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Jimmy Carter talks sense about the late Nelson Mandela

7 December 2013

3:38 PM

7 December 2013

3:38 PM

Rod Liddle’s observation about the death of Nelson Mandela, cut off, alas, at the age of 95, hardly needs supplementing but I was struck by one aspect of the blanket coverage, viz, its quasi-religious character. The Mirror, the day after the sad event, observed that Mr Mandela was as near as we get in this fallen world to a saint. And this morning, the Today programme brought the thing to its logical conclusion when one presenter, Justin Webb posed the question (1.15): given the moral example of Nelson Mandela, ‘why is the world not a better place?’ So it was over for an answer to former US president Jimmy Carter, a member of a group known as the Elders, who travel the world to spread the Mandela message. This was the question: ‘Some people have compared Nelson Mandela with Jesus. You’re a religious man. Would you?’ (Don’t you love that distancing – ‘Some people…’?).

No, came the unexpectedly stern response from Carter. ‘I look upon Jesus Christ as the Son of God, as God himself, and I certainly wouldn’t compare any human being with Jesus.’ It’s at times like this you rather regret that, radio being radio, it’s not possible to see expressions, but there was a nanosecond of shocked pause at that.

Still, Mr Carter went on to say that Mr Mandela was one of the finest men he had ever known – and given that he had known him personally, that was genuine praise. Still, it cut the cultish aspect of the BBC coverage down to size a bit.

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Show comments
  • Mujeed Muhammad

    You Spend 27 years in Prison in your own Homeland ruined by thieves and robbers, trust and know, We are not Duped into foolishness, Keep your hypocrisy Mandela passing is remembered with drums beating for War and Revolution.

  • Mujeed Muhammad

    Leave Africa, The World is Corrupt due to The Interferences of Racist Scum claiming to Love Mandela all the while treacherous religious devils. Power to Freedom. Mandela a man like Jesus!

  • Mary Gilmore

    Mandela was educated by Christian Missionaries
    From St.Paul:
    For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ
    lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the
    faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

  • buzzard10

    Why doesn’t the photo caption also identify the two women? – Mary Robinson and, rather more important in current circs, Graca Machel, Mandela’s wife!

  • http://www.agnieszkasplawska.pl/ Agnieszka Spławska

    In Poland we would say that Nelson needed to visit Medycyna estetyczna Wrocław it is kind of renewal center for older people. Unfortuantely it is too late. RIP

  • jimun

    Amen. Mandela was a great man, but you can’t compare him to the Savior of the World, Lord of Lord, who is and was incarnate of God.

  • B. C. White

    Nelson Mandela I’m sure was no saint. I’ve met many saints (in the sense of people walking the way of Christ which is a Biblical concept – and many of these were not Christians either!) but no saints in the sense of people in the Roman Catholic tradition of being somehow of far superior spiritual ability to the rest of humanity (I doubt they exist as its not a Biblical concept – with all respect to my RC brothers and sisters in Christ). Christian teaching makes clear that all people fall short of the glory of God (God’s minimum requirement being perfection – which most Christians are often the first to forget and for which we are rightly castigated by our critics, such as the late Chris Hitchens.) so we shouldn’t be surprised with the state of the world or that everyone from priests/pastors/ministers to criminals can be pretty wretched. I’m more surprised and celebrate those rare instances when ordinary sinners like Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, or Frederick Douglass can choose to follow in the most excellent way of promoting social justice between humanity by demonstrating love, reconciliation, humility and leadership by opposing evil while still loving humanity/individuals. This is so rare.
    We should not be surprised that blacks kill white farmers, or whites oppress and kill blacks for decades (or hundreds of years as in the “enlightened west”), that Christians kill Christians, or Christians oppress Muslims, that in a rich country like Canada Native people live in third world conditions, that in “Christian” America (the United States), ignorance and bigotry between lower class whites and blacks (both of which are mainly Christian) is rampant (and the ultra rich Christian majority does little to improve these brother’s and sister’s conditions) or in a international private school in Canada, in which I worked – Asians despised Asians, and could treat each other as if they were mortal enemies. There was very little difference between these groups, including those from probably the most Christian country on earth – South Korea.
    I believe that such a condition is not only socialized into us, but probably is inherent in our DNA. Recent studies seem to indicate that prejudice is a condition that goes far beyond an uneducated and bigoted upbringing – unlike what my educated parents and relatives promoted – that education could solve these problems – I’m firmly convinced that personal choice and resolve must also be involved (and as a Christian, the radical transformation of the individual initiated by God himself). I myself have rubbed shoulders with the academic/educated/social elite and have seen sophisticated concealed prejudice, bigotry and small mindedness within people who lead our society.
    I grew up in a rural Ontario Canadian community that was 99% WASP (I’m of British Victorian WASP heritage with a lot of Orange Ontario baggage to boot), yet as a young person growing up, we still managed to come up with novel methods to demonize each other for being “different” in school in our homogenous microcosm – height, size, minimal socio-economic differences, academic and physical differences the list was endless. I have seen this within so called less “progressive” communities than mine and the so called more/most “progressive and enlightened” communities than mine within Canada and the West.
    Rather than criticize others who are different than us (which is the easiest thing to do in the world, I can do it as well as the next person), we need to learn from the example of someone like Nelson Mandela. Try to understand others, improve ourselves, focus on those attributes that make us all human (at least 98% of which we all share) and cut the bullshit of wasting our time worrying about those things that divide us and all the past wrongs of others. As a wise peasant itinerant preacher once said to a group of his society’s most educated and enlightened people who wanted to see justice, exert their power, and dish out punishment to someone who was different and of lower status than themselves (a woman):
    “He who is without sin can cast the first stone.”
    I’m sure if we were attacked by aliens tomorrow we would gain a new perspective on our differences and develop a more inclusive philosophy of human relations to live by. I rejoice with humanity this day for the rare example of a person who we can learn from, in our time, about how to grow to be a better person and help serve the people around us in a better way – whether these people are our friends or are our enemies.
    Amen

  • chrismet

    We have evidence Mandela was real, so there’s no comparison.

  • hennesli

    RIP Mandela – yes some of the coverage of his death may be a little OTT but that takes nothing away from the fact that he was a thoroughly decent and inspiring individual. I certainly wouldn’t have been so forgiving towards the former agents of apartheid.

    • Fergus Pickering

      Thoroughly decent? His first wife would not agree I think. He was a serial adulterer which is not thoroughly decent. And he was a damn fool to marry his second wife, the murderous Winnie.

  • Otto

    Under Carter the US backed racist South Africa to the hilt in its war in Angola that is estimated to have killed half a million people. It is an incredible mass murder in a country that had only about five million people at the time. In UK terms that means six and a half million dead and in US terms 30 million. In Russian terms, 15 million: outdoing Stalin.
    So much for Carter the humanitarian.

    • Craig King

      While the Russians and Cubans backed De Santos and his gang of murdering kleptocrats.

      It was a war you know, even if it was characterised as a cold one, and lots of folk died on both sides of that one.

      The Russians must be mightily pissed off by the fact that ChiComs have such wide ranging influence there now though. All the Russians got to do was fish the Angolan oceans empty, just as they did in Mozambique.

      • Otto

        In Russian terms, 15 million: outdoing Stalin.
        So much for Carter the humanitarian.

        • Fergus Pickering

          Stalin killed far more than 15 million people. And all of them Russians.

  • James Strong

    I think the woman on the left of the picture, gracious, elegant and a woman of real achievement deserves a name-check before the bearded self-publicist Branson.
    But I quite seriously wonder if your caption writer knows who she is. This is disappointing.

    • Roger Hudson

      Mary Robinson, one of the ‘Elders’, a great woman.

      • James Strong

        Yes, I think many of the readers of this blog will know that, but I do worry that there are Speccie staffers who don’t.

      • David Aspd

        Mary Robinson is not a great woman. She was elected Irish President twice consecutively and choose to stand down early in order to take a lucrative job at the UN, thereby breach the publics vote of faith in her. She was also a drum beater in office for the wondrous diversity that Ireland entered into.

      • Craig King

        Well perhaps not great. She always struck me as a left wing multi-culturalist who spoke in banalities about love and peace and the brotherhood of man without actually doing anything of note.

        Nicely spoken though.

  • D Whiggery

    Finally some common sense from a man who had so little when he was in office. The BBC once again struck the wrong tone and got completely carried away. They were not alone this time however. Most of our media seems to have taken leave of their sense for the last couple of days.

    Its Diana syndrome all over again. We’re still in the the intense hysteria phase and are witnessing much wailing from people who never met him. Do not fed however, soon the memory will fades before we all move on an appreciate the real state of South Africa that he’s left behind.

  • Bonkim

    Don’t believe in religion or saints and Mandela had his human faults – but he was a cut above, a shrewd politician and knew that civil wars don’t achieve anything but break up of what is there. Little doubt that European organisation, and technology made SA prosperous and unless the Africans rise up to protect Mandela’s legacy – will lose out. After all they are the majority and more to lose if today’s politicians fail. All told Mandela was an all-time great.

  • Eddie

    Mandela was a politician and a lawyer – he was clever at politics and lucky with timing. He is unfortunate to have a vile family, with a wife alleged to have murdered and his party the ANC is corruption personified, far worse than any white SA govt.

    Also, prison changed Mandela and turned him from a hothead who probably hated whites into a follower of Ghandi and peaceful resolution.

    It’s also taboo to state the fact that if SA had had one man one vote 40 years ago, it would look like Zimbabwe now or one of the other corrupt basket case African countries. No coincidence Mandela was released soon after communism collapsed – if SA had become a cold war battlefield between the soviets and the CIA, it would resemble so many other African states.

    I certainly did not support it, but in terms of the economy and stability, apartheid saved South Africa – its economy, at least, which the ANC’s elite are now plundering. Mandela was the only SA politician worth respecting – the rest are the usual African despots and thieves. Many policies there now are racist against whites – a fact the BBC, which also has such ‘positive action’ policies won’t be debating any time soon. No debate or understanding of why the Dutch wanted apartheid in the first place either – (ie to protect themselves against the other white tribe, the Brits, and the criminal blacks who looked like ruining their homeland).

    • Amin

      ” from a hothead who probably hated whites”

      In other words – he never hated whites . . .he didn’t even hate the white racist scum he eventually helped to defeat . . .

      – –

      “I certainly did not support it, but in terms of the economy and stability, apartheid saved South Africa”

      No it did not . . . and that is sickening justification of Racism . . only whites racists come up with this.

      – –

      “Many policies there now are racist against whites”

      No they are not . . . if the torture blacks had suffered was inflicted upon the whites . . .

      They forgave the whites and let them live . . . and there are still white racists like you about . . . making things up.

      • Hexhamgeezer

        ‘.and let them live’? hmmmm, how gracious. If there had been the prospect of a race war, do you think the Boers would have just sat back and taken it?

        • Amin

          How pathetic an answer . . . there wasn’t a race war. The whole point.

      • Pootles

        I say, Amin, why do you keep ignoring my response to your ‘lies, lies, it’s all lies!’ posts? Have a look at what John Simpson reported: ‘you are twice as likely to be murdered if you are a white farmer than if you are a police officer’. Figures are hard to come by, but in his report Simpson noted that the numbers of white farmers have halved from 60,000 to 30,000 in 20 years, and gave one set of figures – of 2,000 white farmer murders, which, he noted, ‘were often particularly brutal’. See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22554709

        • Amin

          “I say, Amin, why do you keep ignoring my response”

          Hang – ignored which response? So I was not there to respond *instantly* . . .

          – –

          ‘you are twice as likely to be murdered if you are a white farmer than if you are a police officer’

          This did not make much sense. . . as compared to what? Black or white police officers?

          And how many of these murders are racially motivated?

          – –

          After my repeatedly asking for evidence. . . and that is what you come up with quick google search and news report . . . from which you pick out “choice” bits . . .

          See I can do that too . . .

          http://www.relativityonline.com/home/racism-alive-and-well-in-south-africa/

          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19402353

          • Pootles

            My dear Amin, you replied to other posts after my response was posted. And, no, I didn’t google it, I remembered that John Simpson had filed the report on the magazine section of the BBC website, so I just went and found it. Neither did I pick ‘choice’ bits. In fact, the whole Simpson report includes a good deal of material on the fate of poor white Afrikaners. I would still say that Simpson’s report constitutes evidence in relation to your arguments with other people on this site. It is you who probably need to reconsider your ‘lies, lies’ responses.

            • Amin

              “My dear Amin, you replied to other posts after my response was posted.”

              And?

              – –

              “And, no, I didn’t google it”

              Of course you did!

              – –

              “Neither did I pick ‘choice’ bits. In fact, the whole Simpson report includes a good deal of material on the fate of poor white Afrikaners.”

              Hmm . .

              “They run the economy. They have a disproportionate amount of influence in politics and the media. They still have the best houses and most of the best jobs.

              All of this is true but it is not the only picture.”

              Yeah . . . already exposed this.

              – –

              • Pootles

                No, I remembered John Simpson’s report, as I think the ‘magazine’ bit of the BBC’s website is quite often pretty good. I went to the ‘magazine’, and searched for ‘John Simpson”. So there you go. As you seem to agree with your ‘hmmmm’, I did not pick ‘choice bits’, I merely referenced the murders and decline in white farmers as that was what you and others were arguing about, and you were calling other people ‘liars’ over. Clearly, the murders of white farmers is part of the picture – what’s the problem with acknowledging that?

            • Amin

              ” I would still say that Simpson’s report constitutes evidence in relation to your arguments with other people on this site.”

              No it does not. Do “white” people face crime by blacks in SA? Of course they do.

              Are all such murders racially motivated? No.

              – –

              Have you provided evidence? Nope.

              Read Simpsons report – it makes no such claims. And crime in SA is high for EVERYONE. . .

              http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8668615.stm

              So if SA faces 18,000 murders . . . and in 20years 2,000 white farmers have been murdered. . .

              – –

              Then there are class of white people that are rich . . . and well off. They take top jobs and hold high positions . . . and they are not er . . .discriminated against.

              And then there are stories such as this:

              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2321236/Orania-Whites-town-South-Africa-Afrikaners-dream-building-state.html

              • Pootles

                I did not say that ‘all such murders were racially motivated’. I posted to show you that your claims that there was no evidence that white farmers were being murdered was incorrect – as Simpson’s report shows. And no-one is saying that there aren’t very rich, powerful white South Africans, any more than you can deny that there are extremely poor, largely Afrikaans, white South Africans. In other words, and as usual, things are complicated.

                • Amin

                  “I posted to show you that your claims that there was no evidence that
                  white farmers were being murdered was incorrect – as Simpson’s report
                  shows.”

                  You will find this to incorrect. And now you are dropping whatever “objections” you had.

                  In future – try finding out what’s going on . . . rather than jumping in will nilly.

                  – – –

                  And this is Spectator magazine . . . many a racist tends to gather here . . . those looking to subvert the truth. . .

                  Why don’t you read the comments? Not one person has managed to find evidence for their belief that white farmers are being topped off by racist blacks . . or that Mandela was a hardened racist terrorist.

                • Pootles

                  Just what are you rambling on about? I still think that John Simpson’s report is evidence of the killings of white farmers. You say that it is ‘incorrect’. If you think you have evidence to show that Simpson and the BBC are wrong, then you need to complain to the BBC. They have a clear, open complaints procedure – you pop off and use it. And stop calling people ‘liars’ because you don’t agree with them.

                  At no point did I say that Mandela was ‘a hardened racist terrorist’. Where did I say that ? I did not. Neither do I think it.

                • Amin

                  “I posted to show you that your claims that there was no evidence that
                  white farmers were being murdered was incorrect – as Simpson’s report
                  shows.”

                  You will find this to incorrect.

                  – –

                  You will that I have never posed what YOU claim.

                  It is like talking to . . . you.

                  = = =

                  It is QUITE clearly you who need to read:

                  “At no point did I say that Mandela was ‘a hardened racist terrorist’. Where did I say that ? I did not. Neither do I think it.”

                  Vs

                  [[

                  Why don’t you read the comments? Not one person has managed to find evidence for their belief that white farmers are being topped off by racist blacks . . or that Mandela was a hardened racist terrorist.

                  ]]

                • Pootles

                  If you believe that John Simpson’s report is incorrect, that it is, in effect, a lie, you need to complain to the BBC. In fact, you probably need to contact John Simpson, as I very much doubt that a reporter of such standing either wants to be saying things that are ‘incorrect’, or wants people saying on public access website that he is ‘incorrect’ in his reporting. Complain, give your evidence, and come back here to let us all know how you get on.

                  Given that you don’t think white farmers are being murdered, the next bit is tricky. But, let us for argument’s sake say that they are being murdered. Who is murdering them ? Other white farmers?

                • Amin

                  “Given that you don’t think white farmers are being murdered”

                  You tend to make up things don’t you? I have had to repeat for someone like you . . .white farmers are not being murdered by groups or government. And try reading the BBC report . . . and where does it allege such things?

                  – – –

                  “But, let us for argument’s sake say that they are being murdered. Who is murdering them ? Other white farmers?”

                  Some might be . . . some murders are committed by the family [crimes of passion] and whatnot . . . others are crimes – folk looting and whatnot.

                • Pootles

                  No, I have made nothing up – you need to stop accusing people of lying.

                  If you look back at the original posts that got you going, you will see that no-one said, farmers are being ‘murdered by groups or government’. The ONLY person who has said that is you, when you have, falsely, accused people you don’t agree with of saying it – you’ve created your very own straw man. The original post said that since Mandela et al came to power, white farmers have been tortured and murdered – it did NOT say that either Mandela or the government did that. The point at issue has been, have white farmers been murdered in numbers? The answer is, ‘yes, they have’.

                  As for the murders of 2,000+ white farmers being the work of other white farmers and their families…

                  We’re getting nowhere with this, so we’ll have to agree to disagree. But you still have to tell John Simpson that he is ‘incorrect’, unless you want to call him a ‘liar’, as well.

                • Amin

                  “No, I have made nothing up – you need to stop accusing people of lying. ”

                  Why? What is it to you?

                  – –

                  “If you look back at the original posts that got you going, you will see that no-one said, farmers are being ‘murdered by groups or government’. The ONLY person who has said that is you”

                  Really?

                  “More white farmers in SA have been tortured & killed since Mandela & black subsequent leaders of SA have come to power, than Margaret Thatcher sacked miners, a fact you won’t hear the BBC discussing.”

                  What do you think this is saying?

                  – –

                  How about this:

                  “I certainly did not support it, but in terms of the economy and stability, apartheid saved South Africa – its economy, at least, which the ANC’s elite are now plundering.”

                  What do you think this person is saying? He didn’t support apartheid – YET – he is justifying it!

                  = = =

                • Pootles

                  None of those said that the white farmer murders were the work of ‘groups or the [SA] government’.

                  Stop being so cross. Stop calling people liars merely because you don’t agree with them. And complain to John Simpson if you think he is ‘incorrect’ about the white farmer story.

                • Amin

                  “Stop calling people liars merely because you don’t agree with them.”

                  What is it to you? I call people “liar” over petty lying . . . and to some extent have already been proven right.

                  – –

                  “And complain to John Simpson if you think he is ‘incorrect’ about the white farmer story.”

                  Why should I complain to him? Wind went out of this – yet you still do not have the decency . . . I did not ONCE complain about the story.

                  – –

                • Amin

                  “The point at issue has been, have white farmers been murdered in numbers? The answer is, ‘yes, they have’. ”

                  And when you compare the high crime figures – the murder rate . . . why are deaths of whites more important than Black or Asians?

                  – –

                  “As for the murders of 2,000+ white farmers being the work of other white farmers and their families… ”

                  You are dishonest. Read:

                  [[ Some might be . . . some murders are committed by the family [crimes of passion] and whatnot . . . others are crimes – folk looting and whatnot. ]]

                  Are you trying to make out that I have said – ALL the deaths are by other whites?

                  I made the correct point . . . not all these are by Blacks. Some could be Asian – and by other whites and EVEN the members of the family of that particular farmer . . . as such crimes often are. Ascribing all these crimes to Blacks and being motivated by Racism is plain wrong.

                • Pootles

                  I have not said the deaths of whites are more significant than the deaths of any other group, but the original point (the one when you said that other posters had ‘no evidence’) was about white farmers, so that is the case in point.

                  Given that you began by saying that there were no white farmer murders, it is odd that you now, apparently, have the figures for the proportion of the killings carried out by different groups. Could you share those figures with us?

                  And, you’ve done it again – I am not being ‘dishonest’. Stop doing it – it is very naughty, it doesn’t help your case, and you look silly.

                  Sleep tight, old chap.

                • Amin

                  “I have not said the deaths of whites are more significant than the deaths of any other group”

                  So what is your gripe exactly?

                  – –

                  “but the original point (the one when you said that other posters had ‘no evidence’) was about white farmers, so that is the case in point. ”

                  And that still stands . . . how much evidence do you have that crimes against whites is racially motivated? Evidence?

                  – –

                • Amin

                  “Given that you began by saying that there were no white farmer murders”

                  See! You are liar – aren’t you? I asked you to prove I said anything of the sort . . . you didn’t.

                  Now you are still maintaining this. I wonder why!

                  – –

                  [[

                  And, you’ve done it again – I am not being ‘dishonest’. Stop doing it – it is very naughty, it doesn’t help your case, and you look silly.

                  ]]

                  Nope – I should called you what you are . . .out and out liar. One who lies . . . dishonest – I was softening it a bit.

                  Look at your lies . . . and address them.

                  = =

                  “Sleep tight, old chap.”

                  Such drama will not help – if you are unable to answer the questions.

                • Amin

                  “But you still have to tell John Simpson that he is ‘incorrect’, unless you want to call him a ‘liar’, as well.”

                  Why? What is he incorrect over? See how utterly dishonest you are?

                  You have repudiated your own views and yet left this dangling. . .

                • Pootles

                  Don’t be obtuse. It is you who said that John Simpson’s report was ‘incorrect’. You are silly.

                • Amin

                  “Don’t be obtuse. It is you who said that John Simpson’s report was ‘incorrect’. You are silly.”

                  Ah, look – the liar is also resorting to being petty. You are lying again.

                  I have NOT once said . . . Simpon’s report was “incorrect”. See another lie to the count!

            • Amin

              Yeah . . . you had one Simpsons report . . . picked out choice bits . . and your lies and those of your fellow racists are shameless.

              Countless times asking for evidence . . . well?

              You are THAT lazy . . . you cannot even be bothered to hunt Google or read a report. . . or two.

              This the very definition of being “prejudiced”.

              • Pootles

                You have no idea what my views are on South Africa. I posted to show you that you were wrong when you said that there was no evidence that white farmers were being murdered, and that, in consequence, your jeering, ‘lies, lies’ approach was unsustainable.

                • Amin

                  “when you said that there was no evidence that white farmers were being murdered”

                  I think you will find this to be untrue. And you have not given any evidence to show that these farmers are a particular target [racism]. . . given SA’s murder rate.

                • Pootles

                  Why will I ‘find this to be untrue’? If you can show that John Simpson’s report is ‘untrue’ or a ‘lie’, then you should contact the BBC and make a formal complaint. They will deal with your complaint.

        • Amin

          “but in his report Simpson noted that the numbers of white farmers have halved from 60,000 to 30,000 in 20 years”

          But I am not one bit surprised at this. Of course some people were going to run for it. . .

          – – –

          “They run the economy. They have a disproportionate amount of influence in politics and the media. They still have the best houses and most of the best jobs.

          All of this is true but it is not the only picture.”

          • Pootles

            Yes, the picture is, of course, extremely complex, as one would it expect it to be. And part of that picture is the 50% fall in white farmers. Taken with the 2,000+ white farmer murders (around 7% of the remaining farmers), the killings might well offer a reason why some have ‘run for it’, as you put it.

            • Amin

              ” Taken with the 2,000+ white farmer murders (around 7% of the remaining farmers)”

              Over 2 decades . . . try reading.

              “Ernst Roets’s organisation has published the names of more than 2,000 people who have died over the last two decades.”

              – –

              “And part of that picture is the 50% fall in white farmers.”

              Which you would expect . . . that after the sweet spot was over – many were going to run.

              – –

              “the killings might well offer a reason why some have ‘run for it’, as you put it.”

              At least the white folk had somewhere to run . . . blacks tend not be as lucky.

              • Pootles

                Er, yes, I did say, in my post (if YOU could try reading) that the killings and the fall in farmer numbers were over ’20 years’. A drop of 30,000 and 2,000+ murders are still figures worth thinking about. And, one part of the reason for the fall is very likely to be the murders. Let me repeat that for you: ONE part of the reason for the fall is very likely to be the murders.

                • Amin

                  Give SA murder rate . . . 2,000 over 20years. . . about ten a year. And a whole country of blacks . . .

                • Pootles

                  Yes, indeed, the murder, violence and rape rates are really shocking. But, if you remember, my initial post was because you were repeatedly calling other people liars because they said that white farmers were being murdered. Which is true, not a lie.

                • Amin

                  You have repeatedly proven your reading skills are either poor or dead set against me.

                  My objection from the start is still same:

                  Whites are not being killed off under some heavy conspiracy by the government – or by some organized black gang at the scale someone like BNP would be [and no I am not alleging BNP kill people].

                  And it is wondrous . . . for simply asking for evidence – you get so much stick. Something else you choose to ignore.

                • Pootles

                  And my point is also still the same: that white farmers have been, and are being murdered. Further, that some evidence of this is contained in John Simpson’s BBC report. In addition, white farmers are have been, and are being, murdered by people other than other white farmers.

                  As for getting ‘so much stick’, I suspect that is because of your ‘lies, lies’ approach, along with randomly accusing people, about whom you know nothing, of being racist.

                • Amin

                  “And my point is also still the same: that white farmers have been, and are being murdered. ”

                  Yes – but how is that in anyway a response to me? What has it to do with me?

                  – –

                  “In addition, white farmers are have been, and are being, murdered by people other than other white farmers. ”

                  Yes. And what has that to do with me . . . and how is it in answer to anything I have said?

                  – –

                  [[ As for getting ‘so much stick’, I suspect that is because of your ‘lies, lies’ approach, along with randomly accusing people, about whom you know nothing, of being racist. ]]

                  If you are going to make up such lies . . . and they are lies. Open your eyes, petal, such comments are racists.

                  – –

                  Why don’t you read Liddle’s piece? It is racism.

                • Pootles

                  My dear fellow, we disagree. It doesn’t matter. It is not important. Sleep tight.

                • Amin

                  Yet – you have lost sight – what it is we disagree on.

                • beeds

                  “about ten a year”? 2000/20=100. Almost 2 each week. For 20 years. Note too that this is the low end of the estimate. 4000 murders is almost 4 a week. Or more than a murder every 2 days. For 20 years. Not bad stats.

                • Amin

                  “2000/20=100. Almost 2 each week. For 20 years. Note too that this is the
                  low end of the estimate. 4000 murders is almost 4 a week. Or more than a
                  murder every 2 days. For 20 years. Not bad stats.”

                  Thank you. You are right . . it is 100.

      • Augustus

        Nelson Mandela was planning on killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians in his quest for power, and was sentenced to life imprisonment, not summarily executed, as he undoubtedly would have been in any black African country at that time for the same offenses.

        • Amin

          You talking absolute NONSENSE . . .it is made up and and I suspect entirely of racist motivation.

          Look above you . . . people like you have NOT presented single shred of evidence. . .

  • huhu

    I think it’s okay for the bbc to report and reflect a warmer worldwide sentiment than lemony Rod Liddle could muster. It’s possible to report and reflect warm feelings for someone other than Diana or Thatcher or Jesus. The Carter Jesus question made this point well, whether or not Melanie is up to recognising it.

  • Rocksy

    I must be hallucinating. I thought I read in this article that Jimmy Carter said something ballsy and right (pun intended).

  • Augustus

    Excerpts from an interview by the Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant with Frederik Willem de Klerk, the seventh and last white president of the Apartheid regime. (translated from Dutch) –

    “Mandela and I have become good friends,” says de Klerk. “I have no problem with the way he felt about me. Mandela has given me, in all dignity, credit for the role I played in the transition to the new South Africa. His party, however, the African National Congress (ANC), is very negative about me. That is petty party politics. ”
    What has been said about Gorbachev, the man who with his ‘ openness and reform ‘ ended the Soviet era, can also be said about de Klerk: he was a ‘ general in retreat ‘. His importance in the dismantling of Apartheid can hardly be overestimated, but the ‘ victory ‘, and with it, the glory and recognition, of course, went to the main opponent, Nelson Mandela.
    Eighteen years after the end of apartheid, de Klerk, in an interview with CNN, still accorded “a certain merit ” to his regime: ‘”the goal was separation, but also equality’. He said. But it was precisely this separation which was an anathema for Nelson Mandela. He and de Klerk may, in 1993, have shared the Nobel Peace Prize, but in their thinking, their background, and their character, they were two men often fiercely opposed. Not for nothing did de Klerk later say that Mandela was “no Saint”, and as a political opponent in the negotiations for a free South Africa “harsh and unfair”. “There’s no doubt about it, ‘ he says, ‘”that Mandela as president put special emphasis on reconciliation. “That will be the lasting legacy of Mandela, the exemplary way in which he sought the ideal of reconciliation in his later life.” Also Mandela’s successor, Thabo Mbeki, worked, according to de Clerk, towards this ideal. But after all these years it’s still not a reality. According to him South Africa is a divided society. De Klerk, like many other prominent whites, sees a new kind of segregation in his country, where the ruling ANC of the black majority is out to push the white man, who although no longer a political force, still has plenty of economic power, aside in every way possible.”

  • MikeF

    ” its quasi-religious character”. Quite – the ‘liberal-left’ have turned Nelson Mandela into a secular saint. But the ‘religion’ involved – though it may style itself as ‘anti-racism’ or whatever – is entirely one of self-worship.

  • XH558

    I cannot imagine any representative of the Church of England (at least none likely to be invited onto Today), responding with such concise sincerity. Cue verbal contortions to demonstrate that the comparison is apposite without actually falling into blasphemy.

  • Andy

    To compare Mandela to Christ is blasphemous. It is also stupid.

    Mandela was many things and some of them were not particularly nice. He was very tolerant of that scum Robert Mugabe who has destroyed a country. He was quite happy to break bread with another bit of scum, Gaddafi. Likewise Castro. And he was slow to realise the consequences of AIDS in South Africa.

    Mandela was no Saint, but like all men a sinner. Much of the coverage has been over the top. What we need and what we will eventually get is a proper perspective, warts an all.

    • Otto

      Nelson Mandela was a Communist by sympathy and perhaps for a time even
      Party membership for very good and praiseworthy reasons: because the
      South African Communist Party was for a long time the only seriously
      cross-racial party in South Africa and the Soviet Union was the staunchest international defender of the anti-racist cause in South Africa.

    • John Rothgeb

      Yeah, comparing a human to the son of an invisible imaginary (and very jealous, vindictive and harsh one at that in the Old Testament) diety is blasphemous. Anyone who does that should be stoned to death immediately.

      • http://ajbrenchley.com/ Swanky

        Diety: You mean a god that refused to order pizza?

  • The BBC Sucks BBCs

    More white farmers in SA have been tortured & killed since Mandela & black subsequent leaders of SA have come to power, than Margaret Thatcher sacked miners, a fact you won’t hear the BBC discussing.

    • Amin

      A fact is it? Or just your nonsense? You “racists” make up facts as you go along . . .

      It is all about being “white” is it?

      • Jambo25

        He went over the top with his posting but he has a bit of a point. There have been a lot of what appear to be racially inspired murders of white farmers. Up to about 4,000 have been killed. It’s part of a wider problem of violent crime which has slipped out of international news a bit but hasn’t gone away.

        • Amin

          Any facts? Or do you all work on make belief?

          – –

          White farmers, most who were allowed to retain their stolen lands . . . and are still prosperous.

          If you have any facts – share . . . and ask why isn’t you “right-wing” magazine printing such stories?

          • Andy

            Two of my South African friends are clergy – Roman Catholic Priests. One of them was attacked and badly injured in the nave of the church, so much so that he was in intensive care for a week. I’ll be racist: his assailant, who has never been caught, was Black.

            My other friend who is also a priest has to live in a fortress even though the church and manse is in middle class sort of area. Again the church has repeatedly been robbed and the former priest was violently attacked, again by a black. Only last week my friend had gone to a nursing home to comfort someone who was dying, and came out to find his car had been stolen. It will never be seen again, spirited away and broken up for parts – apparently the make is sought after because all the black taxi drivers can use its parts.

            You wont believe the above because of your inherent racism, but it is true. And lets not even mention the endemic corruption; Zuma spending lavish amounts of taxpayers money on his private residence etc, etc, etc. So all in all everything is fab in South Africa.

            • Amin

              So asking for “facts” is “inherent racism”? No dear . . . you are racist. For attempting to support racism. . . in such way.

              When I asked for hard evidence . . . all you have to offer is make belief.

              And you know full well it is utter lies . . .but still . . . it works for your fellow racists.

              • Andy

                Your stupid reply to the above merely shows your inherent racism. I gave you two stories, both of which are entirely true, but to you with your anti-white racism they are mere ‘make belief’. South Africa is gradually decending into chaos and mayhem, and is doing so because of people like you. The white man is always wrong, always a ‘racist’: the black man is always oppressed, suffering at the hand of racism. The reality is very different.

                • Amin

                  “Your stupid reply to the above merely shows your inherent racism. ”

                  You are unable to explain why my response is stupid . . . other than to call it stupid merely on perceptions – that is bigotry and prejudice.

                  Then – the “inherent racism” is worthless and petty insult. . . as you are not clever enough to respond – the best you can come up with is to counter the racism accusation.

                  – –

                  “I gave you two stories, both of which are entirely true”

                  Proof? Ah . . .

                  – –

                  “but to you with your anti-white racism”

                  Yes. But I am white . . . half “white” and half Semitic.

                  – –

                  “South Africa is gradually decending into chaos and mayhem, and is doing so because of people like you.”

                  In other words . . . it was better when Whites – subjugated blacks. . . NOW that is racism.

                  – –

                  “The white man is always wrong, always a ‘racist'”

                  Incorrect – some whites are . . . not all. That would be ridiculous proposition . . .in case of SA apartheid . . . they were.

                  And then there are people like you. . .

                  – –

                  “The reality is very different.”

                  And when are the whites – victims? We are THE most successful race – in about every way.

                • Andy

                  Should I send you the ‘proof’ in the form of the trial report for the assailant, who was conveniently never caught, who very nearly murdered a priest in the nave of his own Church ? Or a few pictures of another friends barred and bolted Church and Manse ? You believe none of this because it suits your racist ideology not to believe what I can swear on Oath is true. The liar here is not me, but you.

                  I do not care whether someone is white, black, pink, yellow or blue. I did not say South Africa ‘was better when Whites – subjugated blacks’ – you said that. But what you see all too often is South Africa today is not White racism, of which you seem so fond: what you see is Black racism to which you are entirely blind.

                  You see where this leads just across the border in Zimbabwe where that murdering ba*tard Mugabe has destroyed his country with his White Racism. And yet here in the West, in the pages of that Fascist rag the Guardian one never reads of his evil. But then good old Bob is a Marxist scumbag and black, which excuses all.

                • Amin

                  “Should I send you the ‘proof’ in the form of the trial report for the assailant, who was conveniently never caught”

                  Or conveniently this never happened. . . and now do you realize how “dumb” it is to make up such evidence? And why people like you make up such stuff? And how easy it is to see right through it? Many try it on . . .

                  – –

                  “You believe none of this because it suits your racist ideology not to believe what I can swear on Oath is true. The liar here is not me, but you. ”

                  And without a single shred of proof . . . you think your oath is going to cut it?

                  Pull the other one son. Why don’t you look around . . .why is it YOU and your racist brethren have failed to provide a single shred of proof?

                  – –

                • Andy

                  Only my word is greater than your oath.

                • Amin

                  Ha ha ha ha . . . you are a sick racist aren’t you? You imagine what you wish, petal. I ain’t in the least bit bothered.

                • Amin

                  “I do not care whether someone is white, black, pink, yellow or blue.”

                  Yeah right. So what exactly is your objection then?

                  – –

                  “I did not say South Africa ‘was better when Whites – subjugated blacks’ – you said that. But what you see all too often is South Africa today is not White racism, of which you seem so fond: what you see is Black racism to which you are entirely blind. ”

                  This is like . . . how BNP put it about that Whites are the victims in UK . . . evidence? None. Simple – real simple . .

                  Evidence? Your [convenient] tales do not CONSTITUTE evidence. So these black people who never caught . . .yet you already have it down that they were racists?

                  Yeah. . . see how your BS doesn’t wash.

                  – –

                • Andy

                  No point talking to Fascists like you.

                • Amin

                  People like you are abusive, ignorant, hatemongers and unfortunately not very educated. . . hen the argument runs out . . .

                • Amin

                  “And yet here in the West, in the pages of that Fascist rag the Guardian”

                  Says it all about you doesn’t it . . . and you sweet little lies:

                  “I do not care whether someone is white, black, pink, yellow or blue.”

                  Yes you do . . .

                  Here is the evidence of your lies.

              • Pootles

                I say, Amin, why do you keep ignoring my response to your ‘lies, lies, it’s all lies!’ posts? Have a look at what John Simpson reported:
                John Simpson, BBC, 13 May 2013: ‘you are twice as likely to be murdered if you are a white farmer than if you are a police officer’. Figures are hard to come by, but in his report Simpson noted that the numbers of white farmers have halved from 60,000 to 30,000 in 20 years, and gave one set of figures – of 2,000 white farmer murders, which, he noted, ‘were often particularly brutal’. See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22554709

          • Pootles

            John Simpson, BBC, 13 May 2013: ‘you are twice as likely to be murdered if you are a white farmer than if you are a police officer’. Figures are hard to come by, but in his report Simpson noted that the numbers of white farmers have halved from 60,000 to 30,000 in 20 years, and gave one set of figures – of 2,000 white farmer murders, which, he noted, ‘were often particularly brutal’. See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22554709

          • Jambo25

            Simply Google White farmer murders and see what comes up. My son’s partner’s brother in law was shot dead in an attack on his place. Several other members of the family and friendship group have also been attacked or robbed. Most of that family/friendship group have moved or are in the process of moving abroad.

            • Amin

              “Simply Google White farmer murders and see what comes up.”

              When people put this in – it ALWAYS sign they do not know and have been making things up.

              – –

              And quit lying.

              • Jambo25

                You start to lose the argument so resort to telling people they are lying. I leave it up to others whose word to trust.

                • Amin

                  Hardly. As this is a site full of sweet little liars and racists . . . saying this:

                  ” I leave it up to others whose word to trust.”

                  Is absolutely meaningless.

                  We already who they are trusting.

                  – –

                  This comment is sing that it is you who has lost the argument . . . wait . . . you never had any in the 1st place.

              • Pootles

                John Simpson, BBC, 13 May 2013: ‘you are twice as likely to be murdered if you are a white farmer than if you are a police officer’. Figures are hard to come by, but in his report Simpson noted that the numbers of white farmers have halved from 60,000 to 30,000 in 20 years, and gave one set of figures – of 2,000 white farmer murders, which, he noted, ‘were often particularly brutal’. See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22554709

              • Fergus Pickering

                Dear me, Amin, how you do go on. And so rude. Now shut up, there’s a good chap. You have nothing to say and you say it at length. Shoo now. Remember, if you can’t say nothing nice, then don’t say nothing at all.

                • Amin

                  Ha ha ha ha. . . so where did you come from? I think you will find it . . . I am neither rude and have plenty to say. . .

                  And what you will also find is . . . unlike you I do not have to resort to this pathetic rhetoric either. . . .

                  Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha . . . is that how pathetic racists are! Lol

                • Carl

                  Amin… you lost this argument at your send post in.

                  You’ve not made a single counter argument to anything that has been posted. You are just spewing liberal bile. And your grammar is atrocious

                • Amin

                  People who cry out like that are projecting. Hence, I win hands down.

                  – –

                  “You’ve not made a single counter argument to anything that has been posted.”

                  You’re clearly lying.

                  – –

                  “And your grammar is atrocious”

                  Vs

                  “And your grammer is atrociuous”

                  Is it? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha . . .

                  Sweetheart – I got your original comment through email.

        • Pootles

          Indeed, Jambo, see my response to Amin below: John Simpson, BBC, 13 May 2013: ‘you are twice as likely to be murdered if you are a white farmer than if you are a police officer’. Figures are hard to come by, but in his report Simpson noted that the numbers of white farmers have halved from 60,000 to 30,000 in 20 years, and gave one set of figures – of 2,000 white farmer murders, which, he noted, ‘were often particularly brutal’. See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22554709

          • Jambo25

            I’ve seen estimates of up to about 3,800 white farmers killed.

            • Pootles

              Yes, who knows ? Anyway, I thought Amin might like a reference that can’t, fairly, be taken to be a “right-wing” one.

          • Amin

            And you have posted this 1 google search everywhere – and since have had bit of a climb down!

            • Pootles

              What ? What ‘climb down’ ? I’ve simply been making the same point all along. Don’t fret, we just disagree. That happens. It’s not a problem.

              • Amin

                No you haven’t . . . “we just disagree” about what?

                I think you jumped in feet first . . .condemning me for something . . .without knowing why.

                – –

                Simple question . . . why would white deaths be any more important in SA then blacks or Asians[ mostly Indians]?

                If there is a genuine case for concern . . .like Zimbabwe . . .that is something else. For SA – that is not the case. . . and neither have I seen much evidence for it.

      • Graeme S

        Why don’t you set up a farm in South Africa and see how long you last …. black or white !! The mob would have your Gonads in a Heart Beat

        • Amin

          “…. black or white”

          Hence the problem isn’t racism.

  • Curnonsky

    Jimmy and Saint Nelson had a few things in common – a taste for Third World tyrants like Fidel Castro, and a general loathing for Israel and the U.S.

  • Guest

    ‘What age should he have been cut off at then: 206?’

    Sar-Chasm (noun): the gap between the author of sarcastic wit and the person that doesn’t get it.

  • Nohourwastedinthesaddle

    ‘cut off, alas, at the age of 95’.

    What age should he have been cut off at then: 206?

    As for being praised by Jimmy Carter of all people, I think that’s a gift that most classical liberals could live forever without.

    • Wessex Man

      Update, I was asked along with all the crowd at my club’s FA up game to stand and clap as a sign respect to a world leader and near Saint. I refused and was asked if I didn’t have legs! ha ha I don’t think!

      • http://ajbrenchley.com/ Nohourwastedinthesaddle

        FA, is that Football Association? Or what? I looked it up and all I found was the Freedom Acres swingers’ s=x club in San Bernardino, California. I’m pretty sure I can rule that FA out in your case.

        • Wessex Man

          ..!

      • Hexhamgeezer

        In the context of English football Mandela had zero relevance so the minutes applause was grandstanding bollox. Then again so were the cancellations and silences for the Princess of Hearts and the Queens mother.

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