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Ulster’s Orangemen show that Britain can do internecine vindictiveness too

11 July 2013

10:23 AM

11 July 2013

10:23 AM

This all looks terribly good fun, don’t you think? Spectacular towers which will make wonderful bonfires: it must have taken them ages. My only caveat is that they are all in Northern Ireland. Is there no enterprising alliance over here which might do something similar to celebrate the glorious military success of King William of Orange? One looks in despair at the Church of England, which would almost certainly cavil at such a celebration – but perhaps some of our more Presbyterian churches might set something up? It is important to remember at a time when there’s all this nastiness going on between the Sonny and Cher Muslims (“I got you babe – boom!”) that we can do this sort of internecine vindictiveness rather well too, on occasion. And it seems only fair to me that as there are various official celebrations of St Paddy’s day, the blue noses should have their moment in the sun, so to speak.

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Show comments
  • Gerard Martin Duffy

    our culture is based on the suppression of your culture, and our wee fleg. is all we have. we are more royal than commando. & George best can do one. because we are the UVF we are the loyalist brethren, we are the anti-people. we are inbred and we don’t like strangers. we are the loyalist lampost terrorists. no surrender..

  • Weyland

    When the English become an ethnic minority in middle of this century- ruled by a majority Muslim Gov, they will have far more understanding of NI Protestants

  • manonthebus

    Re the Headline: Northern Ireland isn’t in Britain. To wit, The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Come on – keep awake at the back!

  • William Reid Boyd

    “Sony and Cher” – boom, boom! … lol!

    Europhiles not to be outdone can reflect with quiet satisfaction on the Thirty Years War, variation on we might yet revisit NATO or no http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Hanging_by_Jacques_Callot.jpg.

  • Daniel Maris

    Can’t we give Northern Ireland to the Scots on their independence. After all, most of the Protestants there are Scots and half of the “Scots” are really Irish…they are mixed up on both sides of the water. It might as well be called Outer Scotland as Northern Ireland.

    • terregles2

      Only problem with your suggestion is that Ulster is a democracy and they are fiercely loyal to Westminster government and the Crown. They will never vote to go with Scotland.They will not be parted from their queen so no you cannot get Scotland to take them, they will never leave England.
      Half of the Scots are actually not Irish. The west coast of Scotland had a lot or Irish immigrants but Scotland is larger than the west coast and most are not of Irish descent.
      Loyalists are opposed to Scottish independence and they intend to stick loyally with England. You should be glad that they are not like Salmond intent on breaking up the united kingdom.

  • terregles2

    Think at leat they are loyal to the Crown unlike that awful Salmond.

    • stan zorin

      In the long run of history ‘the Crown’ has proved to be a big disaster for England.

      • terregles2

        It has indeed but Ulster Protestants seem to love the Crown and they would lay down their lives for the Queen.
        As they say though in Yorkshire ” there’s nowt so queer as folk.”

        • stan zorin

          They are indeed ‘queer’. Their loyalty should not be to the Crown but to the European ethnic group to which they belong and to the land on which they live. The Crown is loyal only to itself, to its dubious and infamous family tree and nothing else and feels no bond, responsibility and love for the indigenous peoples of Britain and Ireland. When the islamic push comes to shove [consider the continuous immigration and the fertility/demographic growth rates of muslims], when the time comes in the future, the Crown will do a flip and become ‘Defender of Islam’. We already heard a suggestion for the Crown to be the ‘Defender of Faiths’. All this so that a Freemason and patron of the Freemasons and a descendant of a German aristocrat Freemason can sit on the throne of England. No wonder Ulster Unionists led by their freemasonic political bureau in Ireland which is the Orange Order love the Crown, that is why they feel loyal to it.

  • terregles2

    This is the better together campaign at its strongest. While Westminster politicians express outrage at separatist Alex Salmond holding a Scottish flag at Wimbledon, the better together in Britain take action to preserve the UK instead of indulging in just empty words.
    Loyal to the Crown and Westminster government we will need these loyal UK subjects to build a united future for Great Britain should the people living in Scotland vote for independence in 2014.

  • Lungfish

    leave em alone

    • bhudster10

      who?

  • MaxSceptic

    The headline is wrong: Ulster is not part of Britain.

    Thank goodness.

  • Dogsnob

    Those tractor tyres will be a lovely feature for the kids.

  • Lewis Thomas

    Are you off your fucking rocker?

    Other factions, marches and hate aside this is a shining example of hate all on its own. Nothing comes close to touching this in the UK. Maybe Middle-England has this perception that the meetings of the Orangemen aren’t too far off quaint Royal British Legion events – a toned down mix of patriotism, trumpet-blowing with just a touch of Xenophobia. In reality this “March” marks the slaughter of other human beings and let’s not pretend that the politics and real history is not lost on the average Sash wearing, chest-banging Gorilla.

    Why don’t we start celebrating the various pogroms that took place in the “Green and Pleasant Land”? I see little to differentiate. Irrational fears of conspiracies, cabals, influence and at a very basic level the idea of ‘other’ that doled out animosity, violence and persecution.

    These marches are quite deliberately inflammatory, ensuring that they pass through areas that would not welcome them. The police presence they require this year is unprecedented! Can we really say progress has been made when that happens? Until they meet the cost of their protection by the police they should be left to march through these areas unguarded. I would wager that without the recklessness imbued by a cortege for their living-dead bigotry, they would soon find a much less controversial path through the towns that it sullies.

    Finally, I almost feel like I’m playing in to the author’s gambit by challenging this point but to compare the celebrations on the 12th to St. Patrick’s Day is ludicrous. That celebration is one which has gotten as far from its core as Christmas. Its celebrations involve veritable melting pots of people who don’t march, proselytize or goad in any way. It’s been no less of an excuse to have a drink than the Royal Wedding was.

    • Jambo25

      You’ve never been to an Away Celtic match. Have you? I doubt you’ve ever seen some of the Republican ‘jollies’ you get in Ireland and, occasionally, Scotland.

      • bhudster10

        This is an article about orange walks in Belfast, not Celtic away games.. tramp.

        • Redneck

          bhudster10

          “tramp”? Can you clarify please?

          • bhudster10

            jambo = tramp. simples.

          • Jambo25

            bhudster10 is one of that peculiarly self pitying tribe of Irish Catholic Republicans. Whether he is a real one or one of the plastic, Scottish variety whose family have possibly lived in Glasgow or some other part of the West for a century or so, I don’t know. He’s one of what Ruth Dudley Edwards calls the MOPES (Most Oppressed People Ever.)

            You can often pick out the Celtic supporting Scottish variety by their tendency to put an ‘H’ behind every ‘B’ at the start of words. So “Bhoy’, ‘bhudster 10’, ‘bhird bhrain’, ‘bhampot’, ‘bhonehead’ etc.

            If you dare to deny their obvious moral superiority, victimhoopd and MOPE status you are obviously a “tramp” or possibly an Orange bigot. You must be.

            • bhudster10

              Well Jambo, you know my entire family history already, my politics and my religion….Oh wait, maybe not, perhaps you just surmised that through your own prejudice.
              All I said was that this thread is about Irish Orange walks, you were the one that brought Scottish Football into it, and I pulled you up for it.
              I’ll apologise for the tramp bit, I was a wee bit merry.

              • terregles2

                The problem is that people living in Scotland are also subjected to orange walks and less often some republican march. They are different sides of the same coin so the colours they wear are unimportant.
                To witness an orange walk through any Scottish city does not do much for the tourist trade. It does not do much for the residents who have their travel disrupted and can find that their usual buses are not in operation.
                Most of us live busy lives and to have a whole weekend disrupted for this outdated nonsense is unacceptable.
                Everyone complains about it but nothing gets done. if you had a vote in any major Scottish city as to whether or not they want these marches the answer would be a resounding NO.
                If they must march they should be made to do so well away from any city.

      • Lewis Thomas

        I’m really, really, really glad you replied. I have actually and I’m perfectly aware of the existence of rebel nights and the like. I agree with the comment below, that this is in no way about football and I deliberately avoided that to avoid tarring any respectable fans of clubs like Rangers or Hearts (which with a name like Jambo you’re either a fan of or you share your nickname with a dead gorilla. Apt.)

        In Scotland anyway, I can say as a matter of fact that there’s actually laws against Sectarian behaviour in connection with what you’re talking about: http://bit.ly/phK8Al

        The difference between that and the Orange Walks is that there’s no sign of charges being handed out for maintaining division by flute, drum and sash.

        • Jambo25

          Actually, the law passed in 2011 and 2012 was superfluous. Offensive songs and chants were always illegal under previous public order laws and the majority of those who have since fallen foul of the police and courts in this respect have done so under those previous laws. The problem was that, for practical reasons, the police didn’t always enforce them. They tend to do so now, in Scotland, at least. A lot of Huns and Tims don’t like it.

          Catholic Republicans can be and often are as unpleasant and bigoted as some of their Protestant Unionist fellow citizens. They are simply given an easier ride. If you want to get into a discussion about how bad each side is I’ll willingly co-operate but it would be pointless.

  • ProffessorPlum

    “to celebrate the glorious military success of King William of Orange”

    This would be the wonderful orange who was elevated to power with Dutch banker’s money so that they could get rid of the Stuarts, who would not allow a National Bank in England, and pave the way for establishment of such a bank and William’s subsequent forcing of that bank to borrow huge sums so that he could wage war on catholics.

    The clue is in: who was in control of the dutch banks?

    • rodliddle

      Not absolutely sure you’ve understood this in the manner it was intended, Proffessor.

      • Dogsnob

        I’m thinking of doing a PhD if they’re so easy come by.

      • ProffessorPlum

        “the manner it was intended”

        like gloating at violence between catholics and protestants – with a
        gratuitous dig at moslems thrown in for good measure.

        Doesn’t alter the fact that thanks to the treachery of John Churchill, dutch jewish bankers were able to take over England’s finances and through their agent,William of Orange,to to launch costly wars between protestants and catholics using English money and English lives on their behalf.

        • rodliddle

          You really are profoundly stupid, aren’t you? There was no dig at Muslims – exactly the opposite. I was pointing out there are occasions when Christians are not so different. I assumed even the dimmest half wit reading the post would have understood that. But I always forget about you.

          • ProffessorPlum

            ” There was no dig at Muslims – exactly the opposite. I was pointing out there are occasions when Christians are not so different.”

            Nor jews or buddhists, only you chose to leave them out.

            • rodliddle

              Christ help us. Are the newspapers full of stories of internecine violence within Buddhism? Or within Judaism? Or are there largely stories about internecine violence within the Umma?

              • ProffessorPlum

                Not nowadays, although in the past they could have been.

  • Lungfish

    Its all very boring, Catholics and muslims will win the day in the end, they breed like feckin rabbits.

    • Lungfish

      Baron- ignore my insults old friend!

  • Daniel Maris

    What a horrific sight – a real environmental disaster. We really are pathetic in tackling these bullies aren’t we?

  • John Steadman

    If there is anything absurd or pathetic or offensive about the ritual Protestant/Loyalist marches, it is wholly equalled by the Catholic/Republican response to them.
    Let us not get carried away with the idea that one tribe in this land ravaged by sectarian bigotry is any better or worse than the other.

    • bhudster10

      So if marching bands belonging to an organisation whose followers hate you and your ilk, came marching down your street, swaggering away, drunk and tuneless.
      Open arms I’ll bet

      • John Steadman

        No, no open arms….well understood. But no missiles, either. Blind mindless hatred is not exclusive to one side either.

      • Hood

        Sorry bhudster, but that’s just lying propaganda.

        Now the reality – bands lead Orange lodges down a main thoroughfare into central Belfast at 8:00am. Only about 200 yards of the 3 mile walk are “contentious”. They walk past shops which local Protestants cannot use because of intimidation, and past perhaps 20 houses in total which have been “cleansed” of Protestants.

        On any other holiday, this road is deserted at this time of the day. Not today however. A baying crowd of republicans have set their alarm clocks. They include supporters of the dissidents who still thinks it’s a good idea to murder and maim police whether they be Catholic or Protestant. As the day wears on and the marchers are due to return, the mob hurls missiles and petrol bombs. Cars are hijacked and burnt. The culprits, when brought to court, are revealed not as locals but from towns and villages all across Northern Ireland, i.e. rent-a-mob hooligans.

        Gerry Adams, who tells us that he was never a member of the IRA, asked his supporters a few years back whether they thought the protests against marches had started by accident …

        • bhudster10

          And the rag tag scum that follow your hate marches are all locals?
          Don’t play the victim Hood, I am currently watching the news showing your bretheren attacking the police because they are not being allowed to swagger drunkenly through a nationalist area. Buckfast everywhere. lol

          • crosscop

            Swaggering drunkenly is not an offence. Hurling bricks and petrol bombs at someone who is swaggering drunkenly, certainly is.

            BTW – Nationalist area? Are you proposing that some areas of their own country should be off-limits to Loyalists because their presence there would provoke violence? That some areas should also be off-limits to Catholics? That some areas should be off-limits to Muslims? That some areas should be off-limits to non-Muslims?

            Have you come across the term “Balkanisation”?

          • Hood

            You’ve nothing to say bluster10, but it doesn’t stop you saying it.

            You’re determinedly ignorant.

            • bhudster10

              When a Republican flute band is welcomed down the Shankhill, I’ll take your crap seriously.

      • Redneck

        bhudster10

        Interesting comment.

        If the UK is a truly free country, what marches and protests would you ban and why?
        There are numerous organisations and groups with whom I disagree vehemently but, short of those espousing overt violence, I’d defend their right to “protest”.

        • bhudster10

          It’s where they protest that’s the main problem. When they insist on marching through nationalist areas pissed up, that’s when their ‘rights’ come into question. Apparently the PSNI came to the same conclusion today.

          • Billyrubin

            The problem is that for the last few years the Prods have given and given, and the Catholics have taken and taken. It’s supposed to be about compromise, yet one side isn’t doing anything in that spirit. If IRA/Sinn Fein decided to march in my area I would respect their right to do so. Sadly intolerance is something so ingrained in republicans and some Catholics that they feel unable to allow the same freedom of expression to others. They’ve been doing it ever since Martin Luther exposed them to the Truth.

            • bhudster10

              Wow, a Loyalist preaching tolerance, bit like a fish on a bicycle, doesn’t really add up.
              For years the nationalists put up with your triumphalist parades going through their streets, you know there is no republican equivalent going through loyalist streets.

              There is a ceasefire now, and part of that is the Prods have to give up taunting their Catholic neighbours in the guise of orange walks.
              The walks can still continue in neutral areas.

              • crosscop

                Any citizen of the United Kingdom should be free to walk unobstructed down any street anywhere in the United Kingdom. There should be no no-go zones – Catholic, Protestant or Muslim. If some people don’t like the views of the people who are marching – then tough luck. It is not an excuse to resort to violence.

            • terregles2

              I am sorry but it is time that you realised that many people could not care less about Catholics or Protestants. In this day and age it is unbelievable that anyone thinks that important. So many people now have no religion.
              Those days are gone and it is only the uneducated who try and cling on to that nonsense. Most of us live beside people who we do not know or care what religion they are.
              If the IRA or orangemen want to march in my area no thanks I do not want my area brought to a standstill and disrupted.
              I live in a city where orange marches take place and let me tell you they march through the city centre not through the poor areas most of them come from. The areas they march in do not want to see them,
              If they want to march they should be put into a large field away from all the people who do not want to see them and let them march round and round.
              IRA or orange just different sides of the same coin and most people do not want to see either of them.

              • Weyland

                liberal snob

  • The_greyhound

    Burning tyres always say A.N.C. to me.

    I hope they save one to mark Mr Mandela’s passing.

  • Billyrubin

    I love our Protestant marches. We have the biggest one on the mainland in my home town of Liverpool. It’s part of our heritage and our culture. The NI Protestants have given up a lot in the peace process, much more than the RCs have, but sadly our tolerant Catholic friends will not be happy till they have extinguished every vestige of Protestantism in these islands. We don’t object to them having their days out, why do they object to ours?

    • John Lea

      Dressing children up as King Billy, marching through housing estates at 7 and 8 in the morning (and on a Saturday at that), banging drums and attracting the foulest dregs in society – and we’re talking real Jeremy Kyle reject types here – yes, I can see that it must make you very proud indeed. I have no objection to any faith or community celebrating its history, but let’s not gloss what is – and always has been – an anti-catholic rally. I also resent funding the heavy police presence required for these marches. I also dislike republican marches and feel equally embarrassed at their presence in my city. Why can’t you people just get a bloody life?

      • Billyrubin

        It’s part of our history. On the 12th of July 1690 we defeated a vile traitor james II, who wanted to impose the Stuart’s own form of authoritarian rule on us.
        And of course, Catholics never do anything that is anti-Protestant (or anti any other religion) do they? They just don’t like it up ’em.
        Also there were wouldn’t be a need for a heavy police presence if the RCs were more tolerant. We don’t kick up a fuss about their celebrations on March 17.

        • John Lea

          How reassuring it must be for someone like yourself (i.e. a zealot) to believe that the world is one large Catholic conspiracy. There’s something faintly sinister, nay Hitlerian about you, old chap. As I said, you need to get out more, broaden your horizons a bit, and meet people who – and you’re going to have to stretch your mind real wide here, Billy Boy – might even dislike and resent the Orange Walk but are not (repeat: are NOT) anti-Protestant. Could your mind handle that concept? Hmmm, I have my doubts.

          • jatrius

            It was an important chapter in the defeat of an abhorrent absolutist dictatorship, wreathed in the pious garb of the Papacy. Louis XIV’s attempt to impose a supranational hegemony on Europe was only defeated with the small victories such as The Boyne and only by this means could the very idea of parliamentary democracy be preserved for future generations. It should be celebrated.

            • MichtyMe

              I thought the pope was on billy’s side and the bells of the vatican were rung on the news of the boyne.

              • bhudster10

                He was, but the oranges just ignore that bit.

              • Damon

                Hurray. Someone who actually knows a bit of history. Well done. As for the NI Unionists (for whom I have sympathy), march as much as you like, but leave the bricks at home. Okay?

              • jatrius

                Yes, he wanted Louis, James’ patron, to be given a check to his Gallican ambitions but this doesn’t negate his ‘soft’ support for James’ eventual aim of the full restoration of Catholicism within England. Clumsily worded, I admit.

              • Weyland

                The Pope gave sanctuary in the Vatican to King James II son & grandson- The Old & young pretenders, recognising them as kings of England

            • David Lindsay

              wreathed in the pious garb of the Papacy

              The Papacy was on the other side. A Papal Blessing was sent to William of Orange when he set out for Ireland, and the Lateran Palace was illuminated for a fortnight when news of his victory at the Boyne reached Rome. James was allied to his own anti-Papal Bourbon cousins.

          • Weyland

            Hitler WAS a Catholic

            • http://ajbrenchley.com/ Swanky

              Only nominally. Not in any way else.

        • ProffessorPlum

          “we defeated a vile traitor james II,”

          In what way was James II a traitor?

          Are you confusing him with John Churchill, the Ist Duke of Malborough?

          • Fergus Pickering

            Nonsense fellah. We cut off his Dad’s head and that was the right thing to do because he was a fool. We welcomed his brother because he was an intelligent man who knew which way was up. James was as big a fool as his father and needed to be got rid of. Banks have nothing to do with it.

            • ProffessorPlum

              “he was a fool”

              That’s not what Billyrubin claimed; he claimed he was a traitor.

              “Banks have nothing to do with it.”

              Apart from the fact that if you say so then it must be true; I suppose it was purely coincidential that one of the first things William did was to set up a National bank through which to borrow money and wage war on catholics using English money and English live to do so.

        • Damien Brennan

          Yes a Dutchman defeated an English man hundreds of years ago! yipeee. Catholics have no problem with Orange days out, what they have a problem with is that they seem to be obsessed with having their days out in Catholic Nationalist areas. How would the Loyalists feel if Republicans marched down their streets with Tricolours singing republican songs??? I believe if this happened bloody carnage would take place. Yet Orangemen aren’t happy until they get to do exactly this. By all means celebrate your culture but do it in a place where it IS the culture and will be appreciated not in Republican areas where it is an alien culture.For God sake man it is a rule of the Orange order that you can’t be a member if you are Catholic, it is a sectarian organisation!!!. This is why Orange culture is a sick culture based on hatred because they need to intimidate and dominate to express their culture. Sad sad bunch

    • Vrai écossais

      According to the the latest census, NI Protestants are the slightly biggest minority. They are no longer the majority. Given the Ulster voices in Dublin, Glasgow and London, I suspect the Catholics are the majority in Ulster now.

      Aside the demographics, the Police do not let EDF folk walk past Muslim areas, why should Orangemen walk down Catholic areas? Who cares what happened a few centuries ago, now the demographic has changed and Protestants are the minority. Time has changed and they need to change or time will change them.

    • Damien Brennan

      Are you kidding? LOL! Yes the Protestant Unionists have gave up a lot more because pre agreement they had almost complete dominance and control. They controlled the Police, politics and discrimination against Catholics who w ‘traditionally second class citizens’ was rampant. A day out ???? Catholics have no problem with Orange days out, what they have a problem with is that they seem to be obsessed with having their days out in Catholic Nationalist areas. How would the Loyalists feel if Republicans marched down their streets with Tricolours singing republican songs??? I believe if this happened bloody carnage would take place. Yet Orangemen aren’t happy until they get to do exactly this. By all means celebrate your culture but do it in a place where it IS the culture and will be appreciated not in Republican areas where it is an alien culture.For God sake man it is a rule of the Orange order that you can’t be a member if you are Catholic, it is a sectarian organisation!!!. This is why Orange culture is a sick culture based on hatred because they need to intimidate and dominate to express their culture. Sad sad bunch.

  • AndrewMelville

    God bless King Billy, whose campaign was funded by the Pope, thankee your Holiness. The Glorious Revolution is the great source of all our liberties (& the Yanks’) and richly deserves memorial.

    Of course our liberties are under a massive assault – directly from the political scruff & from their quisling cooperation with all sorts of terrorists (starting with the ever foul IRA) and of course with Satan’s imps, the EC.

  • CraigStrachan

    Ever been to the Lewes bonfire?

    • FrankS

      They’re great (though cordoned off behind ‘security’ barriers last time I went. No Popery – great!

      • terregles2

        Written up on some shabby wall a backward person had written
        ” No Pope Here”
        Another person had written under it ” Lucky Pope.” The response brightened up a dismal piece of grafitti.

  • tompiper

    I’m an Englishman married to a Northern Irish protestant. My grandmother was an Irish Catholic who married out of the faith and married back into after my grandfather died. Once I explained this to my brother-in-law and he commented succinctly: ‘a half-mongrel bites the hardest.’ Liddle is on target this time and as the say here in the dark north ‘what’s bred in the bone can’t be bate out.’

    • terregles2

      Can’t really agree with that statement. Both myself and my husband are from mixed Catholic/Non Catholic families and I had no family or friends who cared about the Catholic Protestant issue at all. Many of us could not have cared less about religion.
      I grew up in Scotland with my Protestant cousins and our having different religions was never an issue. We were family and we loved each other for heavens sake.
      Sometimes it is hard to believe that this is 2013.

      • tompiper

        I find it entirely disinegenuous for anyone to claim familiarity with Northern Ireland and not be aware of the bigotry on both sides. That is not to say that there is no coming together, or that all Ps and Cs are intolerant, or even that everybody in NI cleaves to religion. It just means that the sectarian divide continues exert an insidious influence.

        Look at the slogan KTA and wake yourself up.

        • terregles2

          I did not claim familiarity with Northern Ireland. of course there is bigotry there nobody would deny that. I was speaking of my own experiences of being a mixed religious family in Scotland. I believe that a couple of generations back in Scotland mixed relgious marriages could cause some people a problem.
          I was merely saying that in recent times and while I was growing up nobody bothered about mixed marriages very much. Indeed now in Scotland some non Catholics send their children to Catholic schools just because the schools have better reports. That would never have happened years ago.
          I was disagreeing with your comment of what’s bred in the bone and a half mongrel biting hardest. People can and do change their attitudes and many do not bother about religion now. I think we all know that Northern Ireland is more about the border and a reunited Ireland than a straightforward dislike of a different religion.

  • Colin

    Any takers as to what K A T means ?

    That’s one bog, feckin bonfire…

    • Austin Barry

      Unhappily, it means “Kill All Taigs” .

      • Colin

        Not much changes, it seems.

      • Cymrugel

        A sentiment to rally a community if ever there was one.

      • Daniel Maris

        Strangely, while the UK Police seem more than happy to hunt down random alcoholic nutters on trams who spout vile hate, it seems they can live with “Kill All Taigs”. Charming.

        • FrenchNewsonlin

          Strangely? Why? They also appear to live happily with “Kill All Infidels”.

          • Daniel Maris

            Good point.

    • Jabez Foodbotham

      Whatever the sentiment, it looks like the Broch o’ Tires to me.

  • Austin Barry

    “…all this nastiness going on between the Sonny and Cher Muslims …”

    One of the more interesting changes in semantics and pragmatics over the last few years is that ‘Religion of Peace’ is now only used, by other than the dissembling faithful and our ruling elites, with ironic derison.

  • sir_graphus

    Mostly I feel sorry for the NI protestants and unionists; the British govt secured peace (and didn’t they shout about it) by giving the terrorists nearly all of what they wanted.
    Then comes the marching season, and most of my sympathy evaporates.

    • Cymrugel

      Quite.

      I can’t really fathom a faith that makes a point of marching down the street basically telling the neighbours to fuck off and trying to intimidate them – and on the way to church at that.
      There seems to me to be little real connection between NI Protestantism and Christianity of even the most flexible interpretation – and believe me I have tried to find one.
      It just seems like general nastiness and belligerence given ritual form,

      • DougS

        It’s a common enough practice.

        The Americans like to make a fuss about sticking it to the British.

        We celebrated Nelson and Trafalgar – and even invited our French and Spanish (EU) neighbours to the celebrations – you can’t get much more brazen than that!

        • Wessex Man

          and why shouldn’t we celebrate Nelson and Trafalgar, a real turning point against the French, who then enslaved their Spanish allies!

      • chan chan

        Northern Ireland has nothing to do with religion. It’s about politics. The religious stuff is window dressing for the public. The IRA were a political organisation, with a political aim, and a politically negotiable position. Catholicism is incidental.

        • John Steadman

          “Northern Ireland has nothing to do with religion.” I think we take your point but this is still a little bit extravagant, don’t you think, given that religion confers tribal identity and hence political beliefs and prejudices, all nicely reinforced by a sectarian schools system which ensures the perpetuation of social division and conflict; as we will see on this side of the water when the curious, and, to some of us, obscene fashion for “faith” schools (ie, “sectarian”, to give it its old and more honest descrption) bears its full fruits.

          • chan chan

            Religion polarises, certainly, but the point is it’s not the fundamental driver of the conflict. It’s because the UK took over part of another country, the natives didn’t like it, and they wanted to reverse the situation. It’s not because one side were Catholics and another were Protestants. That’s incidental, ultimately. So I disagree it’s extravagant.

            • John Steadman

              Yes…..but all that is history, and for how long must historical events determine current behaviour/attitudes? The sectarian divide ensures that history remains a running sore, and the sectarian divide is by definition, religious.

              Northern Ireland politics are not about the economy or immigration or sovereignty or the Welfare State – they are about tribal loyalties specifically with ragard to constitutional matters.
              I am, incidentally, a believer in a united Ireland – by all means an independant republic – by evolution, not violent revolution.

          • GentlemanPugilist

            I toured Belfast with a former UDA man. He told me that many, if not most, young Loyalists are not religious. It’s merely an extension of their cultural identity. Many Loyalist murals even state that the ‘conflict is about nationality’.

            e.g. http://cgge.aag.org/NationalIdentity1e/CaseStudy2_Landscapes_Oct09/Figure10.png

            What I think’s interesting is that two white peoples – the Ulster-Scots and the Irish, both indigenous to the British Isles and both Christian, have been unable to reconcile their differences after 400 years – yet our government is importing millions of people from other continents who’re establishing ghettos. It doesn’t bode well for the future.

            • John Steadman

              I don’t think that whether or not they are “religious” has very much to do with the fact that their view of the world is deeply coloured by their religious identity.
              “It’s (ie religion) merely an extention of their cultural identity.” Or the other way round perhaps?
              But I agree with you that successive British Governments seem to have learned nothing from the Ulster example about how to promote social cohesion – and if we don’t see the sad outcome of this, our descendants will. The” promotion of sectarian education is sheer madness.

            • Damien Brennan

              For Loyalists and UDA UVF etc they hate Catholics and simply being Catholic is enough to make you an enemy, this is fact. You were malformed by this former UDA man. He is mixing up loyalists and republicans. It is the Republicans who take a solely political stance, even some of the most famous Irish rebels were Protestant so it is not part of Republican mentality to hate Protestants but rather British occupation. The Loyalists however are clearly anti Catholic, you only have to look at the above picture KAT, Kill all Taigs(Catholics. The Loyalist paramilitaries also simply murdered Catholics plain and simple. Executed and tortured countless innocent Catholics some as young as 15, simply because they were Catholics, NOT political in any way.

              • paul4id

                You are confusing the Loyalist ability to identify non-uniformed Republican terrorist targets (in contrast for the ability of Republicans to pick off the uniformed sitting ducks in the police and army) with the wider picture.

                Yes, Presbyterians were the original Republicans a couple of hundred years ago, but that is not the case in any recent time as Irish Republicanism has been co-opted by militant Catholic nationalism.

        • AndyG

          No theIRA were and still are murdering SCUM

          • chan chan

            I didn’t say they weren’t. But they weren’t killing people for no reason whatsoever. They had political, not religious reasons reasons why they were doing it. That’s all my point is about.

            The exact opposite is the case with Islamic terrorism – religion is the driver, and politics is incidental, the polarising force. In NI, religion is the polarising force.

            • Hood

              The IRA killed indiscriminately.

              Men, women and children were killed and maimed in bombings.

              A van carrying 11 workmen was stopped by the IRA at Teebane crossroads. They were asked their religion. The one Catholic was released and the 10 Protestants murdered.

              IRA gunmen walked into Darkley Gospel Hall and opened fire on the congregation indiscriminately, killing 3 Protestants.

              They may have had, and still do have, an ultimate political aim of a united Ireland, but they are still bigoted, murdering terrorist scum. Lest there is any confusion, they do have their mirror image on the loyalist side.

              Let’s not dignify them. They deserve contempt.

              • terregles2

                All violence deserves contempt no matter what group it comes from.

              • Guest

                This is not a balanced or realistic approach to the IRA. If you knew your history the 11 workman killed at Teebane was not an action typical to the IRA but rather the Loyalist para’s. At this time the UVF were killing Catholics indiscriminately and had made statements that all Catholics were targets. In other words ‘kill all Taigs’ Just like the image above states. The IRA in a response killed 11 protestants to show that they too could easily murder people simply because they were protestants and sent a clear message to the Loyalists to stop the killing which it did succeed in doing for a substantial period of time. It was a one of for the IRA. The IRA’S enemy was the British troops, UDR and RUC, NOT Protestants. Infact some of the greatest ever Irish republicans were Protestants. The religious bigotry and hatred is associated and embedded in the Unionist Protestant people of N.Ireland, this is a known fact.

          • funkinwolf

            Calm down. As someone who has personally experienced IRA terrorism I can sympathise with your feelings. But to secure peace, one needs to put aside emotive sentiments like yours, otherwise we will surrender our children to another generation of hate. If your goal is to have a economic and prosperous Northern Ireland, then both communities need to realise they have to work together.

            Neither side will be ultimately rid of one another and why? because Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom are part of the EU, both will be subjected to the same EU laws, like the freedom of movement, human rights and so on.

            I’d start with mixed religious schools. Let the next generation get a chance to cooperate and unite. If their grand parents want to act like hooligans and bigots fine. But why can’t 5 year old Catholics and Protestants just have play tag together?

            • Weyland

              Protestants go to State schools in N Ireland, its the Catholics who go to separatist religious catholic schools

        • Cymrugel

          true. But the orangemen thought differently.
          Yes it was political in the sense that they felt they had a right to dominate, but it was based foursquare on a twisted religiosity. I’ve been around enough of them to realise this.

    • Weyland

      They should be more like the English? – cowering in their homes while Gov turn them into an ethnic minority in London & soon rest of England

    • paul4id

      Probably because you have been told over-simplified stories in the
      media. William’s army was mixed of Protestant and Catholic and supported
      by the Pope! Celebrations are about freedom of expression, but the wider feeling around this time is amplified by the very real existential terrorist threat (something the current generations of docile British mainlanders have not woken up to as they fail to stand up for their own interests and let themselves be swamped by foreigners).

  • chan chan

    If the government paid them to build them, they could at least take those few people off the dole for a bit.

  • Keith D

    Indeed.Although the Queens Eleven put on quite a few pyrotechnics along with their other half at the recent Glasgow Cup Final at poor old wooden Firhill.

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