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Islamists may turn into capitalists. Then again they may not

18 July 2013

18 July 2013

A number of columnists have written recently about how we have all misunderstood ‘the Arab Spring’. Most prevalent among them has been the claim that when the current youth-bulge in these countries grows up they will in fact turn into capitalist entrepreneurs.

I concede that it is possible. It would certainly be highly desirable. But as an idea it ignores the thing which secular Western commentators continuously ignore: that is the small matter of ideology.

On this note, might I heartily recommend the following two videos?  The first is a recent Friday sermon from the Egyptian cleric Muhammad Zoghbi calling on Allah to annihilate the Jews and the Shiites. Viewers will notice how moved certain of his congregation are by these imprecations.

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The second is a video of a pro-Morsi demonstration outside the al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem last week. There the crowd is led by Imam Ismat Al-Hammouri. He chants and the crowd repeats it. This is how it goes:

Imam: Allah Akbar. May America be destroyed.
Crowd: Allah Akbar.
Imam: Allah Akbar. May France be destroyed.
Crowd: Allah Akbar. May France be destroyed.
Imam: Allah Akbar. May Rome be conquered.
Crowd: Allah Akbar. May Rome be conquered.
Imam: Allah Akbar. May America be destroyed.
Crowd: Allah Akbar. May America be destroyed.
Imam: Allah Akbar. May France be destroyed.
Crowd: Allah Akbar. May France be destroyed.
Imam: Allah Akbar. May Britain be destroyed.
Crowd: Allah Akbar. May Britain be destroyed.
Imam: Allah Akbar. May Rome be conquered.
Crowd: Allah Akbar. May Rome be conquered.

In the Times yesterday the usually excellent Daniel Finkelstein argued that:

‘When Gerry Adams grew up and decided he would rather have a family life and money and a job and stop all the fighting, peace came to Northern Ireland. When the teenagers become adults, they go to work and start creating jobs for others.’

I suppose it is possible that as a best-case scenario all the people standing outside the al-Aqsa mosque the other day – like all those listening to radical sermons across North Africa and the Middle East – are going to grow up to become Gerry Adams.

On the other hand, perhaps they will turn out not to be capitalists but ideologues.

People without ideology nearly always downplay or ignore the significance of ideology in others. But for those with the most fevered ideologies of all, the ideology really is the only thing that matters.


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Show comments
  • McRobbie

    When your education of morality is based on learning a book word for word with no interpretation..often under threat of beatings if you forget a word, then you are going to somewhat brainwashed. Growing up amongst people with similar brainwashed upbringings isn’t likely to give anyone a chance to learn about the real world.

  • pearlsandoysters

    Flagrant ignorance of the author beggars belief, he speaks about “ideology” which is utterly wrong. There’s no separation between political and religious spheres in the East. Ideology is a by-product of secularization, meanwhile the conflicts and battles he mentions are all about secularization of the societies in question. I seriously wonder when the members of the media corps pay slightly more attention to the meaning of the words they tend to use.

  • Fak_Zakaix

    “But for those with the most fevered ideologies of all, the ideology really is the only thing that matters.”
    You mean Judaism?

  • Plum_is_an_idiot

    There are currently almost 150 postings on this blog which is all about Islamists. Yet one person, “ProffessorPlum” hijacks it, as he does other blogs, and turns it into a rant about Israel and Jews. Is it not about time that the Spectator and Disqus moderators got a grip and allowed only postings clearly RELEVANT to the subject matter?

    • Drakken

      I say let the muzzy rant like the islamaniac that he is, it shows everybody what they are up against and that there is no such thing as dialogue or coexistence with savages like him.

  • hellosnackbar

    It’s my belief that the politically correct poltroons within our society should be put to one side,and that Islam in general should be subject to satire on television.
    When the backward culture of Islam is subjected to scornful laughter ; then the more moderate common sense Muslims will probably withdraw.
    The totalitarian ,supremacist philosophy can only be accepted by the most untalented.

    • SirWilhelm

      Ridicule works for them, and their Leftist allies, why not use it against them?

  • dave brooker

    They all hate us because we boss them about, only care about their oil and gas and always side with Israel.

    Can anyone really blame them?

    • SirWilhelm

      When you say we “boss them about”, you’re talking about Iraq and Afghanistan, aren’t you? The US is out of Iraq, and on the verge of leaving Afghanistan. Afghanistan has no oil or gas, and Iraq controls their own oil and gas fields. Obama is far from siding with Israel, and is, in fact, doing his best to betray them, as subtly, and diplomatically, as possible.
      They hate us because we are free, and stand between them and the world domination their deity commanded them to attain, since Islam’s birth in Saudi Arabia, which led to the First Islamic Empire. Yes, we can blame them for believing in a deity that demands they swear to be his slaves, and commands them to conquer the world in his name, by any means necessary, no matter how long it takes.

      • dave brooker

        No like the whole middle east, when the good people of Gaza voted for Hamas, we told them off, and then supported a crippling and illegal blockade of them for not voting for who we wanted.

        If you think we’re free, you’re deluding yourself…

  • C. Gee

    Yes, Mr. Murray, I agree, they’ll have no bananas. “Growing up” ideologically requires an Enlightenment. Ideologically there is almost nothing to distinguish between Arab Islamism, Arab secularism, nazism and international socialism (including views about Jews). The form of government – monarchy, theocracy, secular dictatorship – makes no difference. Government is always a mafia. While in the West, the left believes that government can control the economy – currently by adjusting the consumer demand thermostat – it is not the demand for full stores or jobs to pay the money to buy the goods that will bring out forces of freedom in Islam. Government jobs and government subsidies can meet those demands. V.S.Naipaul understood the the Arab/Islamic view of goods – they simply arrive at the great bazaar. The tribal warlords regard money as essential to bribery, not commerce. Where the Enlightenment hasn’t happened, there are no institutions of freedom and no capitalism. Tribalism, collectivism, totalitarianism – all developmentally childish, but we are regressing, fast.

  • Dogsnob

    Capitalist ideologues abound now in my English city and many others.
    Keen businessmen using their skills to buy as much kuffar property as possible. Prominent pubs and churches top of the list to signal the takeover and to instil despondency in the host.
    None of this is new. Standard expansionist strategy.

  • Abhay

    Its hard to believe that McCain, French socialists and Hague were straining at the end of their leashes to go help the Wahabi zealot thugs in Syria. Did they not know them, their real nature?

    • Daniel Maris

      You’ve got to understand that everything they claim to “know” is filtered through various institutions like Chatham House (aka “nest of vipers”). Why we let special interest groups determine our foreign policy I don’t know.

  • mightymark

    Douglas is of course right about the role of ideology. Indeed the truly odd thing is that those who act as apologists for Islamism especially on the left, are very well aware of the importance of ideology in history generally. Not for them the history of “great men” – outmoded they would say. Theirs are the bookshelves weighted down with vast tomes linking great historical events and movements to the role of ideas.

    The exception all too often is Islamism which despite its clear ideological basis in interlinking religion and politics (a potent brew if ever there was one) is totally sidelined by such types.

    • Abhay

      But what are you going to say about the backers of Islamists in Syria such as Hague and McCain? Apparently, not from the left

      • mightymark

        Ah well – that is the blind spot of the right – “realpolitik” or a misconceived version or instance of it.

  • Roy

    They (the Islamists) know the enemy they live with and take sustenance from are weak and have already conceded to wish after wish of Islamic order. They speak down to them, they hold upright and march with placards telling of their declared war and treatment they will meter out to the infidels in due course. Yet still the leadership say how happy they are with things and cannot bring themselves to answer the treacherous throngs with other than hints on how decent citizens they will become. It is as if the loony Westminster hierarchy have been impregnated with a parasitic worm that has found itself into their brains from whence it continues to eat away and increase its numbers.

    • Kate HA

      Wonderful analogy. Exactly what has happened to huge swathes of England:
      “impregnated” and taken over by a “parasitic” ideology which continues to
      gorge itself on British taxpayers and “increase in numbers”.

  • edlancey

    Far from Finkelstein being usually excellent, it’s imo just more dripping-wet drivel from him.

    For one thing, Adams’ goals, laughable as they are (a 32 republic marxist state covering the whole of Ireland) were much more humble and attainable that a global Islamic caliphate full of billions of slaves of Allah.

    It’s yet another example of the opinion-formers like Finkelstein being so dangerously out of touch with reality and the evidence of their lying eyes that you wonder whether their opinions on absolutely everything aren’t equally worthless.

    • Baron

      The uptick is for the first sentence, edlancy, just in case you’re wondering.

      • edlancey

        I wasn’t.

    • Tom M

      “For one thing, Adams’ goals, laughable as they are… were much more humble and attainable that a global Islamic caliphate…….”
      Just a matter of scale and time. They’ve been doing this since the 7th century and they aren’t in a hurry.

  • Baron

    Ideology doesn’t fill up stomachs, capitalism does.

    You recall a long debate about what to do in Afghanistan, and Baron’s suggestion we should subsidise the likes of Wall Mart, tell them to set up co-op type of chains with local tribal chiefs selling mostly the stuff the locals like with few western offerings, enlarging the range of the latter as time goes by? Baron still reckons it would have been better for all involved if we did that, we wouldn’t have lost so many lives unnecessarily, saved few quid, the hellhole would have something called a GDP after we’ve left, the belief in the medieval ideology cut down by a notch or two.

    The same goes for Egypt, the other countries in the ME, all that’s needed is time to show to the unwashed shouting ‘destroy this country or the other’ ain’t the smartest way to live for it does FA to feed the family. If you’re in or around London, go have a look who shops at Harrods and the M&S stores – alot of Muslims. Why should those Muslims unable to travel to our shores to get seduced by consumerism be any different from those who can, ha?

    • allymax bruce

      You said, “ideology doesn’t fill stomachs, capitalism does”

      Baron, in these ideologies, they’re not focused on filling their stomachs. I’d be happy to set you a 7 session-set of learning outcomes on this subject.
      For a tidy fee; of-course.

      • Baron

        Listen, you money grabbing capitalist, of course you could. There’s alot of evidence on each side of the argument, Baron sticks to his because the bearded wonder of the left, one Karl Marx, got one thing right. “It isn’t the consciousness of men that determines their being, but on the contrary, it’s the economic reality that shapes the man’s consciousness”, said he.

        To worship, follow any creed one has to breathe, and to breathe one has to fill one’s stomach regularly. Nature wouldn’t have it the other way round. Before the globalised TV, the internet were around most of the unwashed knew BA what the hoi polloi in countries behind the borders began possessing as they got a say in how things are run. It was easier for the mullahs to say ‘suffer, my son for this suffering is but transient, the real joy will come after you drop dead’. Now, they know, want to suffer less, get some of the trappings of consumerism, too, before they stop breathing. Can you blame them?

        • allymax bruce

          Baron, you argue well; unlike the dead-head abortionists of consciousness versus reality, (those that attack back with only name-calling), yes Marx was right, from his side of the argument! Marx was the Left’s best ‘politician, philosopher, and economist all rolled into one.But Marx was ultimately wrong; he himself used religion, (Judaism), to structure his theoretical thinking. Marx, like Freud, couldn’t see his self-analysis/theories were holding him back from carrying his theories to their ultimate & correct conclusions !

          • jjjj

            And your idols motivate the Islamofascists who wish to murder the Jews. Your own preferred conclusion.

    • Daniel Maris

      I don’t recall that particular debate but I sympathise with the points you make. We certainly need to think about our economic impact on these countries. It would have been a lot cheaper in Afghanistan if the USA, UK and other allies had simply employed every male aged 16-35 on a good (Afghan) wage that kept them busy 24/7.

      I am a long term optimist. I think if we can hang on long enough and prevent our W. European societies being taken over by Sharia creep then we can wear down Islam until it has been defanged. However, that means holding the line and not giving an inch.

      • FrenchNewsonlin

        “hang on long enough…” But what an appalling waste of energy and resources eh! Why should the West kowtow in the slightest to medieval ideo-theology? There is no gain just plenty of pain. If its really because of oil, well those controlling that resource need to sell it to keep themselves in the style to which they are accustomed and surely they’ll do that to whomsoever pays best. The Western host nations to the current influx should just apply the law of the land with no exceptions and giving no quarter. Its rather like socialising children if you don’t draw firm boundaries you often end up with social misfits.

      • Abhay

        Long term optimist…is that the same as social-progressive?

      • Drakken

        What was and is cheaper is pull a Ghengis Khan on the islamaniacs and call it a day.

  • Keith D

    If the Islamist problem was confined to the ME then there may be grounds for guarded optimism.However its not and with the large proportion resident in the UK with roots in the sub continent I’m not hopeful we’ll see much enlightenment here.We all know where the problems lie.

    • ProffessorPlum

      “We all know where the problems lie”

      No one is going stop Israel’s expansionist policies, though. Nor are they going allow dictator states that do exactly what the west and Israel dictate instal any government that would tell the west and and Israel where to get off.

      • Keith D

        Are you saying Islamism is the by product of Israeli expansionism?.Israel….approx 60 years old.Islamism….1400 years.

        Its funny how humiliated some get when a nation of a mere 7 million souls is the only self sustaining state in the region.And the only one that allows freedom of worship within its own borders.

        • Daniel Maris

          Israel – about 60 miles wide , pop about 8 million. Islam? 1.5 billion from Morocco to Malaya and beyond.

        • ProffessorPlum

          “the only one that allows freedom of worship within its own borders.”

          As usual zionist supporters have to resort to blatant lies to try to give support to their hopeless justification for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. You need to get out more, take a trip through Lebanon or Syria, if Israel’s allies haven’t destroyed all the churches yet.

          • Plum_is_an_idiot

            “You need to get out more, take a trip through Lebanon or Syria”
            Oh! so that’s where you.ve been these last two weeks. And you are still demonstrating that Plum is an idiot.

          • Drakken

            If the Israelis are doing a bit of ethnic cleansing? They sure are doing a very bad job of it. You islamaniacs keep pushing and thinking the west won’t do anything to you, those days are coming to an end, and you won’t like what is coming.

            • ProffessorPlum

              “If the Israelis are doing a bit of ethnic cleansing?”

              You obviously have no idea what the phrase means. Get an education ignoramous.

              • Drakken

                It is obvious that you are pumping out Islamic propaganda and no one is buying what your selling. You pali friends deserve everything they get and more, no country on earth would put up with being attacked on a constant basis without extreme retribution, so keep up the great work of poking that bear.

              • Plum_is_an_idiot

                “ignoramous”
                Big word for an idiot, but it describes you.

          • Keith D

            I do get out thanks very much.You do have quite a disturbing hatred for Israel.Just like the priest beheading jihadis in Syria.Or the church burners in Egypt.But no,lets deflect with spurious claims about Israeli allies in Syria instead of the subject matter..Islamism.Which as we all know is at its heart an expansionist proselytizing dogma at permanent war with human decency.
            If you want to see ethnic cleansing,just look at the fate of all those non believers under the yoke of that creed.

            • ProffessorPlum

              “You do have quite a disturbing hatred for Israel.”
              By your logic then; if someone writes that many of the people who perished at the hands of Stalin’s secret police – does that mean they hate Russia?
              If they were to add that the majority of Stalin’s secret police were jews – would that mean they hated jews, Russia, or police?
              If someone wrote that those secret police were also responsible for the deaths of clergy, raping nuns and the destruction of churches – who would they be hating there?
              If someone wrote that many jews suffered under the inquisition would that mean they hated Spain, catholics or both?
              You wrote that Isarel was the only country in the region that allowed freedom of religion. That is a false statement not an antiIsraeli one.

              • Keith D

                Oh I’m perfectly aware freedom of religion is enshrined in many constitutions.But still the persecution continues.And really ,and I’ll repeat it.The subject matter is Islamism.Not Israel,which you keep raising as somehow relevant.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “The subject matter is Islamism.Not Israel,”

                  Excuse me sweetie, but you were the one who stated that Israel was the only country in the region that allowed freedom of religion. I was just pointing out that your statement was false.

                  Now would you like to address the questions I asked you in my previous post, regarding discussing history and hatred

                • Keith D

                  The future requires us to learn from history.Not be slaves to it.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “The future requires us to learn from history.Not be slaves to it.”

                  Jolly good.

                  Now: if someone writes that many people perished at the hands of Stalin’s secret police – does that mean they hate Russia?

                  If they were to add that the majority of Stalin’s secret police were jews – would that mean they hated jews, Russia, or secret police?

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  Here goes Plum, off-subject attacking Jews. Stalin died a long time ago, as did the USSR. Plum is an idiot.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Stalin died a long time ago,”

                  Very well just for you:

                  If sometime between the years 1920 and 1953 someone wrote that many people had perished at the hands of Stalin’s secret police – would that mean they hated Russia?

                  If they were to add that the majority of Stalin’s secret police were jews – would that mean they hated jews, Russia, or secret police?

                • jjjj

                  Who would want to address you? It is said about the late great Tony Curtis that when asked how it was to kiss Marilyn Monroe (Some Like it Hot) he replied: ‘like kissing Hitler’. Debating with you isn’t like debating with Hitler.

                  It’s like debating with Streicher.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “he replied: ‘like kissing Hitler’. ”

                  I didn’t know he had kissed Hitler. Just goes to show that not all jews hated Hitler.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  Plum is an idiot and postings like this prove it.

              • jjjj

                You are an utter moron. Rod Liddle humiliated you on here, exposing your antisemitism and since then you’ve been in a sulk. Care to debate Rod again? Chortle…

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  Poor old Plum has to be here. The Telegraph booted him off unless he has returned with a new name.

              • Plum_is_an_idiot

                If anybody can decipher the logic of Plum’s arguments above, please post it.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  If someone wrote that Israel is a brutal apartheid state, would that mean they mean they hated Israel?

                  If someone wrote that many jews suffered under the inquisition, would that mean they hated Spain, catholics or both?

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  “If someone wrote that Israel is a brutal apartheid state, would that mean they mean they hated Israel?”

                  YES.

                • Drakken

                  Your apartheid nonsense is complete utter Islamic propaganda, your pali friends will hopefully become extinct the next time they decide to lob some rockets for a little jihad fun. Good bloody riddance.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  You are keeping very quiet Keith D just lurking in the background and voting for your moronic friends so you can avoid answering the question, are you?

                • Keith D

                  No.Its because you’re a dick.See ya.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  “moronic friends”
                  It takes one to know one.

              • Drakken

                What is ironic is that a muslim collaborator like you will make another Crusade and Inquisition inevitable through out Europe soon. You reap what you sow, and woe unto you and yours who openly side with the muslim savages.

          • ganef_returns

            How many synagogues are there in Syria and Lebanon? What allies of Israel have destroyed any churches in Lebanon or Syria? You just make it up as you go along.

      • Arturaski

        Pack it in now, Plum Duff. Drop the pretence that your opinions are in anyway considered and just say what you really feel.

        Where’s wicked old Israel, with its wicked ‘expansionist policies’, expanding to? I dare you to answer the question without going off-topic, off-track or off-kilter.

        If you just stopped hating Israel for a moment (actually, a bit longer than that) the pain would start to ebb away. Unless of course, you can’t help yourself. Perhaps it runs too deep.

        • ProffessorPlum

          “Where’s wicked old Israel, with its wicked ‘expansionist policies’, expanding to?”

          By the looks of it , wherever it likes.

          http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.529439?block=true

          “If you just stopped hating Israel”

          If you stopped believing everything was a matter of emotion, you may one day start to understand the real problem.

          • Augustus

            If you were a Palestinian (a non-state invented by Yasser Arafat) you would surely have to ask yourself, why should the Israelis give you land when they did that in 2005 with the Gaza strip and were rewarded with daily rocket attacks? And when did the world stop agreeing that land won in war should be given back by the victor? And as for the status of Palestinian ‘refugees’, how can you be a second or third generation Arab refugee from a war dating back to 1948 after British Mandate Palestine ceased to exist? Because there were no Palestinian citizens then, nor are there any now, as Mahmoud Abbas’ Palestine does not qualify as a state, it does not have a permanent population, no defined territory, no proper government, or the capacity to enter into relations with other states. The only borders that exist are those the Israelis permit. It has no real economy or even its own currency. It is a beggar.

            • margaret benjamin

              Very well said.

            • ProffessorPlum

              “If you were a Palestinian (a non-state invented by Yasser Arafat) ”

              Palestine certainly existsed sweetheart, which is why it appeared on maps and in school atlases up until at least the 1960s. British soldiers were stationed there.And Russian zionists would only accept Palestine as a the jewish homeland. Google Palestine stamps and you will see stamps issued there.

              “And when did the world stop agreeing that land won in war should be given back by the victor?”

              Never sweetie, because it never has been agreed that land can be aquired through war.

              http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/7D35E1F729DF491C85256EE700686136

              “And as for the status of Palestinian ‘refugees’, how can you be a second or third generation Arab refugee”

              I am not a Palestinian refugee. However if you have a problem with the definition of Palestinian refugees could I suggest you take it up with the UN which handles that sort of thing and quit your whining.

              “Palestine does not qualify as a state,”

              So you support a one state solutionthen do you sweetie?

              ” The only borders that exist are those the Israelis permit. It has no real economy or even its own currency. It is a beggar.”

              Well it does has its arm industry, which is one of the most lucrative in the world. However, the rest of that statement I agree with.

              • Hexhamgeezer

                Not so much a professor as NVQ1 Plum

              • Augustus

                The land area claimed by the Palestinians was occupied by Jordan prior to 1967. And after Jordan lost that war Israel became the occupying state. UN Security Council Resolution 242 does permit Israel to remain in occupation until there is an agreement on secure and recognized borders: “and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.” [1.(ii)]

                More relevant to what I support is what Fatah and Hamas support. Have they any real desire to give up their mission to destroy Israel and claim its territory? And if “Israel’s expansionist policies” are so detrimental to the region, as you claim, you may like to note that not a single Arab-Muslim upheaval, not Iran’s race for a nuclear bomb, not Syria’s chemical weapon-charged civil war, not Egypt’s violent repeat of its ‘democratic’ revolution, nor any strife elsewhere in the world, is even remotely connected to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. But then none of that matters to someone with a pernicious desire to delegitimize the Jewish state.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “UN Security Council Resolution 242 does permit Israel to remain in occupation until there is an agreement on secure and recognized borders: “”

                  Perhaps ypou can point to the part in UN 242 or any other UN resolution that states that Israel can continue to occupy land that doesn’t belong to it until there is a peace agreement.

                  “Have they [Hamas, Fatah] any real desire to give up their mission to destroy Israel and claim its territory?”

                  Well Hamas has implemented two ceasefires which may held if Israel hadn’t broken them. In addition Hamas has also stated that it will not pursue an armed struggle to liberate any land currently occupied by Israel.

                  The real question is does Israel have any intention of reaching a peace agreement with Palestinians?

                  At present they need to build new settlements on Palestinian land to house the existing population, if Israel is to encourage any more immigration they are going to have to find the space which also will have to be on on land belonging to its neighbours. As Israel believes it has the right to retain any land it gains through war it doesn’t really have any incentive to make peace.

                  August, You have been responding to a post I wrote in response to Arturaski. There is a post of yours below that I responded to and asked you clarify a point, do you think you could perhaps respond to that post.

                • Augustus

                  See below.

                • Drakken

                  Here, let me break this down for you and make it so simple that even you can understand it. The palis will NEVER EVER give the Israelis any peace period! They want them all dead and gone, and the savages don’t care how many palis it takes to make it happen, when those mean Israelis give the savages a little taste of their own jihad, the palis cry and whine to idiot libtards like you in the hopes that gullible westerners like you will help them regain what they never had in the first place. If you love those savages so much? Please by all means go join them in their inner struggle for a judenfrei arab land. I am sure Rachel(St. Pancake) Corrie could use some company.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  “Perhaps ypou can point to the part in UN 242 or any other UN resolution that states that Israel can continue to occupy land that doesn’t belong to it”

                  Perhaps you can point out who it does belong to and on what grounds?

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Perhaps you can point out who it does belong to and on what grounds?”

                  It most certainly doesn’t belong to Israel, which is why UN res 242 states that Israel must withdraw from it.

                  Now if you could point to the part in UN 242 or any other UN resolution that states that Israel can continue to occupy land outside the 1967 borders until there is peace conference.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  What borders? I note you ignore my question so I will repeat it. Perhaps you can point out who it does belong to and on what grounds?

                • ganef_returns

                  Interesting that Plum cannot or will not answer the question posed to him about who the west bank belongs to and on what grounds.

                • ganef_returns

                  “Perhaps you can point out who it does belong to and on what grounds?”
                  Why no answer from Plum?

              • Plum_is_an_idiot

                “Well it does has its arm industry”
                What does that mean, you who likes to criticise others for grammar and spelling? And when are you going to correct your name to professor?

                • ProffessorPlum

                  Thanks, editted

              • jjjj

                So you are going to fool people here that you somehow care about Palestinians? We know you better, Plum. You are a virulent antisemite, a conspiracy theorist blaming the Jews for everything. You forget that you claimed that Dreyfuss was guilty? You blamed the Jews for being behind the riots in Turkey and then claimed that the Jews were behind Erdogan. You are in the pay of Press TV or some other Islamofascist group.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “You forget that you claimed that Dreyfuss was guilty?”

                  No I didn’t. I asked where was the proof that he wasn’t guilty.

                  “You blamed the Jews for being behind the riots in Turkey”

                  I said there were a number of reasons, one of them the war in Syria and from which Israel benefits.

                  Do try to learn to read.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  Why are you now calling us sweetheart and sweetie? You know what your people do to gays.

                  “where was the proof that he wasn’t guilty”

                  Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreyfus_affair and read it.

                  And, pardon me if I’m wrong, but haven’t Hezbollah been declared terrorists?

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Eventually, all the accusations against Alfred Dreyfus were demonstrated to be baseless”

                  Yes but on what grounds?

                  “pardon me if I’m wrong, but haven’t Hezbollah been declared terrorists?”

                  Only by Israel’s puppet regimes – America, Canada. Not by the UN or the EU

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  “Not by the UN or the EU”
                  Try reading the British newspapers, not your Muslim ones.

                • ganef_returns

                  The European Union unanimously agreed to designate Hezbollah as a terror organization. Sanctions to follow include travel bans and asset freezes. It’s a good start, but AP points out a big flaw: only Hezbollah’s “military wing” was proscribed.

                  But the implementation would be complicated since officials would have to unravel the links between the different wings within Hezbollah’s organizational network and see who could be targeted for belonging to the military wing.

                  Top Hezbollah officials themselves dismissed distinctions between their military and social “wings” years ago.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “The European Union unanimously agreed to designate Hezbollah as a terror organization. Sanctions to follow include travel bans and asset freezes. It’s a good start, but AP points out a big flaw: only Hezbollah’s “military wing” was proscribed.”

                  Or put another way The EU ‘unanimously’ voted to designate Hezbollah’s military wing as a terrorist organization as does to any organization that tries to resists Israeli aggression.

                  Interesting though and shows the power the zionists have over our politicians.

                • ganef_returns

                  Exactly how many posters have to call you an idiot before you accept that is what you are? “Not by the UN or the EU” – you were so positive and yet so wrong – again. So in your feeble mind you blame the Zionists. Such a saddo and not much use to your masters, are you Sweetie?

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  Ganef is absolutely right, you are a saddo. I think I might edit my avatar name to Plum_is_a_ saddo. You could have found it yourself on http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/10195758/Outlawing-Hizbollah-a-mark-of-leadership-in-complex-times.html but, I forget, you are barred from the DT for your Holocaust denial and other racist comments.

                • Drakken

                  Come on muslim, put your money where your jihadist loving mouth is, and go join your hezbo brothers and really show those darn Israelis that you really mean business. I’ll get out the bourbon and cigars as I watch you meet your 72 virgins with Rachel(St. Pancake) among them.

                • Drakken

                  I foresee a Hellfire missle with your name on it in the future.

                • ganef_returns

                  But would it spell professor correctly?

                • Drakken

                  Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

              • Drakken

                Keep defending the savages over us of western civilization, you will soon find that you are on the wrong side of the fence.

              • ganef_returns

                “Google Palestine stamps and you will see stamps issued there”

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postage_stamps_and_postal_history_of_Palestine

                Stamps issued by the British Mandate of Palestine ceased to be used in May 1948.

            • allymax bruce

              Augustus, haven’t you heard of the EU funds disallowance, and official rejection of the illegal land-grab in Palestine?
              You need to bone up on international law, and its Zeitgeist !

              • Augustus

                The EU can’t even get its own economic house in order. And doesn’t it handle its own Muslim populations well? Europe is so certain about what Israel’s borders ought to be that it is going to ram its view down the Jewish people’s throats via boycott and discrimination, because, of course, Europe simply knows what’s best for the Jews and the Middle East. Because in the warped weltanschauung of the European Union it is completely logical to pressure Israel and kowtow to the Arabs.

                Catherine Ashton is delicately tongue-tied about the upheavals in Egypt. except, of course the fate of Mohammed Morsi. She is also perplexed by the sharp increase in Iranian nuclear fuel production despite the election of their new ‘moderate’ poster-boy Rohani. But fear not, Ms Ashton is truly hard at work where it counts; wrestling with those damn Israeli settlements. They need to be boycotted. Yes, don’t we all love that even handed, judicious, European Union.

                • allymax bruce

                  Augustus, you make the popular argument, ‘for’ the EU ; and eloquently clear. But, and it’s a big but as my granny Bruce would say, there are always 3 ways/’moves’ that be considered; is this a ploy by the EU Marxists to ‘facilitate’ Israel to entrench their illegal, (1967 borders), ‘settlements’ policy to outright takeover of Palestine, with ethnic cleansing?
                  Never believe ‘the politicians’ first, and popular policy; it invariably at most a conning ‘inverse-convergent policymaking’ ruse, in the guise of a popular perspective. And, at least, a worthless popular knee-jerk accommodation.

                • Augustus

                  Not that the Western media cares much, but there’s been a lot of fierce fighting in the Sinai Desert recently. That’s because those wonderful Palestinians have been murdering and plundering there. A few days ago they shot a rocket at a bus full of Egyptian workers. There were at least three dead. These Palestinians call themselves ‘ freedom fighters ‘ because they’re supporters of deposed President Morsi, and they’re cross with the Egyptian army. And how did these Islamic Fascists get there? They got there because Morsi opened up the border. These are the kind of people who would eventually have formed Morsi’s army, but luckily the Egyptian army understood this. But now leader of the Muslim Brotherhood is threatening the army with the formation of a free Egyptian army. Well good luck with that! Egypt isn’t Syria. Fascists!

                • allymax bruce

                  Ok, here’s the rub ; let’s just say, for arguments sake, that the EU are influenced by pro Zionist-Marxist factions, and anti Zionist-Marxist factions, both wanting a ban on all funds to Israel because of the ‘outstanding issues’ I’ve already described, but both factions have a completely opposite projected outcome of the EU funds disallowance policy; by any of the 3 means / ‘moves’ I’ve already described. This would mean from your argument perspective, the anti faction would relish the disruption in the middle east, because it means Israel is forced onto more entrenched policies, just to protect themselves; which, inevitably mean eventual and guaranteed war in the middle east. However, the pro faction want the same policy, by different means / ‘moves’, of an Israel pre-emptive strike policy, to avoid the anti faction means / ‘moves’ outcome. So, same policy, for both pro & anti EU factions, but with opposing means / ‘moves’, which provide said different outcomes; is this EU policy what either Israel, or the Islamists, want? In whose interests is this EU policy, regardless of either pro, or anti factions outcomes? There’s more to international politics than mere international relations. It’s Prisoners Dilemma for realpolitik! In other words, what one faction say they want, could be the complete opposite of their desired outcome!

                • Augustus

                  I don’t see any of this EU banning policy in terms of war games, but what I do see in what the EU is doing engaging in boycotts, divestment and sanctions against any Israeli goods or services produced or undertaken beyond the 1967 borders, is state-sponsored anti-Semitism pure and simple. Of course, Arab boycotts of Zionist institutions and Jewish businesses began even before Israel’s founding as a state, and a boycott was adopted by the Arab League almost immediately after the formation of Israel in 1948, but it certainly sums up EU foreign policy in a nutshell: While the rest of the region is burning with flames fanned by a deadly mixture of Western inaction and ideology, women are being raped left, right and centre in Egypt and Syria, and Christians are being driven out or slaughtered with abandon in both these locations, all that Christian Europe is capable of coming up with is to disseminate that great lie of all time; that the core issue of instability in the ME, and no doubt in many other parts beyond, are the malevolent threats of the Jewish families and businesses in Judea and Samaria, and the only way to stop that malevolence and violence in the region is not to indirectly fund any more scientific research or productive commercial activity by Israelis who live or work over the Green Line. They’ve been singled out as the real obstacles to peace; those Jewish people, goods and services in the so-called ‘occupied territories’.

                  Yet the EU continues to pour tons of money into an economically and politically corrupt Palestinian Authority (well over US$7 billion in the last 20 years), aside from funds contributed separately by individual EU countries and additional support for UNRWA. This includes everything from training and equipment for the PA’s thuggish police forces, salaries for tens of thousands of PA bureaucrats, towers and studios for the viciously anti-Semitic and martyr-glorifying Pal-TV station, and hundreds of millions of euros for new PA textbooks and maps which deny any ancient Jewish claim to Jerusalem and Israel. But then Europe has a traditional knack for judging and moving Jews. They’re quite experienced at banning Jews from schools and universities, depriving Jews of scholarships, and restricting Jews to specific settlements.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “but what I do see in what the EU is doing engaging in boycotts, divestment and sanctions against any Israeli goods ”

                  Apart from the fact that the statement is false; arten’t sanctions the normal first step against those who are breach in of UN resolutions?

                • Drakken

                  There is no occupation dumbazz. Can’t wait until you muzzys and their supporters get what you deserve.

                • allymax bruce

                  Augustus, very well; it seems all sides, have got so used-to playing both ends at once, as co-latteral policy, the Truth is the only casulty.

                • Drakken

                  The only casualty is you have sympathy for a bunch of savages who deserve their fate. The Israelis are of us, western civilization, so get it through your thick Scottish skull for once.

                • allymax bruce

                  Drakken, tell me if I’m wrong; if you do then I’ll change my thinking & opinions. Right, Zionists own the MSM, of which, they try to force national governments into Israel compliant policymaking; hence, why many countries have now clamped down on the power of the MSM in their national politics. Next, the Zionists own all the financial institutions, national governments national banks, (Fed, BoE, IMF, World Bank, ECB), and also try to force same national governments into Israel compliant policymaking. In-deed, most of the middle east conflicts are Israel compliant policymaking; even the EU is ‘lobbied’ heavily by these Zionist NGO ‘s! Like I say, if I’m wrong in my opinions; if you can argue I’m wrong, then I’ll retract everything I think, and change my opinions to agree with your argument. I’m a fair, open-minded guy, and it’s now your turn to argue your opinions, and I’ll be fair and open-minded when I consider them.

                • Drakken

                  Holy jumping cheese and rice! Let me tell you are WRONG! There is no Zionist conspiracy, the Zionist don’t own the banks, or the IMF or have anything to do with fiscal policies period, boards of directors do have and direct policies. Ole Maggie Thatcher said it best, the problem with socialism is that sooner or later, you run out of other peoples money. Import the 3rd world you become the 3rd world, and no, it is not a jewish plot to do so. The problem is self hating,self loathing lefty/communist that think it is a really great idea to rub the natives noses in diversity and call it good. What they will have wrought upon us is a Balkans on steroids and believe me that day is coming sooner rather than later. So instead of throwing one of your natural western allies(Israel) under the bus in order to appease your muslim invaders, you might want to embrace and hold them as allies. If anyone is holding us in the west hostage and extorting us, it is the OIC who are using the demographics weapon against us. Lets see, 8-10 million jews in the world, and 1.5 billion muslims, you do the math.

                • allymax bruce

                  I agree with your 2nd paragraph, but you haven’t argued your 1st paragraph at all. But I’m still open to future argument.
                  The problem with arguing these issues, is, they are usually held by highly emotive people, who tend to force their emotive ideals, polarized beliefs, and preposterous prejudices into their arguments; negating to posit an actual argument. Plenty research done on Zionism on the Internet.

                • Drakken

                  Do you believe everything the internet anti-so-called-Zionist tell you? Ok here is how you diversify your thought process in that regard, follow the money and you will see it is coming from the OIC, not so called Zionist organizations. Now it is the time for you to do due diligence.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “That’s because those wonderful Palestinians have been murdering and plundering there.”

                  These would be the Palestinians who you claimed a few posts ago don’t exist.

                  How do you know what group they represent? they could be Israeli false flag attacks for all we know. Now that there is plenty of water in the Sinai and given Israel’s desire to get its hands on it, we could well see, at some time in the future, Israel coming up with an excuse to occupy the Sinai.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  ” Israel’s desire to get its hands on it”
                  On what do you base that? Israel is self-sufficient in water, fresh from the Kinneret, fresh from underground, and desalinated from the Mediterranean. Israel EXPORTS water to other countries.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Israel is self-sufficient in water, fresh from the Kinneret,”

                  Dreamer.

                  “The economy of water in Israel is on the edge of catastrophe”:

                  http://www.israelweather.co.il/english/page2.asp?topic_id=70&topic2_id=79&sub_topic_id=1

                  Only through its control of the Golan and it diverting water away from the Jordan. You also forgot the Sheeba Farms, which belongs to Lebanon and is being used to supply the northern settlements. Itsi ntensive farming practices have seriosly depleted and polluted the coastal aquifier to the extent that is toxic. The West Bank aqifier is also seriously depleted for the same reason.

                  Even with those resources Israel has a serious water shortage:

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Israel EXPORTS water to other countries.”

                  Which ones and how much?

                  ” Israel is self-sufficient in water,”

                  Only as a result of its occupation and it still isn’t enough for its increasing demands.

                  http://www.israelweather.co.il/english/page2.asp?topic_id=70&topic2_id=79&sub_topic_id=1

                • ganef_returns

                  I, as an Israeli, will answer your questions on water when you answer the question posed by Plum_is_an_idiot “Perhaps you can point out who it does belong to [west bank] and on what grounds?”

                  However, I note your referenced document is dated 2005.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “”Perhaps you can point out who it does belong to [west bank] and on what grounds?””

                  Prioir to six day war the WB water resources were shared (if you are not sure of the meaning of the word ‘share’ use a dictionary), after the war Israel took total control of it.

                  In fact Israelis have far more water per capita than Palestinians who have to pay many times more per litre than Israelis.

                  Under the 1978 Camp David agreement – an agreement where Palestinians were not even consulted, Israel was given automony over the West Bank and its resources – including the aquifer- for 5 years at the end of which Israel was supposed to return automony to the Palestinians – another peace agreement Israel reneged on.

                  “!I note your referenced document is dated 2005.”

                  The date at the top is today’s.
                  Regardless, I note that since then god has not provided them with any new water resources and according to the report the region is in desperate need of water and the crisis will really set in around 2020.

                  http://www.israelweather.co.il/english/page2.asp?topic_id=70&topic2_id=79&sub_topic_id=1

                • ganef_returns

                  “Perhaps you can point out who it does belong to [west bank] and on what grounds?”

                  Were you born thick or you just not get any education past the Koran? My question was about the west bank, not its water resources, as well you know, but that is a question you simply don’t have an answer to that meets your agenda? I do understand the word share but not the word “prioir” or, even, the word professor.

                  You sit there in you mosque, or whatever, and have never visited the region whereas I live just 10 miles west of the west bank and do understand. Lets be straight, Israel supplies water to both the west bank and Gaza and the WB squanders it. A few weeks back they were offered a new, and free, aquifer. but declined it as it would also serve Ariel. If I waste money beyond my allocation, the extra is charged at triple price.

                  We are becoming less short of water, the Kinneret had a very good winter and is at a much higher level. Water from here supplies Israel, the west bank and Jordan as well. Significant investments (ongoing) have raised desalination but Gaza declined the free offer of some of this for political reasons..

                  As for the date on your reference, the date at the top always will be today (check it tomorrow) but the article, if you had read it properly, suggests 8 years ago and, most certainly, does not record the big rise in level in either the lake or the desalination plants. Judging by the big increase in water fountains, at least a dozen in my town, water is not too much of a problem.

                  Let’s repeat the question for a fourth time, raised initially by someone else, “Perhaps you can point out who it does belong to [west bank] and on what grounds?”

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “Were you born thick”

                  Sorry we seem to be talking about two subjects at once. I would have thought as an Israeli you would know that THE WEST BANK DOES NOT BELONG TO ISRAEL, which is why all settlements are deemed illegal under international law. And you have the gall to call me thick.

                  The West Bank was destined to become part of the Palestinian state, but that is never going to happen. Eventually it will belong to Israel.

                  ” Lets be straight, Israel supplies water to both the west bank and Gaza and the WB squanders it.”

                  Well isn’t that kind of them: You forgot to mention that per capita a Palestinian receives at least 3 times less water than an Israeli and has to pay at least 4 times more for it per litre. This the same water that is theirs as right or was until Israel started colonizing the WB after the six day war and took total control of all water in the area, even that falling from the skies, which it is illegal for them to collect.

                  In Gaza the situation is worse. In both areas it is subject to whim of people like you, so I expect you can imagine the true situation.

                  “A few weeks back they were offered a new, and free, aquifer.”

                  A new aquifier? had someone buried a bottle of Evian or something?

                  Water from here supplies Israel, the west bank and Jordan as well. Significant investments (ongoing) have raised desalination but Gaza declined the free offer of some of this for political reasons..

                  “Water from here supplies Israel, the west bank and Jordan as well. Significant investments (ongoing) have raised desalination but Gaza declined the free offer of some of this for political reasons..”

                  Jordan gets 55 million cu mts as when Israel can afford to part with it. Jordan used to be supplied by the River Jordan but when Israel put its National Water Carrier in service the Jordan started to dry up and 10s of thousands lost their livelihoods.

                  As for your pipe dreams about more water from desalination. Read the article I posted.

                  http://www.israelweather.co.il

                • Drakken

                  What’s the matter hadji? Don’t like the fact the Jews gave your muslims a nice azz kicking? As for your so call international law, it carries no weight, national sovereignty always takes precedence. So good luck with your little whine fest. I see your still not over there helping your pali buddies? Why is that?

                • jjjj

                  You dishonest shill for CAABU. Everything you have written is a lie. You Islamists will never learn that peace and cooperation is better than war. That’s why your ilk lost in ’48 and ’67. Of course, in the interim your ilk tried to sabotage Israeli water sources in the North or in the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem, you converted tombstones into paving stones.
                  Pluski, you and your Islamist ilk are the source of all the world’s problems. No Islamists, no problems. You people need to get civilized

                • jjjj

                  Why should people here debate with an avowed Judeophobe? You blame the Jews for everything inc. the Holocaust that befell them. You don’t believe Dreyfuss was innocent.
                  Your ilk will have your Nuremberg 1946 again.

                • Drakken

                  The only thing those savage palis deserve is a rich taste of Carthage and a hearty good riddance.

                • Drakken

                  The EU is being held hostage by the OIC, and the OIC reminds them all the time that there are millions of hostile muslims in our midst that can go jihad on us at a given moment.

              • jjjj

                Another neo-Nazi masquerading here. Time for your meds Brucie.

              • Drakken

                You keep quoting international law as if it holds any weight? It doesn’t. We are sovereign citizens of sovereign states, not people of the world, so called international law does not usurp our sovereign countries laws and self interest.

              • Drakken

                What illegal land grab? To the victors go the spoils, and the old west bank used to belong to Jordan since they lost it in a war they started.

          • Drakken

            We do understand the real problem, wherever islam goes, there is always bloodshed, chaos and disorder. Even the Buddist in Burma have had enough of the savages.

          • Amagg

            Giving back the Sinai, pulling out of the Golan heights, and evacuating Gaza do not seem to square with the “expansionist” policies you speak of. Sure, settlements are expanding in the West Bank, and they should be halted, but this talk of expansionism is silly. When it came into existence, Israel had the same land area as New Jersey and the Arab lands were the size of all of the US. It is hard to sympathize with neighbors who have wanted to annihilate such a small country for such a long time. If anything, the “expansionist” tactics and strategy historically has been on the other side: the fact that the day Israel began, Arab countries tried to destroy it, and then again in 1973. They cannot get over the fact that even though they attacked and tried to destroy a country, they were the ones repelled and defeated in the end–in fact, they had such a hard time swallowing it in ’47-’49 that they expelled their Jewish populations. I do not see these populations of refugees being shunned and mistreated in Israel the way Palestinians are in other Arab countries, which claim to be on their side but seem rather more concerned with wiping another country off the map. There is no talk of their right of return or anything like that. It is also a high farce that the historical-glories obsessed Arab countries mention expansionism as the reason for their actions. The Arabs, as they well know, started in the Peninsula and “expanded,” quite literally, outward, conquering far more than Israel has ever tried, and paying little homage to many of the rights of the previous populations and their religions.

        • Plum_is_an_idiot

          “I dare you to answer the question without going off-topic, off-track or off-kilter”
          He already has. The subject matter is Islam and Islamists. It won’t take Treebrain too long to join in.

      • Plum_is_an_idiot

        Just look who’s back after a break of two weeks? Presumably you were getting briefed on your next lot of anti-Israel postings?
        So you start here when the subject is Islam and Islamists. That is no deterrent to you, though, is it? Please explain what Israel has to do with this article?

      • Tom M

        Oh come on! Israel’s expansionist policies? Some expansionist policy, a few housing estates on the West Bank (with which I totally disagree with). I fear that it is the arab nations that have the expansionist policies as far as Israel goes.

        • ProffessorPlum

          “Some expansionist policy, a few housing estates on the West Bank”

          Are you deliberately ignoring, besides what you you claim to be ‘few housing estates’, the land Israel illegally occupies in Lebanon, Syria and the 2 Saudi Islands: Tiran and Sanafir?

          Also if you look at the land allocated to Israel under te partition you will see that its expansion in Palestine is a lot more than ‘a few housing estates’.

          Are yo also trying to that if Mexico were to move into Texas and build a few small housing estates for mexicans only it would be ok?

          • Tom M

            I think I said I disagreed with the housing estates on the West Bank but refer to the implied scale of “expansionist” in your original post.

            When I refer to countries “expansionist” policies I think of Hitler’s thoughs on Russia or Russia’s thoughts on Europe or China invading Tibet.

            As far as expansionist policies go in the arab world think Iraq/ Kuwait or Iraq/Iran or Jordan/West Bank or Egypt/Gaza strip or of course Arab(any)/Israel. These “expansions” have all been tried and failed. Totally different scale and intent from Israel in the West Bank.

            • ProffessorPlum

              “When I refer to countries “expansionist” policies”

              regardless who YOU think of; israel’s expansion is not confined to a few housing estates on the West Bank. It includes a large part of the Golan and the precious water resources found there, not the mention the agricultural benefits from the land.

              Sheeba Farms in Lebanon, which is also a substantial source of water.

              The West Bank which is also a valuable water resource.

              And the Islands of Tiran and Sanafir which belong to Saudi Arabia.

              I asked you — Are you trying to say that if Mexico were to move into Texas and build a few small housing estates for mexicans only it would be ok?

              • Tom M

                I think the Mexicans tried that already. I think if you wish to use that analogy then it would be more apt to imply that the Texans would set up housing estates in Mexico would it not?

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “I think the Mexicans tried that already. ”

                  As I am sure you are aware I am not talking about economic migrants seeking work.

                  I am talking about a governmment sanctioned colonizaion supported by a millitary that is prepared to kill anyone who tries to stand in the way of the colonization of their land.

                  So keep that in mind and now to try to answer the question.

                • Plum_is_an_idiot

                  Expansionist policies by Israel? Remind me of the 2011 census figures for parts of England where the indigenous population are now in the minority. And parts of London are no-go areas for non-Muslims.

                • Tom M

                  Good god you do go on don’t you. When I referred to your comment about Mexicans I was referring to their attempt to annex Texas. Remember the Alamo and all that. That seemed to me to be more historically analogous to me, sorry if you didn’t understand my perspective.

                  My reference to your analogy had nothing to do with economic migrants at all that was your invention.

                  So for the last time, I do not think that the Israelis should be building housing estates on the West Bank. Got it yet?

                  I only referred to, what I think is your exaggeration of the term “expansionist” when applied to Israel on the West Bank.
                  It does not compare, as I have outlined already, with other nations historical “expansionist” policies.
                  I read recently, perhaps you can confirm it, that as far as international law goes territory occupied during a war can be annexed by the occupying force. If this is indeed true then I am even more surprised that (all) the arabs have started wars in 48,67,73 etc against Israel with a clear expansionist agenda, were beaten in all of them and still lay claim to the territories they lost.

                • ProffessorPlum

                  “I read recently, perhaps you can confirm it, that as far as

                  international law goes territory occupied during a war can be annexed by the occupying force. ”

                  Yeah you read it on here and you wrote it. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

                  As for starting wars you are also wrong there too. The 48 war was an attempt to stop Israeli expansion and the ethnic cleansing. 67 was started by Israel when it bombed Egypt, Syria and Jordan. 73 was started by the Arabs but they had warned Israel that it would happen if they did not get off the land it illegally occupied in 67.

                  With regard to the 6 day war you may find this interesting – its a little bit biased and amongst other things omits that Israel was also trying to divert water from Kinnaret.

                  http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3611488,00.html

                  “I only referred to, what I think is your exaggeration of the term “expansionist” when applied to Israel on the West Bank.”

                  Considering as it hasn’t finished whether or not the term exaggerated is relevant is yet to be seen. When I pointed out to you that Israel’s expansionism had aslo netted it parts of Syria, Lebanon,and Saudi Arabia you hadn’t specified the region you were refering to.

                • Tom M

                  1948 war was the arab response to the recommendation of the UN for the creation of Israel. The world representatives all had a vote (UK abstained). It was carried that the region should be divided into two states. That is what civilised people do when they have a dispute, take it to arbitration. The arabs didn’t like the result and their reponse to this was to start a war (several in fact). When I say arabs I mean all the surrounding arab countries and some further away like Morocco.

                  1967 war, Egyptian President Nasser demanded the UN remove peace keeping troops from Sinai (put there after 1948 war). Then mobilised and moved his army into the area (to the wise mobilisation is normally taken as a sign of impending war).

                  May 2nd UAR blockaded the gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping (this in itself is an act of war as described by the UN)

                  Same time; President Nasser gave a speech in Yemen to trade unionists saying that he had a military agreement with Syria, Morocco and Algeria to “push Israel into the sea”.

                  May 30th Egypt and Jordan signed a military support pact against Israel.

                  June 4th King Hussein made this agreement public and extended it to include Iraq.

                  June 5th Israel took the initiative and won the war.

                  1973 war Egypt launched a surprise attack to push the IDF out of Sinai. They failed. They lost another war.

                  A definition of madness: doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
                  The two things that I conclude motivate arabs.
                  1) winning
                  2) revenge for losing

                  I love people like yourself. My passion is history and I’ve got all day to discuss it. I just need someone like you to tell it to.

                • Drakken

                  Funny how you muzzys and their supporters cry and whine when they lose wars they start and then ask for sympathy, to the victors go the spoils, get used to it.

              • Drakken

                Sounds like your tears are running plenty for your muslim brethren, here let me get you a tissue while I LMAO!

                • ProffessorPlum

                  Seems like you shouldn’t have left a spce between the ‘I’ and the ‘L’ and you should have put the ‘O’ before the ‘A’.

                  And I bet yours isn’t the only one you lick

                • jjjj

                  Are you so mentally challenged that you can’t spell your own name; can’t spell ‘space’; and have to resort to stupid word games?
                  Plumski, please note that PressTV or whichever fascist Islamist group you shill for want their money’s worth.

          • Drakken

            Hey dumbass, you muzzy supporters lost the wars you started, then come crying to us on how mean those Israelis are. To the victors go the spoils.

          • jjjj

            You dishonest moron. You seemingly forget the war of extermination your co-religionists fought against Israel after rejecting Partition in 1948. And it’s Egypt controlling those two islands you mention. How did you come up with Israel?

            But what can you expect from an antisemite, a believer in the Protocols, someone who thinks Dreyfuss was guilty.

      • ganef_returns

        What has this got to do with the subject matter of this blog?

  • IvanTudorWho

    I said yesterday in a different context “An end to butt-kissing of the Islamist far-right would be a good start, and many Muslims would probably thank us for it.” So this is a bit of a ray of light, worth reading beginning to end (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/18/letter-taliban-leader-malala-yousafzai-girls). And this type of bravery in a forum that I tend to associate with said far-right …

    • Colin

      “An end to butt-kissing of the Islamist far-right would be a good start”

      You mean far-left, surely?

      • IvanTudorWho

        Not getting into definitions. I mean far-right, in the way that the term is customarily used. This custom may be unfair to the right in general, but that’s not my problem. The overall point is made very well here: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/seanthomas/100227116/the-strange-death-of-fascist-europe-and-how-the-left-wants-to-revive-it/.

        • Colin

          It’s a bit lazy.

          Ask any homosexual who existed in cuba, up until the old evil monster went into aspic.

          • IvanTudorWho

            Alright, but equally there are strong parallels between Islamists and Southern European Catholic fascist parties who explicitly built their support on traditional conservative values that would usually be described as Right. Even if many people in the modern UK with such values actually vote Labour.

            Oh, crap, I have broken my promise not to get into definitions. As you have caught me out I shall thumb up your post even though I disagree with it!

            • Drakken

              When one of those southern catholics decides to blow himself up or fly a plane into a building, let the rest od us know ok? Until then the religion of bloody pieces is the danger to us all.

              • IvanTudorWho
                • Drakken

                  The EDL knows it is over the target by the amount to flak the left is throwing at it. The EDL is the ONLY group in the UK that is pointing out the obvious, and the left whistles past the graveyard in the hopes that no one will notice, I call it suicide by the left/regressives.

                • IvanTudorWho

                  Well, you were in my town today, and I’m not sure that many people felt either threatened or enlightened by you. Apart from the predictable Lefty dogwhistling, most people either saw it as a bit of fun or a mild inconvenience. On balance, I dislike UAF more, if only because of the sheer self-righteousness with which they say crazy things, but even they didn’t seem to send out their worst today. Overall verdict on the day – mildly nasty, but Birmingham will live to see another day …

                • Drakken

                  There is no longer room for the middle ground, no more room to sit on the fence. It just upsets your middle class sensibilities that some working class folks have the bloody temerity to point out to the rest of you what is blatantly obvious. There will be bloodshed and lots of it.

                • IvanTudorWho

                  “It just upsets your middle class sensibilities”. Spot on the mark there.

                • Drakken

                  Well then, have a cup of tea and ignore the Islamic problem in the hopes it will all go away.

  • JabbaTheCat

    Ah, Zoghbi and Al-Hammouri, the Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton of the muslim world…

  • Ogmius

    Whilst declarations of the death of political islam may be premature, it has certainly been seen for what it is by a huge chunk of the population in Egypt at least. Jihadists and other extremists have obtained far more media exposure than before, and this leads us to believe that political islam is on the rise. However, the Tamarod petition shows that there is a massive rejection: ordinary citizens here are not moved by ideology, but by the values of the original 2011 revolution – bread, freedom, and social justice.

    The Muslim Brotherhood gave them none of these. Ordinary people here don’t give a rat’s posterior for notions of a caliphate, or sharia law.

    The trick pulled by the Ikhwan was analogous to the late Iranian leader’s famous dictum “either you are for Khomeini, or you are against God”. The Egyptians are naturally devout people, and the trick in part worked – but only once.

    But neither is it accurate to suggest that there are only two choices, Islamic ideology or capitalism. There are many different currents in the opposition movement, hence their current disunity.

  • Lungfish

    this is lovely cheese Dougie http://www.charlesmartell.com/

    • anotherjoeblogs

      Blessed are the cheesemakers ( Of course, not to be taken literally. All manufacturers of dairy products are equally blessed )

  • Lungfish

    You big feckin poof- go and get a job on a building site and see how the real people are going to sit back and get fucked — duh

    • Lungfish

      no insult intended obviously, but really, you idiots in the meedja are a bit daft

      • Baron

        Listen, my blogging friend, you’ve had enough, go have a cold shower, but you’re, of course, right.

  • Old Fox

    True, the establishment is desperate to believe that some part of its “end of history” scenario survives; that people are relinquishing ideologies for the sake of worldly goods and that the appeal of pleasure will trump the clarion call of old style religion. In fact, I am quite as desperate to believe it as they, since it is upon this same body of assumptions that they have not only fought the “liberal interventionist” wars of recent years, but have opened the immigration floodgates. Should Islamic opinion remain immune to the charms and blandishments of consumer heaven, we are in big trouble. This, however, is where I begin to differ with you, Mr Murray. You seem too certain that Islamic extremists will win the day – at least in the Middle East. In the light of Morsi’s very welcome ejection – which only prigs and useful idiots will deplore – we can see a liberal tide gathering under the very feet of our enemies and it is, perhaps, a tide which will engulf them. Just in case it does not, however, we need very quietly but very firmly to reconstruct those aforementioned floodgates. It seems to me that politics is frequently a matter of careful hedging and not always for dishonourable reasons.

  • laurence

    Oh, Douglas. Would that these numpties had read their Swift: ‘It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into,’

    That too is the difference between the Moslems and Mr Adams. The latter, despite what you might think of him, was amenable to reason, because his ’cause’ is, was, ultimately political. Mr Finkelstein’s gloss has, therefore, little argumentative merit. It is another example of the current spurious thought-model that sees every problem, every instance of human behaviour, as an instance of economics.

    • Colin

      “That too is the difference between the Moslems and Mr Adams. The latter, despite what you might think of him, was amenable to reason, because his ’cause’ is, was, ultimately political.”

      Yes, that and the trappings of wealth and office. The classic marxist elite backstop.

  • Daniel Maris

    Yes, this is a problem with looking at politics through the prism of pragmatism.

    Islam may make no sense to us, but it makes a great deal of sense to people in the Middle East who (mostly incorrectly) see themselves as “Arabs” – people on the winning side of history with a great deal of entitlement. For a jobless, talentless male youth, Islam – with at minimum its promise of domination over women – may be the only thing shoring up his self-esteem.

    • William Reid Boyd

      Yes, but more than just his self-esteem it may also offers him his only prospect of a livelihood. Given that there is no established church of Islam, you have the root of the problem in these extremist clerics competing for congregations.

      The United Nations has reported on human development in the Arab World http://www.arab-hdr.org/ . The principle identified ‘deficits’ are freedom, knowlege and women’s emancipation. Of course Islam is the by far the major obstacle in overcoming each of these deficits.

      • Daniel Maris

        Absolutely…Islam is like bindweed wrapping itself around the roots of family, clan and economic activity. This is why an intelligent policy for the democracies is to create alternative sources of livelihood and self-esteem.

    • hellosnackbar

      You are quite right !
      They are so delusional with the embrace of imaginary Allah through their sacerdotal dumbos; that they are incapable of common sense.
      As you say their cowardly misogyny is an aspect of their depraved culture.

  • allymax bruce

    Douglas, it’s not only the Establishment’s ‘Press’ puppets, those you call ‘columnists’, that have misunderstood this situation; many EU governments like France, Italy, and Spain, have been sold a pig-ina-poke by their EU masters also. The countries of North Africa had to be disrupted first, so the middleast countries would have guerilla fighters ready as ‘religious mercenaries’. And, upon this premise you have your ideologues (religious), and capitalists (mercenaries). Both, one in the same. Isaiah tells all this and it also tells you how it will end. It is, because you don’t read God’s Word, you don’t know. What man makes in his own name, he understands. What God has Made, in His own Name, He Knows.

    • ProffessorPlum

      Ah; you know, too

      • Arturaski

        Stop pretending you understood a word that moron writes.

        You’re a fraud and a troll.

  • Austin Barry

    The interesting thing about ideology is that it travels well and becomes more robust in its resolve. Irish republicanism is less uncertain and less prepared to compromise in Boston and New York than it is in Northern Ireland, and certainly than it is in the Irish Republic.

    Similarly, Islamism will, and has, migrated to the Dar-al-Harb (the West) without losing any of its robust dislike, or hatred, of we infidels, our constructs and conceits.

    That we can, somehow, peacefully accommodate Islam within our cities and systems, is an idiocy on the part of our ruling elite. Most of the rest of us know better.

    • Baron

      Austin, the oil will either stop gashing out at some date in the future, or we will come up with a substitute, When that happens, and the money runs out for the caliphate warriors the question of accommodation will vanish at a stroke.

      It would also help, of course, if, in the meantime, we regained at least some pride in our culture and belief system.

      • Daniel Maris

        We will come up with a cheaper substitute sooner than you think.

      • Dogsnob

        They have this very much in mind and that is why they are putting so much of their oil money into buying-up businesses and real-estate in the West. They are not daft.

    • Frank P

      Comprehensive consistency and clarity, Austin. Pleased to see that you are still at the sharp end.

      • Austin Barry

        Hope all goes well, Frank. Good to see you back.

  • Augustus

    Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, the Muslim Brotherhood preacher featured on Al-Jazeera Arabic, which is owned, funded and operated, as are Al-Jazeera English and the new Al-Jazeera America, by the rulers of Qatar, has called for the killing of Americans in Iraq. He promotes suicide bombings against Israelis. Most recently, he issued a fatwa declaring the Egyptian military’s removal of President Morsi a violation of Shariah law. But interestingly the sheikh’s son, Abdul Rahman Yusuf al-Qaradawi, calls himself a ‘revolutionary’ who went to Tahrir Square in 2011 to oppose the dictatorship of Hosni Mubarak, and then again last month to oppose the authoritarianism of Morsi. He wrote (translated by MEMRI) in an Egyptian newspaper: “I did not engage in demanding to implement the Shariah, and I did not think I had the right to impose the Shariah on anyone. Moreover, I engaged in encouraging the people to be free men, since freedom and Shariah are equal in my eyes. … It is time for this nation to complete the difficult mission and separate religion and state, so that we know when the ones who are speaking are clerics or statesmen.”

    And what about the video on realnews24.com in which a 12-year-old Boy, Ali Ahmed, explains Egypt’s Political Crisis, and why millions of his countrymen have refused to do as the Muslim Brotherhood commands: “We didn’t get rid of a military regime to replace it with a fascist theocracy,” he says. The puzzled interviewer asks him to define that term. He does so without skipping a beat: “A fascist theocracy is when you manipulate the religion and enforce extremist regulations in the name of religion, even though the religion doesn’t command that.” He adds that women “are half of the society. How come there are only seven ladies in the Constituent Assembly, six of whom are Islamists?”

    Wow! Something may be beginning to take shape in the Middle East.

    • Daniel Maris

      Yes, I have been heartened by recent events to think that there is a real democratic movement in Egypt. It may not be very strong – it might command the support of say 20-25% of the people, but it is enough to build on.

      • Augustus

        There is a very real contrast between the aspirations of the Muslim Brotherhood and the liberal democratic groups in Egypt, with the military, no doubt, siding with the latter. But this struggle may very well ensure a prolonged internal struggle that could last for years. The question is, how will the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamic groups deal with being ousted from power? Will they be satisfied with a purely political struggle? Will they carry out terrorist attacks to destabilize the regime? Will a civil war break out? If the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamic groups choose active resistance the foreseeable future will be characterized by regime weakness in Egypt. The regime won’t be able to control parts of the country, mainly the Sinai Peninsula and Islamist strongholds, and there will be a growth of armed anti-regime militias.

    • stephen rothbart

      Yes there have always been voices of reason among the Arab world, and this boy was savvy and knowledgeable.

      But the Middle East is made up, not from States but from tribes and clans who for over a millennium have fought each other for control of trade, water, agriculture and now oil. Now there is a fight between the various religious factions.

      United, they are not.

      Even Turkey, for so long held up as a beacon of Islamic modernity, is sinking back into savagery and oppression because its leaders choose Islam over secularism.

      We shall see how Egypt plays out, but it is a financial mess and unable even to feed its own people. The rest, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq are basket cases and Jordan is in danger of being taken over by outside elements involved with Assad and the Muslim Brotherhood.

      This is not a recent development. The Arab world was dominated by Turkey for centuries and was unable to unite properly to free themselves.

      Their society tends to function only under the rule of dictatorships or kingdoms, backed up by oppression and violence towards those that challenge the status quo.

      To borrow a phrase, “It’s a kind of democracy Captain but not as we know it.”

      • Augustus

        Islamic society has all the wrong ingredients to become a developed society. It is mostly intolerant, vindictive, cruel and hypocritical. And the hypocrisy of the authorities of that religion is truly repellent because they profess tolerance but practice its exact opposite.

    • ProffessorPlum

      “He promotes suicide bombings against Israelis.”

      Which suicide bombings has he promoted?

      • ProffessorPlum

        “He promotes suicide bombings against Israelis.”

        Which suicide bombings has he promoted?

        • Plum_is_an_idiot

          A new first, Plum is writing to himself.

          • Augustus

            And now, hoist with his own petard!

        • hellosnackbar

          Is the FF within your name a satirical profane acronym or yourself?

      • Augustus

        This from discoveringthenetworks.org (just one of many references):

        “One of Qaradawi’s foremost passions is his deep and unwavering hatred for, and distrust of, the Jewish people. He has unambiguously justified Palestinian suicide bombings as legitimate responses to alleged “Zionist” aggression and occupation. In an April 2002 sermon, Qaradawi said: “The Israelis might have nuclear bombs but we have the children bomb and these human bombs must continue until liberation…. Calling for peace at this time is treason.” In a similar spirit, in 2004 he told BBC television, “Allah Almighty is just; through his infinite wisdom he has given the weak a weapon the strong do not have, and that is their ability to turn their bodies into bombs as Palestinians.”
        And in one of his many books (I forget which one it is, he has written 80) he devotes a large part of it to promoting suicide bombings against
        Israelis.

        • Augustus
        • ProffessorPlum

          “This from discoveringthenetworks.org (just one of many references):”

          The question was suicide bombings has he promoted.

          And as for your source; it amongst much other rubbish states this:

          “The British had promised the stateless Jewish Zionists that they could establish a “national home” in the large portion of what remained of the area, which was known as the Palestine Mandate.”

          Besides the fact that there were strict conditions to this ‘offer’, the zionists were not stateless. Weismann was a Russian and the zionist organization was made up of zionists from Britain, France, Germany Palestine – nearly all of whom voted to accept Uganda as a national home – America.

          I would suggest that your source has a somewhat biased agenda to pursue. However if you can come with the dtaes of the suicide bombings he is supposed to have endorsed………

          • Augustus

            It’s all over the web that ‘he promotes suicide bombings against Israelis’, and that is exactly what I said. Bad luck if you don’t like my source. And how am I supposed to know which specific bombings he has promoted?
            The violence that arises In Gaza and the West Bank is legitimized with religious and political arguments. Their idea is that the Zionists have stolen their wealth, and with it all the possibilities for social progress. They hate the Jews because the Jews are stronger. Please let Jews not exist, says their culture. Jews must at least be second-class people, after all, Jews are the descendants of apes and pigs says their culture. So it is intolerable that those Jews are stronger.

            • ProffessorPlum

              “And how am I supposed to know which specific bombings he has promoted? ”

              If you believe the statement that he promotes suicide bombings against Israel, then you should know which ones he promotes – or are you in the habit of believeing stuff from web sites that aren’t even able to write factually on the Balfour declaration?

              The truth Augustus, is that Hamas have pubicly stated that they have ended suicide bombing as a tatic and there hasn’t been a suicide bombing against Israel for years.

              “The violence that arises In Gaza and the West Bank is legitimized with religious and political arguments.”

              It is legitamized by international law that allows violence to be used against occupation.

              • Plum_is_an_idiot

                Which part of Gaza is occupied?

              • Drakken

                You keep quoting so called international law like it carries any weight, hint, it doesn’t.

    • hellosnackbar

      I fear that this articulate talented little soul will be the victim of murder in the near future.
      The basis of Islamic Ideology is that “dogma trumps common sense!”
      I hope he survives and becomes a leader within Egypt!

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