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Rather than apologising for immigration, let’s keep our borders tighter in the first place

13 November 2013

2:00 PM

13 November 2013

2:00 PM

What is wrong with the now almost daily apologies about mass immigration? Today it is the turn of Jack Straw.  The former Home Secretary has just admitted that opening Britain’s borders to Eastern European migrants was a ‘spectacular mistake.’  He acknowledges that his party’s 2004 decision to allow migrants from Poland and Hungary to work in Britain was a ‘well-intentioned policy we messed up‘.  The Labour government famously predicted that a few thousand people would come, while the actual figure ended up being closer to a million.

Of course apologies are normally intended to draw a line under a matter.  But how could that possibly occur when all three main parties are currently committed to making the exact same mistake again?  The doubtless ‘well-intentioned’ coalition government will next year allow in a new wave of immigration from Romania and Bulgaria.  And they are dismissing their critics in just the same way as the Labour government did back in the day.  Last week the Conservative party’s representative on Question Time, Anna Soubry, performed the very 2004 tactic of dismissing all fears over this as ‘prejudice’ and ‘scaremongering’. So it looks like we will go around and down again.  ‘Racist’, ‘prejudice’ and ‘fear-mongering’ will all once again be deployed by the incumbent political class at the exact moment when their predecessors are finally partially apologising for the last round.

Ten years ago it was David Blunkett who was doing the smearing.  Using Parliamentary privilege he memorably dismissed mainstream critics of Labour’s immigration policy as ‘bordering on the fascist’.  So how amusing yesterday to see that very same former Home Secretary now warning in the most panicked terms about the consequences of opening up our borders to Bulgaria and Romania.  Blunkett now says that the influx of more Roma into Britain could lead to riots in British cities.

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All of which constitutes a nice example of the appalling debate this country continues to have about immigration.  All the main parties – including Ed Miliband’s Labour party – admit that immigration went badly out of control during the Blair era.  But all are committed to repeating the same mistake.  In lieu of any decent policy to prevent this happening the people who oversaw this disaster come out and apologise or give alarmist warnings or suggestions for secondary integration policies which are no use at all.  David Blunkett said yesterday: ‘We have got to change the behaviour and the culture of the incoming Roma community.’

Oh yes – and how exactly would he propose that we do that?  Haven’t we learned that it is in fact quite difficult to utterly change the behaviour and culture of an incoming culture when it arrives in huge numbers?  Well never fear, Blunkett has clearly thought about this.  He says, ‘We have got to be tough and robust in saying to people, “you are not living in a downtrodden village or woodland” – because many of them don’t live in areas where there are toilets or refuse collection facilities.’

Well there are now 200,000 Roma in Britain.  And the political parties are united behind a policy which is going to allow in, at the very least, many thousands more.  I suppose we can look forward to an apology from David Cameron, Nick Clegg and Anna Soubry in about 2021.  But here’s an idea: why don’t we circumvent the future humiliating apologies, and all the years of miserable attempts at integration and just not fling open our borders in the first place?

Crazy talk, I know.

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Show comments
  • Agrippina

    I think that the govt should consider doing the following. A possible solution to the immigration prob and how to try and reduce the numbers.

    Illegals and other undesirables should be put on military planes and dropped off in the desert with some water. They can then make there way to some african country and from thence, to the actual country they left for economic reasons.

    As it is clear that upon arrival here they dispose of their docs and lie about where they hail from and UKBA cannot issue them with passports, so they just leave them here.

    Which also means that all the technology that is supposed to log these people coming in patently doesn’t work or the govt has lied to us. Because if they know where they came from, they could ask those govts to issue passports for their nationals. Thus ethiopians claiming to be from sudan or somalia would be detected as lying and kicked out, instead of given asylum.

    This would work as word would get back and the monies already spent trafficking themselves here would have to be repaid somehow. Not our prob.

    Our govt and military would deny all knowledge, end of story.

  • Bert3000

    We should start by sending the idiotic Murray back to Scotland.

  • black11hawk

    The thing which annoys me the most is that the three main parties have now decided it’s acceptable to slag off Eastern Europeans as they’re white and therefore any insults against them are fine, but talking about immigration from anywhere is a still a big taboo, particularly Islamic countries. Considering non-EU regulation accounts for two thirds of the annual influx of people it might be worth revisiting this notion.

    • Daniel Maris

      The Roma are more Asian (Indian) than European, so not particularly “white” but otherwise I agree with the point you make.

  • Augustus

    It is no coincidence that prostitutes and victims of trafficking in human beings often have a Roma background. It’s all part of Roma culture and the servicing of the family income. It’s normal even for children to steal, and many young women have no choice but to work as prostitutes. A survey from the University of Utrecht estimates that 40/80 per cent of the victims of trafficking in human beings in the Netherlands alone have a Roma background. But the criminal activities of the Roma populations are simply just part of their culture, are they not? And aren’t they lucky to have so many countries to go to where they can practice their glorious culture and be welcome?

  • Radford_NG

    Enoch Powell told how it was in 1968;and look what happened to him. SEE http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643823/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html

  • allymax bruce

    Here’s what a Labour ‘peer’ told the Daily Mail; … “Lord Glasman, … told BBC Radio 4 : ‘What you have with immigration is the idea that people should travel all over the world in search of higher-paying jobs, often to undercut existing workforces, and somehow in the Labour Party we got into a position that that was a good thing.‘Now obviously it undermines solidarity, it undermines relationships, and in the scale that it’s been going on in England, it can undermine the possibility of politics entirely.’ [Glasman], criticised Labour for being ‘hostile to the English working class’.He said: ‘In many ways [Labour] viewed working-class voters as an obstacle to progress.‘Their commitment to various civil rights, anti-racism, meant that often working-class voters… were seen as racist, resistant to change, homophobic and generally reactionary.‘What you have with immigration is the idea that people should travel all over the world in search of higher-paying jobs, often to undercut existing workforces, and somehow in the Labour Party we got into a position that that was a good thing.‘Now obviously it undermines solidarity, it undermines relationships, and in the scale that it’s been going on in England, it can undermine the possibility of politics entirely’‘So in many ways you had a terrible situation where a Labour government was hostile to the English working class.’- ‘Maurice Glasman. Daily Mail.”

    Seems to me, Labour had every intention of flooding UK with immigrants; unlike liar Straw that called his faux-pas ‘an untinentional mistake’ !
    Labour cannot stop lying!

  • AtMyDeskToday

    Just a little taster of what we can expect when our friends the Roma get to the UK…
    In Mallorca in May I had my wallet lifted by a couple of Roma thieves, lost 165 Euros and had to cancel all my credit/debit cards.
    Last week a fraudster in Romania loaded my new card with 12K+ Pounds, which I am now in the process of disputing with Barclaycard.

    • Patricia

      Well in our little neck of the woods, over the last week Roma have been spotted watching people at four different cash points within a twenty mile radius, a gang have done a local jewellers and there have been six distraction crimes. I hate this to sound like a witch hunt, but sadly, these events are happening – I wish they weren’t.
      Why won’t Romania look after them ?

  • Hippograd

    All the main parties – including Ed Miliband’s Labour party – admit that
    immigration went badly out of control during the Blair era. But all
    are committed to repeating the same mistake.

    It’s not a mistake: it’s deliberate treachery:

    In many ways [Labour] viewed working-class voters as an obstacle to
    progress. ‘Their commitment to various civil rights, anti-racism, meant
    that often working-class voters… were seen as racist, resistant to
    change, homophobic and generally reactionary. … So in many ways you
    had a terrible situation where a Labour government was hostile to the
    English working class.’

    Miliband ally attacks Labour migration ‘lies’ over 2.2m they let in Britain

  • Treebrain

    Who can ever forget the fascinating sight of watching Gordon Brown being questioned a member of the public in Rochdale about immigration who he immediately dismissed as a ‘bigoted woman’ and was forced into a grovelling apology?

    • Daniel Maris

      Grovelling and UNCONVINCING apology.

  • andy_gill

    The only solution is to vote UKIP in droves. Even if it lets Labour in for a term, it will force a realignment of politics and the destruction of the conspiratorial Westminster consensus on immigration that has devastated this country economically and socially.

    Whatever emerges from that has to be better than the unsustainable status quo.

  • Richard Calhoun

    Your proposed solution is disingenuous at best Douglas, reinforcing our borders is not going to work and we all know it.
    We need to stop fiddling at the edges of this problem and tackle the real problem which as we all know is the welfare & benefits system.
    Immigrants by their very nature were once the tougher more aspirational people but with the generous pickings in the UK many just come for the handouts who wouldn’t if they were not there.
    We can’t afford to stop immigration, it’s good for our economy & standard of living, but we can stop the nonsense of £Billions in handouts

    • outraged

      I can see now that those immigrants who came here with the intention to cheat and exploit the system were right.

      We, who came to play by the rules and make careers are being constantly smeared and bullied for God knows what sins. We are the ones who are the losers – the benefit spongers turned out to be the smart ones.

      It makes me sick.

      • Richard Calhoun

        Its not the people who are at fault but the system, its obvious a faulty system will cause unintended consequences.
        It’s not immigrants that are the problem its our political elites who do not deal with the problem which they have created.
        And before you get too sick remember who voted them in

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Looks as if my restrained comment has bitten the dust. Again. “You can`t handle the truth.” Game Over Britisher pals. Net Immigration plus net emigration is the only significant datum you require. That gives population turnover, thus allowing you to calculate how many years you`ve got before there are more of them than there there are of you.
    But as I said before, you`re letting the wrong people in and keeping the right people out.
    Jack, the Japan Alps Brit

    • Daniel Maris

      Just out of interest, how do you justify yourself being in Japan?

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        Easily. Patriotism is so last season. Flash to reality, it`s highest bidder time.
        Jack, Japan Alps

    • Bonkim

      Not just quantity but quality – and the nett incoming is mostly rubbish and the nett outgoing a loss to Britain.

  • Will Kettel

    Their not sorry about mass immigration, their sorry that the issue is going to cost them votes. But they probably predicted this, their eye was fixed on the long term objective of transforming the British electorate, slanting it in Labour’s favour and rendering right wing arguments invalid.

  • Daniel Maris

    Douglas, one thing you haven’t commented on what is happening in Sheffield. I was appalled but not amazed to find that Police sanctioned Muslim patrols are touring the streets telling the Roma people that they have to get off the streets and go inside their homes. As far as I know we have no mandatory curfew in this country. But it appears the Police are approving these Sharia patrols.

    • Penny

      Daniel – is this actually “muslim patrols” (as in the London example) or is it part of a genuine initiative? The reason I ask is that I’ve come across a Word document that outlines several legitimate schemes run by various “champions” designed to – hopefully – avert problems.

      • Daniel Maris

        I am ready to bet a large amount of personal credit that the Pakistani patrollers in Sheffield will have come from the Mosque and been approved by the Mosque committee. That is why they will be Muslim patrols.

        There is no place in the UK I believe for these Righteousness Police on the Saudi Arabian model. In case you haven’t noticed, it’s not actually an offence to talk to your neighbour of an evening. If a disturbance is being caused, that is a matter for Police or local authority (if it’s noise nuisance). If you can’t see the dangers in these patrols then you are incredibly naive. What if they start telling women they can’t walk close to a Mosque in a short skirt. What will you think then?

        • Penny

          You misunderstand me, Daniel (or I explained poorly!)

          I would not, in any way, shape or form condone the type of patrols you describe and completely agree with your points. The Word document I read was an “official” thing, describing the various initiatives already underway which are designed to integrate the Roma into British society. It listed organisations currently doing this: one of them was a Pakistani organisation. I was simply querying whether or not these initiatives – which, as far as I could see were calling their work “championing” and didn’t look at all like the scenario you describe – had somehow been interpreted as “muslim patrols”.

          I wish I could find the link but it’s buried in a telegraph blog comment section which, when I last looked, was garnering comments at the speed of light. If you’ve got a link to the patrols you’ve mentioned I can tell you if it’s in any way similar – memory allowing!

          • Penny

            Just to add, Daniel, that the basic premise of this document is the Roma’s great distrust in “authority”, which – apparently – leads them to avoid the very institutions that could help avert problems. (police, schools, health, education etc) Thus, the “championing” is citizen-based – for example, a “buddying” scheme between children. Apparently, this has helped with trust issues which in turn, may lead to better integration.

          • Penny

            Just to add, Daniel, that the basic premise of this document is the Roma’s great distrust in “authority”, which – apparently – leads them to avoid the very institutions that could help avert problems. (police, schools, health, education etc) Thus, the “championing” is citizen-based – for example, a “buddying” scheme between children. Apparently, this has helped with trust issues which in turn, may lead to better integration.

  • Daniel Maris

    Crazy talk indeed! – I am going to send Anna Soubry (never knowingly admitting to her own migration background for some weird reason) to give you right old dressing down in her mock Thatcher tones. :)

  • mos

    Hey Douglas, do you mind not bundling us up with Southern European Gypsies?
    What do we have to do with them? Is someone telling you to write this kind of absurdities?

    Thank you in advance for your understanding.

    • Daniel Maris

      Incisive rebuttal…and economical on the old keystrokes.

  • Agrippina

    Blunkett also said they do not tend to bother with education. So in essence they will come over for the benefits. It is a mystery as to why all the eastern bloc countries were permitted to join without some sort of test as to where they were in there development. Structurally they are weak.

    Rom&Bulg have had vast sums of EU euros, where has that money been spent and if their citizens have chosen not to go to school etc why on earth should they be foisted upon British taxpayers. It is not for us to civilise them.

    Let the 6 founding members of the EU take in this lot on the basis they wanted free movement, they can bring them up to scratch.

    We should simply say no in January. They are illiterate they will not be able to support themselves, ergo not permittted entry. cameron said that people unable to support themselves will be sent home. Another promise gone by the wayside.

    Let them sue us and we can sue Rom &Bulg for failure to provide the basics of education, adequate housing, etc to them.

    Vote for anyone who puts Brits 1st. We are the most densely populated in EU.

    • sarah_13

      We are indiscriminately inheriting all their problems. It isn’ t as if its the bulgarians fault. Of course they want to come here, we would expect nothing else. But the government’s first priority is to our safety and welfare, not to every other state of the eu. If our government doesn’t change the present rules then how can we blame them for taking advantage. And of course now we have a situation when we can’t say we’d rather they don’t come here without being accused by the bulgarians of being racist, or discriminating against them. Well done, one more aggrieved group to deal with. The free movement legislation is being completely abused it is certainly not beyond the wit of a decent lawyer to argue that this was not the spirit of the legislation, to move here to claim benefits because their home country won’t, there is no agreement if the contracting parties did not have in their minds the same agreement. in any event the thing to do would be to unilaterally simply say to eu we can’t allow this, we are about to renegotiate are from a public policy, safety public order point of view we cannot allow any further immigration uncontrolled, free movement is now not what it was intended and in any event we want to change the terms of membership or we just give the country a referendum. I suppose cameron won’t do this but it would be an idea rather than waiting for civil unrest and the emergence of really extreme parties responding to the disempowerment of british people, power ceded to european ex moaist bureaucrats like Barrosso.

      • global city

        No. The free movement of people is a cornerstone of the EU project… it is absolute.

        there really is only one option.

        • Bert3000

          Yes let’s live in a closed country, like the old East Germany or North Korea. That would be nice.

          • global city

            Did I say that? Only a loon would read that into what I wrote. Liverpool, city of immigrants. The UK has always been a mongrel breed…etc….ALL well before the advent of the UE and it’s ideological notions.

    • outraged

      sadly, after communists left, former Western block started asset stripping our economies.

      we should have never let Western Europe and US anywhere near out national resources. We would be so much better for it.

      You people disgust me.

    • outraged

      And you suddenly trust Blunkett’s opinion about our education? And what does he know?

      I have news for you – its true that the Soviet Union was forcing on us Russian language and the Marxist version of history (was he not English, btw?). However we did not have to bother about gender studies and other fake subjects taught at Western Universities – designed to damn you down. We concentrated on real subject, maths, logic, technology.

      You must have confused us with British ex-colonies, but given YOUR education, I am not at all surprised.

  • Raw England

    Stop all immigration now. The actual people of this country (England) want all immigration to stop immediately. This is now a very, very sinister situation. Not only that, the people (the ethnic English) want the millions of immigrants already here, sent home.

    • Mynydd

      In Wales we say the same thing about the English immigrants. Go home.

      • crosscop

        And all the Joneses, Prices, Williamses etc etc who live in England can go back to Wales?

        • chan chan

          Hate speech alert! The Ministry of Truth will be after you. Be careful…

      • Lucy

        lol, i lived in Wales with my mother, and we both have English accent’s! Oneday my mother went to the butcher’s and asked for some meat. The welsh butcher said in Welsh, “let’s rip this English bitch off” when they handed my mother the change over, my mother asked them to give her the proper change! My mother’s then said, i am actually Welsh and i just understood every word you said, don’t be fooled by my English accent, i am a Welsh woman! In fact my ancestor was a famous Welsh hymn write he was called William Williams Pantycelyn, he wrote “Guide me, O thou great Jehovah” lesson to fellow Welsh people,if your thinking of being rude to someone with an English accent, don’t automitcally presume they are English, because they could be one of your fellow Welsh brother’s or sister’s!

    • Jackthesmilingblack

      Somewhat to the right of the BNP I venture to suggest.

  • JoshuaCzajkowski

    A sensible person is not against all immigration. A sensible person realises that yes some immigrants contribute massively to this country and enrich us as a nation, however, uncontrolled immigration leads to divided communities, stresses on infrastructure, extreme wage deflation, high unemployment, increased danger for women and homosexuals(Especially when Islam is involved) and the rise in far-right parties.

    • Raw England

      You lost me and all other sane people with “A sensible person is not against all immigration”. Let me educate you sir:

      You may not have not noticed, but our cities are non English majorities. And, even stopping all immigration now will still mean we will become a minority in our own country due to birth rates alone.

      So being urgently against all immigration is the ONLY sane position to take now.

      • JoshuaCzajkowski

        Well don’t vote UKIP then, as they support a figure around 20-50,000 a year.

        You have to face reality, unless the BNP(Let’s hope to god they never do) get into power, there will never be zero migration in and out of the UK.

        Also the “Let me educate you sir” was very un-British if i say so myself. It sounded patronisingly American.

      • Bonkim

        Are the English genetically homogeneous or as is the historic fact a mongrel race and the stronger for that. Inbreeding creates imbeciles, so in some ways immigration is good for the British gene. But need to concentrate on quality and not just numbers.

    • Daniel Maris

      I think you have it about right. In age of jet travel, the internet, and English as a world language, the idea of a zero immigration policy seems an absurdity.

    • Bonkim

      agree need to concentrate on quality – not numbers.

    • outraged

      lol! have you seen this?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuxksNkmFiw

      look @ 9:50 – question about bearded women.

    • Flintshire Ian

      just out of interest, in what way do you think that the mass importation of non – English speaking unskilled and semi skilled labour and their dependants from Eastern Europe (never mind the sub-Saharan Africans and the Bengalis) has contributed massively to this country?

      • JoshuaCzajkowski

        I don’t, i clearly stated that mass immigration is extremely damaging. I would advise reading my comment in detail before replying.

  • Tom M

    Why do they keep on making the same mistakes? Because they can’t do anything about it. They know this but they keep sweet talking the electorate with some other wheeze such as the one you refer to “tighten our borders”. It cannot be done under the current EU treaties..
    They can’t (or more like won’t) do it but the people of Britian can. I suggest we do.

  • post_x_it

    The same thing happens on every issue, such as this one: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tomchiversscience/100080673/so-thats-two-chief-science-advisors-several-top-doctors-a-government-minister-a-chief-constable-and-a-few-peers-of-the-realm-can-we-now-discuss-decriminalising-drugs/
    Every one of these muppets suddenly gets it once they’ve left office. Meanwhile, their successors carry on with the same stupid groupthink nonsense as if no previous evidence had ever existed.

  • Keith D

    Blunkett now says that the influx of more Roma into Britain could lead to riots in British cities.

    There will be riots in British cities OK Blunkett. But your nasty piece of deflection isn’t washing with anyone.

    The threat is not the Roma, we all know where the real threat lies, and it was you and your cabal of traitors that encouraged them here in droves.

    I hope one day to see you all in the dock for this treason, but of course I wont.

  • Ricky Strong

    Ground hog day all over again..

    Person A – We need to control immigration and can only do so by having control of our boarders, this will require leaving the EU to abolish the free movement of persons, asylum and immigration Directive

    Person B – You’re a racist, fascist and are scaremongering people.

    Person B some time later – We need to try and control immigration

    Person A – Controlling immigration will require leaving the EU to abolish the free movement of persons, asylum and immigration Directive

    Person B – You’re a racist, fascist and are scaremongering people

    Person B some time later – We need to try and control immigration

    Repeat ad infinitum

    • edlancey

      I think Ad Nauseum would be more like it.

  • Patricia

    Why are Roma here ? They have no skills and spend all of their days just scavenging. Like millions of others, I pay tax on a tiny income which will go some way towards feeding and housing these people who have done nothing and who are unlikely to do anything in return for this country.
    I really cannot believe this situation is being allowed to happen.

    • Daniel Maris

      Oh well, look on the bright side – the Roma do not represent a fundamental and existential challenge to our constitution and our freedoms in the way a certain other well known peace-loving supercult do. :)

  • Cheese Blunder

    There are a couple of points I’d make in response to this Douglas.

    1. The regret Jack Straw expressed was over the failure to implement transitional controls on A8 nations in 2004 – a mechanism that would have slowed the pace of immigration from these nations by placing some conditions upon right to work for example. Straw does not appear to have said there should have been no immigration from these nations, rather that allowing uncontrolled immigration was the mistake.

    Romania and Bulgaria (A2) were subject to precisely these transitional controls and this did indeed restrict the numbers coming to the UK from these states. Jan 1 2013 sees the end of these seven year transitional measures, the maximum allowed by the EU.

    But a key related point is that in 2004 the UK was one of only three states to allow uncontrolled worker immigration. That had the effect of funnelling A8 immigrants toward these open states and thus probably inflated the amount coming to the UK for lack of other options.

    This will not be the case for A2 workers on 1 Jan 2013. First, all other EU states will remove worker controls (indeed many already have) so the UK will not be one of the few states accessible to these nationals. Second, Romanians and Bulgarians overwhelming favour Italy, Spain and Germany as destinations for a number of cultural and historical factors. Some will of course come but to make a comparison with A8 immigrants in 2004 is both simplistic and misleading.

    The point of the transitional controls over the past seven years was also to control the numbers coming from A2 states and as the piece points out Romanians and Bulgarians have been coming. There are no “floodgates” to open precisely because flood control measures limited the stream and reduced the pressure.

    2. Roma migrants generally took advantage of freedom of movement – an absolute right in the EU – not the worker regime which was subject to control. This meant that those coming did so usually without the intention of working and indeed were often part of criminal or anti-social enterprises (whether this be organised begging or pickpocketing). Removing worker controls will in itself have no impact on this stream of immigrant as the worker restrictions were irrelevant to them as they did not seek entry into the labour market.

    I’ll add the usual caveat that not all Roma are part of criminal or anti-social enterprises, however evidence does suggest that the more common route to the UK for this group has been as part of organised gangs.

    There is a legitimate debate about repatriating immigration powers from the EU but in terms of treatment of A2 workers specifically the UK did impose some of the toughest controls that were legally permitted. Beyond this there are also many instances of harassment and frankly questionable behaviour by DWP and Job Centre staff in dealing with A2s seeking recognition as self-employed that border on the illegal.

    As a final point I’ll say that what you are going to see in statistics is a lot of A2s switching from self-employed to “regular” employment status after 1 January, but it is worth bearing in mind that these people will already be in the UK rather than being new immigrants drawn here by the removal of restrictions.

    • post_x_it

      “Romanians and Bulgarians overwhelming favour Italy, Spain and Germany as destinations for a number of cultural and historical factors.”
      That argument has been rehearsed to death several times over and then some, which doesn’t make it any more true. Whatever “cultural and historical factors” there are won’t count for jack when there’s neither any jobs nor any benefits to be had in Italy or Spain. And trust me, there aren’t. Germany has no opportunities for non-German speakers, plus the labour market is generally much less accessible to newcomers, especially in the skilled trades where Germany is highly regulated.
      The UK is the only EU country that has (a) a recovering economy, (b) a fairly open an unregulated labour market, (c) free healthcare at the point of delivery and (d) a language that almost everyone has a few scraps of. But please carry on convincing yourself that it is not so.

      • Cheese Blunder

        There are around 1million Romanians in both Spain and Italy – they are the main destinations. Spain, certainly, does have its economic woes, but the presence of large existing Romanian communities and support networks – plus the similarity in language and culture – remain undoubted attractions. You can’t waive these factors away with your “well they wont because” response.

        German is also a common language in large parts of Transylvania. I do take your point about Germany generally being a tougher country to crack, but the presence of existing Romanian communities, strengthened after 1989 when some of the Germanic villages of Romania emigrated en masse to Germany, does provide the base and inroad into this country.

        Certainly the UK has its attractions, but these are quite the magnet to all people everywhere that some seem to imagine.

        And of course you might want to engage with the other detailed and factual points I made in my post.

        • post_x_it

          Almost all of the Romanians now living in Spain arrived during the construction bubble when Spain was handing out work permits to anyone who turned up, and well-paid work was easy to come by. Many of them have already left Spain and headed to Britain. There is no reason why the next wave should bother with the interim stop.

    • Tom M

      That clears that up then. For a moment I thought immigration was out of control.

    • Penny

      A valid point I took from this article was our apparent inability to predict the number of immigrants that might arrive here. Will coming controls allow for greater accuracy? This is a genuine question by the way, arising from Blunkett’s comments – which suggest predictions are still wobbly.

    • Daniel Maris

      I think you are underestimating the resourcefulness of certain enterprising Roma who will move from country to country exploiting the weaknesses in the system in each country and reaping the benefits. Why stay in France if you can pop over to the UK, get benefits there and then pop back to France, before you visit Spain, Italy and Germany for similar purposes. There will be all sorts of passport swapping going on BTW. So even if one person is officially in the UK they may be elsewhere. It would be a brave official who actually queried a photo on a passport wouldn’t it, if it looked anywhere vaguely like the individual.

    • Bonkim

      Good analysis – unlike the gut-waffle posted by most others.

    • outraged

      Lest not forget that Brits were coming to Poland en masse since 1990, selling to us their philosophies of democracy, fairness and human rights. In return stripping our assets released by communists. Britain had very good PR in Poland, which unfortunately turned out to be a lie for those of us who gullibly came here.

      • Alexandrovich

        Enough already – just tell us exactly what these assets are that were stripped from you by the British, if you can.

  • Austin Barry

    Let’s see: we’ve got the Islamists who hate and want to kill us, the gangstas who mug and stab us, and now the Roma who, when they’re not scamming our cashpoints, pickpocketing and begging, seem to enjoy strewing rubbish around.

    What lunacy is this?

    • zanzamander

      What lunacy is this?

      I think the word you’re looking for is “multiculturalism”.

    • outraged

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4vzVncozDs

      see what is the problem …

    • dazy Juno

      Er… this is ‘multiculturalism’.

  • crosscop

    Blunkett only opened his trap because it was Sheffield’s Pakistani community who are up in arms about the Roma influx. If it had been white people he would have called them “racists.”

    • greggf

      90% of the UK’s problem about immigration is the grandiose universal welfare state, open to all and asks very few questions about who gets what.
      However the other 10% could be the Roma!

      • mos

        and where would you place annual influx of tens of thousands of so called Indian engineers with fake degrees who come to UK every year for fundamental training and to replace local IT and risk professionals?

        • greggf

          That depends on whether it’s a problem or not mos.

    • mos

      that is super interesting point – there is a growing trend of Pakistanis using fake IDs from Romania. it is documented here:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJdPUUVtdfk

  • zanzamander

    Roma (and to some extent Polish before them) are third world Europeans, so I suppose it is ok for us to talk about them in such disparaging language. But how come no one talks about the immigration from the real third world, immigration of people who bring along with them traditions, practices, culture and belief system totally at odds to us.

    • Mr Grumpy

      There’s little cost in votes for politicians who talk tough about E European immigrants. Coming from the EU they have little or no incentive to acquire British citizenship, so most will not have votes in the next general election. Nor are they moving into established communities of second- or third-generation immigrants.

      • outraged

        Correction: we have strong DISINCENTIVES because of the people like your friend zanzamander.

        Who with modicum of self respect would want to associate themselves with disgusting types who believe that ‘it is OK to talk about us in disparaging tone because for some reason we are worse than our neighbours’. Think about it.

        • Bonkim

          It is a free country and people have their rights to value-judge other languages, and cultures. No one is forcing you to mix with your neighbour, respect their religions or cultures.

          • outraged

            is that good or bad, I am confused….

            • Bonkim

              Freedom of choice – I don’t believe in multiculturalism and am an individualist – The Anglo-Saxon culture has always been individualistic – and individuals do not move in herds.

        • zanzamander

          outraged, I think you have a serious problem with comprehension and reading between the lines. What Mr Grumpy or I am saying is nothing like what you’ve just interpreted.

        • Mr Grumpy

          My friend I have not disparaged anyone except hypocritical politicians. My wife is from another EU country and has retained her original citizenship.

      • Bonkim

        That makes them even more reluctant to integrate within a British way of life.

        • Mr Grumpy

          I don’t think there’s much correlation actually. We have no shortage of Islamists with British passports.

          • Bonkim

            Islam is a special case – they have no nationality as they believe in an earth populated by Muslims.

            • Mr Grumpy

              That’s a gross over-generalisation.

    • outraged

      That is disgusting. how Polish people are ‘third world Europeans’, how are we worse than Germans or French? How? Who decided that?

      (and what on earth do we have in common with Roma????????)

      You are using the language straight from the Hitler’s Mein Kampf, in which he argued that Polish people are untermenshen who deserve to be killed or enslaved to provide lebensraum for the race of german masters. Is that your opinion of us?

      People like you make me want to hang myself.

      • Bonkim

        What is stopping you – Common theme – Catholics and higher birth-rates similar to immigrants from Asia and Africa. Britain is a small island and bursting at the seams, with a 75% dependency index – and the projected population increase to 70 + millions will just kill Britain. It will not be a green and pleasant land with groups of different cultures and languages living in voluntary apartheid – ghettos already forming in many urban areas of Britain.

        • outraged

          ??? sorry you do not make any sense.

          And we have absolutely nothing to do with Asians and Africans, as opposed to colonialist England, by the way.

          • Bonkim

            You are racists and have no historic or cultural connection with Britain and will destroy Britain as any immigrant from Africa or Asia.

        • outraged

          And up till now I believed that conspiracy theories saying that the EU puppet masters want to reduce our population to 15 millions are rubbish.

          Now I am not so sure, there may be some kernel of truth to it.

          • Bonkim

            The earth is overpopulated and the new immigrants have high birt-rates – Catholic, Muslim and others from Africa. Too many people is bad for earth and for Britain regardless of where you come from. Also you appear to be a racist as most Europeans are and will destroy the British values of fairness, and tolerance. Sounds strange but tolerating the intolerant is no good for British society. So far most immigrants had a historic connection with Britain and those from the EU don’t and will integrate less.

            • outraged

              where do I sound racist? you clearly hold unfair prejudice, dear.

              anyway, I m done with you. you may consider yourself British, but most of Brits are actually decent people.

              • Bonkim

                You mean tolerant to the point of being blind to others exploiting their tolerance? The sharks take advantage of the meek.

                • outraged

                  The problem is, that you are not going after sharks. You are going with the mob after decent, hard working, God fearing and law abiding folks because its easy, and you are bowing down to sharks. No offence, but its a bit like proverbial “bite the hand that feeds them, lick the boot that kicks them.”

                  UKiP and Refco-Farage are pro German and explicitly against Poland. You do the math.

                • Bonkim

                  Difficulty understanding the logic – Not sure where the anti Poland sentiment is from – Germans are hardworking and disciplined, and I have nothing against the Poles – historically Poland and Britain were together during WW2.

                  Nobody is running with the hounds – Migration is driven by economic and social potential difference – that is also historic.

                  There are good people amongst all nations, but those migrating do cause considerable social dysfunction when the numbers become large. Many Poles also emigrate to the US, Germany, etc.

                  Look at the situation if hundreds of thousands of Bangladeshis suddenly started streaming into Poland.

                  The Roma population are discriminated against and exploited in many European countries – now think about how Poles think about others that are different from them coming to work and settle in Poland..

              • JackyTreehorn

                “where do I sound racist”? well you did try and distance yourself from being like the Roma, and I don’t blame you.

                • outraged

                  I am simply correcting the misconception expressed in the above article. Its like stating that 2+2 does not equal 5. If I were born Romanian I would be a fiercely patriotic one.

                  I am unsure about the origin of the beggars who are sleeping rough in the Park Lane (fact!) and I am pretty sure that the Gypsies, who are known to be proud, musical and industrious people, would distance themselves from these beggars, who look and behave just like the beggars I saw in New Delhi.

      • zanzamander

        I don’t think you’re getting what I’m trying to say here.

        Let me explain: You see, media and politicians in this country have never said things about immigration and immigrants the way they’ve all started saying about the Roma (and to some extent Poles).

        Up until the Poles and other EEs, we only had people from the “real” third word (and mainly Muslims from Pakistan, Bangladesh and India) coming here, who to many of us, represented people of values that were directly opposite to our own (not at all like Poles) and therefore bringing about a far bigger change to our society than the Poles (or other EEs) ever could – seeing that they’re (the EEs) mainly from Judo-Christian society with many a shared values and culture.

        Yet, despite this, our media and politicians never uttered a word. Now that we have immigrants from other “poorer” part of Europe coming here, all of a sudden immigrants are open season! But still note, not a word about those coming here under all sorts of pretenses from war torn Islamic countries and other such parts of the world.

        I have never heard such disparaging things said about those who really deserve it, but because of our “racist” antenna at the alert, we shy away from talking about immigrants from the real third world. In other words, because you guys have a paler pigmentation, it is ok to insult you whereas the migrants with a darker hue get a free ride.

        I could go on explaining but I think there is enough for you there to realise where I’m coming from. If not, then I’m sorry if I’ve upset you to such an extent that you’d want to hang yourself! I mean, nothing that has been said about anyone here is that drastic.

        If it makes you feel any better, I’d rather have 100 Poles than 1 from an Islamic country.

      • Jackthesmilingblack

        That`s Brits for you. Racism runs through them like “Blackpool” through rock.

        • crosscop

          If that were true, the BNP would be in power.

          • outraged

            Racism against people who happen to be white does not make it any less racist (it pertains to the skin colour OR nationality). Refco-Farage goes after eastern neighbour of Germany in which he supports German so called ‘Politics of History’.

            Unfortunately, it is still OK to persecute white people, therefore UKiP can get away with their shade of racism.

    • Treebrain

      zanzamander,

      Are you referring to practices such as ritual religious slaughter like halal and kosher or child genital mutilation like circumcision and FGM?

  • zanzamander

    After Anna Soubry’s little performance and letting the cat out of the bag, let there be no misunderstanding, Tory party is a party FOR immigration. All this talk about immigration control is lies and damn lies.

    There is nothing to choose between the two main parties on this matter. The only party that does mean what it says is Ukip. So if you really and clearly want to send out a message to all these liars, vote Ukip. They’re the only party of protest. That is, unlike me, if you believe in democracy and ever care to vote.

    • telemachus

      “Tory party is a party FOR immigration”
      Untrue
      May is the most vicious unprincipled Home Secretary on this

      As for UKIP

      “You do not talk facts, you talk prejudice. That’s what you talk, and you scaremonger and you put fear in people’s hearts.

      • zanzamander

        “You do not talk facts, you talk prejudice. That’s what you talk, and you scaremonger and you put fear in people’s hearts.

        All fascists start by first playing the victim card and calling their critics names. Soon the debate is closed, table are turned and they start sending the hand that fed it to the gallows.

        So I’m not buying your little deflection and name calling for one minute. I’ll leave that to the stupid, gullible and well picked QT audience.

        And talking about facts, here’s one: Labour in less than ten years let in more migrants into this country than the total who came here in the previous thousand year!

        • ilpugliese

          You have a lot of stable doors to be closed.

      • zanzamander

        Here’s a little publicity slogan for Ukip (foc):

        “When you hear Tories talk tough on immigration, remember Anna Soubry”.

        • Daniel Maris

          Well let’s make it even shorter shall we? – “Remember Soubry” as in “Remember the Alamo”.

      • Nick

        Yours is a pretty stupid reply to Zanzamanders post.
        Why did you post such a stupid response?

        • Colonel Mustard

          I think the clue to that question is in the word that precedes ‘reply’ and ‘response’ in your comment.

          • Nick

            Hello Colonel.Very very stupid stupid.
            Well spotted sir…;-)

      • Colonel Mustard

        “Of course apologies are normally intended to draw a line under a matter.”

        I don’t think they are in this case. I think the Labour party are cynically preparing the ground to enable them to attack the Coalition on immigration and appear righteous when the Romanian/Bulgarian influx starts to create unrest. This is being carefully scripted and orchestrated before 1st January so that they can then play the “Tories learned nothing from us despite our mistakes” card. If I’m correct we will shortly be hearing something from Miliband and/or his Praetorians along similar lines. They are clearing the decks so that they can attack the Coalition – always their main purpose.

      • Jules Wright

        Bullshit. And freshly laid.

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