Britain’s immigration debate is utterly mad

9 December 2013

9:41 AM

9 December 2013

9:41 AM

This week’s Mail on Sunday carried two stories on the same page about immigration. Perhaps unwittingly the two stories — and one man in particular — demonstrate the craziness of this country’s immigration debate.

One story was about a Conservative party candidate at the 2010 election who has defected to UKIP. Her ex-husband has released a video made while she was a Conservative candidate saying stuff about sending illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers back home. The second story is about a Labour party pollster who tweeted sarcastic comments about Labour voters who express concerns about immigration levels.


Perhaps unfortunately for him the Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi (who I once heard speak and had thought quite well of) was asked for comment on both pieces. These — as I say — appeared on the same page.

On the left hand side of the page, referring to the ex-Tory — now UKIP — lady’s views Mr Zahawi called for her to:

‘Retract her deeply damaging comments’, adding: ‘Hard-working immigrants contribute significantly to the UK.’ 

While on the right hand of the page, referring to the views of the Labour pollster we read ‘Last night, Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi said:

‘This shows the contempt Labour and Ed Miliband have for the public. They don’t want to hear people’s views about immigration. Instead they want to censor and shut down any sensible and rational debate on an extremely important subject. It’s the same old Labour. Anyone who doesn’t share their world view is mocked and attacked.’ 

Is it possible these two Nadhim Zahawi MPs are one and the same person?

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Show comments
  • andy jones

    we don’t need bin men we don’t need people sponging off the NHS we don’t need anymore corner shops so why put up with it
    the same with the polish and eastern Europeans.
    They come over and take jobs off the young British people and what about the British that have been to jail and try to reform. They haven’t a chance because when they come out even small jobs are already taken.
    Maybe if they are doctors maybe let them in but anything else no stay out.
    then it comes to back grounds there criminal records and do British intelligence have all of them not just some.
    they can say your country is brilliant but my granddad and other British fought to make it great.
    if they voted on what’s right instead of religion there’s would be to
    or instead stop voting in dictators there’s would be to.
    all it is the rich brits whant more money discrace

  • Cam

    This is a hot issue or most countries right now, look at the US with obamacare, still a big issue.
    Cameron | Immigration Solicitors | Wornham

  • nkotova

    By making the process of receiving legal status by foreign-born workers easier, the government would increase the productivity of the economy. A recent study shows that the economic output in states, which experience increases in immigrant inflows, is higher than in the states that do not experience it (Peri). In fact, immigrants and native born-workers specialize in different spheres (Peri). While immigrants are better at manual jobs, natives tend to be better at communication jobs. Therefore, when there is an increase in immigration inflow, there is no need for native workers to do manual job because now immigrants are occupied there. As a result, productivity improves because labor resources are now distributed more efficiently. In addition to that, immigrants raise competition among workers. That makes people work better because now they face a higher risk of losing their jobs, and, therefore, the economy’s productivity increases. What is more important, immigrants can be hired for lower wages. Thus, production costs decrease, and the economy’s output rises. Therefore, immigration reform would raise the efficiency of the economy.

    • outraged

      I am against propagation of the cast system you are talking about. Immigrants should be able to exercise their talents even it it does not conform to stereotype.

  • Donafugata

    Not surprising really, Zahawi was found to be on the fiddle just recently.

  • terence patrick hewett

    It would be instructive to compare what has been done in this country to working class communities in the last 50 years, with what was done in South Africa under the Group Areas Act; and to compare the sense of loss and grief displayed by the victims at the trashing of their respective communities.

    Great outrage was displayed in the 1960’s, at the District Six removals in Capetown, South Africa. On 11 February 1966, the South African Government declared District Six a whites-only area under the Group Areas Act, with removals starting in 1968. By 1982, more than 60,000 people had been relocated to the bleak Cape Flats Township some 25 kilometres away. Everything in District Six was bulldozed except a couple of churches. The people that were removed suffered incredible cultural and identity loss and were subject to the appalling violence of the Cape Flats criminal gangs.

    The working classes in this country after 1950 saw their families dispersed, their towns and close knit communities destroyed and turned into murderous, vice ridden slums infinitely worse than anything they replaced, a thing that even the Luftwaffe did not achieve. Their family oriented culture came under constant and consistent attack. The abolition of capital and corporal punishment was something they never wanted because they knew what it would mean for them: that they could not control their children. The schools which offered a way out of poverty were debauched and an anti-learning culture fostered from within them. They were called “chavs” and made to feel that their culture and love of country was inferior and even the traditional recreations of pub smoking with a drink outlawed.

    The responses to both of these events were very different. The one elicited outrage; but protests against the other were regarded with incomprehension and contempt. It was as if society regarded the working classes in Britain to be of a lower order that was unable to experience emotion and loss; a brute order of humanity with a debased culture of no value. The enormity of what the liberal elites have done to British society in the name of social engineering is now beginning to sink in. We get calls to fix our broken society by the very people who broke it in the first place. Like post Apartheid South Africa, a Truth and Reconciliation Commission should be set up, where the enforcers are encouraged to admit that everything they have implemented in the name of social engineering in the last fifty years has been a giant, tragic, cruel, wicked and traumatic social experiment inspired by some very base motives. Those who do not come from these communities do not even begin to understand the depth of the contempt and anger. People justly feel betrayed and marginalised by the very organisations that should have protected them.

    I was born in the East End of London and I saw it happen; it was my aunts, my uncles, my family and my community that was smashed. Like the Jewish poet Emanuel Litvinoff; when I return to the East End all I see are ghosts. I was also in Capetown when the removals from District Six took place; the same rejection and the same betrayal. The difference is that the Afrikaner, unlike the English, have
    repented and welcomed the family members back into the fold, and I am happy to say that I still have good friends there. So I retain the right to make these comments no matter how unwelcome they may be; there is a world of difference between being there and experiencing it, and just reading about it in books.

    The society and communities in Britain that were displaced were not perfect by any means, but in comparison to the violent and dysfunctional chaos that has been brought about by the activities of the liberal elites and their enforcers, it was a heaven of tolerance. That society was no accident; it was brought about after a 100 years of social reform by the Victorians and Edwardians. And our murderous and vice ridden society is no accident either; it was brought about in 50 short years by
    agents of a force bent on our destruction. They have managed to achieve the almost impossible; they have dragged us back into the horrors of the 18th century. Our unwritten constitution worked very well until recently, but it afforded us no protection from an internal enemy, not based on Plato’s Will to Good, but based on Nietzsche’s Will to Power. And God help us, we let it happen.

    Be warned. UKIP are a cuddly teddy bear compared with what will come after if democracy is frustrated.

    • Daniel Maris

      I certainly agree with the last sentence. Democracy is either functional (representing the people effectively) or dysfunctional (not representing the people effectively). Ours is dysfunctional. It has to be repaired, at speed, or we are going to face some terrible consequences.

  • mark tayler

    This is why we need UKIP.

    The Tories are pro-mass immigration.

    • Daniel Maris

      It’s true. There is no evidence they oppose mass immigration. Recently Cameron attended the UK Curry awards and indicated he would be pressing for more Indian/Bangladeshi restaurant workers to be allowed into the UK.

      What have they done in response to the Trenton Oldfield ruling, allowing him to stay in this country after disrupting a major sporting event? Nothing. Any government opposed to mass immigration would have done something effective e.g. declaring that anyone found guilty of a criminal offence gets deported if the person and spouse have somewhere to go, as does TO and spouse.

      • James Lovelace

        Most of the “Indian” restaurants are in fact run by Bangladeshi and Pakistani muslims. In Britain 50% of muslim men are unemployed and 75% of muslim women.

        What possible reason can there be for importing people who can cook curry when in this country there is an army of 2 million unemployed muslims who all know how to cook curry? The house to my left and to my right both have muslim families in them. Between them they have got 6 unemployed adult muslims in them. I smell them cooking curry every day.

  • pobinr

    I’m not a racist. I’m a spacist. We’re full for Christ’s sake!
    Meantime the countries of Eastern Europe which in total are 4.5 times the area of UK must now be half empty!
    No debate!

  • Nightwatchstate

    Let’s keep on pretending this isn’t an attempt to destroy the English. Ethnic warfare through mass invasion of racial aliens? Perish the thought.

  • hermann kelly

    Spotted that too. Very funny. The Tories are running scared on UKIP.
    On the immigration issue, UKIP have outfoxed them at every turn.
    The MoS article on the woman was pathetic.

  • Bob Thomas

    As Douglas’ observation accurately notes, there is no immigration “debate” whatsoever. The “political class” have decided that business as usual is the order of the day.

  • wheres_fenton

    It comes to something when we allow anybody in, except the children of expats.

    • NickG

      I am British, born of British parents – though they were expats in India at the time working for a British company – Castrol – Yet I have to pay a visa fees to bring my own son, born in South Africa, into my own country.

  • Perseus Slade

    Sure you got that quote right? Wasn`t there a “…bosses` bank accounts” at the end of ‘Retract her deeply damaging comments’, adding: ‘Hard-working immigrants contribute significantly to the UK.’

  • Chris

    Erm, its not mad, its quite simple, the government LIBLABCON are playing a double game. They want to pretend immigration will be bought under control, however they need immigration to keep the ship afloat via a demographic ponzi scheme to cover for their QE treason.

    Immigration keeps inflation down as people have less to spend as wage prices are depreciated. Profits are artificially increased as a result of less wage cost for business. All this spells disaster for one group of people – English people who work.

  • Roy

    It doesn’t matter whether they are hard working or cruise with Peter Pan and the fairies … if they have moved in illegally, or not been invited, or pose a threat, or dislike the British people and the way of life, they should be shoveled off back where they came from.

  • pobinr

    Hard-working immigrants contribute significantly to the bank balances of those that pay crap wages. The rest of us have to put up with;
    MORE Roma
    MORE traffic jams
    MORE immigration
    MORE crowded parks
    MORE packed surgeries
    MORE crowded beaches
    MORE houses on green belt land
    MORE crowded trains and buses
    MORE centralised control by the EU
    MORE power cuts due to more demand
    MORE feeling like a foreigner in your home town
    MORE classes of kids needing special training in basic talking
    MORE systematic, total betrayal of all that your forefathers worked and fought for.

    • Daniel Maris

      Pretty accurate apart from:

      “MORE power cuts due to more demand” – no power cuts I am aware of.

      • Eddie

        Had one here last week, and one earlier this year, and another last year. The first I remember since I was a boy in the 70s.

      • pobinr

        More likelyhood

  • John Sydenham

    I dont think the British public has got any idea about what is really going on. There is a terrifying, triumphalist account at of what has been happening.

    • cyrusthevirus

      Fascinating-no surprise at all-everything fits and so repulsive!Anyone who believes in the oppression of the individual for the benefit of the all-encompassing state is evil and or stupid -depending how far up the pyramid they are!All power to the small elite who control the “wise State”!

    • pobinr

      I love this bit – ‘As Jack Straw put it, “English Nationalism” was the “greatest threat to Britain”. The English were not just a threat within Britain, they had a cult of individualism and had spread this globally, undermining Socialism everywhere.’
      Socialist scum are the biggest threat to Britain

    • Trofim

      Hang on, JS, this site is exactly what I would write if I wanted to write a spoof site to further anger people like us. E.g. “The individual “liberties” such as “free” speech, private wealth and “free” association all underpin the cult of the individual and are inherently racist, putting the self above the other. This racist ideology contains the seeds of its own destruction as anti-racists use it to free the people”. I can’t take this stuff seriously – it’s so egregiously over the top, I reckon it’s a spoof. Perhaps it’s your blog? Perhaps it’s by M16 as a way of recruiting new people, or somebody looking to recruit a private army.

      • John Sydenham

        No, I genuinely think that the modern Post-Marxists think they have won. Well, they have won. I like your comment about it being an MI6 recruiting site.

  • Bonkim

    Would you say a two faced MP!

  • roccolore

    Muslims hate Europe but love the European welfare benefits.

    • The BBC Sucks BBCs

      Amazing how our benefits system trumps their religious convictions, they’d rather live in a welfare state than an Islamic state.

  • David Webb

    Well nadhim has a sectional ethnic interest, doesn’t he?

  • sarahsmith232

    Ha, well spotted. Looks like somebodies got a few focus grouped buttons to press and has unfortunately gone and pressed the wrong ones at the same time.
    Depressing, the Tories have proved a waste, the only immigration policy they’ve implemented has been a tiny tightening of the rules on student visas. Come 2015 this will still be the case. Quite unbelievable that a party that stood on a platform promising to get something done about immigration can spend 5yrs doing practically nothing. Shameful and solely Cameron’s doing.

  • CausticWally

    Why shouldn’t the comments have come from the same person? Am I missing something here….?

  • Mr B J Mann

    The point this illustrates is that even the “Right”, even Migrationwatch, dare not tell the whole truth.
    They argue about whether hard-working immigrants cover the full “costs” of immigration to to society, or 120%, or even 130%
    When what they actually mean is do they barely cover the benefits bill for immigration, or do they also cover the cost of their children’s education (but not the cost of the disruption to other people’s chidren’s education, or do they also cover the cost to the NHS of immigration.
    But, of course, what they need to be doing is covering ALL of that.
    Plus their, and the non working immigrants’ share of the military.
    And the police.
    And the country’s roads and other infrastructure.
    Etc, etc, etc………
    Including their share of the cost of the indigenous welfare bill.
    Only then would the hard working immigrants be economically beneficial.

    • outraged

      I actually agree with you that this immigration debate is based on whole wrong premises.

      Take hundred of thousands of Indian graduates who are being brought to UK as ‘highly skilled’ every year. They are taking away training opportunities and entry level jobs from your own youth! These are good paying jobs, graduates are being BILLED at £400 per day minimum while in training and around £700 within a year or two, when they move up to ‘management level’. During initial 5 years they do not pay much taxes because many expenses are deductible.

      This is happening in nationalised banks and state projects and all over everywhere. Look up TCS, WIPRO, Infosys – all new multi billion projects go to them nowadays.

      Who in their right mind can say that you need these people taking your GOOD jobs? What about youth unemployment?

      • Bonkim

        Why are British Companies not competing for the tenders?

        • outraged

          Not sure why Indians win, it may have something to do with their culture of conducting business. Its like the uncontrolled muslim immigration – nobody understands how on earth can that be happening, but it does.

          Misrepresentation of experience and grossly unrealistic valuations are only facilitators justifying the decision – look good on paper though.

          • Bonkim

            Buyer Beware! there are lots or con-merchants and incompetents in Britain – may be the education levels of those being employed by the Indian contractors are higher – regards quality and competence it is for those paying to set levels of competence, and performance and sack the contractors if they don’t perform.

    • outraged

      Why would I (so called EE immigrant) be expected to cover welfare bill of some muslim guy with 4 wives and 25 children who lives in big mansion in North West London and spends his time complaining about my western culture? No deal.

      • Mr B J Mann

        Because you are supposedly contributing more than your share to the “economy”, and that is the reason we are supposed to let everyone in, because they are contributing 110%, 120%, 130% of what an indigenous taxpayer does.

        But, clearly, they aren’t!

        • outraged

          EE citizens are not ‘everyone’. We have opened our borders for your capital, goods, services and people with grave and lasting consequences for our own citizens.

          If you do not see the difference, go and try to open business in India or Pakistan, try to buy property there or even work.

          Hope that not all English people are as thick as you are!

          • Mr B J Mann

            No, you haven’t:

            You export more to “us” than “we” do to you.

            And “we” didn’t vote for either, “we” (but not I) voted for a common market, under the assurance that it would NOT lead to “ever closer (political) union”.

            But perhaps you did.

            By the way, I’m no more thick than I am English.

            In fact, I, myself, am an “immigrant”, and one who, like many others, can see through the “liberal” assurances.

            But don’t let your bigotry get in the way of your “argument”.

            Or perhaps you just misunderstood what I wrote.

            It’s not I, but the EU supporting “liberals” who insist that we should have open borders because “immigrants” “contribute” 100%, 110%, 120%, even 130% of what they take out in (welfare) benefits, and so are of suposedly massive economic “benefit” to the country.

            I’m merely pointing out that, for immigration to be of real economc benefit, those that do contribute must contribute more than the fair share of the contributors, and the non contributors.

            If they don’t, then the “liberals” argument fails.

            Or are you not clever enough to follow that?

            • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

              If Britain did not want union with Poland, they should have sent Glaxo, Tesco, M&S, BDO, Mittal and Provident, to name juts a few, to monopolise Indian markets instead of ours. We would have stayed with our Polfa, Spolem, Banki Spoldzielcze and Polskie Huty.
              Sadly, 10 years of Union with Britain destroyed Polish industry and services in 100% – something 5 years of German occupation managed to achieve in only 40%.
              And now you expect that it is our duty to maintain your lazy behind! Shame!

              • Mr B J Mann

                You’re still struggling with my English I see.

                For a start I was talking about the EU and not Poland.

                By the way my mother is Polish (and my father wasn’t British

                Try reading what people write before going into attack mode!

                • Nigel Korwin-Mikke

                  Perhaps your argument does not make much sense. Furthermore, you are unpleasantly condescending.

  • Ignacio Neumann

    I firmly believe that Europe has no future with this kind of policy. Companies such as Edinburgh car service have been already taken by muslims and if we are talking about army i would say that it is pretty dangerous to let them into. I mean we can realize that we got the short end of the stick.

  • Eddie

    The facts are these:
    1) Immigration can be beneficial, and profit and ‘enrich’ our society.
    2) Immigration can be detrimental to society, and impoverish and harm our society.

    I get thoroughly sick of being lectured by glazed-eyed ethno-philiacs whose mantra is all about the first one above, yet who will not even acknowledge the second.

    Some more facts: 15% of those is prison are foreign-born; a hug number of people getting council housing are foreign-born and recent immigrants; many native Brits cannot afford to buy a house mainly because we have had 4 million immigrants over the last 25 years; the social fabric of society has been fractured by immigration and native communities ravaged and destroyed (as in east London); these immigrants will cost the country dear in the long-term as their care and pensions will need to be paid for (never factored into any pro-immigration audit).
    We have had way too much mass immigration in the last 20 years – from Africa, Asia and the EU, and we did not need any of it. Work permits would be fine and work better.

    BTW I am the son of an immigrant who came here in the 50s, so call me racist and bigoted (or worse, a Daily Mail reader), and I’ll boff you. OK?

    • Daniel Maris

      Nearly all agreed. But we are where we are and the point is now to stop the mass immigration policy supported by Labour, Conservative and the Lib Dems.

      I am feeling more and more that only a UKIP vote can do that. We need to administer a shock to the body politic. It woudl be purely a protest vote for me – personally speaking, for me, being part of UKIP must be like being trapped for all eternity in the clubhouse after a round of golf, condemned to listen to an endless round of humourless anecdotes over gin and tonics. But sadly, there is no other non-fascist party to put the case so I feel I owe it to my descendants to at least register this protest via UKIP.

      • Eddie

        I tend to agree. I shall vote tactically here though – so am undecided as yet who to vote for. The UKIP protect vote, plus polls showing 80% of people oppose immigration, are facts to make all rich, property owning, millionaire politicians squirm though…

        We CAN stop all Roma coming here – we can get the EU to pass retrospective laws. These people should be chucked out and sent back to where they came from (Eastern Europe) where the authorities deliberately encouraged them, to leave and come here – we deserve redress on that scam. The French too send problem immigrants straight here.

        Those who set foot on EU soil must lose the right to stay here too.
        The 1951 Asylum Act needs reform.

        We need to expel illegals now – about a million in the UK, I would say.

        We need to let quality immigrants in and chuck out the dross – anyone who has committed crimes or is homeless should be sent back. Prisoners should be banned from the UK when released.

        Housing benefit should be scrapped too – buy to let landlords are coining it off public funds. UK Natives must be given priority. If that means we have to remove benefits from Brits too, so be it. No such thing as housing benefit in Spain or Italy etc.

        We need to make the lives of immigrants far less pleasant – as they do in France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Eastern Europe.

  • Mario Creatura

    I fail to see what this article is getting at – Nadhim says the UKIP Councillor shouldn’t use ad hominem attacks on hard-working migrants and concurrently says Labour want to shut down sensible debate on immigration. The two comments aren’t mutually exclusive.

    • James Lovelace

      I’m sorry to say, Douglas Murray could not have made this analysis any simpler for you. You really are too stupid to comment on these things.

    • Mike

      I’ll try and make it easy for you –

      Firstly Nadhim Zahawiwas was cherry picking comments this UKIP woman made to politicize it and make out she was attacking ALL immigrants when that wasn’t the case. Secondly as a sop to second & third generation immigrants who rightly want immigration controlled, he’s telling Labour not to shut down debate on the subject. Basically, he’s slamming her for exactly the same line he’s spouting, that’s the problem.

      As others have pointed out, almost all Muslim spokespersons are well known for this twisted approach and Islam is the root cause of this. Its simultaneously a conflation and contradiction of common sense fighting religious dogma and you’ll never get coherent thought or statements whilst Islam is in the mix.

  • Wessex Man

    The scandal isn’t what this woman said five years ago whilst a member of the Tory party filmed by her then Husband. Its about the crude attempt by The Mail on Sunday to blacken the name of UKip yet again. No mention is made on the Front of the paper to that fact, it screams- In shocking video, UKIP Councillor and key Farage ally launches astonishing racist rant…. then tells the MoS ‘! stand by every word.’ ‘SEND THEM ALL BACK HOME.’

    Then on page 8 Farage’s top UKIP ‘filly’ : I just want to send the lot back… but can’t say that.’

    This is just The Mail Group backing the Tories in the only way they can by flinging accusations of racism against the UKip Party and behaving as they did between the wars when thet thought Hitler was a pretty decent bloke!

  • James Lovelace

    The problem for a muslim MP in talking about “Hard-working immigrants” is that the reports (from the EHRC and other well-concealed academic studies) show that the vast majority of muslims in Britain do not work.

    So, if muslims in Britain are mostly not working, what is the advantage of having them here? They are 21% of young criminals, 13% of all criminals, only 0.4% of the armed forces. And 330 of them have been convicted of terrorism in the past 12 years.

    They are one luxury we really do not need.

    • Graeme S

      James … Spot on !! Too many work as Yuff leaders and care assistants. Complete rubbish really

      • alabenn

        Youth Leaders and Care Assistants with access to children, I was wondering how they managed to gain access to so many young girls for the Muslim rape gangs

      • rtj1211

        Teachers are what is needed but Yuff leaders are redundant??

        Interesting views……..

    • crosscop

      Muslims making up 0.4% of our armed forces is 0.04% too many. Far too risky. All it takes is just one – and we’ll have a Fort Hood Massacre of our very own.

      • Daniel Maris

        So you think 0.36% is OK???!!?

        • crosscop

          Had to chuckle at that one, Daniel.

          • Daniel Maris

            A rare, statistically-based joke. 🙂

            • Daniel Maris

              Did you know one in ten statisticians prefer percentages?

              • BrickinaWall

                did you know that 29.756% of statistics are made up on the spot?

                • Daniel Maris

                  Yes, I did actually. 🙂 Due to using my super powers of “common sense” and “scepticism”.

              • Alexandrovich

                No, but 63% of statistics are just made up.

      • atticus1900

        Wrong. They are brave men who face being targeted by their own community to the degree that they must keep their service a secret – sometimes even from family members

        • James Lovelace

          The irony is that 0.4% of the armed services being muslim is held up as a sign of how loyal, integrated and “British” muslims are. Never mind that muslims of fighting age are 21% of the prison population. Never mind that Al Qaeda’s instructions are the muslims must not join the armies of non-muslim countries.

          The evidence is that 99% of muslims in Britain are behaving in accord with this policy of Al Qaeda.

          • Noa

            At least we are spared the cost of providing military training to the bulk of Al Qaeda UK.

        • crosscop

          “Wrong. They are brave men who face being targeted by their own community.”

          I bet people said that about Nidal Hasan before he turned his gun on his kuffar colleagues. As I said – it only takes one to go “devout” on us.

        • edlancey

          They are probably all Ahmadis – considered infidels by “moderate” muslims.

    • Agrippina

      Of course, child grooming molesters too. There appear to be far too many of them interested in young girls to molest and getting away with it by saying, that back in their village they can marry girls at aged 12. What alot of nonsense, they know exactly what they are doing, judges need to wake up.

      Useless police and social services worried about ‘stigmatising a community’ have turned a blind eye for too long.

      • James Lovelace

        “Useless police and social services worried about ‘stigmatising a community’ have turned a blind eye for too long.”

        For at least 25 years. In 1988 Sikhs in Birmingham took the law into their own hands to deal with the muslim grooming gangs. The Sikhs got prosecuted. The police, CPS and childcare professionals have effectively been helping the grooming gangs for 25 years.

        I never heard of these grooming gangs until 2010. I thought the people who were telling me about them were lying. The evidence has come out in since 2010.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        “…back in their village they can marry girls at aged 12…”
        “Don`t give me that BS, Achmed. Seven years hard labour, Sunshine. Followed by deportation.”

    • The Patriot

      Even more scary is that some of them are MP’s like this guy! First generation too….

      In public crusading for the rights of the average British citizen, behind closed doors I hate to think what he plots with his brethren, all we know is that Islam is so counter to our own culture…. It should be removed.

      • James Lovelace

        “behind closed doors I hate to think what he plots with his brethren”

        One of my students was a convert to islam. She told me “you would not believe the hatred muslims express for non-muslims when you are not around”.

    • John Kinory

      The amazing thing, James, is that 2 people are stupid enough to have marked you down.

      • James Lovelace

        It doesn’t amaze me 🙂 I used to be one of those stupid, dhimmi, Leftists who (against all evidence) repeated over and over again “muslims born here will integrate and become liberal and tolerant”. Finally being confronted with multiple personal instances of muslim supremacism, muslim racism, muslim violence, I decided I’d better drop my Pollyanna optimism, and start learning about islam, its history, and the statistics of what is going on in Britain.

        • John Kinory

          If only all leftist (and many not on the left) dhimmis did the same …

  • HJ777

    I haven’t seen the video in question, but surely “saying stuff about sending illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers back home” is just emphasizing the current and longstanding legal position on what is supposed to happen?

    If it’s not, then what’s the point of having any rules on immigration and asylum seeking?

    • FF42

      I think Nadhim Zahawi makes a distinction between legal and illegal immigration; the lady in the video doesn’t really believe in the distinction but pretends to for her public message. The offcuts tell us she supports sending them all back, National Front style. Nigel Farage dismisses this as extreme.

      I would say Mr Zahawi’s position is a coherent one.

      • Wessex Man

        You would? have you read his comments above?

        • FF42

          Fair enough. I don’t actually know that Mr Zahawi makes the distinction between legal and illegal immigration, because he didn’t actually say so. But assuming he does, his comments are coherent. The lady in the video pretends to make the distinction in the bit she was expecting to be broadcast, while making it clear in the out-takes that she didn’t in reality. So I disagree with Pootles, above.

          • Mike

            The problem I have ‘assumptions’ is that by not differentiating between legal and illegal immigrants unlike the UKIP women, we have to assume Zahawi means all immigrants.

      • Pootles

        It doesn’t look as if that is what she said – the film (see here, you’ll need to scroll down a bit: ) clearly shows her talking about ‘illegals’ and ‘failed asylum seekers’. If you look at this, and think you might have got your comment wrong, then perhaps you need to note that here

      • Alexsandr

        unlike his incoherent expenses policy 🙁

      • CausticWally

        Yes, or at least it is certainly not incoherent as the article seems to imply….

      • Tom M

        Either you haven’t listened to what she said, in which case you are commenting upon somethng of which you have no knowledge or if you have listened to what she said then you are clearly not telling the truth.

      • Mike

        You’re the one being selective with the truth as the lady in question stated unequivocally that those she wanted to send back were illegal immigrants.

  • ADW

    Actually he’s being quite consistent, in that he is happy for people to discuss immigration as long as they give the right answer …

  • Noa

    For a millionaire MP who claims 31p in expenses for paper clips and lets the public pay his stable electricity bill; holding and uttering two opposing arguments in his head at the same time is simply an effusive homage to his Party leader, who has displayed these attributes on many occasions.

  • crosscop

    Zahawi appears to be a practicing Orwell’s infamous “Doublethink” –
    the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously. Muslims like Mr Zahawi are quite at home with this, of course – as is evident from their belief that there is no compulsion in religion but that anyone who leaves Islam should be killed.

  • wattys123

    the BBC has never covered non-white immigration, it will always focus on the Poles – the reality is 75% of immigration has been African and Indian.

    • Pootles

      Further, the terms ‘Poles’, ‘East Europeans’, etc seem to be used as cover for the immigration that people do object to, but daren’t name.

      • outraged

        yep, they are ganging up against Polish community. its getting serious.

        • Pootles

          Funnily enough, a chunk of the Labour Movement did exactly the same thing after 1945 – denouncing expatriate Poles in the UK as ‘fascists’.

          • outraged

            How come? We were fighting (and dying in millions) against Hitler and Germany. Nothing comical there, not for a normal person anyway.

            If its true, then it would be like adding insult to injury. Since you are so knowledgeable, do you happen to know what C. Attlee had to say about Germans and Italians ?

            Have you seen that in Hugh Williams’s book by any chance, its sounds like the quotation from there ?

            • Pootles

              It was after the end of the war, at the time of the establishment of a Soviet Poland. Large numbers of Poles realised that they could not return to Poland as the Polish government in exile in London was persona non grata. The UK government did not force Poles to return; some emigrated to the USA, Canada and Australia, in particular, but others remained in the UK. Some of those stayed (for many, many years) in former military camps and did agricultural work. However, others sought jobs in the mines, steel foundries, and other manufacturing industries. It was some of these men who faced official trades union hostility. The Scottish TUC, for example, condemned Poles who refused to return to Poland as ‘fascists’ – clearly, the reasoning went, they must be, otherwise why did they not want to return to socialist Poland. Needless to say, the CPGB and its fellow travellers (and dupes) in the Labour movement were behind this. Also, needless to say, Attlee wasn’t one of those! I don’t know Hugh Williams’ book, but my knowledge comes from my university days in the 1980s.

              • outraged

                That’s political asylum for your war allies … you realise that had these people returned, they would have been imprisoned, tortured and murdered. I do not believe that British elites were unaware of what was going on back then. Why would they make such an absurd statements?

                You stressed that you are associating Polish people with manual labourers – which is untrue, not for old immigration anyway. I know quite a few of them and they are akin to middle class intelligentsia, not blue collar workers in any shape or form. (another attack against Poles, calculated to lower our standing in pecking order)

                I am surprised to hear about the ‘hostility’ towards post war Polish emigration – I have not encountered any until 2007. If indeed they were treated that poorly, it would reflects very badly on treatment of war allies by England.

                However I treat your account with the pinch of salt – history is not about the facts anymore. It turned into the ‘Politics of History’.

                • Pootles

                  I’m really sorry, but you’ve misunderstood what I am saying:

                  1. Poles in the UK in 1945 could not, by and large, return home – Poland being in the hands of the Soviets.
                  2. Many stayed in the UK, and there was no problem with that.
                  3. British communists, and their fellow travellers, FALSELY accused the Poles in the UK (i.e., those who did not want to go back to a Soviet Poland) of being ‘fascists’. It was a LIE, a smear, but it was one that was taken up, by, for example, the Scottish Trades Union Congress.

                  Do you understand now?

                • Hoot_Gibson

                  Well said Pootles
                  I was living in Ruislip along the road where the Polish memorial is from my birth in 1946 until 1969. It is in Ruislip not Northolt but called so as the Aerodrome was named Northolt but not in Northolt but in Ruislip!.
                  However I was also born a Roman Catholic so went to school and church with many children of English/Polish parentage and I can assure you that there was no chance for them to visit home for many years as they would have arrested and shot.
                  My Mum will never forget that during the Battle of Britain they would shut the A40 dual carriageway ( now called Westway I think) parallel with the airport so the Polish squadrons could use the road as an extra 2 runways.
                  They were so keen to fight the Germans they never took any notice of RAF senior personnel. They just hammered into the Germans as soon as they could.
                  I will never forget with my sister finding 2 bombs in our garden backing on to the airport and walking down the street with them in a battered pram to show off to other children.Just imagine the thrashing we got that night!! The bomb squad nearly fainted when they arrived to see us proud and grinning trying to hold up a bomb in triumph.
                  Those were hard days but simple days playing in the numerous ponds around the airport all former bomb holes stuffed with newts frogs etc.
                  Great days.

          • outraged

            I do not think that its true – even English Wikipedia which tend to be anti Polish presents completely different story:

            If there was any ‘chunk’ accusing Polish immigration of affiliations with Germans (hence the fascism), it must have been of COMMUNIST designation, and acting with the intention to discredit Polish government in exile hosted in London since 1940 in favour of the Communist Government being formed in Warsaw under Soviet occupation.

            The fact that you are making this absurd and completely irrelevant statement is yet another example of the attack against Polish community. Someone must have concocted this lie and pass it somehow on wider, unsuspecting audience.

            To be honest, I actually believe that you posted this just to wind me up.

            • Pootles

              There seems to be a major mis-understanding here. I am NOT saying that the Poles were fascists – quite the opposite. What I am saying is that the British Communist Party (the CPGB) argued that Poles who tried to stay in the UK after the end of the war were fascists – i.e., it was a Communist smear that was taken up by sections of the Labour movement – particularly some trades unions. For example, let me quote from the Communist (yes, they still exist) biography of the 1945 CPGB MP, Phil Piratin by Kevin Marsh and Robert Griffiths, Granite and Honey, that came out last year. ‘Many of the thousands of anti-Russian, anti-communist Poles under the jurisdiction of Britain’s armed forces were refusing to return to their country under communist rule, especially military officers who had lost their middle- and upper-class possessions and privileges. Piratin joined the small number of Labour and Tory MPs who criticised the British government’s willingness to pay for their upkeep…’ etc etc (p.127). Now do you see?

              • outraged

                I am going to bed bye!

                • Pootles


              • Wessex Man

                You’ve got to understand that you are dealing with someone who is not altogether here there or anywhere.

                He just doesn’t understand, because he doesn’t want to that the Polish servicemen fought bravely in all our armed services and I believe that one Squadron of Poles were to most efficent in the Battle of Britain.

                In the Victory Parade after the War, they were the only one’s not allowed to attend because the Soviets said they didn’t want them there and our brave political leaders said OK.

          • rtj1211

            And the Govt put up a war memorial by RAF Northolt to all the Poles who died fighting Hitler.

            In those days, sentiment where it mattered was spot on.

    • outraged

      if you take into account illegals, the proportion is likely closer to 95/100.

  • Austin Barry

    The immigration debate is utterly mad bcause it is never accompanied by any action; oh, except for a few tatty, placarded vans feebly threatening illegals.

    The native culture continues to be subsumed and the infrastructure sag through weight of numbers while well-fed, smarmy hypocrites like Zahawi can’t even remember their lies.

    And can our political masters please stop using ‘hard-working’ to sanctify all immigrants? Some are far from hard-working.

    • outraged

      I also hate this ‘hard working’ phrase. It implies low status and less than living wage. I find it demeaning when applied to my own national designation. We are not workhorses, are we?

      As for those who are known to abuse welfare system, its quite another matter. But we all know that this issue will not be addressed as long as Refco-Farage is whipping up mobs and scapegoating innocent.

      • Wessex Man

        prey tell me where Nigel Farage is whipping up mobs, I haven’t noticed perhaps you’ve got the wrong Nigel Farage or the wrong country, or maybe you’re just a twisted person!

        • outraged

          hi mod, can I block this stalker?

          • Wessex Man

            don’t kid yourself, I’m merely like you exercising my right to free speech. Your not worth stalking.

            • outraged

              for the past week you have been tracing my posts and posting replies with all kind of offensive invectives. that is just rudeness and I do not have to tolerate it.

              • sarahsmith232

                oh, was he being so terribly mean to you? oh bless, well then why don’t you go and have a little cry somewhere, i’m sure it wi make it all so much better.
                Are you being serious??!!!

                • outraged

                  I do not know Disney, we had to watch these as kids:


                  btw – you are not really a woman, are you?

                • sarahsmith232

                  100% female dearey

                • Jackthesmilingblack

                  Pre-supposing you reside in UK, you may not fully appreciate that Britain has become a nation of bullies. It`s only when you are able to view Britain from a distance do you realise what truly awful people Brits are. General population in a minimum security prison is hardly an exaggeration.
                  Jack, Japan Alps

                • Wessex Man

                  nobody is bullying anybody except the intolerant of which I am not apart, if we are so awlful what are you doing having anything to do with us? do grow up.

              • Fergus Pickering

                Why do you not? What are you going to do about it?

              • Mike

                The way you say it you’re making Farage out to be some right wing Anjem Chowdary when none of us have seen Farage whipping up mob violence. If you don’t want criticism, then substantiate your statements instead of doing exactly what you claim Farage is doing !

          • sarahsmith232

            If you can’t take the heat stay out the comments section. Don’t be so pathetically weak. If you’re sure of your opinion then take the detractors on, pleading for your moderator protector to them shows your arguments are weak.

          • Jackthesmilingblack

            No chance, out. The Spectator believes in keeping the nutter around for laughs.

            • Wessex Man

              Glad to spread a little sunlight into your world!

          • Mike

            Perhaps should answer the question instead of trying to block it !

          • George Smiley

            Are you Dame Peter Tatchell by any chance?

      • sarahsmith232

        Nothing but a set of regurgitated at will sheep statements, if I ever did read any. Scapegoating innocents, please! What led by nose drivel. The male says it the way it is. So that includes highlighting the negative effects of immigration along w/ the positives. So no scapegoating of your Disney movie, innocents abroad, immigrant caricatures.

        • outraged

          I do not know Disney, we had to watch these as kids:

          btw – you are not really a woman, are you?

          • Wessex Man

            You really are a silly little billy aren’t you?

            • outraged

              You are being rude and disrespectful. I do not wish to receive any more comments from you.

              • Wessex Man

                tough luck then, still exercising my right to comment!

                • outraged

                  you have been BULLYING me since last week.

                • Wessex Man

                  oh do grow up and get a couple, you silly person you.

                • outraged

                  lol! I did not know that you are bullying people to compensate for your couple deficiency.

                • Tim Reed

                  It’s only words on a screen, precious. Dry your eyes.

                • outraged

                  why are you supporting the bully?

                • anyfool

                  He is not supporting a bully, you have become a bit mixed up with regards to Nigel Farage, he does not do the rabble rousing you imply, Farage states bald facts for him to do otherwise would be fatal to him and his party.
                  Since Enoch Powell immigration language in public is couched in the most meaningless terms possible and the slightest criticism of non whites is pounced upon by the whole of the political and mainstream media, this happens even if the slight criticism should be in the harshest possible terms, if you take the Muslim terrorism and the rape of huge numbers of non Muslim female children, that should give you some idea of the way things are in this country.
                  There is some rejection of European immigration but most of that is down to the country being very Eurosceptic because of the lies and deceits emanating from the EU and its supplicants in this country, but the real anti immigration debate is the one about the Third World influx of mainly uneducated and very hostile cultures and ideologies who have fled the cesspits of their own making and start creating the mirror image of what they are supposed to have fled.
                  These type of immigrants are encouraged by the very same people who supported the Russian enslavement of countries like Poland and others under the guise of Communism, you can see with the rise of reports of slavery here that they are an insidious cancer that will be very hard to cure.

                • Mike

                  Even Nick Griffin (who I don’t particularly like) was stitched up by the left in the BBC for stating the bald facts and the CPS took him to court. Luckily the jury saw through this stitch up, acquitted him and gave a two finger salute to the CPS & BBC.

    • Noa

      But ‘hard working families’ is as essential a cliche to our politicians as ‘ front line services’, ‘multi-cultural enrichment’, or ‘benefits of immigration’.
      Our politicains in government consider they are paid not just to spout cliches but to create new ones for today.
      So let us welcome these new placebos and give due credit to their originators:-
      ‘we will never give in to terror or terrorism in any of its forms”
      ‘it is completely wrong to blame this killing on the religion of Islam”.
      ‘This was not just an attack on Britain – and on our British way of life. It was also a betrayal of Islam – and of the Muslim communities who are give so much to our country.’
      David Cameron
      ‘There is nothing in Islam that justifies this truly dreadful act.’
      Boris Johnson

  • black11hawk

    The question is whether she was referring to illegal immigration or all immigrants in general. Even then, I know most of us would say who cares really, but if you don’t castigate people for those remarks then you too end up getting lumped together with the racist, fascist anti-foreigner brigade, which if you’re an ambitious individual is unlikely to do much for your career and consequently mean you are unable to get through the policies you like. Nadhim Zahawi is a decent guy, it’s the system which he operates in that’s rotten.

    • southerner

      He faces two ways like all politicians.
      Oh, and he makes “errors” in his expenses claims.

    • Alexsandr

      ‘Nadhim Zahawi is a decent guy’ Really? Look at his electricity expenses.

    • Mike

      He’s a parasite living off the tax payer as demonstrated by his expenses. Who was it who said that a certain ethnic group has corruption as a way of life !

      • black11hawk

        OK, he shouldn’t have done it but about half of parliament got stung in the expenses scandal. My local MP was involved as well and yet I wouldn’t say he’s a bad person at heart, he does tonnes of stuff for the community and is well-liked by most people in the area. There’s a million articles saying what a crooked and awful bunch MPs are but at the end of the day they’re trying to do stuff for their local community and most of them go into it to try and help people not to swindle the public.

  • JACK

    The Conservatives really live up to their name… CONS