Coffee House

Could there be a second UK vote on Syria?

31 August 2013

8:01 PM

31 August 2013

8:01 PM

After the special relationship was found still breathing this afternoon, is there a chance UK involvement in Syria action might have life in it yet? If Congress does not debate and vote on action until 9 September, there is time for the UN weapons inspectors to report and the UN Security Council to vote. This assumes Congress does approve action (and Obama said he was confident he would get the support, hopefully based on better intelligence than that which led Cameron to be equally confident at the start of this week). But if all of those conditions are met, would the Labour party support action? If they would – and it would be foolish for Cameron to return to the Commons without absolute certainty of Miliband’s support – then the Commons could plausibly see another vote on whether the UK should be involved in the international response to the chemical attacks.

It is worth noting the wording of Ed Miliband’s point of order in the Commons on Thursday night once the defeat had been announced:

‘On a point of order, Mr Speaker. There having been no motion passed by this House tonight, will the Prime Minister confirm to the House that, given the will of the House that has been expressed tonight, he will not use the royal prerogative to order the UK to be part of military action before there has been another vote in the House of Commons?’

Cameron won’t return to Parliament unless he is sure of victory on this issue. But Miliband hasn’t ruled out another vote either: it was Cameron who said that while no motion had been passed, he understood that Parliament did not back action – which was a reasonable assumption based on the speeches that day, which were more about the principle of intervention than the motion itself. If there was another vote, Labour would have to be make the public declaration of its position on intervention that Miliband seems to fear so much.

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Show comments
  • Pickwick

    The overwhelming majority peoples’ will -upto 80% are against military action- has been expressed through their representatives in a Parliamentary vote on this issue there should be no attempt to do an EU on the nation by continuing to vote on the same subject until the authorities achieve the vote they want rather than that of the people – let us ensure the rest of the world are in no doubt we live in a democracy by respecting the will of the people as expressed in that vote.

  • Bonkim

    Yes!

  • Mynydd

    ” Labour would have to be make the public declaration of its position on intervention that Miliband seems to fear so much”

    This seems to be just a meaningless anti-Miliband comment for the sake of being anti-Miliband. What has he to fear? he as already said there could be another vote

    Mr Miliband made a public declaration of Labour’s position in his speech last Thursday. In it he laid down a 5 point roadmap to be followed before making a decision to take military action against Assad. If there was a positive out come to the 5 points he would recommend military action. As recorded above, when the votes where lost he got to his feet and said:

    ‘On a point of order, Mr Speaker. There having been no motion passed by this House tonight, will the Prime Minister confirm to the House that, given the will of the House that has been expressed tonight, he will not use the royal prerogative to order the UK to be part of military action before there has been another vote in the House of Commons?’

    This means that if the situation changes he his quite prepared to have another debate and vote. The result of which he could well recommend military action.

    However in response to the point of order Mr Cameron immediately ruled out a second debate and any military intervention. The full meaning of this must be understood, no matter how many chemical attacks, by Assad or by the rebels, Mr Cameron will stand-by and do nothing, not even hold a debate and vote.

  • manonthebus

    Ed Miliband and Douglas Alexander have left the door slightly ajar for another vote. However, David Cameron would be well advised to pull it shut again. Any attempt by him to force another vote (a typical EU tactic of ‘vote again until you get it right’) will result (IMHO) in him becoming an ex-leader of the Conservative Party, either at the hands of Party members at the time or courtesy of voters in 2015.

  • timinsingapore

    Long-term I don’t think Cameron will be particularly damaged by this. The result was broadly in line with public sentiment. On the other hand, Milliband’s wriggling, his lack of clarity, his lack of gravitas as a parliamentary statesman, will not bolster his standing as a potential prime minister.

    And when you read the motion, the terms that Milliband voted against, it’s hard to work out what was in his mind.

  • sunnydayrider

    Dave taking the word of a man who kebbabed his own brother was a crasse error of judgement. Accepting it again would be bordering on the certifiable.

    • Abhay

      Don’t feel too sorry for the ‘kebbabed’ brother. He has left for NY where he earns a tax free 7 figure annual salary with other perks. He will be fine. Save your tears.

  • evad666

    There must be no second vote on involvement in Syria let the preening arrogant Marxists squirm.

  • Adrian Wainer

    ” After the special relationship was found still breathing this afternoon, is there a chance UK involvement in Syria action might have life in it yet? “,.

    By the apparent nature of what Isabel Hardman claims to be ” the special relationship ” Britain was betraying its bond with Germany by not supporting Adolf Hitler and the NSDAP in having declared War on the Third Reich in 1939. Special relationships between countries Ms Hardman are not based on unquestioning moronic support of a kindred state’s leader’s and Government’s policies no matter how idiotic or morally repugnant they are, they are based on common shared legitimate values and common shared culture and history and that is why the RAF was bombing German cities in 1944 and in the Berlin Airlift of 1948 and 1949 RAF pilots were risking their lives to see the people of Berlin were fed, clothed, supplied with medecines and kept warm. Obama is an individual who was elected as 44th US President, he is not the United States of America anymore than Hitler was Germany because he was elected to the office of Chancellor.

    Berlin Wall 1961 – 1989
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v

  • Adrian Wainer

    Cameron will probably be forced to hand back his, Number 1 UK Dhimmi, sash to his Saudi mack daddy if he doesn’t get the UK Military to fire off cruise missiles at Syria which probably means he will be back again to Parliament trying to deceive, blackmail, bribe and threaten MPs for a yes vote

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02390/david_2390425b.jpg

  • Mark_ld

    Red Ed, Weak Ed, Shifty Ed,

  • Kennybhoy

    To David Lindsay,

    If you have not have seen my various comments below then please do read this.

    Get away from the computer. Think about what you have written below. Contact a priest and make confession as quickly as humanly possible man. Please. Do it now , this very minute. None of us knows how long we have. If for some reason you cannot do this then please think about the foul and sinful things that you have written here tonight and make a sincere, unequivocal Act of Contrition. Then see a priest in the morning before Mass. Please. I am praying for you.

    • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

      Well said. I suspect he has been up drinking strong wine, is alone and bitter, but enjoying the polemic. In the morning he will presumably realise what a fool he has made of himself.

      How has kennybhoy’s comment this got 3 down votes? I presume David Lindsay, David Lindsay signed out and David Lindsay signed out but on another device.

      • starfish

        I must admit I am shocked. This level of personal abuse is far beyond the normal rough and tumble on these threads that we enjoy.
        While David should pause and reflect on what he has written I think there are other contributors who should examine their consciences and moderate the intensity of their postings

  • Adrian Wainer
  • Nick

    We’ve had a good bit of democracy in the form of that vote but the essence of that democratic decision would be poisoned if there is another vote.
    And the upcoming witch hunt of those MPs who voted or abstained from voting is disgusting.

    • Alexsandr

      yes the disgustin nadim zahawi voted to go to war. He is as poor an MP as his predecessor, Profumo.
      Syria is not our problem. We should butt out.

  • Austin Barry

    Arghhhhhhhh.

    No, please no.

    Is this the way the EU referendum will go? Vote after vote until the right answer appears?

    Probably, yes. The Plebs must be refined and tutored until they come up with the right answer.

    • Daniel Maris

      Yep, it’s the single transferable referendum.

  • Andy

    This is a dead duck. If I was Cameron I would now stick this to Miliband and the scumbag Labour Party. I wouldn’t bring forward a motion and if he does I would do everything possible to derail it. And I would remind the British People at every turn, when the clamour of ‘something must be done’ swells, that it was the Labour Party who, sucking up to a fellow Socialist tyrant would support anything being done.

    Cameron could also turn off the humanitarian cash tap too. After all there is no problem in Syria which needs our attention.

    • Don Logan

      My immediate reaction to last Thursday was Miliband had shot his load a bit too early, I suspect he’s going to look a right tool before this plays out.

    • Adrian Wainer

      ” This is a dead duck. If I was Cameron I would now stick this to Miliband and the scumbag Labour Party. I wouldn’t bring forward a motion and if he does I would do everything possible to derail it. And I would remind the British People at every turn, when the clamour of ‘something must be done’ swells, that it was the Labour Party who, sucking up to a fellow Socialist tyrant wouldn’t support anything being done.

      Cameron could also turn off the humanitarian cash tap too. After all there is no problem in Syria which needs our attention. “,.
      Andy

      Millipede is thrash and the Labour Party is a scumbag operation but that hardly excuses the issue that Cameron isn’t a Conservative and what he actually is, is a turbo-Capitalist with a leftist policy orientation who is trying to hijack HM Armed Forces to act as mercenaries in Syria on behalf his Saudi masters and the proposed cruise missile strike on Syria is diametrically oppositional to both humanitarian and UK national security obligations.

  • http://www.facebook.com/steven.efstathiou Steven Efstathiou

    Jeezus – did I really hear Jeremy Bowen just say on the BBC that Assad may be viewed as an ‘Arab Hero’ for, apparently, staring down our chum Obama?

    Raining poison gas down on your people is such last-week’s news…

    • realfish

      And the BBC has been raining poison down from its transmitters for many years. Time for a surgical strike of sorts on New Broadcasting House

      • Alexsandr

        esp the trecherous Bowen.

  • Bert

    Miliband = gassed and burnt children. Appeaser

    • telemachus

      You have insight into the Inspectors report already
      I am impressed

      • Andy

        The inspectors will only confirm that Chemical Weapons have been used. Who used them is not part of their terms of reference.

        And we all know that Miliband supports Socialist/Fascist tyrants who murder children. Twas ever thus.

      • Alexsandr

        but they wont say by whom. And there is already doubt it was the Assas regime.

    • Guest

      This reminds me of the “raped nuns” of Belgium. Sentimental nonsense that ended with 20 million dead and four dismantled empires.

      • Noa

        No sentimental nonsense but reality.

        “… it was German military policy to use civilians as human shields in combat, to burn villages in collective reprisal for resistance, and to shoot local irregulars who were caught bearing arms. Between August and October 1914 well over 6,000 civilians were deliberately killed by German troops in Belgium and France, and a further 23,000 were forcibly deported to German prison camps. Had Russia, France and Britain not resisted in 1914, therefore, there is good reason to suppose that Germany would have dominated western and eastern Europe in such a rapacious and ruthless manner as to have stoked widespread resentment among its newly subject peoples and high alarm among the newly menaced British…”

        http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/5143/full

      • Kennybhoy

        Noa beat me to the punch here. Suffice to say Maister Guest that whatever you have been reading in the way of history is well out of date.

  • colliemum

    From what I read, Obama’s confidence getting the approval of Congress is misplaced. Americans in their majority do not want a military engagement, and they are very good at making their opinion known to their Representatives (who all face elections next year) and Senators (1/3 of whom also face elections next year).
    Unless there is far better evidence that the lot presented so far by Kerry (and Cameron), evidence which is factually convincing, then Congress will not approve.

    Btw, Obama knows full well that the House (GOP majority) holds the purse strings and that there have already been talks about defunding a military intervention in Syria should Obama not get the agreement from Congress.

    • AnotherDaveB

      I don’t think Mr Obama is confident of getting congressional approval. I think he’s hoping they’ll say no, and give him a face-saving excuse to back down.

    • Venk Shenoi

      Foreign policy is low down priority for most Americans and many don’t know/don’t care. Obama may week come up tops – this is a challenge to the Republicans and not many would want to see the US back down – eating humble pie from the Arabs not in their books.

      • Alexsandr

        well they have history. They didn’t want to get involved in WW1 or WW2. The called it isolationism and

        non-interventionism

  • David Lindsay

    Give it up. We are not going into this war. Thank Ed Miliband and all of 30 Tory MPs, the latter not even one in 20 of the whole House and vastly fewer in number than were the Labour rebels over Iraq.

    Even Dame Margaret Beckett, Chris Bryant, Dai Havard, Jim Murphy, Gisela Stuart and Derek Twigg voted against this war, despite continuing to be listed as members of the Political Council of the Henry Jackson Society. As, indeed, did the Conservatives David Amess, David Davis and Julian Lewis, and the Liberal Democrat Dan Rogerson.

    Boiled down, the “hard-headed multilateralism” that Miliband espouses in today’s Guardian means that, other than as a direct act of self-defence (wildly improbable over the Falkland Islands, even less likely than that over Gibraltar, not even suggested in any other case), he would never permit British military action without at least the approval of all four of the other Permanent Members of the United Nations Security Council.

    And that will never happen. The Security Council is specifically designed in order to ensure that that can never happen. Miliband can make ritual references to Libya and to the ancient history of Kosovo, but on his own propagated doctrine, Britain would have had no part in either of them.

    Indeed, we are not even restricting ourselves to the countries that were given Permanent Seats in the 1940s. We are really also including anywhere that would be given one if the thing were being started from scratch at the given time. Germany, say. Or India. At the very least, we must be talking about all of the other members of the G20.

    It need not end there, either.

    All in all, Miliband has declared for an isolationist, strictly self-defensive foreign and security policy while bowing reverently to the UN. There is a reasonable argument to be made that that is more faithful to the original intention of the UN than anyone in a comparable position has ever articulated. A Prime Minister of the United Kingdom who took that view could have a very dramatic impact indeed on geopolitical affairs.

    In this, Miliband has the full support of his party. And of the country.

    • anyfool

      Do you really believe this twaddle, do you really think Miliband would last 5 minutes as leader if he tried to do what you suggest that he would give a veto over our affairs to the likes of Russia, China, India Turkey and Mexico.
      You need to ask Tele for some of his meds, he sounds more sane than you now.

      • David Lindsay

        Always good to hear from the losers.

        The whole point, which your sort just cannot grasp, is that these things are not “our affairs”. Miliband is brilliantly proposing a system whereby we could do what we ought to have been doing anyway, and just stay out of them, while still at least appearing to be internationalistic. It really is very clever. And wildly popular.

        • anyfool

          Do you think that the grasping people at the top in politics would give up any powers or sinecures, that is why they are there, they are not there because of principals, they do not give a hoot about others especially your lot, Labour are without any redeeming features, why do you think you have never ascended higher than parish councillor.

          • David Lindsay

            I have never sought to. I have never contested an election above that level. And I have never lost one at that level.

        • Colonel Mustard

          I think we can just about grasp your megalomania, your hubris and your premature triumphalism.

          • Abhay

            Triumphalism and mendacity. Combining to propel him to think as if the the Labour are going through some great ideological churn for the better. It is the same leftie delusion of thinking that history ‘has’ to be a forward march (progress), even at the cost of self-delusion.

    • the viceroy’s gin

      I skipped most of that, lad, but skimmed enough to know that it came out of your fertile imagination.

      There has been no sudden Millipedal changeover in foreign policy here, ya’ muppet.

      And just to remind you, your Millipedal heroes voted about unanimously to bomb Libya a short while ago. Oooooops.

      I guess UKIP broke the Millipedal unanimity the other night.

      • David Lindsay

        You should have your liver cut out.

        • the viceroy’s gin

          If you socialist nutters have your way, it probably will be. That’s what you types do.

          • David Lindsay

            Not normally to you. You are not important. But I would insist on it in your case. And on doing it myself. A YouTube classic just waiting to be made.

            • Noa

              “You should have your liver cut out.”

              “Not normally to you. You are not important. But I would insist on it in your case. And on doing it myself. A YouTube classic just waiting to be made.”

              I have re-posted your statements for public record in the unlikely event that, when your hangover wears off tomorrow or on Monday, you will develop a sense of shame at the dark, indeed evil thoughts which you have put on display, and delete them.

              And to remind you of what you say you want to do.

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKz9w7ttpRw

              • David Lindsay

                The viceroy’s gin is not the first person whom I have ever encountered who could dish it out but not take it, and I have never had the slightest sympathy for any of them, nor will I ever have. See, for example, here – http://davidaslindsay.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/askdamian.html

                • Noa

                  YVG is detached, even amused.
                  Others weigh you by the man you show yourself to be.
                  On your evidence they will find you wanting.
                  Go to bed and sleep it off.

                • David Lindsay

                  TVG is used to being agreed with, and cannot cope with anything else. Probably beats his black staff and all that. Well, his type is not new to me.

                • Swiss Bob

                  I’d be tempted to report your death wish ramblings to the police but it’s medical help you need.

            • the viceroy’s gin

              You probably need to seek some attention, lad.

        • Kennybhoy

          Get a grip man! I am sincerely worried about you…

    • Venk Shenoi

      The only point – the UN is defunct an not many take what it does seriously.

      • David Lindsay

        But it is still there. The effect of saying “not without the other four” is to say “never”. This is a convenient way of observing internationalist niceties to isolationist effect. More than convenient, in fact. Brilliant.

        • Venk Shenoi

          Yes – I think Obama is clever – he will meet Putin next week and be able to look eyeball to eyeball and keep him guessing. Putin is lying – shifty eyes and look at his shoes when speaking on TV. US can withdraw in its shell any time; they don’t need the rest of the world.

          • David Lindsay

            No, not Obama. Miliband. Obama was merely better than the alternatives, and that was saying almost nothing. Chuck Hagel, now there is a true disappointment.

            What if it is Hillary versus Rand in 2016? What will they say on here, above and below the line? I’d be all for him against her, because he would leave the rest of us alone.

  • telemachus

    God help us, NO

    The people have spoken

    There was a collective public sigh of relief on Friday morning which will have communicated it to MP’s from left and right

    • Smithersjones2013

      Oh dear. No the people haven’t spoken. There has not been a referendum on this issue (nor does there need to be) but instead the usual tedious games of politics being played in Westminster not least by that increasingly annoying adenoidal twerp Miliband (his behaviour was particularly of the lowest sewer politics type this week). The Labour Party of Blair and Brown’s rotten government is back with avengeance.

      It’s quite possible that events might change people’s minds (what if Assad uses chemical weapons again on an even larger scale for example?) in which case shouldn’t parliament reflect the changing views of the electorate?

      There is no such thing as ‘never’ in politics only ‘not today’

      PS And before you go off on one I neither support the Government nor believe they have yet justified military intervention in Syria. However I deplore the use of chemical weapons and if Cameron could present a solid case for intervention then perhaps I would be minded to change my view. What we do not need are mindless left-wing clones closing down debate whilst millions of people are at risk of being further innocent victims of such chemical attacks.

      • telemachus

        I guess your PS puts a very similar point of view to that of Ed Miliband
        *
        This is much too important to play party politics but Ed, initially inclined to support listened to the people and decided on a course of action that led to the result that you, one of the people wanted

        • Colonel Mustard

          Milibandwagon has done nothing but play party politics in this. He comes from the same gang of treacherous scum whose only legacy to the English people has been to sow the seeds of decades of sectarian strife and violence.

          • telemachus

            chaff

            • Colonel Mustard

              Do you actually separate the wheat from the chaff at Animal Farm, Squealer, or are you too busy with your propaganda?

              • telemachus

                Those of us who care are well used to abuse by the Social Darwinists to whom Thatcherism gave some legitimacy
                Gladly we have politicians like Miliband who not only care but are also responsive to the will of the people
                I am glad that the leaders in the US stimulated by Miliband are now demonstrating such responsiveness
                Maybe Miliband has saved a great number of innocent Syrian lives

                • huktra

                  Miliband may have been correct in the end but his vacillation will have done him politically no good.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  So, Squealer, busy with propaganda after all. The use of more labels and the fantastic arrogance that only socialists “care”. Try telling that to the victims of Mid-Staffs.

                  And hypocrisy too, as you have littered these threads with the abuse of anyone who expresses dissent from the views of your cult.

                • telemachus

                  I see Cameron is running scared

                  The extent of insults aimed at Miliband, emanating from No 10 on a matter as sensitive as response to the use of chemical weapons, suggests the prime minister has personally authorised a concerted counter-attack on the Labour leader as he seeks to divert blame before the new parliamentary term, which begins on Monday, and before a meeting of G20 leaders, including President Barack Obama, in Russia on Thursday.
                  *
                  He should have listened to the people

                • Swiss Bob

                  Labour support watching children being gassed and burned.

                  How could it be otherwise given their cheering and hollering in the HoC on Thursday?

                  Sick.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  You see nothing beyond your blinkered, deluded zealotry for your cult.

                  Labour do absolutely nothing that is not contrived to secure their own advantage or the downfall of their enemies, real or imagined. And like war what are they good for? Absolutely nothing.

                • Mynydd

                  They are good for putting one up your beloved Mr Cameron.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  If you had ever bothered to pay attention you would know very well that he is not my “beloved Mr Cameron”.

                  But your comment confirms precisely what I observed about Labour. Even in government they spend most of their time engineering policy and propaganda to attack the Tories rather than to serve the country’s best interests.

                • Two Bob

                  Just like you should listen to the people on subjects like mass immigration.

                • Alexsandr

                  Millipede didnt listen to the people. His sole motivation was to try and steal a march over the tories. He has been exposed as a pointless opportunist.
                  Well he hasn’t really- he was known for it before this week

          • dalai guevara

            (response to Millibandwaggon)
            yes, agreed.
            But even you will have to admit that the impact *that* ‘gang of treacherous scum’ have had on the inept and disorganised was an eye opener.
            How on earth could *this* ‘gang of treacherous scum’ possibly represent any of our interests domestically, let alone on an international stage?

            • Colonel Mustard

              Even I? I’d be happy to concur rather than “admit” but I’m afraid you lost me in between *that* gang and *this* gang as to what it actually is that I might concur with. I prefer my fog well out to sea.

              😉

              • dalai guevara

                hahaha
                There is no ambiguity when using my fog vision infrared stealth goggles. Care for a pair?

          • Mynydd

            I am surprised you have taken up Mr Cameron’s spin about playing politics. What is wrong in saying prove your point Mr Cast Iron

            • Colonel Mustard

              I haven’t taken up any spin but Miliband does nothing but play politics as everyone can see.

              How anyone can be taken in by a charlatan who bleats about “one nation” having participated in the regime that brought us the divisive politics of devolution and the mass, uncontrolled immigration that is already leading to sectarian strife is quite beyond me.

              Which “one nation” do English students paying fees and Scots students paying none belong to? Which “one nation” does the rule of law serve when it is being packaged up to benefit one labelled identity group to the detriment of others? How much “one nation” did Miliband serve with his green policies that guarantee the old, poor and vulnerable will go cold or sink in debt this winter?

              Cameron’s spin is as nothing compared to Miliband’s outrageously duplicitous hypocrisy and dissembling.

    • anyfool

      The Labour Party has shot itself in the head, it will soon start to regret its treacherous actions, they have left themselves open to blame for every child that is murdered in the next year in that country.
      The chosen route that you wanted, shaft Cameron and let Obama carry on and rescue your specious conduct with his air strikes will now not happen.
      There will only be an intervention after a lot more children die.
      You must be proud of your party who think more of grasping power than knowing what to do with it.

      • evad666

        The Parliamentary Marxist Party under Blair set the precedent brushing widespread child prostitution rings under the carpet to avoid political embarrassment.

    • Two Bob

      Turning to god at last?

    • Noa
  • dalai guevara

    Why not listen to the response from the boss when Sebastian posed the same question on podlife?

    • dalai guevara

      …and again, the events close in on the Spectator’s readership.

  • statechaos

    Oh dear, Ed will actually have to have a position. Well, let’s all hope that it is ‘clear-eyed’.

    • realfish

      He doesn’t have to have a position. All he has to do is to ask Len for his (or, as Dan Hodges pointed out today, Andrew Murray, chair of Stop the War, who is also Len McCluskey’s chief of staff).

      • David Lindsay

        Dan Hodges? I thought he was dead.

        At the very least, he is now unemployable. He has given up his USP.

        • Colonel Mustard

          Got right up your nose, did he? He writes a lot better than you too.

          • the viceroy’s gin

            Hey, my german shorthaired pointer writes better than this guy. She knows more about politics, too.

            • David Lindsay

              Hodges? I can well believe it.

              Where did he come from, anyway? He was unheard of two years ago, when he would already have been in his forties.

              And what does he live on?

              • the viceroy’s gin

                I don’t know. I was talking about you. I just showed my dog your other post, and she’s laying on her back laughing.

                • David Lindsay

                  I hope that she dies, as I hope that you do. I find the existence of either you or Dan Hodges far more objectionable than I find any use of chemical weapons in Syria. But you need not imagine that that makes you anything special.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  …it’s good that you’re showing your true colors, lad.

                  It’s good for you, too. Your diseased brain is something you should be aware of.

                • David Lindsay

                  Colours, darling. Colours.

                  Are you still alive? That’s just rude.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Just give them a call, lad. They can help you.

                • Kennybhoy

                • Kennybhoy

                  Seriously man. As seriously as it gets…

                  It will be Sunday in a few minutes. You really do need to speak to a confessor before mass. You are in my prayers…

                • dalai guevara

                  David
                  you are looking at this from a skewed angle
                  just picture Putim

                  and think of tvg.

                  it all becomes clear.

                • Noa

                  “I hope that she dies, as I hope that you do. I find the existence of either you or Dan Hodges far more objectionable than I find any use of chemical weapons in Syria. But you need not imagine that that makes you anything special.”

                  That statement is a profoundly disturbing insight into your mind, conscience and moral values.
                  You would be better sharing such dark bestiality with your confessor or psyciatrist than the readers here.

                • realfish

                  As I said earlier…’Telling isn’t it? The totalitarian mind-set within the socialist hive demands total adherence, or the silencing of those who choose not to conform’

                  Whether it be Stalin’s gulags and firing squads, exiled laureates, bullying unions, Hacked Off and the treatment of News International….or Lindsay, the desire to shut opponents up is deep in the Socialist DNA.

                • David Lindsay

                  Don’t use words that you don’t understand. Such as “the”.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Yep. As I said elsewhere, within every socialist is a communist who wants to throw anyone who disagrees with him into a gulag.

                  “Progressive” – utter bollocks. They are all the same. Nasty, controlling fascists.

                • Noa

                  To which adjectives it is necessary to add murderously pscyopathic.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Back in the 70’s, when the Bill Ayers’ mob was planning the overthrow of the US government and the installation of a great socialist experiment, these thoughtful academics planned on murdering millions and millions. They figured that would be a necessary thing, and planned for it. That was before Ayers’ mob lit off bombs and killed people, got off the charges somehow, melted back into academia, and raised up Barack Hussein Obama into politics. Previous to all that, they had planned the Left’s usual genocide, right in North America.

                  Never forget what these people will do, if given the chance. It’s not hyperbole. They are murderers.

                • David Lindsay

                  Says, I’ll bet you a pound to a penny, a member of the Ku Klux Klan, certainly in those days, and probably still. Motes and beams, luv. Motes and beams.

                  Fascinating that you accord yourself that level of importance, by the way. You compare your own person to the White House or the Capitol and to everyone in it.

                  Oh, I am enjoying this. Will you have had a stroke by the time that we have finished? I do hope so. I do hope so more than you can possibly imagine.

                  In this of all weeks, take it for MLK. Did you shoot him? I rather expect that you did.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Suggest you take the above suggestions and find a confessor, lad.

                  This isn’t trifling, what you’re doing here.

                • David Lindsay

                  It is not intended to be.

                  Keep coming back at me, and you’ll keep getting it.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Lad, it’s not me you should be worried about.

                • David Lindsay

                  I’m not worried. I know what you are, and I am not afraid to say it. The second part is new to you, I realise. Well, tough.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Yes, but it’s not about me, lad. You have far more serious issues to be concerned with.

                • David Lindsay

                  Evidently, you haven’t.

                  Lay off me, and I will lay off you. It is just possible that you might have learned your lesson. Unlikely. But just possible.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  No, given your weird spasm, I doubt there’s much for me to learn here.

                  But that isn’t what’s important here. You should consider what is, lad.

                • David Lindsay

                  That you give em a very wide berth in future, that’s what’s important. And that anyone else who feels like chancing their luck does the same thing.

                  You have not denied shooting Martin Luther King, which you are easily old enough to have done, and which you would have been very strongly motivated to have done.

                  But I am prepared to leave matters if you will do the same: just stay out of my way. Tell yourself that it was a draw if that would make you feel better. See, I am quite nice, really. Honestly, I am. Honest.

                  Anyone else?

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  Lad, laying down fantastical markers isn’t what you need to be considering as important right now. This isn’t about me or anybody else, as we’ll be ignoring those anyway. You have far more important matters to be concerned with than that.

                • David Lindsay

                  I have nothing further to say to you. Unless you are foolish enough to say anything further to me. Ever.

                • the viceroy’s gin

                  It might be best if you don’t say anything to me, but it’d be best if you find somebody else to say something to, and I think you know who and what.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Which confirms that when socialists are determinedly challenged they resort to trying to shut down their opponents, even to the extent of killing them.

                  Tells us everything we need to know about them. And unlike the bogeyman of the KKK the equally unpleasant promoters of the left are here and now, in positions of power all around us.

                • telemachus

                  “within every socialist is a communist who wants to throw anyone who disagrees with him into a gulag.”
                  Interesting but not true
                  The dialectic requires synthesis of opposing views
                  That is how society progresses and of course the mindset that could produce that phrase is expected as the mindset of little englandism
                  Of course when the dialectic has produced a progressive answer those who obstruct progress require the gulag

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Repeating yourself Squealer, as you rush to the aid of Napoleon?

                  Little Englandism is a battle cry for many of us. Like “Don’t Tread On Me”. You are the tyrants now facing an insurgency. And the “society” you have “progressed” is a sham of competing, vociferous minorities and agenda-driven lobbying groups riven with strife, jealousy, hatred and the lust for power over others, all of your own socialist making as you overturned in the babel of our “enriched” streets the wagon of law that had served Englishmen well for centuries.

                  So take your “dialectic”, Mr Squealer, and shove it very firmly where the sun doesn’t shine.

                • telemachus

                  If only I had the power to follow my last sentence

                • Colonel Mustard

                  I’d rather you followed mine. We already know and understand your “caring” views on the gulag and eliminating political opponents you fascist pig.

                  Only today I was reading how Adorno and Horkheimer regarded the New Left as “left-wing fascists”. You perfectly demonstrate the model with your tedious guff about “caring” in one hand but your TT-33 in the other.

                • telemachus

                  “As I said elsewhere, within every socialist is a communist who wants to throw anyone who disagrees with him into a gulag.”
                  Incorrect
                  The dialectic requires synthesis of contrasting views into the way forward
                  The production of that repeated phrase is to be expected of the peddlars of little englandism
                  Of course when the dialectic has identified the progressive way those who express obstruction deserve the gulag

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Thanks for the confirmation of the nasty heart beating inside that bogus “caring” shell.

                • Kennybhoy

                  Jesus wept Lindsay look what you have done! Forced me into agreeing with Maister Z!

                • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

                  well said.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Profoundly weak and borderline deranged. Dan Hodges would revert with something more sharply honed, witty and effective than that – and would not lose his sense of humanity.

                  Have you sent him any of your tracts for review? You might learn something.

                • David Lindsay

                  He wouldn’t. He couldn’t. Quite beyond him. A court jester who has now thrown away his stick. I stick to Peers of the Realm and to Professors.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  “I stick to Peers of the Realm and to Professors”

                  So, a snob then.

                • telemachus

                  Abuse up and down the threads?

                • Colonel Mustard

                  Apparently so, since you are here too, stalking once more and regurgitating your favourite pejorative phrases for those whose views do not conform to your dogma.

                • Kennybhoy

                  Get a grip Lindsay! This is low even by your wretched standards!

                • Swiss Bob

                  You need help you sick idiot.

          • realfish

            Telling isn’t it? The totalitarian mind-set within the socialist hive demands total adherence, or the silencing of those who choose not to conform.

            • David Lindsay

              Does that include 30 Tory MPs and the DUP?

          • David Lindsay

            There is no remaining point to him. “Tory Telegraph Hack Hates Ed Miliband”? So what?

            • Colonel Mustard

              “Tribal geordie Labourite dinosaur hates Dan Hodges”. So what?

              • David Lindsay

                I am not a Geordie. I am from County Durham.

                And you cannot answer the question: If Hodges is no longer even nominally a Labour member, then what is he for? That was what made him amusing to the people who found him so. Now he is not even that.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  You didn’t ask the question what is he for. You asked “So what?”. The corrupting stench of your party was too much even for him.

                  As for geordies:-

                  http://howaythelads.com/geordies/

                  You are a geordie alright.

                • David Lindsay

                  Wash your mouth out!

                • David Lindsay

                  It is not all right to write “alright”.

                • Colonel Mustard

                  It is for me old son. Xin loi!

                • anyfool

                  I am not a Geordie. I am from County Durham
                  That is the only sensible thing you have wrote in the last hour of paranoid mindless bile which unfortunately is something socialists everywhere are prone to, Stalin being prime example.

                • Hexhamgeezer

                  ‘I am not a Geordie. I am from County Durham’

                  Non sequitur

            • http://owsblog.blogspot.com Span Ows

              Tory Telegraph? Oh dear, where have you been?

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