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Ex-Muslims are living the British dream – Britain should support them

28 November 2013

28 November 2013

There was an excellent Radio 4 documentary on yesterday in which Sarfraz Manzoor interviewed a group of people you don’t hear much about – ex-Muslims.

Like all good radio documentaries, it left me wanting to know more about the individuals involved, feeling more confused about the world, and with mixed feelings too. On the one hand I can understand that Dover Beach sadness of people falling away from religion, and why the parents of those interviewed would feel devastated by that loss.

On the other hand, the ex-Muslims are right. They’re right to question the beliefs they were brought up with, and they’re right to see the inconsistencies and those aspects where Islam’s morality clashes with theirs, and to follow what they think to be right.

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It’s also good for the society around them; the irony is that ex-Muslims have embraced the British dream like no others by adopting the mainstream British mode of belief, that is unbelief and scepticism, and yet society not only does not welcomes this, it almost discourages it, is embarrassed by it.

One of the assumptions about immigration was that people from other religions would eventually start to believe as much as Anglicans do, or just leave the faith; yet at the same time the British establishment and state has and continues to protect minority faiths from the sorts of criticism and ridicule that would aide this process. Partly this is out of politeness, or to prevent social disorder, or confusion about race, or part of a political strategy played out both by Labour and Conservatives, secularists and Christians.

Both secularists and Christians have promoted multiculturalism in order to build a society that suited them more, and at the moment I note that New Humanist magazine and the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales are at one on diversity and immigration, although for different reasons, and at least one of them is sure to be disappointed (maybe both). Labour has promoted the mosques for their own ends, but our current government is trying to make itself more ‘pro-faith’, whatever that means, both pro-church and pro-mosque, as if all religions were just a variation of colourful outfits, rather than belief systems that inherently clash surely as secular ideologies do.

In reality the ideal for British social cohesion would be for lots of Muslims (and Hindus and Sikhs) to become atheists, agnostics or very wishy-washy Anglicans. That we can’t admit this is at the heart of the integration problem facing an unbelieving society.

Religion used to be the way to join the tribe. In the 19th century a second or third generation immigrant could put away his ethnicity by one single act – joining the Church of England. One could still be a Catholic or Jewish Englishmen, just as one can be Muslim and British today, but taking that sacrament was an expression of total immersion, almost a baptism of identity, and one far more powerful than answering a set of questions about how many weeks benefit we’re entitled to or what proportion of the UK population is addicted to smack. The issue of assimilation is more important today than it was in the 19th century because minority religions are far larger, and they’re growing. PEW estimate that the percentage of the UK population that is Muslim will pass the 8 per cent mark in the 2020s. And yet the apostasy rate is incredibly small – just 0.5 per cent of Pakistani-Britons described themselves as having no religion in the last census.

So how does one become British now? Sitting in a pub talking about how there is no God seems pretty close to me. How typically perfidious and hypocritical that British society does not acknowledge or welcome this.


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Show comments
  • Girhish Iedhel

    I am an ex Muslim .. but parley No hope in sight for people like me to protect themselves off Muslims intimidation for apostates. hope one day we can claim in public our renunciation of hate cult.

    • Aasiyah Sattar

      The new fashion trend of everyone today is “I’m a ex muslim” , ex muslims to me don’t exist , people who claimed that they were muslim’s at one point in time , weren’t really muslims to begin with, or maybe by chance was born muslim never really cared to practice the religion..now wants an ego booster of “once upon a time, i thought i was a muslim” ..hate cult ?? Look around you and see where the hurt originated from..

  • BillyCobbett

    ”So how does one become British now?” I always thought it was down to birth.

  • Stephen Gash

    One of the most prominent ex-Muslims in England is Maryam Namazie who is an ardent Marxist. She swans about calling those who question mass immigration “racists”. I know from personal experience. I was also informed she scurried up to a guy who joined one of her anti-sharia protests, and was carrying an English flag, that he wasn’t welcome because the Cross of St George was ‘racist’.

    Namazie exhibits all the typical anti-English traits eagerly promoted by the British.

    As I am English, not British, I’m not especially keen to embrace those kind of British-embracing ex-Muslims.

  • http://www.youtube.com/roadjam RoadJam

    I am happy for these guys and girls that came to see reason. I’ve met ex-muslims before, sad to see them having to leave all their family behind because of rediculous ideas and fairy tales. Good luck to them!

  • Alexsandr

    how to you get rid of the annoying ‘subscribe to the spectator’ pop up at the bottom? Grrrrr.

    it covers the load more comments’ link so you cant.

    what rubbish web design.

    • George Smiley

      It looks like that it is going to stay. The trolls and the non-paying readers at the Economist have to endure the same for years.

  • Two Bob

    how big is England again?

  • Guest

    Another example of Tu Quoque. It is really a shame that you don’t have a clue about this logical fallacy you are so great at.

  • Guest

    Another example of Tu Quoque. It’s really a shame that you don’t have a clue about this logical fallacy you’re so great at.

  • George Smiley

    Except that England does not need any more secularist atheists—which are what “ex-Muslims” (non-practising moderate cultural Mohammedans who embraced agnosticism or atheism) are. Mr. Edward West is obviously too young to remember one Tariq Ali and one Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, and the damage that they and their subversive activities have wrought to England.

    The atheists are really the scouts, the agent provocateurs and the useful idiots for England’s, Civilisation’s and Christendom’s enemies. More atheists and agnostics would paradoxically mean more candidates for the conversion to Mohammedanism.

    • Fred Scuttle

      Except that Islam and Christianity are birds of a feather, and the main difference between them is that Muslims don’t ignore parts of their scripture. They should both have remained in the middle east with all the ignorant tribes that dreamt them up in the first place.

      • George Smiley

        Atheism is a modern conspiracy to prepare Europe for the conversion to Mohammedanism.

        • Fred Scuttle

          Don’t be ridiculous. Atheism is the sensible default for humanity, theism is a tribal tool of oppression.

          • George Smiley

            Except man are naturally depraved, and are not usually sensible. Religion is needed for man in the same way as corporal punishment is needed for children.

            • Fred Scuttle

              Weird how both the crime rate and divorce rate is lower among atheists. Weird how Catholics have a higher abortion rate. Weird how the crime rates are lower in more secular countries.
              How do you explain that?

              • George Smiley

                The Centuries-old Protestant Work Ethic.

                • Alexsandr

                  the protestant work ethic was created to make a compliant workforce for the inductrial revolution.

    • Bonkim

      All that shout lord lord will not find the Kingdom of heaven – and by their fruits you will know true Christians – and going by the rubbish you spout – you are no follower of Christ..

  • Newcombe

    Islam is not a minority cult faith.

    • George Smiley

      The correct term is Mohammedanism.

      • Aasiyah Sattar

        The correct term is Islam the religion and muslims are those who practise Islam

        • George Smiley

          No, because true Islam is in fact Christianity. Mohammedanism is not the true religion of God, which is not called “Allah”.

          • Aasiyah Sattar

            That whole statement makes no sense.How would you know that if you don’t even know that Mohammedanism is not even a religion ? What does Mohammedanism mean in any case ? How do you know that Jesus was a christian and not a muslim ? Can I prove to you that the quraan is the word of God ? Even the bible speaks of the coming last prophet Muhammad(saw)..

            • George Smiley

              There is no such a thing as the last prophet. God can send another prophet the next minute if that is the will of God.

              • Aasiyah Sattar

                God told us muslims there will be no other prophet after muhammad

                • George Smiley

                  Perhaps God also invented incorrect religions to test us.

                • Aasiyah Sattar

                  Its the most idiotic thing to say, like are you serious dude ? If you doubt your religion is your own prerogative , i will never doubt mine..are you smoking your sock’s , nothing you say is realistic and makes any sense..lay off the cheap drugs

                • George Smiley

                  One thing that I DO know is, I would never accept that the religion of the suicide bomber, the hijacker of aeroplanes and the thrower of acid onto women are the one and only true religion from God. It is a false religion of idiots.

                  It is good to have some doubts, sometimes. It stops you from shouting “Allahu Akbar”, thinking that you would go to see God and His 72 virgins (or becoming one of the 72 virgins) straightaway after pressing the button of the detonator.

                • Aasiyah Sattar

                  Why do you automatically assume that, that has to do with religion ?

                • Alexsandr

                  watch the videos of the murder and butchering of Lee Rigby and hear what the men say. then tell me they are not doing it for religious reasons.
                  we know Islam encourages men to go out killing infidels and those who violate Islamic lands, and has the concept of jihad. why deny it?

                • Aasiyah Sattar

                  I do not need to watch a video to know what’s written in my quraan, just as i would not conclude that the 12 vatican priest charged with rape and molestation of 15 young boys who had been under their care with the bible or christianity.

                  In the linguistic sense, the Arabic word “jihad” means struggling or striving and applies to any effort exerted by anyone. In this sense a student struggles and strives to get an education and pass course work; an employee strives to fulfill his/her job and maintain good relations with his/her employer; a politician strives to maintain or increase his popularity with his constituents and so on.

                  In the Qur’an, Allah specifically praises those who strive to convey His message:

                  “Who is better in speech than one who calls (other people) to Allah, works righteous, and declares that he is from the Muslims.” 41:33

                  Allah declares in the Qur’an:

                  “To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to defend themselves), because they are wronged – and verily, Allah is Most Powerful to give them victory – (they are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right – (for no cause) except that they say, ‘Our Lord is Allah’…. ” 22:39-40

                  The Qur’an permits fighting to defend the religion of Islam and the Muslims. This permission includes fighting in self defense and for the protection of family and property. The early Muslims fought many battles against their enemies under the leadership of the Prophet Muhammad(S) or his representatives. For example, when the pagans of Quraysh brought armies against Prophet Muhammad(S), the Muslims fought to defend their faith and community. The Qur’an adds:

                  “Fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress limits. Lo! Allah loves not aggressors.

                  So no having to initiate a war is against my religion

                • crosscop

                  Surra 5:33 justifies the murder, crucifixion and mutilation of prisoners of war – and you cannot deny it.

                • George Smiley

                  I might reconsider the religion of the Arabs if the Hindus of Hindustan fully accept the Arab religion.

                • Aasiyah Sattar

                  Truthfully ? I don’t give two cow dungs whether you consider it or not , I’m not trying to convert you for pete sake, and basically if i had a choice to convert you, id rather take my chances jumping off a twenty floor building hoping to fly , cause you make no sense at all..Even your sarcasm is riddles ..FYI i had many hindus that i know accept Islam recently so don’t count those chickens before they hatch, i might just hold you to that ridiculous statement..then again never mind

                • Alexsandr

                  is islam is so good why do you have offensive terms like kaffir and infidel.

                  I actually find these terms quite offensive. I dont need someone commenting on my tenets and labeling them.
                  and they are uttered openly to cause offence.

                • crosscop

                  Non-Muslims can only be converted to Islam if Allah wishes it. The Koran states that he decides who will and who will not be a Muslim. Then, when those he has decided will not become Muslims ( because he has “blocked their ears”) die, he tortures them for all eternity for not being Muslims. Your god is quite insane.

                • crosscop

                  Wrong! Mohammad told Muslims there would be no more prophets after him.

            • crosscop

              How do we know Jesus was not a Muslim? Err… because he lived hundreds of years before Mohammad invented Islam, perhaps? Or because he and Mohammad were exact opposites? Jesus would not have got on with your ‘Perfect Man’ at all. He wouldn’t have liked the way Mohammad butchered people who had surrendered and raped captured women, you see.

        • crosscop

          Why can’t they practice it somewhere else? We would have street parties all over the country if they did.

  • David B

    That is a post very close to my heart.

    I became aware of the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain some years ago, as I was involved in setting up a secular discussion board which enjoys friendly links with the CEMB.

    It is a terrible thing that just about every religious org. can easily get the benefit of charitable status, while the CEMB cannot.

    I have just made a donation to them because it is something close to my heart, as I say, and will serve the further purpose of providing me with an excuse for not sending Xmas cards.

  • Agrippina

    A possible solution may be to stop allowing each and every religion to open up faith schools and indoctrinate the youngsters into this stuff. If we had solid English schools teaching the curriculum and RE lessons teaching the major religions that would be fine. Everyone made to go to assembly every day, and act in the nativity each yr, that would help.

    But everyone can do as they please and we facilitate everything, so they can opt out of integrating and don’t even bother to learn the language. They are permitted to bring over some body from the village back home for marriage, thus there is no progress. The folks that came in the 1950’s tried to integrate, since the late 1970’s that has ceased, sheer force of numbers and capitulation by our politicians.

    • David B

      I’m all in favour of getting rid of faith schools.

      Bringing logic and critical thinking into the curriculum seems a better idea to me than compulsory nativity etc- though one likely to be opposed by politicians, big business and religions.

      • anncalba

        But which faith schools? Try getting your child into a C of E or even RC school in a major city – why are they so over subscribed? Most of my own grandchildren go to such schools, there are kids of West Indian desent, Poles, and so on. But no Muslims. My daughter asked her Muslim neighbour which secondary school she would be sending her son to, the reply was “We will send him home, to a Madrassa”. Yeh, right.

  • Daniel Maris

    We could do a lot more to promote freedom of conscience and social mixing.

    We could for instance put in place laws that make it illegal to seek to apply physical or psychological pressure to people who wish to marry out of their faith or wish to leave their faith.

    We could have lessons in school that make it crystal clear each individual may freely choose their religion or abandon the religion of their birth.

    We could bring in school inspections for the parallel Sharia education system.

    There is no political will to do these things.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    “They drove a lorry from Ikea straight away, (you pay, you pay)
    TVs and furniture, it was mostly okay, (you pay, you pay)
    But the flat it wasn`t unsuitable, the Council ‘s run by fools,
    After crossing fifteen countries, we need heated swimming pools…”

  • Bonkim

    It does.

  • black11hawk

    This week’s issue seems to be the most explosive issue for a long time, I hope the Speccie survives the deluge of criticism it will no doubt come under for this week’s brilliant if daring articles.

  • Tom M

    Ex-Muslims? For those for whom it happens then I applaud it. However if this is to imply that this is the start of a general integration with English culture and a general withdrawing of the Isalmic religion from their battle lines then I’m not holding my breath.
    You just have to have a look around the UK to see how far the Christian religious differences have (or haven’t) diminished in certain quarters over the last 300 or so years. I suspect that even with goodwill (for the most part sadly lacking) there will be a similar long haul before anyone sees Islam take it’s place other than as an aggressive and self styled superior religion. Indeed if ever.

    • Bonkim

      Religion is dead in Britain. And rightly so – who wants to believe in superstitions in the 21st century?

      • Uncle Mort

        Christianity may be seriously struggling in this country, unfortunately Islam is far from dead. I have little time for any kind of god worship but at least the church went through the enlightenment and does not take everything literal that is written in the bible. The same cannot be said for Islam.

        I think it is heartening to hear of courageous Muslims dumping their toxic ideoligy but we must realise even if there was the will in the Muslim community to reform Islam into a benign dogma it would take many decades to do so. By which time we may have become a Caliphate.

        • Bonkim

          Are you unsure of English/British culture to withstand bigoted religions? I am not – bigoted religions will only be defeated by standing firm; simply wishing it to go away will not achieve anything but being firm on your own values and opposing any backward trends entering mainstream will secure as also free thinking, and individualism and freedom for others to believe what they want.

          • Tom M

            “…Are you unsure of English/British culture to withstand bigoted religions? I am not….”
            Neither am I but why do I need to put up with it in my own back yard?

          • anncalba

            And who is going to “stand firm”? Schools no longer teach any British history that might offend an incomer; the MSM are terrified of offending Muslims. And people like you and I let of steam on sites such as this, but are very unlikely to go out on the streets and protest (if we were permitted to do so). Civilisations come and go, ours is in terminal, decadent decline.

            • Bonkim

              It is for parents to teach their children the basics of culture and ethics. I have no problem with tolerating any – and you are free to comment freely – pity the British press is bent on sensationalism and not report on the fault lines in a temperate and analytical manner without pandering to political correctness. Extremists only succeed in inviting bigots.

              • anncalba

                Just tried to reply to the Spectator forum, and was not recognised by Disqus – repeated requests to sign in, my user name and password not recognised. Why?

      • anncalba

        Religion is dead in Britain? Really? Do you mean Christianity is dead in Britain. Islam certainly is not.

  • http://skadhiblog.wordpress.com/ skadhithjassisdottir

    In this context, ‘unbelief and scepticism’ could also be described as, ‘nihilism’.

  • cbinTH

    It would be interesting to know if the conversion rate amongst those non-Muslims who are exposed to Islam, exceeded the apostasy rate amongst Muslims who are exposed to a secular soicety (as they surely all are).

    I somewhat suspect it would not.

  • Alexsandr

    surely ex muslims are in extreme danger. does the koran not incite jihadists that someone leaving the faith are worse then someone born outside the faith.
    That is what keeps Islam so cohesive, the fear of leaving.

    • David B

      I have a great admiration for ex-Muslims who raise their heads above the parapet, so to speak.

      They deserve our support.

    • Aasiyah Sattar

      That’s the funniest statement ever invented lol

      • Alexsandr

        do expand your thoughts. there was nothing ‘lol’ about my statement. It is a tragic truth.

        look up apostasy on wiki

        or look up the picthall translation of Surat 4:89

        http://quran.com/4/89
        (This offers several translations into English. you select the ones you want by ticking them to the left.

        • Aasiyah Sattar

          Thanx for the link, but i do have my quraan within my reach. Let’s be realistic , how can you be afraid to leave a religion you not happy in ? If you not happy how can you practised it ? How can you follow it ? Its hypocritical and i can promise you that God is not going to come down and choke you to death. We were created to have free will . Imagine walking around saying I’m’a muslim but don’t like my religion..like really ? Convert ? How can you not love your God ? Every religion teaches you to stay away from that which is bad and forbidden and constantly remind you to never go astray ? If you solely believe in the punishment of going astray , it means you believe in that God.. So I’m not sure what extreme danger you’re talking about

          • Alexsandr

            in syria shi’ites killing sunnis and vice versa.
            all over the arab world non muslims being ethnically cleansed.
            look at Malala, gunned down for wanting to go to school by brave juhadis shooting unarmed schoolgirls.
            all in the name of islam.

            And I dont have a god. For there is no god. Its all in the imagination, made up to control others.

            • Aasiyah Sattar

              You don’t need to tell me what’s happening all over the world , trust me i do watch the news ..how would you like me to justify murders ? A killing is taking of a life and i think anyone would agree that no matter what religion it may be no God will permit it, accept for Satanism..These people believe that by screaming “God is great” will be granted heaven..God states in our quraan that its a one way ticket to hell..So you can list the crimes and murder’s to me while i counter list what the quraan states and we could debate all day. I’m not here to tell you that muslim murderous hypocrites are innocent ..I’m here to defend my religion nothing more..I don’t believe in the taliban, i don’t agree in forcing Islam on a country that doesn’t want it, but i believe in the respect to let an individual practised their religion without discrimination. I don’t believe in suicide bombers nor in killing of innocent people calling it Jihaad..I don’t agree in the shariah law of stoning and chopping of limbs although it was practised 1400 , there’s laws already in place to deal with crimes in every country and state..that’s not even what Shariah Law defines in any case..So to me what the muslims do by inflicting pain and installing fear should not be known as muslims..my religion forbids it how can they announce it Islamic ? So please ask me about my religion and I’ll be glad to explain, don’t ask me explain peoples barbaric actions

              • crosscop

                Explain Surra 5:33. You know, the one in which Allah says that Islam’s opponents can be killed, crucified or mutilated.

                • Aasiyah Sattar

                  No i refuse to , it would be the forth time of explaining it to you because you have this urge to keep asking me the same question on every different page every time you see my name, so please do me favor don’t waste my time and go read what i commented..which i doubt you will even bother to because you don’t have time to read right , that’s what you said but you lotsa of time to ask questions

                • Alexsandr

                  clearly we dont understand because we refuse to believe. :(

                • crosscop

                  The Koran justifies murder, crucifixion and mutilation, doesn’t it? Lee Rigby’s killers know that the Koran justifies what they did. Why can’t you admit it? Go on, tell the truth and shame the devil.

                • http://www.youtube.com/roadjam RoadJam

                  Shut the fuck up woman. In your religion you are dirt compared to me.

                • Aasiyah Sattar

                  Toe Jam’ I was not even talking to you ? Go flaunt your masculinity to your b**ches who care ? Idiot God had created all man from dust accept for you, who obviously was shat out

                • ellie

                  to aasiyah, u cn never win an argument with the ignorant, no point stressing urself out . islam doesnt need defending , those people that are learned understand great religions, those that arnt, let thm be.

                • http://twitter.com/AmirTut Amir Tut

                  Truth hurts? According to the Qur’an you can beat your wife if you feel disloyalty. Men are the protectors of women, women In Islam are not equal, cattles actually have more rights.

                • Aasiyah Sattar

                  Which Quraan did you read, where u got that bullcrap from ? Truth ?? You wudnt know what the truth is if it smacked u on the head with a club

                • http://twitter.com/AmirTut Amir Tut

                  I’ve read the classical Rasm Uthmani version, and I’ve read numerous English translations. Here Is the verse from sura An-Nisa: 34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in the husband’s absence what Allah orders them to guard. As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them,refuse to share their beds, beat them, but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means. Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.

                  By the way I’m a Pakistani, you might fool some non-Muslims, but you’re not fooling me.

                • Aasiyah Sattar

                  What does being Pakistani have to do with anything ?? You could be Arab for all i care also , it wouldn’t make a difference to me . You could read a million english translated Quraan’s and still not get it like you obviously just proved.. I still don’t see your point

                • http://twitter.com/AmirTut Amir Tut

                  Reading comprehension, obviously isn’t your strong point.

      • ellie

        most people on here dnt want an informed discussion, thy jus want to antagonise and spout bile, let thm chat crap amongst themselves and leve thm to it. dnt even bother reading the comments on an article

        • crosscop

          I want an informed discussion. Please inform us under what circumstances it is justifiable to kill, crucify or mutilate as per Surra 5:33.

          • ellie

            simple, wen sumbody attacks u thn u hav a right to strike bk. tht verse is against cowardice. . it takes 10 years to study really study the quran. u cnt becum a doctor frm wikipedia, u cnt becum a scholar by googling quranic verses. to understand the quran u need to study it. nt take verses out of context

            • ellie

              also sura 5: 28 and 5:32 talks bout frgiveness and nt retaliating to an extent. . any subject in the world, e.g communism , capitalism , medicine needs to be studied in depth via tutor, to gain a gud grasp it. . self read frm news media wil only giv u biased viewpoints. . one thing i learnt wen studyin history, always study differeing viewpoints frm differing sources to gain an unbiased judgement

              • itbeso

                Actually you couldn’t be more wrong 5:28 is simply part of the recounting of the story of cain and abel from the Old Testament and 5:32 is directed soley at the people of the book. Tell me the verse that comes next if you dare.

              • crosscop

                Studying history? I think that before you can do that, you have at least to be able to read and write properly. You write like a five year old.
                5:32 justifies the killing of people who oppose Islam. It does not talk about forgiveness. And your “nt retaliating to an extent..” that’s a good one, that is! You know as well as I do that the verse is virtually “Thou shalt not kill…except in the following circumstances” and is then followed by the utterly barbaric 5:33 which, as I have pointed out, justifies murder, crucifixion and mutilation.
                Oh, and I my views are not taken from the media. I base them on the Koran – which was given to me by a Muslim years ago – and the Hadith. He knows them inside out. He’s an ex-Muslim these days, though, having come to his senses at last. What should be his punishment for leaving the cult?

            • crosscop

              Strike back? The verse justifies crucifixion and the lopping off of hands and feet. You have to capture somebody to do that. In other words, the Koran justifies crucifying and mutilating prisoners – whatever context you put on it.
              By the way – where did you learn to write – the Muslim School of Gibberish?

            • http://twitter.com/AmirTut Amir Tut

              Wrong, all peaceful verses in the Quran were abrogated with war verses. Quran 9:5, alone abrogates 113 peaceful verses.

  • dandan

    Agree. Easy to see what we could do as individuals to help those joining the mainstream, but is there anything communities / the state could do? Other than toning down promotion of multiculturalism.

  • crosscop

    “In reality the ideal for British social cohesion would be for lots of Muslims (and Hindus and Sikhs) to become atheists, agnostics or very wishy-washy Anglicans.”
    Actually, Ed, the ideal for British social cohesion would be for them all to go back to their ancestral Asian homelands and let us stay here unhindered by their presence in our European one. It’s all about belonging – and they do not belong here.

    • JoeDM

      No. If they are willing to integrate into our normal British way of life then there is no real problem.

      The problem is multicultural separate development of these immigrant coommunities.

      • crosscop

        Why should we be expected to share our homeland with people from other continents?

        • cbinTH

          Because, if tomorrow your mother told you that, actually, she was of, say, French descent and so was your real father, then by your own logic then you would have to move to France, a country of which you are clearly not a part.

          • crosscop

            France is on another continent? That’s news to me. But if the British people wanted me to leave for France, then off I’d go. I don’t think people should stay where they do not belong and are obviously not wanted.
            But – we were talking about Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims – people who belong in Asia.

            • cbinTH

              I applaud you for your readiness to sacrifice yourself for your country.

              By your logic, though, we’ll have to tell Americans to come back to Europe. But what will we do with the Mexicans, who are not exclusively of Indian descent, or with Barack Obama, or with Tiger Williams, who’re a hodgepodge of different nationalities?

              Your logic is unworkable. Sorry.

              • crosscop

                If the majority of the population of America wanted Europeans to return to Europe and African Americans to return to Africa etc – then that would have to be considered. They would have a fight on their hands, though.
                My logic is that we do not allow ourselves to get into the predicament that Native Americans and Aborigines now find themselves. Sadly, it is far too late for them but it is not yet too late for us. You appear to be in favour of us joining them in being a minority in their ancestral homeland. Why is that?

                • Bonkim

                  It is just a question of time – didn’t realise Britain had a homogeneous racial or religious identity – a mongrel race yes – all of us are just that – read up your history if you are English or from any other tribes living in these islands.

                • crosscop

                  I suggest that it’s you who should be reading up on your history. How about starting with “Blood of the Isles” by Professor Bryan Sykes? Your knowledge is obviously sadly lacking.

                • Porphyrogenitos

                  All the worlds nations ancestors are ultimately from somewhere else, even the Andaman Islanders and Australian aborigines. Therefore to say that all Britons are descended from immigrants is to say absolutely nothing of substance. Alternatively if you mean that relatively speaking that the British are a nation of immigrants compared to other nations, then this is simply untrue, immigration until the last part of the twentieth century was tiny proportionate to the size of the total population. Other Europeans had far greater population changes over the previous millenia than Britain e.g. Spain and Hungary among others.

                • Bonkim

                  The concept of nation state with defined territorial borders is recent in history Most nations in Europe were formed and even the older – France for example altered in the mid-twentieth century. There was no Germany before WW1.

                  Britain had waves of people over the two millennia, English is a Germanic language, there is a mix of European and even African blood flowing through today’s English veins – history over the past few centuries.

                  You will have check with ethnographers about the gene mix in Britain – not just recent.

                  All through history gene mixing and immigration have been part of social history – whether you like it or not or whether you imagine to have some unique superior parentage, the world does not care much.

                  Race, religion, and language have defined tribal and national groups – and has always been and will be topics of social conversation.

                • crosscop

                  No Germany before WWI, eh? You’re not very good at history, are you? Dismally bad, in fact.

                • Bonkim

                  Present day Germany arose from Germanic tribes in the region, consolidating into the German Empire 1871, Bismarck – the central Reischstag had limited powers and control over the different parts – and consolidation and clear boundaries of present day Germany followed from the Treaty of Versailles and also changed after WW2. So yes – the nation states as you see today are the creation of the 20th century.

                • CBinTH

                  I’m not in favour of my racial identity-group (I call it identity-group because ultimately our sense of race is derived from our minds rather than from any sort of clear-cut division or difference – so that I happily identify with Boudicia and Caractacus, even if they were technically “Welsh”, – but even though it is in our minds our sense of race is still important in how we see ourselves, as are the other identity groups with which we identify ourselves) becoming a minority anywhere, let alone overall in their own “motherland”.

                  But just because something is bad that doesn’t mean it should overwhelm the importance of everything else, or that extreme measures are justified in preventing it from coming about.

                  Deporting a person based upon their race is wrong simply because it is an unpleasant hurtful thing to do to that individual, but in addition the policy is completely unnecessary if all you want to do is maintain the majority of the dominant group. Deportation based on racial principles is also pretty much unworkable. In addition, even airing such a notion must lead to the impression that you have a feeling of hostility to those of another race, leading to a feeling of alienation between them and yourself (and therefore them and us). And a feeling of alienation, as well as leading to practical everyday problems, will make it impossible to either absorb them into our own identity (so that they think of themselves as English, and identify with Boudicia and King Arthur) or to construct a new overall identity in which both they and ourselves can be included.

            • NoCrossNoCrescent

              Just like the Nazis told Jews they did not belong in Germany.

              • crosscop

                Just like the Native Americans and Aborigines told Europeans they didn’t belong?

                • NoCrossNoCrescent

                  It’s pretty rich of someone demanding brown people know their place to compare himself to…brown people.

                • crosscop

                  I’m comparing what’s happening to my people to what happened to the Aborigines and Native Americans. The colour of their skins has nothing to do with it. Why should we put up with being outnumbered by foreigners in our ancestral homelands? Is it because we is white?

                • NoCrossNoCrescent

                  Well you are lying again. The comparison is laughable. Having a Chinatown in your city is not a threat to your existence, unlike having a Massachusetts Bay Colony next door. I can’t for the life of me believe you don’t see the difference. And I don’t have to. You have already indicated your real motive. You are a racist. The sight of people who are different bothers you. The comparison to native peoples is just your cover story.

                • crosscop

                  Having a Chinatown? Are you insane? This is what is happening in my country –

                  http://topconservativenews.com/2013/12/brutal-hate-crime-mob-beating-on-a-london-bus/

                • NoCrossNoCrescent

                  The answer to which, of course, is to raise racial tensions even further, like you are doing…
                  And the incident, unfortunate as it is, is entirely similar to setting up a Jamestown colony. Got that.

                • crosscop

                  The answer is to repatriate the colonists. I don’t know where your ethnic homeland is – but I guarantee its people would not agree with you if they were being outnumbered by colonists from other lands. Do you really think they would be happy to become a persecuted minority in their own capital city? Come on, tell the truth.
                  By the way – “raise racial tensions”? What are we supposed to do, lie back and think of England as we are over-run? Meekly surrender our homeland rather than have people like you – who doesn’t even live here – calling us “racists”? You are in for a real surprise in the next few years. The British have had just about enough. And you wouldn’t like us when we are angry. One more major Muslim atrocity should do it.

                • NoCrossNoCrescent

                  Riiight. Being outnumbered. By whom exactly? Others who are mostly British, just have a different skin color? Oh I forgot, they don’t count as British to you. But how dare anyone hurt your tender feelings by calling you a racist. Poor baby!
                  I already know there is plenty of racism out there. Doesn’t surprise me one bit. On the other hand-you speak of Muslim atrocities but you hate Hindus, Sikhs and others as well. What do they have got to do with Muslim atrocities except-that it is just an excuse for persecution of those who are different, the vilest manifestation of tribalism?

                • crosscop

                  The British are outnumbered in London and probably Birmingham and Leicester by non-Britons. People like you may obtain an American passport but you will never be a Native American, will you? And neither will your children or grandchildren. You cannot become an Apache and a Bangladeshi cannot become a Briton.
                  You can call me a “racist” as often as you want. It’s just water off a duck’s back. As I’ve already said, if opposing the colonisation of my country makes me a “racist” then I’m proud to be one. All nations have the right to oppose colonisation. For some strange reason you think it’s an insult.
                  You actually don’t have a clue, do you? It’s not that I hate Hindus, Africans, Poles etc – it’s that I hate them colonising my country. I just love ’em when they stay where they belong.
                  Now, are you going to deny that your own ethnic group would oppose aliens from other continents taking over their cities? Tell me what nation you sprang from and let’s see if there’s any evidence that they wouldn’t.
                  BTW – The “vilest manifestation of tribalism” is colonising another tribe’s territory without their consent; and in my country – it’s the Britons who are being colonised and persecuted.

          • BillyCobbett

            That’s bollocks.

      • itbeso

        The valuing of a culture/religion that is has no value here is the problem. We must start to stand up to what is intolerable.

    • NoCrossNoCrescent

      Lol, nice day example of racism, pure and simple. Like it was not the British for centuries all over various continents far away from home?

      • crosscop

        None of my ancestors ( going back to the 1500s) went to “various continents” – they stayed here, working the fields, factories and mines. And so did the ancestors of the overwhelming majority of Britons who live in Britain today. Don’t try pinning your “imperialist guilt” on me or them.
        BTW – If objecting to your country being invaded and colonised is “racism, pure and simple” then I’m a racist and proud of it. I’m in the good company of “racists” like Ghandi, Leonidas, Vercingetorix, Cochis, Cetewayo etc etc. Who are your heroes – Quisling, Cartimandua and Ephialtes?

        • NoCrossNoCrescent

          Eh, what? “Invaded”? “Colonized”? Did someone (born in UK but guilty of having a brown skin) put their flag down and declare your hometown part of their empire? Which the British proudly did for centuries and now you are trying to disassociate yourself from by claiming your DIRECT ancestors didn’t partake of (one heck of a claim, short of having genetic test for all the Red Coats of all ages). And keep patting yourself on the back by saying you are like Gandhi, trying to free your country from those ruling it from continents away. And nice to know also, that you somehow associate my with Quisling, who collaborated with armed invaders of his country. Who are my actual heroes? Tom Paine, author of The Rights of Man and The Age of Reason; and John Lennon, who sang “the brotherhood of man”. (Both British by the way.)

          • crosscop

            John Lennon? The hypocrite who sang about no possessions and drove a Rolls Royce? The “man of peace” who told his homosexual Jewish manager ( Brian Epstein) that Hitler should have finished the job and sang “Baby you’re a rich f@g Jew” to him? The “man of peace” who beat up his friend Stuart Sutcliffe and kicked him in the head (according to Sutcliffe’s sister) and may have caused the brain haemorrhage that killed him? That John Lennon? Your hero, eh? You certainly know how to pick ’em!
            Done my family tree back to the1500s. No Redcoats. Just Royal Artillery in WWI and East Lancs Regt. and RAF in WW2. Farmers as far back as Elizabethan times. If you’re going to whine about British colonies – whine at the Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians etc. Their ancestors did the colonising – not mine.
            BTW – Britain is being invaded and colonised at a rate of 1300 a day and colonies exist in all our towns. Haven’t you been to Blackburn? Haven’t you heard of the words “Ummah” and “Caliphate.” Oh, and my son’s best mate was beaten up in Rusholme by a Muslim gang who told him it was their town. They didn’t have their flag with them at the time – but they all fly the flag of Pakistan at Eid.
            You just haven’t got a clue, have you? Where do you live?

            • NoCrossNoCrescent

              Well it is nice to know you can distract attention from your racism by trashing John Lennon. It is a well known logical fallacy known as “Tu Quoque”.
              So I shouldn’t talk about colonialism in Britian? Only in Canada, Australia etc? Are you suggesting no one in the UK is not a descendant of royal forces, not just you? Absurd as that claim is, it boils down to the red ones having left their descendants in the colonies rather than home. Obviously they were having a good time overseas. Lol.
              I am a US citizen and live in America. If you are bothered so much by a flag maybe you should stop by here some day and visit. Italian, Irish and other flags are everywhere. We’re used to seeing them. No one is bothered by them.
              I am sorry about the violent incident. Yes I have heard the Islamist language and believe it or not I am as disturbed by it as you are. By if you are truthful about your motives doesn’t that mean that ex-Muslim apostates like me are your allies? And rather than help us combat Islamists you lump us with them through your racism? You are seriously messed up.

              • guest

                A lot of us are with you. Don’t mind him.
                I personally have financially contributed to Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s group.

              • black11hawk

                NoCrossNoCrescent, I agree with you on most of what you say. However the US is very different to the Europe in that it is a nation of immigrants, no one apart from the native Americans has truly ancestral roots there. The problem for Europeans is that there was very little migration to and from the various nation states and that which did happen, happened over long periods of time and in small numbers. Compare that to what has taken place over the last 50 years and there is a stark difference. The number of French Huguenots who came to Britain over a period of years and years for example, is around one tenth of the annual gross influx of migrants at present i.e. 50,000 and 500,000. It is difficult then for societies which have little or no experience of immigration to have a huge flow of people coming to their country. This is exacerbated by stark cultural differences and also by the fact that those nations to which this happened, France, Britain etc. had just gone from a period of global power to having no power and were already resentful of that (not the fault of the migrants by any means). I like the mix of people we have here in Britain now and I enjoy trying different foods, listening to different music and so on, however when people come with a set of values which is entirely at odds with that of the existing population that does not augur well for a society. The number of immigrants here is already very high and we could do with a low cap for a few years to let the people who are already here find a way to get along with each other.

                • NoCrossNoCrescent

                  Yes I understand, and that attitude exists here as well, certainly in rural areas where people are not using to crossing paths that are different. I, above all, am for cultural assimilation, and I think immigrants should show their gratitude to the nation that has become their adopted home through learnning the language and understanding its values. On the other hand, our friend here is insisting that everyone whose great great grandparents were not bor in a place doesn’t belong there. Somehow I am glad early humans left Africa and populated the planet-I don’t think we’d all be better off if everyone listened to crosscop.

                • crosscop

                  If everyone had listened to crosscop ( or Enoch Powell) then thousands of people who are now dead would not have been murdered. The 7/7 bombings would not have happened, Keith Blakelock, Stephen Lawrence, Charlene Downes, Kriss Donald, Lee Rigby etc etc etc would still be alive. And thousands of British girls would not have been raped by Muslim gangs.

                  Of course, people like black11hawk think this is a price worth paying so that he can “enjoy trying different foods, listening to different music and so on” as his own people drift towards becoming a minority in their own country. I don’t happen to share this death-wish.

                • NoCrossNoCrescent

                  You are lying. You have already indicated that you don’t just have a problem with Muslims but with Hindus, Buddhists and anyone else who is not lily white because according to you they don’t belong in your neighborhood. I must add you are not very smart, most racists are more tactful about phrasing their hatred for people of different ethnicities than you are.

                • crosscop

                  I believe in calling a spade a spade but I don’t actually hate people of other nationalities. In fact, I enjoy visiting other countries and seeing their culture. However, I don’t want to see North Africa when I go to Paris, Afghanistan when I go to Athens or Morocco when I go to Amsterdam. And when I go to the capital city of my own country, it would be nice to see English people… you know, Cockneys, instead of Bangladeshis.
                  My anti-immigrant stance is not to do with skin colour, either – so you got that wrong too. I also have a problem with “lily white” immigrants. Poles, Romanians and Bulgarians may be very nice people but they do not belong in Britain. They have their own homelands. Hope that clears things up for you.

                • NoCrossNoCrescent

                  Yes it does. Your racism extends to some white people too. Good to know. Of course the ones born in the UK are not going to make you uncomfortable because you can’t tell them apart from other white Brits, so your demand that they go “back” will primarily affect black and brown people. Also you don’t hate them as long as they know their place and do not try to live in the wrong place, as determined by you.
                  At this point I am going to say goodbye. Thanks for giving me a clear cut example of what a racist’s thinking is like. In the future if someone asks what racist talk is like I’ll refer them to this comment page and tell them to look under crosscop.

                • black11hawk

                  Crosscop, I have personal experience of the kind of thing that happened to your son’s friend. I had two Bangladeshi lads in my flat at 5 in the morning telling myself and my flatmates to move out or get stabbed because it’s a Muslim area. That does not however make me think that every person with different coloured skin is somehow out to get me. You cannot conflate ideology and race. Race is inherent, ideology is taught. A person cannot help the colour of their skin but they can help what they think, say and do. Anyway how can you predict what would and would not have happened. There could have been a whole host of other incidents which took the place of those dreadful events you mention.

                • crosscop

                  I can with 100% certainty state that Lee Rigby would not have been killed by two Africans in his capital city if Africans had not been allowed to settle here. I can with 100% certainty state that Kriss Donald would not have been tortured to death by Pakistanis if Pakistanis had not been allowed to settle here.

                  “I had two Bangladeshi lads in my flat at 5 in the morning telling myself and my flatmates to move out or get stabbed because it’s a Muslim area. That does not however make me think that every person with different coloured skin is somehow out to get me.”

                  This is a matter of national survival – not whether or not someone is out to get you. Do you want the English to be outnumbered in their own country? We have already lost London, you know. Do you really want us to end up like the Copts?

                • black11hawk

                  OK those bad things happened but people do bad things all the times for all sorts of reasons. Those examples are not representative of multiethnic Britain. I work for a foreign company where most of my colleagues are foreign, my girlfriend is Korean, I have friends and relatives from all different backgrounds and we all get along like a house on fire, I love my life. There are native nutjobs in the British Isles who blow things up as well, just look at Northern Ireland. If you saw me in the street you’d think I’m 100% white British, in fact I have Maltese and Jewish heritage as well. Things are never as clear cut as you think they are.

                • crosscop

                  “Those examples are not representative of multiethnic Britain.”
                  Unfortunately they ( and many more ) are.

                • crosscop

                  If everyone had listened to crosscop ( or Enoch Powell) then thousands of people who are now dead would not have been murdered. The 7/7 bombings would not have happened, Keith Blakelock, Stephen Lawrence, Charlene Downes, Kriss Donald, Lee Rigby etc etc etc would still be alive. And thousands of British girls would not have been raped by Muslim gangs.

                  Of course, people like black11hawk think this is a price worth paying so that he can “enjoy trying different foods, listening to different music and so on” as his own people drift towards becoming a minority in their own country. I don’t happen to share this death-wish.

              • black11hawk

                P.s. I have a lot of respect for your decision to leave Islam, that cannot have been easy at all, I hope that it has not been too difficult.

              • La Fold

                No its not. Its a well known fact that John Lennon was a nasty piece of work. A herion addled, wife beating, child abandoning, violent hypocrite. Thats one of your heroes is it?

                • NoCrossNoCrescent

                  I see that you are great at using the Tu Quoque logical fallacy, as much as you don’t have a clue what it means. As for your trashing of John Lennon, no one said he was perfect, but I admire him for withstanding persecution from the Nixon administration and paying a hefty price for speaking out against a war that caused way more human tragedy than Lennon as a person ever could.

                • La Fold

                  I did know what it meant, in fact you even explained it in your previous post you nerk.
                  So its okay to have the wife beating John Lennon as a hero as long as he stood up against the Vietnam war? Surely thats a Tu Quoque fallacy in itself.

                • NoCrossNoCrescent

                  Did you read the part about him not being perfect? And because human beings other than Lennon are so flawless, from George Washington to Albert Einstein. If by hero you mean who I consider 100% impeccable then I don’t have any and neither should you.

                • La Fold

                  I certainly did read your tired excuse of him not being perfect, one trotted out by Lennon fans whenever his unsavoury, hypocritical character is pointed out to them.
                  I just cant stand someone telling me to “imagine no possessions” when he had 2 Rolls Royces and lived in the Dakota building.
                  Lets get it right, you were the one who called him one of your heroes. I, generally as a grown up and probably due to a particulary chippy jock upbringing, have no heroes in that sense.
                  However seeing as you hold a wife beating smack head toerag as a hero, please dont for a second think you can patronise me by telling me who I should or shouldnt hold as a hero.

                • NoCrossNoCrescent

                  And I read your tired accusation of hypocrisy, which again, amounts to nothing but the Tu Quoque fallacy. Essentially, I have stated why I admire Lennon, which is enduring persecution on the part of one of the most powerful governments in the world, for a war whose victims outnumbered victims of any violence committed by Lennon by many orders of magnitude. If you can’t challenge that premise based on its own merits, then I I don’t give a damn about your accusations of hypocrisy, or other character flaws against Lennon. In reality that kind of accusation can be made against any historical figure, like I pointed out. But dismissal of my open acknowledgement that he was a flawed person, like all of us, is not just Tu Quoque, but a straw man fallacy too: it is as if I ever said I admired everything about him, which I didn’t.

                • La Fold

                  Please note, I have never once stuck up for the Vietnam war or the Nixon administration, so for your accusations of straw men arguments…
                  I asked you, on the level, if you hold a violent, habitual woman beating, drug addict as a hero which you answered in the affirmative, which in itself speaks volumes.
                  And it aint a tu quoque fallacy, or Straw man argument either. His hypocryisy is blatant for all to see and no amount of semantic dithering will change that, as you well know.
                  And while we are at it, what did he do to oppose the Vietnam war? Have his photograph taken with some Radiclas who pretty much all saw him as a posuer and intellectual lightweight jumping on the band wagon? His Bed in for peace was pretty much mocked by most.
                  The persecution was the US administration trying to deport him, which is hardly the story of Anne Frank is it?
                  Both the British and American intelligence sources didnt rank him a threat cause he was too strung out on smack at the time. And to be honest his tacit support for the IRA is nothing but disgusting. But hey ho, as long as he said he was against the Vietnam war all is forgiven.

                • NoCrossNoCrescent

                  Ok a few points. It seems the books most of the personal allegations against Lennon were found in was not viewed positively by anyone close to Lennon including his first wife.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_John_Lennon

                  As for what he did to oppose the war-it doesn’t look like you understand how powerfully an artist of his stature can mobilize public opinion? And enduring pressure from the Nixon administration was by no means limited to”just” trying to deport him.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_U.S._vs._John_Lennon
                  As for Ann Frank, looks like she was lucky that she died young, and was spared smearing from people like you, which would have followed no doubt if she lived a few years more.

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