No, Mr Cameron. The Kenyan massacre is all about Islamism

23 September 2013

3:42 PM

23 September 2013

3:42 PM

Here we go again. A group of Islamist terrorists armed with guns and grenades head into a shopping mall in Kenya. They separate out the Muslims from the non-Muslims, let the former go free and massacre the latter.

Cue the usual responses. The British Prime Minister, David Cameron, says:

‘These appalling terrorist attacks that take place where the perpetrators claim they do it in the name of a religion – they don’t.  They do it in the name of terror, violence and extremism and their warped view of the world. They don’t represent Islam or Muslims in Britain or anywhere else in the world.’ 

I don’t think any sensible person would argue that the perpetrators represent all Muslims. But it seems strange to say that a separation of people — and massacre of them — based solely on their religious identity can be said to have nothing to do with religion.


Various Muslims and other commentators have done the same shtick — once again claiming that the motivations of the extremists are nothing to do with religion, but are instead political in motive. More original attempts to escape the point include the suggestion by Sir Simon Jenkins in today’s Guardian that shopping malls themselves are to blame for the attack:

‘The modern urban obsession with celebrity buildings and high-profile events offers too many publicity-rich targets. A World Trade Centre, a Mumbai hotel, a Boston marathon, a Nairobi shopping mall are all enticing to extremists. Defending them is near impossible. Better at least not to create them. A shopping mall not only wipes out shopping streets, it makes a perfect terrorist fortress, near impossible to assault.’

All of which suggests, for the thousandth time, that everybody is trying to avoid the point.

I can see why politicians like David Cameron want to make sure that nobody blames Muslims as a whole for attacks like this. But telling the lie that such attacks have nothing whatsoever to do with Islam does no good at all. It lets the extremists off the hook and infuriates everybody else who end up wondering why the Prime Minister cannot see what everybody else can see.

As I have said often in response to this ‘noble lie’, the only way that Islam is going to get through its current problems is if followers of the religion realise that they have to actively confront the problem. Each provision of an opt-out and excuse delays the day when the religion properly confronts itself and makes the claims of the jihadis a wholly impermissible — instead of plausible and sometimes permissible — response to the religion in whose name they act.

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Show comments
  • Aasiyah Sattar

    Realpredictor Now that’s very contradicting, you say no you don’t need to know about Islam or what the quraan says, yet you link the Muslim’s that kill and cause havoc with Islam . Maybe i have a different mind set but in order to be a critic you need to know every detail in order to have the choice to hate and criticize anything. For example you cannot hate a man because of the shoes he chooses to wear until you know the reason behind his choice of wearing those shoes. Basically its unrealistic and just sheer ignorance. You cannot blame the quraan and the prophet for the happenings of today until you’ve discovered what Islam entails, like I cannot blame your english teacher for the vulgar language you may use. Typical example everyone is so against Shariah Law yet they mistakenly add chopping of limbs and stoning, when our Shariah Law has five unchanged pillars, which is as follows.

    1. To believe in Allah and the last prophet
    2. To fast
    3.To give charity
    4. To pray 5 times a day
    5. To perform pilgrimage if you by the means to.

    This is our law which is expected from every single muslim, so why would these laws interfere with those of the westonised countrys ?

    • NadePaulKuciGravMcKi

      a reasonable question

  • Charlie Reeves

    Malala Yousafzai,
    Why can’t moderate Islamic men be half as brave as this young 16 year old girl
    who was shot in the head and neck in an assassination attempt by Taliban gunmen
    while returning home on a school bus. Her attempted assassination was because
    she spoke out for woman’s rights and against Taliban rule. Where are the brave
    moderate Islamic men of the world. If the moderate Islamic men of the world would act 10% as brave as this little girl. Islam would go back to being the Religion of peace that Mohammad intended it to be. Why are they not rioting the streets? Why are they not demanding justice? Where are they?

  • Charlie Reeves

    Aasiyah Sattar are you clapping now?

    • Aasiyah Sattar

      Ok i seemed to have missed the punch line of some sort , why should i be clapping again?

  • Realpredictor

    No one needs to know islam or the koran. The only thing one must have is a normal perception. The massacres in the Muslim countries (Syria, Egypt, Pakistan, Africa, etc) says all! Not only Christians are being massacred but also on their OWN people they commit genocide! And all this in the name of Allah! So you can write hundreds of pages, the REALITY is still the best proof!

    • Aasiyah Sattar

      And hence again , i don’t mind repeating myself but seriously ? If muslims were killing muslims in the name of Allah? I’m sorry i just wrote that and it sounds retarded , so muslims would kill other muslims , why again ? Maybe the reason could be they weren’t muslim enough ? Seriously dude do you watch the news on fast forward? This is not a religious war, do you know how the war in Syria started? Its got nothing , zilch, nada, to do with religion. Its about politics and presidency. Do you know how many children were killed ? Screw everything else which human could kill a a defenseless women and her child? So yes i could give you my whole quraan but it would defeat the purpose, I’m not here to jump up and down for the pigs who kill in the name of my god, I’m here purely defending my religion, for the animals that kills the innocent in the name of religion, i say hang them, gas them torture them, but they are not from my people

      • Realpredictor

        I understand your urge to to defend your religion, that’s what most believers do! But I’m a realist I’m only interested in true facts and no one can force me to believe otherwise , because I am in possession of a good perception and the necessary brains to figger it out by myself! The true facts are all over the news, including the horrifying videos! One must be ór blind ór retarded to ignore this!

        One of the most truthful publishers, reporting daily about the situation in the Arabic world is
        And based on this it is very easy to conclude that the Islam is not a religion, but very dangerous political ideology with the goal of world domination!

  • Charlie Reeves

    Robert Spencer

  • Realpredictor

    No one needs to know islam or the koran. The only thing one must have is a perception ability. The massacres in the Muslim countries (Syria, Egypt, Pakistan, Africa, etc) says all! Not only Christians are being massacred but also on their OWN people they commit genocide! And all this in the name of Allah! So you can write hundreds of pages, the REALITY is still the best proof!

  • Angela Horne

    I listen to Wafa Sultan, Mosab Yousef, Maryam Namazie. There is Muslim terror and violence, nor do you have to look far to see it, Muslims killing each other in Syria, all over – gays hanged, stoning and whipping women, female genital mutilation, amputations as punishment, Ramadan’s self-harm parade, sorry, but there are demands for blood that I do not see in any other religion.

  • Charlie Reeves

    Islam does not have a separation between church and state, the state and the church are the same. The ultimate goal of Islam is to have the entire world to be under one GOD, ruling one state everyone and everything else out side of this view is and are infidels. This is what their Koran teaches them. The modern and more secular Muslims are not good Muslims. If they were they too would be out terrorizing people to stomp out the infidels. In true Islam there is no such thing as a secular Muslim. Either you believe the crap that the Koran teaches you or you do not. Those that do accept
    the Koran in full …… kill infidels. Those that don’t, cherry pick verses
    and are more able to live among the rest of us, but are not True …devout
    people of ISLAM. Therefore they cannot say anything against True ISLAM. If and
    when they do. ..they become worse than infidels they are apostates, something
    worse than an infidel and according to the Koran is subject to death. And this is the reason why, you do not have THE GOOD Islamic people policing their own religion.

    • Aasiyah Sattar

      I’m not sure whether to clap to that or give you a standing ovation . But yes you must be a mufti (most learned and highly respected being) in Islam, please do tell me more or which verse you’ve memories this ? I think you just miiiiggghhttt have your religions confused my friend, we not the illuminate which strives on a One World Order..Although i will give you credit for getting one thing right though, we do no separate our church and our state , i don’t think any religion would , the so call state that you speak about is man made our religion is revealed by god 1400 years ago long before the state was even invented, so apologies for not having to move the time and changes of man. Your so called modern muslims as you may call us does not exist , because just maybe our religion hasn’t changed so trying to differentiate between the two is beyond idiocy . You have this whole theory on Islam but you can’t even spell the word Quraan properly , just shows how much you know..I believe in my quraan just as much as 25000 other people in my community does , so i might come to much disappointment to you that I’m not stabbing my non muslim neighbour in the head for not accepting my religion, or causing mass murder..And just by the way “THE ULTIMATE” goal in Islam is living by the five pillars of Islam which I’m most certain you know about since you know about what the quraan is all about. It must have been hard reading it though since its in arabic, but I’m so really interested about the killings and the goal where did you get these amazing findings from its the first I’ve heard of it and I’m so intrigued please do tell me more

      • Charlie Reeves

        You are correct, I am not of any authority, nor do I have any real scholarly credentials to really give any insight on what is and is not Islam. And I apologize for the ignorant mistake I previously made in misspelling the word Quaraan. I am a lot embarrassed about that. So no, I’m not a mufti. I know little about the Quaraan and am learning a lot daily. Most likely from people you would disagree with. I personally believe that 90% of Muslims such as yourself are as peace loving as anyone else can be, and that Islam is being
        hi-jacked by Islamic extremist, and does not represent the majority of what most Muslims feel.
        So my question is, why is it when a cartoonist expresses his right of free speech, by drawing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammad the entire Islamic community, goes into complete and utter chaos by rioting in the streets, and even killing innocent people just over a cartoon. But when a group of thugs go into a mall and shoot people in the head after asking men and woman questions about Islam, and if they got it wrong ….pow. They let the Muslims that got the answers right go. Where is the Chaos, the rioting in the streets, the demand that Islam has been violated by these thugs. Where are the fatwas the rulings against these thugs. I just find this imbalance kind of Ironic. I feel if the majority of Muslims would be brave enough to speak out with the same anger that they had with a drawing of a cartoon. Islam would no longer be the world problem that it is.

        • crosscop

          They cannot honestly speak out – because the killings are justified by the Koran. See Surra 5:32 and 5:33 for instance.

          • Aasiyah Sattar

            I really am convinced you speed read through everything, or maybe you just interpret a verse to suit you so I’ll be kind enough to explain.

            5|32|Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land – it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land!.

            *in this verse the children of Israel are the jews you don’t need a PHD to know that,god says if you kill out of retaliation or for sheer pleasure it would be as if you had killed all mankind. So i don’t understand where the violence is being taught here? When god is forbidding it.

            5|33|The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

            *do you know what it is means to wage war? So because god allowed the prophet to kill those who comes to kill him and the people of the land , which is self defense, this is violent ? Should he stand unarmed and hope god would save him when a man five feet away is running with his sword towards him? Would you stand defenseless knowing a thousand men was on their way to kill you and your family ? Everytime you see the word kill in the quraan are going to automatically assume that god instructs us to take a life ? The prophet didn’t have super powers unfortunately , so please do not misinterpret what you don’t understand.

        • Aasiyah Sattar

          I totally agree with you, Islam has been hi-jacked and modernised to suit the barbarians and idiots who believe they killing for god, i don’t think they found the verse in the quraan that god detinctively says ,do not kill the innocent in my name, maybe they speed read past it. The cartoon again yes extremist, but as a muslim, we not allowed to take photo’s or have pictures of humans or nething that has eyes as we believe that angels do not enter home where there are portraits or anything that resemble it. I’m sure you too know of the devils hours or maybe heard of it ? We believe the easiest way for satan to dwell in a house causing mischief and finding ways to mislead you as he had promised god is through these eyes. Our prophet is very sacred to us we do not worship him as christians worship Jesus, but we follow his ways acknowledging that he had brought down our quraan the revelation from God. He is the reason why i am a muslim, no one knows what the prophet looked like as he was never described in our books or in our quraan. The prophet brought down the quraan and there’s only one verse in the whole quraan where god mentions him, this verse is not more then ten lines in over four hundred pages. So a cartoon character of our prophet is sheer mockery and disrespectful. Yes according to the law cartoonist has that right to freedom of speech and expression but shouldn’t there be limits to religion, why couldn’t he be like our cartoonist in our country and draw the president naked with a small penis. Cartoons are meant to create laughter so i don’t see the humour in the prophet. This isn’t just for my religion but for any religion.

      • crosscop

        Koran, Quraan, Quran, Qur’an… will ye have a cuppa tea, father?
        Seriously though – if all the violence and descriptions of torture were taken out of it, the Koran would be nothing more than a pamphlet concerned largely with fairy tales about Moses and some magicians turning their staffs into snakes and finding the puddle into which the sun sets each evening. Terrible book by a terrible author which – if it was written today – would be classed as hate literature.

  • Aasiyah Sattar

    ISLAMOPHOBIA , a word created by the westonised world not in hatred for muslims but oxford dictionary meaning of phobia “to fear ” muslims, so instead of playing out the identity god has chosen for me, hoping to correct the views on muslims and teach what was so wrongly advertised , coz clearly i haven’t made even a vague difference, im going to feed your fears. Agree to the comments of women covered head to toe might have samorai swords in that oversized dress she wears. Be sure to walk at good few feet away from her she might amputate your head from your body in a blink of an eye. Locking your doors at night may keep the dog out but be sure to sleep with one eye open coz we like ninja’s when the moon rises. Be cautious when you see a female with a head scarf , remember to keep your eye on her waist , if her hips looks heavier then what the thinness in her face shows, run in the opposite direction , if you don’t you’l be part of the earths erosion process. Memorize the prophet mothers name so incase of a terrorist attack in a public place you might just get a get out of death free card. Let’s feed the fears and enhance the scares, so that when the world is at war , the muslim’s who didn’t agree with the terrorist attacks will be innocent bystanders and not help either side, coz we have nothing to prove to any one else but the superior being above, and right now god is the only concern we as muslims have..

    • Petra Thompson

      Try making light of the fears of Christians in Pakistan, or Buddhists in Thailand, or homosexuals in Iraq, or Jews in Algeria (oh no, there aren’t any, they were all kicked out by muslims). Thankfully muslims are still only 5% (officially) of the UK population. But even so, it costs £3.5bn each year to police them and foil their terrorist plots.

  • Guest


  • Realpredictor

    Any sane person with normal a perception, know that these kinds of attacks are for 100% related to the islam! Anyone who says otherwise is either blind or has a lack of brain cells

  • Mohammed Khan

    What a stupid piece of writing. These terrorists represent Islam as much as the IRA represented Catholics. I am totally disgusted by Jihadism and the events of Nairobi. I as as liberal, PhD-educated (thus probably possess a higher IQ than you Mr Murray), integrated, successful professional British-born Muslim who has paid more in tax to the UK government in 40 years than some UK ‘indigenious’ nationals have earned in their lives now feel like coming to your house to visit you …oooh, I feel I am getting radicalised! Most Muslims in the world are peace-loving who are no different to you, or anyone else writing on this blog.

    • Daniel Maris

      Sounds like you are a bit on edge. How can you possibly be a Muslim and be “disgusted” by Jihadism? You do realise that all Islamic scholars agree that Jihad is an obligation on all male Muslims. Can you direct us to an Islamic scholar who agrees with you that Jihadism is disgusting? This could be a breakthrough – please give us a name of the scholar! 🙂

      • Aasiyah Sattar

        Ignorance is so overwhelming here, do you perhaps know the meaning of jihaad and what the quraan says about jihaad ? You so confident in your argument is almost hilarious for a non muslim to be that convinced of his bird seed like knowledge of our religion that he so blatantly wants to debate it. Let me help you look less foolish ok.

        What does Jihaad mean ?
        To smile in a tough moment is jihaad
        Keeping patience in a hard time is jihaad
        Struggling for a good deed is jihaad
        Taking care of old parents in a loving way is jihaad
        Forgiving is jihaad

        This is what our quraan says and your flaunting and the terrorist meaning of the word Jihaad and everything opposite of what our quraan is written

        So being disgusted about the so called Jihaad fashion trend these would be something i as a muslim would feel as well.

        And what’s with the “ism” its Jihaad not Jihaadism that word does not exist , or Islamisim or muslimism , and hope this is the break through you so seek..

    • Petra Thompson

      In 2010, muslim preacher Zakir Naik was due to speak at 3 stadiums in England. 30,000 muslims were going to pay and travel across the country to hear him speak. Zakir Naik was banned from entering the UK by the Conservative government, on the grounds that he promotes terrorism. Following his ban, the most prominent muslim politician in Britain took a petition opposing the ban to Downing Street. It was signed by 10,000 muslims.

      It’s very clear from that episode, that there are huge numbers of muslims in Britain who support the pro-terrorist interpretation of islam. At no point have muslims in Britain EVER organised a protest of 30,000, or 10,000 or even 100 muslims opposed to the jihadist interpretation of islam. That tells us, that in all likelihood, the vast majority of silent, passive muslims in Britain also support the jihadist interpretation of islam. So far, 342 muslims have been convicted of terrorism in Britain. Many of those terrorists also had degrees.

      In 2008, the Labour government banned Sheikh Qaradawi. That is someone who is the equivalent of an Archbishop in the christian church. Once again, Qaradawi was banned from entering the UK on the grounds that he promotes islamic terrorism. If Ken Livingstone knew Qaradawi’s views on terrorism, it didn’t stop him from inviting the pro-terrorism cleric to London (but this invite was a large part in stopping Livingstone from ever being re-elected as Mayor of London).

      Anyone who reads The Life of Mohammed knows that your religion was founded by a genocidal terrorist and slave-monger. Qaradawi’s interepretation of islam is far more authentic than yours.

    • cbinTH

      Murray doesn’t actually say in this article that the terrorists “represent Islam”. He does say they are a phenomenon in some way “connected to Islam”, which can mean nearly anything and thus is not demonstrably untrue.

      Murray calls on the Muslim world to regard the language and narrative of these sort of holy warriors as utterly “impermissible”, which seems sensible enough, doesn’t it? Maybe he is correct and the root of the problem will be addressed when Muslims leaders cease to laud violent political movements as mujahideen? Maybe he is wrong, and if so, how or why?

      And by the way, please don’t harp on about your superior intelligence or your career, or your contribution to the tax coffers. Both you and Murray are much more intelligent and productive than myself, but that doesn’t mean that I should accept the views of either of you without criticism, or that you or he will always be right, and I will always be wrong. Please don’t attack the right of anyone to intellectual autonomy, to basic human dignity, on the grounds of your superior IQ or moral worthiness. Thanks.

  • Juma Swedi

    You must be very stupid to believe that these terrorists are representing Islam/Muslims…. The same guys are killing a lot of Muslims in Somali and else where in Arab countries by suicide just to strengthen their terrorism domination and yet you say that they are working for the betterment of Islam? You should know that many Muslims have been killed in Nairobi attack and not only non-Muslims… It’s also logical that many of the victims are non-Muslims because the number of Muslims in Nairobi is far outweighed by those non-Muslims especially in places like Westgate shopping mall where most of the people who visit are rich….

    • Petra Thompson

      “You must be very stupid to believe that these terrorists are representing Islam/Muslims”

      I see, so when Mohammed ordered the mosque of Tabuk to be burned down, with muslims inside it, he was not representing islam.

      “It’s also logical that many of the victims are non-Muslims because the number of Muslims in Nairobi is far outweighed by those non-Muslims especially in places like Westgate shopping mall”

      a) they chose Westgate because it contained a disproportionate amount of non-muslims

      b) they permitted people to leave if they could prove they were muslims.

      You must be very evil to seek out places to excuse these people.

    • Daniel Maris

      Stupid? This is what the terrorist oganisation concerned says:

      TRANSCRIPT: Speech of HSM Leader, Shaykh Mukhtar Abu Zubayr, regarding the #Westgate Operation

      All praise is due to Almighty Allah, the Lord of the worlds, and
      victory is for the Muttaqeen (the pious believers) and there is no
      animosity except against the oppressors, and may peace and blessings be
      upon the noblest of Prophets and Messengers. As for what follows:

      Allah, the Exalted, said:

      “And when they advanced to meet Jalut (Goliath) and his forces, they
      invoked: “Our Lord! Pour forth on us patience, and make our feet firm
      and make us victorious over the disbelieving people.

      So they routed them by Allah’s Leave and Dawud (David) killed Jalut
      (Goliath), and Allah gave him [Dawud (David)] the kingdom and Al-Hikmah
      (Prophethood), and taught him of that which He willed. And if Allah did
      not check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed
      be full of mischief. But Allah is full of bounty to the ‘Alamin
      (mankind, jinn and all that exists)

    • cbinTH

      The writer of the article clearly agrees with you. He says “I don’t think any sensible person would argue that the perpetrators represent all Muslims”.

      Personally, I also think the perpetrators of the crime believed they were representing both Islam and Muslims. The two statements are not incompatible. In the same way that Communists have shot down striking workers, the Nazi’s murdered many Germans who disagreed with them, or a Hindu terrorist murdered Ghandi, so those who claim to kill for Islam will target first of all those other Muslims who disagree with their actions or policy. For a movement that is claiming to “stand up for” and represent any particular identity group or people, the first necessity is Unity amongst the group they want to represent, both in order to achieve the aims of the identity group and in order to simply bring the movement to power. For Islamic terrorists, they are even more likely to target Muslims, since their primary aim is to affect the behaviour and beliefs of Muslims specifically; to bring them back to the true path, to bring Unity to the community (as well as Unity to the community’s understanding of the nature of God), to reform them.

      Jihadi groups and their allies do speak about an eventual worldwide Caliphate, but their real motivation, and most immediate goal, is always to purge the Muslim community of immoral or unIslamic influences. So it is that terrorists who claim to represent Muslims are often very happy to kill other Muslims, labelling them as apostates.

      So the terrorists don’t represent a consensus of Muslims as a whole, but, at the same time, they believe they do.

  • Deepak Kumar

    Our Politicians are of the same breed as your politicos – pandering to their ‘vote banks’ that does not mean Hindus as a society are weak or cowards, – the leftists liberals are dominating the dialogue here – same as in the West – Human rights and so on – the educated ‘intellectual English speaking class’ I am sorry to say has been under the influence of the Christians – having being educated in Convent and Christian schools where they have learnt some of their basic thinking – It is not Hindus who are cowards – its the Charitable Christians – look deep into your ethos!

  • Petra Thompson

    “Those are not allegations. Those are f****** truths,” the doctor, a forensics expert, told The Star newspaper. “They removed balls, eyes, ears, nose. They get your hand and sharpen it like a pencil then they tell you to write your name with the blood. They drive knives inside a child’s body. Actually, if you look at all the bodies, unless those ones that were escaping, fingers are cut by pliers, the noses are ripped by pliers.”

    Ibn Ishaq’s “Life of Mohammed” (one of the core texts of islam), has the founder of this religion beheading boys and selling little girls off as slaves, he tortures a man to death, he has many women assassinated just for criticising him, he has a mosque burned down with muslims inside. And these are the the actions for which muslims fondly remember him. Heaven knows what a history of him written by the losers of these conflicts would say.

    And David Cameron seeks to prevent the public from knowing any of this.

  • Chaotopia

    “Cue the usual responses. The British Prime Minister, David Cameron, says:

    ‘These appalling terrorist attacks that take place
    where the perpetrators claim they do it in the name of a religion – they
    don’t. They do it in the name of terror, violence and extremism and
    their warped view of the world. They don’t represent Islam or Muslims in
    Britain or anywhere else in the world.’

    I don’t think any sensible person would argue that the perpetrators
    represent all Muslims. But it seems strange to say that a separation of
    people — and massacre of them — based solely on their religious identity
    can be said to have nothing to do with religion.”

    Let’s be frank – it is the hair-splitting relativist guff that fools absolutely no one.

    It’s akin to saying that the Spanish Inquisition & the Witch Trials had nothing to do with religion or that the self-proclaimed Communist states of the USSR, China or elsewhere had nothing to do with Communism, etc, etc, etc.

    I believe it is popularly known as the “No True Scotsman argument coined by Anthony Flew:

    As I said, it fools absolutely no one.

  • Angela Horne

    Why do asylum-seeking Muslims - remarkably, fleeing wars of their own making – go to Christian countries?

    • Aasiyah Sattar

      Fleeing to christian countries ? I’ve never heard of a christian country before or is the country suddenly owned by christians ? Not even a president or king owns a country. So tell me if your so called christian country was at war , you would be there serving and protecting ? Or would you flee ? And if you fled should your question be asked by the border guard to you ? And the worst part of it all is you got five likes president is christian and he has allowed million muslim refugees in our country once their country was at war, you seem a bit blonde or having a blonde moment but just because there are muslim country’s it doesn’t make the rest of the world christian country’s, In order to have a christian country it needs to be occupied by only christians or 90 percent christians as it is like the muslim country’s, and just by the way when a country goes to war the government is at war and the army fights the war not the people of the country

      • Angela Horne

        Christian kindness is why Muslims come here. In spite of your efforts to rebrand the world, I listen to Wafa Sultan, Mosab Yousef, Maryam Namazie. There is Muslim terror and violence, nor do you have to look far to see it, Muslims killing each other in Syria, all over – gays hanged, stoning and whipping women, female genital mutilation, amputations as punishment, Ramadan’s self-harm parade, sorry, but there are demands for blood that I do not see in any other religion.

      • Angela Horne

        Muslim asylum-seekers pay pricey pan-continental fares to get here, they can not seem to get far enough way – hardly a ringing endorsement

      • cbinTH

        You’ve never heard of a Christian country before? Never?

        You’ve never heard of the concept? You’ve never associated any countries with Christianity? You think that outside the Muslim world all countries have always been multi-religious?

        I think you are reacting to that comment because you thought it was a reference to Kenya, which, so long as it has existed as a state, has had citizens of many different religions. But Angela Home was referring to Western states, all of which have a Christian legacy. She was just reacting to claims of Muslim moral superiority by pointing out how Muslims are apparently attracted to the advantages of life in tolerant non-Muslim states. Personally I think her point is weak since people obviously emigrate to other countries mainly for the money. But, anyway…

  • PaulMurrayCbr

    The moderate islamists confronting their fundamentalists have the same problem that moderate christians have confronting theirs. The fundamentalists are right, and the moderates are wrong. God – according to the holy books – wants his children to massacre one another. Commands it.

    • Petra Thompson

      Neither “moderate islamists” nor “moderate muslims” ever confront the fundamentalists. You could count the known muslim dissidents on the fingers of one hand. There were more, but they keep being assassinated (as the koran instructs).

      • PaulMurrayCbr

        You get religious moderates anywhere where the country is safe, civilised, and prosperous. Iraq – before the americans bombed it (women in universities, etc). Iran now.
        Why is the american military systematically creating a world of religious radicals? Well, there’s the obvious reason – money.
        The other reason is that the american military itself is full of religious radicals, who eagerly look forward to a great war bringing about the end of the world.

        • Petra Thompson

          “You get religious moderates anywhere where the country is safe, civilised, and prosperous.”

          You think a country like Iran — where the elections are fixed, where people are executed, where they are introducing laws allowing 10yo girls to be married — is “moderate”.

          The muslims in Britain are 1000x more fascist than the rest of the British population. Hizb ut Tahrir — which advocates apartheid, dictatorship, and the execution of homosexuals — can get 10,000 muslims (from a population of 2 million) to go to its conference. Meanwhile, the BNP can get 200 nazis to go to its conference, from a population of 50 million.

          You are insane.

          • PaulMurrayCbr

            Fixed elections? Do go browse And executions?
            Here’s the thing, Petra: I don’t believe you. You are clearly a partisan of some sort. I just don’t believe you. As far as I am concerned, any declarations of fact you make are simply void.

    • SPW

      I’m sorry – I’m a Bible believing Christian and you cannot conflate me with an Islamic Fundamentalist!

      Christ commands His followers to ‘love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you’.

      The Apostle Paul writes: “Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.”

      Later he writes, “Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord.”

      MY Lord is my example, “When they hurled their insults at Him, he did not retaliate; when He suffered, He made no threats. Instead, He entrusted Himself to Him who judges justly.”

      • Guest

        You response is shallow and does nothing but demonstrate the paucity of your understanding of Christianity. Read the parable of the Prodigal Son – one of the best summaries of God’s plan of redemption. The greatest suffering and horror has been already poured out, not on unbelievers, but on His own Son, opening a way, where there wasn’t one, to escape His righteous justice. All people are nasty and the Bible reveals God’s plan is to save them from the results of their nastiness.

        As to the Westbro Baptists – their actions are contrary to the Bible and so they are not, in this regard, following their Master.

        Of course I don’t eagerly anticipate what God will mete out on the unrepentant – I wring my hands daily. God doesn’t eagerly anticipate it either – that’s the whole point. But He is Sovereign and He is Holy and He is Just and He will deal with all unrepentant ‘nastiness’ as you put it.

        All of this changes nothing – Christians and Islamists are not alike in the use of force. I am told to preach and to pray, to serve and to give my life for others. To love and to forgive. To seek to heal and to comfort. To mourn with those who mourn and to rejoice with those who rejoice. If you think this is extremism then take it up with the Author when you next see Him.

    • SPW

      Your response (which has gone btw) is shallow and does nothing but demonstrate the paucity of your understanding of Christianity. Read the parable of the Prodigal Son – one of the best summaries of God’s plan of redemption. The greatest suffering and horror has been already poured out, not on unbelievers, but on His own Son, opening a way, where there wasn’t one, to escape His righteous justice. All people are nasty and the Bible reveals God’s plan is to save them from the results of their nastiness.

      As to the Westbro Baptists – their actions are contrary to the Bible and so they are not, in this regard, following their Master.

      Of course I don’t eagerly anticipate what God will mete out on the unrepentant – I wring my hands daily. God doesn’t eagerly anticipate it either – that’s the whole point. But He is Sovereign and He is Holy and He is Just and He will deal with all unrepentant ‘nastiness’ as you put it.

      All of this changes nothing – Christians and Islamists are not alike in the use of force. I am told to preach and to pray, to serve and to give my life for others. To love and to forgive. To seek to heal and to comfort. To mourn with those who mourn and to rejoice with those who rejoice. If you think this is extremism then take it up with the Author when you next see Him.

  • Deepak Kumar

    If an in human cult goes on killing spree – e.g. people forget Ghengis Khan – unarmed men women and children – does that constitute as a defeat? The brutality and unprincipled marauders shocked the Hindu Community – never seen such thing before – as it is now shocking the whole world!

  • Deepak Kumar

    Really-now you seem to be delusioned – How did Hindus get out of European domination? Politicians and traitors abound within Hindus, I give you that –

    • Petra Thompson

      “How did Hindus get out of European domination”

      WW2. Britain could either defeat Nazism or hold on to the empire. We chose to lose the empire and fight the Nazis.

  • Petra Thompson

    “fingers removed using pliers”

    koran 8:12 “smite the necks and smite of them each finger.”

    But no, Mr. Cameron, it has nothing to do with islam. Clearly, on whatever planet David Cameron is on, islam is nothing like islam has been on earth for the last 1300 years.

  • Deepak Kumar

    I am no expert of this very deep subject – but Gandhi is no expert either – read the Hindu scripture = Gita – or get someone who is expert in this to explain- Hindus are facing these Islamists since more than 1000 years and still surviving while half of Europe is Muslim due to Caliphates and to day the British are wilting under pressure of Islam while Hindus still stand firm and strong resisting the onslought – defeat of Pakistan in 4 wars is a proof of the resistance being offered by Hindus – The whole of West is trying to buy peace!!!!

    • Petra Thompson

      You are truly delusional. There was no sign Hindus would have got out from the yoke of islamic domination without european countries’ imperial interests in India.

      “Hindus still stand firm and strong resisting the onslought” Your country bans the publication of the books of Indian historian P.N.Oak because he criticises muslims.

      Perhaps you ought to look at the number of deaths from islamic terrorism in India. Your problem with muslim terrorism is far, far worse than that of all of europe combined.

      You lost Pakistan and Bangladesh to islam. The hindu population of both those states has plummeted since 1950. Meanwhile the muslim population of India continues to grow.

  • Deepak Kumar

    Have you ever heard any Hindu army ever going out of their country to raid, loot, murder, rape, other countries, tribes or communities – Caliphates came to Hindu India to loot, rape, murder, and to convert Hindus to Islamists which they were successful to some extent – Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh and the Muslims of India are prime example of the converted Hindus – Why do things happen no one can say – Karma is a vicious circle -Hindus have suffered at the hands of the Caliphs and now maybe it is their turn to balance the Karma- remember Karma has to be balanced – to the smallest factor!

    • Petra Thompson

      Karma is a delusion. What was it that Gandhi said? The muslim is a bully and the hindu is a coward.

  • Petra Thompson

    Following the example of Mohammed, the muslim terrorists in Nairobi slit the throats of innocent shoppers.

    How very islamic. Now you know why muslim children are taught to slit the throats of animals in order to kill them. When I lived in a muslim ghetto, the nearest farms would lose live sheep and goats at Eid (to be slaughtered in people’s back yards). Neighbours with troublesome pets would find their beloved animal with its throat slit.

    Here’s the earliest biography of Mohammed, written by a muslim, where “the perfect man” beheads 900 men and boys in 1 day.

    Exactly the same method of killing as used by the killers of Lee Rigby.

    It’s like 1940, only with Churchill standing up and telling the British public “Hitler does not represent Nazism, he has perverted that beautiful ideology – these deaths have nothing to do with Nazism”.

    • Aasiyah Sattar

      What does it feel like to have your hijab yanked off your head by a man shouting abuse at you? Or to be chased down the street, shouted, sworn or spat at because what you are wearing identifies your beliefs?

      These are examples of what are described as anti-Muslim incidents specifically against women. Tell Mama, the government-backed organisation which records anti-Muslim behaviour, has said Islamophobic attacks against women have increased in the aftermath of the brutal killing of Drummer Lee Rigby in Woolwich in May. It says approximately 70 per cent of the calls it received since then have come from women. Of reported street attacks, 75 per cent have been against Muslim women wearing Islamic dress.

      For Andrew Gilligan, who has criticised Tell Mama’s statistics in the Telegraph and accused it of exaggerating Islamophobia, incidents such as “hijab yanking” are “at the lower level of seriousness” because they do not result in physical injury. Nothing has been as critical as the latest incident in France, where a pregnant Muslim woman miscarried last week after two men attacked her, but to entirely dismiss what some women have been reporting in the UK is still deeply undermining to those who have found themselves at the receiving end of unprovoked assault, physical or verbal, simply because of their faith.

      Muslim women and their clothes, their relationships with men and their place in British society are written and talked about and discussed and debated to death – but rarely are Muslim women included in those discussions themselves. That’s why I contacted five Muslim women who have experienced varying degrees of anti-Muslim incidents to find out how it has affected them.

      Some have been terrified. Others say things are not bad. Some wear the hijab, some don’t. Most asked to be anonymous because they don’t want their family or jobs to be affected by what they say. All are horrified by Drummer Lee Rigby’s murder. None claim their experiences are representative of Muslim women as a whole – if anything, they are tired of being seen as a homogenous group.

      Finally, all agree the media doesn’t help. “No one ever lets us speak for ourselves,” one woman told me. Some feel silenced and ignored by the press, not just because of their religion, but because of their gender too. By sharing their views, they hope they will be heard and not disregarded as statistics that some consider to be utterly meaningless. Here are their experiences.

      Ayesha, a 32-year-old who works as an IT analyst in London, was verbally abused and followed on a work trip in Manchester, two days after the Woolwich murder.

      “I was going back to my hotel after work meetings. There was a pub down the road from my hotel and as I walked past I heard a group of white men shouting things like ‘Oi, Paki’ and ‘Oi, bin Laden.’ I quickened my pace because I didn’t want anything to kick off. I heard footsteps catching up with me. Then I felt my headscarf pulled back and something tugging on my abaya. At that point, I just ran to my hotel, told the receptionist what had happened and asked him to make sure the men didn’t come in. Then I noticed a slit in my abaya – it had been cut. That’s when I got really scared, because I realised the man who followed me had something sharp in his hands. I couldn’t stop wondering, ‘What if?’ I was shaking. I felt incredibly vulnerable. I just locked myself in my hotel room. Now, I worry about my mum going out on her own, and there have been days I’ve been scared to take the tube.

      “Ten years ago, I was set upon by eight youths near my university campus. They called me a terrorist and beat me up. My mistake was to fight back; then they urinated on me. They left laughing. I couldn’t stop crying. The university reported it to the police, but they didn’t find them.

      “As a visible Muslim woman, I know I’m an easy target. But it’s cowardly to pick on a woman just because of what she is wearing. It’s not just Islamophobia – this is sexism, too. These men saw me as a weak target, and tried to assert their masculinity over me. I wish people could understand you can’t blanket an entire faith just because of a few  individuals who had nothing to do with us.”

      Leila is a 28-year-old who lives in Oxford. She worked as an accountant before becoming a full time mum to two young children.

      “I was walking home with my two kids in their pushchair through the park when a white man on his bike came towards me, looked at me, stopped and spat first at me and then at my children. I felt angry, embarrassed, anxious and scared. But more than anything, I felt shock. What upset me more was that he didn’t just spit at me, but my children too. I knew I had to get home, and as soon as I got in, I phoned my husband. Then I called Tell Mama. I didn’t call the police because, well, what would they do?

      “This happened the day after the soldier was killed in Woolwich. Since then, I’ve been nervous to go out. I feel people looking at me though I don’t know if I’m being paranoid. This isn’t the first time something like this has happened. I’ve been chased off a bus by three women who threatened to beat me up because of my hijab. Everyday I heard comments against me on the bus. I was terrified by what they said they’d do and was too scared to go out on my own. Eventually we moved house because of the threats.

      “I take my children to a playgroup in a church every week, and I’ve never even taken them to a mosque. It’s upsetting that just because I wear a headscarf, they might get treated differently. I blame the media. It portrays a distorted image of Islam and makes out all of us are bad. I hope things change for my kids.”

      Sophia Ditta
      Sophia is 34 and lives in Bradford with her family. Four severed pigs heads were left outside her home.

      “A fortnight ago, my dad found a pig’s head by our front door. He called the police to report it. I went into the garden to see if there was anything else, and there was another pig’s head. I smelt it before I saw it. It was foul. The police told us to ‘preserve’ them so we kept them under bags overnight until they could come round. They asked if there had been anything else, and I suddenly remembered two bags in the bushes while I’d been gardening two weeks before. At the time, they were too heavy for me to lift and I never got round to it. So we went into the garden and found two more pigs heads in the bags, badly decomposed. They had been there a month – since just after the Woolwich attack. They smelt foul.

      “I’ve never suffered any discrimination. We’re not the most devout Muslims, we don’t really go to the mosque and I don’t wear a headscarf. You wouldn’t be able to tell we’re Muslim. I see this as racism not Islamophobia, because no matter how Western we are, or how integrated into society we are, some people don’t see us as British or English. I think this was someone jumping on an EDL bandwagon. They tried to scare us, but it didn’t work. It hasn’t stopped me or my mum from doing anything. I’m not offended by a pig, though I am offended by the foul smell.

      “However, I reported it to Tell Mama, because although the police were sympathetic, they told us it was an isolated hate incident and nothing like that had happened in our area before. But I later told my neighbour who is also Muslim. He had found a pig’s head on his property a month ago too, and reported it to the police then. So it just shows they didn’t listen.”

      Mehnaz is originally from the UAE and was living in America until three years ago, when she came to England with her husband and three children to study for her PhD.

      “I was dropping my eldest daughter off at school and was reversing the car when another car blocked us in. At first, I thought I was in the way, so I was ready to apologise but then I saw the two young men in the car were screaming and shouting, pointing at me and gesturing at my headscarf in a very aggressive and threatening way. I was just holding my breath all the time. I felt so worried, and all I kept thinking was ‘Please don’t get out of your car.’” I managed to turn the car around and moved, but I was really scared of what they might do. I didn’t want my children to see. It really unsettled me.

      “I’m wondering whether this sort of behaviour will be a long-term thing or whether it will go away. My husband and I lived in the States, and even after 9/11, I never felt threatened. The media coverage of Muslims in Britain makes it worse – after the Woolwich murder, the media was so intensely focused on Muslims that I can see why it made people so angry, even though it had nothing to do with us. But we are not all bad, we are well-educated people who pay our taxes and contribute to the economy. Right now, we need an environment that fosters peace rather than hatred and I don’t think the media is helping.”

      Ola Ashi
      Ola is a 21-year-old psychology student who was born and brought up in Cardiff. Her parents are from Palestine.

      “Because I wear hijab, I always feel slightly more vulnerable. It’s always at the back of my mind that something might happen because of it – but it definitely doesn’t keep me up at night or stop me from living my life.

      “In the past, I’ve been followed home and spat at in my car. I often get people calling out ‘Paki go home’ when I’m out jogging. One time I came out my house, and people drove past shouting ‘BNP’. At school I used to get my hijab yanked. I’m not bothered what this is called – whether it’s racism or Islamophobia – as long as it’s tackled.

      “But I also know that’s it’s just a minority of people who do this. Muslim people don’t like being generalised, and I think it’s important we don’t generalise non-Muslims too. I have plenty of non-Muslim friends and they completely disagree with this kind of behaviour. On the times when I’ve had to involve the police, like when I’ve been followed or harassed, they were very understanding.

      “Since the Woolwich attack, I have felt more concerned but mostly I see people sticking together a lot more. My friends and I, whether non-Muslim or Muslim, text each other to remind each other when there’s an EDL demo going on so we can be safe and stay away.

      “The way I see it is I just have to show the best side of Islam that I can. My cousins in Gaza worry everyday about staying alive or being bombed by Israel. All I have to deal with is a few slurs. That puts it in perspective.”

      Some names have been changed. So let’s number line all the bad the so call terrorist and their muslim community ever done coz they the most hated in the world right now, so i guess the above article has justification and is  to be done right ?

      • Petra Thompson

        So you are now pasting entire articles into this discussion and pretending you wrote them.

        ” Tell Mama, the government-backed organisation which records anti-Muslim behaviour,”

        The bogus muslim-whinging organisation has had its government money taken from it, because most of what they claimed was lies.

        Most of the racist murders in the UK in the last 12 years involving muslims, are cases where it has been muslims murdering white non-muslims!!!

        This is EXCLUDING those killed by muslim terrorists. You people cannot stop whining that you are the victims, when you are the vast majority of terrorists, and massively more criminal than other groups.

        • Aasiyah Sattar

          I do apologize if it came across as if i wrote the article, all i did was copy and paste .i do not deny that what you saying regarding the killings are untrue, what I’m merely saying that your generalization of the words “you people ” can be may put in a different format as i don’t remember playing any part of murdering or committing any violent acts towards you, so basically yes i am the victim and so is my religion. All I’m trying to do is make you see that Islam had no role in the evil that these men have committed and they have wrongly used it as a shield or as a facet to mislead the world in thinking that Islam teaches us this. So right now i share your anger but unfortunately not your hatred my religion forbids it. I hoped to make you see a different view of what Islam entails, but understandably had i been on your side of the fence i would feel the same. It would probably take seven life times to prove the world wrong and a million like me too, so I’m gonna leave now hoping someday your views on muslims might change coz our religion is truly humble and beautiful, but as long as we have the extremist around that would be inevitable.

          • Daniel Maris

            Why do you think it is nearly always Islamic terrorists who do things like taking a whole theatre hostage and killing numerous people (Chechen terrorists), throwing a disabled man into the sea and attacking kindergartens (Palestinian terrorists), killing people on board planes (Egyptians, Saudis and Pakistanis), killing people on trains and buses (UK), kidnapping and enslaving for sexual purposes young girls (Sudan), attacking people going to Church (Pakistan)….?

            Sorry – we are just sick of it and of people like you posing as victims when you should be apologising for the actions of your co-religionists.

            • Aasiyah Sattar

              I have copied and pasted just incase you decide to interrogate me saying i made you believe otherwise, please read carefully and indicate if any crimes had been labeled as islamic terrorist or any crime linked to muslims in the survey of America and UK, or I’m almost sure with the religion factor and Islamophobia that’s so widely spread it would be mentioned,

              (CNN) – Violent crime in the United States fell for the fifth consecutive year in 2011 with murder, rape and robbery all going down, although crime remains a serious problem in many urban areas, the FBI said on Monday.

              The report of all crimes reported to police nationwide showed slightly more than 1.2 million violent incidents nationwide, while property crimes hit a nine-year low.

              Compared with 2010, the new figures show violent crime down 3.8 percent overall. Property crime was down 0.5 percent.

              Among violent incidents reported to police, murders were down about 0.7 percent, robberies dropped 4 percent, aggravated assaults declined 3.9 percent, and forcible rapes were down 2.5 percent.

              Despite the positive trend, crime remains a serious problem in many urban pockets riddled with gangs, drugs, and poverty.

              There were 14,612 murders last year, on average one every 36 minutes. That’s a small decline from 14,722 in 2010, but it’s a decrease of nearly 17 percent from a decade ago.

              Most victims were male and in cases where race was known, 50 percent were black and 46 percent were white.

              Statistics showed 514 murders in New York and 431 in Chicago.

              Guns were used in two thirds of the nation’s murders last year, 41 percent of robberies, and 21 percent of aggravated assaults, the report showed.

              UK Peace Index highlights rate of fall in violent crime
              24 April 2013 Last updated at 12:44

              London is said to be “more peaceful” than it was 10 years ago
              Rates of murder and violent crime have fallen more rapidly in the UK in the past decade than many other countries in Western Europe, researchers say.

              The UK Peace Index, from the Institute for Economics and Peace, found UK homicides per 100,000 people had fallen from 1.99 in 2003, to one in 2012.

              The UK was more peaceful overall, it said, with the reasons for it varied.

              The index found Broadland, Norfolk, to be the most peaceful local council area but Lewisham, London, to be the least.

              The research by the international non-profit research organisation comes as a separate study by Cardiff University suggests the number of people treated in hospital in England and Wales after violent incidents fell by 14% in 2012.

              Some 267,291 people required care – 40,706 fewer than in 2011 – according to a sample of 54 hospital units, its report said.

              BBC home editor Mark Easton called it the “riddle of peacefulness” and said the fall in violence was “perhaps a symptom of a new morality”.

              “We are less tolerant of violence in all forms,” our correspondent added.

              For its inaugural index, the Institute for Economics and Peace (IEP), which defined peace as “the absence of violence or fear of violence”, used Home Office data on crime, such as public disorder offences and weapons crime, and police officer numbers.

              It found the violent crime rate was down by about one quarter – from 1,255 per 100,000 people in 2003, to 933 in 2012. This was a more rapid fall than the average decrease across western Europe for that period – although not more rapid than all other European countries, as was stated in earlier reports on the BBC News website.

              These reductions came despite a 6% drop in the number of police officers per 100,000 people, it said.

              In Broadland – an area which includes three market towns, Acle, Aylsham and Reepham as well as part of the Norfolk Broads, and which has a population of about 125,000 people – eight violent crimes were recorded for 2012.

              Its average overall crime rate for the decade was 323 per 100,000 people – about a third of the national average.

              Welcome to UK’s most peaceful place

              The five most peaceful local authority areas, which also included Three Rivers, in Hertfordshire, South Cambridgeshire, East Dorset and Maldon, in Essex, recorded a combined total of 24 homicides over the decade.

              Broadland resident Paul Lancaster, who lives in Rackheath, told the BBC it was a “rural, very well-to-do area”. “I feel very safe in Broadland,” he said.

              Lewisham, meanwhile, had a homicide rate of 2.5 in 2012 – two-and-a-half times the national average.

              The year 2011 was the borough’s worst in the decade for the actual number of homicides – defined by researchers as murder, manslaughter and infanticide – with 11.

              All five of the least peaceful local authority areas were London boroughs – the others being Lambeth, Hackney, Newham and Tower Hamlets.

              Mark Easton said that while Lewisham, an area scarred by gang violence, was found to be the least peaceful area, overall the capital was markedly more peaceful than it was 10 years ago, with some of the biggest drops in some types of violent crime.

              The capital’s rate of homicides was far lower than in New York, Amsterdam, Brussels and Prague, he added.

              Of the UK’s “urban areas”, the index found Glasgow, with a murder rate of double the national average, to be the least peaceful and Cardiff and Swansea, with 60% less violent crime than Glasgow, the most peaceful.

              Sheffield, Nottingham and Leeds came second, third and fourth respectively behind Cardiff in the urban areas peacefulness ranking.

              • Petra Thompson

                You really are utterly clueless.

                Here’s the list of terrorist crimes in Britain since 2001. MI5 is not even permitted to describe them as “islamic”, but look up the details of these crimes and the names of all 330 people involved in these crimes: all are muslims.

                If you had any idea about the distribution of muslims in Britain, you would know they are almost unknown in peaceful places like Hertfordshire, South Cambridgeshire, East Dorset and Maldon, in Essex. Where are they concentrated? In places like Lambeth, Hackney, Newham and Tower Hamlets — places described as “least peaceful” in that report.

                Even in relatively peaceful Glasgow, one of the worst cases of racist murder, was the torture (his balls cut off, eyes gouged out, tongue cut out) of an innocent 15yo boy, killed by a gang of muslims! The muslim men in this attack went out looking for a white man to kill.

                Note that the things they did to him matched the kind of brutality we have heard performed by devout muslims in this attack in Kenya.

                • Aasiyah Sattar

                  U talk about me being clueless ? When you the most blank person I’ve ever met. Stating our prophet beheaded boys and killed girls ? When the Quraan mentions the prophet in one verse which is not more then five lines in over four hundred pages, and in five lines i doubt beheading and killing little girls and apartheid could be mentioned ,you tell me to read surah 2 and 9 when surah 2 is about the cow and the slaughtering of the cow, your so call bogus links about Islam which is websites which aren’t Islamic which might as well could of been written by critic such as yourself. You mention apartheid in Islam when the first person who stood at a mic calling people for prayer was a black muslim. Clue less ? You wana tell me about my religion because google is so freely available and has become your instant directory, foolish person you have much to learn and is more ignorant then i actually believed .I come to the conclusion that you as an individual strives on apartheid , you constantly bring up the “white” people killed , so how can you understand a diffrent religion when you can’t even accept colour, yet Islam is the most multi racial religion in this world. I had gven u proof from your own country that had dne a survey on crime still I’m clueless as im the one that wrote it. Coming from a well recognized broadcasting station i doubt they missed a few places. Truth is you dnt hate terrorism , u hate anyone whose not from your caliber , so basically you have no room to debate really, coz u as racist as they come. If there was no muslim’s responding to comments, you guys would probably fight each other on who knows and hates Islam more, which is utter bull crap. If you not here to have a subtle friendly debate with having to walk away learning things you never knew then this page is pointless, which pretty much sum’s up the mindset of most of you (going nowhere slowly) ..

                • Petra Thompson

                  “Stating our prophet beheaded boys and killed girls ?”

                  Look, you muslim ignoramus. Here is a direct link to 1 page of Sirat Rasoul Allah. Read it for yourself. It says he beheaded the boys and sent the girls off to be sold as slaves.


                  As Dorothy Parker said: “you can lead a whore to culture, but you can’t make her think”. I cannot make you read that one page from one of your religion’s core texts.

                • Aasiyah Sattar

                  Nice touch Petra , when all else fail vulgar language always has your back, and quoted too , ten points..As empty and tasteless as that statement may be , as a realist i might just bring some education to your childish and inhumane character that whores doesn’t choose the profession for pleasure, but to ª brainless idiotic with no class person such as yourself u live in a world you created you wouldn’t know that. You see whats infront of you and no further and to name tag people such as yourself as you love doing i do suggest the word whore would fit you in so many ways and so many phrases with countless different definitions ..So if you think a mindless may offend me please do try harder, I’ve gt all day and much more grins to give to you

                • Petra Thompson

                  Keep on avoiding the subject. I have provided proof over and over again. Your own religion’s core books show that Mohammed beheaded boys, and sold girls as slaves.

                  The Dorothy Parker quote is truly apposite. I lead you directly to the most compelling evidence, and you refuse to acknowledge it. I am not saying you are a whore, although pimping out whores and raping of female slaves is also permitted in islam:

                  No doubt if I had used the “lead a horse to water” version, you still would not admit what your own religion’s core texts say.

                • Aasiyah Sattar

                  Ur so called fabricated link on my prophet is written by a fool , by anyway i don’t have the time to read 150 pages of crap so could you please copy and paste the section of the time and incidents which its written about the killings and beheadings and whatever fabrication there maybe so i can answer you, please don’t give me links from a community paper because we have a community newspaper , who has front page articles which is constantly talking about invisible evil beings raping and burning places down , which to me is utter bullcrap ..

                • Aasiyah Sattar

                  How Authentic Is The Work Of Ibn Ishaq
                  Bismillah Hir Rehman Ir Raheem
                  Start In the Name Of Allah The Most Beneficent The Most Merciful

                  Like us on facebook:

                  Authenticity of Ibn Ishaq
                  The Major Problems With Ibn Ishaq

                  1- His original biography didn’t survive
                  2- Muslims Scholars Opinion
                  3- What Non-Muslims says about Ibn Ishaq

                  1- His original biography didn’t survive

                  The original text of the Sīrat Rasūl Allah (Biography of Muhammad) by Ibn Ishaq (Medina 85 A.H.; Bagdad 151 ) did not survive. Yet it was one of the earliest substantial biographies of Muhammad. Fortunately, as noted above, much of the original text was copied over into a work of his own by Ibn Hisham (Basra; Fustat c.218 A.H.)

                  Ibn Hashim himself claimed:
                  “God willing I shall begin this book with Isma’il son of Ibrahim and mention those of his offspring who were the ancestors of God’s apostle one by one with what is known about them, taking no account of Isma’il’s other children, omitting some of the things which has been recorded in this book in which there is no mention of the apostle and about which the Quran says nothing and which are not relevant to anything in this book or an explanation of it or evidence for it; poems which he quotes that no authority on poetry whom I have met knows of; things which it is disgraceful to discuss; matters which would distress certain people; and such reports as al-Bakka’i told me he could not accept as trustworthy – all these things I have omitted. But God willing I shall give a full account of everything else so far as it is known and trustworthy tradition is available.
                  [The Life of Muhammad, A Translation of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah, with introduction and notes by Alfred Guillaume [Karachi Oxford University Press, Karachi, Tenth Impression 1995, p. 691] 

                  2- Muslims Scholars Opinion

                  Shaykh ibn Taymiyyah said:
                  “Allah has provided evidence (i.e. Isnad) establishing the authenticity or lack thereof of the narrations that are necessary in matters of the religion. It is well known that most of what was reported in aspects of Tafsir (commentaries on the Qur’an) is similar to narrations reporting Maghazi (or Seerah) and battles, promoting Imam Ahmad to state that three matters do not have Isnad: Tafsir, Mala’him (i.e. great battles), and Maghazi. This is because most of their narrations are of the Maraseel (without reliable companions or successor) type, such as narrations reported by Urwah Ibn az-Zubair, ash-Sha’bi, az-Zuhri, Musa Ibn Uqbah and Ibn Ishaq.” (Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah, Majmu’ Al Fataawa, Volume, 13, page 345)

                  Imam Malik on Ibn Ishaq:
                  Imam Malik was not the only contemporary of Ibn Ishaq’s to have problems with him. Despite writing the earliest biography of Prophet Muhammad, Scholars such as al-Nisa’I and Yahya b. Kattan did not view Ibn Ishaq as a reliable or authoritative source of Hadith. (Jones, J.M.B. Ibn Ishak. Vol. IV, in Encyclopaedia of Islam, edited by Ch. Pellat, and J. SchachtV.L.M.B. Lewis. London: Luzac & Co., 1971: pages 810-811)

                  Malik bin Anas Bin Malik bin Abu Amir Al-Asbahi (715-801 C.E.) or Imam Malik– lived cloest in the time to the life of Prophet Muhammad of all the collectors of the hadith (Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, etc). He was born more than 80 years after the death of the Prophet. Imam Malik was a complier of a respected hadith collection, called Muwatta. Imam Malik was a hadith scholar. Imam Malik called Ibn Ishaq a liar and an imposter for writing false stories about Prophet Muhammad. Imam Malik has said that Ibn Ishaq “reports traditions on the authority of the Jews”.(Kadhdhab and Dajjal min al-dajajila. Uyun al-athar, I, 16-7)
                  In his valuable introduction Ibn Sayyid al-Nas provides a wide-ranging survey of the controversial views on Ibn Ishaq. In his full introduction to the Gottingen edition of the Sira, Wustenfeld in turn draws extensively on Ibn Sayyid al-Nas.

                  Imam Hanbal and Iand Ahmad on Ibn Ishaq
                  Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal was asked about the solitary reports of Ibn Ishaq if they are considered reliable. He said “No!”. See Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, Da’ira Ma’arif Nizamia, Hyderabad, 1326 A.H. vol.9 p.43

                  Because of his tadlīs (unrealible sources) many scholars including Muhammad al-Bukhari hardly ever used his narrations in their sahih books.
                  (A Biography of the Prophet of Islam, By Mahdī Rizq Allāh Aḥmad, Syed Iqbal Zaheer, pg. 18)
                  According to al-Khatib al-Baghdādī, all scholars of ahadith except one no longer rely on any of his narrations, although truth is not foreign to him.
                  (Al-Khatīb al-Baghdādī, Tārīkh Baghdād)
                  Others, like Ahmad ibn Hanbal, rejected his narrations on all matters related to fiqh. Al-Dhahabī concluded that despite his good qualities any narration solely transmitted through him should probably be considered as containing munkar. (Al-Dhahabī, Mīzān al-itidāl fī naqd al-rijāl, at “Muhammad ibn Ishaq)

                  3- What Non-Muslims says about Ibn Ishaq

                  The work of Ibn Ishaq is much of criticism. Ibn Ishaq work contain several false stories regarding Muhammad. Even Western Non-Muslims says about Ibn Ishaq
                  Western non-Muslim researchers also criticized Ibn IssHaaq:
                  “False ascription was rife among the 8th century scholars and that in any case Ibn Ishaq and contemporaries were drawing on oral traditions.” (Cook, M: Muhammad, Oxford 1983. pg. 65)

                  Even a famous anti-islamic scholar criticize the work of Ibn Ishaq

                  The famous Polemist and anti-Islam author Robert Spencer admits in his book The Truth about Muhammad , that “However, Ibn Ishaq’s life of Muhammad is so unashamedly hagiographical that its accuracy is questionable.” (Spencer, Robert: The Truth about Muhammad, Regnery Publishers, 2006 pg. 25) Despite his negative opinion regarding Ibn Ishaq, out of the 400 footnotes of Robert Spencer’s book, 120 footnote refer to fabricated stories from Ibn Ishaq’s book. Because Robert Spencer hates Islam so much that he is willing to present these stories as if they are true, even though he knows that their source is unreliable.

          • Petra Thompson

            “your generalization of the words ‘you people'”

            Do you know where I got this concept of “your people” from? From muslims in Britain! In debate with them, they were describing Palestinian Arabs as “my people”, they were describing muslims in Thailand as “our people”. I asked them: where were you born. The answer was almost always “England”. Then I asked them if their parents or grandparents had come from Palestine, Thailand, etc. The answer was always “no”. I asked if they had ever even visited these countries, where these muslims who they identify with live. The answer again “no”.

            Muslims think they are one people. This was shown by the number of foreign muslims involved with muslim terrorists in Afghanistan, 9/11, now in Kenya.

            Christians around the world never used to jump to defend the actions of the IRA. They might point that it goes contrary to the teachings of christ to kill. But it does NOT got contrary to the teachings of islam.

            Go and look at your koran. Look at Surah 9 and Surah 5. These were 2 of the last 3 Surah’s Mohammed invented. They both encourage apartheid and slaughter.

            Go and read just 1 page of the Sirat Rasul Allah. Mohammed beheads little boys, and sells little girls off as slaves. That is the evil man who muslims worship.

    • SPW

      This from Revelation:

      “I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.” (Rev 20:4)

      And which hand must receive the mark? The right hand (Rev 13:14)

      Beheadings? Right hand preference?

  • Mohamed
    • Daniel Maris

      Mohamed – why don’t you just answer the simple question: is it acceptable to torture an old man by lighting a fire on his chest just to reveal the whereabouts of treasure? It’s a very simple question. So I would be interested to hear your answer. Just to help you – I give an emphatic “NO”. But maybe you think I am like unreflective cattle coming up with an answer like that.

  • Mohamed

    About the need to take a critical view of our politicians here is an article by and academic where in his perspective on Westgate he reports at
    “British politicians
    and British oil companies have been the most active in seeking to corner
    the future exploration of this oil and it is not by accident that the
    most recent conferences on the future of Somalia has been held in London
    and hosted by David Cameron, the Prime Minister and head of the
    Conservative Party of Britain. One of the first companies to have signed
    a contract with the Government of Somalia is the front for British
    petroleum interests that is now registered as Soma Oil & Gas
    Exploration Ltd. This company was recently founded in the United Kingdom
    and its chairman is Michael Howard, a former leader of the Conservative
    Party. We are also informed that CEO Robert Sheppard has experience as
    an adviser for the U.K. oil company BP PLC (LON: BP) in Russia.”

    • Petra Thompson

      Good. Such oil wealth means we can deport all the muslims in Britain back to oil-rich Somalia.

  • SPW

    I don’t think Cameron is scared of the ‘Islamists’. He wants a secular society. One in which all truth is relative. So do the media.

    ‘Islamists’ represent those who take their Koran literally, those who believe it to be true through and through. Secularism doesn’t like this. Another example is the arrest/cautioning of the Christian street preacher in Scotland. He believes the gospel is the truth and behaves accordingly.

    What’s strange however is the weird situation where Muslims can behave hatefully in the street with police protection but a lone Christian sharing good news is removed. Strange.

    • Mohamed

      Yes, strange and curious. How does that happen? Is it because they can raise money to kick up a fuss as Petra was saying and this intimidates the police?

      • Daniel Maris

        Give it up Mo – no one’s convinced by your tactics.

    • Daniel Maris

      You sound remarkably like that other nutjob.

      • SPW

        I beg your pardon?

        • Mohamed

          He could be referring to yours truly, here, SPW: It’s part of the culture on this newspaper to hurl epithets when the game’s lost: the phenomenon is called *ad hominem indecorum cessio*, a nuance of the original fallacy – one of the few discoveries a Muslim has made on the British Isles in observations during discussions with a miniscule minority of her inhabitants who are of doughty, highly intelligent but sadly stubborn and leathery constitution, and one is forced to register such discoveries not in Arabic but in a beautifully cold dead language in order for it to be heard.

          • Daniel Maris

            Why not answer the question above? You’re dodging it.

            • Petra Thompson

              It’s interesting how despite being provided with direct links to his “prophet” beheading children, this “moderate”, “pro-British” muslim has no response. Despite being asked over and over again to condemn the turture and murder of Kinana by Mohammed, this muslim has no response.

              And he seeks to pretend that he is the one who is behaving with integrity in this debate, whilst others hurl insults.

              Once again: a muslim playing the victim.

              • Mohamed

                It’s a valid question but not relevant to the argument here.

                You seem sure of your sources. I have to be sure of my sources. I would advise being cautious about the sources and not to be tempted to connect reports to explain the behaviour of terrorists or before launching on obtaining premature or preconceived conclusions. Equally it would be wrong to dismiss the reports without taking time to get an honest and balanced picture to one’s own satisfaction. Petra and Daniel and many others are satisfied. I am not. You don’t owe me time to find my own clarifications on these questions, so I must leave you thinking whatever you will.

                I will address the problem in my own space at my own time to satisfy not the crowd or the mob but to satisfy myself. All are welcome to visit that space when I have written on it more knowledgeably.

                PS. There is MUCH that I have learned from you, but there are a lot of points in your comment above Petra that I reject. You may feel that you have a right to an instant reply on some of these points. Sorry, I cannot devote anymore time to them here and now at the snap of your fingers.

                It’s been great to meet all of you. The world is enormous and full of surprises, sometimes even edifying ones that direct us toward the good. I am a Muslim and I am of the conviction that it will be Muslims who will contribute to a very large extent to the restoration of peace in Britain and elsewhere. You must alter your definition of what a Muslim is so that the ethics of this faith are given the light of day. I will post references on my blog. I have to go.

                Until we meet again.

    • Petra Thompson

      In order to get the best perspective on this unbelievable trajectory towards civil war, I go to many different places. I go into conferences held by muslim organisations, where I’m often the only non-muslim there. This is how I know the “moderate muslims” get trounced by the fundamentalists.

      I also go into meetings of the far-left to see what they are saying. At one such recent meeting a “secular muslim” (with 30 years of involvement in local politics in Britain) stood up and said “the police are in cahoots with the mosques – they have delegated policing in muslim ghettoes to the mosques, and in return the police ensure that bad publicity about muslims and islam is hidden”. As cynical and as pessimistic as I am, it had never crossed my mind that things could be so bad.

      None of the far-left idiots in the room seemed to thing this was an astonishing revelation.

  • Augustus

    “… delays the day when the religion properly confronts itself and makes the claims of the jihadis a wholly impermissible — instead of plausible and sometimes permissible — response to the religion in whose name they act.”

    How can a doctrine that finds it impossible to separate the spiritual from the temporal, and where every manifestation of activity is forcibly subject to dogmatic law ever be reformed? One that formally forbids any change, any evolution, any progress? One that condemns all believers to live, to think, and to act as the tribesmen of the 7th and 8th Century A.D. acted, and when Islamic law and its interpretations were fixed for all time? One that requires its believers, on pain of death, to make a complete submission to these dogmas? One that acts as an extinguisher upon civilization’s flickering light?

    • Mohamed

      There is no doctrine here, mate. This is not a bad time to confront what we mean by words like ‘religion’ because it is being used to justify all sorts of slippery arguments, in my opinion. In the Islam that I know and practice to the best of my capacity the spiritual and temporal have to be balanced in a manner that they confirm one another.

      • Daniel Maris

        Sweet words. Do you follow Sharia law or not? Simple question. If you don’t you’re not a Muslim.

        • Aasiyah Sattar

          You amaze me with your confidence really very intriguing i must say. So he didn’t get to answer your question so i would love to the liberty and answer it if i may. Yes I am a muslim so that would mean i follow the shariah law doesn’t it ? So what’s the problem ? Oh yes its the shariah law , could you tell me what the word shariah means in Islam and what these laws consist of ?

          • cbinTH

            If a scholar told you that according to holy law, you should do xyz, and you had no reason not to respect the scholar, would you do it?

            • Aasiyah Sattar

              Ok I’m sorry i don’t understand the question, firstly why should i take instructions from a scholar and secondly what would he instruct me to do

            • Mohamed

              Scholars are too busy trying to understand what is going on and how to translate the ethic into a language that can be understood by all and enable those who are unable to able to distinguish what is the effect of media and what the relevant facts are how they play a role in making the world a better place. Scholars do not concentrate on the word, ‘Islam’, by the way. The real scholars (not the fakes) look at the questions that can be defined in terms of ethics, politics, civil society, pluralism, culture, grace, grammar, science and so forth. They help and guide the preparation of curricula and they take seriously the need to define the kinds of problems that need to be anticipated (like extremisms of the various kinds, the clash of ignorances and so forth) for the sake of the next generation. I have a friend who is a scholar, a philosopher and a great thinker – well known, well respected universally. He lives in the UK and teaches in the best – most well known – universities and institutes which set the standard of education and pedagogy. He often tells me what to do and not to do and I have benefited a lot from his sage advice. But I don’t always agree with him. Certainly, a scholar who suggests that one is, for example, pontificating, deserves to be answered and can be asked to put such arguments in writing. If, however you are referring to the likes of Naik (whose writings and speeches are not worth even thinking about, let alone thinking about critically or analytically, which is what many self-ordained labellers of terrorists and libellers of Islam are doing) I should say that he is probably not capable of defending his theses in a recognised university and it is probably as a result of the emergence of such charismatic speakers that we, who need to work to find a better language through which to enable people of other languages to obtain a more clear knowledge of the meaning of Islam and faith, are obliged also to endorse western educational institutions and the tradition of western education and excel in that environment, in order to succeed in the mission of keeping the question of legitimacy of faith alive.

              • Mohamed

                As to not replying Mr Maris, you are right, Aasiyah, I was lost for words but you really filled in the blanks eloquently for which thanks. He had already dismissed me so I felt it would not be necessary to trouble him or myself. He and his friend (or is it ‘reflection’?) Ms Petra Thompson do not seem to be interested in conciliatory language for some reason. Maybe, they want war which they need to blame on someone else (it’s called scapegoating and Emile Zola teaches about that), and they want us to beg them for a chance to be considered seriously, viz this article here:


              • cbinTH

                Maybe you should have tea with Douglas Murray. I wonder if you could give him some tips!

                • Mohamed

                  Wow – would he meet me? I have just been asked by my old school in the west of England to consider how I’d talk to the boys and girls there on some of the questions that I would like to raise with the children as they are confronted with these serious issues. It is necessary to redefine the problem in terms that bring human beings back together at their best. I can’t say I know solutions but I am determined to understand the problem in more practical terms. I know that other human beings could help me do that as it has to be done in a concerted manner.

                • cbinTH

                  I doubt he would meet you, actually. He seems to be somewhat remote from the general public, perhaps because he tends to attract the attention of nutters – he doesn’t have any social media presence, for instance. So he’s obviously very self-selecting in terms of to whom he’s speaking. But you never know, he might one day meet you or someone like yourself and have a genuinely productive and subtle discussion about these matters. Perhaps he already has.

                  But it’s been my impression over the years that Murray was a rather angry, rather outraged man whose dependably passionate defence of a combination of the old fashioned perspective (in the sense of a certain patriotism and traditional ‘common sense’) and modern liberal values (in the sense of freedom) was indicative of someone avoiding some of the subtleties of some problems, and of someone ignoring certain implications. Never mind the legitimacy of his having the feelings that make him behave in such a way, the fact is that the peculiar strength of these feelings have led him to make certain basic erroneous assumptions, that in turn led to major blunders in the positions he publicly takes.

                  Examples of Murray’s blunders might include his objections to the “Ground Zero Mosque”, or to the proposed Athenian Mosque, or his speech about limiting immigration in 2006, or his initial endorsement of Robert Spencer as an ‘expert’, or his initial advocacy of taking the EDL’s self-professed beliefs at face value. All these things have made him a marginal figure. Which in some ways is a shame, because he’s served a valuable role opposing other, less marginal, figures in various public debates, whose behaviour and beliefs are problematic and even sometimes absolutely outrageous.

                  My own suspicion is that Murray is a guy who was so alarmed – and offended – by his perception of the response of UK Muslims to the events of September 11th and the War on Terror that he seems to have lost some sense of perspective, and to have jumped to some simplistic and therefore erroneous conclusions about extremism and terrorism.

                  I’m sure that many of the Muslim public figures he initially spoke to, when he first began to take an interest in these matters, only made him more certain of his beliefs. This is because I know the public face of British Islam at that time was dominated by committees full of men who did often hold views that Murray would have found extreme – such as extreme social conservatism, sympathy for the Saudi legal system, a strong sense of communal feeling that extended to sympathies with communalist terror groups, etc. All of which in his mind was probably, naturally, conflated into one thing – “religious extremism”.

                  I’ve always like Murray but I’ve also always felt that he really, badly, needed to spend much more time amongst British Muslims, in order to have a more realistic, practical, and subtle understanding of who they are, what they believe, and where they’re headed.

                  I don’t mean to imply that my own beliefs are especially valuable or subtle, just that Murray’s could be much better.

                  He seems to have ‘made up’ with Maajid Nawaz, or someone else at Quilliam, which is a start.

                • Mohamed

                  Thanks for taking time to position the question of meeting him in present time, C. It is significant enough that he was published by the Spectator, though, which lends a lot of respect to his writing and thought. If Petra is right, then he would be an opinion leader for not an imagined but a real front.

                  You said, ‘nutters’ – that’s quite a bold statement. Isn’t it a combination of selective reading, a sheltered education and an upbringing that ignores the outside world that results in such kinds of responses? It could even be the need to reevaluate priorities that causes people to focus on the minorities who are the most loud and boisterous and start manufacturing excess amounts of adrenalin to deal with the imagined threat?

                  What I mean to say is that education could quite possibly help the most worried to look at things more dispassionately. Did you ever come across this here: ?
                  I am following it. People want to share and do close encounters of the Xth kind and that sort of thing – that is a human thing and a good thing that ought to be encouraged.

                  You brought up events and names that I confess I have to go back to and make myself more conversant and I promise to do that. And thanks again for bringing me all that information.