Coffee House

Gender segregation: radical speakers cannot demand an audience that fits their prejudices

14 December 2013

12:00 PM

14 December 2013

12:00 PM

I spent much of Tuesday afternoon shivering outside the offices of Universities UK. I was there to protest their publication of guidelines which suggest segregated seating of men and women may be legally required where guest speakers demand it. It’s reassuring to learn that protest sometimes works: by Friday, the beleaguered body had shifted their position twice within 24 hours, thanks in part to criticism by Michael Gove and David Cameron.

But for all their fair words, I’m told the Cabinet have no plans for legislation to clarify the law. And I hear some members of the Islamic Education and Research Association, the group behind most confrontations over this issue, are agitating to launch a test case, heading to the European Court of Human Rights if necessary, to argue that their Islamist speakers do not enjoy freedom of speech unless they can speak to audiences segregated exactly how they like. Those who want Britain to stay in the EU, and committed to the ECHR, had better start hoping the ECHR come down on the side of common sense.

[Alt-Text]


iERA has long promoted radical Islamism in universities, as Stand for Peace documents. The group insists separate seating areas for men and women don’t disadvantage women, so presumably their top speaker’s defense of a husband’s right to administer ‘a light beating to bring your wife to goodness’ is consistent with their stated commitment to gender equality. I expect death by stoning for homosexuality and adultery are equal-opportunity punishments.

Universities UK are a less brash bunch. Meekly, their guidelines mumble of  ‘a hypothetical case involving an external speaker invited to talk about his orthodox religious faith, who had subsequently requested segregated seating areas for men and women’. They’ve since cut this case study from the online report, so journalists can’t find it. But this isn’t some hypothetical we can forget about: as Nick Cohen notes, a notorious incident occurred earlier this year at my university, UCL. Meanwhile, the University of Leicester’s Islamic Society has been in the spotlight for routinely running segregated events, including several with the iERA.

Most such Islamic societies are affiliated to the student union, receiving funding and support. As I told Radio 4 yesterday, as a member of the same student union, I have a right to engage fully with the intellectual life of the campus. The ECHR protects my right to education regardless of sex – and as a woman, even if I’m allowed the privilege of a seat, I don’t engage intellectually on equal terms at an event whose organisers think I need to be kept away from men in public. Just sit back and think about how a culture of segregated seating areas would affect the number of women asking questions in the Q&A sessions. My opponent on Radio 4 compared this to single sex toilets – I’d argue most of us come to lectures to expose our intellects, not our genitals.


Basing your very seating arrangements on the belief that ‘male’ and ‘female’ are the fundamental categories of human existence is deeply discriminatory to transgender or intersex students – these fenced-off areas offend by their very presence, even if mixed seating areas are also available. I don’t actually believe I have the right to avoid being offended in this way. Sometimes, my university atmosphere won’t suit me perfectly – and I’ll just have to live with it. But if we allow speakers to demand an audience that fits their prejudices, we embroider their vision of their rights just as indulgently.  As a practicing Christian, I hardly want to prevent students from praying together. But we can’t let iERA define free speech.


More Spectator for less. Stay informed leading up to the EU referendum and in the aftermath. Subscribe and receive 15 issues delivered for just £15, with full web and app access. Join us.



Show comments
  • Jackthesmilingblack

    How long are you going to put up with this Islamic BS, Britisher pals?

  • Andy M

    “radical speakers cannot demand an audience that fits their prejudices”

    You’d think this was obvious. It really is a sad time for our country now that things have gotten so bad that people even feel the need to write articles such as these. How did we get into this state?

  • David Booth.

    You will never placate religious fundamentalist, the more you give into them the more their demands will escalate. Feeding this beast’s appetite by appeasement will result in the hand that feed it being devoured along with the rest of the torso.

  • Bonkim

    Self inflicted – it beats me why anyone would want to attend meetings of bigoted Islamic groups in the first place and then complain they are segregated.

    Also why should students unions organise such meetings.

    Ban religion from Universities.

  • Uncle Mort

    The Washington Post
    published Ruud Koopman’s telephone study to find how widespread Islamic
    fundamentalist views are in Europe he conducted a survey of 9,000
    respondents in the Netherlands,
    Germany, Belgium, France, Austria, and Sweden and interviewed both
    Turkish and Moroccan immigrants as well as a comparison group of
    Christians.

    Here are his findings:

    75% believe there is only one possible interpretation of the Koran.

    65% believe their religious rules are more important than the laws of the country that they live in.

    58% Do not want homosexual friends

    54% believe that the west is out to destroy Muslim culture

    45% believe that Jews cannot be trusted.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2013/12/13/how-widespread-is-islamic-fundamentalism-in-western-europe/?tid=hpModule_949fa2be-8691-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394

    Anyone who now believes that Islam can integrate let alone assimilate with Western Democracy are quite frankly delusional.

    • Bonkim

      What did you expect – that is all predictable without any survey.

      • Uncle Mort

        I agree, but its info like this which can be used to silence the bullsh*t excuses from Muslim apologists.

        • Mike

          Unfortunately it doesn’t silence those deniers of the truth as they’re brain washed by their despicable & dysfunctional religion !

    • Mike

      As I said, Islam is a cancer on society !

  • Rossspeak

    I have just posted on the Torygraph – and will repeat my point here is that I submit the ambivalent ( at best) reaction of our Politicians and Legal system to the issue of gender segregation – let alone the outlandish provisions of Sharia law in our (so called) free,secular and democratic society are largely due to the fear of ” Islamic backlash” a la Rushdie.

    I would speculate on the reaction of these same Politicians if a speaker from an extreme evangelical Christian sect, based in the (still) prejudiced “deep south” of the USA – insisted on a pre-condition that Blacks sat at the back.

    The “moral outrage” would be deafening!

    • Bonkim

      All religions believe theirs is the one and only true God – so nothing new.

      All religions are also superstitions and one wonders how intelligent people can get carried away by superstitions.

      If you don’t like discrimination and bigotry don’t attend their meetings.

  • Ben Cobley

    A contrary view from me: that our political class – and Labour in
    particular – is showing quite startling double standards in this gender
    segregation business. Labour for example practises gender segregation
    widely, far from not tolerating it:
    http://afreeleftblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/labours-double-standards-on-gender.html

  • http://twitter.com/True_Belle True_Belle

    A case of he who pays the piper , calls the tune..
    Who did you say are funding our great universities?

    • FuglydeQuietzapple

      I gather students are intended to do so, but after they’ve assessed their want of suitable qualities. Just about the worst arrangement.

  • Teacher

    How is segregation of the sexes any different from apartheid? The left did not support that.

  • mrsjosephinehydehartley

    test

    The point is that people may voluntarily use the public space according to gendered seating arrangements. We can choose to use the male or female toilet if we wish – though most ladies go in the ladies and most men go in the mens. This has not needed a court type scene to test.

    Furthermore, in my view it’s wrong to think it’s right to deliver services (public or otherwise) to individual members of the general public, including women, by order of some court. Purveyors of preposterous and pretentious pretexts, however popular, should beware.

    • Eddie

      I think you’ll find men would not be allowed to go into women’s toilets, unless they want to be suspended from their jobs or arrested…

  • mrsjosephinehydehartley

    Is it too scary?

  • mrsjosephinehydehartley

    O come on. Don’t be so soft.

  • Robert Forrest

    Times change. 1965. Second year of medical school. Medical students were segregated by gender in the dissecting room. Dental students, who didn’t dissect below the chest, weren’t.

    • mrsjosephinehydehartley

      The point is that people may voluntarily use the public space according to gendered seating arrangements. We can choose to use the male or female toilet if we wish – though most ladies go in the ladies and most men go in the mens. This has not needed a court type scene to test.

      Furthermore, in my view it’s wrong to think it’s right to deliver services (public or otherwise) to individual members of the general public, including women, by order of some court. Purveyors of preposterous and pretentious pretexts, however popular, should beware.

  • Ricky Strong

    The only conclusion I can draw is that many Islamic men have either small penesis or are secretly gay. There can be no other rationale for their utter hatred of women.

  • the viceroy’s gin

    I see the Speccie kids have made sure to get Call Me Dave’s and Little Boy Gove’s names into the first paragraph of this piece. I guess the Cameroonian Speccie has been recruited to show the Camerluvvies “standing up” to the RoP extremists, is that it?

    But it’s just a show, as usual. I think we know the real deal here, and what the Camerloons think about unfettered immigration, to include those immigrants who refuse to blend themselves in with mainstream norms. The Camerloons embrace it and them, all of them, and all of the dysfunction.

    • Kennybhoy

      Jesus wept but you sound mair like David Lindsay with each passing day you sad man…

      • the viceroy’s gin

        Not quite sure what you’re jabbering about now, but you don’t seem to be very perceptive about the posters here, so go on with your bad self, lad.

        • Kennybhoy

          Just as Lindsay has to include an irrelevant and malign reference to Jews in every post so you have to include an irrel vant and, if not perhaps malign, negative reference to Cameroons! Same obsessive psychological tendency.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            Well, I’m sure all are grateful that your inebriated psychoanalysis is being provided here free of charge, lad.

  • rob232

    We don’t really know what we are up against.
    The Islamic world wields enormous financial power and this is why such a troublesome minority is pandered to in this way. There are a lot of grateful stomachs especially among the ‘trendy liberal’ establishment. This is why they are so eager to fawn over these people and defend such ridiculous exigencies.

  • rob232

    There is nothing to be done.
    The pandering to the Islamic world which takes place in British society is because of Islam’s enormous financial power. Why else would such a small troublesome minority be tolerated by so many? It’s all about money and you can’t fight against it.

  • Bob-B

    It seems that Islamists think that women are all temptresses and
    men all wild animals with no self control and hence they must be kept apart to prevent terrible things from happening. Islamists also think that both
    women and men were created by Allah. So they seem to be committed to the
    view that Allah did a pretty poor job in this area.

    • Alexandrovich

      Not really Bob. They’re just extremely possessive about all their chattels which, somewhere near the bottom of the list, includes women.

    • Penny

      They do seem rather preoccupied with, and screechy about, anything to do with sexuality. Their concept of relationships seems not to be in love and friendship territory so often as it’s straying into the physical and dutiful.

  • swatnan

    As I’ve said before, hey should either take it oer leave (it).
    There can be no further discussion.
    (I don’t know about you but I am getting pretty fed up that every day I open my paper or switch on the radio and I hear incidents of Islamofacists in Mali or Nigeria or Northern Ireland, committing attrocities. You cannot appease these nutters. We have to declare a War on Islamofacism and take them on and defeat them. There is no other way. The Worlds resouces, in money and time seems to be spent on appeasing them, and its a complete waste of time.

    • Chris

      We cant appease the nutters, we won’t appease nutters. That’s why we won’t take the proposed laws on segregation seriously. That’s why when a group of people ran round London imposing sharia law they were arrested. The war has already been declared on what you call Islamification, by a democratic society that includes Muslims. I don’t know why this is so hard to comprehend. It seems we’re fighting the oppression through religion with oppression through fear. That’s going to get us nowhere.

  • David Ganz

    Congratulations on your protest. Universities UK is an association of vicechancellors which asserts that it speaks for UK universities. It has no mandate to speak for either staff or students, and its gleeful support of the marketing of universities, together with its silence on the selling off of student loans to private finance companies, makes it clear whom it does represent. Another self perpetuating oligarchy masquerading as a representative body, and perpetuating the most spineless collaboration with Browne, Willetts and other emasculators of higher education (except for private profit)

  • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

    “radical speakers cannot demand an audience that fits their prejudices”

    They can demand what they like; the problem is when they are appeased!

    • Uncle Brian

      Gender segregation: radical speakers cannot demand an audience that fits their prejudices
      Whoever put this title on the piece — whether it was Kate Maltby herself or somebody at the Spectator — is guilty of a terminological inexactitude. Radical speakers can, and do, demand it, and will presumably go on demanding it. What Kate is arguing is that university administrators ought not to comply with those demands. but that’s not what the title says.

  • Mike

    Islam is a cancer on society and blatantly discriminatory towards women and I pray that any militant Islamist who want to run segregated public meetings is dealt with the full force of the equality laws.

    Anyway, Isn’t it a crime to force segregation of the sexes that perhaps the CPS could look into and fire a warning shot over these scumbags that condone treating women as second class citizens, stone adulterers and murder gay people !

    • Newcombe

      Islam is a cancer

      It is this kind of talk that alienates the wast swathe of our peaceful, tolerant and well integrated Muslim citizens. No wonder they feel pressurised to get radicalised and go all Jihadi on our arses. It is this kind of talk that made 18, otherwise well educated pious Muslims to fly into tall buildings in New York.

      So please, stop it!

      • Newcombe

        Now look what’s just happened. Some Middlesborough fans have gone and torn up the Koran. I mean I ask you, is this any way to behave towards millions of our peaceful Muslim citizens?

        Happy now Mike, Ms Maltby and all the other dislikers of Islam?

        http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/middlesbrough-fans-rip-up-quran-2923956

        • FrenchNewsonlin

          Punishable by stoning to death surely. The report refers to this heinous behaviour as “hate crime” and the club pledges to eradicate “racism”. More Orwellian word abuse.

        • Mike

          And meanwhile hot off the press in Brick Lane, the East End of London we have that well known radical Islamic, Anjem Choudary leading a Sharia vigilante squad of 40 militants threatening shop owners from legally selling their alcohol. And I thought it was an offence to threaten people with violence but the spineless government will just turn the other cheek.

          Ah, yes, the compassionate side of Islam in all its glory !

        • Fergus Pickering

          They tore up a book. Is that a crime?

        • John

          The Koran is a work of hate literature, quite akin to Mein Kamph in tone.

          It posits a manichean division of humanity into the ‘pure’ and ‘impure’ and thus espouses views similar to what we find in nazism.

          So when someone tears up a copy of Mein Kamph, was the act prompted by an irrational hatred of nazis, or simply disgust at the contents of the ‘work’?

      • Chris

        Of course. Its our fault. Only muslims can claim victimhood aftermurder, aparthied r*pe of orhans etc etc. Islam problem is it is a set of ideologies with now self respect and no honour.

      • Mike

        Actually, its the vast swathe of tolerant and integrated Muslims in the country that are under threat from the extremist in their midst not the truisms that I’ve stated. They dare not voice their concerns under threat of bullying or direct force from the militant Islamics just like the ones demanding enforced segregation when they come over to the UK.

        We banned Gert Wilders from coming in from Holland and we should ban these intolerant Islamic nut jobs as well.

        There’s been a pitiful handful of Islamic figureheads who’ve had the bottle to speak up against the militants and I include the MCB as a bunch of apologist militants as well. Whilst few within the Muslim communities have the courage to try and ‘cut’ this cancer out, nothing will change. In the meantime, others should still highlight the negative side of Islam for progressives to work on and bring it into the 21st century.

        • Newcombe

          We mustn’t ban anyone, Mike. We live in a democracy – we reslove our differences by debate and reasoning. Geert Wilders is just a human being and like us all, prone to straying, misguided even. He has totally misunderstood Islam for what it is.

          But I don’t blame him. Instaed of Islamophobic Robert Spencer that he buddies up with, he just needs to sit down and watch more BBC and read more Guardian or even text books that our kids are taught from at school on Islam, you’ll see, it will bring a world of change in him.

          • Noa

            Wonderful!

            I’m developing sore ribs from laughter as I read your posts! Keep up the great work Newcombe!

            • Kennybhoy

              “Keep up the great work Newcombe!”

              Aye but it must be tiring and can be dangerous both to the author and the reader.

              “But though it was easy to twist one’s mind into the diabolical attitude, it was not fun, or not for long. The strain produced a sort of spiritual cramp. The world into which I had to project myself while I spoke through Screwtape was all dust, grit, thirst, and itch. Every trace of beauty, freshness and geniality had to be excluded. It almost smothered me before I was done. It would have smothered my readers if I had prolonged it.”

              C S Lewis – Excerpted from the prologue to “Screwtape Proposes a Toast”

              Take care Newcombe.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                …maybe you’ve had more than one too many, laddie.

                • Kennybhoy

                  Oh ffs sake vcg even Noa, who incidentally heartily loathes yours truly, understood the specific sentiment expressed yah silly auld fart!

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …so did he have one too many as well, laddie?

                • Noa

                  “…Noa, who incidentally heartily loathes yours truly…”
                  You mistake the reflecton in your mirror for my view of you, perhaps.
                  Bearing grudges over past conflicts is why we as a species are in the mess we are now.

          • Mike

            I agree we mustn’t ban anyone but unfortunately the powers that be cherry pick who they want to ban. Islamic militants like Anjem Chowdary have never had their collar felt for hate speech whilst Nick Griffin had his felt after the BBC stitched him up. Not a level playing field, thats the problem.

          • Alexsandr

            Islamophobia? a phobia is an irrational fear of something. I think being afraid of islam, in view of the Korans entreaties to kill the kaffir and the infidel, is a perfectly reasonable fear. So you are using the wrong word.

          • Kennybhoy

            “But though it was easy to twist one’s mind into the diabolical attitude, it was not fun, or not for long. The strain produced a sort of spiritual cramp. The world into which I had to project myself while I spoke through Screwtape was all dust, grit, thirst, and itch. Every trace of beauty, freshness and geniality had to be excluded. It almost smothered me before I was done. It would have smothered my readers if I had prolonged it.”

            C S Lewis – Excerpted from the prologue to “Screwtape Proposes a Toast”

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …and repeating yourself now, as well?

              You best go lie down, lad.

        • Alexsandr

          That will explain why we didnt see mass demonstrations from moderate muslims chanting ‘not in our name’ after the butchering of Lee Rigby then?

      • Fergus Pickering

        Ah! It’s loose talk thst turns muslims into murderers. Got it!

  • Denis_Cooper

    If Islam ever achieved the dominance it seeks in this country then segregated seating would be one of the least of your problems as a woman. It’s time all women woke up to serious threat it poses to them and to their female descendants and considered how they can counter and neutralise that threat. And homosexuals as well, the general tolerance they now take more or less for granted would disappear if Islam ever became dominant.

    • Newcombe

      Denis please don’t say these unkind words. If Islam was like what you describe, then how do you account for all those women who have happily married Muslim men (Ok, I grant you, many like Jemima Khan are now divorced, but that is another story) in their droves and many others who haven’t but have still embraced Islam with the openness of their amble bosoms? Hmm?

      • Mike

        Rose tinted spectacles methinks !

      • Fergus Pickering

        Many women are bloody fools. I think they suppose muslim men are sexier.

        • Noa

          A circumscribed view.

          • Newcombe

            Or even a circumcised one!

      • Noa

        Many such women are genuinely happier in a burqua or hijab, as are many men who have seen them without one.

  • Smithersjones2013

    But if we allow speakers to demand an audience that fits their
    prejudices, we embroider their vision of their rights just as
    indulgently.

    Change that too

    But if we allow authors to demand an event that fits their
    prejudices, we embroider their vision of their rights just as
    indulgently.

    Its a case of Pot, Kettle Black

    Sadly Maltby is little better than those she condemns. Why are her values superior to those of anybody else? Frankly her attitude is just as offensive. Her efforts would be better focussed fighting the real inequalities and crimes committed against women rather than providing propaganda which demonstrates how intolerant the crusading Christian (it really was stupid to bring her religion into the argument) infidel (women) are.

    Nobody is forced to attend these events. If you don’t like what they represent boycott them..

    I look forward to Maltby further proposing to scrap gender segregation at Wimbledon and other sports and also look forward to her calling for the closure of organisations such as sorority.org for surely if segregation driven by men is offensive to women then segregation driven by women is equally offensive (except men tend not to be so petty – oops my own sexism slipped out there).

    • FrenchNewsonlin

      You appear to miss the point. UUK guidance refers to public space on university campuses to some extent funded by taxpayers. Islamic-imposed apartheid should be rejected for obvious reasons in a space open to all. The question to be asked is, are universities reverting back to the Dark Ages in their teaching of today’s students?

      • Mark Myword

        You are absolutely right. If a society pays for a private space, in a university or not, they should be able to impose conditions. But that is not the case here. These student societies use university facilities without charge, tax payer funded, to put forward their point of view. I defend their right to do so. However, by definition these are public meetings in the public space and must be open to all without preconditions. It makes no difference if islamic student wish to be segregated, if my wife and I turn up to one of these meetings we expect to be able to sit together. Incidentally, the segregation that has been reported almost certainly breaches the Charters of the unversities involved.

  • James Strong

    I am pleased that this is in the news and being widely discussed.
    The more people learn about the true nature of Islam the more they will reject it, I believe.
    In Islamic societies non-muslims do not have the same rights as muslims. For readers who don’t know that, or doubt it, please find out about: dhimmis, dhimmitude and jizya.
    Muslim women do not have the same rights as muslim men. Their rights of inheritance, divorce and status in court are all inferior.
    Islam mandates mutilation and execution as punishments for some crimes.
    There are other very negative aspects of this oppressive and violent belief system. Find out about it and peacefully oppose its spread and influence in the UK.

  • James Strong

    1)There is no right not to be offended.
    2)The right to free speech of a mohammedan speaker is not being infringed if he is not allowed to require segregation by gender. He can speak elsewhere and find a way not to infringe others’ right of free association.

    • Mike

      He can f*** off back to where he came from as far as I’m concerned as has no right to demand segregation in the UK.

      • Newcombe

        Tut tut, Mike. I was wondering to whom he was referring in his piece in this very magazine when that brilliant Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi (who, incidenally is repeatedly being insulted by many unkind commentators bringing up as they are his minor expense claim indescretion) when he referred to the hard right who favour mass deportation. Now I know.

        • Alexsandr

          that will be ‘I fiddle my expenses’ Mr Zahawi then? Oh he paid the money back when found out. thats OK then.

  • http://www.figurewizard.com/ figurewizard

    If someone enjoys a drink in the evening, don’t visit or emigrate to Saudi Arabia. If on the other hand men and women sitting together is regarded as offensive, stay away from Britain.

    • Charles Mortdecai

      “If someone enjoys a drink in the evening, don’t visit or emigrate to Saudi Arabia”.

      Or East London, for that matter.

    • Noa

      Unmarried men and women are not allowed to congregate, meet, walk or talk together in Saudi Arabia or most indeed other muslim countries, and are liable to arrest and imprisonment if they do.
      We should implacably oppose the threat that islam and the stealth introduction of the sharia means for liberty.

  • Newcombe

    If the guest speaker demand it, you don’t like it, then don’t go. As long as it is voluntary, I don’t see the problem. It is not as if women are made to sit on the floor or at the back. The author also forgets that many women (Muslims and non-Muslims) prefer gender segregation, so you also have to look at it from their point of view – in that these women will not participate in gatherings where men and women are all sitting together, thereby, well, denying their human rights. So in a perverse way, gender segregation kind of promotes equality! (blimey, I can’t belive I just wrote that!) – But you see my point?

    Gender segregation is practiced in mosques and Islamic schools, both funded by the tax payer in some fashion or another, yet people don’t compalin about that. When was the last time you and your motley crew demonstarted outside those establishments, Ms Maltby?

    Look, the fact of the matter is that as Europe’s Muslim population increases, we must allow their cultural preferences the way they would normally practice in other Islamic countries, otherwise I would contest that we’re not being fair. If we are known for anything, it is our sense of fair play, tolerance and democracy – all of which would be undermined by our obstinance to values that are hampering community cohesion. Frankly I believ it is very intolerant of us and not at all in keeping with our egalerian culture to deny people the way they want to conduct their business – and who knows where this may lead – can you imagine the isolation, hatreda and persecuted these people would feel if we behave in this way, no wonder the Muslim community feels under threat all the time, no wonder many young British men become radicalised leave these shores to fight Jihad.

    No, I say. Ms Kate Maltby and her ilk are a danger to our society and their behaviour is utterly contemptible. After all what is the difference between us and say…the Saudis, Egyptians, Hamas or Paksitanis, who unfortunately do show an occassional intolerance towards people of other faiths.

    We must stay resolute to our principles of tolerance, fair play and justice, even if means that we turn a blind eye to something that we many, because of our prejudices, feel uncomfortable with.

    So, I would like to appeal to my Muslim brithers and sisters, please do not feel bad about what Ms Maltby, Nick Cohen et al are writing in this magazine, believe me when I say that they are in a minority far right wing who no one listens to anyway. I promise you, given time, they too will come around.

    Pease!

    • starfish

      You reall dont understand ntegration do you? For you integration means everyone else has to accept your ‘cultural norms’ yet you have to make no concessions at all

      • Tom M

        I’ve been saying just that all week. Look at whose culture is under the spotlight whilst the “Islamic speaker” spoke and his culture sails serenely on totally unperturbed.
        Looks like a case of movable object meets irresistable force.

    • James Strong

      Unbelievable.
      You say that mohemmedans feel ‘under threat’ when all that is happening is that their demands are not immediately acceded to.

    • Paul W

      This is the west – various disparate minorities have struggled since the enlightenment to get to what is still an imperfect, but improving situation.

      Don’t try to impose medieval standards on our way of life that have at best a hint of intolerance and at worst more than a hint brutality embedded within them.

    • Alexsandr

      what about Muslims ‘principles of tolerance, fair play and justice’ They are ina western liberal democracy. Where we are supposed to treat people fairly and equally. If they dont like that then find another country.

    • Denis_Cooper

      Brilliant satire.

      Or, putting that another way, the work of an agent provocateur.

      • Kennybhoy

        Aye but…

        “I gazed into the mirror with all the horror of Dorian Grey, confronting his tell-tale portrait. There, staring at me, was the pallid, flabby-mouthed face of a crook. Was this, I asked myself, what four years of ‘black’ had done to Denis Sefton Delmer?”

        Sefton Delmer was a British World War II black propaganda expert.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …you’ve had at least one too many tonight, lad .

          • Kennybhoy

            Och ffs…

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …yes, that’s about the size of it.

    • foxoles

      So, according to you, those who don’t like segregation should lump it because they have the choice not to go.

      But if those who don’t go, choose not to go because they can’t tolerate mixed audiences, someone is ‘thereby, well, denying their human rights’.

      Incredible.

    • Noa

      “Peace!”
      Is this a clue? Are you really Pat Condell writing the script for a new You tube video?
      Even if you are Rod Liddle will be taking a dim view, he likes to think he does the islamic satire around the Coffee House!

  • WatTylersGhost

    At some point we have to ignore law and logic and simply follow what we know to be right regardless of the fact that some over sensitive ethnic or religious group might be offended. The drip-drip changes that Islam is forcing on British law, life and culture must be stopped and reversed, if not we will be forced down a path towards a lifestyle similar to that of Islamabad or Tehran.

    There are some very clever and articulate speakers with impeccable English accents that argue the Islamists’ cause, but these people must be recognised as an insidious, dangerous threat to our future.

    • Newcombe

      Law and logic are the very foundation of our tolerant and democratic society, and you want us to abandon that!?

      Look, if the Telegraph editorial is anything to go by, this gender segregation has nothing to do with Islam. Yes, this is what it says:

      “Separating men and women students denies the equality of the sexes and is not a reflection of Islamic teaching”

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/telegraph-view/10513671/No-place-for-segregation-at-our-universities.html

      I’m sure even Ms Maltby (despite this intolerant piece) and other university types schooled here in Britain, would argue that Islam is essentially a religion of peace, equity and tolerance towards others. After all doesn’t it say in Koran to be kind and nice towards other Muslims?

      At the end of the day we must ask ourselves what sort of society we want to live in – if not like Islamabad or Tehran (your examples, not mine), then lets not behave like them. People in those Islamic countries you mention are just like us, remember that. I’m sure if Ms Maltby were to go there and live, she’d be most welcome. There is no force in Islam to do anything.

      Please, thorw away the dark glasses of prejudice and look at the glory that multi-cultural society has to offer.

      • ThisIsTheEnd

        I’m always amazed how quickly some “defenders” of western values want to jettison western values. Because Islam. Good grief.

        • Denis_Cooper

          He’s just taking the piss.

          • ThisIsTheEnd

            Thank you. Hard to tell nowadays

      • Mike

        Yep, some would argue that Islam is essentially a religion of peace, equity and tolerance towards others.

        Religion of peace – The borders of bloody Islam where genocide has been happening for the past few years if not longer between different Muslim groups.

        Equity – The discrimination & subjugation of women under their control.

        Tolerance towards others – Death threats and serious penalties for gay people !

        Rather difficult to justify Islam in apologists terms !!!!

        • Newcombe

          You are only looking at things from your own prejudice. This only makes you look bad.

          Learn to love thy neighbour, isn’t this what Bible teaches? Ask any Muslim, he will tell you that Jesus was indeed a Muslim well before he became a Jew and then a Christian – so he had form for apostacy and changed the meaning of Islam that was given to him by Allah.

          Ultimately, what you see in Islam is a distilled version of Christianity, my friend. So a little less prejudice and a little more healing. Please.

          • Julieann Carter

            You’ve got to be taking the piss!

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …yes, and it’s a full measure, too!

          • McClane

            How can Jesus have been a Muslim before he became a Jew then a Christian? Mohammed wasn’t born until 570AD. I asked a Muslim friend. He said, Jesus? A Muslim? and laughed.

            How can Islam be a distilled version of Christianity? Muslims pray 5 times a day. If you’re RC you pray on Sundays and on Holy Days of Obligation. If you’re CoE you probably don’t pray at all. I understand from a Greek Orthodox friend that attending mass once every three months is enough to save you from eternal damnation.

            • Newcombe

              My very well construced response to your comment, where I demonstarted and provided links to Muslim education sites where this very view is explored in great detail was censored by the Mods. I had also mentioned Lord Melvyn Bragg’s much lauded documentary that he had made on this subject as well.

              Can’t imagine why they’d censor it, still, I guess they know best.

              • Kennybhoy

                Nice one! Had me going for a second or two there man! rotflmfao

              • Alexandrovich

                Shame they don’t run the bilge pumps for all the other effluent you’ve discharged here.

              • itbeso

                “Muslim education”
                Oxymoron alert

            • James Strong

              Newcombe is taking the piss in his comments, I hope and believe.
              But it is true that in mohemmaden theory Jesus was a muslim. Not a mohammedan, perhaps, because the pae****ile ‘p***het’ had not been born, but a muslim nonetheless because he acknowledged the oneness of allah and prophesied allah’s faith. So says the ‘revealed’ book.
              Your muslim friend is is quite simply wrong, in terms of islamic theory.
              Is he, in fact, a muslim or was he just born into a muslim family and society?
              But further, in mohammedan theory every new-born baby is born a muslim. In strict terms those not born into mohemmedan families who later choose to ’embrace islam’ are not converts, they are reverts because they are reverting to their natural religion.
              You might think all these beliefs are ludicrous, but that is what mohammedan theory says.
              And be careful if your friend is a true-believing mohammedan, because if he is then he is not allowed to be truly your friend.

          • Mike

            The excess’s of Christianity in the 16th century weren’t cured by doing nothing and pretending everything is all right. You’re probably right that Islam is a ‘version’ of Christianity, around 500 years ago when Christianity was fighting itself between Catholic and Protestant and non believers were ostracized and killed.

            It took Christianity a long time and a lot of force & wars before the unsavory elements were compartmentalized and removed from the state & culture and only personal religion was left.

            Islam in many countries is the state and by definition the culture and that’s why its causes so many conflicts just as Christianity did 500 years ago.

            Prejudice and healing have nothing to do with it whilst religion rules the state and culture !

          • Erictheowl

            Whatever you are on, please can I have some – sounds like a lot of fun!

        • Chris

          Almost all religions have been used as a vessel for oppression and aggression. Some atheists believe all religion should be banned, but that’s fascism. Look at western society, Christianity, say, is not the tool of suppression it was in the past. With the first gay marriages finally happening next March for example, it’s clear to see there’s some distance left to go. So even though you would say I’m an apologist, I’d argue that I just want Islam to see the same modernisation that western religions have seen. Hate preachers want to slow that progress down by division and far right groups do their bit to further the gulf of understanding. I want to see young Muslims have the ability to come out as gay, women deciding for themselves whether or not to cover their face in public or even decide they don’t want to be a Muslim anymore.

          • Chris

            ohhh I missed the bit where we suggested Jesus was a Muslim. I suppose it depends on what book you believe. Some books will tell you he didn’t even exist. In fact in historical documents make very little mention of his existence. So we could argue that he was really into Nickleback and he read the Mail daily. It’s best if we don’t get bogged down with that one, cos it isn’t helpful to either side of the argument, really. (and that’s debunking somebody I mostly agree with. it’s all about altruism)

            • Fergus Pickering

              It as Mohamme who didn’t exist, surely. Pure invention..

          • Mike

            Problem is that whilst militants like Anjem Chowdary are allowed to get away with radicalizing fellow Muslims then the moderate Muslims are intimidated and prevented from deciding for themselves !

          • Alexandrovich

            ” I want to see young Muslims have the ability to come out as gay.”
            Well I hope you’ve got two hundred odd years to spare.

      • WatTylersGhost

        I was taking your words at face value until I read “the bastions of our free press the BBC and the Guardian” – nice ironic piece, thanks for your support.

      • Noa

        Thank you Newcombe, brilliant, biting satire.

    • Noa

      In the controversy of separation of the sexes at university islamic
      meetings, as with the leftist complaints against the ‘Pikey’ twitting
      Jack Dromey, accusing him of racist hate crime under the mad laws his own
      wife promulgated, we are starting to see the deep ideological fissures
      open between islamic fundamentalists and their useful idiots of the
      Left.
      As these shipwrecks between allies of convenience on the rocks of their respective dogmas occur ever more frequently we can enjoy the magical spectacle of our oppressors destroying each other.

      • Chris

        I don’t believe in left and right, it’s more powerful vs powerless for me. but I am often told that I am left wing when I suggest that the best way to tackle extremism of the sort is through the help of the Muslim community rather than telling them all to go home, so I’ll entertain the idea for now. The fact that I see Muslims as people somehow comes with the notion that I will, or have become ‘islamified’. I am an atheist, always will be. So when there is a proposed law to accept segregation, or the introduction of sharia law, and other extremes, I will oppose them. We live in a democracy, and a secular one at that. So it is possible to oppose laws suggested by a fraction of a community without opposing the community on the whole. Have you ever considered the possibility that the UK appeals to many Muslims because of democracy, and secularism as being an ideal place to practice their faith freely? …you know, without segregation, sharia law, public stoning. Your “us and them” attitude isn’t helpful, because many Muslims would also oppose the “drip drip changes to the law” you mentioned, along with myself.

        • Noa

          Your views and criticisms perfectly encapsulate the iconoclasm of the Left, which is so described because its philosophy and thoughts originate from the ideas of Marx, Leninism, Gramsci and the Frankfurt school, to combine with the ‘long march’ Fabian socialism of the Labour party.

          Such thinking is the antithesis of my own principles; which embrace individual freedom, liberty and enterprise and a minimum of intereference from an officious overbearing state.
          So I ask you in return: have you ever considered why so many muslims seek to violently promulgate their religion at the expense of others? Why do the peaceful muslims to who you allude not speak out to criticise their jidhadist muslim brothers?
          Why is it, if they truly wish to integrate that there so many muslim organisations fail to robustly condemn the myriad acts of terrorism committed in the UK and elsewhere in the name of islam?
          Why do muslims choose not to integrate but to separate themselves physically and cultually from thesocieties which host them?
          Why should the culture which you claim so many wish to embrace be required to change its values?
          Where, in fact is your evidence that the many democratic muslims of which you write actually exists?
          Without the proof for your claims you will continue to appear no more than a kuffar, the victim of Taqiyya and Kitman, to fundamendalists a useful idiot, to be disposed of when your purpose has been served.

          • Chris

            Well firstly, I don’t vote Labour, and while I am interested in Marxism, history tells us it’s flawed doesn’t it? I’m interested in a lot of political beliefs, some of which would be identified as right wing. You see me holding a guitar, which comes with the obvious pipe dream of being far richer than most people. See my belief, is that any one belief is flawed, and it would require a diverse range of ideologies to truly speak for the needs of a diverse (i’m not talking ethnic) population. Society is dependent on your belief as it is mine. That’s called Altruism. You cannot tell me what my political belief is on a few comments just as I cannot tell you what yours is. Even after you’ve given a little detail, I suspect I cant debunk you’re argument based on that. Others would assume you to be a fascist, or dismiss you purely on being right wing. That sort of stubbornness irks me. If we argued over our fundamental beliefs we’d be here all night and we’d never change each other’s minds.

            Most of your questions imply that I flat out deny the threat of extremism, when I would be stupid to. Most of my post will be arguing ‘well they do’. The truth is that some ‘do’ and some ‘don’t’. My whole spiel is that through understanding, and a flat out opposition to extremism, British society can influence Islam rather. But without tolerating Islam, Maintaining a division we let extremism thrive. To an extremist, I am not a useful idiot. The last things extremists want is for Muslims to integrate with the rest of society. They want us at each other’s throats. The attack on Lee Rigby last year confirms that when we see the killers acting as caricatures of Islam in court. They thrive off the hate. So when it comes to hate, precision is the key.

            1) (why don’t they speak out) So many do, if you look you’ll find opposition. There’s lots of mosques that preach Modern Islam, tolerance et al. Many Muslims do speak out, you only need to check twitter after an incident of extremist Islam. Taking the Lee Rigby murder for example. The media (which isn’t just the BBC) was full of spokespeople offering support to his family,

            2) (why don’t they integrate) I hate the idea of faith schools, as I assume you do and suspect you assume I don’t. Isolation from mainstream British culture can only go wrong, whether they teach tolerance or hate. For kids educated in these schools, integration must be a challenge. Some will, some won’t. But I think this is the real answer to that question. The divide on both sides is sown in at childhood. That’s not to say there are plenty of Muslims that manage to overcome that hindrance,

            3) (why should a culture change it’s values) Why would somebody leave say, Saudi Arabia for UK? It’s obvious, people don’t want to be oppressed by their religion.

            4)where is my evidence? There’s an article in the Huff about British Muslims who speak out against extremism becoming targets for Al Shabaab I’d like you to read. Not because it proves you wrong, but because it proves both of us right.

            As for useful idiots. Want to know what I think there? Choudary’s useful idiot is the mainstream media. Remember a few years back when he was all over the papers and TV over some sort of demo? That was a massive publicity stunt. Despite the obvious lack of planning the media kept letting him sit on the sofa and talk to the country about something that might happen, while claiming that it was just a publicity stunt. Turns out the media were right, and this figure that was largely unknown despite being regarded as a joke got a shed load of free publicity. Now he is an important figure, regarded by some as a face of Islam. It’s a sad fact that the opposition rarely gets the air time. “Millions of Muslims living just like British people” just isn’t sexy enough to print. This is obviously damaging, besides giving a jaded view to outsiders like yourself, it’s far more damaging to people within Islam who believe that’s how they should be behaving. Extremists are the enemy, not all British Muslims. You’re letting them win.

        • Fergus Pickering

          If they would, then why don’t they? Because they are afriad, that’s why.

        • Austin Barry

          “Have you ever considered the possibility that the UK appeals to many Muslims because of democracy, and secularism as being an ideal place to practice their faith freely? ”

          Er, no, Chris: that’s why they want to Islamify it.

          Your naivety would be rather touching were it not shared by our political elites – and their naivety will be the death of us.

        • David Booth.

          It is a requirement placed on all Muslims to live in a Muslim State and if you don’t live in a Muslim State you must change the State into a Muslim one. So you being a Secularist won’t count for a rats f**t Chris.

        • Bandmomma

          I have considered and concluded that the UK appeals to many Muslims because of the many generous benefits available to them whilst being free to undermine our secular society!

      • Charles Mortdecai

        Jack Dromey shared a stage with the notorious “Lord Ahmed” at the Birmingham Milad event where Ahmed was calling for the arrest of people who blasphemed against the Prophet Muhammad. As one of the few English speakers at this event, Dromey made no objection to this. He then went on to lament the contribution of Birmingham’s Islamic community in what I can only describe as one of the most pathetic examples of bootlicking I have ever seen.

        It brings me great joy to watch him suffering under the oppression of his wife’s laws.

        • FrenchNewsonlin

          They both get a deserved pie pasting in the Daily Mail today, along with a few other dubious characters.

          • telemachus

            To me a pasting in the Daily Mail is one of the more ringing endorsements one would wish

            • FrenchNewsonlin

              You might be less flippant if you read the article and the serious allegations therein.

        • Noa

          Mordecai, Do you have a link to the event? Then we could all enjoy…

        • Colonel Mustard

          But sadly the same laws oppress everyone and even more sadly it is a Conservative MP seeking their enforcement in this case. I am no fan of Dromey but really! Schadenfreude is no substitute for lamenting the loss of our English freedoms.

          • Noa

            I’m hopeful that his underlying purpose is to ridicule them and so led to their destruction. To that end the excoriation trial and imprisonment of Jack Dromey would be a worthy sacrifice.

        • Kennybhoy

          God forgive me, I must confess to agreeing with Maister Z here. There are few more deeply sinful but joyous pleasures than watching a left-liberal hoist by his own petard.Or on a less personal level, watching the left-liberal establishment twisting in the wind, hoist high by their own contradictions.

          • Noa

            Ha! We must each of us purge our souls as best we may, K Bhoy!

    • In2minds

      It’s all very well WatTylersGhost saying – “we have to ignore law ……we
      will be forced down a path …..etc”. But the UK police acting as the armed wing of Common Purpose are more than happy to see us on our way along that route. Those who try to protest will be kettled and tazered, all part of ‘protecting the public’.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        taser

    • Fergus Pickering

      Absolutely Fuck em however immaculately bearded.

  • In2minds

    We should be ashamed of our UK universities

    • Alexsandr

      they should be told quite clearly. If they want any public money (including fees underwritten by the student loan company) then any segregation must be outlawed. This type of medieval practice has no place in Uk universities.

  • telemachus

    Why get so hot under the collar
    If folk object they can stay away
    Customs are customs
    If I organise a dinner and specify black tie I am entitled to turn away people who turn up in jeans
    Do not remember this lobby complaining that ladies with skirts above their knees were turned away from Henley Stewards enclosure(this happened to my wife)

    • WatTylersGhost

      Henley Regatta Telly? – you champagne socialist!

      • telemachus

        Guest

    • starfish

      If you organise a dinner it is in a private capacity. As usual you miss the point

      • telemachus

        Absolute nonsense
        In my capacity as a representative of a national organisation I organise both private and public dinners and other functions
        Son

        • Colonel Mustard

          What national organisation is that? Come on, tell us do, Mr Mitty.

          • telemachus

            Not political
            And not important in your sense

            • Colonel Mustard

              You don’t know what is important in my sense. Do they know you are a marxist and stalinist? Is Ken Loach a fellow member, Nick?

          • McClane

            Unite. Or Unison.

            • telemachus

              I would be proud
              I could only aspire to those dizzy heights

          • foxoles

            The Owen Jones fanclub (membership: two).

        • Mike

          Dress code at functions like Henley obviously apply to all but that has sod all to do with segregation.

          • telemachus

            Guest son
            Not a member

        • WatTylersGhost

          If you have a daughter at university, would you be happy that she is subject to such discrimination?

          • telemachus

            Very happy
            She can choose not to attend

        • Noa

          “In my capacity as a representative of a national organisation I organse…functions”
          Is this your organisation, comrade Son?

          http://www.britloos.co.uk/

          • telemachus

            I hear from my wife a health worker that these are useful folk
            So I would be proud

            • Noa

              Very ‘umble of you I’m sure, comrade Uriah,

        • Alexandrovich

          And yet you didn’t have the wherewithal to find out the dress code before you went to Henley.

    • foxoles

      ‘If folk object they can stay away’

      That also applies to the ones who can’t tolerate mixed audiences, yes?

    • Alexandrovich

      And I suppose you weren’t turned away in your Che Guevara T-shirt.

  • Agrippina

    That is the prob with the competing rights of freedom of speech, freedom to practice your faith and equality for all. But the university is not the place for this segregation nonsense, a learning institution is for the last right, to trump all others.

    The religious folks, can hire a private venue and segregate as they wish.

    Ironic, that all these religious fanatics, keep quoting back to us, that they have a right to request this segregation, as this is a progressive liberal democracy, their rights need to be protected.

    These religion of peace folks need to go and live and practice their faith in a muslim country to really absorb the lifestyle. Not wanted here, we are a christian country and don’t chop off limbs, shroud women because your men cannot control themselves, stone people and carry out other acts of barbarism. Off you go.

    • Mike

      Problem is all these scumbags still want the benefits and other freedoms that the UK offers them and they wouldn’t even contemplate going to somewhere like Saudi.

      • Agrippina

        Yes, the a la carte muslim. We will take your social housing, claim all the benefits, educate our children and take your NHS for granted because we over-use, due to the fact we have intermarried and have lots of folks with disabilities and defects.

        Integrate, no chance, we just want to turn this country into a third world dump, we left behind.

      • FrenchNewsonlin

        Its worse than that. Ask why the UUK issued the guidance it did and follow the money. Much funding for universities today comes from foreign students and many of these come from distant desert lands with plenty of money power. UUK should be given clear guidance on standing up for educational principles including academic freedom.

    • Newcombe

      These rights are only competing if you treat them as different. No, human rights are the same where ever you are. Ask any politician, journalist (even Douglas Murray) if he thinks Muslims should have different rights to us. No. So, if they want to segregate women, for the sake of equality, you understand, why shouldn’t they?

      Britain, if we are to believe the myth, is a free country. As I’ve said here before, many mosques and Islamic religious schools practice gender segregation, and many too are funded by the state, but no one in their right mind would complain about that. And rightly so.

      And I ask you, why should Muslims go and practice their faith in a Muslim country? Unfortunately I know many of these Muslim countries like Pakistan do not allow the same freedom to followers of other faiths that we do (mainly because we do not treat Muslims all that well here) – but surely that is the beauty of our society that we treat everyone equally, and thats why so many Pakistanis prefer Britain. So, no, Muslims can stay and do what their cultural values dictate. If we want to preserve the community harmony, we have to let more Muslims in this country, just so that people like you and Ms Maltby can see and feel the real love of Islam.

      But, I agree there are just too many Poles and Hungarians brining with them their alien cultures upsetting our communal balance and am glad that the government is at last (and bravely, despite the promise of so many votes) doing everything to restrict their immigration, but I digress.

      • Fergus Pickering

        I think I prefer Poles and Hungarians, thank you very much.

        • Kennybhoy

          Czechs are cool too! I have two half Czech great nieces and a third on the way! :-)

          • Noa

            Dutch too, two of my aunts married ’em, one of them twice, spouses calvinists all, of course.
            Plenty of children too, until they put a cap on that.

            • Kennybhoy

              See yersel as a Dutch Uncle Maister N? Related to Calvie de’il worshippers too! Why am I no’ surprised? :-)

              And puting a cap on it and worse helped bring us to the precipice…

              • Noa

                RMEL.;-)

          • Fergus Pickering

            Yeah, Czechs are fine. They drink, they smoke in bars, and they have a most beautiful capital city.

      • Kennybhoy

        “But, I agree there are just too many Poles and Hungarians…”

        Careful there man, you will upset the less discriminating hereabouts.

      • Hexhamgeezer

        Pakistanis prefer our money. Not us.

Close
Can't find your Web ID? Click here