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Alex Salmond’s selective history lesson

9 September 2013

2:22 PM

9 September 2013

2:22 PM

The First Minister of Scotland is masterful at mixing anti-English rhetoric, rose-tinted recollections of Scottish history and no gloves politicking. When he does it right, it can be devastating. History is at the heart of his campaign for Scottish independence in the run up to the referendum, so I was surprised to see how quiet he is today over an important point in his nation’s heritage. How come the Scottish government are silent over today’s anniversary of the Battle of Flodden. Where is the usual fanfare?

Could it be because the invasion of England cost James IV of Scotland his life in 1513, taking with him most of the Scottish aristocracy? The 30,000 invading Scots were not enough to defeat the smaller English army, and the ruling class of Scotland faced a near wipe out. Yet, there doesn’t seem to be a squeak about it on the Scottish Government’s website. Compare that to the plans which are afoot for next year’s celebration of the anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn, where Salmond and his cohorts are planning ‘Europe’s biggest brass band festival and a thrilling re-enactment of the Battle’.

Apparently these are ‘just some of the spectacular events that will form Scotland’s 2014 Year of Homecoming.’ Mr Steerpike cannae wait. ‘The five themes for Homecoming 2014 – active, food and drink, creative, natural and ancestry are all represented.’ It seems accurate reflections of history did not make the cut.


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Show comments
  • vieuxceps2

    I find a quiet satisfaction in the fact that Bannockburn is commemorated in Scotland by a vainglorous tower encrusted with anti-English gargoyles and a grotesque statue of Mel Gibson as Braveheart whilst Flodden has a simple stone cross with the words “To the Brave of both Nations”.Speaks volumes for the different national attitudes.England needs her independence from such people.

    • terregles2

      Mel Gibson. What on earth are you talking about ??. Bannockburn has a statue of Robert The Bruce. This statue was designed and produced by the world famous magnificent English Sculptor Charles D’Orville Pilkington Jackson. He is well respected in Scotlnd and indeed throughout the world. If you are English it is sad that you did not recognise his work. The body of Bruce was re-discovered at Dunfermline Abbey in 1818 and The great Pilkington Jackson was so precise in his work that he measured the skull of Bruce before he created the Bruce statue in 1964.
      The Scotichronicon is one of the most important mediaval accounts of early Scottish history and can also be viewed at Bannockburn. There is nothing at Bannockburn that is dispespectul to English people in any way.
      Why would anyone want to insult our nearest neighbours.
      It is sad that you used the Bannockburn Heritage site to denigrate the Scottish people rather than to appreciate and take pride in the great Cornwall born artist Charles D’Orville Pilkington Jackson.

      • vieuxceps2

        I refer to the statue sculpted by Tom Church who claims he was inspired by the Braveheart film “starring” Mel Gibson whose features it resembles. I understand that the statue has now been returned to the sculptor who keeps it in his garden, so that’s an improvement.
        As to why anyone would insult their nearest neighbours,I too am perplexed.

        • terregles2

          I don’t think you should mention Tom Church in the same breath as the great Charles D’Orville Pilkington Jackson. Why would you mention William Wallace in reference to Bannockburn. Wallace was dead years before Bannockburn and had nothing to do with Bannockburn.
          If a minor stonemason wished to make a sculpture of some historical figure where is the harm in that ?. Bannockburn like most other historical sites is an interesting place to visit. You sneered at Bannockburn confusing two separate historical figures and using Bannockburn to make a nasty anti Scottish remark.
          You say England needs independence from such people? What sort of remark is that? Such people in Scotland are like such people in every other country. They are a mixture of good bad and indifferent. They are also made up of a range of people from various countries and backgrounds.
          It is sad that you are so ignorant of history and also so ignorant that you refer to any nation as ” such people “

        • terregles2

          How sad then that you referred to the Scottish nation as “such people ” even sadder that you don’t consider that remark insulting.

    • Here’s Johnny

      Another little-Englander keyboard warrior.

      • vieuxceps2

        Don’tknow .It’s likely of course, but my wife didn’t leave a note ,he just left…..

  • Angus_MacLellan

    Come on, what do you expect. Flodden is remembered, but in a quite reflective way in any case no nation commemorates defeat. Do the English commemorate the 100 years war, or the Battle of Bauge ?

  • Fred Scuttle

    During a visit to Scotland this summer I asked a few friends and relatives what they thought. The consensus was no to independence and Salmond is a grandstanding twit.

    • Jambo25

      Strange then how he’s got an overall majority in Holyrood and looks quite likely to repeat it, so far, at the next Holyrood election.

      • Fred Scuttle

        That’s unfortunate. Surely Scotland deserves better.

        • Jambo25

          Scotland will get what it votes for. Thankfully, that will not, at Holyrood level, at least, be Labour, Tory or Lib Dem.

        • terregles2

          Well it wont find it amongst the Westminster political deadwood of Cameron/Clegg and Miliband. What a third rate bunch of politicians.

          • Fred Scuttle

            Salmond makes them look intelligent.

        • Here’s Johnny

          The SNP are still a mile ahead of the rest in the popularity polls, its kind of unheard of for a party to still be popular after 7 years in power. Maybe its because people think they have done a good job?

    • terregles2

      I asked some of my English family when I was visiting them in England what they thought of Cameron and the coalition and they said that in their opinion Cameron and Clegg were two unprincipled useless chancers.

      • Wessex Man

        I get exactly the same response from family and their friends in Scotland as Fred Scuttle.

        Everbody in England except for a strange band of brothers at Westminster and in their dwindling party members think that about them and Blair and Brown before them, and we hope that this discedited UNITED KINGDOM Government falls as soon as possible.

      • HJ777

        Strangely, thats exactly what my daughter (who lives in Glasgow) thinks of Salmond.

        My Scottish neighbours are rather less polite about Salmond. They are damning about his campaigning to whip up discontent with the union.

        As someone with both English and Scots ancestry (and Welsh) and with family in both England and Scotland, I share their disdain for Scots separatists. As can be seen by the fact that you post on no other subject, you are hardly representative of most Scots.

        • terregles2

          I am really flattered that you take note of all the topics that I post on. You constantly re-iterate that you know Scotland will vote no in 2014. You know for a fact beyond any doubt that only a small number or Scots support SNP and Alex Salmond. You know without doubt that the No vote will win by a massive majority.
          As you know that all these things are inevitable a No vote is guaranteed to win a majority why bother posting anything.?
          If I were a unionist and I was sure beyond any doubt that the No vote was guaranteed to win I would just be sitting back waiting to celebrate in September 2014.

          • HJ777

            I’ve just noticed that you and your mates post on no other subject but that you all pop up and post like crazy on the one subject.

            Ever heard of predictions, by the way? And I fully expect to be celebrating in September 2014, along with my Scottish friends (and most Scots, of course).

            • terregles2

              Ever heard of predictions? Well we have certainly heard your predictions for quite some time now.
              Personally I think anyone who predicts any political outcome a year before it happens is a bit misguided.

              • HJ777

                Only if they’re wrong.

                Otherwise, it’s just a case of being correct.

                I have a particularly good bottle of Whisky (Auchentoshen, since you didn’t ask) which I picked up when I was in Glasgow visiting my daughter last week, with which I fully expect to celebrate next year.

                If you ever visit Scotland, I recommend visiting the distillery.

        • Here’s Johnny

          Salmond is not head of the Yes campaign, why are you so obsessed with this guy down south? You love your personalities and celebrities that’s for sure.

          The Scottish people wanted a referendum, that is called democracy. Stop calling people separatists. If anyone is whipping up discontent its the media and people like you who refer to Yes voters as separatists/extremists/neo-nazis.

  • AndrewMelville

    What a prat! Can you spot the difference between a victory that achieved national independence from a defeat that decimated the country for no good reason? Do you really wonder why one is celebrated and the other is not?

  • grimbler

    Any one with me in thinking SNP shot themselves in foot by ignoring 10,000 Scottish soldiers who died for their country at Flodden Can you think of anything more heartbreaking as “The Flower of Scotland” falling on the field of battle against the English!

    • Jambo25

      Flodden is in Northumberland. That is in England. The Scottish government would have been attacked for usurping the authority of the UK governemnet and Northumberland council.

      • Wessex Man

        No they wouldn’t , Scotland until it achieves or not it’s independence is part of the United Kingdom and as such there are no travel restrictions on Scottish people going to Flodden Field to pay their respects to their fallen ancestors. When Scotland is Independent, I expect Scots will still be travelling freely into England as I will be to travel into Scotland!

        • Jambo25

          There are limits to where the Scottish government can spend money, however.

  • gerontius

    Dear god, I wish the Scots would just sod off and die.

    • AndrewMelville

      And we wish you would disappear as well. ciao. Bigot.

      • gerontius

        I’m not a bigot Andrew I’m just tired of the never ending whining and bitching from so many Scots. Why don’t you just file for divorce and go? – I doubt that many English people would try and stop you.

        • terregles2

          Well the referendum is in 2014 so we can hardly do anything before we have a vote. If you are so impatient with any debate that you want Scottish people to die perhaps you should stop reading the comments.
          What particular remark tipped you over the edge and made you wish that Scottish people would die. I am sure none of us have read anything so far that would provoke such a response.

        • grimbler

          We wouldn’t but my god there would be the mother and father of a shitstorm afterwards, the division of spoils/responsibilities and English/Scottish racial strife would erupt because you just know each side would have cause! Probably in the middle of it some other racial group might just think this an opportune time to gain a certain amount of autonomy whilst the English are otherwise occupied. All in all I hope that the polls are right and the Scots decide to stay in the UK.

        • Jambo25

          Naw. You are a bigot.

        • HJ777

          Of course, part of their agenda is to make the English feel antagonistic towards Scots.

          That’s why they pop up posting on this subject but no other.

          However, despite their hyperactivity, they are not representative of most Scots. They are a small and intentionally divisive minority.

          • Jambo25

            Part of whose agenda? Proof please.

            • HJ777

              It’s my opinion of the reason for your behaviour.

              Disprove it if you can. I believe that it is consistent with your behaviour and I leave others to make up their own minds.

        • AndrewMelville

          If you’re not a bigot – you shouldn’t wish that Scots should die. Apology accepted.

          Understand that Scots find being lumped in with the English somewhat tiresome. And there is a genuine debate about what to do about it. Scotland has always been a separate nation. The Union has much to recommend it, but causes many problems for Scotland as well. Ditto for full independence.

          Finally, remember that much of what you like about this country comes from its being Britain – and not just from its being England. A little humility together with respect and kindness toward your neighbours would work wonders (and be a welcome change).

    • terregles2

      You make it so hard to say goodbye. We will miss your balanced and intelligent analysis.

      • HJ777

        He means the small minority of Scots Nats separatists who swarm all over this site posting on this subject and no other, not Scots in general. Most Scots are perfectly reasonable people.

        • terregles2

          Oh so it is just some Scots that you want to die. The Scots who do not agree with you. Oh that makes it alright then.
          It is bad enough anyone saying that in the first place without another person excusing them.
          You think it is alright to say that those who disagree with you politically you would wish they were dead.
          There is a name for people who think that.
          Thankfully the majority of English people are reasonable and would never come out with statement like that.

          • HJ777

            Where did I say anything about wanting any Scots to die?

            I think that his use (not mine) of the term “sod off and die” is what is commonly known of as a figure of speech.

            • terregles2

              You make excuses for someone saying they wished that Scots would die. That tells us all we need to know about you and gerontius. Also tells us all we need to know about your judgement.

              • HJ777

                I think your faux outrage tells us far more about you and your level of intelligence, frankly.

                Are you professionally annoying or just a gifted amateur?

            • Jambo25

              He is asking for Scots to “sod off and die”. If that is a figure of speech so is my reply to him that he should go off and f.ck himself in a corner.

              • HJ777

                On your own assertion, your comment would also appear to make you also an “anti-democratic fascist”.

                It would be an equally ridiculous assertion, of course, but what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

                • Jambo25

                  Except that it’s specifically in reply to gerontius’s initial “figure of speech” (Your decription) and I have subsequently said that I do not want people I disagree with to vanish: either by ‘sodding off’ or ‘dying’. I l;eave that up to you and those you are defending.

                • HJ777

                  So, that makes you just as bad as he is, except, of course, that he didn’t accuse you of being a fascist.

                • Jambo25

                  How about leaping in to defend gerontius. As we say up here”If you fly with the craws you get shot with the craws.”

            • terregles2

              A figure of speech ?. Pedantic buffoon is not a figure of speech unfortunately it is just what some people are.

              • HJ777

                If that is how you care to describe yourself.

        • Jambo25

          So basically, he is an unreconstructed anti-democratic Fascist.

          • HJ777

            Obviously he must be a Fascist if he says something you don’t like. There is no other possible explanation.

            • Jambo25

              No, because he selectively wants all those Scots he disagrees with to “sod off and die”. Sounds pretty Fascistic to me. I disagree on lots of things with lots of people but do not wish them to “sod off and die”. That is the difference between a non-authoritarian and authoritarian mindset.

              • HJ777

                It sounds Fascistic to you because it suits your purposes to interpret it in that way.

                I find that those who seek to condemn others by accusing them of being Fascists do so because they want to close down debate – because they themselves have an authoritarian mindset.

                • Jambo25

                  It sounds Fascistic to me because he wants those who disagree with him to “sod off and die”. It doesn’t sound very open and democratic to me. It may be, of course, what passes for open and democratic discourse amongst you and your friends: assuming you have any.

                • HJ777

                  You have an unpleasantly insulting character.

                  Shouting “Fascist” at anyone you don’t like doesn’t indicate that you have any interest in democratic discourse.

                • terregles2

                  Think most normal people would prefer to be called anything rather than be told to sod off and die.
                  Extraordinary outbursts from gerontius and HJ777.

                • HJ777

                  That you would describe my comments as an “outburst”, when in fact they were perfectly civil (whether you agree with them or not) when other people are throwing terms like “Fascist” about and you do not criticise them, tells us that you are more interested in provocative smears than you are in debate.

                • terregles2

                  Poor old HJ777 defends someone who says they wish Scots to Sod off and die then gets stroppy and rude when Scots object. Nothing left to say.

                • HJ777

                  On the contrary, I did nothing of the sort.

                  Objecting – fair enough. Calling someone a “Fascist” is something else, which I note that you do criticise at all.

                  It would, indeed, seem clear that you have nothing left to say.

                • terregles2

                  I have never used the word facist and unlike you I do not speak for other posters. I objected to someone saying that they wished Scots would sod off and die. You then reprimanded me for objecting, sneering at my faux outrage, calling me a separatist fantasist asking if I was professionally annoying or a gifted amateur.
                  Don’t let me take up any more of your time.

                • HJ777

                  Your reading skills are letting you down.

                  I never said that you used the word “Fascist”, I merely noted that you offered no criticism of someone who accused someone else of being a Fascist.

                  You faux and selective outrage is plain for all to see.

                • Jambo25

                  Then it’s a very simple task for you. Explain to me how telling only those people you don’t agree with to “sod off and die” is open, democratic and friendly and not Fascistic. It’s certainly very authoritarian and you seem to subscribe to the same view.

                  Similarly, before you start accusing anyone of having ” an unpleasantly insulting character” you should, perhaps, not make accusations of low intelligence against people merely because you don’t agree with their views. Likewise, do not designate people as “fanatics” simply because you disagree with them.

                • HJ777

                  I neither said nor implied that it was friendly. It clearly was not.

                  However, I fail to see how it is undemocratic or that you can conclude that it is either authoritarian or indicative of Fascism. Is everyone who is rude or insulting or intemperate ‘undemocratic’ and a ‘Fascist’? You should be careful before you start attaching such labels to people – it does you little credit.

                  I suggest that you get out a dictionary and look up the word ‘fanatic’. Amongst its meanings (and the meaning I intended) is someone who has an extreme or obsessive zeal for a cause. How is that not fair comment about people like you who post extensively on these boards in support of one cause, and one cause only? It is a perfectly reasonable description and one that I’m surprised that you object to.

                  I’m a fanatic too, when it comes to my sports club. If someone points this out (as they occasionally do) I cannot but agree. Why would I take offence? It’s not inherently an insulting term.

                • Jambo25

                  How about I use very plain language for you. Wanting people who disagree with you to “sod off and die” is nasty, anti-democratic and Fascistic”. I want to debate things with people I do not agree with not simply wishing that they vanish.

                  How about you do not accuse people such as terregles2 of stupidity merely because she has a different viewpoint to you? How about you do not designate people who do not share your political point of view as fanatics. By the way, in common discourse, the term ‘fanatic’ is anything but complimentary. It is an insult and if you do not understand that then I woiuld suggest you use some of your spare time to take some kind of course on colloquial English.

                  As for me; I post on rather a lot of things as, being retired ‘fruit loop’, I probably have far too much time on my hands.

                • HJ777

                  “Very plain language” does not make your comment any less ridiculous.

                  Football fans – Short for football fanatics. Is that insulting?

                  You are a fanatic – unless you believe the dictionary definition to be wrong. Just because you don’t know what the word means and therefore have chosen to to be insulted is your problem, not mine. You are a bit of an expert on deliberately taking offence and then accusing others of being fascists. Just because you have taken offence does not mean put you in the right.

                  Do grow up.

        • Here’s Johnny

          If you vote Yes your not a reasoned person, you are mad, Is that what you are saying? Coming form a country who vote Tories and UKIP in….okkkk then!

  • Englishandproud

    So if every county or island in Scotland want Independence,,,will you let them have it ?? I mean I would hate to think that Shetlands interests are not best served by Shetlands people…All this is doing is creating division where it is not needed. Why the country cannot be united is beyond me. Why break up a country that is only 800 miles long. How ridiculous you are. Or is that you just hate the English. We live on the same island, speak the same language, are the same colour ( not that it matters ), have the same anglo-saxon heritage. I mean what will you do in 50 years time. Complain that you dont like Holyrood taking all your oil money and split your own country….GROW UP

    • AndrewMelville

      Duh! Every county or island in Scotland isn’t an ancient nation.

      It’s clear from your moniker that you are devoted to the Union – NOT.

    • terregles2

      We don’t all live in the same country. The UK consists of 4 different countries . The Scottish government have already had talks with Shetland about the Shetlanders having more of a voice in an independent Scotland than they have now as part of the UK.
      People are voting YES to independence to be like almost every other country in the world. There is nothing immature about that. Indeed it is immature to hand over the running of your country to the country next door.
      From your moniker you seem to be saying it is alright to be English and proud. I wonder why it is not British and proud if you are so happy being in the union.

    • Vrai écossais

      @gayandproud – Shetland is not a nation, it is an island, Scotland is a nation, that is the difference. The people of Shetland are all proud Scots (apart from most of the the English incomers who cause trouble). Would you let Bradford, Derby, Birmingham, London or one of the many other parts of Engerland that have majority non-English populations suceed from Engerland? I would hate to think that Lewisham’s interests are not best served being in an international caliphate.

  • Jim Fraser

    Oh, yes, Alex Salmond is guilty of eye-wateringly nasty anti-English rhetoric, such as he employed in his Hugo Young Lecture last year:

    “…Scotland will work with its neighbours for a common good.

    But most of all, in addition to these institutional, cultural, economic and practical links, Scotland shares ties of family and friendship with its neighbours on these islands which never can be obsolete, and which I expect will continue and flourish after Scottish independence.

    And when you consider our shared economic interests, our cultural ties, our many friendships and family relationships, one thing becomes clear. After Scotland becomes independent, we will share more than a monarchy and a currency. We will share a social union. It just won’t be the same as a restrictive state, which no longer serves the interests of either Scotland or England.

    When the Her Majesty the Queen visited Ireland last year, she spoke warmly of the ties between the United Kingdom and Ireland and stated that these “make us so much more than just neighbours, they make us firm friends and equal partners.”

    I like the phrase ‘firm friend and equal partner’. It will be true of Scotland too.”

    Perhaps Steerpike is thinking of his wildly inflammatory statement: “We are not oppressed, and we do not need liberated”?

    If so, may I suggest, as we say in these parts, that he needs to take more water in it.

  • Tearlach

    Whatever happened to all those celebrations in 2003 to mark the 550th anniversary of the Battle of Castillon. That wonderful event that marked the end of the 100 years war between the English and French. Surely a time and moment to celebrate the final act of such a tragic and long drawn out war.

    No – we did have a big event two years later to celebrate the Battle of Trafalgar, and I’m looking forward to 2015 and a wee trip to Brussels to enjoy the 200 years since the Battle of Waterloo (I’ve a GGGGG Grandfather who fought there with the 79th Reg of Foot – the Cameron Highlanders, so I’m going).

    But the Battle of Castillon – not many folk in the British Isles remember that one. A decisive French victory, it is considered to mark the end of the Hundred Years’ War. As a result of the battle, the English lost all landholdings in France, except Calais and the Channel Islands. The battle led to the loss of Henry VI’s mental health, which in turn led to the wars of the Roses.
    So I’ve looked for the Spectator articles on July 17th 2013, looking at David Cameron’s thoughts on the 460th anniversary on England losing its French Empire, on how that affects Anglo French Relationships, and on the impact of 1453 on the role of the UK, the US, and the French in Syria.
    Damm missed them all.

    • Wessex Man

      How disappointing for you to have wasted all that time looking for Cameron’s thoughts on a very strange anniversary of 460 years, now if you hang around until 2053 you could celebrate the defeat of the English at the end of the Hundred Years War, which many of we English do know of and our next generation will no doubt be commemorating the lost of English Life.

      or you could jusitfy The fat controller’s loss of memory, which was what steerpike’s article was about.

  • MichtyMe

    To add to Speerpikes wee bit of a history lesson, the Scots “invasion” was in response to a treaty obligation when France was attacked by the England of Henry VIII. Henry had joined Holy League of Pope Julius when promised, after the defeat of France, a coronation in Paris when he would be crowned, the Most Christian King of France, by the Pope. The Scots invasion was like the invasions of Europe in the 20th century to assist our allies.

    • Wessex Man

      that would explain your invading King being excommunicated before invading England, being implicated in his father’s death, breaking the peace treaty with England and his Navy blockading the Italian States eith the French Navy. You spin a fine line in propaganda!

  • Jeanne Tomlin

    “The First Minister of Scotland is masterful at mixing anti-English rhetoric…”

    So how about you QUOTE that “anti-English rhetoric” for us or else it is just another baseless accusation.

    • Dougie

      Salmond is too shrewd to indulge in overt racism himself – he leaves it to his proxies. Note his failure to condemn the racism shown by those who assailed Nigel Farage in Edinburgh and told him to “go home”.

      • Jeanne Tomlin

        Racism by those who oppose the UKIP? Really? And what racism is that?

      • terregles2

        The leader of those who shouted at Farage was English. None of the shouters were SNP memebers so why should any SNP politician apologise for them. It is called living in a democracy and politicians know that is part of the job. Miliband had eggs thrown at him recently I didn’t hear any party leader apologise for that.
        YES voters include many English living in Scotland YES voters are against Westminster government and have never been against English people unionists claiming otherwise will never make it true.

        • Wessex Man

          who cares, anyone in any city anywhere can experience a sense of not being liked-Hamish Macdonell-Spectator 15th September 2012, ah well glass houses and all of that!

      • Jambo25

        Any proof of that perchance? Any proof that the group Farage ran into contained any SNP members or followers?

  • HenBroon

    “Anti-English rhetoric”,The granddaddy of Unionist myths. It’s rather like claiming that the anti-racism movement is motivated solely by hatred of white people, women only want equality because they hate men, or gay people only want to get
    married because they hate Catholics.

    This debate is about government and whether Scotland’s interests are served by a parliamentary union which denies Scotland basic democratic control of many aspects of the administration of our country. It’s not about England and the English at all.

    There are legitimate, and serious, questions of democratic representation in Scotland under the Union. Although this concept may be difficult for Daily Telegraph readers to grasp, the desire for Scottish self-determination is not
    about England and the English. Shocking but true. England is not the
    centre of the Scottish universe, that would be Scotland. Perhaps that’s
    what they’re really objecting to.

    So as has already been requested of you, put up or shut up.

    • Dougie

      I look forward to your analytical post the morning after the No camp win the referendum.

      • HenBroon

        I’m sorry I do not recall drawing my stick along the bars of your cage

    • Vrai écossais

      Not seeing the commemorations over the Battle of Stirling Bridge, where a much smaller Scottish Army killed and annihilated a much larger English army (english military aggression at its best) and sent the few survivors back home to think again, or the Battle of Hastings where the English king was killed, all the English landowners divested from their land and the complete removal of the English ruling class by Norman-French ruling classes, the emigration of English to other countries (notably Scotland, Ireland and Byzantium). One can hardy call england english as it seems most of the english left or were killed.

      • Tomaz Sartori

        The Normans were not French they were as their name implies men of the north or scandinavian norsemen. I appreciate the inferior number of battles won by the Frenchies over pervidious Albion leads them to grasp at any victory to bump up the numbers but Hastings is not one of them. As for the Scots they have never come to terms with the fact that they did not lose their independence to the English, they sold it.

        • Vrai écossais

          They spoke French and had adopted French customs – hence Norman-French and all the French words in the English language. Hastings was a national disaster for the English, their leadership wiped out, Norman French aristocracy replacing the Anglo-Saxon one, the peasants reduced to serfdom.

          “Probably only 20,000 Normans and other Frenchmen came to England as a result of the Conquest. Nevertheless the Saxon country was transformed, French becoming the language of administration and government and the Conqueror’s followers displacing the native nobility. The Saxons lamented their lost freedom for two centuries while England now looked across the Channel for cultural and political inspiration.”

          http://www.britishbattles.com/norman-conquest/battle-hastings.htm

      • HJ777

        I’m not sure what your point is.

        I’m really not aware of any people in England celebrating any battle within what is now the UK, whatever the outcome (a few re-enactment societies apart).

        • Vrai écossais

          There are many celebrations of battles in England: the Battle of the Boyne in Liverpool, Medway, Manchester, Birkenhead, Portsmouth…
          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10603208
          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-11411101
          http://www.manchesterorange.co.uk/News/orange-order-parades-england-2011
          Battle of Britain celebrations
          http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/battleofbritain70thanniversary.cfm

          • HJ777

            You really are scraping the barrel there.

            Thee battle of Britain did not take place WITHIN Britain – it was a battle against an external foe.

            Leaving aside the fact that just because there are Orange Order parades does not mean that they are necessarily celebrating battles, (such as the Medway one you linked to which has nothing to do with any battle), I was specific – I referred to not celebrating battles WITHIN WHAT IS NOW THE UK. I suggest that you get your map out and look where the Battle of the Boyne took place – I think your geography is faulty if you think it took place in the UK.

          • terregles2

            As the Battle of the Boyne took place in 1690 and the now Republic of Ireland was under British rule then. You are correct ancient British battles are still being celebrated in England.

    • HJ777

      You and your fellow Scots Nats separatist fanatics are a strange lot.

      You never make posts on any other subjects, so you are clearly not Spectator readers. You simply go around posting en masse and recommending each others’ posts whenever you find any mention of Scotland in order to give the impression that your fanaticism is somehow typical. It isn’t.

  • terregles2

    The better together campaign think if they they constantly accuse those in favour of Scottish independence of being anti English then it will become true.
    It will never ever be true. YES voters in 2014 are against Westminster government never have been and never will be against English people.
    There are more than a few English people living in Scotland who are actively campaigning for a YES vote and they also vote for Salmond. I don’t suppose we will ever stop the no campaigners accusing the YES campaigners of being anti English but those of us who live and work in Scotland know that this is untrue.
    Most of the anti- a particular nation seems to be emanating from the unionists..

  • Malcolm McCandless

    Typical Tory, confusing “celebration” with “commemoration”.

  • JohnMcDonaldish

    What an utterly pathetic piece. “Anti-English rhetoric”? Where, when? Give an example of any Salmond anti-English rhetoric and I’ll donate £100 to your chosen charity. And I mean anti-English not anti-Westminster Government.

    • MichtyMe

      Correct. Salmond is a nationalist, a Scot Nat, but as a nat he is also an enthusiast for English nattery, identity, and self expression and reliance. The enemies of which this are not in Scotland but rather in the metropolitan political and media elite.

    • terregles2

      Guess you will wait a while for anyone to come up with any example of Salmond making an anti English people remark. He never has and never will but that will not stop the unionists accusing him of doing so in the future.

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