotland. Especially looking forward to getting rid of Trident and getting on with the oil exploration in the Firth of Clyde. MOD blocked the oil exploration in the 1980’s. Many people building a better Scotland will be English I am glad to say. Haven’t heard anyone dwelling on the distant past. Too much work to be done after independence.

  • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

    This is canny yet it is also more than slightly disingenuous

    Polite way of saying a politician is lying for advantage? Who’da thunk it?

    • HookesLaw

      Its pretty despewrate stuff from the nationalists. it shows they don’t have any arguments but are always ready to receive handlouts.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …and you Camerluvvies are always ready to give them those “handlouts” [sic], as your adoption of Darling’s budget clearly demonstrated.

        • HookesLaw

          You really are totally bereft of argument aren’t you.
          How was promising to cut 6 billion from the 2010-11 budget square with ‘adopting’ Darling’s budget? Setting up an independent OBR was really going along with Darling’s idea’s wasnt it. Labour screamed blue murder at ‘cutting too fast’ didn’t they.

          In short you talk the same garbage as ever. You can’t even troll or stalk with any sense. And come on do tell us, how is the grand wizard and all the rest of you rednecks?

          • the viceroy’s gin

            Your Camerluvvie mates adopted Darling’s budget, except shortly afterwards they increased it, when their fellow IMF socialists told them to do so.

            Calm down, dear.

            • HookesLaw

              Ignorant as ever Mr Redneck

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …and not only did you Camerluvvies photocopy Darling’s socialist budgets, you approved 2 obsolescent and extremely costly aircraft carriers, simply because you socialist nutter Camerloons were angling for the socialist nutter jock vote.

          • Paul Bethune

            Did you just call the OBR independent? LOL

            • HookesLaw

              I did and it is.

              • Alexsandr

                ha ha ha.

                its about as independent as the Bank of England and the FCA.
                all treasury lackeys.

      • terregles2

        Glad that you agree Scottish independence will be good for England. Scotland will no longer bleed you dry and you will have even more money to spend on HS2 and Trident missiles when you move them south.
        You should tell Cameron to stop telling the Scots to vote no. He must know more than anyone how rich England will be when you are free of Scotland. Is Cameron mad.?. Why is he campaigning against Scottish independence.?

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