Coffee House

Commons committee worsens the Tories’ immigration headache

28 July 2013

28 July 2013

Yesterday saw a spate of articles about the government’s immigration van pilot scheme. And today the Public Administration Select Committee (PASC) damns immigration figures as a ‘blunt instrument’ and not ‘fit for purpose’. The nub of the problem is that the methodology is outdated, having been designed in a time when migration was in the 10,000s a year rather than the 100,000s. A sample size of 5,000 identified through the International Passenger Survey, which is drawn from UK ports and airports, is not sufficiently broad to construct accurate estimates. New methodology is required, PASC says. You can read the whole thing here.

This will – and should – raise further questions about border control, although the Home Office has moved to pre-empt such discussion by rejecting PASC’s assumptions.  However, the figures have re-opened the government’s efforts to reduce net migration. This is one of the Home Office’s success stories – and it has been cautiously welcomed by Sir Andrew Green of Migration Watch, who is not easily pleased. Mark Wallace at ConservativeHome, though, is less charitable. He says that PASC’s figures have proved him right: immigration figures are based on little more than guesswork. He adds, portentously, that if ‘real doubt can be cast on those claims then it would be politically disastrous’ in 2015. He goes on to mention uncontrolled EU migration and illegal immigration – the whole shebang.

Subscribe from £1 per week


His analysis is predicated on the view that high levels of immigration (or in the case of the EU, open labour markets) are necessarily destructive. The Tory leadership plainly shares that analysis to an extent or else it wouldn’t be trying to reduce net migration. There is, however, another view. Vince Cable has been all over the airwaves this morning denigrating the Tories for ‘obsessing about this net immigration figure.’ Ergo, immigration/open labour markets are good for the economy. He can call on the support of all manner of political and economic institutions.

Guns to the right of him, guns to the left of him – can David Cameron actually win the immigration argument when every success is undone by allegations of failure? He’s lucky, though, that Theresa May is one of his most effective and ambitious ministers, and she cannot surrender much ground on the best success of her ministerial career: reducing net migration.


More Spectator for less. Subscribe and receive 12 issues delivered for just £12, with full web and app access. Join us.

Show comments
  • Jackthesmilingblack

    You keep deleting my comments, Indie. So back to the BNP site.

    • Guest

      Well, **** off then!

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    My restrained contribution appears to have been accidently deleted. How fortunate I have a back up.
    Britisher pals, I can tell you’re more
    than a little disenchanted by mass immigration, aka multiculturalism, but lack
    the mass bottle to take it to the streets: So what are you`re
    options?
Obviously, hate it and leave it. As I did over 40 years ago. You surely
    realise that Britain’s an investment that’s gone south. Don’t keep hanging on
    hoping it will come back. It’s not going to happen. The sooner you bite the
    bullet and seek your fortune in the colonies the happier you’re going to feel
    about life and yourself.

    Jack, Japan Alps
 08.43. JST
    And Spectator, stop deleting my contributions. Who do you think you are, the Daily Telegraph? OK, as you were.

  • Jackthesmilingblack

    Britisher pals, I can tell you’re more than a little disenchanted by mass immigration, aka multiculturalism, but lack the mass bottle to take it to the streets: So what are you`re options?
    Obviously, hate it and leave it. As I did over 40 years ago. You surely realise that Britain`s an investment that`s gone south. Don`t keep hanging on hoping it will come back. It`s not going to happen. The sooner you bite the bullet and seek your fortune in the colonies the happier you`re going to feel about life and yourself.
    Jack, Japan Alps
    And Spectator, stop deleting my contributions. Who do you think you are, the Daily Telegraph? OK, as you were.

  • AtMyDeskToday

    “New technology needed.”

    That would be the same technology that Australia (for example) has been using for many years. If you don’t hold an Australian passport or immigrant’s visa then you are carefully recorded in and equally carefully recorded out. Overstay and you won’t get back in. Want to enter permanently? Only if you have wanted skills. Asylum seeker? Off to Papua New Guinea for you. Seems very simple. Question is, what’s holding us back? Buy the system and employ a few Australians on short term contracts to implement it.

  • thanksdellingpole

    Vote BNP to sort out immigration.

  • Wilhelm

    Our times resemble that of the Wiemar Republic, with the Left and Right ramming Multiculturalism, mass immigration, gay marriage, human rights etc etc, down our throats and then they have the cheek to tell us ” it’s a great benefit.” Patience is a virtue but patience is not limitless, our patience is being stretched to the limit.

    Sooner or later, the pendulum is going to swing the other way, it always does in history, cause and effect and I for one can not wait !

    • Wilhelm

      Correction, Weimar

      • Daniel Maris

        Correction, Third Reich…that’s when you had mass immigration (all that forced labour and Russian POWs) into the country and mass emigration as well – remember.

        • Wilhelm

          Eh ?

  • Daniel Maris

    I think these comments are pointing to a gathering crisis on the migration front. This issue is not going away and it is now affecting people in all those areas of their lives which are most important to them. They realise now that mass immigration is having an effect on their schools: that’s why there are all those temporary (actually permanent) huts in the primary playground. That’s why their children can’t find a reasonably secure and well paid job. That’s why their offspring can’t afford to buy property. That’s why their local maternity hospital is overcrowded.

    There is a political earthquake in the offing. Our political elite seem to be living in la-la land and are not tackling the issues directly – so the problems mount. And they are beginning to affect the middle classes now. Fewer children from a non-immigrant background are able to compete for those positions in medical school or study to become barristers. Middle class families now have to throw huge sums of money at their children in order to enable them to buy cramped accommodation.

    The Spectator should have been giving a lead on the need to stop mass immigration, to stop Sharia in this country and to promote serious integration policies. But it has done the opposite: too often making the soft arguments for immigration. It is only now that some doubts are surfacing. Fraser no longer babbles about how much he likes the name Mohammed being a popular name in this country – he’s actually drawing attention to the affects of mass immigration on retarding GDP per head growth…But one fears it is all far too late.

    • Simon Fay

      A major, major clear-out of the upper echelon embedded in Whitehall, Fleet Street etc is long overdue. Hearing Fraser Nelson pleading for mercy in all his tortured diction might be interesting.

  • anneallan

    NET migration.
    Two English doctors and their two children emigrate to Oz.
    A 3rd World farm labourer, married to his pregnant cousin, arrives with their two children (so far).

    • Shazza

      Soon to be followed by wives numbers two, three and four. Soon to be followed by their parents/aunts/uncles/siblings…….soon to be housed in Kensington as they don’t like Bradford. Soon to be paid for by you.

    • Austin Barry

      Yep, it’s very much a case of ‘Goodbye Jim, Hello Ahmed’.

    • Robert_Eve

      Spot on Anne.

    • Patricia

      “Two English doctors and their two children emigrate to Oz.
      A 3rd World farm labourer, married to his pregnant cousin, arrives with their two children (so far).”

      A fair swop ? I don’t think so.

  • Despairing

    Have just read India Knight in the Sunday Times castigating the “man with a
    van” trial. I despair for this country, I really do. How is it, this woman
    who is Belgian but has probably now got a LibLabCon UK joke passport is allowed
    a platform advocating the cause of illegal immigrants.

    When do I and millions like me get to voice our anger and outrage at the way our
    island has been ravaged and altered beyond recognition over the last 60 years
    by mass immigration? And in particular those massed waves since 1997. I read of
    people with South Asian names jailed for election fraud, I see a serving
    soldier struck down in a cowardly fashion and brutally murdered less than 10
    miles from the HoC by two so-called Britons – second generation immigrants from
    Nigeria, I read of young white working class girls violated and sexually abused by
    gangs of Pakistani and Somalians. I could go on.

    My father fought in WW2 and sustained life changing injuries at the age of 22, my
    grandfather fought in WW1 and lost an eye. Both would cry out in horror at what
    our masters have done to their country. I really do not care about the economy,
    I really do not care about the bankers – those things can be fixed. Such things
    are not permanent it might take 5 or 10 or 15 years but all such things
    are fixable.

    What I do care about is the permanent changes that immigration has wrought to my
    country. Please start to reverse those changes. Start with a policy of zero
    permanent immigration – if the country need skilled workers, then fine treat them
    as guest workers like many other countries do – once finished go home. Stop
    giving away my heritage and my children’s heritage by doling out passports as
    though they were cheap sweets.

    The blood and treasure my family has spent over generations serving this country does
    not make it’s experience unique, millions of others that inhabited these
    islands pre-1945 gave as much if not more but it does give us a moral right to
    ask Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrats – why have you done this to us?
    Why have you lied to us? Did you ask our permission, did you really ask our
    permission before permanently changing our home in the way you have done?

    • Shazza

      I fear it is too late. We have already lost. The womb is mightier than the sword.

      • Simon Fay

        It’s not over yet. Not by a long chalk. But forget about being “decent” and being welcome on ‘Start The Week’ for it to change.

        BTW Who is Fuck-face Cameron talking to and aiming his emphatic hand-gesture at in the photo above. And why is Old Man Murdoch posing as a baggage handler?

        • Shazza

          Simon, I would love to believe that you are right inasmuch as it is not over yet. However, what is to be done? Unfortunately, unless Ukip is voted for in overwhelming numbers, the result will be Red Ed and then the floodgates will really be opened. That will be the end of our so-called democracy and Labour, with their gerrymandering talents, will ensure that no Right or Centre Right party will ever be elected again. It is impossible for parties who do not fit the Lib/Lab/Con construct to have the ‘oxygen of publicity’ to present their case to the brainwashed public. Anybody willing publicly to put their heads above the parapet walls and tell the truth is accused of hate mongering. Look at Farage’s weasly politicking over the VanAds. Again, what is to be done?

          • Simon Fay

            Westminster and voting don’t come into it. You don’t write to your MP when there’s a burglar in your house, asking him to have him removed.

            • Shazza

              I do understand what you are saying. However, we are manacled.

              • Simon Fay

                Only manacled while we think we still have something to lose.

                Just found myself wondering if the East Germans used to talk like this. I recall watching with fascination as the Iron Curtain came down during 1989-90 – I don’t think the possibility occurred to me that it was being moved Westward.

    • Tom Tom

      Your father and grandfather fought in two world wars and you despair about what this country has become……reflect on 5 million German war dead to end up with 200,000 Turks living in Berlin and a US-born German female lawyer Anja Sturm losing her job and her home because she was asked to represent a Neo-Nazi woman who wanted a female lawyer for her trial in Munich……and the reason the lawyer lost her home and job, because the Berlin law firms were afraid of reprisals from Turks in Berlin if they kept her on staff.

      Even a fair trial with representation is no longer guaranteed in Germany

    • roger

      An excellent contribution. I couldn’t agree with you more

    • Patricia

      A heart-rending post, Despairing, and I couldn’t agree more. Cameron plays lip service to the argument against further immigration and then courts job seekers from India. Why is Park Lane still accommodating Roma thieves and beggars? We have been hog-tied long enough on this subject. Politicians must now start to listen – or else.

    • Airey Belvoir

      India Knight is living with a violent alcoholic disgraced MP. So much for her judgement.

    • Austin Barry

      Excellent post: plangent and melancholic, a lament for an England that is vanishing before our eyes.

      • Noa

        Hear hear!

    • Wilhelm

      ”My father fought in WW2 and sustained life changing injuries at the age of 22, my grandfather fought in WW1 and lost an eye. Both would cry out in horror at what our masters have done to their country.”

      Hmm, with hindsight, seems like the wrong side won, doesn’t it ?

      • Daniel Maris

        There, you’ve come out and said it…finally…after keeping up the pretence for so long.

        • Wilhelm

          Err, um, it’s called a joke, lighten up.

    • Smithersjones2013

      but it does give us a moral right to
      ask Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrats – why have you done this to us

      If give us a moral right to do a damn site more than ask about their squalid little intrigues and self-serving games…..

    • johnslattery

      “Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrats – why have you done this to us?”–Because the British people vote for them. Everything that you describe has happened with the endorsement of 80% of the British electorate. Don’t blame the politicians for the stupidity, complacency and sheer cowardice of the average voter.

  • The_greyhound

    Immigration isn’t actually a difficult issue .

    So far we have clearly established that mass immigration is a cultural, economic and social catastrophe. We already have two and half millions (at the very lowest estimate) here without employment. So we stand in need of no immigrants whatsoever, now, or at any time in the future.

    Nothing difficult to understand, and nothing difficult to manage. Even a politician could do it. Except our monkeys of course.

    • Simon Fay

      You presume that what we the livestock deem to be a catastrophe is similarly regarded by those the farmer sells us to. If the ongoing immigration thing was deemed to be a bad thing by the likes of the Bilderbergers it would have been stopped dead long ago.

    • Fergus Pickering

      No immigrants whatsoever? Oh come. If they are reasonbly rich, white, Christian and English speaking I would have thought they are quite welcome. We could dumpsome of the underclass in Africa in exchange. I haven’t worked out the ins and outs of this but it sounds promising, wouldn’t you say?.

      • The_greyhound

        I shouldn’t object to the first too vigorously, provided they didn’t have loud colonial accents, which can be quite annoying. The export of the underclass would depend on whether they were ours (in which case not) or merely resident foreigners, which would be fine. However unappetising they now are, we still have a responsibility to our own underclass, who to a large extent have been deliberately degraded and debased by cultural marxists.

        • Fergus Pickering

          Come sir, colonial accents are soothing. What is horrid is the upper-middle bray used by our rulers. I except Boris. His accent is a work of art.

          • The_greyhound

            No, I should insist that colonials wore muzzles in public, until they learned to talk proper, or at least like Boris.

  • Ron Todd

    Neither Labour or Conservative would want to know the true numbers. If they did they would either have to tell us the truth then we would all go and vote for UKIP, or they would lie and inevitably get caught lying and we would all go and vote UKIP. If the numbers were lower than expected (unlikely but possible) we would assume they were lying and go and vote UKIP.

  • Simon Fay

    I was going to say something but realised it’d be like someone in SE England circa 1944 wondering aloud about the sign-off process for each V2’s guidance system and marvelling at Werner Braun’s non-reply to my indignant letters.

  • Austin Barry

    Drive around London for a day, from Harrow down through Brent, across to South London, then back across the river through Newham and straight across to Southall.

    Everything you need to know about the real immigration figures will be revealed. And that’s only visible immigration.

    Lynton Crosby will have his job cut out to convince voters that UKIP, now wisely dormant and simply letting Tory panic garner it votes, does not represent, er, hope and change.

    • HookesLaw

      You can see the same in Bradford Bolton and other places.
      How many were born in Britain?
      Interesting that you judge people by their colour. That’s racism isn’t it? why are you convinced these people are evil?

      Its also hilarious that you are terrified of Crosby – you have more in common with labour than you might think.
      ‘wisely dormant’ oh so feeble.

      • Austin Barry

        Not racist, just pointing out that in addition to visible immigration there is invisible immigration. Together the figures are enormous.

      • Tom Tom

        So what did you see in Bradford Hooke ? When were you in Bradford ? Which parts of Bradford ? What do you know about Bradford ? I guess very little

      • Daniel Maris

        Not just colour – don’t you notice all the Polska shops, the South African shop signs, Halal signs, the niche newspapers in the supermarket for different immigrant communities – Romanian, Brazilian etc…

        • Wilhelm

          Maris

          I don’t think we’re worried about the Polish, it’s the other ones, you know, the ones you salivate over.

          • Daniel Maris

            Tell them that in Boston then.

        • Shazza

          Daniel, it is only one group that refuses to integrate into British society. Remind me the last time you saw Polish/South African/Brazilian demanding that the host country acquiesce to their demands? Are you, against your wishes, being deliberately force fed Polish/SA etc. food as in Halal? If anybody insults Mandela, I don’t see hordes of SA expats rioting in the streets???????

          • Daniel Maris

            When discussing immigration there are a number of factors we have to look at: population pressure, religion and cultural practice, economics and race among them. Not everyone is as relaxed as you about the takeover of some towns by Poles and other East Europeans. A friend of mine gets particularly upset about South Africans taking over his local park for mass rubgy games and barbecue parties…South Africans are certainly adding to population pressure in parts of London – they seem to be a very fertile bunch.

            However, I have always been clear that the key concern has to be the promotion of Sharia in this country which is deadly to democracy and a free society.

            • Wilhelm

              Maris” A friend of mine gets particularly upset about South Africans taking
              over his local park for mass rugby games and barbecue parties.”

              ”A friend of mine,”are you really talking about yourself ?

              • Daniel Maris

                No. But I don’t disagree with his point…a public park should be for everyone, not an assault course through rugby melees and burning fires.

            • Wilhelm

              Maris”they seem to be a very fertile bunch.”

              I agree, Africans pop out babies like biscuits in a biscuit factory, it’s the only thing they’re good at. The population of Africa is 800 Million, by 2050 it will rise to 2 Billion.

            • Patricia

              “…South Africans are certainly adding to population pressure in parts of London – they seem to be a very fertile bunch.”

              Why are we now taking in South Africans ?

  • HookesLaw

    200 million people enter and leave the UK each year.
    Is anyone on this committee volunteering to interview them.

    Perhaps the usual suspect would like to solve the problem with identity cards and a database to infringe our personal rights. As it is eborders system is probably costing too much and is late and who knows if it will work. more IT – is that what we need?

    • Denis_Cooper

      I think the suggestion is merely that they should be identified and counted when they enter and leave, for which a valid passport should normally be sufficient, not that every one of them should be interviewed.

      • perdix

        Interviews are important. Is the migrant worker leaving the UK to return home permanently or just for a holiday?

        • Denis_Cooper

          That’s not much of an interview, just a single more or less routine question.

        • Tom Tom

          If he is non-EU he can reclaim his National Insurance contributions so that is a clear sign

    • Colonel Mustard

      Do you think people are blind and cannot see what has happened here? Just because they are legislated and intimidated into glowering silence about it and bombarded with propaganda and dodgy statistics day in and day out.

      • Shazza

        Unfortunately Colonel, we here who post comments are fully aware of what has and is happening to this once great country. However, the vast brainwashed, Marxist indoctrinated majority of the population are either blind or probably have the ‘can’t be arsed’ attitude. Read the comments posted in the Sun, Mail, Mirror and weep. As Despairing so eloquently states the economy/finances can and will be fixed. Time, effort and hardwork will sort that out. But this invasion will only bring a reaction when it starts to impact on the BBC/Guardianista set. Note how quickly the Roma were moved from Park Lane (happily they did not take too long to return).

        • dalai guevara

          Aha, so WE CAN -after all the hype, the scaremongering, the waffle- without much ado move the Roma, just like the French did two years ago? Quelle surprise!

          So what happened to the ramblings that the EU and ECHR were supposedly stopping us? Encore plus de propagande, n’est pas?

          • Shazza

            For Park Lane, of course . For the rest of us, tough.

            • dalai guevara

              Ah right, I get it – it ought to be about Baby Cambridge brought up in Wales (who makes up these hilarious titles?) not bumping into Roma at his local Aldi.
              Must remind the Isle of Anglesey County Council not to send them back to Rome, that would be an unforgivable gaffe.

    • Tom Tom

      You should look at those electronic e-passport barriers at the airports. it is very easy since EACH passport is viewed by a Border Control (Customs) Officer to know where they are coming from…….maybe the NSA can fund a computer to sort the data

    • Tom Tom
  • Denis_Cooper

    “His analysis is predicated on the view that high levels of immigration (or in the case of the EU, open labour markets) are necessarily destructive.”

    1. It is down to the advocates of mass immigration to prove that it is not destructive but instead offers significant benefits to the established population, most specifically the established body of citizens who are supposed to be controlling what happens in this so-called democracy.

    2. If they thought they could do that and so convince the established body of citizens, the electorate, of their case, then they would have no fear of consulting those citizens directly in a referendum.

    Or do you dispute our right to both possess and control our own country?

    • tele_machus

      On mass immigration

      Those who do not believe it are historically illiterate.

      Our great triumphs as a nation have come on the back of immigration.

      We were little englanders covered with woad before the Anglo Saxons who gave us the language that conquered the world.

      The Administration that formed the basis of our great empire came from the developments after the invasion of the Viking French.

      This new wave is bringing energy and ideas for our conquest of the European ideal to allow again domination of the world through a new vehicle.

      • fantasy_island

        You can only judge this in terms of current life experience, if people feel that their own community is changing for the worse, year on year, then what opinion would you expect to form the majority?

        Doesn’t really matter what happened beyond say 80 years ago.

        • tele_machus

          Yes it does matter
          We learn and build on our history
          I am immensely proud of the genetic and cultural influences from our past and see the benefit of these occurring over again

          • fantasy_island

            How can you be proud of something that you didn’t experience and played no part in.

            Same applies to guilt.

            • tele_machus

              Are you not proud of your parents?

              • fantasy_island

                But I did, and still do, experience my parents values and achievements. So yes.

              • Fergus Pickering

                No I am not. I love them which is quite a different thing. Ditto my children. Proud of this, proud of that, what nonsense.

          • Denis_Cooper

            You do realise that a lot of blood was shed during that process over centuries, in fact many centuries? So where is the benefit in that occurring over again?

      • Austin Barry

        “This new wave is bringing energy and ideas for our conquest of the European ideal to allow again domination of the world through a new vehicle”.

        Unhappily, the new vehicle is likely to be Islam.

        • tele_machus

          If that is the way it is so be it.

          What is correct and right will prevail

          • Simon Fay

            “What is correct will be right”

            I presume your denomination is Zen Idiot judging from this gnomic utterance.

            • tele_machus

              There are historic inevitabilities that cannot be denied

              • Austin Barry

                Tele

                Do you get these banalities from a Christmas cracker?

                Your posts are becoming a byword in lunacy.

                • Daniel Maris

                  I think that’s unfair to the Mandarin-English translator in the Beijing Cracker factory. At least he makes an effort.

              • Simon Fay

                “There are historic inevitabilities that cannot be denied”

                Market forces must be allowed to triumph, eh? Or was Karl Marx a secret Mussie?

              • Hexhamgeezer

                Like you hanging from a lampost

          • Fergus Pickering

            Or might is right as Thomas Carlyle so succinctly said. I suggest we make it so by repatriating by force those foreign elements me do not want. Gypsies would be a good start, idle, criminal, bloodsucking leeches etc etc. What do you say, Tele?

      • Shazza

        Telly – your knowledge of history sucks. It was the Romans (for my sins I read the original in Latin) who mocked us for being painted in woad. As for the rest, just your usual bilge.

        • tele_machus

          I know

          I telescoped for brevity and effect

          Yes Claudius started the mass immigration and for that I applaud him

          • Denis_Cooper

            Apparently there is little genetic trace of the Roman occupation, but that is really beside the point.

            • tele_machus

              This is a fantasy like holocaust denial

              • telemackus

                The tories have no idea how to hide the immigration figures. As Tessa Jowell said on Sky last night, immigrants are net contributors to our economy and labour had it all under control and were removing all immigrants when they were usurped by the illegal coalition.

        • telemachus associates

          Them as caused moderation of the pearls leading to this thread are clearly not libertarian folk

          • telemackus

            Stop pretending to be me.

      • Colonel Mustard

        Have another rest. We know what you think.

        • tele_machus

          We say

          And we repeat

          And say

          And repeat

          That is how we get our message through

          • Noa

            I once had a similar simple input output device at home-a cat.
            I fed it milk and Go Cat. From this it extracted the nurishment it needed and then execreted the waste on my roses. It provided valuable companionship for the family and undertook misscellaneous rodent disposal services.

            Your posts invariably remind me of those deposits on my roses.

          • Colonel Mustard

            But the message you get through is the precise opposite of what you intend. Because it reveals the inane mindset of your barmy political ideology for all to see. The country is getting tired of it and you.

          • Smithersjones2013

            And you go on and on and on and on and nobody takes a blind bit of notice of what ever crud you are spewing at anytime.

          • Hexhamgeezer

            .and the joke has worn thin young enterobius

      • The_greyhound

        You are historically illiterate. The “mongrel nation” thing was a bare-faced lie, and is not credited by any serious historian : it’s a piece of nonsense kept alive by malicious multiculti liars.

        The rest of your posting is counter-factual balderdash.

        Britons are Britons, the descendants of the people who first farmed these islands, speaking a related group of northern European dialects. And foreigners remain foreign, a vast burden on our society.

        • ButcombeMan

          Humbug. So called “serious historians” know nothing of genetics then. They need to consider the vast expansion of population in the last 2000 years and the consequent spreading of the seed of just one-stay over, Roman sponsored (but not necessarily Roman), immigrant. Technically of course many of us do have some of the genes of “Britons” but most of us have a whole lot of other things in the mix as well. Have the test yourself, it is astonishing and enlightening. Mongrels most of us are and none the worse for it. .

          • The_greyhound

            You may be a mongrel. The overwhelming majority of white Britons are not. It is you that is clearly ignorant of the genetic make-up of Britain. The idiot melting pot hypothesis (always suspect) collapsed under the weight of contrary evidence years ago.

            The small numbers of settlers from other parts of the North Sea region did not affect the basic racial composition of Britain, going back into the late neolithic, and it would in any event be difficult to distinguish people of such similar origin..

            On other hand the uncontrolled arrival of vast numbers of people of deeply alien origin, and inferior culture is a modern one, has a generated a mountainous burden on our society.

            • ButcombeMan

              I suggest you do a little mathematics working backwards against the estimated population figures for the UK. You would not have to go back very far to share an ancestor or three with me or any other so called British “mongrel” whose lines have been here several hundred years. The fact that there is some ancient Briton in a lot of us is obvious but there are lots of other things.
              I think your personal issues show in your “inferior culture” remark. Nasty stuff.
              Maybe you could tell us what defines an “inferior culture” in the dark corners of your mind. But perhaps better not. Keep it there, under the stone.

              • The_greyhound

                Stereotypical nonsense.

                The British population grew because we achieved a technological advantage, in the mercantilist era, then in the agrarian revolution, then in the industrial revolution, which enabled us to sustain a prolonged population increase. if you did not know that I do not understand why you thought yourself informed enough to offer an opinion on British history.

                And since you have made a personal attack upon me (you could scarcely make an intellectual one) I must respond. Your personal issues show all over the place. You do not seem to be aware of the facts, you are annoyed when others disclose them, and you seem to entertain the weird notion that something gives you the right to censor the conversation. These are sure indications of an authoritarian and delusionally disordered personality. If you cannot understand the immense gulf between western civilisation and culture and that of Africa or Asia, then you are extremely ill-informed, or maliciously ignorant.

                Probably best therefore to stay under your own stone.

                • ButcombeMan

                  Oh Dear.
                  Your ideas of racial purity and imagined racial & cultural superiority under threat are they?
                  It matters not why the UK population has exploded in the last 2000 years or so, the mathematics are clear. Most of the white British population who have had one or both family lines resident in the UK for several hundred years, at some point, share a common ancestor or more. It is just very simple 11 year old mathematics. There are just not enough ancestors to go round otherwise. Yes your ancient Britons are in there but you are most likely contaminated by inferior races somehwere along the line. Get over it.

                • The_greyhound

                  Oh dear.

                  Your complete ignorance of the subject, and your fanatical dogmatic determination to keep posting your ignorant balderdash is parallelled only by your dimwitted attempts to be offensive.

                  If it doesn’t matter why the UK population expanded, why did you post on the subject, a subject of which you now admit you know nothing?

                  Only because you are afraid that another of your pointless lies have been dismissed. And of course having dismissed the cretinous perversion of the truth that is ‘mongrel nation’ tripe, you are left blustering to explain or justify the chaotic mistakes of modern times. I can see that you really are struggling, little man.

  • Alexsandr

    we need to tell HMG loud and clear we are not interested in net migration. The numbers we need is just the raw immigration figures. i,e how many foreigners are coming here.

    • Denis_Cooper

      Correct.

    • HookesLaw

      As opposed to how many UK citizens are returning? How many are temporary students?
      Why do you not seem to want to know how many foreigners (horrible nasty people) are leaving?

      The figures of course are readily available – look at the ONS.

      • Denis_Cooper

        Look, why don’t you just come out and tell the simple truth – that you don’t want any attempts at controlling immigration because you really want uncontrolled, unlimited immigration.

        Like your idol Cameron, except that he is constrained to pretend otherwise.

    • Noa

      The problem is that current immigrant data has been collected on a deliberately misrepresented basis and almost certainly cannot be effectively updated.
      Therefore only future immigrant information coulld be collected-and that would not be necessary if a 5 or 10 year moratorium, as desirable as it is unlikely, weas imposed on all immigration.

      What the government does know, but will not tell us no matter how often we ask it to, is what the real cost of immigration is.

    • Daniel Maris

      Agreed.

  • stanedeid

    You cannot trust this government on its management of statistics,whether it’s immigration figures,or OBR figures in the independence debate.
    Is this Mr Crosby’s doing?

    Westminster is fundamentally untrustworthy.

    • Lady Magdalene

      So is Whitehall.

  • Noa

    “Guns to the right of him, guns to the left of him – can David Cameron
    actually win the immigration argument when every success is undone by
    allegations of failure?”

    Janus-like, Mr Cameron can win any debate with any audience, for, more than any other Prime Minister in living memory, he is willing to tell them what they want to hear and not what they need to.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9868821/Immigration-David-Cameron-urges-Indians-to-come-to-welcoming-Britain.html

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2375671/Immigration-constant-drain-public-services-says-David-Cameron.html

  • Noa

    An example from the North of England.
    Is this charity, or propaganda?

    http://blogpreston.co.uk/2013/07/curry-kitchen-prestons-muslim-community-to-feed-the-homeless-on-flag-market/

    Would the problem of homelessness even exist if mass immigration had not been quietly encouraged by every government for the last sixty years, until Labour opened the floodgates in 2000?

    • Shazza

      It beggars belief that Labour, when embarking on their population replacement programme, failed (or did not care) to foresee the pressure that would be placed on all services, NHS, schools, housing, etc. There are far, far more people on this overcrowded island that the census leads us to believe. Look around you – everything is under strain; the destruction deliberately wrought by these traitors is self-evident. In 1997, were the roads in such a disgraceful condition? Everywhere is gridlock. I lived in a large Midlands city and when we moved there 15 years ago, black and Asian faces were to be seen but we felt we were still in an English city. Now there are parts where whites are in the minority. Veiled and burkad forms pushing prams dominate – frightening to see how in such a short space of time a large city can be transformed. According to stats from supermarkets, water and sewage companies the population is more like 75million plus. The Independant ran an article a few years ago about the size of the population, perhaps someone could provide a link?

      • Noa

        No other book has, for me, so far captured quite so well the distopian future which awiats us than Danny Lockwood’s “The Islamic Republic of Dewsbury”, reviewed here it should nevertheless be read by everyone who wishes to understand the impact of mass immigration on the North of England and, by implication, the UK.

        http://www.newenglishreview.org/Esmerelda_Weatherwax/The_Islamic_Republic_of_Dewsbury_-_Danny_Lockwood/

        • Austin Barry

          Dewsbury? And they say that Islam is not noted for its irony or humour.

        • Daniel Maris

          Very instructive! Thanks.

      • Jupiter

        Here it is. It was written in 2007, so add another few million onto the population

        http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/city-eye-facts-on-a-plate-our-population-is-at-least-77-million-395428.html

        • Shazza

          Thank you Jupiter!

      • Daniel Maris

        I don’t believe the 75 million figure. We know to a reasonable degree how many dwellings there are in the country and to a reasonable degree the levels of occupancy. I wouldn’t be surprised if there 2-3 million more than the official figures but I would say there were another 12 million.

        The author has his own agenda – he likes immigration:

        “But that’s what made America great in the 19th century, and it’s a driving force of our economy right now.” (as if America with its vast resources huge land area can be compared with 21st century UK).

    • fantasy_island

      I daren’t read the book, my blood pressure became critical simply reading the link.

Close
Can't find your Web ID? Click here