Coffee House

Don’t be daft – last night’s vote was nothing to be ashamed of

30 August 2013

10:07 AM

30 August 2013

10:07 AM

Are you ashamed of your country and depressed following last night’s vote against intervening in Syria?  David Aaronovitch  the journalist is.

Tim Shipman of the Daily Mail is.

So is Sarah Vine, the columnist, as well as, apparently, her husband Michael Gove.

[Alt-Text]


Paddy Ashdown says that Great Britain is plunging towards ‘isolationism’. Even our own Toby Young says ‘that the message sent out by the mother of parliaments last night to tyrants across the world was: “Do whatever you like. Gas your own citizens. Murder innocent children. Commit genocide. We won’t lift a finger to stop you.”‘

Anyone else feel there’s more than a touch of hyperbole here? A bit of straining for effect? A little Twitter hyperventilation?

Yes, the killing of innocents shames us, as a species. We must all denounce it and do what we can to stop it. Given. But last night was not some sort of thumbs-up for global terror. It was not Britain ‘turning its back on the world.’ It was a narrow defeat of a government motion that was rushed and unclear in purpose. It was the legislature telling the executive to slow down, look more closely at the evidence, and think before beginning hostilities. In other words, it was democracy. That’s nothing to be ashamed of. As Tim Stanley suggests, maybe, for once, we should be proud.

But it’s funny how these patriots suddenly prefer France. And funny how the supporters of global democratic revolution sulk when their country’s democracy doesn’t do what they want.  If these people are really so desperate to stop Assad, they can always do what some young British Muslims have done — go and join the fight.

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Show comments
  • FairBobby

    To refer to a democratic decision arrived at after open debate as shameful is an insult and a slur on the intelligence and integrity of the people who voted against going to war on less than certain evidence. If we were to attack Syria it is inevitable that lives will be lost. Ignore the propaganda that says otherwise. Men, women and children will be killed. Are the casualties guilty of anything or are they innocent. It seems it doesn’t matter. The horror of violent death will be explained away as collateral damage presented to the public with wise nodding and pseudo sorrow. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE SHAMEFUL.

  • CrazyParrot

    The UK is not a ‘Global Police Force’ and we can’t afford to act like one. I’m very glad that we didn’t get sucked in to another foreign conflict, we still haven’t managed to bring all our troops back from the last one (that we got conned into) yet. It all costs an eye-watering amount of money (that we haven’t got) and means that we can’t afford to equip our forces properly and that we are spread too thin and not properly defended at home.

    The MPs who voted the intervention down did the right thing, and people like Paddy Ashdown who are whining about it are living in cloud-cuckoo land; we are already over £1 trillion in debt.

  • Will Rees

    Haven’t seen any articles in UK critical of the hospital pass Obama gave in order to be able to Sweden on Tuesday. Both Cameron and Millband’s handling of this have been embarrassing for different reasons, but I for one am glad we are not riding shotgun for someone trying to fit a war in among his travel arrangements. The potential powder keg, and the UN weapons inspectors literally risking their lives deserved more respect than that (and possibly the UK politicians dragged back early).

    Presumably Cameron budgeted how many million pound missiles we could afford to fire into Syria. Good knows where he found the money, but having due it out of the sofa,now we aren’t spending it on fireworks, can we spend it on the refugees.

  • FrankS

    Which of the various factions in the Syrian civil war do Aaronovitch, Gove, etc, wish to side with?

  • FrankS

    Parliament voted not to rush impetuously to war, with consequences unknown and unconsidered, probably hurting the very people were supposed to helping, and strengthening the hand of rebel militias who are no friends of ours. Oh, the shame of it!

    • Adrian Wainer

      ” Parliament voted not to rush impetuously to war, with consequences unknown and unconsidered, probably hurting the very people were supposed to helping, and strengthening the hand of rebel militias who are no friends of ours. Oh, the shame of it! “,.
      FrankS

      If St. Gloriana Girls Academy are looking for a military strategy adviser and if you are interested I know who to recommend. Well done Sir.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYBDtUhHh_0

      • FairBobby

        Indiscriminate killing rarely solves anything but sows the seeds of hatred for years ahead.
        For me, the killing of millions by Germany in two world wars cannot be ignored or forgotten. They are not yet absolved of blame despite the passage of time.

  • Subopottsboyle

    It may well be a day of shame for Paddy. But we are living the legacy of our military and imperial past today. Terrorism and racial unrest is rife around the world and on the streets of England. Old men’s memories stir up the violent passions of youth as stories of the past are told and distorted. Better to walk with our heads down than to be carried horizontally in a box.

  • Nick

    For once,just for once our politicians have made a good decision by not attacking Syria.And now the hypocrites are crying like spoilt children.
    How would the same people have reacted if Cameron had been complicit in attacking Assads regime as planned? And following the strike,the Syrians launched a chemical attack on say Israel for example and 3000 people died?
    The likes of Paddy Ashdown and co would be up in arms screaming,’I told you not to bomb Syria’.
    The lack of common sense in the likes of Ashdown amazes me as his like are running the country.
    I’m no fan of Cameron but for once he has made a good decision,even though it was forced on him,he has made a good decision in not attacking Syria.
    And all this claptrap about Britain losing it’s position in the world……What a load of over reactionary tosh?
    People will probably respect us more for not wanting to get involved in the dumb idea of bombing the Syrians for no good reason and where the outcome was so unpredictable.

    • Adrian Wainer

      ” For once,just for once our politicians have made a good decision by not attacking Syria.And now the hypocrites are crying like spoilt children.How would the same people have reacted if Cameron had been complicit in attacking Assads regime as planned? And following the strike,the Syrians launched a chemical attack on say Israel for example and 3000 people died?
      The likes of Paddy Ashdown and co would be up in arms screaming,’I told you not to bomb Syria’.
      The lack of common sense in the likes of Ashdown amazes me as his like are running the country.
      I’m no fan of Cameron but for once he has made a good decision,even though it was forced on him,he has made a good decision in not attacking Syria.
      And all this claptrap about Britain losing it’s position in the world……What a load of over reactionary tosh?
      People will probably respect us more for not wanting to get involved in the dumb idea of bombing the Syrians for no good reason and where the outcome was so unpredictable. “,.
      Nick

      ” And following the strike,the Syrians launched a chemical attack on say Israel for example and 3000 people died? “,.
      Actually for many of hypocrites supporting a Western military strike on the Bashar al-Assad regime they would be glad if the regime had responded by launching a chemical attack on Israel since many of the hypocrites are rabidly antisemitic and are happy to see Jews murdered.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hBXHtQDxOo

  • Adrian Wainer

    ” As Tim Stanley suggests, maybe, for once, we should be proud. “,.
    Freddy Gray

    ” The party of Suez and the Falklands is now far more cautious, more sceptical of state power, more willing to stop and think before acting. ”
    Dr Tim Stanley

    Dr Tim Stanley is also apparently suggesting that the UK should have caved in to the Argies over the Falklands, the man is likely a scumbag or an idiot but he does not have to worry about me criticizing his articles as the moderators have kicked me off the Telegraph site.

    Gotcha
    http://i1.dailyrecord.co.uk/incoming/article1124602.ece/ALTERNATES/s2197/image-1-240854476-1124602.jpg

  • Keith D

    To David Aaronovitch.Nobody gives a fuck what this means to you.

  • Adrian Wainer

    I am more interested in not having the British military used as mercenaries to fight in an Muslim civil war on the side of the Saudi Wahhabis and extremist Sunnis against the disgusting Bashar al Assad regime in Syria on the instructions of an Islamist fellow traveler, Saudi gofer and Obama poodle in the person of David Cameron who if Britain was being run on conservative principles should find it difficult to get security clearance if seeking a position of a toilet cleaner in 10 Downing Street never mind occupying the position of Prime Minister than David Aaronovitch might be getting his knickers in a twist, pity about him.

  • sarahsmith232

    this is all such laughable claptrap. just watched Obama state of the union address where he came out with all that rubbish about ‘we are unwavering and resolute in our commitment to always be Israel’s big, bad protector bully. . ‘type statement. I’ve been shown the pic’s of the after effects of Israel’s use of white phosphorous shells of the most densely populated place on earth, Gaza. if you think what Assad’s done is bad, then you don’t want to know what happens to a populace trapped in a small, confined and densely populated area when bombed with that stuff. then there’s the constant ‘killing of the innocents’ drone attacks, Obama’s got more of that done than Bush.
    so what have these people got to say about all of that then? ‘well, there’s a difference. . . er. . . these are all people that we don’t like very much’.

    • Adrian Wainer

      ” this is all such laughable claptrap. just watched Obama state of the union address where he came out with all that rubbish about ‘we are unwavering and resolute in our commitment to always be Israel’s big, bad protector bully. . ‘type statement. I’ve been shown the pic’s of the after effects of Israel’s use of white phosphorous shells on the most densely populated place on earth, Gaza. if you think what Assad’s done is bad, then you don’t want to know what happens to a populace trapped in a small, confined and densely populated area when bombed with that stuff. then there’s the constant ‘killing of the innocents’ drone attacks, Obama’s got more of that done than Bush. so what have these Journalists got to say about all of that then? ‘well, there’s a difference. . . er. . . these are all people that we don’t like very much’. “,.

      sarahsmith232

      Go and wear your gay rights rainbow miniskirt with a matching gay rights t-shirt in Gaza and see what happens.

    • Trofim

      “Israel’s use of white phosphorous shells on the most densely populated place on earth, Gaza”. Actually, I think you’ll find 187 Bromyard Road, Worcester is more densely populated, but if it’s a problem, have the Gazans ever thought of making fewer babies? Can a woman get contraceptives in Gaza? – without her old man’s permission?

  • Gawain

    A nasty, rather trite piece. I agree that using terms like being “ashamed” of your country is hyperbole but normal human beings use emotional language when they are upset. In my view the vote yesterday will be taken as a “thumbs up” by global terrorists and we very much did turn our backs on the international community (just look at all of the “none of our business” cries on this blog. Finally, your call for people to go and fight in Syria if they feel strongly is verging on the irresponsible. Vigilante, soccer terrace attitudes are exactly why Syria is in the mess it is.

  • edlancey

    Aaronvitch is hopelessly over-rated.

  • Mr Creosote

    Who are the cheese-eating surrender-monkeys now?

    • Adrian Wainer

      ” Who are the cheese-eating surrender-monkeys now? “,.
      Mr Creosote

      Does Cameron eat cheese, I would have thought it a bit too common for his sort of person ?

  • Mombasa69

    Last night’s vote has resulted in the UK looking weak in the eyes of China and Russia, it’s a cruel world out there, show weakness and you pay the price. As will Miliband and Cameron for their total incompetence.

    • Wessex Man

      Well personally I don’t really care if they think we are weak or not, just as long as they don’t think we are the world’s policeman!

      • Adrian Wainer

        ” Well personally I don’t really care if they think we are weak or not, just as long as they don’t think we are the world’s policeman! “,.
        Wessex Man

        ” I don’t really care if they think we are weak “,.
        Do you think Adolf Hitler and Stalin would have attacked Poland in 1939 if Winston Churchill had been elected UK Prime Minister in the early 1930s and he was still in office in 1939 and there were substantial numbers of Polish Air Force Rolls Royce Griffon engined contra prop Supermarine Spitfires flying combat air patrols in defense of Polish air space ?

        http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/ad140/spiderman_P51/PRUSpit.jpg

    • Adrian Wainer

      ” Last night’s vote has resulted in the UK looking weak in the eyes of China and Russia, it’s a cruel world out there, show weakness and you pay the price. As will Miliband and Cameron for their total incompetence. “,.
      Mombasa69

      And would you have argued in 1939 that Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain showed weakness by not supporting the Third Reich’s and the USSR’s attack on Poland ?

  • TenPillocksInARoom

    A nasty little article, but probably quite close to the mark.

  • Augustus

    History tells us not to do it. Most citizens of America and the West say don’t do it. But Pantsdown & Co. say they must punish the Syrian dictator’s homicidal regime with a military strike – and know for certain that history and the people are wrong. And what would a few missiles achieve? Nothing! Will it show Assad that the West is willing to put boots on the ground under the present incumbent in the White House? Give me a break. There are no good guys in this conflict and the best option is to stay well out of the way.

    • starfish

      What would have been targeted?
      The CW stockpiles? I doubt we know where they are and it would be difficult to neutralise them with TLAM.. most are probably artillery shells.
      Regime C 2? That does the islamicist nutters’ work for them
      Delivery systems? Most are artillery and would take a significant air campaign
      Regime air defence? That would be hazardous, be seen as a precursor to further activity and the russians wouod replace any losses
      So in sum poor strategy

      • Augustus

        An important point to consider is that if Assad feels his regime is nearing its end due to aerial bombardment his propensity to continue to use chemical weapons will most likely increase. And all because of an exercise in muscle-flexing?

        • Adrian Wainer

          ” An important point to consider is that if Assad feels his regime is nearing its end due to aerial bombardment his propensity to continue to use chemical weapons will most likely increase. And all because of an exercise in muscle-flexing? “,.
          Augustus

          I note you use of the word ” continue ” has it been proven that the Bashar al Assad regime has used chemical weapons ?

  • kyalami

    If we should be intervening militarily in Syria, then why not in Zimbabwe? North Korea? and so on. We can’t be the world’s policeman.

    • Adrian Wainer

      ” If we should be intervening militarily in Syria, then why not in Zimbabwe? North Korea? and so on. We can’t be the world’s policeman. “,.
      kyalami

      Not even the US with its huge military could effectively be the World’s policeman the resource implications of trying to occupy such a role are staggering. That does not mean that it is not legitimate for the UK to engage in selective foreign military operations. The problem with the proposed UK military operation in Syria was that it was being conducted by Cameron as a gofer for his Saudi masters and in Cameron’s capacity as President Barack Obama’s poodle with President Obama being a Muslim and more importantly being an Islamist. The proposed UK military operation in Syria did not serve UK national security interests and it did not serve humanitarian interests it was HM Armed Forces being hijacked to act as mercenaries for the cause of Islamism.

      • kyalami

        Calm down, dear.

        • Adrian Wainer

          ” Calm down, dear. “,.
          kyalami

          Are you having a problem with a gerbil ?

          • kyalami

            Well I would never have called you a gerbil. But you do give the impression of having indulged in wacky baccy.

            • Adrian Wainer

              ” Well I would never have called you a gerbil. But you do give the impression of having indulged in wacky baccy. “,.

              Well I might have had the pleasure of engaging in jiggy jiggy with an Algerian girlfriend but as for wacky baccy I have never been able to work out what folks see in it. Anyway have a nice day bro.

              Oum Koulthoum – Inta omri remix (ام كلثوم – إنت عمري)
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUMMLdAHIvI

      • Nick

        Very accurate Adrian…..Well said.

  • david trant

    Hmm so Tim Shipman is glad to be in Socialist France, an unusual stance for someone who works for the Mail.

  • david kirkup

    they can sack the squaddies sending them off with their p45s, but wait we will take you back we want to join another war.

    • Colonel Mustard

      “O it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ ” Tommy, go away ” ;
      But it’s ” Thank you, Mister Atkins,” when the band begins to play.

      “Then it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an` Tommy, ‘ow’s yer soul? ”
      But it’s ” Thin red line of ‘eroes ” when the drums begin to roll

      “For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! ”
      But it’s ” Saviour of ‘is country ” when the guns begin to shoot;”

      • colliemum

        Pity that Kipling’s poems aren’t being taught in school any longer. There are a few (like the one you quoted from) which might help our politicians and hacks in the way they see and treat us. ‘The Beginnings’ comes to mind …

        • Airey Belvoir

          How about:

          The dog returns to its vomit, the sow returns to its mire, and the burnt fool’s bandaged finger goes wobbling back to the fire.

          • colliemum

            Definitely! Another great one, still applicable today.

  • Alex

    Yeah, let’s not wait to find out what the facts are; let’s go blow some stuff up just so the country can feel good about itself.

    Have I been transported to the U.S. without noticing?

    • george

      Hey, don’t slander my country. Thanks.

      • Alex

        Sorry, no offence intended. I love the U.S.
        I just think it can be a little over-eager in using force, sometimes.

        • george

          Oh yes, like when?

          • Alex

            Well now, on this issue, for one. I think we should all take some time to check the facts and get an international consensus. There’s nothing we can do now that we can’t do in a month’s time.
            And I’m not keen on the drone strikes in Pakistan; I fear they create as many terrorists as they kill.

  • James Strong

    What sort of person can so quickly become ‘ashamed’ of his country, or ‘depressed’ because Parliament didn’t vote the way he wanted?
    Perhaps the country should be ashamed and depressed by their self-regarding arrogance.

    So F*** You: Aaaronovitch, Shipman, Ashdown, Gove, Vine and all your mates who are ‘ashamed’ that we are staying out of Syria’s mess and avoiding exposing our Armed Forces to unnecessary war.
    And F*** you anyone who says, ‘It’s only missile strikes, it’s not our forces engaging the enemy in any other way.’
    F*** you; you have no idea how it would have escalated.

    • Sue Ward

      You make some great posts James. I would follow you but disqus won’t let me!

      • Wessex Man

        Yes I saw Ashdown as well, I also saw him in person at the last general election, so all I can say to you James Strong, is why are you being so kind to this pompous, stupid, boorish old bloke!

  • Mr Grumpy

    A richly deserved poke in the eye for the armchair generals of the media aristocracy. Bravo.

  • James Strong

    Paddy Ashdown was on the Today programme just before 9.00am.
    He asked what he I think he called a rhetorical question,’What are our Armed Forces for?
    Well, that’s one of the easiest questions I’ll ever have to answer.
    They are to defend the United Kingdom and UK interests.
    They most assuredly and emphatically are NOT for the purpose of getting us involved in other people’s messes, nor to allow politicians to posture and demonstrate how tough they are, nor to attempt to maintain any fanciful notion of maintaining ‘Britain’s place on the world stage.’
    If the UK commits acts of war then you can expect UK service personnel to be killed and maimed.
    These are men and women who are so far superior to the vast majority of politicians, nearly all of whom take no physical risk at all as a result of their decisions, that the vast majority of politicians should feel honoured even to be in the same room as them.

    • DavidL

      James Strong. I wish I’d said that. I heard the Pantsdown interview, and had the same reaction as you.

    • Ian Walker

      While I agree with the vast majority of your post, the last bit is a bit unfair to level at Paddy Ashdown, ex-Royal Marines and SBS

      • James Strong

        Yes, and there used to be a number of MPs who had won the Military Cross, which is not awarded lightly.
        So I carefully wrote about the vast majority of politicians.
        As for Ashdown, whatever he was in his earlier career, he has now become a rather pompous and posturing self-regarding and self-appointed ‘elder statesman’, and he opened himself up for attack by putting forward his own ‘rhetorical’ question.
        A rhetorical question is supposed to be one that does not require an answer,so maybe Ashdown thought his question would go unanswered, but I stand by the answer I have provided.

    • John Lea

      Did you hear him in the Lords yesterday, outlining his principal reason for supporting intervention in Syria? This time, he said, we would be following Obama’s agenda and not George W Bush’s. Awe-inspiting stuff eh? Such a detailed and persuasive argument, don’t you think? Thank God he never held high office.

      • Steve Clark

        Why do people think Obama’s agenda is so different from Bush’s they are both only figureheads to powerful and wealthy advisors. You don’t honestly think they come up with all these speeches themselves do you Paddy?

        • isthisreallife2

          Correct. Looking at Obamas record so far he has promoted many of the people who worked in the Bush administration eg. Timothy Geithner. Obama has taken a very soft on corporate America(especially the banks).

          Why would anyone think that Obamas agenda wouldnt be similar to Bush in allowing the military industrial complex to grow and suck more and more money from American taxpayers in a state give away bonanza to defence contractors. Ashdown is missing the point when he talks about damage to the “special relationship”. The real damage here is to the relationship between state and the military industrial complex and this is a very very good thing. Big corporations whether its in finance, defence or pharmaceauticals need to be broken up. They are much much too powerful and are able to dictate policy to our governments.

  • yarnesfromhorsham

    You also get the impression that the politicians would sooner be on the world stage than dealing with the many problems faced within the UK

    • Tim Reed

      I think that’s the primary urge here – that Blairite desire to be a world statesman, rather than just a parochial national leader.

      …at the expense of others, whom they will never meet, and whose suffering they will never witness.

  • yarnesfromhorsham

    In a nut shell

  • Christian

    Great piece. I love watching effete middle class tough guys beating their chest for war, most of whom will never even have had a fist fight. I’ve long believed these heroes should be given a free assault rifle and ticket to their tragedy of choice. Then they can show us their commitment to their cause rather than their willingness to fight to the last working class kid as usual.

    • John Lea

      Can you imagine either of the Millibands having a punch-up? Hilarious! Would be utterly wet and gay, like that scene in Bridget Jones. And Clegg – he’d be crap as well. And what about wee Gove – couldn’t knock the head off a pint of lager I reckon. Now Eric Joyce is another matter. Would love to see him have a ‘square-go’ (as we say in Glasgow) with Harriet Harman. It would be close, but my money would be on Joycey to win on point.

      • Noa

        Eric Joyce would beat most MPs on pints.

  • asalord

    It will only embolden a huffy Cameron to be more aggressive when the next opportunity for intervention appears.

  • Hexhamgeezer

    Nice to see that Parliament for once didn’t have an inflated sense of Britain’s importance. Nice to give other states the chance to demonstrate their concern should they so desire. Nice to see the BBC’s nose so out of joint with the vote and nice to see that buffoon Paddy Pantsdown bewailing the fact that this gives succour to UKIP. Apparently he is worried about ‘isolationism’.

    This translates as less cosy jobs for deadwood like himself.

    • 2trueblue

      Oh yes they did. They thought that they would let us the public see that they were not going to stand for another dodgy decision, that is all. Most of them are still the same lot who sat in the most corrupt parliament over 13yrs and whose government took us into the Iraq war on the dodgy dossier.
      Camerons mistake was in not waiting for more information and in disturbing their hols. Wait and see.

      • Hexhamgeezer

        Many Tories hate the man and many others looked at their majorities and just did the maths and that won’t change on this issue whatever time of year it is.

        • 2trueblue

          Many is not the same as the majority. There were many who hated Blair, Brown and others. So what?

          • Hexhamgeezer

            I wasn’t claiming they were the majority but they made the difference.

  • mrpage

    That’s not quite right is it? Cameron has accepted that this rules out British military intervention in Syria. That’s not a “narrow defeat”, and it is not merely a slowing down of the process.

  • Noa

    Aaronovitch and Shipman can both go and enrol for the good fight at their local jihadi centre if they really want to demonstrate the strength of their convictions.
    Homicidal last droppers both.

    • Makroon

      We have long been plagued with the hand-wringers of the left – now we have a new phenomenon, the hand wringers of the belicose tendency.Reply

  • William Reid Boyd

    “If these people are really so desperate to stop Assad, they can always
    do what some young British Muslims have done — go and join the fight.”

    And many more will now.

    • Hexhamgeezer

      Good, and with luck a good few won’t come back.

      • William Reid Boyd

        But a few will, and there’s the problem.

        • Hexhamgeezer

          Which it is possible to deal with especially if the bubbleistas get out of the way.

          • William Reid Boyd

            I only know of “bubbleistsa” from the bond market and I don’t understand your point.

            The Iraq war radicalised a portion of our disaffected Muslim youth and we haven’t found it easy to deal with. An appalling massacre on our Tube system in 2005 is testimony to that, and there have been other attempts of the same sort thwarted only with difficulty.

            This will also radicalise a section of them, and this time not just the disaffected amongst them but also decent young men (and women) who might well feel this is the only gesture left to them.

            And when they return it likewise won’t be easy to deal with the battle-scarred remnant trained and expert in gueriila and urban warfare: indeed may not be “possible”. The same callous indifference you express about the fate of the people of Syria will be visited on us.

            Eat your heart out, bubbleman.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          Not really.

          After they’re organized and transported over, just tell Assad who and where and when they’ll be arriving in Syria.

          Problem solved.

        • Andy

          If they are so keen to go we can revoke their citizenship. And actually would do this – anyone found to be fighting there is no longer a British Citizen. Have a nice death.

      • Keith D

        Hopefully none.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      …maybe some of that foreign aid budget should be devoted to organizing and transporting them over there.

  • Pootles

    There are several things to note: the evidence is that, yet again, the British people do not want to see UK armed forces attacking countries that are not a threat to us; Parliament has, for a very welcome change, actually reflected the views of the overwhelming majority of the people; and, to his credit, Cameron put the question to Parliament, and has accepted its verdict. Whatever happens in Syria, there will be no victory for any form of parliamentary democracy, but what happened yesterday at Westminster was a victory for parliamentary democracy in the UK.

    • 2trueblue

      If you believe that this is the result of MPs thinking this is what the public want then you have garnered little of what MPs are about. They did it to let Cameron know that he should not have recalled parliament and rushed it, rather than waiting for the full report on the situation. This is all about posturing and nothing to do with integrity of our MPs.
      Cameron was daft to rush it, but he will survive this. The last government ran the most corrupt parliament in our time for 13yrs and MPs think that this will display to the public that they care what we think, and that this gesture will make us believe they have changed. :ook at them and tell me if there are any there that you would trust. There is no one else at present. that is our tragedy.

      • Pootles

        You may well be right. But, on the other hand, the key votes – the 30 on the government’s side – were only just enough. So, perhaps we can allow the 30 some integrity.

        • 2trueblue

          The fact that they voted against the government does not automatically credit anyone with integrity, simply a difference of opinion. They stood by that opinion.

      • Makroon

        Utter nonsense.
        Iraq wasn’t about “weapons of mass destruction”, it was about regime change and the NeoCons having a canvas to try out their naive, loony-toons ideas. Ask Wolfowitz – he at least had the grace to admit (like McNamara before him), that that huge cost in lives and treasure was “misconceived”.
        This Syrian adventure is likewise, not about a single chemical weapons outrage – it’s about a proxy attack on the “Shiite nexus” (Iran/Syria/Hezbollah). Iran now has a new “moderate” CEO who has stopped the crazy, provocative ranting of Ahmedenejad – no wonder the itchy-trigger-finger brigade in “the west” and Israel are feeling frustrated that war with Iran is looking less likely.
        Now they think they have found a casus belli.

        • 2trueblue

          I think we know that. Blair had his agenda, that was what Iraq was about, looking for glory.

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