Coffee House

Israel still needs diplomatic support, even if Iran seems less aggressive

4 October 2013

5:45 PM

4 October 2013

5:45 PM

Israel’s Prime Minister revealed a crucial truth about the foreign policy of the United Kingdom and our allies in his speech to the United Nations, the gravity of which is difficult to overstate.  His speech affirmed once more that when it comes to Iran, we and all our allies are negotiating under the cover of Israel’s credibility alone.

Mr Netanyahu rightly dispensed with diplomatic charades to speak explicitly about Iran’s nuclear weapons programme.  If you believe President Rouhani’s lies from the same podium that there isn’t one, no Western or Arab government agrees with you.  This is not Iraq or even Syria.  As it happens, these country names evoke something rather different when viewed from Jerusalem than from London: Little talk, precision strikes, nuclear programmes ended before they posed a threat to Israel – or us.  There’s a piece of credibility for you.

This is not an unconditional endorsement by any means, nor is it particularly a sentiment about Mr Netanyahu per se, though he deserves unreserved admiration for his steadfastness in attempting to head off the unfathomable calamity presented by Iran’s nuclear ambitions.  Especially since he has a set of allies that bring to mind the question as to why he would need an adversary.

As a friend – scream the Europeans – let us tell you, you, the only democracy in the Middle East, you, the only nation with cultural and moral affinity to our world, you are the real danger.  Yes, and if only he made peace with the angelic Palestinians, everyone would finally possess ploughshares.

Set against the grave failures of our political and thought leaders, it is a sober – thankful, frankly – recognition that Mr Netanyahu alone now carries the mantle of history as the guarantor of our red lines, truly credible red lines, the kind of red lines that have the ability to focus the mind of a brutal and dangerous adversary such as is the Islamic Regime in Tehran.

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For let us be clear, following his speech, Mr Netanyahu’s Israel now stands as a small, unfairly burdened but potently consequential last straw between our own security and Tehran terrorising us with nuclear weapons for generations to come.

The reason the illegitimate rulers of Iran are doing whatever they can to acquire nuclear weapons, is because this will guarantee they stay in power for said generations.  It is also one reason why we must never allow this to happen.

Mr Netanyahu speaks about Tehran’s murderous terror in the region and further afield.  And he speaks about its weaponry, designed to bring this terrifying menace to our own British doorstep.  You do not build Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles to put a small explosives charge on them, as he rightly says.

A nuclear Iran is unacceptable for the interests of the United Kingdom and our allies.  But Iran’s illegitimate oppressors will only be dissuaded from their striving for nuclear weapons if they genuinely believe their rule is in danger – as they do now due to the popular discontent the sanctions their bellicose policies have earnt them have created.

Indeed, it was the credibility of Israel alone – alone, alone, alone – that got these effective sanctions installed.  Though President Obama likes to take credit, his America is nothing but a joke in the Middle East credibility stakes – a disaster for global security, as it happens, but in particular for the Iranian problem.  It was Mr Netanyahu’s credible red line – much made fun of when he literally drew it from the same UN podium a year ago – that focused President Obama’s and every other mind.

And now that the sanctions have worked – to the extent that they have forced a more moderate face onto a regime which happily murders the women and children of Iran it oppresses – now it once again falls to Mr Netanyahu to return to the UN and bring his credibility to bear to expose the Rouhani sham – for that is what he did yesterday.

Mr Netanyahu’s justly belligerent speech presents the best opportunity to avert the need for military action to persuade the Iranian regime to change course.

Not an iota of sanctions relief if his conditions are not met.  They are all our conditions. Show yourselves, those of you who are serious about stopping Iran.  The rest, you’ll answer to history.

Bob Blackman is the Conservative Member of Parliament for Harrow East. Davis Lewin is the Political Director of The Henry Jackson Society.


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Show comments
  • http://www.twitter.com/changeirannow Change Iran Now

    As long as Iran continues to pursue a nuclear weapons capability, build
    longer-range ballistic missiles, sponsor terrorism around the world and abuse
    human rights, the US should impose pressure on Iran to give diplomacy a chance
    to succeed. Regarding human rights, Rouhani can start by immediately releasing
    the 7 hostages taken in the Ashraf massacre. On September 1, Iraqi forces
    killed 52 residents of Camp Ashraf, and took seven hostages. In this massacre,
    ordered by the religious fascism ruling Iran, the attackers’ shot unarmed
    people while their hands were tied behind their backs (video http://bit.ly/GzSmHj ). This is a great crime against humanity that should not go unheeded in silence and
    inaction. All residents of Ashraf and Liberty, including the 52 that have been
    cold-bloodily murdered, are protected persons by the Fourth Geneva Convention
    and asylum-seekers with U.S. and UN responsible for their safety. , Iran needs
    to be held accountable and sanctions shouldn’t be lifted simply based on
    promises, but on concrete actions.

  • avi15

    I can see from the other posters that the anti-semites are out in force. Unlucky for them but you’re no longer allowed to come out and say in public that you just hate Jews.

  • Toby Esterházy

    What is the difference between a Mohammedan of whatever sect or school, an observant Orthodox Israelite and an atheist Jewish Marxist? Admittedly not very much. All groups are dangerous lunatics and fanatics, bent one way or another on World control and World domination, and neither group is to be trusted.

    • avi15

      If you can’t see the differences yourself, I feel sorry for you.

      • Toby Esterházy

        That both groups should both be removed from Christendom?

  • Rocksy

    Scotland has a great saying:
    ‘It takes a lang spoon tae sup wi’ the De’il’.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    What brought all this on? Oh of course, the 40th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War.

  • Bonkim

    Interesting report but most – dumbo comments. Is this the level of intellect displayed by those posting on this site?

  • Augustus

    Prime Minister Netanyahu called President Rouhani of Iran “a wolf in sheep’s clothing”, recalling that when Rouhani was Iran’s chief national security adviser and head nuclear negotiator he lied and stalled and subsequently even boasted about his success in creating a calm environment, and that he occupied this position even while Iran was orchestrating the terrorist bombings of the Jewish Community Centre in Buenos Aires. So this foxy president comes from the security sector of the Regime, and was until quite recently even Khamenei’s emissary in the Iranian Security Council. His sincerity and glib assurances of Iran’s peaceful intentions is just what one would expect from any crafty diplomat aiming to get sanctions lifted by gullible world leaders. Iran is a fundamentalist Islamic regime which suppresses the Iranian people with tyranny, lack of freedoms, and harsh Sharia laws. It’s also a dangerous extreme nation that seeks WMDs and the capability to launch them, not just at Israel, but around the globe. At least Netanyahu’s U.N. speech was guaranteed to wipe that grimace off Rouhani’s face. And whatever diplomatic talks hope to achieve, Persian society will still be disappointed, and still continue to suffer the hard hand of their Islamist rulers.

  • Iain Hill

    Is this paid propaganda for Israel? It should say so.

    • Augustus

      שאלוהים יברך ישראל

  • Observer74

    Why does Bob Blackman appear at the top of this piece, but Davis Lewin of the Henry Jackson Society is also credited at the bottom of the piece. Bob made a perfectly sensible contribution to the Syrian debate in the HoC, so it seems more likely that this is a propaganda piece by a neocon pro-israeli pressure group. The Speccie should have made this clear.. In any event, according to Debka, Israel has now formed an alliance with that beacon of Middle East democracy Saudi Arabia to lobby in the US against Iranian/US detente. I don’t think the UK should join in that!

    • telemachus

      I have to say this is one of the most blatant pieces of propaganda I have read in Speccie
      “Israel alone-alone, alone, alone- ”
      I would like to see balance back from Shiraz Maher

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …you’d like to see the Gulag back.

        • telemachus

          But only for such as you

          • the viceroy’s gin

            …yes, those who disagree with you would be sent to the Gulag.

            It’s comforting for the rest of us that you show yourself so willingly, and confirm our suspicions.

          • Colonel Mustard

            With those six words you undermine and invalidate any pretence you might have had of being “reasonable” and “caring”. No wonder you admire Stalin you repulsive soviet weasel. You are disgusting and since you like labels your fatuous moral boasting cannot escape the stench of Blokhin.

  • victor67

    “Iran terrorizing Britain with Nuclear weapons”
    Really? I think only the Zionist federation believes that
    Rouhani played a blinder isolating Israel from the US and portraying Netanyahu as a rejectionist and warmonger.
    Iran is the only ME power that threatens Israeli military domination of the ME that’s why Netanyahu and the Israel lobby do not want a deal. They want regime change. This is not a recipe for peace it is about dragging the US into a disastrous conflict.

    • Bonkim

      which it will be reluctant to embark on despite the pro-Israeli lobby which is weakening..

    • Colonel Mustard

      Remind me when the Israelis imprisoned thousands of their own people and then shot them at close range with AK47’s in televised mass executions.

      “The number who lost their lives will probably never be known with certainty. Amnesty International documented 2,946 executions in the 12 months following Bani-Sadr’s impeachment. A list compiled the following year by the Mojahedin-e Khalq cited 7,746 persons who had lost their lives through executions, in street battles, or under torture in the short period from June 1981 to September 1983. According to historian Ervand Abrahamian, revolutionary courts executed more than 8000 opponents between June 1981 and June 1985. These were mainly members of the Mojahedin-e Khalq, but also included Fedayins and Kurds as well as Tudeh, National Front, and Shariatmadari supporters. … Thus the toll taken among those who had participated in the revolution was far greater than that of royalists.”

      And not a murmur from all the usual leftist slime who rather like violent revolution, the persecution of dissent and mass executions of those who do not conform to their orthodoxy of failure. Our resident soviet troll thinks such mass executions are necessary, even desirable, to achieve socialist utopia. And of course the current regime is the same regime that connived at this mass murder, only the goods put in the shop window and the proprietor’s name over the door have changed.

      Anyone who is taken in by Iran or actually supports them in the West is a sick puppy.

  • allymax bruce

    The USA, President Obama, can move this problem, ‘shutdown’ by two ways; 1), order the Treasury to call-in its credits, or, order the street of the ‘house’. I prefer both; this is exactly the point of deliberations President Kennedy was murdered by these same scumbags. It wasn’t the Russians. It wasn’t the Communists. It wasn’t the Mafia. It was AIPAC, that murdered President Kennedy.
    allymax.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      …well good then, you’ve finally cleared that up.

    • HookesLaw

      Well the loony toons are out in force tonight.

      Kennedy said, “Israel will endure and flourish. It is the child of hope and the home of the brave. It can neither be broken by adversity nor demoralized by
      success. It carries the shield of democracy and it honours the sword of
      freedom”
      Kennedy removed Eisenhower’s arms embargo and for instance sold advanced anti aircraft missiles to Israel in 1963.
      He started the concept of a special relationship with Israel.
      He was complicit in bogus examination of Israel’s nuclear programme.

      All sound reasons why Jewish loonies would want to see him dead.

      Once again tonight we witness the true bonkers nature of the hysterics who pester us on here.

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …even that guy isn’t as big a pest as you are, laddie.

        • allymax bruce

          Viceroy, I never mentioned Is’ra-e; I was referring specifically to Zionist-interests within the AIPAC! Funny how the scumbags like HookesLaw ‘find the need’ to conflate both! (Etymology),Kennedy wanted to bring the USA Federal Reserve, back into public ownership, back to its original Bank of America status, by re-Nationalising it. And, because he knew it was controlled by Zionists, he also knew he needed to ‘appease’ their promulgated purpose of secured-safety tenure of their homeland Is’ra-el, so he pandered to that purpose, thinking they would agree the return of the National Bank back to the USA people. But Zionists don’t give up money easily, they put in place a ‘set-up’, framed their patsy, and did the evil deed. They use ‘patsys’ for all their evil deeds; after-all, ‘a sacrifice’ must be made! They ‘set-up’ their evil deed, their, target, & their patsy, then when it’s all in-place, (even the attorney generals, the jury, & the slander being forced into the public domain through MSM), they do their evil deed, and the patsty takes the blame. Law enforcement in USA, is the most crooked in the world; it’s all Freemason common purpose drones in all the important positions. The Zionist ethos is preached all over the US, in most of the churches, in all the public bureaucratic institutions, and disseminated into the social-discourse; people live in fear of losing their jobs to their Zionist masters. In 90 short years, the Zionists have made the indigenous population of USA their white sheep; goyum they’re called. To be controlled, and even sacrificed; hence the never-ending wars across the globe, made, planned, and demanded by the Zionists. The American Dream, is now the Zionist Nightmare. You don’t need to believe me, but hey, I’m no Marxist, nor Zionist goyum apologist!

          • the viceroy’s gin

            Without addressing all of your rant, let’s point out that Kennedy was an unstable and temperamentally unsuited president, absent any solid mandate from the electorate, and incapable for those reasons of executing or even identifying a need for the reordering of monetary policy and the Fed.

            • Tom Tom

              He did have casting votes in Cook County, IL AFTER the polls were closed and the ballot boxes had been found ! Funny how 300,000 votes made such a difference……..which other president has recently depended on Illinois ?

  • chan chan

    Rouhani is going to take the entire western dhimmi idiot political establishment to the cleaners to the power of ten. We’ve had the bad cop, and now Rouhani the good cop. Iran will get their nuclear weapons, no sweat. It’s a cinch.

    Rouhani is on video boasting about how he conned and ripped off the western nuclear negotiators over the years, and what total fuc*ing mugs they are. Now he’s up against Obama and Baroness Ashton, who make Chamberlain look like Vlad the Impaler. How do you think that will turn out?

    • Daniel Maris

      Yep, I’m sick of the whole charade. Tighten the sanctions screw now. And if that doesn’t stop them, close down every airport and seaport in the country.

      Remember these guys’ stated aim is to destroy two UN Member States – in particular wiping one from the map.

      • Tom Tom

        NATO has destroyed the Libyan State and worked to destroy the Syrian
        State – it bombed a European capital to destroy the Serbian
        State……the US encouraged Saddam Hussein to invade Iran and provided
        him with satellite imagery to concentrate chemical weapon attacks and
        let him import Italian equipment to manufacture the gas with technical
        staff trained at University of East Anglia.

        Destroying EU member
        states is part and parcel of Western political ideology just as it
        props up fictitious states like Qatar and Saudi Arabia and Jordan

        • HookesLaw

          Fruit loop in action.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          …there were German companies involved in building Iraq’s chemical weapons manufacturing capacity, too. Similar has been going on in Iran, off and on, if I recall.

          And it looks like Turkey may have figured all this out, and is making big overtures to the Chinese, the clever bastages.

  • London Calling

    Mr Netanyahu has agreed to meet Iranian President Hassan Rouhani in peace talks……….a good step forward for the region for which we should all support……………….

    • Daniel Maris

      I don’t know if you are being naive or ironic. If so, Netanyahu has offered that because he knows Rohani won’t accept.

  • Tom Tom

    Israel is a democracy internally but acts like an irredentist externally with no internationally recognised borders. Germany in 1939 only had its western border recognised by Locarno but its eastern border had never been agreed. Britain went to war when Germany went to protect German nationals in Danzig and invaded Poland – which was not a democracy; yet Israel can bomb Lebanon at will and have German Doplhin submarines given free of charge to fire rockets at neighbouring states. Israel has not ratified the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty yet has run a secret nuclear bomb program for decades plus biological and chemical weapons programs.

    How can any other state feel safe with such weapons in the hands of men like Netanyahu who have no respect for international borders and have already induced dimwits in Britain and the USA to wage war against Iraq and sponsor mercenaries in Syria who are now threatening to destabilise Iraq even more ?

    Israel is not an imperial power but it thinks it should build an empire using Western military power as its proxy

    • Bonkim

      and Netanyahu blackmails the west into following his line. That was the purpose of his UN speech.

    • Daniel Maris

      There are boundary disputes all over the world: Gibraltar, Falklands, Belize, Mexico/USA, China/Japan, N/S Korea, Kashmir, Georgia/Russia, Morocco/Spanish Sahara, Bolivia/Chile, NIgeria/Cameroon, Russia/China, China/India etc etc For some reason – only Israel gets talked about in the way you do.

      • Bonkim

        to be fair Israel was established on land confiscated from its owners who were then shunted into Refugee Camps. It was land robbery not unlike that in the bad lands of Texas in the 19th century. The Great powers were involved and still are protecting Israel despite Israel’s continuing expansion into occupied lands. That of course gave rise to freedom struggle on the part of the Palestinians and terrorist attacks on Israel, and also Israel’s Western supporters – that is why Israel/Palestine is talked more about than say the China/India border disputes or the division of Kashmir or any number other border disputes across the world where Great power politics do not come to play. As with all things man-made, such things have a way of unravelling and I am sure Israel is scared the present situation is weakening US resolve, and Israel’s position in a volatile region.

        • Daniel Maris

          To be fair, that’s not the case. It was formed on mostly Jewish land, bought legally by Jews, under the Ottoman Empire and then the League of Nations Mandate. The division of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state was approved of by the UN and the UN admitted Israel as a member state.

          To be consistent, I presume you are going to ask for all people of Turkish origin to be moved back to Turkey from Palestine; for Morocco to relinquish Western Sahara; for Kuwait to be given back to Iraq; for Lebanon to be returned to Syria; and for Europeans whose were dispossessed of their homes in Algeria to be given them back.

          I think you’ll find among Pakistanis and Indians (1.3billion people) Kashmir is talked about just as much as Israel. And judging from my viewing of NHK, the islands disputes in the seas off China are of great interest to the getting on for 2 billion people surrounding them.

          • Bonkim

            No Daniel – I am not going to petition the UN for Israelis to disburse to various parts of the world their forefathers came from. Not that the Israelis will be frightened by that.

            Even in English Law land does not belong to anyone but the one that holds it and works it. Following your logic I think we all need to emigrate to Africa and the present day Africans will be waiting on the beaches and on the Savannah with their broomsticks and spears to get rid of us. Bad idea.

            I am not quite sure how the land my house is on came to be and I bet if I dig deep will find some plots or murders in it being occupied by someone some time that could subsequently pass on the title. I hope their ghosts don’t come to haunt me.

            • Daniel Maris

              Well…that’s impressive…you expended several hundred words but made no sense.

              Let me help you towards clarity:

              “Are you are happy for Israelis to continue to be Israelis living in their State of Israel as long as they wish? “.

              • Bonkim

                My being happy means little to the Israelis – I have no view – they are there and in control – as with all people in the different territorial boundaries through history. Nothing permanent and they will have to fight it out with others who claim the same territory. So do all others on the world map.

              • Tom Tom

                That begs the question what defines the “State of Israel” – is it with the Med as one border, Beirut as another and Baghdad as yet another ? Where does Israel have an internationally agreed border ?

            • Tom Tom

              All land belongs to the Crown and through the Crown land title is established on pieces of parchment or deeds and indentures based on hazy boundary rules. The whole apex of the english system is the Crown as the Kelsennorm.

              • Bonkim

                Yes Tom Tom – complex topic – however going back to roots before it was granted to others – ‘ establishment of the land law in England happened by invasion, conquest, enclosure and force,’ this is the perennial story in all present day national borders. Those who hold it and can defend it own it.

          • Tom Tom

            but Kashmir is a problem caused by the British under Mountbatten…….as for Israel it has a right to exist just as Kurdistan has a right to exist….but i doubt Barzani would be allowed biological or chemical weapons even though his people have suffered under chemical attack

      • Tom Tom

        Gibraltar has no boundary dispute – Falkands neither, They are OWNERSHIP disputes. You forgot to mention Poland and Ukraine or Serbia and Kosovo or Kurdistan and Turkey or Poland and Belarus. If only Poland could build chemical and nuclear weapons outside the treaty controls – it could ensure Lwow ceased being Lviv and have Grodno returned to Poland – then it could return the Eastern Border of Germany to where it was in 1912

    • HookesLaw

      ‘Britain went to war when Germany went to protect German nationals in Danzig;’ Well we have our very own Goebbels .

      • the viceroy’s gin

        …no, I believe that would be your mate Coulson, wouldn’t it?

        • Tom Tom

          Hookes Law is a pre-programmed troll operating with PROMs and unable to accept any view that is not hard-wired. He lacks and insight into primary data sources and forgets that even Goebbels knew much more about what was really going on than Hookes Law does now. There is a propaganda script he has swallowed wholesale to excuse a British foreign policy that brought the Russian Empire into the heart of Berlin for the first time in history and achieved exactly what the Poles had prevented in 1920.

          British policy turned over Central Europe plus Austria to the USSR and gave Stalin more than the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact ever promised and locked Britain into a Super-Debt Cycle rendering it a province of the American empire. A truly disastrous situation when even now Lech Walesa thinks Germany and Poland should unite as an economic bloc

      • Tom Tom

        Why ? Have you read the League of Nations reports on Danzig, a majority GERMAN city which the Poles tried to incorporate into Poland. Have you read the offer to Colonel Beck of the Sanacja junta in power in Warsaw. A Polish author has a new bok

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_Ribbentrop_-_Beck_%28novel%29

        showing how Beck used the Chamberlain guarantee to prop up the Polish refusal to negotiate on the Corridor and the new autobahn Germany wanted to build. It shows the British really had no policy and essentially destroyed themselves to preserve Stalin

  • kyalami

    Well this has brought out the bigots on both sides of the argument.

    Israel exists in a precarious region and Jews have suffered immense oppression over the centuries, most grievously under the Nazis. As they have said, their enemies can lose often: they only have to lose once.

    However, upon occasion the Israeli government acts in a way that does no credit to itself or its history.

    Iran remains a volatile force in the region. Sometimes we judge it less harshly than Israel because it’s not what we in the West consider a democracy.

    It would be good if both sides could ease off. In the real world they won’t and the Middle East will remain a dangerous place, not just for itself but for Europe, Asia and North America.

    • Tom Tom

      There are 80 million Iranians…it is a very long time since any Western nation involved itself in conflict with such a population. South Vietnam had 20 million and North Vietnam 23 million and the USA had great difficulty in facing up to defeat……..and China stands behind Iran which is a major energy supplier….the USA is encircling China with bases in Saipan and Central Asia trying to disrupt the new silk road. Iran is a major component of the Eastern economic zone even if the West has forgotten. The Chinese drove tanks over students and Clinton said trade would be the salving balm but NOT we see in the case of Iran.

      • Bonkim

        Iran is also a vast inhospitable territory and both the Russians and the British could not get a foothold there as in Afghanistan. Remember the aborted US rescue mission that flopped in the iranian desert.

      • Colonel Mustard

        “South Vietnam had 20 million and North Vietnam 23 million and the USA had great difficulty in facing up to defeat”

        A ridiculous statement that shows complete ignorance of war in general and that war in particular.

        • Tom Tom

          Explain o wise one……..the US spends more on war than the GDP of the country it fights yet loses…it has not inflicted defeat on any adversary since 1945

    • Bonkim

      Israel was a creation – an atonement of Europe’s persecution of the Jews over two millennia – and Palestine was part of a broken Empire in the gift of Britain/the Allies that headed the newly created UN and Jewish terrorists made it too hot for anyone to control.

      • Daniel Maris

        So the Arabs didn’t persecute the Jews? How come there isn’t a single Jew allowed to live in Arabia – as commanded by Mohammed?

        • Bonkim

          Hello Daniel – Saudi Arabia is a special case and yes today the Kingdom does not allow Jews to stay or work, even US Jewish military personnel have restrictions.

          That does not mean Jews did not live in peace and harmony in Muslim lands – they still do and discrimination against them was any at a lower level than was the case in most Christian lands, until possibly the foundation of Israel and subsequent history of Jewish/Arab hostilities. Many of course emigrated to Israel in subsequent years.

          There is history of Jews living in present day Saudi Arabia too. As there is considerable information on Jewish life in Arab lands on the internet, I shall ask you to look up the subject there.

          To recap we were comparing the Jewish situation historically, a persecuted people for over two millennia but in the context of today’s Israel, a people that displaced the historic/legitimate inhabitants of present day Israel, and acting more as an occupying power with help and support of world powers.

          Just imagine an outside power forcibly settling large numbers of foreigners in say Cumbria or Yorkshire and driving those living there to refugee Camps in Belgium.

          Whilst admiring the Jewish people for their great contribution to science, technology, the arts and music, some of the World – Greats, coming from a group of geographically dispersed and persecuted people, relatively small in numbers, their ethical behaviour in power towards the displaced Palestinians is contrary to what would be expected from their long history of suffering.

          Going to Jews in Islamic lands – from pre-Biblical days and even after the advent of Islam, not persecuted to the same degree as in Christendom as there are strictures in the Quoran tolerating Christians and jews – people of the Book. I am not a historian or theologian but common sense observations, and historic references and literature shows Jews and Christians went along fine as long as the supremacy of Islam was not contested and the laws of the land obeyed. Under certain periods non-Muslims paid an infidel tax but forced conversion of Jews and Christianity was not widespread. People took such things as the norms – present day politically correct thinking and behaviour did not exist until recent decades in Britain and they do not exist in many parts of the world today.

          • Colonel Mustard

            Codswallop. Read some proper history of Israel and the MIddle East.

            Leaving aside their treatment as second class subjects – dhimmis, anti-Jewish pogroms occurred in Aleppo (1850, 1875), Damascus (1840, 1848, 1890), Beirut (1862, 1874), Dayr al-Qamar (1847), Jerusalem (1847), Cairo (1844, 1890, 1901–02), Mansura (1877), Alexandria (1870, 1882, 1901–07), Port Said (1903, 1908), Damanhur (1871, 1873, 1877, 1891), Istanbul (1870, 1874), Buyukdere (1864), Kuzguncuk (1866), Eyub (1868), Edirne (1872), Izmir (1872, 1874). There was a massacre of Jews in Baghdad in 1828. There was another massacre in Barfurush in 1867. In 1839, in the eastern Persian city of Meshed, a mob burst into the Jewish Quarter, burned the synagogue, and destroyed the Torah scrolls. This is known as the Allahdad incident. It was only by forcible conversion that a massacre was averted. In 1941, following Rashid Ali’s pro-Axis coup, riots known as the Farhud broke out in Baghdad in which approximately 180 Jews were killed and about 240 were wounded, 586 Jewish-owned businesses were looted and 99 Jewish houses were destroyed.

            “Politically correct thinking” is one of the greatest oppressors of humanity and distorters of reason the world has ever known. It is a product of the left. And you are a fine example of it.

            • Bonkim

              Nobody says Jews had an easy time – and you are talking about a vast area with many inter-communal conflicts and political goings on. At the same time count the numbers of non-Christians killed in these or related incidents.

              The main point is that they did not fare any worse that in continental Europe or Russia. Check also the position of minorities in North and South America during the 1800s and the scale of the genocide taking place there and also the factional fighting and wanton killings in the range wars or land-grabs.

              Simply looking at Jews killed in Muslim lands over centuries does not reflect the general climate of sectarian and ethnic conflicts of the times that affected many millions of people – not just Jews.

              Get serious – we are used to a relatively calm period in history sterilised from the real world human conflicts and competition for survival – where people felt safe and secure from persecution and exploitation – the norm throughout history and still continuing in many parts of the world today.

              You will have to get your answers from Jewish sources.

              Look up http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Jews_in_Arab_lands_(gen).html

              and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

              Jews in India faced no persecution from Hindus from the time they migrated to India, but they were subjugated by Christian missionaries during the Goa Inquisition from the year 1552. Portuguese invaders in the South India committed massive atrocities on South Indian Jewry in the 17th Century.[6]

              • the viceroy’s gin

                Too many words, lad. That often means that you yourself know that you’re not providing anything truthful.

                The islamofascists have long slaughtered the Jews and Christians in the Middle East. They’re doing it today. They chop heads and set up einsatzgruppen, as we see on YouTube.

                It’s just like the good old days last century. The Grand Mufti would be pleased. He and Shicklegruber toasted for this outcome.

                • Bonkim

                  Agree long narrative go no where.

                  The world is not a perfect fit and we all have to be satisfied with the little bit we come across – or believe in.

              • Colonel Mustard

                You precisely inferred in your previous post that Jews had had an easy time. Here’s a reminder for you:-

                “Going to Jews in Islamic lands – from pre-Biblical days and even after the advent of Islam, not persecuted to the same degree as in Christendom . . .

                . . . historic references and literature shows Jews and Christians went along fine as long as the supremacy of Islam was not contested and the laws of the land obeyed. Under certain periods non-Muslims paid an infidel tax but forced conversion of Jews and Christianity was not widespread.”

                You made those trite assertions about their situation in the middle east and I disproved them. Have the good grace to admit you were wrong rather than attempting to shift the moral goalposts with that waffling twaddle.

                • Bonkim

                  Nobody is right or wrong in this complex maze Colonel – and differed sets of of Jews, Christians or others will recount their experiences in different ways at different locations and different times. That is life so don’t get disappointed – and no apologies. Christians too carried out genocide and forced conversions, and difficult to distinguish between the pot and the kettle – they are both black from the soot of time.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  You were wrong. Simply wrong. But like most apologists for Jewish persecution you merely dodge sideways when confronted.

                • Bonkim

                  Confronted by a Colonel Mustard raising bogies – that must be a laugh. Sleep well. Grow up and learn to live with your limitations.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  And so we get to the abuse as we always do. And still no admission of being wrong as there never is.

                • Bonkim

                  If you had any intellect, will know you cannot have it all your way – So stop trolling – have seen bullies like you bite the dust. Vamose!

                • Colonel Mustard

                  I think you must be as confused about intellect and bullies as you are about the persecution of the Jews. Whatever I am I am not an apologist for that.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Look up YouTube if you want to see how different sets of people recount their experiences when your islamofascist buddies chopped their heads off, lad.

                  Oh wait, that’s right, their heads are chopped off and they can’t recount anything.

                • Bonkim

                  Fascists – islamic or the Christian variety – just need to be droned down. Pity Obama missed a trick – he would have even got Congress to allow the budget to go through – shoot first and ask questions later – plenty of Assad agents I see on this site getting paid I assume by Gordons bottles delivered by the back door..

                  PS I don’t watch utube.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  No need to fantasize any moral equivalency, lad. It’s your islamofascist buddies who do all the slaughtering and headchopping, not Christians.

                  And you probably should watch YouTube, lad. It’d show you your islamofascist buddies in action, as they do their headchopping.

                  You best not get too close to your islamofascist buddies, lad. They really are getting droned daily, and you could be next.

                • Bonkim

                  Flying over the Somali coast – read tomorrow’s papers.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …what are you babbling about now?

            • Daniel Maris

              All well made points, apart from the last.

              I don’t think it’s entirely a product of left thinking, though that predominates now. In the past we had politically correct thinking of the right that made out all our imperial subjects. . Currently part of senitmental PC thinking is having to pretend that all our troops behave honourably all around the world and never visit distress or mayhem on other people’s lives.

              • Colonel Mustard

                I disagree with that. The Empire was not without its faults but much of it was characterised by a flexibility of thinking, empathy towards localised protocols and laissez-faire if not liberal policies. For all the revisionist diatribes against it most British Imperial enterprises overseas (if not all) were characterised by significant inward movements of native peoples away from the vagaries of indigenous rulers and their “justice” towards the stability and security of British rule. I point you to the British experience in Borneo, Malaya and Burma. Pax Britannica was not just an aspirational term. It is the reason places like Singapore and Hong Kong became such vibrant powerhouses of commercial success. And in sharp contrast to the imperial adventures of the French, Spanish and Dutch.

                I draw your attention to Prof. Ure’s excellent ‘Governors, Politics and the Colonial Office – Public Policy in Hong Kong 1918-1958’ for an objective and realist appraisal of the workings and benefits of Empire. If Britain had enjoyed a similarly enlightened and practical application of government I doubt we would be experiencing the current mess. But as always the home government believed it had nothing to learn from colonial upstarts and rustics. It is no surprise that there is now a significant groundswell of dissatisfied public opinion in Hong Kong, largely unreported in the West and censored in China, that expresses the wish that the British had never left.

                It is late 20th Century leftist revisionism and ethnic romanticism that has cast the British Empire as oppressively ruled entirely by blimps and that is purely to serve their modern political aims of instilling self-hatred and guilt here in Britain.

                • Daniel Maris

                  Strangely, though you consider Empire a wonderful thing, there wasn’t even ONE significant bit of the Empire that voted to stick with it.

          • Daniel Maris

            You’re a great satirist Bonkim – only problem is: you don’t know it.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              …neither do you.

              • Daniel Maris

                No original thoughts then?

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …just that it’s amusing to watch an unwitting satirist calling out unwitting satire.

                • Daniel Maris

                  That’s not originality…that’s a tortoise trying to get on a hare and hump it.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …I’m sure that’s what the voices in your head are telling you, and it would also explain a lot of your posts.

            • Bonkim

              I am amazed at the similarity in all worldly themes and all human thought.

        • Tom Tom

          If you read the Foreign Office despatches from Poland after 1919 you can see how the book

          http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005UNI3ZG/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title

          coupled with League of Nations complaints to Poland and Czechoslovakia over persecution of Germans in these countries made Chamberlain and others sympathetic to Germany’s need to re-draw borders in Central Europe

          • the viceroy’s gin

            That may be true, but the Nazis and Sovs were blood enemies, and that enmity was what was ultimately going to drive them both. For them, Poland was just what another book called it… Bloodlands.

            And they both wanted liebensraum, not just one of them.

            It’s easy to say today, but Chamberlain needed to find a way to keep out of their blood feud, and he didn’t.

            • salieri

              Freudian slip? Presumably liebensraum is something found on the upper floors of a brothel.

              • the viceroy’s gin

                How’s that again?

                • salieri

                  Please forgive the flippancy. Lebensraum = living space. Liebensraum = room for loving.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  No worries. I can’t spell in any language, so you’ll have to forgive me. Although I must admit the German seems a quite unforgiving beast on that front.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …but it does make one mindful that the Nazis and Sovs could have done us all a favor and spent more time liebensrauming and less time lebensrauming.

                • Tom Tom

                  They did, they ran a joint SS-NKVD Centre in Zakopane perfecting mass-extermination techniques and were well aware of CO experiments in killing

        • Chris Morriss

          There isn’t a single practising Christian in Saudi either. Christian worship is forbidden, as is Jewish worship.

  • Icansee4miles

    Rouhani is a sock puppet on the hand of the Grand Ayatollah. The world’s fawning over a consummate actor like Iran’s President would be laughable-except for what is at stake; the creation of new Islamic Persian Empire.

    See if this feels familiar, as spoken by the Grand Ayatollah in Amazon Kindle’s new thriller The Bahrain Protocol, “Continue to ask for negotiations; invite the U.S. and European nations to the talks; sow dissention and split them from each other.” “The bomb is almost ready; lengthy negotiations will give us time to complete and test it.”

    The clock is ticking.

    • telemachus

      And the bomb will restore the balance of power in the Middle East
      And free the Palestinians

      • Icansee4miles

        From the lips of Rouhani!! Taqqiya not working for you anymore? Here is your lesson Israel; do what has to be done!!

        • telemachus

          Israel could decommission its own bomb
          Israel could make peace with Palestine

    • HookesLaw

      The citizens of Iran elect members of the ‘Assembly of Experts’, who
      in turn select the ‘Supreme Leader’, and can sack him if necessary. He’s
      essentially in charge of national security and keeping things appropriately Islamic.
      The President is elected in a national election and handles the other governmental functions such as the economy, education, etc.

      Its democracy – its a democracy rooted in the middle ages and by a backward religion – but its a democracy and there is no reason why it cannot evolve, just like ours did.
      Reformists are persecuted but they will continue and we should give them what help we can. There are regular examples of student protests. There is no reason why Iran should stay as it is unless we give up on it and retire into our own bigotry.

      • Icansee4miles

        What a crock! The last demonstrations in Teheran were handled with police snipers shooting down people; your idea of a democracy is Totalitarian Theocracy! As for your first sentence; I would love to see someone stand up to Khamenei-and live!

      • the viceroy’s gin

        Yes, it would be expected that you’d be an apologist for the mullahs. They’re authoritarian socialists, just like you. On the nudge/shove/shoot progression, the mullahs have just gone to the end, and you types haven’t quite got there yet. Give you time though.

  • fathomwest

    I notice the Labour Party anti-Semitism stalinistas are about.

    • Tom Tom

      Semites are Arabs too

      • telemackus

        Sophistry. All us national socialists know what is meant.

    • Colonel Mustard

      The internet is awash with Labour rebuttal unit trolls tonight.

  • tolpuddle1

    “Israel needs our diplomatic support” – and here were the rest of us thinking it wanted our military support, in Syria and when it bombs Iran, for instance.

    Bob Blackman’s piece reads much less like a political article than the fervent religious ecstasy of a martyr at the stake. Oh, but his Harrow East constituency has a large Jewish population. Perhaps Bob is praying for re-election in 2015.

    • Austin Barry

      Harrow East also has a 7.48% Muslim population.

      • tolpuddle1

        Many (most?) of whom will vote Labour in any case.

      • Daniel Maris

        He might start changing his views soon.

  • Austin Barry

    There are 2.4 million muslims in the UK and about 250,000 Jews.

    Looking at these numbers our craven politicians will have no hesitation in letting Israel be subsumed or, more likely, consumed by the Ummah.

    Still, the Any Questions audience and the BBC will be pleased.

    • telemachus

      Both you and Blackman have the wrong end of the stick
      *
      There needs to be a balance of power
      Since 1967 Israel has held hegemony over the conquered lands and beyond. It has defended this hegemony vigorously and now has nuclear weapons to threaten its extended sphere
      It is absolutely reasonable to defend itself with like weapons
      *
      Remember Mutually Assured Destruction

      • Tony_E

        The problem for anyone who supports that view is that the Iranian government is not a freely elected one with a democratic mandate. It is a choice between the sock puppets the Ayatollah allows to run for office.

        If Iran develops Nuclear weapons to their full potential, the Iranian regime will become like that of the North Koreans – untouchable, and with the ultimate power to supress the will of their own people without interference and in perpetuity. The stronger the regime becomes, the less likely that the people can rise up and depose it.

        • telemachus

          Do not follow..
          Did theY not just change the President by election by the people

          • starfish

            Doh! The president is not in charge – the theocracy is!!!!!!! They permit a little bread and circuses but they run tbings with an iron hand. And they have a long term view of how they will turn the whole region into a militant islamic empire. Going pretty well too

            • telemachus

              I see
              So the actual issue is the age old one of Islamophobia

              • Colonel Mustard

                You don’t see anything with those red blinkers on and your head up Balls’ backside most of the time. We all know that you, like a lot of socialists, secretly support Islamic extremism and hate your own country.

                • telemachus

                  Your choice of phraseology has to be deliberate
                  But then what would we expect from the Dacre worshipping cadre
                  *
                  The extremes of Islam are almost as bad as the extremes of the American Christian Right
                  Except that the ACR has stoked and fueled the oppression by Israel of the peace loving Palestinians for generations
                  And that in truth is the census of most Middle East tension
                  *
                  Were the ACR to let go then there would be a solution to that conflict and no need for the Persians to pursue Nuclear arms

                • Colonel Mustard

                  “The extremes of Islam are almost as bad as the extremes of the American Christian Right”

                  Really? “Almost as bad”? Perhaps you could list the global terror attacks by the “American Christian Right” that have left thousands of innocent people murdered and maimed?

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamic_terrorist_attacks

                  vs

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

                  And the latter is really quite weak and obviously the construct of people like you seeking some twisted parity.

                  A better demonstration of how you are an apologist and justifier of Islamic terror could not be found. Quite disgusting and unacceptable – even for you.

                • telemachus

                  You know nothing
                  And spout worse
                  The American Right created Al Qaeda-a deliberate response to American hegemony, a policy of the American right on the Arabian peninsula
                  As implied above the curious conflation of Israeli survival and Armageddon triggered and perpetuates the whole Middle East conflagration
                  *
                  Some on this blog seem to equate unmasking of the agenda of the American Christian Right with anti-semi tim
                  Far from it
                  The desire of the reasonable is for sovereign Israel to live in peace
                  The only way to achieve this is for Israel to make peace with Palestine
                  And the only way for this to occur is for the ACR to remove their support for illegal settlements
                  Only the dim and the evil fail to see this

                • telemackus

                  Quite mad.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  What a load of bilious tripe. Anybody reading your huge collection of comments here (5,300+) should be able to spot the many different styles of writing that indicate either a collection of different individuals writing under one pseudonym or one individual with some serious personality disorders. If the former the sixth form work experience students must be on duty today.

                  * (Tee-hee)

                  Once again you evade the challenging questions and just post more propaganda.

                • telemachus

                  Telemachus remains the same as when AWK, Verity and Nicholas created him
                  He still uses his pre CHARTER moniker for emphasis when some posters get a little too familiar

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Deranged.

              • telemackus

                Better Islamophobia that this hatred of the Jews espoused by our beloved national socialists.

              • cyllan

                your islamic friends in Egypt have destroyed hundreds of coptic churches, and now they do rape killing and ransom of christians for the brotherhood.

                not a peep from you about it……..hypocrite

      • telemackus

        Sad that we national socialists continue with our anti-Jewish propaganda. Did we not learn the lessons of the past?

      • Chris Morriss

        If only Israel and Saudi Arabia could mutually destroy each other, then then it would be a joyous day for civilisation in the world!

        • telemachus

          This is the kind of smug immoral Western view that devalues us in the eyes of the new emerging superpowers

          • Chris Morriss

            Do you get these snippets from some book of content-free made-up quotes?

      • Dogsnob

        “…the conquered lands…”
        Now there’s a cute title. Been quite a few of those in the Middle East but we don’t get to hear too much about most of the conquering.

        • telemachus

          The main issue and the issue that prolongs the Middle East conflict is the issue of Judea and Samaria allocated to the Palestinians under resolution 181 but now being used as Israeli Real Estate
          If the American Christian Right would lay off reasonable Americans would make the Israelis talk Turkey with the Palestinians and a potential nuclear flashpoint would be removed

  • Chris Morriss

    Why does this man, like so many others, bow their knees before the mendacious Israelis?

    • Hexhamgeezer

      Funny thing is is if one did bow ones knees to an Israeli one would be safe. Do the same to anyone else from the region and one would feel a sword across ones neck.

      Mendacious? Compared to..?

      • Chris Morriss

        Israel lied for many years about its nuclear weapons development, in the same way as it lies now about its biological weapons program.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          The proper reference is that they say little or nothing about their weapons programs.

  • Bonkim

    Mr Blackman’s pro- Israeli propaganda shows through – Israel has forgotten its own historic memory of the holocaust – that oppressing a minority race or religion after usurping their land or collective punishment for particular criminal acts are no different from the infamous practices of the Nazis. Doubt if the US or Britain will jump into a middle-east war on Israel’s side if Israel was to unilaterally do something silly. It has disregarded friendly advice to moderate arbitrary criminal behaviour as occupiers of Palestinian lands. Those who live by the sword die by their swords. Nethanyahu’s call was that of a bully unsure of his next step but wishing to drag all into his path to self-destruct.

    • Tom Tom

      The Holocaust had nothing to do with oppressing minorities and everything to do with association of Jewish Internationalism with Capitalism on the one hand and Bolshevism on the other. It was the destruction of national identity that Hitler railed against and the dilution of Austria-Hungary as the non-German population expanded faster than the German-nation – exactly the point Austin Barry unwittingly made 2 hours ago in the context of Jews and Muslims in the UK

      • telemackus

        I must apologise for my fellow national socialists. Hating the Jews is proving to be impossible to eradicate and has become institutionalised anti-semitism in the Labour Party. We have forgotten the mistakes from our past.

        • HookesLaw

          I sincerely hope TomTom’s comments are proving very educational to some of the other-while more gullible.

        • Chris Morriss

          But some of us have not forgotten the torture and mutilation of the British serving in the Palestine police force by the local Jews. They were serving in the police force because they were unable to get UK jobs after being de-mobilised after the war. My father was one of those who considered taking up the offer and later on was very glad that he hadn’t.

          • Tom Tom

            Don’t forget Menachem Begin who got himself out of Poland as a “Polish” soldier in Anders’ Army but as soon as he got near Palestine he defected as so many others into the Etzel and Irgun to fight the British.

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